runningguy
runningguy
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@brewingtea said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030504#Comment_4030504
If it was counterable, why would so many killers "need" tunneling at "high MMR"? Remember that was the argument? "We can't win without it?"
If it's SOOOO hard to counter that not even the best survivors can do it, then I think your argument falls apart, right?
killers need to tunnel to win in a lot of cases but when survivors do counter it there really isnt much the killer can do.
Its not that hard to counter tunneling, i play solo survivor, so much i would say im survivor main these days. im pretty average, im not a pro player but im countering tunneling just fine by using stealth and losing line of sight and loops. its not a case of 1 thing counters it, its playstyle as a whole.
The reason why so many people ranging from new players to even players with thousands of hours just cant counter it is because they have adopted the one playstyle and thats all they know. The play style of getting in the killers face, the only way of getting fun is chase and loops to showcase "skill". its pretty evident even just by being on these forums that very few players actually play stealth and many believing stealth cant be done.
This is why people struggle with countering tunneling, and thats why tunneling is so effective. if theres one thing the killer can rely on it survivors making the simplest mistakes such as unhooking too soon, not taking the chase away from the gens, running around like a headless chicken with no regard of scratch marks.
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4033687#Comment_4033687
When has slowing down gens ever encouraged Killers to spread hooks? Never.
slowing down gens would encourage me to not tunnel so thats 1 person lol. There have been many on the forums saying the same thing too. obviously people will still tunnel regardless thats why nerfs to tunneling like the first ptb would pretty much stop tunneling but they cant do that without allowing killers time to spread hooks or by giving killers the means to down faster. thats why the ptb never goes live.
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@Terror_Misu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4033657#Comment_4033657
Please read @CompetitifDBD post again. You havent touched his point, merely skirting it to float your own view. I'll assist.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4033646#Comment_4033646
There. He's pointing out the loops aren't safe, even if the survivor wins. You have said nothing on this, which was the entire point. Please touch on these points. Thank you.
they are not supposed to be "safe". the main issue with the game has always been that survivors have "safe" areas where they know they are untouchable and will always run there. like shack for instance, so many people head for the shack because its often better to abandon chase and go for someone else than chase around the shack. survivors shouldnt have areas like that all over the map. you also shouldnt be able to run from pallet to pallet to pallet…its boring gameplay and part of the reason why killers tunnel.
while on tunneling, i have always said if people want tunneling to be nerfed that much then gens need to be slowed to allow killers time to spread hooks. the answer has been a unanimous NO. fair enough, another way to help killers not need to tunnel is to allow faster downs so they can keep up with the speed gens fly. these smaller loops do this. maybe its the start of the anti tunnel coming in?
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@CompetitifDBD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4033639#Comment_4033639
Its not at all fair. 50/50s are killer sided for the most part, one misplay and you're getting tagged because the loops are too small. Win the 50, and you don't have enough distance to make it anywhere anyway. They should exist as edge map pallets only, not fillers that should be chainable into structures.
lol 50/50s are killer sided? i have never heard of a 50 50 chance being favoured towards 1 side, if it did it wouldnt be 50 50. if you flip a coin its 50 50 chance of heads or tails….doesnt favour one or the other.
the small loops seem reasonable for most of the killer roster, there are only a few (top tier killers) that the small loops are a death trap but thats an issue with the killers not the loops.
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@CompetitifDBD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4033608#Comment_4033608
Clearly it's alot of other people's opinions too
maybe but my point that people wanted fairness and 50 50 luck based cant be any more fair than that are for the many many many people that have been very vocal about the game being too competitive and hate try hards.
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@Ghost77 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4033608#Comment_4033608
And don't you think that if they had implemented the anti-slug and tunnel changes with minor adjustments it would have been a good step for player health?
it would be great for soloq health. killer health? no. which is the issue, it should be about game health as a whole
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@CompetitifDBD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4033539#Comment_4033539
Of Course I wouldn't mind. Developers making games like this should aim to have as little luck based mechanics as possible. They can start with small things, like limiting skill checks per generator and their frequency. (keep luck themed perks like Bardic and Dramaturgy the same) Games like DBD should not be primarily luck based, that's not fun.
thats your opinion but from what i have seen in these forums there are many that dont share that opinion. there are killers and survivors that would prefer a more casual, party game experience where skill, competitiveness and the must win mindset isnt at the core of the game.
how many causal survivors or killers just hop on the game now and then to get super competitive meta opponents? how many killers let the survivors escape or meme around?
personally i like the luck element to the game, if there was no rng every match would feel the same, its bad enough i get the same killers over and over i would hate to have same map over and over with the same pallet layout every time. im not really sure how you would achieve the whole thing of skill = win in this type of game when theres soloq, an amazingly skilled player can still lose because his 3 team mates refuse to touch gens but you cant force people to do gens if they dont want to.
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@CompetitifDBD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4033324#Comment_4033324
It has nothing to do with competitiveness, luck based mechanics are not fun to use. People want to actually learn how to play better, not rely on luck
so you wouldnt mind having no rng? pallets preset every match the same, totems same location every match, map selection to hand pick the map? these are all luck based elements of the game, like it or not luck is a big part of the game. even down to the random team mates….its luck on if im teamed with good people or people that just want to meme
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4033255#Comment_4033255
In order for that to be true, the killer's first chase would have to last noticeably over 90 seconds, to account for the travel time needed to have the other three split up on separate gens.
If the killer's first chase isn't that long, they get a hook, and gen repair slows down noticeably afterwards.
smart survivors make use of the hook timer, assuming 1 is hooked and 1 in chase thats still 2 survivors working gens….there are only 5 that need to be done. when 2 gens are done, unhook and back to a gen. im sure some people have no idea just how long it can take a slow killer like myers or pig to get around the map.
