savevatznick
savevatznick
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Getting chased near a hooked survivor and not dragging the killer away, ensuring no unhook happens.
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C*nsole players
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There's only so much lipstick you can put on a pig.
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There's borrowed time for an unhooker who wants to do unsafe unhooks and there's DS for people who get unsafely unhooked. Survivors shouldn't be invincible on unhook - part of survivor gameplay is coordinating the right time to do certain actions, not just performing them as a given. If you're unhooked unsafely and your teammate isn't running BT, then their unhook was bad and your team is punished for it,
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If someone is just following you around w/ OoO, ignore them. They're not on gens and are as functional as a dead teammate if they're following you around unless you're a trap based killer.
Then, once they're used to you ignoring them, then chase them when they're caught out in a bad position.
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I like playing Trapper and Hag so even getting to high purple ranks for me ends up being a nightmare. I end up organically depipping anyways because my killers are terrible at earning gatekeeper points. Can't protect those first 2-3 gens from popping while still having your power.
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At least Wretched Shop and Swamp have areas you just KNOW not to get into.
Haddonfield has those guaranteed houses you would be an idiot to chase into, PLUS random long no-mindgame loops that spawn in the white fences or in combination with pallets. It's a grab bag either super strong house loops and bad RNG near-infinites.
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Clown already is good at what he does : Putting pallets down quickly in chases. He's fine in chases, it's the fact that he doesn't do anything BESIDES chase well. You'd need to give him some sort of map mobility power in order to make him potent, which simply isn't in his kit.
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I mean, you 4k to ensure a pip and entertain a double pip. There's no point in ranking up as killer when you go up against better and better survivors as you level up, and the cracks in the games balance begin to show.
Do what you want. If you want to rank, get used to slugging.
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@BlueFang said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/682101#Comment_682101
All I play is M1 Killers
I can do great as any other killer but Ghostface is impossible for me
There are a couple mindgames you can do with Night Shroud mid-chase to get free hits on survivors because it hides your stain and TR, but you really need to be conscious with it. Hitting a survivor will reset their stalk meter, which can actually waste your time.
Think about it this way - if you chase a survivor to 75% stalk, and then are broken out, is it really worth chasing them? You've already essentially "injured" them, in that you've taken 75% of their health already. If you hit them, you'll basically undo your power - I often find it's better to chase someone else until my Night Shroud comes back up, then re-stalk the person who already has progress built up. You can even do the Myers-Esque 99% stalk, build up stalk on everyone, and simply pop night shroud whenever you get into a chase. Being conscious (and even hindered) by your power is a decision you need to make on GF, I've found.
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It just needs to be made more consistent - though I do think part of the inconsistency is simply players needing to learn its range.
I think it's fine as is. A 7.5 second stun is MASSIVE and completely unneeded.
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I think that devs are pretty aware of how badly large maps affect most killers' odds, but aren't going to do anything about it, as it would basically require them to scrap and remake the whole maps.
Yet another problem with no solution.
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Just get good at your M1 mechanics. I haven't played him too much because I got him, and realized that any survivor with eyes can ruin your power.
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Fractured Cowshed
Tons of pallet loops that are completely non-mindgameable that usually combo into an adjacent jungle gym or structure window, as well as the cow tree loop which also combos. The center of the map is corn, which means you're constantly playing the edges as killer.
Stupid easy map for good survivors tbh.
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Some people think that you're lagswitching when you hit them on a medium vault because "I went thru the window u hacker".
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Not to mention he's the definition of an M1 killer. He's loopable to high hell.
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Nurse pisses off survivors because she makes them practice and play for a different game than they're prepared for.
They can't run to loops to be safe and they need to be mindgaming all the time. There's very specific ways to read how a nurse blinks and how to juke her subsequent blinks that can really only be figured out by playing both as and against her.
Instead of a killer playing at a loop and needing to win two successful mindgames to end the chase efficiently, the survivor needs to prolong the chase by winning mindgames. They are the ones who need to be tricky, which I don't think survivors are used to. Playing against nurse is a game in and of itself.
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There is no rational reason for devs to rework existing content to be more satisfying.
There is a definite monetary reason for them to release new content that bandaid fixes problems with old content while pleasing the popcorn munchers.
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He's the best an M1 killer can be. Give an m1 killer reasonable map pressure and reasonable antiloop - You can't really stick much more on an M1er.
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Disconnects go to Brutality, not sacrifice, so you can deny a killer points by dcing.
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The spirit essentially turns the map into one big loop, instead of initiating a mindgame at a designated "loop" spot. She's basically mindgames embodied.
