There is no Diversity in DBD now, here's how we fix it
introduction
Hey, today we'll be talking about the many issues that plague DBD! Nah, just kidding... Today we're going to talk about the issues with diversity in DBD at the moment.
I've noticed a lot while playing a bunch of Survivor again that the diversity is... lacking... it doesn't really exist tbh. Either it's Freddy with the strongest add-ons and Dream Snares... or it's... spirit.
I barely see Nurse anymore after her nerf... and it's kind of sad that some Killers only follow the strongest Killer trend... it's quite boring for Survivors to face every day, and i'm sure it's boring for the Killers as well.
I'm going to touch up on some topics in this post and give some suggestions on how to fix these growing issues!
a small disclaimer
Please don't attack me in the comments below because i'm mentioning Spirit in this post. Yes, i'm VERY AWARE that she's being nerfed, we don't need to flood the comments about that. This isn't a Spirit post, if it was the title would be "Why Spirit is killing the diversity" or something like that. Thank you!
first, lets talk about why spirit is the most used killer
This one is kind of a no brainer... but let's go over it anyways. In a sense, Spirit is one of the strongest Killers now after taking over Nurses throne. Once Nurses era ended, Spirit became the most common Killer to face in high ranks.
But now... even the low ranks are starting to follow this trend. I'm all for "It's your Killer so do as you please" but we shouldn't all main a Killer because they're the strongest. Yes, a lot of the maps suffer from Survivor sided issues and vise versa with some Killer maps with Survivors... but we shouldn't write off every other Killer because they're mid or low tier.
Anyways, Spirit is the most used due to her ability to ignore most if not all loops during a chase, similar to Nurse but to a lesser degree when it comes to a bigger loop AND when it comes to seeing the Survivors. Unlike Nurse, Spirit can't see Survivors during her phase walk like Nurse can with her blinks.
But because of Nurse's nerfs, she's technically below Spirit now in terms of "practicality" in a match. This is why she's the most used Killer... because of how Spirit can counter a lot of loops, her versatility, and other such things... she's quite strong against most if not all Survivor teams.
While a good coordinated team can hold their own against her (depending on the Spirits skill) most casual or moderate teams can't do so well... especially if you're solo and your teammates decide to DC on you... but that's another issue that she tends to cause.
the draw backs to having only a few viable killers at high level play
While yes, if we're talking with perks and add-ons... than Freddy, Billy, and even Demogorgon can be also considered "Top-Tier." But again, despite every killer being viable with enough skill and forward thinking in a match... they all come short when we compare them all in base-kit.
Billy is a good example, he's a PILLAR of balance if we're talking about THE most balanced Killers in the game... Billy is strong, versatility, and has massive map pressure and mobility. What makes him more balanced than Spirit though is that he has weaknesses. Yes, Spirit is being nerfed to help with this issue but let's step back from this for a moment.
You have Spirit who's being nerfed to be a bit more balanced, you have Billy who's quite balanced and has plenty of counter-play, we have Freddy that is fairly strong on his own with just dream Snares... but suffers from what most M1 Killers have... which is his looping potential and what not, and that's about it.
While Freddy can be considered very good, he still has his flaws due to him suffering from what most if not all M1 Killers are plagued by... which is their ability to handle loops... but that's another topic.
So we have Freddy, Billy, and Spirit... that's it. If we're talking base-kit, those are probably the only 3 that can hold their own for the most part. You can argue Demogorgon can also do the same, but if we look at his pounces distance, how slow he is when using it around loops (depends on the loops length), the basic concept that he's still an M1 Killer... and he's a solid 4th on this list of "viable Killers."
But again, any Killer can be viable with enough skill... BUT ALSO, if we peel back the perks, and the add-ons, and just go full base-kit... than you can probably guess who's on top.
We can all agree that Nurse is actually fun to use now because of her nerf (depends who you're as a person and your concept of... "fun" is...) but we can also agree that her nerf isn't really... "noob friendly" is it? Like think about it, if you were a pro with Nurse... you could probably get around the nerf a bit... but if you have never trained with Nurse or we semi-decent with her... than you'll struggle heavily from this draw back.
