Spirit should not be nerfed
Now that some "changes" are coming to her, we all know this means a nerf; and, in my opinion, an unnecessary one.
The Spirit was created as a mindgame killer, and now a lot of people is complaining just about that, saying stuff like "no counterplay", "no skill", "50/50 chances", etc.
I've played with her for a long time, and I can say without a doubt that, in fact, she does have A LOT of counterplay: slow vaulting back after a quick vault, walking in opposite directions, lead scratch marks to other way, etc. Any succesfull mindgame you pull on her will cause the killer a very big time waste. And contrary to popular belief, pulling one is not hard.
You are not "guessing" when playing against her, or rather: you SHOULDN'T be guessing when playing against her. Use your brain, think of ways to trick her and you'll see how much you improve.
I recommend using spine chill (inb4 the "i shouldnt be using a perk just for one killer" outcry), that one single perk tells you when she's phasing making your life ten times easier.
Another thing I want to talk about is that I don't think she's "overperforming", do devs know when players die after trying or if they just give up mid-game? Because a lot of people do instead of getting good and unpredictable.
If I had to guess, I'd say that people don't like facing Spirit because you don't loop her on a conventional way (W around a pallet), but she can still be "looped".
I've faced her on purple ranks many times and most of them I had a lot of fun, pulling succesfull mindgames on a chase is satisfying and you leave her without power making her waste time.
The Spirit is not a 50/50 killer, you have to think what you're doing, otherwise you're turning yourself and your team in
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Some people considered it "unfun" to play against her, now she's getting nerfed. So many dcs against her, she's clearly overperforming boiiis.
My favorite part about the "perks are not counter play" argument is that they ignore the absolute devastation Iron Will and Spine Chill can have on the Spirit. Like sure, without perks it is significantly harder to counter her, but WITH these perks it is actually super easy to counter her. To the point it's almost a joke. These perks crush her so hard, I don't see how you can just ignore this. Not to mention, both Iron Will and Spine Chill are strong perks against ANY killer. So anyone making the claim "I shouldn't have to use 1 of 60 perks to counter a killer" again ignore the fact these perks are great against any killer. The only killers where Iron Will won't help are Plague (because you cry in pain when sick regardless) and Doc (because you will scream revealing your position anyway). If these perks weren't strong against nearly the entire killer roster they might have a point, but since they are and since they dominate killers like the Spirit so much I find it intellectually dishonest to just dismiss them as counter play options.
Know what I do when I run across a lot of Docs or killers using Infectious Fright? Yep I put on Calm Spirit. I have no issue with this at all because of how hard this perk counters Doc too. If it can sway the game that hard, it is indeed a valid counter play option.
What's funny too is that Iron Will and Spine chill are amazing against ANY killer.
The only reason people don't use them is that they benefit stealth play, which apparently is bad... For some reason.
???
These dont nerf spirit posts are about the same to each other just as the nerf spirit ones are. Also as someone who has tried the three counterplay options you give and they still usually result in failure because the player knows they are counter options. A few of the times doing the slow vault again guess what they did they waited on the side i vaulted from and i got downed, the walking thing is nothing, come out of phase and see where they're walking and hit them thats not counterplay in a lot of places on maps unless you're near a pallet or window to get actual distance or are healthy with the nancy perk. Also back tracking has just made me run back into her giving her the collison to know what im doing most times. These are hardly counterplay and running spine chill is ONLY useful against her with the other stealth killers you just keep looking around and you'll usually see them before they get close and they arent that hard to really play around. So while Spine chill is good against her its a lot better and easier to bring perks that work for your general survival or that you have fun using rather than having to bring that perk because you might hate the spirit or just wanna not get cheesed.
Lets not forget that sometimes Killers also has to bring perks and addons themselves to counter certain groups of survivors (I'm looking at you, Object of Obsession).
But apparently when killers have to do it it's "fair and balanced"
Now don't get me wrong, I want her to be a little more obvious for the survivors. Mainly because in my opinion, you need to pay attention to outsmart her during a chase. But she also shouldn't be gutted the same way Legion was.
I still don't think bringing perks, addons or offerings should be a valid counter though. As a killer I don't want to bring blindness addons or perks to an OoO group. Or bring a mori if I don't feel like going up against a group that I suspect are playing an optimal SWF.
You should be able to counter them in-game, not with stuff you prepared outside the match.