The loop begins when she stands still. She'd either
A. Faking her power entirely or not, which you need to read.
then B. She's phasing. You both cannot see each other,but can both hear each other and she can see scratch marks.
Remind you of anything? Spirit's power literally just initates an " Unsafe loop / Jungle Gym" Mindgame -Except the survivor can't see the Red Stain and the killer can't see the survivor. Spirit is a killer that separates the wheat from the chaff in that she tests a survivors' understand of all the core mechanics of the game AND the meta of the game. She seems killer sided because a lot of killers need to rely on red-glow mindgames (not seeing the survivor) to get hits or pallet drops, as well as other clues (birds flying, grass moving, etc) whereas survivors generally rely on red glow and TR alone. Survivors generally don't see things from the Spirit's perspective, and don't pay attention to how they move when she's phasing besides "Oh god she's phasing."
Only thing I think is a bit cheap is how she can collide with survivors during phase, and prayer beads. Besides that, Spirit simply turns the table. Instead of a killer trying to mindgame for a hit with initial action and a survivor reacting, Spirit turns that on its head. She turns it into "I'm going to hit you, you must mindgame to avoid it". Survivors aren't used to that sort of counterplay, so they cry OP.
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Pennywise is just Freddy Krueger. Also, the new movies were just "jumpscare every 10 minutes" fests designed to scare stupid people. IT ? More like Stranger Things part 5.
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Self care is fine if you use it prudently. A lot of people who run it seem to be scared of being in a chase or scared of the killer - hence the stereotype of Claudette running across the map, which wastes time, and then self caring, wasting even more time.
Knowing when to heal is often just as important as the ability to self heal. A lot of players trip over that.
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Camping is a good way to depip.
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@Drazen said:
This happens when u only play 50% of the game ie surv mains only
Pretty much this. If they haven't been playing both sides enough to know why their opponent is doing certain things, then they're going to be toxic. They are literally clueless.
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It's funny because the game contradicts itself. Sound is a big part of the game, especially for the killer. There are even perks on both sides that directly affect the sounds survivors make...
...and then a chase starts and suddenly you can't hear anything. Which is it? Are we supposed to be able to use our ears or not?
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on Haddonfield just downshift your expectations. Six hooks is the equivalent to a two-hook. Two sacrifices is a 4k. You aren't doing haddonfield vs good survivors and coming out with a pip.
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@LonlyGamerX said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/673118#Comment_673118
yeah that fine, you do not have to use it, you can as well use other killers but stop complaining or saying they need to be changed if you arent willing to use your equipment at hand like for example dont complain about gen rushing if you dont have ruin on. Perks, killers, power add ons and offerines were design to help prevent things like god loops, add new fun stuff and so both survivor and killer had perk can could counter each other. If you chose not to use that then its fine but if you dont use it dont complain about stuff being op.
Didn't think this thread would still be kicking.
I think you're missing the point here. I was saying that god loops / safe zones on the map are quite easily fixable, but for some reason they are not being fixed. It doesn't make that much sense that there are minor tweaks that would greatly improve the balance of certain maps, yet BHVR hasn't made these fixes yet. It wouldn't be much work for their team and it'd get them brownie points with the playerbase.
Also, I don't know who you watch, but the "pro" players I've seen complain or laugh about the strength of the loops I mentioned all the time. Everyone here I think knows that it's stupid to chase a survivor into such a safe zone, and "pro" killers deal with these maps by simply giving up that portion of the map.
The game shouldn't be like that. The most sensible option for a Killer should not be "Just drop any chase that goes near a certain area of the map, because you can never win there". Having to start a game one to three gens "forfeited" simply because they're in an indefensible part of the map is a sign that the map is imbalanced.
As for Bamboozle, a lot of the strength of these structures is centered around the fact that Bamboozle DOESN'T work to mitigate them. I've pretty much stopped using Bamboozle entirely, because most windows are on short enough loops that you can mind-game and don't need it, and on the God loops, there's almost always an adjacent pallet or two, another window that makes Bamboozle useless, or a jungle gym that lets you wait out Bamboozle's timer. It's a poor band-aid fix.
@Peanits I know yall are busy with Stranger Things hype and churning out more new content, but is there any possibility that the structures I mentioned will get looked at for minor changes any time soon? I know that you all ideally have Badham-tier reworks for all the maps planned, but knowing how fast yall work and how long it takes to implement those reworks, can you not simply do a quick pass and fix the maps "for now"?
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This is a semantics argument, but generally the term M1 killers means the character is only as dangerous as they can reach with their M1. Generally, that means that they're vulnerable to looping because the survivor knows that as long as they're not within M1 distance of the killer, they're safe. Even characters like Purgeless Plague or Ghostface are M1 Killers. If you're not within swing range of them, they literally cannot hurt you. They cannot ignore the loop game.
