sinkra
sinkra
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The problem is BHVR has made tunneling the most efficient way to win for killers. If someone dies at 4 or 5 gens it's pretty much game over.
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@Tyler3 said:
When you get a survivor (or killer) to P1, you unlock their perks for everyone, but only the uncommon tier 1 versions. At P2, you unlock the rare tier 2 versions and finally at P3 you unlock the very rare tier 3 versions for everyone. Getting to P4, 5 and 6 will also unlock cosmetics for your character.
But I got Claudette Morel to just p1 and I'm using her tier 3 perks on Bill.
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If killers can see p-level of survivors then survivors should be able to see the killer in lobby as well.
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They're balancing the game for top-tier SWFs.
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Dude just crouch as soon as a drone goes off and you completely avoid the beams.
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@MalekithHatesSnow said:
I'd love for BHVR to just say who's in an SWF or who's not so if its 4 solos I can take it easy but you don't know if its a 4 man SWF who'll bring 4 BNPS and teabag you at the exit gate
The fact that killers often feel like they should "go easy" is proof something is wrong with the game and the MMR system isn't working properly.
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Killers are now calling for Windows of Opportunity to be nerfed too.
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@xltechno said:
For now, 2k is a draw for both killers and survivors. If we don't use that as a standard, the discussion won't move forward.
2k would be a draw if the game was balanced for a 50% kill rate. With a 60% kill rate a draw is statistically a loss for the killer. That means if the MMR system is set to account for a 60% kill rate, a 2k game lowers the hidden MMR of the killer even if it's not technically called a loss.
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From a company perspective it makes no sense why they would want to ruin the game for 80% of the players to make it more fun for 20%.
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@GolbezGarlandGabrant said:
Then people would gatekeep what is casual and what is competitive as if competitive people can't play casual. People would just expect easy games in casual.
It would be the opposite. The point of having a ranked and casual mode is that the ranked mode has very strict matchmaking while casual mode mixes everyone up (like we have now). If a ranked mode existed all the casuals would play to avoid the mismatched MMR it while on try-hards would be left in casual mode to fight each other.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3658678#Comment_3658678
I remember someone tried to convince me that 2K is a lost for killer, but match that survivor have 1 escape should count as "1 win" in that match.
Many killers consider anything less than a 4k a loss.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3658612#Comment_3658612
When both sides are weak or average, the game favors killer. When both sides are strong, killer is at a big disadvantage. If you tried nerfing killer more to help the average players, they would be unplayable against good survivors.
You think some slight buff to survivor would make the game unplayable for killers? The game is practically unplayable right now for survivors. It's only possible to escape if the killer is really bad, afk, messing around, hatch, or if they let you go on purpose.
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I'm still asking how can 50/50 be considered unbalanced?
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@Moz said:
I'm neither a survivor or killer main and I'd argue that 60% kill rate ( I'm to assume per survivor?) is actually lower than I'd like. It's a horror game... why would you want to play this game as a survivor if the escape rate was higher than it already is now? Doing gens requires no skill whatsoever. You don't even have to hold the button anymore, just press spacebar at the quicktime events. Maybe a mod or developer can answer this question but isn't a 40% escape rate a higher escape chance than we've seen in years past?
I believe the 60% kill rate has turned the game into a hardcore sweatfest for survivor players with no room for error. It's now a hardcore game (for survivors). The game is no longer accessible for casual players unless they play killer.
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Are you a killer main?
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@imjay said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/405749/have-bhvr-devs-ruined-dbd-for-survivors
"Do you miss the old DHDS Combo"
I think this part is a case of nostalgia fever. Actually think hard back to those times with old old DH where survivors would use it for distance. Playing killer was brutal. The game is in a better state now but I do agree that they're middle fingering survivors and the game is currently more killer sided. Don't blame the devs. It's hard to find such an equal balance in a game with such a huge variety of killers, killer powers, map layouts and perks. It's not an easy job to please everyone.
If DHDS was op then it would show in the stats. Yet the kill rate back then was around 50%.
"Playing killer was brutal."