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@CompetitifDBD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4033248#Comment_4033248
it is absolutely not what people want. We want skill expression, knowledgeable plays, not even more mechanics that are completely out of the player's control to succeed in using properly.
not everyone wants that, that sound competitive where skill is where its at. a lot of people actually want a casual game. skill isnt a big thing in casual games, luck is, where people that have no skill can still win.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4033178#Comment_4033178
Survivors can do gens in five minutes only in scenarios where they are also leveraging seriously unbalanced tools.
That's also a balance issue. Both need addressing.
survivors can do gens in 5min without tools. 4 survivors, the killer can only chase 1 at a time unless the survivors take the chase to a gen being worked on. 3 that are not in chase working on gens, all 3 can pop in under 2min, thats basekit speed.
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@CompetitifDBD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031795#Comment_4031795
You can't learn how to play a 50/50 at every filler. That's completely luck based
- there is a lot in dbd thats luck based, rng, map, hatch spawns
- 50/50 sounds pretty fair to me which is what most people want
- you can learn stealth to avoid getting into a position where you need to even use a pallet, maybe people with start to think more instead of running around like a headless chicken
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4033160#Comment_4033160
One of those things is a shortcut, specifically because of how the game's designed.
If you target a survivor who has just been unhooked - which is the definition of tunnelling I use - then you get to benefit from a much easier chase for zero requirements or tradeoff.
The survivor starts the chase injured, already a benefit, and they also do not get to make any distance on you while you approach because they're stuck in the animation of being unhooked. It's a chase that starts tilted heavily towards the killer, requiring much more from the survivor to counter than it takes for the killer to perform.
This, already, is an imbalance. This alone would be enough to warrant addressing tunnelling. However, there's an extra step.Because those chases are likely to be much shorter due to the above, a killer can use this shortcut to force someone out of the game early, gaining the massive advantage of a dead survivor. If that happens early enough, they have won outright, the best players in the world would struggle to win a 1v3 at five gens against an even just competent killer.
If it happens later in the match though, it's still a huge advantage that the killer got for basically nothing. They just got easy chases into a massive advantage, that's it.The only thing holding this back in real matches is a combination of genuinely pretty strong perks that help counter this tactic if they are brought into that match, and the fact that there are definitely killers out there who fumble even the easy chase that comes with tunnelling.
its a race, gen speed v kills. fastest side wins. survivors can do gens in 5 min, killer is supposed to get 12 hooks in that timeframe. i can see why people take shortcuts when the opponent is faster.
if survivors have not done 1 gen by the time it takes to tunnel out 1 player then thats a misplay by the survivors.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4033149#Comment_4033149
More that there's an expectation to engage with chases.
My overall point, though, is that comparing tunnelling and looping doesn't work, because one is a basekit shortcut one side gets to take and the other is a central pillar of the game for both sides.
its all basekit, tunneling, spreading hooks, looping, stealth. all playstyles that people can opt to use.
killer cant kill fast enough before gens pop? answer is tunnel.
survivor cant loop at all? answer is stealth.
they are not shortcuts, they are methods of playing.
the expectations do play a big part in why people seem to get stressed and cant win though. maybe people shouldnt play to whats expected of them and play to whatever works for them.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4033137#Comment_4033137
How are those things equivalent?
Looping isn't even a solely survivor skill, both players engage with looping in every match because it's one of the major design pillars of DBD.
That's not to say it's the only skill expression, it isn't, but it is a necessary type of skill expression in order to be good, for both sides.If we're going to look for a survivor equivalent to tunnelling, then first we have to admit that there isn't one in a literal sense because tunnelling is basekit and there's nothing in the survivor basekit like it (a good thing, ftr), but even expanding out into loadouts the equivalent would be something like toolbox builds, nothing chase-related.
The skill expression killers get to circumvent by tunnelling is pretty much everything in the macro (tracking, pressure, map resource management, etc) and also a good chunk of the chase-focused skill expression by starting chases that are stacked in their favour.
Survivors don't really have anything like that, but brute-forcing their objective with toolboxes would be the closest they come.are you saying people cant win without looping?
i would also question how "skilful" it is looping a basic, slow m1 killer with little to no anti loop.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4033137#Comment_4033137
Aren't you the guy who claims to win nearly every match by hiding and not engaging in chase at all?
Sounds an awful lot like "not looping" to me...
Pick a stance and stick with it.
i can do it, im talking about other people that complain about tunneling but cant win without looping.
my point is we do what we need to do, some need to tunnel, some need to loop, some need to stealth. i dont care what people need to do if it works for them. but when someone says "learn to win without doing this" then i fire it back at them, "you try winning without looping" or "try winning without any perks" or "try winning without comms" (if they regularly use comms).
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@THE_Crazy_Hyena said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4032882#Comment_4032882
Stealth? In this day and age?
Last I checked, there is a lot of aura read in the game, rendering hiding/stealth almost useless, unless you are in a locker.
Popping a fog vial just paints a big target on your location, and who runs Boon: Shadow Step these days?yes stealth is still viable, my entire playstyle is based on stealth while still doing gens and i dont use stealth perks so its very much an option in this day and age. most killers use gen slow down perks so its rare they use actual aura reading. at best they seem to rely on killer instinct which only tells the killer your rough location.
tips on stealth
- walk dont run, scratch marks will give you away.
- when in chase, lose line of sight, walk to lose the killer and mix running with walking behind walls it varies depending on the situation.
- pre run or pre walk…when killer heading your way when your a gen, walk away and make sure killer doesnt have line of sight.
