madminer95
madminer95
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@HectorBrando said:
Well the Saw tome was never about buffing or revamping her in any way, same as they rarely change any other characters in their tomes except for Doctor, and he was the exception not the norm.
Like I said this is what I wished for, not what I expected.
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@bm33 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2737862#Comment_2737862
Devs now see it as blackface (as Not Queen said in that clip) and as a tool used by racists to harass players. As of mid-chapter patch it will be gone. No argument on why some players want to keep it will change that, especially after multiple news sources have reported "Dead by Daylight removes Leatherface mask over blackface complaints."
As for lore excuse DBD Fog Whisperer Milady Confetti did a great video on that.
While yes its basically impossible that the Devs will revers there decision (at least on the smartface cosmetic) right or wrong because the negative PR from all those news sources jumping on it saying "Dead by daylight keeps blackface in game" would be massive.
that video makes a pretty bad argument, it basically boils down to 'your not allowed to defend that cosmetic because its not cannon that he wore a black persons skin in real life or the movies' despite the fact she points out herself that leatherface wears masks of people because in his own twisted way he admires them and wants to be them, its a controversial take I'm sure but following that logic him refusing to don the skin of Claudette would make him more racist not less.
it'll be interesting to see peoples reactions if the character on the far right ends up becoming a mask in the upcoming Texas Chainsaw Massacre Netflix film.
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@Mandy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2742180#Comment_2742180
This is not a rash decision this is something that's been under discussion for quite some time...we also do ban the people that racially harass others. Removing a tool that's used by people to racially harass others is something that's important to us. We do not want something in our game that we have control over, to be used to attack others in this manner.
While I disagree with the removal of a cosmetic that isn't inherently racist (through lore or by definition of what blackface is), instead of continuing to to ban those that are racist regardless of whether they're wearing the mask or not and improving the reporting/banning systems.
Note:
This is not an impossible problem to moderate, banning on the few occasions where hateful activity crops up would mean to reoffend with the mask said racist would not only have to rebuy the game and the leatherface DLC but also have to not only matchmake with but also sacrifice one of the original characters 25 times each as leatherface to unlock the masks only to play one or two matches being racist and then get banned again,
and that's if they're not straight up IP blocked.
I can understand the need as a company to not have such a grey area exist in the game at all as its bad PR.
But could you not just remove or edit (just make smartface Claudette's glasses?) the smartface cosmetic?
Or if you really are going to remove cosmetics that came part and parcel with a paid only DLC and required large amount's of peoples time to unlock could you please make the compensation less pitiful? 6000 iridescent shards wont even buy a head cosmetic that is available for shards,
personally I'd like to see 400 auric cells so people can buy a different leatherface mask (or something else of they're choice).
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@SelectDevotee68 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/303245/leatherface-masks-removal
Why doesn't BHVR change it to be Claudette's glasses instead? LeatherFace wears her glasses, and it ain't black face no more.
And if it has to still be removed, just remove Claudette's.
i'd be okay with that, people only seem to be taking issue with the smartface cosmetic so it make more sense to just edit/remove just that one.
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considering leatherface is a paid only DLC the compensation for removing his masks should be 400 auric cells so you can go buy a single cosmetic of your choice.
but realistically behaviour are too money grubbing for that to be likely.
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I'd just like to add to this, this is not an impossible problem to moderate, a few banhammers where hateful activity crops up and possibly some better reporting tools would be a massively successful.
If someone has there account banned they not only have to rebuy the game and the leatherface DLC but also have to not only matchmake with but also sacrifice one of the original characters 25 times each as leatherface to unlock the masks only to play one or two matches being racist and then get banned again
and that's if the dev's don't straight up block they're IP
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@bm33 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2731617#Comment_2731617
Removing the masks removes the racists ability to amplify their hate. Having the ability to make Bubba essentially have blackface was easy way for racists to get their kicks. Removing the masks makes it harder for them to get their racist message across - it's like locking your car door to avoid theft, only those really intent on stealing are going to go out of their way to break the window but most won't put effort in past checking if the car is unlocked. Now if players want to be racist they'll have to try harder to get their message across, the ones being racist because it was easy to toss on mask and in endgame go "lol I'm racist" are just going to move on because they'll actually need to put in effort.