It seems like if it's not easy to get a 3 or 4k every game then the game is survivor sided. Getting a 4k SHOULD be hard, not a walk in the park like it isnow.
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@bazarama said:
Playing for hooks is much more fun and if everyone escapes who cares?
Nobody.
No pat on the back, no medal and the press aren't desperate to interview you.
People forget it's a video game. A collection of pixels on a screen.
Don't know what the answer is to stop dc and toxic killers/try hards.
Slugging is sometimes required if a survivor runs into a corner where they no there is no hook nearby.
Tunnelling is used as a strategy to help gain an advantage and is sometimes the only way you can stop being stomped.
But neither should be the first option especially at 5 or 4 gens.
Easy fix for tunneling. Survivors get 40 seconds of endurance after being unhooked (up from 20).
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@jotaro said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3657971#Comment_3657971
Killer has always felt a bit boring for me personally which is why i preferred playing survivor. I used to enjoy being chased and helping teammates, but it just isn’t the same anymore. After the huntress changes and everything else i am done playing survivor, at least solo.
I’ve been playing killer recently (mostly legion, slinger, piggy and nurse) and even though im not very experienced at it, i’m getting easy 3-4ks most games against p100 survivors.. i thought playing nurse would be very difficult but turns out it’s not that bad. It’s relatively easy as i dont have to care about loops. At least it feels rewarding to make successful blink attacks and successful hits as slinger, but most of the other killers are very boring and i don’t feel good for getting downs and kills. It feels almost granted. Killer shouldn’t get 4k that often and that easily.
Where did you see killer players enjoying lights out as a survivor? It seems a bit weird since everyone was saying they just got tunneled every match for not having anti tunnel perks. I tried a few games myself hoping it would be fun and more horror-like and then just gave up on it
I would actually enjoy playing killer more if it felt more challenging and I had to sweat to get a 3 or 4k. I shouldn't have to make up arbitrary rules for myself like I'm not going to tunnel, camp or even regress gens just to make it feel more fair for the survivors.
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I'm wondering if the MMR system in this game puts high skilled with low skilled survivors on purpose to help carry those low skilled players and give them a chance.
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BHVR thinks survivors have more fun when they're being killed than escaping because it fulfills the horror fantasy.
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Because you can already tell what the game's gonna be like early on. If people are going down in the first 2 min and no one is on gens then many players see it's hopeless and just want to get out asap to the next game.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3656972#Comment_3656972
The only time I’ve ever seen survivors make a comeback was when I played killer and allowed it. I killed off one player early and saw the other three struggling. I felt guilty, so I basically meme’d so they stood a chance. I allowed them finish three gens so the game at least felt more balanced for them. But in the end I still won with a 4K. 🤷🏽♀️ By themselves survivors don’t recover from a rough start the way killers do.
This is why the 60% kill rate is actually understated. Many escapes are only because the killer allowed it or was just messing around. I think the real kill rate when killers are trying to win is around 70%.
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I can say I play both, and when I play survivor my hands are sweating but when I play killer I often feel like I should go a bit easy to give them a chance. This is the first pvp game I've ever played where I feel like I should "go easy" at all, killer is probably has a bit too much advantage right now.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3656960#Comment_3656960
First of all, that's not actually true, because the duration of the undetectable even with that addon is still less than the cooldown.
Secondly, you still haven't answered my question. Do you honestly and truly believe that SM is more powerful than Nurse and that is why her kill rate is 70%?
At high MMR nurse is probably stronger because it has a high skill cap but that's not what the average survivor experiences.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3654973#Comment_3654973
You can't possibly think SM needs nerfs to fix her 70% "kill rate" right? You can't possibly think she is the best killer in the game, and nurse is one of the worst. Right?
Are you aware that with an addon SM can have permanent undetectable?
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The simplest solution ever, just hide prestige from the killer in lobby. How is this still not fixed after so many years?
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I'm waiting for a goth emo boy.
