tjt85
tjt85
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I think Scout has lost a little strength as more Killers have been added to the mode. Urban evasion and fixated can be pretty good against a Huntress but she's not as common as she was (Huntress was like Legion in the first few iterations, basically in almost every trial). Obviously those perks aren't so strong against a Wesker or an Oni. The shadow class, more indoor maps and Ghostie being added has also made the Scout a little weaker too.
That said, they're easily my favourite class. I like sneaking around revealing the Killers to my teammates and their stealth focus fits into my play style well.
Though I have been playing Escapist more often this time around (especially on Switch because looping isn't really a thing on Switch). I've found it to be a solid strategy to pop a sprint burst to get yourself out of dodge and hope you don't accidentally run into the other Killer.
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I've got a few more. These ones are more serious suggestions:
Ash - El Jefe (It means "The Boss". Pablo calls him this often in Ash Vs Evil Dead)
Jeff - The Roadie
Vittorio - The Fog Wanderer
Nic Cage - The A-Lister
Gabe - The Troubleshooter
Taurie - The Forsaken Acolyte
Sable - The Seeker of Darkness
Yui - The Road Warrior
Laurie - The Sister of Evil (Halloween II timeline)
Ripley - The Last Survivor
Feng - The Shining Lion (her gamer tag. Kinda obvious, but it works).
Alan Wake - He has to be The Champion of Light, surely.
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@OrangeBear said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3986958#Comment_3986958
Yes its boring. It's not fun for killers either. Why should it be kept?
Because it wasn't that impactful outside a handful of DBD creator YouTube videos and SWF groups. I can think of a lot of things I don't find fun in 2V8, doesn't mean they should be removed because I don't like them. I don't care for doing gens quickly, but let's get rid of 3 dash Wesker and supersonic Oni while we're at it. They're not fun to go up against either. I'd rather argue for everyone to get busted, broken "unfun" things to play with in 2V8, so long as they are available for both sides. And In that spirit, I'd also like BHVR to revert Legion to their previous state because they were more fun to play that way.
Besides, I think it's better for BHVR to add new classes instead of fussing about with the old ones to encourage some diversity. The fact that they've added wiretap and blast mine to the Guide class means these abilities won't be available for a new Survivor class when they could have been. How many iterations do we have to go through before Survivors get a new class?
Though I do appreciate the effort was focused on the play while you wait feature this time, we are 13 Killers in yet we still have the same 4 Survivor classes. It's getting old.
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@Hex_Ignored said:
Fully agreed. This should have been a new class. Survivors are already starved for content in 2v8, so I don't get why they are replacing one class with a completely different one rather than just keeping the old one as is and just adding the new one. Having more options to choose from would have been great.
I feel the same way. They could have kept the Guide same as it was and introduced a totally new class. It's not an issue for there to be a "gen rush" class so long as Survivors have plenty of other options to choose from. I suspect for most Survivors, sitting on a gen will almost always be the most boring aspect of DBD's game play loop. And while the new Guide is a little bit more appealing to me, the only two classes I actually enjoy are the Scout and the Escapist. 2V8 is crying out for more Survivor variety, imo.
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Meg - The Meghead
Mikaela - The Boon Meg
Sable - The Basement Meg
Leon - The GentleMeg
Edit, forgot one:
Nea - The Beamer Meg
That's all the different kinds of Megs that will kill you in your games (and therefore deserve a Killer title). I'm allowed to say this because I'm a Meg main and we recognise our own.
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I've always preferred Chaos Shuffle to be honest. The 2 VS 8 Survivor experience is just too samey for me. I get the impression BHVR think new Killers in each iteration is adding variety for Survivor players, but getting two tapped by a Blight / Wesker or a Trapper / Huntress is all the same to me. I want new classes. The changes to guide are neat I guess, but they're still the most boring class and I still won't be playing as them all that often. I would have preferred a new class based around crafting items like flash bangs, chem traps and blast mines, though I appreciate much of the dev time was spent on the play while you wait feature this time around.
The only reasons I play 2 VS 8 Survivor is while I'm queuing to play Killer or to grind for BP. Even the Killer aspect has lost some of its luster for me. Legion got some nerfs that have sucked the fun out of playing them a little. Playing an absurdly overpowered version of the Killer is a big part of the appeal for me. It was such a blast to zip around the entire map to try for that elusive final hit down but they play a lot more like 1 VS 4 Legion now.
Don't get me wrong. It's fun for what it is. But it doesn't have the variety of Chaos Shuffle to keep it fresh.
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It's an awesome feature… Except for the fact that it hasn't actually solved the issue with the queue times. They are still as long as ever.
Sure, playing Survivor while you wait is way better than sitting there twiddling your thumbs, but you still have to play 2 Survivor games on average for every 1 Killer game (assuming all goes well and you don't get kicked from the server at some point). And I've kinda realised that I don't really enjoy playing 2 VS 8 Survivor. It's become so incredibly stale to me, I might just read a book while waiting in the Killer queue instead.
Anyway, it's still a fantastic addition to the mode for players who enjoy playing both roles and I'm glad they added it.
