mizark3
mizark3
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This would only be fine if soloq Survivors could 'shop' for Killers. Nurse, naw bro I'll take the next in queue.
@Zaydin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3534188#Comment_3534188
And therein is the rub: No sane killer would without massive BP incentives because playing against a full four man SWF isn't fun. I don't expect to get 4ks every match but matched against SWFs are never fun for me. It's always fun getting destroyed by survivors who have a massive advantage you have no counter for and then getting trash talked in the post game chat when they only won due to having an uncounterable advantage.
SWFs force killers to play sweaty.
SWF is 90% friends goofing off, 9% skilled but not sweating and less than 1% clock callout super sweats.
I can tell when I'm going against a SWF when people are staying to the end of a match despite dying relatively early (hit escape and check ping, no ping and they are gone). They are no more skilled than the soloq players who don't stay.
I've never felt the need to 'play sweaty' merely because they were a SWF. I have felt that need when they genb4fren, which only happens with that 1% mentioned above. It also happens in soloq when people don't care about their teammates instead. Most SWFs would much rather the 4 man escape, so they do their best (and fail) to protect their friend who sucks at the game.
Part of this is also negativity bias without proof. How do you know when the losses were because of SWF, and the victories were because of soloq? Did you check when you won that they weren't friended on steam? That was a SWF you beat, but if you didn't check, then you wouldn't truly know. It seems like SWF is the boogeyman to blame for all your losses, rather than the true cause (whatever that may be, outmapped/outperked/bad early game/etc.).
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@solidhex said:
Yea i kinda miss old Dbd but this could also be part nostalgia. I always found ways to play around old meta stuff back then and both sides felt more fun to me. I could play solo without getting mad every time. Killer was more of a challenge, sometimes unfair, but it was more exciting somehow. It feels kinda stale right now which is why i only play 1-2 times per week nowadays. I also think the old looks and animations had way more character, much darker and more horror, now the games looks more casual (some newer killers look like they're from Apex and some of the newer maps too, no horror feeling to it). The new map looks cool though.
It also feels to me like this game is putting out too much content, i can't really keep up anymore as there is just so many perks that i don't even know what they're doing. There are some killers that i have maybe played against like 5 times (Singularity) and that i have never played myself. Some killers where i don't know what their add-ons are doing. The game doesn't really need more characters and perks at this point, but i guess this is how the gaming industry in 2023 works and what all the kids expect, new content every 3 months...
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3534460#Comment_3534460
Thana is this kind of perk you just can't make too good because it would be crushing and demotivating. The preconditions are very easy to meet for some killers and then having constantly 15-20% less gen speed would be too OP, especially since solos can't counter it as good as SWFs. The smarter killers also know that the survs will reset somewhere because they have to, which gives them another option to pressure (with Nurses Calling for example).
Same goes for Deadlock or Made for This, these perks are just very cheap by design and that's why they're regarded as strong and are getting used so much. Easy or no preconditions, relatively strong effect.
I think Pop or Pain Res are perks that are generally designed in a good way, they give you reward for achievements, numbers have to be properly balanced of course.
That's why I would at least recommend a nerfed 4.5% instead of the butchered version we have now. I would view that 4.5% value with 90s gens to be as fair as Pop and Pain Res.
With the old 5% and 80s gens, the timers were 80/~84/~89/~94/100. (0/1/2/3/4 injured)
With the 6.1.0 patch 5.5% and 90s gens, the timers were 90/~95/~101/~108/~115.
With the proposed 4.5% and 90s gens, the timers would be 90/~94/~99/~104/110. This more closely follows the old pattern of +10s at each injury level that the basekit gen change was meant to effect. (80/90 84/94 89/99 94/104 100/110) This way Thana is only a problem if it was prior to 6.1, and I would argue it problem wasn't back then, especially if they were planning on buffing it.