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@cluxdx said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653185#Comment_3653185
Statistically speaking a 60% kill rate actually means the game is balanced pretty well overall. Because of the nature of killer winning the 1v1, almost any killer can guarantee at least one kill if they play their cards right, either through hook trades, EGC, etc. On top of that, when the killer kills 3 people they tend to kill all 4, and hatch escapes aren't counted in the stats.
If you assume most games range from 1-4 kills, that creates an average of 2.5 kills per game, which rounds to 63%. Adding in the occasional 4 man escape, 60% sounds relatively fair IMO. I believe the devs have even stated this is around what their ideal goal is.
How do you know hatch escapes aren't counted as escapes in the stats?
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@KatsuhxP said:
It's latency like already said!
besides that:
it happens pretty often that you hit a survivor at a palette on your screen and it doesn't count. That problem is there both ways but not really fixable i think.
Then how come shooter games with more specific targeting can feel much more precise with no latency discrepancy? My latency is low and it happens whether I'm playing killer or survivor.
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@GeneralV said:
It has already been said, but scrapping the MMR system and fixing the matchmaking is the best thing that can be done for solo queue at this point.
Isn't the MMR system is designed to match skilled survivors with baby survivors to give them a chance?
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@CrowVortex said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653185#Comment_3653185
80 seconds was the standard time for a gen before they increased it to 90 seconds, it was problematic before so i don't see them changing it back.
Any kind of buff to survivors would lower the kill rate, so if you BHVR thinks the 60% kill rate is fine then no buff to survivor is possible.
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I think the target of 60% kill rate is a problem, because that doesn't take into account dc's, killers messing around or going easy. It's not uncommon for a good killer player to have a 75% kill rate.
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It's not just about solo survivors, even high MMR 4-man SWF has a 48% escape rate. The whole survivor role needs a slight buff. They can start small, like -10 seconds on gen. Or fixing vaults so the killer can't hit you when you're literally on the other side and running.
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@Starrseed said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653154#Comment_3653154
thank you.
killer as a whole dont need buffs but there are more then enough bad killer that need some love. if we dont allow buffs for them just cause it would be a killer buff then survs have no right to complain why they only see the same 5 killer
Every single killer has above 50% kill rate.
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@anarchy753 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3649989#Comment_3649989
You can't have an asymmetrical game and think that flat 50% = balance.
There is almost never a game with 0 kills, because having ONE person hooked endgame makes it exceptionally likely SOMEONE will die.
Also, it's far easier to secure the final kill than it is to kill any other survivor.
Those two factors are going to mean that even in a perfectly fair game, the numbers will always show higher than 50% kills, because the outcomes don't neatly distribute at 20/20/20/20/20% for the outcomes. It would be more like 10/30/20/10/30, which will naturally push the numbers higher.
Asymmetric simply means different size teams with different roles. It does not mean one side needs to win more than the other on average. That's something BHVR made up to fulfill some kind of horror fantasy in their words. If you polled most survivors though I think the majority would prefer returning to a fair 50% kill rate which all MMR games are based on.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650021#Comment_3650021
I think a lot of Killers do give up and write matches off at the slightest hint of them having to really struggle.
Seems pretty obvious that Solo Q is just getting rolled and Duo and Trio isn't much better; so it wouldn't be unreasonable for a Killer to assume (and we know they do) that anything that causes them difficulty is due to 4-man SWF
Many killers consider anything less than a 4k a loss.
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The data explains why many survivors are saying the game is unfun now. It's not just about percentages, when you inherently give one side an advantage by design with the 60% kill rate it makes the actual experience of gameplay for the other feel very stressful and hopeless lots of the time. I don't understand why BHVR wants killers to have such an advantage when survivors are 80% of the playerbase.
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Ok I played some rounds as SM and it's extremely oppressive when there are 3 gens left. Just placing drones everywhere between them and running back and forth until someone is spotted I don't see how it would be possible for survivors to escape unless the gens are on opposite sides of a large map. If a drone gets disabled you can renew it instantly so there doesn't seem to be much counterplay.
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6 drones with a big radius can create a massive area denial. That combined with most solo Q players having no idea how her mechanics work, like not even knowing they can crouch to avoid the beam.
