ratcoffee
ratcoffee
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3783462#Comment_3783462
I literally explained how those averages apply to the balancing of a total asymmetrical game like DbD, why it needs to be those averages, and indirectly explained how what you said doesn't contradict any of it, and in fact, it complements those kill distributions (those "uneven data sets" the game obviously has and no one ever argued it doesn't) you are trying to use to counter-argument it in terms of balancing, but I'm "utterly unfamiliar with how to apply the concept of averages to anything".
Right. But it's me who is "jumping hoops of logic to suit my narrative".
you explained incorrectly. the fact that there is such high variance in the data set is a reason specifically to Not extrapolate based on the average of all those data, not a reason you Have to. this is what I mean, you fundamentally don't understand why just the average kill rate is not a helpful stat for the kind of analysis you're trying to do
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3783462#Comment_3783462
1.53 is interesting.
On the data, I would not have guessed the 1k and 3k rates would be so close, that's neat.
Hey, wasn't this thread about Trapper or something and you were asking for community thoughts?
I don't think its too surprising. If you play all out/ruthless and are good with the killer, you are going to win most of your matches. Trapper especially can snowball, and if anything goes his way early in the game and you're willing to camp you can set up a pretty devastating scenario.
I'd be curious over a 100 matches what his worst results were. Like were there games where he only got one or two hooks because he couldn't get the snowball rolling or he hit a SWF that counter played him from the start.
It's not as eye opening as the no power trapper challenges Hens and others did a while back.
his breakdown of various different outcomes
he said most of the 3k, 1 outs were because he failed to control both doors, only 2-3 were hatch escapes.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3783438#Comment_3783438
I'm not sure if you're backing up what I'm saying or misreading what I said because I think we agree (sorry, being extra careful in this thread at the moment).
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3783424#Comment_3783424
No, again, the problem is that you don't know what an average is. Let's take 10 players in 10 matches, 5 of them do only 3Ks, the other 5 only 1Ks. The average kills per match is 2 survivors killed per match, which is a 50% kill rate per match on average, which again, means that killers draw their matches on average.In that scenario you have a kill rate of 50% and a winrate of 50%. More specifically you have a winrate of 50%, a loss rate of 50%, and a draw rate of 0%.
Also I don't know what would actually be the problem with that hypothetical scenario.
You could also have a scenario of: 2 4ks, 3 3ks, 1 2k, 1 1k, and 3 0 ks (one of many random possibilities). That's still a kill rate of 50%, but you now have a winrate of 50%, a loss rate of 40%, and a draw rate of 10%. Unless you know the probability of the five different game outcomes (not even getting into hatch), you can't mathematically determine the kill rate percentage you need to determine what would create a winrate parity (not that a winrate parity is even necessary, but if that was your goal that's what you'd need).
oh yeah i'm not trying to argue with you, i'm trying to back up what you're saying with extra evidence - kill rate and win rate only have the tiniest corrolation
as far as Bathusalen goes, i've found he's overconfident in his knowledge on a lot of topics. he's aware of the process of calculating an average, but utterly unfamiliar with how to apply the concept of averages to anything. he takes people's rightly pointing out he's applying averages incorrectly, he assumes the person in question doesn't understand how averages work, not that he might have used the concept wrong. if I told him the standard deviation for kill rate across games was 38.3%, that is to say, +- 1.53 kills per game, i doubt he would know what to do with that information.
calculations for the stdev of kill rate being 1.53, btw:
S_comp is the component of the sum of square differences associated with all matches that result in an n-kill game. STDEV(kr) is for kill rate, (k/g) is for kills per game. Everything else is self explanatory i think
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3783233#Comment_3783233
Like, how hard is it to understand that if the average killrate is 2K, and a 2K is a draw, thenon averagekillers never win, as they draw? I mean, seriously. You guys are seriously not getting that...Because that's not what you've been arguing/stating. To go back to one of your earlier posts:
Why? Because of how the MMR works, only a 3K or more is a win for the killer, and survivors only need to escape themselves to win. Ergo, a 60% kill rate means a 40% win rateon average(I repeat:ON AVERAGEand I can't emphasize it more)In your most recent post you are using the phrase 'on average' to mean the most common result, but in the earlier you are using average to calculate a percentage (i.e. a mean). The concept of a winrate calls for a percentage, not a general statement. This is why saying things like 0% winrate are so non-sensical.