It's hard enough to get Nurse down in Pre-Nerf... now it's a lot harder... nerfing something to be more balanced isn't always the answer when it comes to top level Killers of course... which is why we'll talk about this more in a bit.
nerfing the best is nice and all... but what about the rest?
This part might be slow, but it's important to add in. Nerfing Spirit and Nurse isn't exactly the answer to the diversity in DBD... you need to also look into other Kilers as well, Killers that're weaker and less used because of their issues with the current map design or just struggling with map pressure in-general...
If we're talking base-kit, which most people do, we can see that Killers with powers that don't offer mobility or secondary downing mechanics are quite weak... If the Killer relies on the M1 to get the Kill... they're most likely going to do poorly in the tier list. Unless however, that power offers a slow down mechanic AS WELL as mobility like Freddy... this is why Clown struggles in-game... his tonic doesn't match up to Freddy's "slow down mechanic" and the toxins usually end WAY TOO FAST! Also, he can't teleport to generators like Freddy... And Freddy can even switch between dream snares to dream pallets with an add-on... but he's the stronger of the two as his base-kit, so that doesn't matter.
To put it short, what i'm getting at here is you shouldn't JUST nerf the top tier Killers... we need something else... like...
why improving the low tiers gives more diversity
Now here's the main point of this entire post... If we BHVR were to improve the lower tiers gradually after the implementation of Spirits nerf... than we would see a slow yet more active increase to the diversity of Killers that we see in-game.
Instead of seeing Spirit every few matches or in a row... we could see the Pig for once at Red Ranks... or LeatherFace outside of the basement... or Trapper or what have you! We'd see more use of these Killers rather than only seeing Spirit and Freddy for the most part being used...
The issue with having Killers that have little to no counter-play is that we see them used more often due to THAT EXACT ISSUE! While yes, I agree Freddy deserves his time in the sun, his Dream Snares really don't give any counter play to them when you're in the dream world... unless you're starting from a fresh timer in a chase with Freddy, than you won't do well in the dream state at all... it's as if you can't even loop him since dream snares will make that not possible.
The argument about his dream snares could string for paragraphs, but let's ignore this (hopefully) and address the point i'm making.
Anyways, the same can be said for Spirit, it's good she's being nerfed to give more counter-play... but nerfing her isn't enough. If we were to buff the other killers below her than we could see a lot less Spirits and even DCs and toxic behavior from Spirit mains...
It would be a change of pace for sure! Now, this is how you'd fix it... but what you'd do for each Killer could span essays long with different posts, so let's not follow up on specifics.
The point is, buffing Killers that're hardly ever used anymore in high ranks or even low sometimes would improve the overall diversity and health of the game for sure... you could improve all the maps to be more balanced for both sides and be more practical, improve their powers to aid with their weaknesses, even out the plain fields between Killers, edit their add-ons to improve their weaknesses, etc.
The little things help, they really do.
WAY TOO long didn't read at all (tl;dr)
I'm just going to add the main point here to save reading space and time writing it.
The main point is, if we were to buff the lower tiered Killers while being reasonable with the nerfs like Spirit is getting... than we can overall improve the diversity and health of the game as a whole. You could do this through base-kit changes, add-on changes, map changes to aid M1 Killers, reasonable nerfs to the strongest Killers (Like they're doing with Spirit... you can argue the Nurse one was too much), etc.
While yes, it's good that Spirit is finally getting counter-play... it's not really enough to stop people from playing her ALL THE TIME. More needs to be done for sure for the lower tiers. It's got to a point where even the low ranks are starting to main her, and that's... not good.
What will be left if everyone is a Spirit main? Who will play Pig, LeatherFace (Outside of basement), Demogorgon, Billy, etc.