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@MDRSan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3986047#Comment_3986047
The complaint isn’t that Legion themselves are broken - it’s Legion + another killer that’s broken. You weren’t playing a 2v8 match when you were paired with that AFK Billy - you were in a 1v8. That’s not going to go well for you, or any killer.
Legion is balanced around wounding a lot of people quickly but downing them slower. Of course it’s going to be a pretty strong combo when you put them together with another killer that’s actively playing the game. Especially a Legion/Oni team - something I’ve been fortunate enough to not face yet.
My main argument is that everything is busted in 2 VS 8 and that's kinda the whole point. A couple of medics in the lobby can undo all the Legion's pressure in an instant. The Scout can rebuild pallets that can be used to easily stun them out of their power early. Escapist can make them whiff with Sprint Burst on demand. I wouldn't put up with a 3 dash Wesker or super speed Oni in any other mode (I loath these Killers in 2 VS 8). There are so many things in 2 VS 8 that aren't fair or balanced. So if everyone else in the lobby gets to play with their broken toys, why not Legion as well? In my view, 2 VS 8 is not a serious game mode that needs careful balancing like 1 VS 4. The stakes are low and the games are fast. It has to be this way, otherwise few would stick around to be double teamed by a Blight / Nurse combo.
I honestly think BHVR nerfed them because of a very vocal part of the community that just hate this Killer and won't accept any version of them in the mode. We will see the same complaints when BHVR get around to adding The Clown, The Ghoul or Skull Merchant (if her rework is not well received).
As it happens, my initial impression is that Legion haven't been nerfed to the point they're no longer worth playing in 2 VS 8. They are still fun but definitely weaker than they were. Anyone who's actually played them in 2 VS 8 will tell you that if the Survivors do all the right things, it can be very difficult to get any pressure going. And they're half a Killer in this mode without a good partner.
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I got to play a grand total of one Legion game before the servers totally conked out. I was paired with an AFK Billy; 8 hooks 0K if you were wondering. The Survivors were barely even trying and to be honest neither was I.
I think a Nurse could hold their own in a 1 VS 8 if they were skilled enough and I've seen a Huntress streamer do the same. But nevermind that, I guess Legion is really the problem and not these other Killers.
Sorry, but there's no way you guys have played enough 2 Vs 8 games against the nerfed Legion to come to any reasonable opinion on them yet (though I'll admit some of you are at least honest enough to say you don't want them in the mode. There's no point arguing with a hater).
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I might have spoken too soon. Don't think the queues for either side 2V8 are working here in the UK. Could be temporary thing and maybe servers are down? I don't know. The estimated queue time thingy has also disappeared now, too.
Oh well, if they do finally get this to work I think it will be great. I got to play a Survivor game before unfortunately loading into a 2V8 Killer game with a Billy that decided to go AFK. But the actual system in place is really good (when it works).
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@Dem34888 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3985815#Comment_3985815
In a party the same thing with a friend, we wait for 15 minutes, there is no pop-up
Yeah, I'm now watching a streamer that is partied up and it doesn't seem to work for them either. It's a little disappointing but understandable. It's a new feature after all, so there were bound to be issues.
However, I did just reboot my game and I finally got the pop up, so could be worth trying that.
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@Mediva said:
first queue was 14 minutes. No popup, no button. Second queue right now is 16 minutes. again no popup. eu, netherlands, on pc, solo queuing
Same. Estimated 24 min queue time which is obviously quite a wait but still but no pop-up. Tried to requeue a few times but no joy. Maybe it doesn't work if you soloq?
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I'm curious, what's not fun about Legion?
I know lots of people dislike going against Legion, but they're usually considered pretty fun to play as (especially if you can chain enough hits to get a 5th hit down). And their play style isn't all that different to Chucky and Ghoul in my opinion, who you also rated highly.
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I'm not convinced a lot of players would ever accept Legion having a stronger 1V1 power. Their power allows them to get an easy first hit, so anything that would help them get an easier down with a follow up basic attack would likely just annoy Survivors. Besides, we've seen BHVR try to make a 1V1 Legion twice before with OG Chucky and The Ghoul and I think we all know how poorly recieved those Killers have been.
In 1V4, You kinda need to dedicate most of your loadout to chase perks and add-ons in order to have an OK but not great antiloop power (enfury / iri button with Julie's mixtape or the scratched ruler, for example). But this weakness can be ofset by the information, slowdown and mobility they get from their Frenzy hits. A pure 1v1 Legion would strip those core aspects of their power away and you're no longer really playing as Legion anymore. Don't get me wrong, I love chase Legion. Chase Legion is my favourite way to play, but it's maybe not their most effective playstyle.
So yeah, I just don't see this being a popular approach with either Legion enjoyers or Legion haters.
All that said, I never felt there was a serious problem with the way Legion were implemented into 2V8. And I'm worried the nerfs will make them the worst support role Killer in the mode besides slinger. Plus, I'm also probably a bit biased in favour of them because they're my Killer, so take all that into account.
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I recently made a similar decision of my own. I'll still play Survivor, but only to queue for 2V8 / Chaos Shuffle or to get the odd quest done. My days of regular Survivor games are over.