Beyond that, a 60% killrate is not needed to ensure parity. That's still wrong. Technically speaking, you could have a kill rate below 50% and still have a winrate above 50% based on game design (that's not true of DbD, but I'm back to pointing out the importance of uneven data sets).
you can absolutely have a kill rate below 50% and a win rate above it. 60% of games ending in a 3k, and the remaining 40% ending in a 4 out - ends up being a 60% win rate, but only a 45% kill rate.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3783093#Comment_3783093
Now "an average" is "super tortured logic" and trolling. My entity…
A 2K on average means that killers have a 0% win rate on average because there will be people that do more than that 2K and people that do less. That's why it is AN AVERAGE. It is pure, simple, basic math.
And yes, anything more than a 2K would be a win, as the MMR win conditions state that a 3K is a win, but no, anything less won't be a survivor win because survivors have their own win conditions, and that's why BHVR doesn't deal with win rates or pure kill distributions, because then it will be impossible to balance the game between killers and survivors thanks to the total and complete asymmetrical nature of it.
And no, a "2.4K" on average won't mean a 100% winrate because you have the ".4" part, and if you do the math, it means that killers get a 3K about 40% of the time on average, and that's why a 60% kill rate / 2.4 survivors killed per match on average means a 40% win rate for both sides on average.
Seriously, I'd pay to see how some people's brains work.
Hey man, I would love it if you could help me out here. You say that the average win rate of killers will be 0%, and then you say that some killers will get more than a 2k.
Since the only possible numbers of kills greater than a 2k are 3 and 4, both of which are wins, that would mean that if some people are getting more than a 2k, then some people are winning. Wouldn't that then mean that the win rate cannot be 0%, because the only way a win rate is 0% is if nobody had ever won a game of killer?
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3782821#Comment_3782821
Batusalen: how do you calculate an average?
I've seen his posts before and he understands how to calculate an average, the problem is he doesn't understand why using an average for data that is not normally distributes is statistically speaking a mistake
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@NerfDHalready said:
3 pages?? i don't understand what about this post sparked this much of a discourse. like, does this post mean killers should get nerfed? trapper is too strong? what is it?
you don't go this deep into balance analysis based on soloq matchmaking. yes you can work with perkless and trapless trapper against a soloq team. just find and tunnel that looking straight default feng and tunnel them, if she doesn't give up halfway one of her teammates will. camp basement and noone will ever trade. what's the point being made if there is any, yes an even perkless and trapless trapper playing well is way way stronger than 4 randomly chosen soloq survivors (mmr is a myth).
The point I was trying to make was just that people who say "it's impossible to win as killer without slowdown, particularly as a low tier killer" are incorrect.
A lot of people, i think, assumed I was trying to make the point that killer is extremely OP and came in arguing against that point.
Also, there are some people arguing as to whether you can surmise rates of specific results from kill rate, an argument that happens whenever kill rate comes up. (Incidentally, the answer is no. Any win rate extrapolated solely from kill rate data is statistically useless)
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3782531#Comment_3782531
If the survival rate were 60%, which would mean an average of 1.6 survivors killed per match, guess what? That would mean a winrate of 0% on average for killers as again, a win for the killer is 3K. That's why it needs to be 40%, so both sides could be able to get to a 40% winrate on average, mathematically speaking.
It's not something we are just saying to "justify our bias", it is how the MMR system works (
https://deadbydaylight.fandom.com/wiki/Skill-Based_Matchmaking_Rating#General_Ratings
) and the reason why the devs want it to be 60% killrate. If you don't understand it or like it, is your problem.You're wrong - where you've gone wrong is that you fail to realize [the average of] [all the results] is not the same thing as [the average result]
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@bjorksnas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3780888#Comment_3780888
Here's a terrible argument
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/1DBLLC63ZP8C/image.png
Sources : None
Screenshots : None
Spreadsheets : None
Raw data : None
Time of data collection : None
Proof of data collection : None
You get the point its an image with numbers on it there are no conclusions to be drawn from it, Its as easily made up as it is disregarded because there's nothing behind it to analyze "someone else showed how easy this would be to spoof so it must be real" is not a good stance either this isn't innocent until proven guilty its bad data until supported by its sources
so what I'm getting from this is that you're saying "I can lie, therefore everything else should be treated as a lie as well". lmao
The dude DM'ed me screenshots of his nightlight on reddit so I believe him. You explicitly and openly were inventing things for the sole purpose of casting doubt on some numbers you found inconvenient. I would have had so much more respect for you if you'd just said "yeah I don't see enough proof" instead of going the extra mile to ms paint a new graphic.
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@bjorksnas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3780821#Comment_3780821
Wow you're so right I shouldn't analyze data I should accept it because it fits a narrative I want it to fit
Look at this new fresh data set I just made
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/30980MDBGZ29/image.png
Guess I should draw data from this
"look, I can lie, so that necessarily means that this other person was also lying" is a terrible argument.