Having unfair mechanics that don't have any downsides like Dream Snares or Spirits power is a good step to change... not nerf into the ground but change a bit... but we also need to buff Killers that're below them as well.
by the way
If you comment about Freddys Dream Snares having 1000 reasons to counter-play than you're missing the point... that wasn't why I made this post. You can comment it, but it's not what i'm getting at here.
I felt like I should say that... I just want people to be on the same page with what we're talking about, since sometimes people don't do that lol... idk... do as you please.
Comments
I know you said this isn't a spirit post but I don't get how people can't counter spirit, she is super easy to, I get you said about teams but I mean literally, loops are even easier, just not in the normal way, and listen carefully, you'll hear her moving away in phase, vault to the other side slowly and bang you just wasted her time, up to her if she wants to try again or just destroy the pallet or try the same but come back, if that is used, listen to if she is and you'll just be there unmoved, and waste more time, when she breaks the pallet, run away, if she isn't moving anymore, stop running and walk backwards, and watch where you were running from, as soon as she reappears, run, other than those minor changes to your movement, the rest is just the same as any other killer, all you need to do is hope she doesn't use blood tracking add ons, then you have to make sure you never get hit and we are humans, it happens, that's when her ability is unbeatable, that's the only OP thing on her
I experience more diversity in opponent playing survivor than killer.
Yesterday I saw 2 ghost faces (who is incredibly popular atm) a spirit, a wraith, 2 trappers and a freddy. They were varying levels of skill and played the game in markedly different ways (the spirit was the only one camping which seems... Redundant to say least).
On the killer side I saw the same survivor build with a different character skin in every game: dead hard, decisive strike, borrowed time and adrenaline. I also got to run in circles a whole bunch when I tried playing wraith for fun. I suppose a couple of heroic souls tried to spice up gameplay by DCing after being downed for the first time, but otherwise I have to say all the survivors I come across play in the exact same way.
I'm truly baffled by the complaints regarding how boring it can be to play survivor against the same stuff all the time when killers get even less variation from game to game.
you're so funny.
QUOTE
>>his isn't a Spirit post, if it was the title would be "Why Spirit is killing the diversity" or something like that. Thank you!<<
FIRST, LETS TALK ABOUT WHY SPIRIT IS THE MOST USED KILLER
QUOTE ENDED
then you proceed to talk a whole paragraph about spirit. 😂😂
Lets talk about why rank 1 killer diversity sucks.
Killers with instant downs preform poorly in the emblem system.
Killers that have long chases preform poorly in the emblem system.
Who is left? Spirit, nurse, freddy, legion. One of these requires a lot of time practicing blinks. And one of these was a garbage killer and unfun to play even before his mending, pallet vaulting and runspeed was nerfed.
And thats why you see a lot of rank 1 Spirit and Freddy players.
They aren't that much better than other killers. They just aren't garbage, and the emblem system doesnt punish them unfairly.
This actually made me think of a recent video I looked at: https://youtu.be/mXezFRaSvvE I absolutely think this guy has great ideas its a shame he does not have more followers. He basically changes one thing about all the killers.
If they buffed the lower tiers than we wouldn't need such viability... since a lot more Killers will be more viable.
Not every Red Rank match is a SWFs or coordinated team... it doesn't help that most Killers main Spirit... which already has little counter-play.
I don't know about aura reading, that sounds absurd...
She can effectively ignore almost every loop as well as apply massive map pressure and has great mobility on any map as well...
To say she isn't strong is looking at it the wrong way, she is strong... to casual and decent players... If you know how to face her and do it quite often than you'll probably have less of a hard time. If the Spirit is a pro than you'll probably meet the same fate.
It all depends on skill to determine how a chase will go, if the spirit is decent it'll be more bearable. If it's a pro Spirit with little to no room for error than you'll get destroyed.
You could just say "git gud" but than that wouldn't address the other issues she poses. The constant DCing from teammates, the hard reading and no downsides to her power, the ability to track you through collision and breathing, etc... While yes this stuff is getting nerfed, you can see why it SHOULD be nerfed in the first place.