I'm sorry to go on and on about the Fog Vial nerfs, but the fact that they nerfed such a fun item at the earliest possible opportunity told me everything I needed to know. It made me realise that BHVR's future approach to Survivor will mostly be about mitigating the negative (e.g. tunnelling / camping / slugging) and not about making the role more fun to play. Even the recent "fun" perks are either very weak or require way too many activation requirements to get any value. It's not that I don't understand the reasons why, because in this game someone else's fun is often mirrored by the otherside's frustrations. But for me as a solo Survivor, the bad experiences are currently outweighing the good and it feels like there's not much I can bring to the table to ofset them.
I think SWF groups will still be able to have fun clowning around with their friends (from what I can tell of my Killer games, most remaining Survivors are at least in a duo). But it's solo or nothing for me since none of my friends would ever play this game. So yeah, I guess I'm a Killer main now.
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@Tamo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/453802/fog-vials-have-a-max-of-2-charges-now
Couldn't agree more. Went from a fun & a bit silly infinite item usage to nerfing the item effect to then further ruining it by adding a charges implement. Not just any amount though TWO a whole 2 charges. WOW! Amazing, back to Toolbox gen rushing & Medkit easy resets & mid chase shenanigans. People make the joke of this is why we can't have nice things but they gave us something fun & have done nothing but ruin it. I loved the idea of an infinite item just with a cooldown I thought that was just cool. I would love to know why we didn't just increase the cooldown? Why wasn't that the solution. But who are we to complain, survivors shouldn't have fun anyway, that's why Clown is still running around like Sonic every game.
I swear BHVR are allergic to trying the most obvious solution to any given issue. This surely should have been the initial nerf given to the vials.
It's a small thing, but I can't help wonder how much extra development time might have been saved addressing the common complaint Survivors were "spamming" fog vials by adding a longer cool down vs completely changing the item to be charge based.
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@MoZo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3983120#Comment_3983120
before i get into the details, i want to say that the large main reason (and i know you have reported this to the team and they are very aware of this) is the opacity is very, very inconsistent on the map you’re on. the difference between the opacity on dead dawg saloon and on coldwind farm is night and day. some maps (like coldwind), if i brought a fog vial into the match, i would probably only use it once or twice before realizing it is completely useless on those maps because of the bug with the opacity. i think if that issue got addressed and fixed before the opacity changes in HF1, we could’ve had a much clearer and better discussion on the density of the opacity of he fog vials.
onto the answers to your questions:
- the charges addition is what makes it feel (IMO) gutted/useless. before this change, with the nerfs to the opacity introduced in HF1, the killer could very much track me in the fog vial even with the Potent Extract add on. this changed made the fog vials’ main use to use them more from a distance to give yourself a better chance to either pre run or preemptively stealth once the killer got in the fog. with the charges nerf, you only get to use it 2 times which means A) you can’t even use it once per chase (usually you get chased 3 times a match if you go down every chase) and B) it heavily reduces the utility aspect of the perk and forces you to only use it in the best scenarios possible since you only have 2 uses for the WHOLE game.
2. the one specific change i would make to them ( i know this is a big one) is to revert them back to their release iteration with the bug of the opacity being different based on the map fixed. i stated above that the bug is the biggest reason with them (imo) but i feel that if that bug was fixed, we would have a much better picture of what fog vials are intended to look like. the community always, and i mean always complains when something is added or changed in the game, it happens every update. the release version of fog vials should have been kept in the game at least until the next update (9.2.0) or the 9.3.0 mid-chapter to give the new toy syndrome time to wear off. we had no idea how the new item would play in the long run and it seems the fog vials skipped the usual balancing pattern of waiting a couple updates before adjusting to see how it plays out.
I second this. We still don't know what the intended opacity a base kit fog vial is meant to be because there's no consistency across the maps. I'd go as far as to say I don't actually know what fog vials are intended to do anymore. Are they for losing the Killer in chase? Or are they more like a portable stealth perk that you pop once you've lost the Killer's line of sight? Perhaps they're for disguising your aura & location from long range aura reads and ranged powers? The vials really needed more time for player experimentation, since unlike toolboxes and med-kits, it's not immediately obvious to players how they are supposed to get value from the item.
It would help for us to know what BHVR wants players to use the item for. Then we as a community will be able to give you better quality feedback about them. Right now, I don't know what fog vials are supposed to do because they don't seem to do anything at all particularly well.
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2 charges and no compensatory buffs. Yikes. Can't say I'm surprised, but I was at least a little bit hopeful they would make them a bit stronger now that they have limited charges.
Vials have gone from an item that got me excited to play Survivor again to something I'd rather they'd remove from our bloodwebs.
Honestly a colossal waste of development time and effort.
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@UndeddJester said:
I feel like the Traveller, Gozer the Gozarian wins out of Vigo personally in terms of being iconic, and has more of a power showcase in its appearance to pick from to help define a power, and can even fall back on Zool and Vinz Clortho if needed.