I'm not saying the OP's data is a whole lot more trustworthy, I'm just saying they don't seem to have an agenda to push by making up the data like you do. If you want to discuss the data, please discuss the data instead of engaging in ridiculous charicature
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Personally I think these numbers show that we should nerf pig
Jokes Aside, the fact there were only 2 hatch escapes imo proves hatch is overly complained about
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@Jim_Tonic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3780095#Comment_3780095
Anti facecamp
Anti 3-gen
Anti tunneling
3 features that have been introduced into the game despite certain perks alredy existing. I think its totally reasonable when killers demand something too for a situation that is also very annoying to them.I totally agree that there should be some sort of mechanic that stops the whole "survivors hiding and not doing gens" scenario but I always hate when people use anti-tunnel as an argument for basically anything.
People always seem to forget that before basekit BT, killers could fairly reliably re-down survivors before they even regained control of their character. It's an absolute no brainer that never should have been a thing and bringing it up as an argument feels off base at best
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@Neaxolotl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3776622#Comment_3776622
Aren't they having fun in wasting killer's time and accomplishment of "stay hidden for the entire bleedout" tho
No
Satisfaction from getting "revenge" (you waste my time so I waste yours) is a fundamentally different experience than fun
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God I hope not, that would just be a strictly worse version of Object of Obsession. They need to keep the aura blocking.
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True. Also, survivors should not be punished for trying to do objective, so they should be invincible while on a gen.
...I trust you understand why this is a bad idea and why "being punished for playing the objective" is a bad argument
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@Aven_Fallen said:
IMO there are two ways to nerf Weave Attunement and still keep it decent:
- Let it only show the Aura while the Item has charges.
- Or - no Aura is shown when the Survivor is crouching and they get information where the Item is.
Number 1 would weaken the synergy with Franklins. Which would be fine IMO. They could buff it to compensate for it.
Number 2 would provide meaningful counterplay and, even more important, gives a way to actually locate the Item. Knowing that Weave Attunement is in play is nice, but you will have to perform some form of triangulation to actually find it.
The main problem is anyway that the counterplay is pretty bad, since it still gives huge value to the Killer (Aura Read two times, Oblivious and a big time sink) and that Survivors who want to perform the counterplay might not be able to do so, since they dont know where the Item is.
i mean, if they make the aura reading not work if the item has no charges, the perk has even less self-synergy (the drop-item-when-depleted part of the perk, that is)
If they choose to go that route, they would have to specify that items dropped by the effect of the perk also reveal auras
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if we're gonna go there, how many updates to address boring play styles before killer players realise they're not playing the way God intended?
I'm being a little tounge in cheek here, but seriously. why is it always Survivors failing to get good to deal with stuff and not killers fault for abusing playstyles the devs have said they don't want taking over the game, especially when those "survivor buffs" rarely affect normal gameplay
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@Crowman said:
What's weird to me is that somehow things would be balanced according to OP if half the killers received massive buffs and 15 survivor perks that see no use got minor number buffs. Since the "count" would be equal.
I think a better analogy would be, if survivors were given 10 extra health states and killers were given 0.05 second faster cooldowns on missed attacks - since his argument is centered around raw numbers of buffs, but based on his complaints I imagine he would object to that specific pair of changes (as would I tbh)
I hope by reading this he'd be able to get a little clearer idea of why looking at just the numbers is so uncompelling to so many of us
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Wouldn't call myself a survivor main but I think a whole lot of people on these forums would
Killers I would be fine with getting buffed: Trapper, Myers, Freddy, Pig, Clown, Ghost Face, Demogorgon
Killers I'd love to see tweaked (buffed in some places with minor nerfs in others): Wraith, Legion, Knight, Singularity, Xenomorph
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771765#Comment_3771765
^ this.
If a Survivor decides to run a Perk like Chemical Trap or Blast Mine over a Meta-Perk due to a Buff, I think this is a good thing.
And I am always amazed that Killers manage to ignore quite substancial things for them in this Patch, especially Dredge and Nemesis might be powerhouses with the changes.
Yeah, honestly with buffs to these perks it's almost like an indirect buff to killers. People will feel more empowered to use these perks that encourage survivors to [only partially complete a gen, then spend a bunch of time off gens trying to engage with the killer in order to get value.]
...OK, maybe "indirect buff to killers" is overselling it. But the perks that got buffed do encourage survivors to take a break from repairing if you want to get value, so one would hope killer players worried about survivors sticking to gens would be happy there are more reasons for survivors to not do that
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@legiondoctor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3772029#Comment_3772029
You made it us vs them i didnt i just said i want equal amount of buffs
Can you genuinely not see how "complaining that [us] didn't get as many buffs as [them] and asking for BHVR to increase the number of buffs to [us] to match the number of buffs to [them]," which is what you did in your post and are right now admitting to doing, is textbook Us vs Them?