- when you scream or think your aura has been read by the killer, start thinking of an obscure place nearby because the killer is probably going to head in your direction.
stealth play is very situational so its not a 1 rule fits all, takes judgement, game sense, map knowledge, it takes many things but its very much a possibility
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@Meg_Survivor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030504#Comment_4030504
or learn to stop tunneling and actually learn how to be a better killer without needing to tunnel???
sure, when survivors learn to win without looping then you can tell killers to win without tunneling
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@00berdisc said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4032871#Comment_4032871
It's still not fun for the unfortunate soul who gets stuck with it, Something so disgusting shouldn't be allowed in a game
then maybe survivor isnt for them? or practice losing line of sight, stealth.
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my point exactly, assuming that was a tunneling killer, p100 and got 2k. hardly a winning strategy.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4032812#Comment_4032812
Hypothetically, sure, but it's not really sustainable for the whole team to do.
Stealth has been intentionally weakened to not keep the killer off you forever (though don't get me wrong it is still strong and worthwhile in general), and not everyone is going to be able to evade the killer for that reason. All it takes is for the killer to find one survivor without multiple gens being done and tunnelling is still very much an option for them.
YOU can evade the killer long enough to make tunnelling YOU not appealing, but that only works if one or maybe two players on the team are trying for it. Tunnelling is still a problem from a holistic perspective.
i agree not everyone is going to be able to evade the killer, thats their skill issue. its like saying not everyone will be able to loop the killer for 20 seconds….true, not everyone can but good loopers can.
as a solo player i go into the match with me in mind. so yes, i evade the killer and make me less appealing to be tunneled. i cant control what other people are doing but if they went into the match with a similar mindset of making themselves less appealing to being tunneled, used stealth while doing gens, lose line of sight, loop the killer for ages untill the killer abandons chase, it would put the team in a strong position to get gens done and win.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4032809#Comment_4032809
Playing stealthy doesn't prevent tunnelling, though, it at best delays it.
Unless you're so stealthy you aren't ever hooked, you are still able to be tunnelled, because the killer just has to chase you after you're unhooked for that.
delaying it is all thats needed. delay it long enough for gens to be done. less killers would tunnel if it meant they got 1k or 2k at best.
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4032785#Comment_4032785
If you're not being chased by the Killer, you're not being tunneled. Which means you're not actually countering tunneling.
the counter is preventing it before it starts. just like a counter to noed is clear the totems during the match to prevent it activating at the end. or predropping pallets, its preventing whats to come. losing line of sight while being tunneled is another way to counter it
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4032769#Comment_4032769
The problem is that the survivor wincon is personal escape and this imaginary badge of honor people want you to accept for getting your teammates out is supposed to be enough, even though all you get is MMR loss and another death on your record no matter how great you were. It's even more frustrating when it was a hard tunnel, because you know it could have been a 4e. Meanwhile, someone with a hatch offering can rat in locker and get no MMR loss and an escape on their personal stats while being skillless. The game doesn't properly reward survivors for skill.
The game doesn't properly reward survivors for skill.
Exactly. Skill is not always a requirement. if skill was a requirement then it would mean only the really good skilful loopers get rewarded because it takes 0 skill to rat out the match avoiding gens and 0 skill actually doing gens while the pro looper is showcasing their skills.
the debate on if the game is casual or comp is never ending, should it be casual where skill isnt required or should it be comp where you get rewarded for your skills?
on the flip side, it could be seen as a killer spreading hooks and still winning is skilful but a tunneling killer shows 0 skill. should the game be skill based which would push the competitive nature or should it be casual where skills are not a requirement to win.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4032778#Comment_4032778
Oh yeah, I see rat gameplay all the time.
Hate seeing it.
i didnt say anything about rat gameplay. i said stealth. rats hide out all match avoiding the gens and not going for saves. stealth players actually do gens while being stealthy or use stealth to keep the killer busy instead of looping. there is a big difference.
every match i take a toolbox with me. my playstyle is stealth. why would i take a toolbox if im going rat the whole match avoiding the gens? stealth gameplay is not rat gameplay at all
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4032770#Comment_4032770
Where's the footage
there are many clips on youtube of survivors playing stealth if you search for it. i have literally used stealth many times to keep a killer busy without being in chase. make a loud noise, and use stealthy skills to remain unseen while the killer spends ages looking. they move away, i make another loud noise, they come back and search. several killers have DC'd over it because like 2 gens have popped while they have been searching for a ghost.
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lol i do enjoy these "tunneling is bad" posts… the means to counter it are there. learn to loop, learn to lose line of sight, learn to stealth, learn to make better decisons (when in chase run away from the gens), generally learn to play. so many people have this 1 track mindset of survivor role of loop loop loop and when that fails they throw a tantrum and say "there is no counter".
let me fill you in on a little secret….. there is more to playing survivor than looping. you dont have to get chased at all if you play it right.
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you mean pay people money to actually test the game? lol im sure that hasnt been done since the 90's. games these days get released and updated first then patched up later. the players are free testers for them. They just dont do games like they used to lol
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@Khastrx said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4032006#Comment_4032006
I don't think you are aware of the concept called "entitlement". No player wants to be the first injured, shot, killed, sacrificed, looped for 5 gens etc whatever the objective is in a game, and when it does happen; some players will just DC whether out of frustration or as stated; entitlement. Telling them to play something else often falls on deaf ears because they will still continue to play the game regardless. Of course in this case a lot of this is also BHVR's fault, they constantly make questionable decisions and/or leave frustrating things in the game (for both sides), yet all they did was create an even worse and flawed penalty system; which clearly was a poor excuse to cover up their own incompetence at failing to address the core issues that still go unresolved to this day. (Not saying their should not be penalties, but it's also currently a joke deterrent).
thats exactly why penalties need to be harsher, to stop people from playing the game and then DCing out of entitlement. if they are frustrated for whatever reason its time to take a break. first to be found or injured or hooked or whatever reason they give, like you say they will DC but they cant do that if the penalty restricts them from playing.