Anyways, this isn't a Spirit post so who cares about her, that wasn't the main point about the post anyways.
ikr you have a good point, crouching and pointing isnt offensive tbh, like as toxic as this community is supposed to be ive never teabagged and ive only had a teabagger like twice, it's actually not that bad, but when i watch truetalent he gets so pissed, maybe its a red ranks thing come to think of it thnaks for making me tink
If you play against spirit 3 times in a row... than the game will get dull fast. As the Killer, it's your job to give the Survivors the challenge they're looking for.
Playing Spirit every game while these Survivors have seen 10 of them in one day... can old real fast. The only reason Killers get more diversity in terms of what Survivors they face... is due to their skill sets and skill in-general.
If you face say... 5 teams of potatoes in a row than things will get dull and you'll be bored. I can't say I haven't been bored by this as well... but when you get that SWF or coordinated team, than things get REALLY good.
Of course people like the opposite, but that's why everyone is different. It honestly boils down to you as a person and what you enjoy as the Killer or Survivor.
If I didn't mention Spirit than someone else would chime in about it.
I wanted to get everything out of the way before getting to the main point of the post. So yes, this isn't a Spirit post... if it was than i'd be talking about why Spirit is unfun and why her mechanics are considered to be dreadful to face.
But this isn't a spirit post like I said so... I put it as an example but I'm not making the entire post about Spirit. If we didn't mention spirit in this post than the post would be missing a big chunk of what it's getting at.
I don't think that's the whole reason, people like to hide behind the facade of "She's the only viable Killer in Red Ranks so I HAVE to play her." but I think it's honestly because she's just the top Killer that has little to no downside... kind of like another Killer that was nerfed... hmmm.
It's the same with Freddy, their powers offer little to no downside in most chases and allow them to be versatile around the entire field of the map. A pretty well rounded power that doesn't really offer that many downsides in the base-kit... with add-ons it's even stronger and debatable stronger than Spirit.
But, that's why they should buff the low tier Killers... than what you said could have a solution to it...
Idk, I play at Red Rank Killer and Survivor and It happens to me sometimes as Killer, and I also see it as a Survivor as well.
I guess people know that it's supposed to be insulting, which is why people get angry about it. But if you peel back the reality of what's happening... all they're doing is pointing and crouching rapidly, it's not like they're actively insulting you through a mic because there is NO MIC.
It only angers us because of the "reputation" behind it... otherwise nobody would care. That's kind of why I don't care when it happens, cause why should I?
Wait a minute.. his snares are worthless if you are not in dream..
So i guess not falling asleep is a counterplay
She can effectively ignore the normal loops, but she has a different kind of loop that literally involves vaulting and no walking or running or crouching just vaulting....pallets, anything else won't work, for new players, any killer is the worst thing ever "plz nrf" whereas people who played longer can bully pretty much any killer if done right, spirit best chance is to destroy pallets or increase passive phase and trick people, that's about it, but with a bit of time with that, even that won't help, killers are quick to learn, what do they do, do it, survivors take a bit more, what does the killer do, who is the killer, how do we abuse the killer ability, how do I gen rush into a 4 minute game? Once you learn that, several times with each killer, then it doesn't matter the killer, GG 2 EZ
Okay. You already stated that some of these killers are foundationally weak. As in their abilities just are not great. So buffing does not work, that is like polishing a turd.
They should probably focus on giving each killers unique identities, and kits, which would require reworks. And balancing them on a case by case scenarios. No matter what you do theres always gonna be top tier "picks" don't matter which game. The point is to give people the opportunity to play other heroes past that and to make them feel competitive. Tryhards are always gonna play what's most broken this patch and gets easiest wins. The problem might not be as much as Killers tiers, but the huge difference between premades, and none-premades and the DbD devs having no control over it. Which makes Spirit competitive vs premades, but stumpy vs non, hence the nerfs.
Kinda hard when if he hits you you'll be put into it automatically...
And there is a default timer to put you in it regardless...