I've always been a fan of Thana, because of the free hits it gives you when Survs try to greed a 90%+ gen. I can't tell you how many times prior to 6.1 that I got a down because of Thana exclusively, then got to Pop it from the free hook they gave me. Right now the only possible users I've found for Thana to be Legion, Plague, and Myers.
(Non-Tombstone) Myers can use current Thana only because it works on 2 fronts. The first front is everyone stays injured against Myers since you can just pop T3 whenever, so this forces the slowdown on whether they heal or not. Secondly it pairs well with the Plaything/Pentimento combo, as when you fully stack Thana with Penti, you get 50% gen slowdown, with 180s gens due to how the stacking works. Yes, it only leaves you with 1 more perk to work with, but it is the best build I've found for Myers thus far that doesn't use Tombstones. It does require hooking the first person you find to start the ball rolling ASAP though, instead of stalking a bunch of people a little or hitting and running. Its difficult but fun when you learn to make it work for you. There is a learning curve though, I lost about 3-5 matches before falling into a groove and won ~10 in a row (across multiple days).
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For the most part, I think the basekit changes were largely good, with the only questionable decision being not increasing hook timers to 65s when increasing gen timers to 90s. If they are working on the anti-facecamping countermeasures then this is being addressed... eventually. The only strictly bad basekit change was anti-tunnel Endurance not working with Deep Wound. If they wanted Endurance to shoulder all the burdens of anti-tunnel, then both BT and OTR needed to proc and defend someone from going down, but its fair to disallow Styptic/DH. Just because content creators made meme videos showing 11 Endurance hits at the exit gate doesn't mean that was possible in real matches, and this was the wrong message received by the Devs. OTR already is disabled in endgame, and that's all it needed. I'd even go so far as to make Endurance not Deep Wound, and a hit only takes 10s off of the timer. This would help make OTR more unpredictable in terms of how long it works, and a Nurse turbo-tunneling needs like 6 consecutive hits for a down. Wait out a Conspicuous Action if you want to tunnel the Survivor so badly.
The perk changes were everything that was wrong, with some of the most ludicrous choices I've ever seen. Best I can tell, they looked at the what while ignoring the why. What is the reason these perks are picked? Because 80% of perks are trash first off, and 15% are for niche circumstances. Then, even when it is a perk only good in niche circumstances (Calm Spirit), it isn't even proportionately stronger in dealing with that niche, so you might as well bring the generalist perks.
All of the meta perks that were nerfed arguably could have been single-nerfed, but instead were double nerfed. DS went 5s -> 3s, and lost endgame usage. In double nerfing it, they effectively deleted the perk. Pop went from 25% max -> 20% current, and now has been buffed to 30% current, so it is stronger than old Pop as long as the 4th piston is active. They managed to nerf CALM SPIRIT, like who thought that was a good idea?!?!? Heck, with the medkit changes as well, Pharmacy is now worse than Self-Care. It takes ~10s to open, with 24s to med-kit heal, so you better find a chest in less than 12s.
The worst offender to me was the nerf to Thana. They buffed Thana to 5.5% per Surv while also increasing gen times to 90s, this was obviously a bad idea, so they immediately nerfed that. How might you ask? By gutting the perk. They wouldn't revert the nerf so its back to 5% per like how it would still be buffed. It will now give 2% per Surv with a 12% boost only at 4. This makes it so as long as 1 Survivor is healthy, it is nearly a dead perk. This also encourages the current MfT Resilience overuse we are dealing with and people staying injured. If 5% or even 4.5% Thana was still in the game, I highly doubt MfT Resil would be nearly the same complaint factor.
Now there is an additional theory of mine that could explain our current scenario of Killer complaints. 6.1.0 needlessly buffed unearned regression. It was so bad, that a monkey with a spacebar could win with OC/CoB/Eruption. This means a lot of Killers were getting kills they didn't earn, and ascending their MMR to heights they can't compete in. Now that MfT comes out, the Killers that abused that 'monkey spacebar combo' can't compete against normal Survivors of their MMR, and the edge MfT gives now makes this large divide in skill colossal instead. They don't like losing, but refuse to lose enough to correct their MMR, so they play 1 bad match, call it quits, complain, and never reset to their proper 'rank'. I recognized OC/CoB/Eruption was a problem, refused to crutch on it, and I don't have that much difficulty against MfT, so that has to be the reason.