I'm sure this isn't a this or that situation. Removing the masks doesn't mean they won't still ban people outing themselves as racist in endgame chat - it's pretty ignorant to think that would be the case. There have also been complaints for years about this mask and players using it to harass POC players - BHVR probably tried moderating while trying to keep the masks in game but unfortunately racists keep coming into the game.
This is also licensed content so the license holder would have to agree for BHVR to remove the masks. It's a bad look if their character is being associated with racism thanks to a mask that isn't necessary to the game. The license holder probably didn't need too much convincing, especially when they have a Texas Chain Saw Massacre game in the works - don't need "blackface Bubba" popping up in searches and tainting brand new game.
thing is the smartface cosmetic in of itself isn't the problem as it really isn't blackface, the Devs themselves have even voiced that in the past.
leatherface doesn't discriminate in who he kills eats and wears the face of, it entirely fits in his law to have these cosmetics.
the real problem is how people are behaving and dead by daylights lacklustre report and banning systems.
it's like locking your car door to avoid theft, only those really intent on stealing are going to go out of their way to break the window but most won't put effort in past checking if the car is unlocked.
To give a better example, if a government was getting reports of people using paint to blackface in real life it'd be a bit stupid if they banned the sale of black paint rather than just increasing policing resource to tackle the problem.
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@bm33 said:
The artist of the cosmetic is happy it was removed. If he doesn't want his art being used for hate and is happy to have it removed than I think it's the right choice.
https://twitter.com/EZE3D/status/1478429227699650579?t=pZVckLZG5F0wzkuE_msiTQ&s=19
I mean, while its understandable that an artist doesn't want his name associated with racism it doesn't mean its the right decision to remove the cosmetics rather than properly moderating the game to ensure the small minority of players being hateful while using the cosmetics are banned.
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@[Deleted User] said:
The harassment was well documented. Just because you personally did not see or experience it does not mean that it didn't happen.
Leatherface players were specifically wearing the blackface mask to target POC and characters of color. Nobody was using the LGBT charm to carry out attacks. They were victims of harassment, not the ones carrying it out. I 100% believe you understand this distinction and are just here to troll or play the contrarian for the sake of it.
I'm not saying it didn't happen full stop but from what I can tell from the posts around this removal what's been documented is an amount of isolated incidents you could count on your hand that blew up on socials, an easily manageable quantity of incidents that could be dealt with through bans.
the LGBT charm was being used to identify, focus and insult those who were/supporting LGBT and was arguably a more widespread issue, Behaviour could have solved that problem through deleting the charm but instead solved it through reports and bans
I'm genuinely not here to "troll or play the contrarian", I just think this is both the wrong and lazy way of fixing this issue, the people spreading hate get away without repercussions and will just move on to doing something else similar and they get the satisfaction that they made big enough ripples to have content people paid for removed from the game.
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@GentlemanFridge said:
Auric cells for something that was ultimately free? Say what you want about the decision, but that's unreasonable.
the masks aren't free at all, they're part and package of a paid only DLC that requires a large time sink to unlock.
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Care to explain your disagreement? or just give a one word response with no explanation or evidence?
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@legacycolt said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2381598#Comment_2381598
Still, the MAJORITY of killers aren’t trying to play nice and fair.
while I think you're overstating the scale of killers not "playing fair",
As I've said, killers that want to tunnel easily do it anyway, the separated hook counter wouldn't make it any easier. But a killer that wants to avoid tunnelling would have an easier time avoiding doing it accidently.
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@Freudentrauma said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2370984#Comment_2370984
I personally think it has less to do with tunneling rather with encouraging focus in certain situations, where a killer can track or see several survivors and will choose the one who is closer on death hook than the others. Of course that can already happen with killers who have a good memory, but when killer have the information, they will focus more in situation like these. And the devs kinda want to prevent that from happening.
I personally don't agree with that, but that what I think is the reason why.
Thing is that works both ways, the Survivors having the individual hook counter encourages focus, either to body block for survivors on a higher amount of hook stages or not bother starting run for a save for someone on death hook when they're picked up and instead focusing a generator.
That level of information is beyond what the average SWF would have been communicating before the counter.
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@TacitusKilgore said:
If killers could see which survivors were hooked and which weren't, there would be an unruly increase in tunneling. Its a terrible idea.
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@madminer95 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2366636#Comment_2366636
A better hook counter wouldn't have any negative effect in regard to tunnelling,
A Killer that's purposely tunnelling can easily remember who it is they've chosen to target and a better hook counter wouldn't benefit them any.