With Nurse or Spirit, while they technically use their M1 to actually hit you, you're not actually safe from them simply by being out of reach. Billy is similar because he can close distances quite quickly, but far more conditionally than the other two can. Trapper and Hag also tend to elude the looping meta to some extent, but they pay for that heavily by having crippling setup time and being extra vulnerable to sabotage.
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Shroud of Separation isn't beneficial to the killer at all. Having four survivors spread out means that you can't pressure more than one of them on gens at a time, and will guarantee that three gens pop on your first chase vs. good survivors.
Killer has a ton of offerings that are just straight trash, like non-The Game map / Mac Millan offerings and useless stuff in the bloodweb.
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Because they know that if you're still spending money on console games, you're going to spend 60$.
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yeah, and when I was new, I bought a DLC to play a like a movie serial killer, not get run around in circles like a Tom and Jerry cartoon.
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I'd remove them and keys. They simply delete the end-phases of the game for survivors and killer. If a killer needs an morii (one or more survivors to have one less hookstate) to even have a credible change of winning the game, then that killer / the game have a balance issue.
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Good Survivors have learned his Dream Pallets power well enough that it's borderline useless now. His Block addons are worthless anyways - so half of New Freddy's addons are suboptimal.
His Dream Snares shorten loops, but don't mitigate them, much like the Clown's. Honestly, I think the reason he's doing so well is that Freddy is basically a Clown with some degree of map control. He hinders survivors in loops and makes them waste pallets like mad, but unlike the Clown, he can literally teleport across the map instantly. I'd say he's the ultimate M1 Chaser killer. They can't make one better than he is, and he shows the full extend of an M1 killer's power. That is to say, he's simply B+ / A tier. He'll never be more, and he'll almost always lose to a group of people who know what they're doing.
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It's getting "old" because it's a legitimate complaint. Dealing with people who communicate to do everything optimally sucks. Playing a trapping killer is impossible because they can scope out all of your traps - playing a stealth killer is terrible because they can relay your general area - all so other people can loop safely or do gens. The game feels like it's supposed to be balanced around survivors who aren't in communication / aren't optimal, and when they are optimal, the killer feels like garbage, because that's what they are. A team of plain "good" survivors - not stellar survivors, just "good" - can make a monkey out of most killers because each single survivor can waste via loops as much time per-hit such that a killer can never get more than four or so hooks per game. Everything else is up to lack of survivors' information, or them making bad judgement calls. A team of optimal survivors destroys any optimal killer, even Nurse, 90% of the time - IF A TEAM OF SURVIVORS MAKES NO MISTAKES, A KILLER HAS NOTHING TO PUNISH. That means the game is balanced towards the survivors' favor.
The joke about the "Holy Triad" is real for a reason - those killers are the only ones who stand a chance around coordinated SWF because they can be anywhere on the map at any time, mitigating the communication advantage of "I'm being chased, do gens!" over SWF. Killers without a traversal ability get shafted precisely because with good communication, killers who can't move quickly literally cannot rotate to gens in time to halt progress.
You may tell me, Of course four good players should outweigh one good player, every time! What is the point of high ranks, then? So a single good killer gets turned into a toy for good survivors to play with? That's how it feels, most of the time. It feels like you're a toy for good survivors. You're a person who voluntarily got suckered into being Monkey in the Middle for 10 or so minutes, you're not even hoping for a 2k, just enough hooks that they don't laugh at you in postgame. It sucks queueing into a game knowing you're going to lose. It sucks winning a game in one fell swoop and losing a pip anyways because you cut the game short too quickly by downing survivors and defending hooks too well. It's a catch 22.
That's why killers ######### about SWF. Not the low rank ones who need to get good, the higher rank ones who genuinely want to play well. It sucks to play against survivors who know every move you can make before you make it. It sucks, and the game enables that.
A single survivor can ruin a killers' game if he commits to them. A team of good survivors ruins every killers' game because if he commits to any of them, he loses two or more gens. He relies only on the mistakes the survivors' mistakes. A killer has no initiative past rank 10.
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This shouldn't even exist in a competitive game.
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Ghostface is an m1 killer with no Antiloop. He can't control the map or traverse it quickly, and he has the Wraith issue in that his power literally tells survivors "I'm going to hit you, get ready!"
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It's not so simplistic as a single nerf to gen repair speed. It's not the one thing.
It's partly a mapping issue. On the larger maps, it takes so long to rotate between gens that a killer that isn't one of the Holy Triad has no gen pressure, only hook pressure.