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@BOOTtoFACE said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771949#Comment_3771949
Huh? His post states that he doesn't camp or tunnel. I don't know about the slugging though. He's not protesting about it?
I was referencing this post:
probably should have quoted it MB
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I've previously said that "every time something gets basekit buffed for survivor, people always come on here and threaten to tunnel, camp or slug in protest." Glad to see, once again, that this trend is holding strong.
I sincerely doubt that any threats to engage in [insert complained-about behavior here] as a [protest against, revenge for, however you want to frame it] the hook nerfs and perk buffs will be long-lived, just as all other threats to engage in those activities have not resulted in serious changes to peoples' playstyles over the long term.
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Just because your preferred side didn't get a greater number of equal-attention buffs to match the buffs that bring a handful of perks from C to B tier does not mean the devs are discriminating against you. Most of the buffs on survivor side apply to perks with the same underlying activation mechanic, this is clearly them doing a pass on time-based perk activation and a much needed one at that.
And I mean like come on, 3 killers got buffed, not 2. How are you gonna complain about the imbalance in attention each side gets and then be incorrect about how much attention each side is getting?
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@Jim_Tonic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3768911#Comment_3768911
this is the issiue im talking about right there. Either we say both is "op" when killers and survivors can communicate in a team or neither is. Dont nitpick what suits just at the moment.
Well, what I said was that killers communicating is Not OP and it's just the mere presence of two killers that deletes the funnest part of the game (thanks for reading my post thoroughly)
so I guess by that metric thank you for proving that SWF is completely fair
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Me when my side [good :))))))] but also the other side [bad :((((((((]
The one complaint I've seen about 2 killers is that even without coordination they can just eliminate the "chase" part of the game. Comparison to SWF is entirely inaccurate.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3768871#Comment_3768871
I don't find 2v8 survivor fun for a few reasons. If the killers split up and chase separately, then you're essentially just playing normal DbD except without any of the perks you want. At which point, I'd rather just play the normal mode. And if the killers group up and chase together, it's just not very fun. There's not a whole lot you can do.
Yeah but that actually makes it sound reasonable, you gotta rephrase it to make it as us-vs-them as possible.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3767686#Comment_3767686
me and my friend were playing killer. trapper and huntress. we decided that our killer are super immobile and that setting people to cage was bad. Cages cannot be camped, the survivor teleport. you cannot prevent survivor from unhooking. you have 0 information where cage is. It is survivor sided mechanic.
Instead we decided that we down people in corner of the map and slug them till bleed out. eventually survivor would need pick-up their teammate so we would slug these people in 1 corner for anyone trying rescue. If more than 4 people are in the corner, we would cage because of our separate attack cooldown would exceed our ability to keep people on the floor. As a result, any excessive survivor past 4 we would cage.
Trapper is design to be camping killer. he is meant to camp 3 gens and basement hooks. the problem is…. there is no basement hooks or 3 gens to camp. there is only 5 gens to camp and these survivor sided cages. As a result, the only thing that trapper can camp is slugs. Trapper is very immobile. these maps are giant. the setup for him takes forever and loops are everywhere. it is bully simulator for trapper chase people. No chance trapper is getting 24 hooks.
Huntress is also immobile in this mode. a slow killer on giant map. wow. that's surely going to go well. Camp 5 gens and slugging people is main way to stall. It gets people off generators and allow killer to properly camp hooks(slugs).
I really like this new 2vs8 system. I like how slugging is correct form of camping and that "hooking" is more like aggressive "Nurse" aggressive approach to winning. they should have this kind of system in default 1vs4 where hooking uses cage system and slugging is "camping" play-style to win.
Just because something exists doesn't mean it was intended.
If there is bleed out timer, your clearly intended to kill people with it.
"Guys why is killer queue for 2v8 mode so long"
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3768057#Comment_3768057
I don't think that's a logical conclusion to make.
If anything, it'd be the other way around.
That's the joke. I was making a joke about how many people, in the run-up to the game mode's release, were saying that it looked incredibly survivor sided, and nobody was going to play killer. which at the time I thought was a ridiculous prediction and have since been proven right in my assessment
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It's because the new game mode is incredibly survivor sided, which is why nobody is playing survivor.
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3766475#Comment_3766475
Actually, this forum is the more civil parts of the online DBD comunity ^_- Reddit is basically fully survivor sided, and the Steam Forums is an utter cesspit of toxicity.
Reddit is not survivor sided. It's less killer sided than here but it still favors killers. Twitter and TikTok, on the other hand, good lord.
I sorted by "most popular, last week" and the second-top post was a near carbon-copy repeat of a one-sided "don't you hate how all survivors are all toxic hypocrites" thread that was on here a couple weeks ago.