But for a Killer that isn't purposely tunnelling and would rather spread the hooks out to be nice/get the most bloodpoints would use the counter to reduce any accidental tunnelling they might do.
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@Bumbus said:
It would be a good QOL change to don't keep the count in your head.
But devs don't want playing killer to be comfortable.
Feels that way some times..
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Speed boost
- Wraith's invisibility + speed boost is his entire power, its what makes him strong, removing his speed boost would be the equivalent of removing ghost face's ability to mark people with exposed.
Invisibility
- Wraith's got 2 tell's that he's approaching you, as he gets closer you can see distortions around him like the predators invisibility, and there are the fairly loud sounds of his footsteps and the clicking sounds he makes as he breaths.
Addon's
- Every killer has addons that make you have to change the way you play, with Wraith's addon's that mess with his bell you either need to really keep your eyes peeled for his shimmer and run or accept that your going to take a hit if he finds you and stay healed up.
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@legacycolt said:
No, we don’t need to make it easier for killers to tunnel.
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@madminer95 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2366636#Comment_2366636
A better hook counter wouldn't have any negative effect in regard to tunnelling,
A Killer that's purposely tunnelling can easily remember who it is they've chosen to target and a better hook counter wouldn't benefit them any.
But for a Killer that isn't purposely tunnelling and would rather spread the hooks out to be nice/get the most bloodpoints would use the counter to reduce any accidental tunnelling they might do.
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@[Deleted User] said:
I feel like if they did that, it would encourage killer players "to go down the list" of survivors which is a bad idea because you cannot reliably find the same person three times in a row.
I'm not sure what your trying to imply here,
that a new player would be encouraged to not chase the first person they find roaming the map because they're not first on the list?
because I feel like even the dumbest player would quickly realize that's a bad idea.
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@fastpacedsound said:
This is currently my least favorite bug in the entire game because it happens in every single blight match and usually causes me to miss out on a down. I'm hoping to bump this so it gets patched sooner.
Also there's a bug with alchemists ring where if you dash immediately after it stops your rush and causes fatigue.
fingers crossed this gets patched soon but with how long blight has been sliding off objects rather than bouncing I wouldn't count on it.
I'm convinced if there even is a QA team non of them play Blight.
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@CrustyCake said:
What do you need that info for? I don't see how that info will help you, unless you really want to make sure everyone is on death hook before you start killing them off.
That info won't really help you not tunnel, except very early game. There is a very easy solution to that, "whoops I accidently hooked dwight twice, o well from now on I wont chase dwight until I have hooked a few others." What there are two dwights wearing the exact same cosmetic, very rare and usually a swf trying to trip you up, at that point you are no longer responsible if you accidently tunnel.
If you need it to tunnel, well.....umm.....bad killer.
Killers having the separated hook UI would just be a good quality of life addition.
Letting them avoid accidentally tunnelling and ending up eating a decisive strike and preventing Killers wasting they're perk tokens or powers (e.g. Pig putting a reverse bear trap on a death hook Survivor)
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@gibblywibblywoo said:
No thanks. Don't need to make it easier for Leatherface to just chase the same person all game.
A better hook counter wouldn't have any negative effect in regard to tunnelling,
A Killer that's purposely tunnelling can easily remember who it is they've chosen to target and a better hook counter wouldn't benefit them any.
But for a Killer that isn't purposely tunnelling and would rather spread the hooks out to be nice/get the most bloodpoints would use the counter to reduce any accidental tunnelling they might do.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
This is your 4th thread on this Topic. I highly doubt that the Devs will change their mind on that one, the new Hook UI for Killers is mainly positive feedback if they are doing well.
I know, I've pretty much given up on the Dev's listening to reason, just saw those patch notes and knew this meme had to be made.
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@TragicSolitude said:
I'm really curious why some of the newer PTB feedback sections aren't being added to the archives. The 4.6.0 PTB (the All-Kill chapter) isn't in the archives, and the 5.0.0 PTB (the Resident Evil chapter) also isn't in the archives. The 4.7.0 PTB feedback is in the archives, however, so it's not like they just stopped archiving the PTB feedback altogether; there's some sort of PTB-specific reasoning behind this.
Only reasons I can think of are..
1) the forum mods are hiding the original categories but forgetting to copy it across to the archive. (derp)
2) -tinfoil hat time- the Devs are purposely having certain PTB's feedback not archived because they don't like the negative feedback.