That said, my primary issue with Ghostbusters however is, while I'm a huge old school Ghostbusters fan (had all the merch and even watched the cartoon religiously), I don't feel I can put it in the same line with the icons of horror showcase that DBD is.
It's already stretching a fair way to accomodate the likes of Lara, Nicholas Cage and Kaneki, which are all cases you can squint and say it kinda works.... but Ghostbusters is an unequivocal comedy. It's a similar bag to adding Scooby Doo, which is an equally funny and cool idea... but I dunno, when you have someone like Freddy Kruegar, a child #########, malevolent sadist and brutal murderer (even if its the watered down 2010 version)... putting beloved comedy characters against them to get butchered feels a bit off...
Evil Dead and Chucky are horror comedy, so I don't see the comedy aspect as a disqualifying factor. But as much as I love Ghostbusters, I can't seriously argue that it has all that much to do with horror. It's definitely more "horror adjacent" but then I don't think that really matters anymore. We're already gone beyond that requirement with the addition of Lara Croft, Nic Cage, D&D and FNAF.
Ghostbusters still tops my wish list of IPs I'd personally love to see in the game, regardless. As much as I'd love to see a full chapter, I'd honestly take anything be that cosmetics, a Feng Min cosplay or even just a crappy no ghost logo T-shirt. That said, I suspect I'm way older than the average DBD gamer. I grew up with Ghostbusters in the same way that gen z grew up with FNAF.
So while I'm sure it's still reasonably popular with the recent movies and all, it's probably not a pop culture giant with the younger folk like some of the more recent DBD chapters have been. Since that's been the trend with chapters lately, I'm not sure Ghostbusters is an IP that BHVR would seek out.
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Oof… That was rough to watch. Even without the DDOS attacks, you couldn't hear what the special guest was saying half the time.
If they try something like this again, they might need to do it pre-recorded instead of a livestream because that kinda went as badly as it could have.
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When I'm playing a new Killer for the first time, I know I'm going to be in for a bruising. I don't even think about winning, I only think about learning.
Once you have a single Killer that reaches a certain MMR threshold, all your other Killers will be brought up to an MMR where the system expects you to play every other Killer reasonably well. I think this is silly, because learning how to be a Legion or a Ghost Face means absolutely nothing in preparing to play as a Huntress. Between a lot of Killers, there are often very few transferable skills besides the very basics of the role. I've found the only way to fix that is to eat a few losses.
I've been trying to adept my Trapper for a while now and I can feel the MMR yoyo from difficult opponents to easier ones. I lose until I start winning again and so the cycle repeats. I've gotten pretty close 2 times, but hatch escapes denied me. There are also all the times that MMR doesn't function because of player number differences and backfilling (which let's be honest here, is really most of the time).
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I wouldn't change much about Legion. However, with the recent trend for Killers with multiple powers, I'd like some new abilities to interact with Survivor gameplay aspects to lean more into their Survivor like ability to vault pallets.
For example, I really enjoy being able to jump scare Survivors with the snowmen during the winter event, so I'd really like a similar ability based around lockers. You could press the active ability button to hide in a locker. Upon exiting the locker, for 6 seconds The Legion gains the undetectable status and a longer lunge. The ability then goes into cooldown for 60 seconds. Not sure about the numbers, but the basic idea is there. I know this was something that BHVR considered when designing The Legion, but they decided to develop the idea into an entirely new Killer instead.
I also think it would be neat to be able to steal at least one item from a chest per trial. Opening a chest will reveal a spray painted tag of The Legion's logo on the inside to let the Survivor know the item's been stolen.
Neither of these ideas are probably worth BHVR's development time, wouldn't be all that impactful and maybe I'd be the only person who would appreciate them. But I think they'd be fun and would definitely be worth a few laughs.
As for something that Legion might actually get one day, I just want base-kit Frank's mixtape and see it reworked to be a Frenzy vault speed add-on.
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All this talk about charges vs unlimited use are mute points if the fog vials stay as nerfed as they are. They could give these items 10 charges and Survivors still won't be bringing them to trial, because every other item is more useful than a Fog Vial.
I think I probably got about 4 or 5 Fog Vial uses per trial on average. So if the vials are given a similar number of charges, then it's not going to feel much different to the "infinite" Fog Vials. Plus, Built to Last is a thing. So I agree with the OP on that point. That said, they might end up giving the vials less charges but for a much stronger effect. This would probably make the item something you would avoid buying in the blood web, but it might still be worth grabbing if you found one in a chest.
We also don't know if the Fog Vial will still go on cooldown even with charges, which will make them unappealing compared to a beamer (which you can use anytime). If I don't have Lightborn equipped, beamers are a lot more effective than fog vials against me because I don't use headphones. So if I get blinded at a pallet, then I often don't know where the Survivor has gone to and that will be enough time to reach the next pallet. There are more Killers out there playing casually like this than people might think (I can often tell which Killers are playing with headphones on and which ones aren't).
I don't know why BHVR didn't think to do something simpler like increase the cooldown time on the vials. Or they could even add a fogborn perk to the pool of general perks. I liked the idea of an item that recharges itself.