IKR
It's like no one ever tries to be stealthy. And some act like it's impossible. It's really not. Dodging BBQ/Nurse's is so easy for me at this point I don't even think about it anymore. Discordance is easy to avoid once you realize the killer has it. Spine Chill beats every aura read add-on killers have, including SM Myers now. But no one wants to acknowledge that stealth is indeed effective. Maybe they just aren't good at doing it, which is fine, but just because you aren't good at it doesn't mean it's not a good tactic. I've lost games as killer (Spirit too) specifically because of super stealthy players.
I think the reasoning behind it is because "Stealth is not fun".
Lol I play Jeff, that mofo is fat, tall, and loud... And I'm able to stealth around quite easy. Yes, knowing how to loop helps, but if you can avoid getting into a chase, DO IT.
I've been running Iron Will ever since the last time it was in the Shrine, and even then I was running Urban.
If I recall, my build right now is Iron Will, Bond, Self Care, and either Balanced/Lithe. Iron Will for stealth, Bond for reconnaissance with both Survivors and Killer, Self Care for when I can't be bothered to spend more time finding somebody than healing, and Balanced/Lithe for chases.
Well they gotta keep their survivor players at least wanting to play the game. If they piss off some spirit players and they stop playing there are still 16 other killers that are being played by people that play other killers too vs all these people playing survivor that rage quit or quit the game or just dont play for a while because she's frustrating people that much. Thats more players than the spirit players. Its not fair but this is what happens when everyone wants to just play the "strong" killer. They get their OP label and get nerfed whether its justified or not it happens across many games when something is used too much. She's more common than nurse now despite people wanting to say she's still the strongest killer, but some think nurse is trash now so..who knows
but killer perks/power always trump survivor perks (not saying survivor one should trump killer ones but maybe cancel each other?).
OoO against an Undetectable killer is just a target on your back with no benefit, except to the killer.
Iron Will? Better hope the spirit isnt using Stridor - the one perk almost every spirit uses as IW is the main counter to her...
Note: I am in noway advocating a "nerf" to spirit. I do, however, agree with the changes Otz has suggested.
Conversely, you can prove she does over perform by getting 100 4k's in a row. No mori's and any game with a DC is discarded. Also it should be at red ranks at least because anyone can derank and bully baby survivors. I think those are fair restrictions wouldn't you say?
Exactly, which is completely subjective. I find stealth fun, but I also find chases fun. I find majority of the stuff in the game fun, hence why I play. I know players that don't find stealth fun and others that don't find chases fun. To each their own, but just because you don't find something fun doesn't automatically make it less effective or impossible to do.
All they need to do is rework the prayer beads and remove her collision with survivors during phase walking.
Most people use strong and fun mechanics. Nurse is strong, but definitly not fun anymore. Spirit is strong and fun. Maybe she will end up like nurse being extremely difficult so no casual will play her anymore. Good game design i guess.
Bamboozle is good on every map , so you should use it every match just in case you get a map with a broken loop. Maps don't need fixing since bamboozle exists.
This is your mentality.
I started as a Jake main (Kate main now) and have been using Iron Will since I started playing the game. I've gone through periods where I stop using it, but I always end up circling back around to it. It's such a great perk.
Otzdarva? That maniac said new nurse is super fun and old base nurse was broken. He's a nice guy, but he knows nothing about balance.
yeah spirit is fun but i honestly believe thats just because its easier to win. Like for me im terrible at doctor and leatherface and i dont think they're fun. Im good at freddy and the legion..They're fun.. and demogorgon. Spirit is fun but everyone says that and tons of people use her now..not sure if my point is gonna get to you but i think you get what i mean. Nobody has fun losing unless you enjoy torturing yourself.
Except it's not actually good on every map. It's not good on Lery's because of the sheer amount of windows. It's not good on some main structures because they have 2 windows. Bambo is way more situational than Iron Will.
Furthermore, only certain maps need fixing and it's not because of window loops. It's because of windows AND pallets AND the size/shape of the loop. There is a lot more going on here than you are willing to admit.
By your logic fixing a single window will fix these loops, which is patently untrue. The issue is way more complicated than that.
Same with half the stuff in my build.
I haven't played without an exhaustion perk since I was around rank 18 and had 20 hours on the game. I've even had builds that had both Lithe and Balanced.
I switched Self Care with Bond constantly, but recently I think they work very well together.
I used to run DS, but I would always run the timer out, so ultimately it's kinda pointless. The killer can't tunnel ya if they can't find ya!
I mean the new nurse addons actually do something and I can see myself actually using some to mix things up. It was very stale not using any and still getting an easy 4k with 5gens remaining. I do hate the ding everytime your blinks charge up though and the charge time itself is a lot to get used to.