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1993149#Comment_1993149
THANK YOU! Finally a comment that actually explains it. Tired of people just assuming everyone is SWF and Solo Q getting slept on, when in IMO it can be the most frustrating experience in game.
no one is saying that every Survivor is playing in a SWF.
but It's generally accepted that SWF levels of communication do imbalance the game.
As necessary quality of life adjustments are made to improve solo Survivor communication, logical corresponding counterbalances need to be made for killers to keep SWF's in check with the end goal being SWF's being a little less powerful and solo being at that same level.
For this particular feature what makes most sense is to give killers the same UI.
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this Issue is still present in the full release of patch 4.6.0 despite the adjustments to The Blights animations.
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@twistedmonkey said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2058867#Comment_2058867
Of course new players may camp and tunnel until they realise once they rank up that they are getting less bloodpoints but should they be given the tools to make it easier? That is what the argument is.
Your last point is also one of the reasons why its not there. Yes even vets forget at times but the devs did state that they want this thought process to happen and not be given. Then we look at the hook counter which can of course be used in your example but when you flip and know even vets can forget you have then just gave them the info to go after the one on death hook instead. This itself then promotes it for those who would do it.
Back to one of my original points it wouldn't make it any easier to tunnel, they're already told the Survivor they are hooking is dead on they're next hook by them beginning to struggle and the "entity summoned" score event, if they're inclined to tunnel they'll still do exactly what they do now and go back to the hook as soon as the Survivor is unhooked and only chase them with no need for the counter.
And if memory of hook states is going to be lorded as part of a Killer's general skill ceiling and the devs want that "thought process to happen and not be given" the same should apply to Survivors.
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@swager21 said:
it would encourage tunneling. for example, two people are injured and the killer shows up. hes going to look at the hook counter and go for the person that has the most hook stages or is on death hook.
Sounds like you're definition of tunneling is off.
Being solely focused off of hook is tunneling.
The killer hooking you, then hooking someone else, then choosing to chase you over someone that hasn't been hooked isn't tunneling, its just good prioritization, which unlike tunneling is perfectly reasonable and shouldn't be frowned upon.
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@twistedmonkey said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2028960#Comment_2028960
When I say from the start it does not mean from the start of the match.
It means when they first pick up the game and start as new players.
The argument from some others is that it would help new players as those who know the game don't exactly need it to track who they have hooked.
Again, I see a hook counter making very little difference to player attitudes as far as tunnelling/camping even if they are new,
Chances are if they're new and haven't seen any gameplay before they will tunnel and camp, regardless of counter or not, simply because this game's tutorial is a joke and only barely touches on the very basic game mechanics and as a new player those may seem like the logical things to do, generally as people play more and or watch experienced gameplay they come to understand that tunnelling is generally a bad idea because you end up eating decisive strikes and there's no pressure on the other survivors.
Also I completely disagree with the sentiment that it wouldn't be helpful to higher skill/playtime players, quite often i'll see streamers like Otzdarva and TrU3Ta1ent that have thousands of hours and are relatively high skill going "this is they're last hook right? oh its not, damm thats bad for me, it was the other Claudette".
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@deckyr said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1993268#Comment_1993268
what "bad habit" are you talking about here. getting kills?? winning??
Ah yes, Rule 1 of the Survivor rule book, "Killers aren't allowed to kill Survivors because its not fun for the Survivors"
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@Hex_Llama said:
This still bugs me, too. If you're tunneling someone, you don't need a display to remind you. You just go back to the hook and chase the only person you've been hooking. If you're not tunneling, a hook counter can help you avoid railroading one person or help you tell the difference between survivors who have similar skins.
Giving the hook display to survivors encourages them to protect players who are on death hook -- that's fine, but, if you're going to do that, I think the info should be available to both sides.
hard agree with you there.
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@JasmineDragon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2020979#Comment_2020979
from my experience I remember who I hooked and when. When Im focusing on my objectives as a surv its easy enough to miss a hook on someone else. Idk
Everyone's memory works differently but I still think my point stands that Killers have more information to focus on than the Survivors and if both are trying to keep track of hooks mentally it's easier for the Survivors.
killers have to focus on:
- Rough locations of 4 opponents
- Different generators progress
- 16 different opponent perks
- which Opponents may be aware of active totems
- keys in play
- and 4 opponents hook states
Survivors have to focus on:
- Rough locations of 1 opponent
- rough generator locations
- 4 different opponent perks
- and 3 teammates hook states
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@Kirkylad said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2019406#Comment_2019406
Because BHVR have said no so they aren't going to put it into the game.