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@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979999#Comment_3979999
Yeah, I think it's very good perk for him.
Another thing is it helps you on those short rock loops, where he can otherwise struggle as 110% killer.I'll have to try adding Coup to my Deathslinger build.
I always liked Surge on Deathslinger because you can drag speared Survivors back into Surge range or pull them to where you'll be hitting multiple gens.
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@PetTheDoggo said:
Legion → Enduring (I love instadown under the pallet)
Deathslinger → Coup (It let's you shoot survivor over pallet and reach around even on bigger loops)
Oni → Unforseen (Easier first hit and fun surprise when angry)Another vote for Legion and Enduring. It synergises so well with their power and a couple of their add-ons. I also think Forever Entwined is goated on Legion because they can get max tokens so incredibly quickly (I use this perk a lot on them).
For Trapper I would say Corrupt Intervention, so he doesn't immediately lose early gens.
For Billy I would say Discordance. I honestly don't know how often other Billy's use this perk, I just know I get very good value whenever I run it.
For Myers I would say Monitor & Abuse, so he can get an absolutely tiny Tier II terror radius with the Dead Rabbit add-on.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979649#Comment_3979649
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/OFURXIMM2NNH/image.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/R9ENNJX069AJ/image.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/TLE0PHX57856/image.png
The gamma settings don't really make a difference.
When you see a super bright fog picture, it's probably because of a lighting effect in the map itself, and not the player's gamma settings.
I did not know that. I think I did see the affect being amplified by shaders somewhere but that's obviously quite different to in game setting (and could be map related too).
Thanks for clearing that up.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979575#Comment_3979575
Ghoul did not get an immediate grace period. BHVR literally gave Ghoul 25 nerfs before starting the grace period.
Likewise, it's absolutely fine for Fog Vials to get nerfs, before starting the grace period.
It's literally the same thing. The grace period for EVERYTHING IN THE GAME should start when BHVR is ready for it.
It's fair to point out all the nerfs that The Ghoul received shortly after release and yet he's still a consistently popular Killer. He hasn't been given the Chucky treatment by BHVR just yet.
But the Fog Vials… Yeah, they've reportedly all but disappeared. I'm not playing DBD at the moment because I'm not happy with the state of the game, but I do still watch streamers play and I've seen only one today. To be fair, the Survivor got decent value but the streamer had pretty high gamma settings, so I think that's why it was more effective (we know they work better on certain maps as well).
In any case, the community seems to think that it's pretty much dead in its current state.
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I think tier lists can be misleading because they tend to focus on the best possible performance of the Killer against the best possible group of Survivors. But as you know, that's not what really happens in most trials.
I'll talk about Legion because they're the Killer I have the most knowledge and experience with.
If they're going up against players with less than 100 hours, they're S tier. No question, they will destroy a lobby of newer players very easily.
Up against an average Solo Q or duo team or a casual SWF, they are a solid mid-tier Killer (high C maybe low B).
Up against the best loopers, who know the correct Legion counterplay, can communicate with each other and are bringing strong items / add-ons, Legion can be made the worst Killer in the game. No joke, they can sometimes be worse than Trapper against these teams. High D tier Killer at most (ahead of Trapper and Skull Merchant).
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@100PercentBPMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979535#Comment_3979535
if you hated Weave before, it may still be worth avoiding. I find items get picked up and put into corners less now, as they have their charges so people want to risk getting hit by Weave again.
Yeah, I can see that. Lots of Survivors like to play risky and get themselves chased, so that makes some sense.
I'm a creature of habit and I've played without items for so long now, I can't really see myself being an item guy. I tend to open chests in trial for most of my items, anyway. That way, it feels like a neat little bonus if you can escape with it and no loss if you do get sacrificed.
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As someone who never really bothered with items, I'll tell you some of my reasoning:
- I really hated Franklin's before the nerf and I hated it even more when Weave Attunement was added to the game. Bad enough to put me in a terrible mood if I had to go up against it. So no items = no problems! I might take items a bit more often now they don't lose charges, but maybe not because…
- I much prefer to bring perks to get stuff done (linked in part to my hatred of Franklin's). Why bring a med-kit which has limited charges when you can be an infinite med-kit with Botany Knowledge / Self-care?
- The only item I like to bring is the med-kit but it's bright red and makes hiding in bushes more difficult.
- Or the key, but teammates might dodge because they'll think I'm playing for hatch. I mean they're kinda right, because I am but only if things go south.
- It's a peace offering to the Killer. A signal to say I'm not super sweaty and hopefully, we'll get to play a less sweaty game as a result. A lot of Killers will dodge a lobby if they see 4 items, even if they would have been a good match up.
- I would be a fog vial enjoyer but don't see a good reason for taking it now except for the additional spooky vibes. And if I want to avoid cross map aura reading, I'll just hop in a locker like I always have and not risk giving my position away with a giant cloud of mist.
- I like hoarding stuff and event items are pretty, I guess..?