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@YamamuraVideoRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3765121#Comment_3765121
Do literally have to point out everything plain as day to you people?
"Slowdowns" in Patch 6.1:
- Generators take 90 seconds for a single survivor to repair (was 80 seconds)
- Killers kicking a generator now immediately cause a 2.5% loss of progress in addition to starting regression
- Time to kick a generator has been reduced to 1.8 seconds (was 2 seconds)
- Eruption Buff: Increased Generator reduction when a Survivor enters the dying state to 10% (was 6%)
- Eruption buff: Increased duration of Incapacitated status effect to 15/20/25 seconds (was 12/14/16 seconds)
- jolt: removed cooldown
Regression nerfs:
- Corrupt Intervention deactivates when any Survivor enters the dying state.
- Ruin nerf: Added: Once any Survivor is killed by any means, the Hex: Ruin Totem reverts to a Dull Totem.
- Tinkerer: This effect can only be triggered once on each generator.
- Pop Goes the Weasel: Changed regression to be 20% of current progress (was 25% of total)
- Patch 6.6: eruption nerf.
- Patch 6.1.2: Thanatophobia: drastically reduced the Penalty percentages from 4/4.5/5 % to 1/1.5/2 %.
- Pain Resonance: removed the Loud Noise Notification and no longer explodes the Generator, allowing repairing Survivors to continue uninterrupted.
To be fair, pain resonance has gone through many changes but since it's inception and up until now the net change has been: increase to regression percentage, no longer showing the killer your location, and a token system where it can only happen once per survivor. It is much weaker now than when it was first released.
…
Also, why would people open their task manager and close the game before they have seen any offerings, or even know if there are offerings at all? My whole suggestion was to make offerings completely hidden until the match actually starts. Seriously, I guess you people just don't read???
You're forgetting the Overcharge and Gift of Pain buffs and severely overselling some of the "nerfs" here
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3765052#Comment_3765052
Explain how it's a free hit, especially if it's not a PC player.
see survivor
press power button
close the distance + get a hit
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@Toystory3Monkey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3765333#Comment_3765333
extremely subjective statement.
i find xeno to be much more satisfying to play than any of those killers.
please dont try to pass your subjective judgement as an objective statement.
Part of the social contract of discussing things on the internet is that we all acknowledge things like "it feels [adjective]" are inherently subjective statements and that pointing that out is largely pointless.
Like, I disagree with their opinion, I think the power is satisfying to use and actually quite whelming indeed, but please don't engage in the petty unproductive nonsense of pointing out what we already know, that this kind of thing is subjective
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@YamamuraVideoRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3765094#Comment_3765094
It does not confirm what you claim.
it does, unless you'd like to show exactly where those patch notes show gen slowdown NERFS alongside a 10 second increase in gen times
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@YamamuraVideoRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3764644#Comment_3764644
No thanks, I'll just use sources that don't pull things from their asses.
https://deadbydaylight.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_Notes_6.1.X#Patch_6.1.0
hey man i'm super confused, the source you linked reinforces My point ("killers overall got buffs to regression in the same patch that gens got buffed to 90 seconds") and contradicts Yours ("gen times got increased by 10 seconds as compensation for slowdown nerfs"). did you post the wrong source by accident? super weird to accuse me of pulling things out of my ass while posting a source that confirms what I said
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Because they need someone for that subset of killer players who need a free hit every 10 seconds in order to have a chance, and knight just got nerfed, so they needed to buff someone
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@YamamuraVideoRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3764400#Comment_3764400
And yet, this is exactly what happened. What is inaccurate?
If we're going to be real here, going from 2.5% to 5% regression isn't really much. That's like 2 seconds difference and 4.5 seconds of repair time total. Slightly increased kick times also isn't anything: like 0.1 second. Nitpicking over the exact times when certain regression perks got nerfed doesn't help your case. Some things like Eruption and Thana got buffed. Then later when people incessantly complained about them, they got nerfed. Ever since that 10 second increase in generator time, the strongest and most popular regression perks were nerfed, then bhvr looked at their data and culled the next batch.
So far, on the 6.1 patch or after: Pop got nerfed. Pain resonance got nerfed. Thana got nerfed. Eruption got nerfed. Corrupt Intervention got nerfed. Tinkerer got nerfed. Ruin got nerfed. And yes, perks like gift of pain, overcharge, and jolt were considered very weak at the time. They weren't popular, nor effective perks for slowing down the game, so why are they being brought up?
I don't want to split hairs over the exact times of when X and Y perk and mechanic changed, but my overall point is, there were huge nerfs to the meta gen slowdown perks, and only 10 seconds were added to the generator times. To an efficient survivor team, this only really amounts to extending a match by about 20 seconds.