That's terrible reasoning, they've changed they're mind on too many features to keep count of due to player feedback.
@Kirkylad said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2019492#Comment_2019492
I was around for all those things but they didn't promote and unhealthy playstyle for the game which is something they have always avoided. Seeing as they and other members of the community believe this will promote that I really don't think it's something that they would consider doing.
those things 100% did promote unhealthy playstyles for the game, they encouraged Survivors to play around killer shack or other loops with windows and just non stop god loop them safe in the knowledge the killer couldnt catch them which encouraged killers to tunnel and camp when they got the opportunity as playing normally wasn't a viable way of getting kills.
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@Kirkylad said:
The devs have said it's something then don't want because it promotes tunneling in their opinion. Besides I've never had an issue remembering who's been hooked and how many times, it's pretty easy to keep track of.
Everyone's memory works differently and Killers have a lot of information they need to be keeping track of, much more than Survivors do,
So even If memory of hook states is going to be lorded as part of a killer's general skill ceiling why shouldn't that also apply to survivors?
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@danielmaster87 said:
I'm glad this discussion is still on. There is no reason the killer shouldn't be able to see individual hook counters if survivors can.
fingers crossed it doesn't go unnoticed.
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@Jacoby2041 said:
I wish the killer had it, but at least the killer's hook counter can give you a tiny bit of info. Like if everyone's alive and you have 4 sections missing then you know they're all on death hook, or if no one's been to struggle yet and you have 4 sections filled then you know you've hooked everyone once. It doesn't give much info for specific survivors but it can kinda help you keep track if you're not paying attention (which I often do, I like to use as little of my brain as possible)
The point is you shouldn't have to do the mental gymnastics.
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@twistedmonkey said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2015474#Comment_2015474
In your circumstance yes it's the smartest play but at the same time it should not be promoted to be the play to always use from the start.
It's about choices and why strats like camping and tunnelling will always have a place in the game but at the same time they put in ways to try and stop them from being overused.
please could you give an example where this even could be used "from the start"
Because it sounds like your envisioning killer's choosing to tunnel one person from the start, which as I've explained a killer so inclined is already given all the information they could possibly need to do that, the hook counter would not change anything.
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@ShamelessPigMain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2013334#Comment_2013334
Well I think the idea was that killers have a separate perspective from survivors, and since hooks concern the survivors more than the killer, it was just a minor QoL disadvantage.
In no world do hooks concern the Survivors more than the Killer.
The Survivors objective in the trial is to repair generators and avoid being hooked so they don't die.
The Killers objective in the trial is to prevent the generators being repaired and hook survivors to kill them.
Saying giving Survivors the hook counter but not the killers is fine because its "just a minor QoL disadvantage" is like saying it'd be fine to take away the Survivors generator counter because its just a minor QoL disadvantage.
Yet i bet the community would be up in arms if that happened.
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@Seraphor said:
As someone who doesn't like to tunnel if I can help it. Having survivor hook states displayed would allow me to avoid tunnelling.
Instead, I often inadvertently tunnel, especially if there's multiple of the same character, and then get accused of tunnelling...
I think it's much easier to remember one survivor and tunnel that one anyway, regardless of hookstate information, than it is to remember how many hooks all four survivors have, so that you can get an optimal number of hooks. So tunnellers gonna tunnel anyway but non-tunnellers have a much harder time avoiding it.
Agreed, I just wish the Dev's would have the insight to see it this way.
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@JasmineDragon said:
I stand by thinking no one should have this information. It isnt a skill ceiling thing, its remembering at the very most 8 pieces of information. I always felt that if I forgot what state someone was on that it was my fault. Im kinda okay with survs having it because it is sometimes harder for them to remember this information given they werent actively a part of it happening and could have been focused on something else, but it still seems kinda unnecessary
Realistically the Dev's aren't going to take away the hook information from the Survivors now they've given it, with they're goal of bring solo play up to SWF level, so if they're going to provide the information to Survivors they should be doing the same to Killers.
And i'd argue that its harder for Killers to remember this information given that they have much more information to focus on than the Survivors.
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@Unicorn said:
Why does this affect a Killers gameplay? I’m confused.