Its like griefers that find fun by ruining matches for other people… they will do it regardless simply because they can. The answer is stop them playing.
To me, allowing DCing is no different to allowing griefing or hacking. simply put, they ruin the match. Telling hackers "dont use hacks to cheat" will fall on deaf ears too but we shouldn't allow them do freely do it. Same applies to DCing.
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@jmwjmw27 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031795#Comment_4031795
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/TOXZJL2KFLP4/image.png
Oh wise runningguy, please tell me how to learn to play this new dumpster pallet with sides so short victor would be jealous.
to be fair i think a lot of people have taken it for granted that almost any pallet is strong or near a strong pallet. just kinda backs up my play style really, stealth. not much of an issue if you dont get chased. luckily i have had practice with this which has meant tunneling hasnt been an issue. so far the pallet changes havnt made much difference to me
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@Nerchanild said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031936#Comment_4031936
If all that was holding the game up was the scourge of the DC penalty, then that will be very telling that there is no redeeming qualities for the game that retains players. You surrender in COD you lose match bonus. Why does BHVR want you to have NOTHING if you DC? It would be one thing if I could reconnect, but no, you have a little bit of spottiness and BOOM you've "DC'd", no bloodpoints, penalty, you get NOTHING! That's not a way to run a game, bro.
- dbd is 4 v 1 not 6 v 6
- just because people can DC leaving their team at a disadvantage in other games doesnt mean it should happen in all games
- if your going to DC over any little thing then maybe the game isnt for you? i mean why bother joining a match if your going to DC? just dont play. if i played cod and didnt like being shot at, i wouldnt start a match and then DC the second im shot, i wouldnt play it.
- using cod is a very bad example because cod is notorious for its toxic player base that has people join matches with the only intention of greifing team mates. you saying dbd should be like that?
- allowing DCing freely would 100% kill the player base of dbd. survivors DC and the killer is left alone with bots….not fun. killers DC and the match ends instantly…not fun.
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@Nerchanild said:
It needs to be removed if anything. You incentive players in a game to stay by having a fun game to play, not by forcing them to stay in the match. It's been a scourge stick masquerading as a "feature" now for years. Remove it if you want the game long term to be healthy.
lol ye remove it and watch how many people DC just because they can or the dont like going against spirit or they wanted to play RPD but got wreckers or they wanted to go for blind but found out killer has lightborn…. sounds like a fun game….
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@MoZo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031830#Comment_4031830
the picture i sent was literally a old filler that got massively reduced in size and safety.
its rng, it wont be the same all the time which is a good thing
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@MoZo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031795#Comment_4031795
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/RQT6CNM33KCR/img-5481.jpeg
please tell me with the straightest face that this is ok and that i need to “learn to actually play.” any killer with at least 3 minutes of playtime can get a hit at this loop in less than 8 seconds.
@Ghost77 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031795#Comment_4031795
Did you test the Macmillan, Autoheaven, Asylum, and Swamp maps? The pallets they added are a joke for the survivors. I don't think learning to play under those conditions is worth it.
they added pallets….they didnt change the pallets that were already there. pointless pallets i agree but i dont think more pallets were needed to begin with. just means we have to be more observant instead of running for the first pallet we see knowing its probably a good one.
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@MoZo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031802#Comment_4031802
this gets said every single year. killer players will not leave in mass. what game will they go to?? it’s the harsh reality of dbd being the only popular and long lasting horror asym game. killer players will be upset and yeah some may quit but the vast majority will still continue to play the game.
im pretty sure they will. i have been a killer main for years, the past 4 or 5 months i have stopped playing killer so much and im only playing soloq survivor with the odd killer match now and then. if the changes went through i would never touch killer again. i know im just one person but if thats my view on it, im sure there are many others that feel the same way. dbd might be the only asym game at the moment but like i said if a killer main of many years like myself is more than prepared to jump ship and main survivor then im sure others would too and lead to a lack of killers.
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@MoZo said:
it will never come because the moment the devs even propose an idea to reduce tunneling and slugging, people will go ballistic until it is scrapped. all the way back in february when the og qol roadmap was released, people were already talking about how phase 2 was “the end of dbd” because they seen the devs were planning to address anti slug, camp and tunnel. the devs would have to rip the bandaid off and just ship the changes to live because no matter how they go about addressing slugging and tunneling, there will always be people who rely on these strategies raging about it being nerfed in anyway.
i dont think its about people complaining, its about the very real reality that killers will stop playing killer. like it or not, with no killers there is no game.
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@crookedAbe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031167#Comment_4031167
Even in the 3-gen meta killers tunneled, people don’t tunnel because they’re losing they do it because it’s literally the best strategy. No amount of gen regression will change that.
im not saying killers wont tunnel, there are some that will tunnel no matter what. im saying if people want tunneling to stop, harsh nerfs are needed to make tunneling impossible. these level of nerfs cant be introduced without gen speeds being nerfed because there are a lot of players to simply wouldnt get kills without tunneling.
take it from a tunneler myself, i tunnel at 5 gens pretty often because if i dont i struggle to hit the 60% kill rate. any meaningful nerfs to tunneling that would stop me doing it would impact my kill rate. how do the devs keep that 40/60 kill rate after nerfing tunneling? by allowing killers more time.
previously, people have said anti tunnel is too punishing. That wouldnt matter if gens got nerfed too.
introducing anti tunnel without allowing killers time to spread hooks just wont happen as we are currently seeing with each failed ptb.
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in a way i agree, but i think both sides need to bite the bullet. killers need to bite bullet with tunneling being impossible to do and survivors need to bite the bullet with having gen speeds nerfed.