If you want to know what is inaccurate about your claims I invite you to reread the post you responded to, the information is all there.
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@YamamuraVideoRentals said:
Bugs aside, newly released content that is imbalanced aside…
DbD has glaring balance issues - the same ones for years on end. We've slowly come a long way since the game's first inception, like fixing hatch standoffs and infinite loops, but there is still much work to be done, and the game mechanics allow others to make the game extremely unfun and unfair for others. Just a quick list of issues (and there's probably more I'm forgetting):
- Generator speeds way too fast
- Camping and tunneling
- MMR
- Offering dodging
- Survivors hiding when they've clearly lost
- Killers slugging and bleeding everyone out
- Other QoL issues
Issue 1, 2, and 3 are all closely related imo.
#1 Generator speed is a common complaint from killers. As their MMR goes up and they start facing more skilled survivors, or at least, survivors who don't crouch in a corner the entire time wetting their pants, suddenly it feels like there's a million pallets and windows on the map, and organized teams will quickly finish 1-3 gens by time you down the first person. Slowdown perks were very popular for a reason, but many of them were gutted, and in compensation, the time to complete a generator was extended by a mere 10 seconds. Far too little, too late my friends. Because generators can be done so quickly, this causes many killers to resort to other less savory tactics in order to "apply pressure". See item 2.
#2 Camping and tunneling are even more common complaints from survivors. It's not fun being tunneled out of the game. It's not fair. The basekit borrowed time everyone gets hardly does anything, as most people from ages four and up know how to count to ten. The anti-camp mechanic we have currently is a terrible joke. Only people who are genuinely bad at playing killer will get this to trigger unintentionally. Many killers have some ability, be it a ranged attack, a form of teleportation or high mobility, or other zone control that makes proxy camping extremely easy. And even if a killer does not have any such power, all they have to do is stay a certain distance from the hook (which isn't much).
We have been told that "camping and tunneling are valid strategies" for years, but this is bullcrap. I interpret this as meaning they are not bannable offenses (which would be insane) but nonetheless these practices are not healthy for the game. It's up to the devs to change the overall feel and mechanics of their game so that these strategies are not so easy and rewarding. Below, after discussing MMR a bit, I have some solutions to these issues.
#3 MMR has always been controversial since its release, and frankly, it isn't implemented very well. In fact, it's been implemented very lazily. Looking ONLY at kills and escapes provides the least information, and can be wildly inaccurate. The old ranking system we had was somewhat more ideal, but even building from that, the emblem system we currently have is great for keeping track of all the things a player has done during the match. Killers get points for preventing the generators from being repaired, for chasing survivors and hitting them, for hooking and killing survivors, and for skillful use of their power. Survivors get points for repairing generators, running from the killer and avoiding being hit, unhooking and healing other survivors, and simply surviving as long as possible, or escaping.
These were pretty simple systems that kept track of all the things players have done in a match, and the overall kills and escapes can certainly weigh in heavily to determine an overall team performance. When we look at MMR, ideally a team of survivors vs a killer of equal MMR should expect to see around 8-10 hooks, or 2 kills. When adjusting MMR, look at the overall team scores, look at each player's contribution and performance, and decide if their MMR goes up, down or stays the same. Research how chess ratings are calculated and do a system like that.
Finally, swinging back to issues 1 and 2, I propose this: Once MMR has been properly sorted out, we'll do the following to balance the game:
-Matches with high survivor MMR take longer to complete generators. Make the additional time up to a whopping +30 or +40 seconds at maximum. Sounds like a lot? It is. But a good team shouldn't have any issue doing this. Remember that even at maximum, this is not +200 seconds to a match. With three survivors each on a different generator, it would ideally be only +80 seconds.
-Matches with high survivor MMR take longer to open exit gates. At highest MMRs, up to +10 additional seconds maximum to open the gate. This should make getting everyone out challenging, and not a guaranteed open gate just because one person was ready at the switch right when the last generator was completed.
-Matches with high killer MMR take longer to sacrifice survivors. It can take up to +30 seconds maximum for a survivor to progress to the next hook stage. Therefore, if the killer is camping, this gives more opportunity for the joke self-unhook timer to fill up more, and more time for the other team to reset, reposition, or even just do gens.
-Matches with high killer MMR have slightly more windows and pallets. This will make the killer's job harder, just as the survivors' objectives have been made harder.
-Matches with high killer MMR grant survivors longer haste and endurance times when unhooked. Up to +20 seconds maximum just based off of MMR alone, which should be plenty of time to get to another loop or tile.
-Matches with high killer MMR have increased anti-camp system ranges. Up to +12 meters at higher MMRs. But of course, other survivors in this increased range also foil the system and will prevent the bar from going up.