Killers having the separated hook UI would be a good quality of life addition.
letting them avoid accidentally tunneling and ending up eating a decisive strike, prioritize who to chase later in the game and to prevent Killers wasting they're perk tokens or powers (e.g. Pig putting a reverse bear trap on a death hook Survivor)
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@Koukdw said:
For the same reason hook and generator aura aren't shown to survivor. Different role, different information.
It's one of the way to balance the game bringing solo closer to swf.
No, Generator aura's aren't shown to Survivors by default for the same reason Survivor auras aren't shown to Killers by default, because finding those things are part of they're objective and would make they're objective too easy. (and hook aura's are more hidden just to prevent visual clutter)
hook counts is information known to both sides anyway, the UI widget just means you don't have to keep a mental note of it on top of the other information you need to be thinking about.
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@twistedmonkey said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1998680#Comment_1998680
Not really as one is to try and close the gap by your words which is something the community is asking for while the other can help promote a play style which I don't think the devs want to be more of go to strat than it already is.
Unless the dev's plan to overhaul many of the core game mechanics, like Gen speeds, exit gates being 99'd, etc, which they haven't made any statements suggesting so, expecting killers to 12 hook every game especially in red ranks is unreasonable.
In most well match made games the killer choosing to chase someone with no hook states over someone that's got 2 when all four survivors are alive and there's not many gen's can be the difference between 2+ kills and none, and that is they're goal after all to get as many kills as possible.
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@ShamelessPigMain said:
Really, I think that it's just unnecessary. The accumulative sum hook counter is enough for me, and I think that keeping track of survivors' hook states should be an obligation of the killer. That being said, I wouldn't be opposed to giving them an analogous hook counter, since it really doesn't change much when you can mentally tally hooks for individual survivors, but I wouldn't be jumping to add one.
Its not a massive thing and Killers can live without it but its just silly that a nice quality of life feature was given to Survivors but then purposely not given to Killers without valid reasoning.
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Been making a case for this for a while.
@madminer95 said:
I made the suggestion here:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/226933/buff-the-killer-hook-ui
But I've yet to hear a good reason against providing Killers the same hook information as Survivors.
for the sake of preventing repeat responses please fully read the suggestion post and i'll put points and counterpoints I've seen so far below.
Killers would use the information to tunnel.
A Killer inclined to tunnel is already told the Survivor they are hooking is dead on they're next hook by them beginning to struggle and the "entity summoned" score event.
Even if it wouldn't encourage tunneling it would encourage better target prioritization.
Giving Survivors the hook state information allows them to effectively prioritize preventing the killer getting kills by body blocking and not wasting time hanging around for a save if the person being hooked is on death hook.
If memory of hook states is going to be lorded as part of a killer's general skill ceiling why shouldn't that also apply to survivors?
The hook counter was only made to bring solo Survivor communication more in line with SWF.
It's generally accepted that SWF communication imbalances the game. As quality of life adjustments are made to improve solo Survivor communication, logical corresponding counterbalances need to be made for killers to prevent killers experience being made miserable, further increasing Survivor queue times as less killers play.
X community collected statistics show killers get 4K's more often than not so should be nerfed
While i wouldn't trust stats from small sample sizes since even the Dev's stats often are meaningless like the ones that showed nurse was the worst killer in the game with pig being fourth best.
This is a horror franchise 1v4 game, The killers are supposed to feel powerful and even if they're power needs toning down over all this particular feature is not the place to be doing that.
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@[Deleted User] said:
1) It is very easy to miss information about hook state while playing killer. There's a lot to focus on and I'm sure most people aren't focusing closely on that. Plus, if you're going to argue that things like "Entity Summoned" BPs are enough for killers to track hook states, why are you also complaining about the HUD not doing it for them? At least killers chase and hook every single survivor that ends up on a hook. Survivors, especially when solo, would have to get the information entirely from the HUD. It's doable, but it's certainly harder to keep straight.
2) Tunneling is frustrating and unfun for survivors, so it is something the game tries to discourage. That's one reason why perks like BT and DS are so strong. Since survivors have every incentive to stop tunneling, because it keeps the whole team alive longer, providing them this hook state information allows them to proactively work to avoid it, which in turn results in better gameplay. Killers have the opposite incentive, though; if you kill one survivor early it's a massive advantage for the killer. So, providing them this same information just increases the likelihood of an average killer saying "oh damn that Dwight's on death hook, he's dead next time I see him". That can certainly still happen if the killer is paying attention, but not having that information on the HUD will also clearly discourage it. Meanwhile, the overall hook counter is useful for encouraging hooking survivors (as opposed to slugging), so it also manages to push killers towards more engaging gameplay.