Fact is, when i play killer, gens fly so fast i dont have time to spread hook in a lot of cases. im happy to not tunnel, give me time to spread hooks and i wont tunnel.
for the health of the game, its best to not just look at the problem area (tunneling) but also look at the cause of the problem area (gens). dealing with tunneling without addressing why killers tunnel will only lead to the killer role being killed off entirely.
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@Billy_Loomis691710 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4013496#Comment_4013496
Yeah well you just haven't played against me yet... I'll tunnel you outta the game before 1 gen gets done you locker turtle
if you can catch me lol. even if you did tunnel me out of the game before 1 gen gets done….its 1 match out of hundreds…. i dont mind taking the loss now and then when i win more than i lose :)
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030558#Comment_4030558
And does that make the killers who want Trapper to be buffed happy?
dont have to be happy about it, just need to accept it. if killers are not happy with the state trapper is in, dont play trapper….which many dont to be fair
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030555#Comment_4030555
i disagree with tunneling killers being being decimated at high mmr, i been tunneling for years since swf made it impossible to win without tunneling. tunneling doesnt only work v bad survivors it works against some good survivors too. not always but it works enough to keep that 60% kill rate1: Then your entire argument had been a non-sequitur because I was specifically replying to Classic_Rando's argument.
2: Earlier you said:
tunneling can be a very bad tactic to use if survivors actually know what they are doingNot sure how this lines up with what you are saying now.
being swf doesnt mean they will get better at all which is why so many swf players refuse to play solo, they admit soloq is rough and they just cant win.Strawman, no one in a SWF ever has to play soloq, and SWFs are not so strong that just being in one is going to carry bad players against a strong killer.
if we go on what makes players happy then we have already killed the game because its a 2 sided game. make 1 side happy and the other side wont be. players are not happy with being hooked hanging there with nothing to do…should we get hooks removed?Oversimplification. People discuss things. What would be the impact, would it make the game better, etc.
It's also incredibly wrong to presume that doing things for one side makes the other unhappy. If I won every chase I was in it wouldn't be fun. You have to find the right balance.
chase is fun? so no issue with being tunneled then, they are getting chased right? gens are boring but survivors enjoy chases….cant really complain about that.I'll just repeat myself because this was already addressed -
We're not even talking about the tunneled target, we're discussing the people who are countering it by focusing on gens.thats why if tunneling is going to be addressed it would need some give and take from survivors to allow it to happen. you cant just focus on tunneling, it wont work as is currently being shown time and time again with failed ptb.If the fact that BHVR didn't go through with something is proof of failure, then being BHVR has said they won't touch SWFs mean they must be okay?
Version 9.2 of the PTB literally had things that were being given to the killer. Lots of people thought BHVR needed to refine those ideas, its silly to say survivors were asking for things and totally opposed to the idea of killers getting something.
tunneling can be a very bad tactic v good survivors that know what they are doing. it can also be a good tactic…. its not 100%. it works and doesnt work which is how it should be. no tactic should work all the time but it works enough for the 60% kill rate. like i said my matches where i tunnel v swf teams are balanced close matches. sometimes i win, sometimes i dont, how it should be.
you cant just dismiss a valid point by saying strawman lol. no one is swf has to play solo? they do if they want to play the game when their friends are no online which many have and many have also said they just cant win in solo but by your argument they should be able to win in solo because they should have improved by being in swf. being in a swf does mean a bad survivor can hide out all match not getting into chases if the rest of the swf is good enough. to say otherwise is just flat out wrong.
as for doing gens….like i already said, thats the role they chose they cant complain about doing gens being boring. its ridiculous to say its unfun doing gens all match. its like saying "meh i done 1 gen on my own, im bored now, i want to get in the killers face and get chased" no lol get back to doing gens, dont like it? dont pick survivor as far as im concerned.
swf is ok, bhvr has said they wont touch swf and wont ban comms….killers have adapted, like myself, i tunnel as a counter balance to swf using comms. not a problem. at this point people should accept tunneling will remain part of the game so its time to adapt…like myself, i changed playstyle and i have no issues with tunneling killers.
survivors were opposed to killers getting something that meant it was easier for killers to get downs and the parts they were not opposed to was because they know what was given to killers wasnt helpful at all so why would they care if killers got something? its like saying survivors get 1 extra pallet per map if survivors couldnt loop a pallet more than once, its nothing. killers wouldnt care survivors get something along with the nerf because they would know its meaningless. which is the issue, give and take on both sides where tunneling gets nerfed and gen speeds gets nerfed. something thats actually meaningful and makes a difference, thats what the playbase will never agree to. i have always said the only thing that will stop me tunneling is if i have time to spread hooks…. you can give me a pathetic little haste as my reward but if it doesnt mean i can keep up with gen speeds then im going to tunnel. so far not one single survivor has accepted this, its been a unanimous NO. as a player base, survivors only have themselves to blame when they dont listen to the reasons and solutions put forward by the tunnelers.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030508#Comment_4030508
Which isn't what survivors were asking for. Survivors were asking for a better game, not more pallets.
If killers asked for buffs to the D tier killers, and then BHVR just randomly buffed Nurse, I wouldn't expect the killer players to be happy with the decision.
people have been asking for buffs for D tier killers for years, killers like trapper lol. who gets buffs? literally every single killer other than trapper.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030545#Comment_4030545
"Why should "bad" killers have a strategy that works wonders against "bad" survivors, that is going to lead to them getting crushed later? That just leads to people rushing to complain about how "good" survivors are unbeatable."which is why i mention swf on comms being used to win so when they play soloq or go against good killers they will get crushed then complain the killers are op and demand nerfs.I'll try the same thing I did earlier: let's presume you are completely right about SWFs.