Final anti-camp and anti-tunnel adjustments: When a survivor is on hook, or unhooked, the server checks how many hook states that survivor has compared to other survivors. Example: Dwight has been hooked for the first time, and Meg, Jake, and Claudette haven't been hooked at all. Dwight has one hook state, the others have zero. That's a difference of one hook state compared to each survivor, and therefore, three total. While Dwight is hooked, the anti-camp system actually has a +30% additional range, and the bar fills up +30% faster. When Dwight is unhooked, his endurance and haste effects will last +30% longer, and the haste effect is +30% stronger.
Then, let's say Meg is hooked next. Dwight has 1 hook state, Meg has 1 hook state, the others have zero. So she'll get those same bonuses, but only at +20%. Then, let's suppose Dwight is hooked again. He now has 2 hook states, which is 1 more than Meg, and 2 more than Jake and Claudette. This will therefore further increase the effects of the anti-camp and anti-tunnel system by +50%.
Other changes: The anti-camp system still works during end game. If a survivor is hooked in the basement, the entrance of the basement is used to determine "camping distance" if it is closer.Lastly: because I also know such tools are used "offensively", the endurance effect granted from unhooking shall be negated if that survivor were to take a protection hit (grace period 5 seconds from being unhooked).
#4 Offering dodging. We have all probably seen this done by streamers, or done it, or at least had many of our own games prematurely end before they even began. I don't think there's any proper way to prevent this, other than keeping all offerings hidden. Let them be revealed after the game map loads (check offerings and perks with ESC), and people who choose to disconnect after the fact will receive proper punishment, as they should.
#5 Survivors hiding/AFK. There have been many topics about this already. When the game is just about over and the survivors have clearly lost, sometimes they all tend to be "rats" and continually hide and stall the game. At this point, they aren't even trying to complete objectives. They're just hiding, doing nothing, hoping the other person gets caught first. Well, we need crows. The current system won't give survivors crows who are continually moving around but doing nothing, nor will it give survivors crows who hop from one locker to the next. Simply put, what we need is a system that keeps track of what the survivors have accomplished recently. In two minutes, they will need to either heal another survivor, cleanse a totem, open a chest, open a gate, repair 20% of a generator, or interact with a select few number of killer items.. or start getting crows.
#6 The 4k slug and bleedout is just toxic and wastes everyone's time. Give survivors the ability to pick themselves up. Or give survivors a surrender option. Or do that thing you had years ago where the match just ends and everyone gets morid. I don't care what you do, just don't make everyone wait 4 minutes for the most boring and anti-climactic end of what I'm sure was a very "fun" match.
#7 Various Quality of Life issues:
- skill checks: Ever notice how like 80% of the time you're about to leave a generator, then a skill check decides to happen and blows it up? This has got to stop. Seriously.
- Hit boxes: Be it wonky ranged attack hit boxes, killers being fat shamed, invisible sky boxes, getting slowed down and caught on literally nothing, and really strange collisions, all our game maps need to be polished to the point where this never happens and isn't a source of immersion breaking and frustration.
- Totem locations: It really isn't good when totems are right next to generators in plain view, you know that? There is supposed to be a risk/reward to totem perks, but the reason most people either don't bother with them, or feel they must also run Undying is because often times totems are way too obvious and found too early in the games. At the very least, they should not be in plain view of generators, not completely out in the open next to a rock, and survivors should not spawn right next to them.
- Chests and killer item locations: This is one of those situations where again, I feel the coding was either very lazy or very poorly thought out. Killers like Onryo and Xenomorph in particular need their items in the best strategic places. Regardless, the placement of chests should not be prioritized over other objects that are far more impactful to the game.
- Colorblind settings: The game has been out for 8 years now, and all we have are some filters that don't actually do anything to help. Scratch marks and auras are the very big issues here. Give us a system in the menus to customize what color the scratch marks are, and also to customize the aura colors of various perks. This will be very helpful in the case that there is overlap.
I mean, you say "most regression was gutted and the only compensation was a mere 10 seconds of gen time"
But the 10 seconds of gen time was added in the same update that killers got basekit burst regression on kicks, faster kicks, and buffed Eruption, Jolt, Gift of Pain, Overcharge, and Thana.
It's only subsequent to those changes that regression has been nerfed. Certainly makes it feel like the regression nerfs were in reaction to realizing the increase in gen times alongside the buffs that happened at that same time were too much.
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IMO since pallets can range from worse than useless to must-break, simply looking at the number of pallets is a poor indicator of balance. It matters how good they are
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For me it's the exact opposite. I bring a tricked out toolbox into every game and immediately drop and re-pick it. If I get that little red icon it's immediate sweat mode, no mercy. Bang out a gen with my toolbox, drop it in the corner, do everything I can to end the game immediately. Same goes if the killer clearly has 3-4 gen perks. If it's not one of those two scenarios I'll play chill, do bones, maybe use my toolbox to farm hook sabo BP, etc. Fortunately my teammates seem to get the message and do the same thing.