Lol their initial idea was to make kindred base kit..
Easier said than done, every match is unpredictable.
That isn't really too OP... I thought it was gonna be something like see the Killers aura or something.
Base-kit Kindred isn't really that game breaking. But i'm sure they'll either not do that, do it, or think of something else.
Buffing, reworking, depends on the Killers power honestly.
Not every Killers power needs to be reworked to become viable... some of them just need to be buffed.
Of course there will always be a top-tier pick, if you broaden one's horizon with the lower tiers than we can get somewhere. You also don't need to really buff them to improve the viability... map changes also play a role in how M1 Killers do as well.
There are so many possibilities to what they can do with this... we'll always have a Killer above the rest, but if the other Killers on the roster are viable than we'll see a lot more diversity in the pool. Peoples main issue seems to be the viability at Red Ranks with most Killers... if they improve upon this than things would get a lot better.
And yes, people will always play the most broken builds, Killers, characters, etc... That's why you balance that out to make things less dull... kind of like what they're doing with Spirit. The nerfs are reasonable and she's still strong afterwards.
The Nurse nerf can be debated if it was a hard nerf or not... but it definitely isn't a Killer friendly nerf to Killers that don't know how to use her. Killers with prior experience with Nurse can struggle less with this nerf.
Buff more Killers. Most aren't able to be played effectively at rank 1.
If we're talking base-kit, than no. If you add add-ons and perks into the mix and a sprinkle of skill than it depends on the Killer mains that use those Killers to make them viable.
That doesn't really solve the issue though if most Killers are add-on reliant or perk reliant to be viable... so buffing base-kit would help a lot, and even some map changes could improve things greatly.
I find easier done than said, and most matches are predicable, the few that aren't is rare and only require you to only slightly adjust, relax and know where windows and pallets are and assume 3 things may happen, they ignore you, they break pallet/go through window, they go around pallet/window and act accordingly to the killer that's doing it, if they try going around pallet, cool, vault right over, if they break, cool, run, etc
Honestly, a full map rework is the first thing that needs to happen. Every map needs to be brought in line with Badham. And Haddonfield needs a quick fix ensuring the Strode house can't spawn with two windows, to stop the BL infinite.
They decided against it..likely due to the massive upside of seeing the killers aura which is hugely underestimated
Being forced to run certain perks and add-ons on killer in order to compete on red rank is not fun. Running the exact same build every game is not fun, just like versing 10 spirits in a row.
So yeah, base-kit buff is needed badly
That's... not how the saying goes and logically works.
Saying something should work like this, this, and this is easier than actually going out and doing it yourself. Like, if you told an artist to paint this amazing portrait with all this detail with no prior experience in how to even paint... than you say it's easy is easier said than actually doing it yourself!
Like I said, every match is unpredictable and the choices you make can impact the match greatly... If you waste time getting every crate in the match while no generators are being done and 2 people are hooked... than you're risking those 2 players being killed on hook because you were looking for items in boxes, rather than saving them.
That's a good step in the right direction, when they were talking about map reworks I thought they were referring to ALL maps... instead it was just Pre-School it seems...
While we do get that map a fair bit now because there are so many of them that were design to aid in this issue... it still doesn't really fix the other maps issue. Like, Iron works still has that broken window loop, Crotus Prenn still has A LOT of safety drops and pallets, Wretched shop still has that huge 2 window loop in the main structure, etc.
We'll probably see more development on what they'll be doing with this in the future than... maybe around Chapter 14 but not during the chapter itself.
Or they might scrap the idea, who knows. I can't read minds ha ha!
Base-kit and map changes would help with most low tier Killer issues in Red Ranks.
If you're saying Freddy has problems with looping then you're playing him wrong :)
I couldn't think of the saying but you get what I mean lol, and all my games as survivor doesn't end up with hooks and a DC after gen 5 so I probably forgot a game plan for it
Eh, I mean Kindred is like what, 16m around the hook? It's not huge, and they could even add a little delay so that the killer doesn't get revealed when they're walking away from the hook. It only stops survs unintentionally doubling up on unhooks, and stops camping. The first kinda sucks for killers, since more survs not on gens is good, but it's not a huge loss. The second, you're already punishing yourself by camping hook, I don't mind the game doubling down on trying to teach killers that camping is not efficient.