Being in a SWF will always keep the strength, they will likely actually grow as they get better at it. You have a clear difference between my statement and what you are trying to say. If tunneling only works against bad survivors, but then leads to killers being decimated at high MMR, its a reason to change it. SWFs do and will continue to provide a benefit if everything you say is correct.
i think if your picking survivor then yes most people should be happy with doing only gens or dont pick that role.I didn't ask if you think they should be happy, I asked if you think they are happy. You can't have a viable game where you just say 'people should do this', especially when it encompasses 80% of the needed players.
as killer im not going to complain about always being in chase1: Being in chase is fun. It's easy to point out the differences between engagements levels of chasing a survivor vs just sitting on a gen.
2: Killers complain about elements of the chase all the time. Which, again, is fine.
im saying the view of survivor mains pushing for tunneling nerfs with the reasoning being "its not fun" has to be viewed the same way for killersUnfun things are and have been changed for killers. I don't know where you get the idea that there is a disconnect here. Most recently OTR was changed on the arguments of it being weaponized, something killers complained about as not being fun.
tunneling can be a very bad tactic to use if survivors actually know what they are doing. im a survivor main these days and im doing fine with tunneling killers so i dont see an issue or a need to address it.And as I've been saying, if true, what's the harm in weakening it for the players who aren't as good at the game? If what you're saying is correct it will lead to killers playing better against good survivors because it won't lead to them pursuing a doomed strategy.
they want tunneling nerfed because its too strong yet refuse to accept that there are survivor side things that are also too strong such as swf on comms, pallet increased, gen speeds.You're confusing disagreements with double standards. Every individual player likely has their own list of things that are too strong or weak on either side. The fact that someone might disagree with your specific list of issues doesn't mean there is a double standard, just as a killer saying tunneling shouldn't be nerfed but SWFs should is also not a double standard, its just an argument.
to show there are no double standards the player base a whole needs to understandI've been talking about strawmans for awhile. If you're going to discuss the player base as a whole you can basically put any argument in as its more of a concept.
if they want unfun things like tunneling to stop then they need to look at the other side and understand there are things that need changing there tooDiscussing a game does require an understanding of both sides, sure. But starting from the premise that both sides right now are in perfect equilibrium is not correct. If one side has more problems than the other then it makes perfect sense for that side to get the focus of BHVR's adjustments.
but you cant say tunneling is unfun to justify a nerf and not accept when a killer says loops are unfun or gen speeds are unfun or comms are unfun to justify a nerf in those areas.Of course someone can, just as I said earlier a killer could argue that tunneling is fine but SWFs need to be nerfed. The idea of one side having a problem does not inherently necessitate the other side having the same equal level of problem (before we even get into ideas such as what changing said game elements would have on the overall game, the difficulty of implementing possible changes, or whether the ideas you bring up are actually reflected by a significant portion of the playerbase).
i disagree with tunneling killers being being decimated at high mmr, i been tunneling for years since swf made it impossible to win without tunneling. tunneling doesnt only work v bad survivors it works against some good survivors too. not always but it works enough to keep that 60% kill rate. my killer matches have been fairly balanced when i tunnel because im getting swf teams so often.
being swf doesnt mean they will get better at all which is why so many swf players refuse to play solo, they admit soloq is rough and they just cant win. if swf meant these players got better they wouldnt have an issue in solo. they rely on the swf and comms, take them away and they cant win. low tier killers rely on tunneling, take that away and they cant win…generally speaking.
if we go on what makes players happy then we have already killed the game because its a 2 sided game. make 1 side happy and the other side wont be. players are not happy with being hooked hanging there with nothing to do…should we get hooks removed? if they are not happy then show it by not playing. its baffling that players pick a role which the objective is boring to them.
chase is fun? so no issue with being tunneled then, they are getting chased right? gens are boring but survivors enjoy chases….cant really complain about that.
i understand killer issues have been dealt with due to being unfun as some survivor issues have, like the abandon option. im not disputing that fact im talking about the clear resistance from the community regarding the nerfs that need to happen to survivors so they get tunneling nerfed, something that will benefit both sides and the game as a whole….things like nerfing strong loops or nerfing gens so killers dont have to rely on tunneling. you cant just focus on one side thats having issues when the issues spawn from the other side having issues. thats why if tunneling is going to be addressed it would need some give and take from survivors to allow it to happen. you cant just focus on tunneling, it wont work as is currently being shown time and time again with failed ptb.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030501#Comment_4030501
there have been so many people that play swf then try solo and after a few matches they say "never playing solo again" "soloq is rough" because they get demolished. these bad players that cant last in soloq use their swf with comms. they need to use swf to win, just like slow killers with no speed often need to tunnel. but you have just shown 1 double standard by saying poor survivors can win v good or bad killer but a poor killer shouldnt be able to pick up a win v poor or good survivors.I never said a poor killer shouldn't be able to pick up a win vs poor or good survivors (though rationally speaking if a poor killer is frequently winning against good survivors the game has issues).