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@Eelanos said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650863#Comment_3650863
You're saying this as if letting the last survivor go wasn't that common.
A killer taking pity on the last player, a killer being friendly, a killer being AFK farming... there's a lot of instances where survivors can get extra escapes where they shouldn't have, and with enough of these, it's pretty easy to skew the data. Maybe not a 15%, but a 5 to 10 extra percentage of escapes can easily be achieved.
I don't think the OP is that far off. 26% might be an unlucky streak, but I've been paying extra attention on my escapes last couple of weeks, and while I haven't been keeping track of them to give you 100% reliable numbers, it was clear most my escapes came from pity hatches, friendly killers and AFK, and by a lot.
This is also backed up with how it feels when I play killer. I've been playing more killer than survivor since 6.1.0 and my kill rate is roughly 85~ish%, mostly because I don't really do pity hatches most of the time. This has been fairly consistent, and it's one of the reasons I get annoyed every time the forums talk about balance.
Furthermore I suspect that killers having an advantage by design encourages killers to do the aforementioned things (afk/memeing/pity escapes). This skews the true kill rate by downplaying it, which results in further imbalance as BHVR tries to maintain the 60% kill rate. What I'm trying to say is that I believe if killers felt the same kind of pressure that survivors do to succeed with the same rate of failure which would result from a 50/50 balance, killers would on average would feel more motivated to try as hard as possible to win rather than allow survivors to escape, compared to when it's 60/40.
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@Mandy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650863#Comment_3650863
even tens of thousands matches doesn't really come close to the amount of matches per day...hundreds of thousands might be better but it's closer to a million or more
That's why individual data is subjective, one persons experience is not going to be the same as another persons.
We use data plus feedback, neither are used on their own when we make decisions.
The balance between escape rates and kill rates is carefully monitored - right now it's in a pretty good spot across the board, it doesn't mean that we're not making changes to certain things, the wonders of a Live game is that there will always be adjustment to things as you've been able to see on our Live roadmap, but I can definitely confirm we have no plans to move away from the 60/40 split, this is what we're aiming for.
My experience is subjective but I consider myself an average player, not good and not bad. When I switch from survivor to killer it's very notable how much easier the game feels. I can get 4ks with ease and it doesn't even feel fair. I actually would enjoy playing killer more if it had some challenge, but it feels unfair and like I'm bullying the survivors by having so much of an advantage that I don't find it enjoyable. I can understand why a lot of killers let survivors escape out of pity, and that must have some effect on the overall kill rates.
It's kind of disappointing because I think DBD is an amazing game, but the balance feels off.
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delete
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@Crowman said:
Your personal experience is not necessarily reflective of the whole game.
Not to mention that Escape Rate != Win Rate. For example, you can die in most of your games, but the outcome can still be a 3 man escape, because you altruistically sacrificed yourself in the end game. You can also have an 80% escape rate, because you just hide for hatch.
Of course there's no way of knowing the true overall false escape rate because I doubt BHVR even has a way of measuring it. I would encourage you to do your own experiement. Over the next 50 games as survival, count how many escapes you had and how many of those escapes were false escapes (killer memeing/afk/pity escapes). I don't think it's extremely rare like 1% like you seem to imply, I think it's significantly deflating official kill rates and that needs to be taken into consideration when balancing the game. It feels almost impossible to escape against a killer who knows what they're doing and is trying to win as hard as possible. It shouldn't be like that. I'm of the opinion that if both sides are trying, there should be a roughly equal chance of dying or escaping.
I truly believe the overall effective kill rate is at least 70% when false escapes and games with a dc are taken into consideration. Otherwise it would not be possible for killers to go on multi-hundred game win streaks like some streamers are doing.
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@Bafugaboo said:
Your want them to base their kill rate stats on just your games?
This is over many games. If you think the game is fine and balanced right now, I'm just wondering have you played survivor lately? Because the odds feel so stacked against you as survivor, especially with the bad matchmaking. I don't enjoy playing killer either for the simple reason that it feels too easy, to the point it feels like bullying.