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@SweetbutaPsycho said:
I mean I get that a lot of people will just dodge. On the other hand I find it pretty lame to make a build with Hex: Plaything, Trails of Torment, Insidous etc. and get 0 value out of it cause people just constantly call out where I am. Tried this build for like 8 games and in 3 it was literary useless cause ppl were SWF. That also shouldnt happen tbh, that a whole category of build just instantly becomes useless with no way to tell upfront
That's a fair complaint, but also I've lost track of the times I brought a healing build only to be faced with a Plague. That's the risk of bringing in a particular type of build, you may be countered.
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@Tsunderechan said:
Survivor queues are long cause theres not enough killers to match against survivors after survivors collectively bullied out the killer playerbase over the course of past few years through scores of stacked BNPs, OOO SWFs, old DS/DH, Buckle Up/FTP, Old CoH, MFT (do i need to go on?) and most importantly: needlessly teabagging after using said combos.
With most gen regression perks getting nerfed to the ground cause the survivors refuse to adapt. Getting rid of their items is one of the few things killers still got aside from focused tunneling. If that lowers your morale, know that thats how killers felt these past few years.I had queue bonus on killer and my survivor queue was still faster
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if bots are being loaded in from the start i totally believe your theory why they're doing that. i had 100% bonus on killer and i'm pretty sure it was still a longer wait than when there's no bonus and I queue survivor. people just don't want to play survivor anymore man
if they're not loading in from the start, that means someone disconnected as the game started, in which case I would MUCH rather them just cancel the match. even if load times are long, I would much rather wait a little longer instead of having to play with a bot from the start.
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Definitely some good points made here.
One thing I would note is that (possibly) having multiple bad results in a row might lead to tilting, thus causing the player to be more likely than average in subsequent games. Thus, lose streaks wouldn't be strictly a binomial distribution and the probabilities may be even more weighted than we think they are - especially since it's much easier to get that tilting loss streak going with a higher kill rate.
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@KaTo1337 said:
Killer is easy? Well… you need to play 2v8 then. You will probably lose 5 generators for 1 hook, so have fun in the challenge of catching up the gen speed without any gen-perks.
I have an excellent strategy to prevent losing 5 gens to get 1 hook in 2v8. Great strategy I just came up with all on my own
45 seconds · Clipped by Nicola Nezumi Ch. · Original video "family guy - tom tucker chase" by Alex The Lightning Hedgehog -
@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3762020#Comment_3762020
i believe the game is balanced around the killer having the upper hand but the survivors attempting to upset the killer. in other words, the smallest misplay from killer leads 2 kills which in my opinion is a loss. the game should be balanced around survivors upsetting the killer. Not dominating the killer with 4 man escapes. how much should killer need to misplay for that to happen is debatable.
Well I know that a 2k means the killer accomplished 50% of their objective and the survivor team accomplished 50% of theirs, I know DBD considers a 2k a draw for MMR purposes, and the main successful DBD competitor explicitly calls a 2k a draw in the end screen. So, feel free to keep believing whatever you want about the balance of the game, just understand it is in defiance of both basic math, and standards set by developers across the Asym Horror genre
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3762012#Comment_3762012
not wins are losses. 2 kills is a win for survivor. it breaks the killers win-streak.
Losses are not wins, but "not wins" are not necessarily losses.
2 kills is not a win for survivor, it's a draw.
It breaks the streak because it's a win streak, not a win or draw streak.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3758552#Comment_3758552
the middle is 3 losses for killer. killer are not overpowered. soloq plays poorly vs said killers and it amounts to large losses from poor play. SWF wins more then enough and has no issue defeat any killer. As a result, if there is no issue defeating the killer, the killer role is not overpowered. the player needs to play better to earn a stronger win record vs x killer.
Draws 👏 are 👏 not 👏 losses 👏
And if they were the middle one would be 5 losses for the survivor side so your point would be moot anyway
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Been seeing a lot of weird stuff on the forums today. Now I'm seeing people whove previously complained that survivors force killers to stay in the match 2 extra minutes by teabagging at the exit gate, and who therefore should understand the misery of having absolutely no recourse to shorten an already lost match; arguing against implementing mechanics that would provide recourse to shorten an already lost match. Bewildered as to what could cause this change of heart.
In any case, I think any recourse to shorten a truly lost game - not just "oh no one gen popped" or "oh no I got found first" but one where the outcome for everyone is actually set in stone - is good