If I was designing the game just for me, I'd rip SWFs out if it. But its not for me and a red herring to the discussion that you seem to be trying to force in that isn't related to what I've said or the context of who I was responding to.
i have fun on gens, i know its my objective and i understand thats what im supposed to do so i do it. what ruins the game is the type of person that says "gens are boring" so they try getting chased and no gens get done. i would much rather these people didnt bother playing survivor since they refuse to do the objective they signed up for. i play to win, if sitting on a gen all match gets me the win thats fine by me.After the first sentence all of this is a strawman as I never said anything close to any of that
As for the first sentence, gens are only the part of the game. To try and pull it back to the actual example: do you believe most players would enjoy doing nothing but gens and leaving?
you make it sound like being looped is the only way to make a game, there are countless ways to make a fun game that doesnt involve going in circlesEarlier you said:
if you dont like doing that [gens] i dont think survivor is for you.If a person doesn't like looping then DbD probably isn't for them (for both survivors and killers)
Looping is a core part of what DbD is. Which is fine, there's lots of games that have other mechanics, but BHVR has more and more leaned into the chase as a key aspect of what players come to DbD for.
as for healthy game, killer and survivor should get treated the same way, if a killer who doesnt enjoy being looped is told "thats the game" "learn to counter loops" then survivors that get tunneled should be told the same thing "thats the game" "learn to counter being tunneled". the double standard is shown when survivors say to a killer "we know tunneling is very efficient and the best way to achieve your goal but dont do it" when a killer says to a survivor "i know looping is the very efficient and the best way to last longer in chase but just dont do it".This misses an incredibly obvious point - looping does get adjusted. Certain loops that are too strong (efficient) are nerfed, perks are adjusted, killers get bloodlust as the chase goes on, and if we go back far enough we even have the three loop window block (and yes, sometimes BHVR also makes it stronger, just like if BHVR actually went through with anti-tunnel they would inevitably strengthen and weaken it over time).
In this push for a double standard you are missing that these issues are discussed and adjusted. None of the changes BHVR proposed would eliminate tunneling.
Again, you're arguing with a strawman to try and say killers and survivors aren't being treated the same. How strong should anti-tunnel be is not an us vs them issue. How strong should looping be is not an us vs them issue. Both are nuanced discussions about where to draw lines on the strength of certain things.
well "what are killers supposed to do if not tunnel?" let the weaker survivor go intentionally making getting kills harder?Now we're switching to killer ethics which has not been argued before.
What anti-tunnel proposed was increasing the risk/cost of tunneling a survivor. Right now tunneling has a few risks, a survivor rescuing with Babysitter or a DS for example. A killer has to consider these risks when deciding who to go for. By and large though, tunneling is way too strong on the risk vs reward factor, is primarily decided based on a guessing game in the loading screen, and creates an unenjoyable game for the other survivors.
Saying 'hey, maybe we should increase the difficulty of doing this, given all of that' is not some strange double standard. It has happened frequently to survivor things that were way too strong (which, to be clear, is perfectly fine)
surly you can see the double standard there.You're trying to create your own argument to show a double standard which isn't actually tied to things I say, and is avoiding the context of who I was originally responding to.
swf is directly relating to the issue your talking about. your talking about tunneling being used as an easy tactic so a bad killer can win. swf on comms is just as easy if not more easy and it helps bad survivors win. you said …
"Why should "bad" killers have a strategy that works wonders against "bad" survivors, that is going to lead to them getting crushed later? That just leads to people rushing to complain about how "good" survivors are unbeatable."
which is why i mention swf on comms being used to win so when they play soloq or go against good killers they will get crushed then complain the killers are op and demand nerfs.
i think if your picking survivor then yes most people should be happy with doing only gens or dont pick that role. as killer im not going to complain about always being in chase, thats ridiculous. if they are not happy only doing gens then survivor isnt for them as far as im concerned. Its these people that hate doing gens and still play survivor that are so against gen speeds being nerfed along with tunneling being stopped. they want the tunneling bit to stop but they wont have gens take longer to allow killers more time to spread hooks.
im not saying killers and survivors are not treated the same by the devs… i think they are. im saying the view of survivor mains pushing for tunneling nerfs with the reasoning being "its not fun" has to be viewed the same way for killers. if its not viewed the same way then it invalidated the entire argument of "its not fun" to justify a nerf because killers can say looping isnt fun so nerf it. or gen speeds fly so its not fun for the killer so nerf it. try getting survivors to agree to that, wont happen.
tunneling has huge risks. there is no gen pressure for starters, if the killer tunnels a strong looper its pretty much game over the killer. tunneling can be a very bad tactic to use if survivors actually know what they are doing. im a survivor main these days and im doing fine with tunneling killers so i dont see an issue or a need to address it.
again, im not saying the double standard is from the devs its from the playerbase a whole. they want tunneling nerfed because its too strong yet refuse to accept that there are survivor side things that are also too strong such as swf on comms, pallet increased, gen speeds.
to show there are no double standards the player base a whole needs to understand, if they want unfun things like tunneling to stop then they need to look at the other side and understand there are things that need changing there too. but you cant say tunneling is unfun to justify a nerf and not accept when a killer says loops are unfun or gen speeds are unfun or comms are unfun to justify a nerf in those areas. thats what i mean by double standards.
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@Colt45m said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030524#Comment_4030524
Killer is too brainless and easy to 4k or 3k every match. So yes I play survivor because its much more challenging.
enjoy the challenge then :)
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@Colt45m said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030504#Comment_4030504
There IS no counter. None. If killer proxycamps and decides to down you off hook there is zero counterplay. You are dead regardless of skill.
for there to be NO counter it would mean tunneling would work 100% of the time so killers would be getting 100% kill rate which i know killers are not getting 100% kill rate.
i play almost exclusively solo survivor the past few months and im countering tunneling pretty often.
the counter for when your the one being tunneled….
- stealth….killer cant tunnel what they cant find so if you remove the chase before it starts, problem solved.
- when in chase, lose line of sight. there are perks that help with this.
- practice looping, if the killer spends too much time looping you, they will either give up chase or they will end up losing the match.
- take the chase AWAY from the gens so others can do them while your being chased.
when your not being tunneled…..
- do gens and do them fast.
- dont unhook too soon, use the hook timer to your advantage to do gens then unhook just before 2nd stage.