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@Linkdouken said:
I cannot help but feel like the majority of players that had a problem with fog vials were content creators or their fanbases as a lot of them are or believe they are at top MMR with no consideration for casual players that deserve something to help them avoid chases if they wish
The sad irony is that they were never going to be a super common item in "high MMR" anyway. Competitively minded players are almost always going to bring the strongest items to trial and I'm sure even the harshest fog vial critics will admit, the vials don't come close to toolboxes, med-kits or even flashlights in their potential effectiveness.
In theory, they might perform better in low MMR against less experienced / more casual Killers. But then again, there will be more than enough invocating Sables, urban evading Neas and Scoops Ahoy Stegulls in it for the memes to offset losing the odd chase or two because of a vial.
There was no reason at all to make them one tier above the old broken keys without an add-on in usefulness.
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After their recent buffs, I'm really happy with Legion at the moment. They might need more buffs in the future, but for now they're in a good place. They should be way down the list of priorities for BHVR, imo.
Personally, the major buffs I'd like to see are Frank's Mixtape to be made base-kit and for the add-on to be reworked into a Frenzy vault speed add-on. But that said, there are way bigger fish to fry right now.
Kaneki is probably a bit too strong in his current state, tbh. He does everything Legion does but better, but then he's also just as easy to use and better than much of the Killer roster as well.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979266#Comment_3979266
I’ve tested it with the fog offerings. It’s very RNG if it helps, because the fog offerings create very random puffs of fog.
As in sometimes, it doesn’t help at all, and sometimes the fog-offering fog will completely hide the survivor.
Thanks.
I suppose they could still be worth bringing (if you want to role the dice), but I wish they'd at least waited to fix their effects to be consistent across all maps before considering nerfs. If I'm being optimistic, these hasty nerfs might be temporary damage control that will be reversed once the vials have been given charges like every other item. I guess we'll see about that next week.
Maybe they found less Killers were queuing up and determined the Fog Vials were a reason for that. The streetwise bug and the current dumpster fire this patch has been overall might have more to do with players staying away, but what do I know…
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Has anyone tested these out with a reagent offering yet? And does that make any difference to their effectiveness? I'm hoping there's still some way to make the vials useful, because I've already spent millions of BP building up a stockpile of Fog Vials on my main.
Never been an item person, so it was a novelty to actually have something to spend my BP on and bring into trial (I only really take med-kits into Chaos Shuffle or when I put on silly meme/lore builds). Survivor was actually fun to play for 2 weeks but with these nerfs, it's back into Survivor retirement for me again.
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@AGM said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3978708#Comment_3978708
Except that in the past they've used it for add-ons, perks, and killers that granted unintended advantages but didn't necessarily impact the stability of the game, so I think a little consistency would have gone a long way.
I agree. If anything positive comes from all this it will (hopefully) be some consistency.
I would have hit the kill switch on Springtrap's invisibility bug, but we all know why they would have been very reluctant to do so.
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Funny thing is, I had a streamer try to show their audience the Streetwise exploit. But I had to laugh when I watched their VOD back, since they were unable to find a single chest and had wasted so much time by looking around for one.
I wouldn't have reported them for exploits even if it was actionable, because I was able to use the bugged Fire Up to increase my Legion's frenzy window vault speed for MONTHS before they finally fixed it (still use the perk a lot btw, because I like it). You can't tell if someone is using a perk because they like it or because of a lesser known exploit. I would argue this wouldn't have been such a huge problem if multiple content creators hadn't amplified and publicised it so much (it was only after this that I saw the perk being used a lot).
At the end of the day, it's on BHVR to catch stuff like this by doing their own internal bug hunting. But they don't. Because that's our job. We're the game's bug testers. That's the bigger issue for me. Things like this shouldn't be making it to the live servers.
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@Emeal said:
It sets a dangerous precedent, because it teaches the community if they keep yelling and screaming BHVR will capitulate.
Killswitches should only be used if something is a demonstrable problem, BHVR was calmly observing if their stats would prove Survivors would be getting any advantage from this. But the community would not have any of that, they felt hurt that someone might could have gotten an advantage and they would not stand for that.
What this means is, that every time in the future if something is bugged even if it is benign the whole feature must be Killswitched because of the ghosts of advantage is plaguing the minds of the users, which means every feature is probably deadlocked at release.
Though I dont hope BHVR will meaningfully change the Killswitch Process to cater to unproven advantages, that would be absurd and destroy the game instantly. All major Killers have a bug or two that could give an advantage in some situations, like Dracula its possible for a Survivor to get hit twice by the fire attack if the connection is bad. It happens very rarely, but nono killswitch it now.
What I do hope they do is that they allow their community managers to be more clear about the specific Killrates/ Winrates and Pickrates on a given problem, it would be great for me, because I respond well to stats. Other people might not, people might still be frustrated about problems that isn't happening. Which is somehow desperately close to real life politics.
The message to BHVR should be clear, tell us clearly if a bugged perk is performing too well on diffrent mmr levels, as that should be a clear indication that it should be killswitched.
Couldn't have said this better myself. It was my understanding that the Kill switch was for things that are genuinely game breaking. That is, game breaking in the sense that they cause a crash or can be used to grief players and hold them hostage (like the Flashlight / locker glitch).