3) SWF communication does not make the game imbalanced. It's specifically the gap between SWF and solo. If SWF couldn't gain much of an advantage from their communication, perhaps because solo already had the information that would normally be communicated, then the communication itself wouldn't be an issue. Adding hook state information to the HUD does close the gap between SWF and solo because hook state information is something that SWFs commonly share with each other. Pretty much anything that shrinks that information gap is a good thing for game balance and this is no exception.
I don't feel that killer strength has much to do with queue times at the moment, as I have said at length in other posts, in large part because there isn't any good evidence that killers are underperforming. I think it's much more likely that things like console performance, which is worse for killers and time of day (survivors who play with their friends are more likely to log on in the evenings when everyone is free) are to blame for the bad queue times in prime time. I'm sure there are other factors as well, like some people being turned off from killer by toxic post-game chats. Plus, think about it logically - who says that a perfectly balanced asymmetric game will always have a perfect ratio of players on either side? One side might just be disproportionately more interesting for the general public. Like lets say killers had to race to roll a boulder up a hill before survivors could drink a pina colada in a hot tub. The killers might finish pushing their boulder first 68% of the time but that doesn't mean anyone's going to choose that over the pina coladas.
Regardless, though, let's assume that giving solo survivors this added information is enough to hurt game balance to the point where the killer side is underperforming. This is still a good thing. In this case we would require some buffs for the killer side, but the newly-shrunk gap between SWF and solo means that when the game is rebalanced SWF will have less of an advantage and solo will have less of a disadvantage. That results in better experiences for everyone: SWF gets more competitive matches, solo gets stomped less, and killer doesn't need to dread those elusive four-man depip squads as much as before.
1) It is very easy to miss information about hook state while playing killer. There's a lot to focus on and I'm sure most people aren't focusing closely on that. Plus, if you're going to argue that things like "Entity Summoned" BPs are enough for killers to track hook states, why are you also complaining about the HUD not doing it for them? At least killers chase and hook every single survivor that ends up on a hook. Survivors, especially when solo, would have to get the information entirely from the HUD. It's doable, but it's certainly harder to keep straight.
I haven't said that things like "Entity Summoned" BPs are enough for killers to track hook states, I've said that someone who is inclined to tunnel already has that information to easily keep track of a single survivors hook status.
And yes Killers do have a lot to focus on, more so than Survivors, so if its a matter of skill that Killers need to keep track why give it for free to Survivors?
2) Tunneling is frustrating and unfun for survivors, so it is something the game tries to discourage. That's one reason why perks like BT and DS are so strong. Since survivors have every incentive to stop tunneling, because it keeps the whole team alive longer, providing them this hook state information allows them to proactively work to avoid it, which in turn results in better gameplay. Killers have the opposite incentive, though; if you kill one survivor early it's a massive advantage for the killer. So, providing them this same information just increases the likelihood of an average killer saying "oh damn that Dwight's on death hook, he's dead next time I see him". That can certainly still happen if the killer is paying attention, but not having that information on the HUD will also clearly discourage it. Meanwhile, the overall hook counter is useful for encouraging hooking survivors (as opposed to slugging), so it also manages to push killers towards more engaging gameplay.
I've already explained plenty of times how the separated hook counter wouldn't encourage specifically tunneling (and i gave a comprehensive definition for tunneling in the suggestion post), what it would encourage is good prioritization, which unlike tunneling is perfectly reasonable and shouldn't be frowned upon. like in your example its not unreasonable for the killer after chasing and hooking a meg to choose to chase the Dwight with two hook states rather than a Claudette that has hidden most of the game and has no hook states, spreading hooks too thin and not securing a kill can cost the killer the whole game.
3) SWF communication does not make the game imbalanced. It's specifically the gap between SWF and solo. If SWF couldn't gain much of an advantage from their communication, perhaps because solo already had the information that would normally be communicated, then the communication itself wouldn't be an issue. Adding hook state information to the HUD does close the gap between SWF and solo because hook state information is something that SWFs commonly share with each other. Pretty much anything that shrinks that information gap is a good thing for game balance and this is no exception.