No? I don't think that was what my point was insinuating at all...
I don't really get what you mean, but my point still stands regardless.
Each game is different, you might get a strong team that can loop a pro Spirit for 5 gens, or you might get a 3 man DC and you get hooked with no mercy...
It's unknown what will happen in a trial, that's why it's a M Y S T E R Y !
Idk, the ramifications of this base-kit change could punish non-campers tbh... despite the 16 meters not being that big.
16 meters is actually a decent size if you compare it to Myers base-kit Tier ll... it's not huge but it's not that small either... if you're seeing a Killers aura in that 16 meter ring on say... a really small map, than it could really damage the gameplay for them.
On paper it's a good idea to counter camping, and teach Killers other tactics to use... but that's about it.
How can you not get it, you're either good, learning or trash, that's basically it, my games don't end up with anyone hooked, cause we know every killer counter and ready for any type of play, cause we've seen it all now, it's predicable as heck for us, only human error causes us to be hit and that's more range killers, but only the one time that happens
I can see both sides of the argument certainly, they could make it to be tier 1 Kindred and not tier 3, which would be 8m. I really don't feel it'd be too impactful, at least with how I play the game, but I'm not gonna say it'd be fine to just slap on.
A seasoned veteran can be bested in some cases.
To say you're unbeatable (which is what you're basically implying) is pretty wrong to say the least. You may have seen it all and you know all the tricks, but that doesn't mean anything in the actual game.
I've seen every trick too, but I sometimes get bested as well. It doesn't matter if you know all the tricks you're still prone to being defeated...
Of course theres always a best killer.
But the smaller difference between the best and the worst, the better for the game.
I feel like all I ever face on console is Ghost Face and Myers. Seriously like 2/3 matches is those two, because people love getting cheap instadowns, which Hillbilly is only a half-baked version of. Buff the Doctor or Trapper, because they desperately need it.
8 meters sounds more reasonable, but i'm sure Survivors could abuse it in some way... idk.
Tbh, an aura reading base-kit change wouldn't really solve the solo Survivor issue in-general... I think there should be more to it than that.
I am saying ever since I've hit rank 2 with my group, we never lost, rank 5 to then we rarely lost, rank 6 - 11 half and half over that we lost many cause we were learning still
Basically, if the roster was more even and balanced than the overall health and diversity of each match could be greatly improved.
Of course we'll always have a top tier Killer though... but having that top-tier Killer being one of maybe 4 viable choices is very different than say... a full roster of decent choices to choose from.
Console is a lot different because of controllers vs Keyboard and Mouse.
I feel console has a bit more diversity because of this...
I kind of feel like this notion that “No one is playing other killers in red ranks” is simply not true.
Perhaps it is a region thing, but I keep seeing different killers... and some that aren’t even mid-tier. I’m just not sure that everyone is having the same experience. Yesterday alone I saw 1 spirit, 2 Hillbillies, 2 Clowns, 3 Trappers and a Wraith.
Again, it's bold to say you can never lose off of knowledge alone.
Knowledge is good, but that's not really enough if you don't have skill or forward thinking to back it up. I feel in time you'll face a Killer that'll prove my point right, someone who can match your team and get the point across that you're not invincible 100% of the time.
Nobody is perfect.
I wouldn't say no one is playing other Killers, it's more so that you just see a lot more Freddys and Spirits at Red Ranks than you see any Pigs, Clowns, Wraiths, etc.
It also depends on the Killers you face... if it's a Spirit main that only plays Spirit than it's going to be Spirit... if it's a Killer that wants to mix things up each time than it could be a pig, wraith, clown, etc... who knows.
Maybe it also depends on the time of day tbh.