Having an infinitely charged item is not in the same category as crashing the game or preventing someone from playing for an hour. So while I personally felt they should have kill switched these perks (as well as other bugs that arise and give unfair advantages), I can also understand why BHVR initially chose not to.
Weird thing is, we know they have player consultants. I wonder if they reached out to any of them to ask if they felt these bugs could become a much bigger problem. Maybe they could form part of a future new and improved kill switch system?
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3978619#Comment_3978619
I gave up survivor a few months back. I think the planned matchmaking improvements might help the role, but there's that pessimistic part of me that says they won't do what they need to do because it will make things harder for the competitive folk. And considering how quickly they've caved on fog vials, I dont hold much hope for whatever Phase 2 anti-tunnelling and anti-slugging they might be working on. But we'll see.
Me either.
My optimism for the QoL initiative has evaporated almost entirely by this point. Especially since their "solution" to hardcore slugging has been to give Survivors the option to DC without penalty as soon as the last Survivor hits the dirt. Gee BHVR, really spoiling us with that one.
There's also the recent inconsistent application of the Kill switch. Survivors had to play against the only killer in the game for weeks when Springtrap had a bug that made them invisible AND face the wrong direction when throwing his axe. But I guess the community didn't kick up enough of a stink, so we all just had to eat it up (For the record, I think Streetwise and Last Stand should have been kill switched the instant the bugs were discovered. I just didn't want to join the dogpile in saying so).
It's not so much about the vial itself, but BHVR's knee jerk turbo nerf to it. Really feels like they got baited into giving them premature early nerfs by players that don't really want to see vials in the game at all.
Anyway, I could go on but I've said my piece and I've got to pick my battles or else I'd never shut up!
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3978032#Comment_3978032
Putting my gen build back on as we speak. Commodious toolbox with wire spool and scraps, Built to Last, Prove Thyself, Deja Vu. These gens get done in five minutes. Join me.
I would, but I've been so frustrated with BHVR's treatment of the Survivor role of late, it's better for me to walk away from Survivor for the time being. If I do touch this game, I'm gonna stick to playing Legion and a handful of other Killers for now.
Honestly, they spend all that time developing the first interesting, unique, useful new item in years only to immediately turn it into blood web clutter you'd only bring for the "vibes" to give your endgame mori a bit of extra spooky atmosphere. Half the game is currently on fire, players don't even know what their intended opacity is meant to be because there's no consistency across the maps and yet they think now is the time to make balancing decisions about a goofy item we've had for no more than 2 weeks. I just… Ugh.
(can you tell I'm still mad about this?)
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@sinkra said:
Fog vials were the only thing making survivor gameplay bearable for me. If they're made useless then it's back to quitting until next 2v8.
Ditto. The next time I join a Survivor queue will be to wait in line to play 2 V 8 Killer.
I'm glad I still enjoy the Killer role, because this is the last straw for playing regular Survivor games for me. I guess I should have expected this, but the last two weeks of fun Survivor game play has reminded me how much I don't enjoy the role when there's nothing to counter all the moments when playing Survivor really isn't all that fun at all.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3977948#Comment_3977948
There was definitely a better way to make fog vials rather than "lmao robbing you of almost all your senses in a large area". The recharge was stupid and sound muffling was stupid. It's still gonna be good against killers that are walking to your area which has always been its best use case. It's still gonna be very good on indoor maps even mid chase.
So they'll still be good on the 6 indoor maps in the game. That's a bit like saying mirror Myers is good.
I thought the vials would be DOA but I guess I was wrong, it took BHVR two more weeks to reduce them to meme status. I like a meme perk / add-on, but let's not pretend these are still going to be "good".
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I'm so grumpy about this, I've got half the mind to be petty and bring the beefiest toolboxes that I can to every trial for the forseeable future.
I hardly ever used items before they added the vial, so I've got hundreds of these things to burn through.
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OK but like… Why now?
Can we have a patch where everything isn't completely broken to test these new items out first, please?
Why is this being done in a hotfix patch, as if this is something that really needs "fixing" right now? So disappointed by these changes. If they are to be limited, then surely their effects should be made stronger and not weaker. If they're not for helping you lose the Killer in chase, then what exactly are they for?
Since BHVR are in such a hurry to nerf things, can we also have an ETA on when they will be reverting the unpopular Clown changes?
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3977841#Comment_3977841
It's not bugged, it's just bugged for me. I complete the criteria to make it and it just doesn't generate in the locker. It's always been that way. I've never been able to use it. I haven't cared enough to try to solve the problem though.
Yeah the accidentally blinding teammates happens to me more than the killer dropping me when people do it. So I'm just like, "Cool, I'm getting hooked AND I can't see."
I don't mind losing to people who play fair and well. It's the 4-person slugfests and the tunnelers that kill my vibe. Same when I'm playing killer and I can't get one hook in without the whole team clustering around to body block or intercepting every little chase I attempt.
That's a shame and a very weird bug.