Your of a minority that thinks that SWF communication doesn't imbalance the game. a vaguely competent SWF can use they're communication to exponentially increase the difficultly of the game for the Killer and for that reason when bringing solo play up to SWF level, logical corresponding counterbalances need to be made for killers at the same time, and for this feature what makes most sense is to give killers the same UI.
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@Munqaxus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1995066#Comment_1995066
Again, it's not about killers, it's about solo queue players and evening the disparities between solo play and SWFs so the game is easier to balance.
Let's narrow the gap between solo play and SWF play so the game can start being balanced better.
Since features to bring solo play up to SWF level could take months or years to implement its unreasonable to take the mindset of adding those features piece by piece and then re-balancing for killers after,
logical corresponding counterbalances need to be made for killers at the same time, and for this feature what makes most sense is to give killers the same UI
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@Dustin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1984885#Comment_1984885
If I want to tunnel someone to death I'm going to always remember how many hooks they have - Usually it's when I try to 2 hook everyone where I forget. I won't ever forget if I want a survivor to die. If I want that survivor dead they're going to die. If anything I'm more likely to tunnel not being able to remember who I've not hooked yet.
Legit a hook counter will only help people play nicer it's not going to encourage tunneling anymore than it already happens.
exactly, chances are the separated hook counter would somewhat reduce tunneling.
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Been making a case for this for a while.
@madminer95 said:
I made the suggestion here:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/226933/buff-the-killer-hook-ui
But I've yet to hear a good reason against providing Killers the same hook information as Survivors.
for the sake of preventing repeat responses please fully read the suggestion post and i'll put points and counterpoints I've seen so far below.
Killers would use the information to tunnel.
A Killer inclined to tunnel is already told the Survivor they are hooking is dead on they're next hook by them beginning to struggle and the "entity summoned" score event.
Even if it wouldn't encourage tunneling it would encourage better target prioritization.
Giving Survivors the hook state information allows them to effectively prioritize preventing the killer getting kills by body blocking and not wasting time hanging around for a save if the person being hooked is on death hook.
If memory of hook states is going to be lorded as part of a killer's general skill ceiling why shouldn't that also apply to survivors?
The hook counter was only made to bring solo Survivor communication more in line with SWF.
It's generally accepted that SWF communication imbalances the game. As quality of life adjustments are made to improve solo Survivor communication, logical corresponding counterbalances need to be made for killers to prevent killers experience being made miserable, further increasing Survivor queue times as less killers play.
X community collected statistics show killers get 4K's more often than not so should be nerfed
While i wouldn't trust stats from small sample sizes since even the Dev's stats often are meaningless like the ones that showed nurse was the worst killer in the game with pig being fourth best.
This is a horror franchise 1v4 game, The killers are supposed to feel powerful and even if they're power needs toning down over all this particular feature is not the place to be doing that.
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@TheWarNung said:
I know you're poo-pooing the "it would encourage killers to tunnel" argument, but I think your reasoning is flawed.
Not all killers have learned the skills needed to remember which survivor is on death hook.
For less experienced killers, being given extra knowledge on which survivor is nearly dead and which hasn't been hooked at all is going to explicitly encourage them to chase just a single survivor and ignore everyone else.
Yes, some killers do that anyways, but most don't at the higher ranks because it's more fun for everyone (not to mention it's a better strategy to split pressure). It's better not to encourage newer killers to fall into bad habits.
the separated hook counter docent explicitly encourage tunneling. certainly not any more than currently provided information does, If a less experienced Killer is of the mindset to tunnel one Survivor and ignore all the others, the addition of the separated hook counter wont make any difference they are already told the Survivor they are hooking is dead on they're next hook by them beginning to struggle and the "entity summoned" score event.
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@Munqaxus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2000599#Comment_2000599
The Non-Tier 1 killers are already getting around a 70% 4ks a game. If anything, killers need to be nerfed.
This is what I've seen in patch 4.5.1
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/8WYDUT2D918Q/image.png
Here's 4.5.2
While i wouldn't trust stats from small sample sizes (especially since yours are just based around who you specifically are matched against and how you play), since even the Dev's stats often are meaningless like the ones that showed nurse was the worst killer in the game with pig being forth best.
This is a horror franchise 1v4 game, The killers are supposed to feel powerful and even if they're power needs toning down over all this particular feature is not the place to be doing that.