It's partly a balancing issue, where the game isn't balanced around the highest level of play - if survivors stop messing around and do gens, then you will lose two or three gens in your first chase, even if it's a concise one. Double those losses if your killer requires trap setup time.
It's also just part of how the game works. A killer starts with zero resources to pressure survivors. The opening three minutes generally dictate how a match will go, as you can see by the video. The first hook is where a killer can force survivors to do things besides gens, and denying that first hook is how you ruin their day.
Making gens take 20 seconds longer would help, but it wouldn't be a change that addresses the game's problems.
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Detective's hunch is better.
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The best way to buff plague would be to stop releasing maps that she can't possibly pressure.
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@Fibijean said:
@savevatznick I see your point, but that's assuming that everyone plays or even wants to play at top ranks. At middle or lower ranks, where stealth builds are viable, perhaps cleansing could be a viable strategy for those players? I deliberately don't play a lot at top ranks, so I don't know much about how things work there, but I suspect that, as DudeDelicious mentioned above, Corrupt Purge is not as powerful as it's made out to be.
Corrupt Purge is immensely powerful, and while good Survivors can mitigate it, it's too powerful to be taken for granted. The Plague is unbalanceable in her current state because the guaranteed injure of Corrupt Purge is too powerful to give her for free - so it's locked behind Survivors' actions.
The issue is that her Vile Purge stage is just an M1 killer who can expose you over time. Being one-shot isn't a big deal to survivors who can loop, because if they're good at looping, they can do whatever they want in the time they needed and waste your time as killer. The Vile PLague poses no threat because she just perma-injures survivors, narrowing the window of making mistakes, but still enabling Dead Hard and allowing survivors to make a rodeo clown out of her. She can be looped, her time can be wasted - at higher ranks, looping her is the same Broken as it is healthy. She's neutered.
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SWF is a problem the developers seriously don't have a solution to. It's a gaping hole in their balance design because they have made this game to be approached by four solo survivors.
Many perks are made obsolete simply by survivors being coordinated, - even many killer powers are worthless against SWF - but here's the issue : not all SWFs are coordinated. This is where your problem lies. The Developers of this game will not balance around the highest levels of play, because they believe that since "not every time, will you face an optimal team", justifies you being destroyed by an optimal team every time they act optimally.
There is no way to balance around SWF without universally buffing survivors with omnipresent information so solos can act with equal efficiency to SWFs, or by disabling SWFs completely. Nothing will stop people from playing with their friends, and it'd be stupid to do so, business wise.
So we're at an impasse. SWF is crazy OP when done right, but equalizing the field would ruin Killer gameplay. Buffing killers would make non-SWF play much harder. What to do?
Let's forget about it - hey, look, we released a new stranger things chapter! you all love pop culture! Eat the corporate slop, you drones! Stop asking us to balance the core problems of our game! Look, it's stranger things, shut up already!
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please learn to speak english before posting. I can't read your fucken paragraphs because they have no formatting period.
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@AntiJelly said:
Genuine question. How is it that it's fair for Survivors to have Toolboxes? Prove Thyself is fine because all it does is make up for an inefficiency so it's not actually speeding up the objective more than normal, and Resilience is a risk/reward, but Toolboxes just let Survivors do objectives faster without any skill involved.
You just equip a Toolbox, and rush. That isn't healthy for the game. What if Killers had a perk that made any hook sacrifice Survivors 25% faster? People would riot. I think it's high time that Toolboxes get removed.
Feel free to criticize me or give a reason as to why Toolboxes might be fair or healthy. Or agree with me. Either way, discuss.
I can sort of agree with you. The addon system, I have bitched about it for ages, is inherently unbalance.
in any game, you can be up against 1-4 survivors who may or may not repair generators faster than normal. You're up against abnormal balance conditions that can make or break the game in a meta where literal seconds count! The game isn't balanced around Toolboxes being the optimal mode of play, the game is balanced around empty-handed survivors.
Again, I hate to say it again and again, but "you won't face it every game" isn't an argument. If 4 toolbox survivors is a problem in one game, it's a problem all the time, because survivors are smart enough to play the meta. Toolboxes shorten the win condition of the killer to the point where most killers cannot exert enough pressure on gens to "win" by 2-king
Good survivors already make sure the killer has no Gen pressure, only Hook pressure. Toolboxes only exacerbate this issue.
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@Fibijean said:
@DudeDelicious But isn't it a good idea to always assume a killer is competent until proven otherwise? So if you should only cleanse against a good Plague, you should cleanse by default unless you realise you're up against one that's not good?