- dont play too altruistically, help the team if it benefits you. if you can do the last gens while the killer is tunneling someone out then do the gens and escape.
if more people did pretty simple things that meant the killer would end up with 2k at best then killers wouldnt tunnel so often because it wouldnt be worth it. If no gens are being done while your being tunneled and on hook then thats an issue with your team mates, not tunneling.
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@Colt45m said:
More good mechanics cancelled and now the games back to proxy camp tunnel city. They even are taking pallets away from maps. I hope you're happy now. The games going to be even more miserable and busted for killers. Yayyy…
and still survivors will complain while still Qing up match after match and refusing to actually counter such tactics. when will people learn? tunneling will always remain so my advice is learn to counter it or get tunneled….or just dont play.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030487#Comment_4030487
survivors can sit on a gen and do nothing while team mates deal with the killer… why should that survivor working on gens thats bad at loops and bad at every other aspect of the game, why should they escape and beat the killer?An individual survivor can be pulled up by the others, just as a really good survivor can be pulled down by a bad survivors.
That's how any game works. DbD is just unique in that one side is a group, and the other side is an individual.
swf on comms, the comms alone can provide huge benefits to steam roll a bad killer but then when they go against a good blight, they suddenly struggle and say blight is op.Comms provide an advantage, sure, but otherwise this is a red herring.
my point is if you apply it to one side you have to apply it to the other side or it shows double standards.If you can show a double standard sure, but you just have unrelated arguments.
I was taking my argument based on presuming the other posters point was true. Which if I simplify it down, if it only works against bad survivors, what is the harm in nerfing it?
what is an enjoyable game? whats fun for you isnt always whats fun for the someone elseSure, that's just a part of games.
being tunneled might not be fun for youAnd you've already tried to change my point and avoided the position I was responding to.
How many people have fun just doing gens? We're not even talking about the tunneled target, we're discussing the people who are countering it by focusing on gens.
but being looped might not be fun for the killerBut then what game do you have?
do survivors care if the killer is getting frustrated by being looped the whole match and having no fun?Us vs Them distraction. What will make a healthy game? Don't try and turn it into sides.
gens is literally the survivor objective, not chases. you play that role to do gens to escape. if you dont like doing that i dont think survivor is for you. its like a killer complaining about killing survivors…. thats the point to the role…thats the objective.At no point have you said only doing gens is fun. You've just tried to talk circles around the obvious.
there have been so many people that play swf then try solo and after a few matches they say "never playing solo again" "soloq is rough" because they get demolished. these bad players that cant last in soloq use their swf with comms. they need to use swf to win, just like slow killers with no speed often need to tunnel. but you have just shown 1 double standard by saying poor survivors can win v good or bad killer but a poor killer shouldnt be able to pick up a win v poor or good survivors.
i have fun on gens, i know its my objective and i understand thats what im supposed to do so i do it. what ruins the game is the type of person that says "gens are boring" so they try getting chased and no gens get done. i would much rather these people didnt bother playing survivor since they refuse to do the objective they signed up for. i play to win, if sitting on a gen all match gets me the win thats fine by me.
you make it sound like being looped is the only way to make a game, there are countless ways to make a fun game that doesnt involve going in circles…. as for healthy game, killer and survivor should get treated the same way, if a killer who doesnt enjoy being looped is told "thats the game" "learn to counter loops" then survivors that get tunneled should be told the same thing "thats the game" "learn to counter being tunneled". the double standard is shown when survivors say to a killer "we know tunneling is very efficient and the best way to achieve your goal but dont do it" when a killer says to a survivor "i know looping is the very efficient and the best way to last longer in chase but just dont do it". its not fun being tunneled, its not fun being looped.
"what are survivors supposed to do instead of loop?" is often the response… dont loop intentioanlly make chases harder for myself?
well "what are killers supposed to do if not tunnel?" let the weaker survivor go intentionally making getting kills harder?
surly you can see the double standard there.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030451#Comment_4030451
I play both sides about equally, and tunneling rarely works when survivors know how to deal with it.For the sake of argument, let's say this is true:
Tunneling should absolutely be addressed.
1: First of all, this takes out all the killers who are saying 'you don't understand, you need to tunnel at high MMR'.
2: Why should "bad" killers have a strategy that works wonders against "bad" survivors, that is going to lead to them getting crushed later? That just leads to people rushing to complain about how "good" survivors are unbeatable.
3: This deals with none of the arguments about what is actually an enjoyable game. Great, the tunneled target runs the killer, everyone else just does gens and leaves. How is that a good game?
thats like saying why should bad survivors have a strat to beat bad killers but then get steam rolled when they go against good killers….. 2 examples of this…
- survivors can sit on a gen and do nothing while team mates deal with the killer… why should that survivor working on gens thats bad at loops and bad at every other aspect of the game, why should they escape and beat the killer?
- swf on comms, the comms alone can provide huge benefits to steam roll a bad killer but then when they go against a good blight, they suddenly struggle and say blight is op.
my point is if you apply it to one side you have to apply it to the other side or it shows double standards.
also people say the need to tunnel in high mmr when playing low tier killers. S tier killers like blight and nurse dont need to tunnel but the vast majority of the roster do need to.
what is an enjoyable game? whats fun for you isnt always whats fun for the someone else… being tunneled might not be fun for you but being looped might not be fun for the killer. do survivors care if the killer is getting frustrated by being looped the whole match and having no fun? no. i dont think survivors can complain about sitting on a gen being boring when 1 person loops the killer the whole time. gens is literally the survivor objective, not chases. you play that role to do gens to escape. if you dont like doing that i dont think survivor is for you. its like a killer complaining about killing survivors…. thats the point to the role…thats the objective.
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ye im going to keep playing soloq survivor, im fine with it as is. maybe if others stop playing i wont get such lousy team mates or people going next….these are the ones i hope stop playing