I didnt reference him to say that his opinion trumps anyone elses but to merely say that I agree with the suggested changes and think they could work. I also think that the changes wouldnt upset too many people.
I use Stridor on Spirit and I can tell you it's not as hard of a counter as you think. It's a soft counter at best. It turns Iron Will 3 into Iron Will 1. The guy will still be very difficult to hear, you will only hear them within about 8m. So having Iron Will will still benefit you even if the killer has Stridor.
Additionally if you really want to beat Stridor, run No Mither and Iron Will. You will be 150% silent which trumps Stridor completely. I've actually had a game where I used this combo and the Spirit had Stridor. I was literally following her and she had absolutely no idea I was around. Sadly, unless you want to run the build for many games, the chances of getting a Spirit with Stridor to beat is incredibly low. Still it works, I've done it.
Bring it on, nerf them all, spirit, billy, freddy, wraith. make them all equally terrible so we can kill this game 2 years early.
I'm kinda good with every killer, but idk where my fun comes from. I enjoy Legion and Nurse, but i hate playing as Spirit or Pig. I think it comes down to personal preference at the end.
They changed the ding to a lot less annoying sound luckily.
Most of the addons are a one-time-use joke. Like Jenners. Cool i can revert my blink. But it's not more than cool, that's the problem. If you want efficency, you use CD addons, hands down. I'm still experimenting with addons like campbells or matchbox, but nothing seems quite useful.
Let's not discuss about the opinion of streamers, you're right.
1.) By slow vaulting back, you leave yourself in the open for the killer to hit you. So let's say you manage to do that once, what exactly is allowing you to do It again? Unless the killer is brainless, this strategy will rarely ever work because you won't be the first person who has tried that against an experience spirit player.
Walking in the opposite direction isn't counterplay because you won't know if she is phasing or not. Thus meaning the killer would know your direction if she isn't phasing because they can "fake phase". Let's say you do walk another direction, what's stopping the killer from unphasing from your last previous place? Obviously because you are walking you won't make that much of a distance against her.
Leading your scratch to another direction means you will have to go that direction. So the killer would most likely bump into you if you tried doing that or hear your character's voice. Not only that you won't know how close or far the spirit user is meaning you could get hit before that even works. So once again you are guessing.
Those aren't mind game, it is still you guessing and hoping she would fall for tricks that most likely have happened most of the time. A killer can easily counter these idea because there is alot of perks design to locate suriviors for all killers. The only time this would work is against an inexperience killer which they would learn from and be able to counter it if someone else tries that against them.
Moreover, you talk about using your brain, but what's stopping the killer from using their brain?
2.) Spine chill doesn't help during a chase because the killer would be looking at you before she is even phasing. Spine chill also doesn't tell you the direction or distance of the killer so you are still unable to know what the killer is doing. The only time is is usually useful is against gen grab spirit or sleath killers.
3.) You understand that spirit is gaining an average of 3 killers or more each game. Let me repeat an "average of 3 kills each game". It isn't as if one or two people are, most people are managing to do that. To be able to do better than the nurse, says alot.
"Coincidentally, she also happens to average three kills per game if not higher (with the target being two kills two escape). Fun is definitely a factor, but not the only thing that's considered. A game is meant to be fun though, advocating for not making the game fun is a hard sell."
This was stated by Peanits himself that the killer is doing too well. Another thing is that if alot of people are dcing from the game, it means alot of people arent having fun.
Kills also don't relate to dc because they have different symbols and would add up to the killer's score. So it is logical to assume they are talking about kills because that even said so.
3.) It is still a 50/50 because you are hoping the killer would fall for your trick. Also you having a fun time doesn't speak for the majority who are not having a fun time. It also doesn't show that your ideas of counter play is constantly working because she is still trying at average 3 kills if not more each game. So your point aren't solving the true problem of the spirit.
Spirit isn't the first killer that looping doesn't work against. Nurse was a thing for over 2 years which you couldn't loop against. A good Hibiily was also a thing because if used correctly he can hit you from a stupid angle. Spirit not being able to loop isn't the main problem, it was the killer not having a reliable counter play.
In conclusion, spirit's power shouldn't be nerf. However, have more disadvantage such as suriviors being able to have some clues of where she is. Obviously her add ons are very questionable because some add ons allows her to phase over 5 times in a few seconds. There is another which we shall never discuss about because it's broken.