@savevatznick As I mentioned, I feel like it depends entirely on your build/playstyle/skills whether that strategy is a good idea or not. For people that are good at looping, who run exhaustion perks or aggressive builds, not cleansing at all is a great strategy. But for people whose playing style and builds rely heavily on stealth and not being found in the first place, being infected is a death sentence. It just sucks that whichever you choose, you tend to screw over anyone trying to do the opposite.
Your playstyle doesn't matter when Stealth barely works in the higher ranks. A good killer knows how to optimally scan things to the point that stealth isn't even worth it. That, combined with being fully infected (you are LOUD AND MAKE PUKING NOISES ALL THE TIME) negating stealth, means stealth vs plague isn't an option. She forces survivors to stop hiding and loop while injured, which is powerful until you hit the point where survivors know how to loop and can waste enough of Plague's time that it doesn't matter if they were injured or not.
Her power is simply a skill check until survivors cleanse. Nothing more. She's still loopable and loops consume too much of her time to be viable.
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@Chickenchaser said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/652997#Comment_652997
I've always saw ruin as a joke perk both as a survivor, and a killer. For the most part survivors power thru it like it's not even there. Other than that slight disagreement I understand what you're saying. Probably not the best thing to do.
I'd like to see it tested in a PTB just to see what it would look like.
Yeah, I know Ruin is a bit of a noob filter in that is separates the wheat from the chaff - the good survivors don't even effing see skill checks, they just do them perfect every time - that's why Overcharge is garbage in high ranks.
I'm just saying that four perks is a good spot right now, because it lets both sides stack their deck to a certain strength withut allowing them the luxury of running every single "meta" perk at once. Four is enough - to have five for every player would simply ensure people would run more meta options with less of a drawback. Ya feel?
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/652989#Comment_652989
A good Plague isn’t expecting to successfully down a broken survivor at a loop. She just wants to get rid of the pallets ASAP, and return to the gens.
In my experience, if I don’t engage in long loops, or endless pallet looping (by forcing a drop), and stay close to gens, and get my downs around them, even red rank survivors cleanse against me.
I run Brutal Strength on her - I know what you mean - but I feel like that playstyle is really dependent on the map to make or break it. I understand you want to get survivors to drop pallets ASAP with mindgames to ensure that gens sit in "dead zones" they can't trespass upon, but the big issues becomes a time, which not even a plague has. I feel like a Broken Survivor is just as potent as an full health one in terms of looping, and your time wasted is your time wasted no matter what vs a good survivor team that is coordinated. Thus, I think all survivors should never cleanse vs plague until the exit gates, where her purge simple speeds them to escapes, because in the end, she's as loopable as Ghostface.
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Imagine four survivors running Dead Hard, DS, Borrowed Time, Adrenaline, and a flex perk.
Imagine a killer being able to run Ruin as a given, and then having their real build in 4 perks. You know we'd all run Ruin as that fifth slot.
Imagine how terrible the game would be.
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don't cleanse. If no one cleanses, you are simply playing injured all game. That may SOUND bad, but once you realize Plague is super tall and has a hard time mindgaming any loops. you will quickly find out that she's not so special at all.
The Plague is a reminder than no matter how outrageous you make a power (unlimited Huntress hatchets that are undodgeable), they cannot be overpowered if you make the survivors have agency over that power. The Plague needs to ask survivors permission to use her lethal power - if no one cleanses, she is simply a loopable killer than can barely mindgame tiles.
Long story short, don't give her her power and you'll win every time. Git gud at looping, and you'll eat plague for breakfast. She's godlike under rank 10 but once you get past it where survivors know how to loop, she's a paperweight. She's useless.
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Spirit and nurse have manageable counters. In looping, the survivor has initiative, but with spirit or Nurse, the killer has initiative, and the survivor needs to be able to naviagate within the rules of the killer. That's why they're so threatening.
Instead of a survivor initiating a "loop" game with the killer, the killer initiates a "blink" or "phase" game with the survivor, where the survivor needs to read and react to killer actions, instead of the other way around. There is definite, clear counterplay to both nurse and spirit, it's just that it is so radically different from the traditional loop gameplay that survivors have a hard time learning it.
I highly recommend putting in hours in on spirit and Nurse at higher ranks before complaining. Knowing what a nurse or spirit is looking for from the killers' perspective will genuinely help you play AGAINST them as survivor. You can juke nurse and spirit all day once you learn what the Nurse or Spirit player is looking for.
That's why they're only "viable". I do think Omegablink / multiblink breaks Nurse, and Prayer Beads is a bit unfair, but at base, these killers are the only ones who can dictate the pace of the game, as opposed to other killers being at survivors' mercy. Learn to play against them.