Probably something that support could help you with. But then again, knowing BHVR's spaghetti code, they might permanently equip No Mither on all of your Survivors trying to fix the issue or something else equally baffling could happen…
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3977652#Comment_3977652
Bless the meme builds. I'm so sad flashbang doesn't activate for me at all. Bought Leon for nothing.
I feel like you could learn looping with non-speed perks and that's about the same as no perks. I don't bring anything that helps me with looping/chase and I still win a good chunk of my chases. Recently, a lot of killers seem to get annoyed by my fog vials and Scene Partner clown combo and just don't even bother with chasing me haha
I didn't realise Flashbang was bugged. Wasn't gonna play today but thought I would test the build out and I got a Legion that DC'd because of ping issues, a Blight that tunnelled me out before I could get a single perk up and a Yui that unhooked me on death hook right in front of a Houndmaster who then tunnelled me out. So yeah, big regrets booting up the game and I wish I hadn't. Like I said, I'm trying to care less about winning or losing but it's difficult.
Tbh, wasn't really getting any flashbang value, so this is the one I would swap out for a healing perk and a fog vial. I'm more likely to accidentally flashbang my teamates when trying to heal them with a med-kit than to blind the Killer with it anyway.
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One of my favourite things to do in DBD is to come up with silly perk builds, for example this "Lara Craft" build that I came up with to replicate the crafting system in her survivor series of games:
Blast mine + Chem Trap + Flash bang + Diversion. Alternatively, you could swap out one of these perks for a self healing perk and bring a fog vial as a smoke grenade instead (since you can craft those in her games as well).
Is this a good build? No, it's a terrible, very unbalanced build likely to make me an easy target for an early tunnel out. So when I do run stuff like this, I accept that I'm probably not going to survive. Past a certain point, that's really the only way you can play with suboptimal perk load outs in this game (the same is true for Killer as well). Just stop caring if you win or lose, that's my advice. I'm not fully there myself yet, but I'm trying to be less invested in winning or losing.
There's also a YouTuber called Mr TatorHead that plays without perks and has done so for a very long time. They have a ton of very indepth guides on their channel about looping and that would be my first port of call if I really wanted to learn how to loop well (but to be honest, I'm way too casual and lazy for that). If you can learn to loop without perks, you can basically run whatever silly nonsense that you want to.
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@cogsturning said:
There's been a lot of initial complaints about fog vials. I'm not talking about the accessibility issues, which are a seperate matter. I'm talking about people who think they're annoying or disengaging.
So far, I've found them to be mostly useless. As killer, I still maintain chase. It's easy to see someone who panic-pops it in your face. The only chase I've lost so far was when a team rushed in to cover a teammate, and that's a valid use of the item and doesnt make me mad. But, so far, that's the exception and not the rule.
As survivor, I've been experimenting with them. I've tried to cut off my own chases and other people's. I've tried to set it off as the killer picks someone up to obscure hooks. I've tried to conceal auras while healing or working on gens. But nothing has really worked. I've yet to really find a good use for them as a soloq item.
But my God do I love them. Hear me out.
I switched from playing only killer to playing both because I thought survivor was more light-hearted and less intense, but ever since the introduction of the last-kill mori, I've had a miserable time. Slugging and tunneling have become constant. Sweaty playing is required. Playfulness and mercy from killers disappeared. I stopped being silly, took of my meme perks, and became a gen jockey, using a build that tore through gens, often doing two or three just by myself in every match.
But now there are fog vials. Stupid, silly fog vials. I love that there's a much needed new element. I love the chaos. I love the uncorking sound. And I love putting Scene Partner back on and being a clown again.
I was blessed with a lobby yesterday with two other fog vial users with silly names and knew I'd found my people. One died, but, thanks to the cleverly comical antics of the other when I was about to go on death hook, the match's energy did a total 180 and we had a fun time with the killer. I can not tell you how refreshing it was after losing like seven matches in a row. Those playful matches are such a breath of fresh air after grueling ones, and they have become so scarce. But even if fog vials have no other great use, they can bring back some of the silliness, and that's enough for me.
Totally agree with your sentiments. I hope the Devs pay attention to positive feedback for the vials, because they've been a breath of fresh air for a lot of Survivor players (myself included).
I've long believed that if you want players to queue up for the role that's most likely to lose (and is often expected to lose repeatedly), then you've got to make losing a fun experience. The fog vials go at least some way to achieving that goal and for that reason I'm glad they're in the game.
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I've been having some fun with this Legion stealth build. The perks are Dark Devotion + Trail of Torment + Tinkerer + Surge. Use the Scratched Ruler for mobility and the Iri Button for breaking pallets.
This build turns them into a speedy Ghost Face for much of the game and can be especially good if you get an indoor map like Midwich. The idea being to get quick injuries with an initial Frenzy or two, then to sneak around with undetectable status using line of sight blockers to pick off targets. If all goes to plan you'll get plenty of Surge value, since you'll be able to get really close to any Survivors working on gens (because nobody heals against a Legion).
Pair the build with a cosmetic that resembles a Survivor in the lobby if you can (or use one of their more casual Survivor-esque outfits).
Stealth perks on Legion is the closest you can get to playing as the Legion suggested in their original teaser trailer imo.