It seems like this is exactly the problem, all the things you mentioned can be turned. One mindgame worked against her? Do another one next time. There's no rulebook to win 100% everytime as survivor against spirit. And it's not meant to be there, despite it's existence for most killers.
Every killer, that counter wasn't basic looping got nerfed or will receive a nerf. Old Nurse, Spirit, old Legion. I really don't want to assume things here, but i really want to assume that many people don't wanna adapt.
One last thing for ya, you realizing, that every game, that's not a 4k, is a blackpip? Let me repeat: "every game, that's not a 4k, is a blackpip".
I'm pretty confident I can win infinite games in a row with Spirit as long as I get to use Amulet/Wakazashi. I don't think I've lost with that setup in my entire time playing the game. Its ridiculously overpowered.
That just shows how weak trapper is, and how badly he needs buff
Only brainless killers with arms growing out of their asses can't play trapper efficiently . Most of them will put like 1 or 2 obvious traps and proceed to M1 around the map .
Right the guy with 2k + hrs who beats strongest swf with OoO without using Moris/busted addons doesn't know anything . I bet you are one of the Tru3whiner followers .
Good bro, this is the thing.
Devs provide a different gameplay and then regret because people cry about it.
Many people are good against her, and there is a bunch of perks which are very helpful against her.
Also, nerfing her would do nothing different than perpetrating the same, usual, boring meta. Keeping her the same would start encouraging people to drop same old perks
Making the game more variegated is a must, and we want to raise our voice to say DON'T TOUCH SPIRIT
Be the one to prove spirit is OP firstly. You can't blame somebody for not providing stats and then you do the same.
People crying for it has zero value
I'm not a follower of no one m8, just looked up many opinions of many streamers and forum members on the nurse changes.
play him without perk & add-ons, let's see how many gens are done after you placed all traps
Noone plays like this .
Killer shouldn't require perks or add-ons to do well
Says who ? Red ranks always have been pretty much about running meta/strong stuff , some killers are balanced around those perks as well . Your opinion has no proof .
There's no mind game against her. You expect a surivior to mind game someone they can't see or tell what they are doing?
All the ones that did get nerf, still are capable of countering loops.
That's actually untrue because Peanits said that their aim is for killers to get 2 kills and suriviors to get 2 escapes at average. So to put it simple, people that get back pip is just the system fault or mistake. They should truly get pip or neutral.
A few of the times doing the slow vault again guess what they did they waited on the side i vaulted from and i got downed
You shouldn't be doing it for the whole match, mix it up between doing it and idk, fast vaulting and then walking to another direction.
the walking thing is nothing, come out of phase and see where they're walking and hit them thats not counterplay in a lot of places on maps unless you're near a pallet or window to get actual distance
Thats not how it works. If you're walking and the killer is phasing she can't see your scratch marks, so avoid grass and walk into a wall or something, when the spirit comes out of phasing shell spend some time looking around for you and then is when you run.
Also back tracking has just made me run back into her giving her the collison to know what im doing most times.
Bruh. dont back track in a straight line lol, move to one side and then backtrack
So while Spine chill is good against her its a lot better and easier to bring perks that work for your general survival or that you have fun using rather than having to bring that perk because you might hate the spirit or just wanna not get cheesed.
Im sorry to tell you that killers have to adapt their whole perks sometimes just because of what type of survivors they're playing against. Im sure just changing one perk won't kill you
I like how you chose one of the weakest and least consistent killers to compare her to XDDD
Doubt it
you can try to read more posts, majority supports that "Killer should do well even without perks and add-ons". Perks and add-ons should only provide a small boost, not to the point where it's mandatory
If you must use certain perks or add-ons on killers, then those killers are not well-designed
Said who ? Provide me quote from devs/mods who said that . Or may be it's some biased opinion ? The only perkless killers/survivors I've encoutered were rank 18-20 . Rarely (like 1 per 500 games) I saw some people try no perks challenge and that's it . Game was never balanced around no perks gameplay .
also that contradict statement that survivors should run IW/Spine chill in order to survive spirit . If well-desighnes killers need no perks to perform great why survivors need certain perks to counter killers ?
Go read posts, wise guy. i have nothing to say to you anymore
@GrootDude said you don't need spine chill / iron will to outplay spirit
Very good argument . Definitely should listen to your constructive opinion
Good luck in red ranks against stridor spirits . Or wait usually people who defend spirit don't even have rank 10 on survivors
Spine Chill counters all stealth killers plus the ones with less TR.
And even on "normal" killers, it helps you to know if they're in your area or directly coming to you