Edit: I think the fairest patch was either immediately prior to Mikeala's release (because her patch that deleted the hatch mechanic), or immediately after her patch while CoH was killswitched. Overall though there are a lot of problems 'fixed' by 6.1.0, with equally as many problems created by it. I'd have to say pre 6.1.0 was better solely for the soloq experience with less tunneling of yourself or a teammate.
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I'd be fine with this if boon were an instant tap on a totem. The problem is the current boons are very well balanced for the timesink they require. For example the arguable best perk, Circle of Healing. It gives auras of the injured, and 100% altruistic heal speed. This means you get an 8s heal instead of a 16, and a 10s heal instead of 20s. This also requires the injured person and a medic to both run to the boon instead of stay where they were and heal. The time lost in attempting to get the benefits of this perk is almost always more than the time saved. Even if theoretically you had 2 perfect on the spot heals, that only saved you a net of 2s.
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The tail attack windup is shorter than any attack in the game other than a tapped M1, this means starting off you will likely start the attack too early (from other attack muscle memory). On top of that, the tail attack can be heard when you hit an object, which means you lose all remaining time on the hitbox(es). It largely looks the same, hit or miss, so you have to listen for the difference, which can be hard in the heat of the moment.
The Killer is designed around being able to reaction M2 everything as a result of the tiny windup. If you reaction M2 you can hit singular turrets without being burnt out of power, and you can reaction M2 Resilience Fast Vaults. It almost would be worth bringing STBFL to get you into the mindset of being willing to M1 even when in Crawler mode, as you only need to M2 at vaults/pallets. If you only M2 when you need to, you can even build Bloodlust while still having access to the nutty M2.
The issue with turret 'invulnerability' is that they malfunction everytime you exit a tunnel for a short timeframe, extended by the yellow Light Wand(?) add-on. While the turret is malfunctioning, they cannot be damaged. If they are sparking post-tunnel, wait for the flame and take your choice of M1 or M2, but I'd say M2ing turrets is more reliable personally. Also don't be afraid to tank the flame if you would get an M1 before the pallet/window. You can scuttle right back to the tunnel and pop back out the same, or a different tunnel, with no repercussions.
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The map is almost balanced around stealth moreso than chase. Kind of like a lot of indoor maps. Since there is so much clutter, there is all the more hiding spots. You can walk from TR and instead of having 2 options tops, you have 5+. They have a bunch of loops where it just seems off, like the pseudo 4-lane with the L shape blocking the middle on one side, and the pallet and window being on the same side of the loop on another. The back gen (in the shipwreck/main) feels like a deathtrap, but if the Killer doesn't think to check it, then it might as well be a free gen.
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An important thing to keep in mind is Bloodlust. It only takes a mere 15s to get T1, which is an additive .2m/s (up to 4.8 from 4.6, or 4.6 from 4.4), and T2 and 3 are an additional additive .2 each at 25s total and 35s total. More Killers are realizing that you 'need' to Bloodlust against MfT. Then they realize the strength of Bloodlust in and of itself, and start to use it against everyone. Most times you reach Bloodlust 1 by reaching a pallet and looping it once or twice, so it hardly is something Killers need to go out of their way for.
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It's kinda nutty on Clown when combined with STBFL. You basically have 3 extra STBFL stacks at all times, and since bottles reset Bloodlust, you never can get hit by the drawback. It similarly works on other killers that M1 but they can't have bad cases where they need Bloodlust.
Doctor is one of the victims who it may sound good on paper, but some loops are simply not hittable with power on. On bad loops or in certain scenarios against MfT, there is no way to get a hit without Bloodlust as Doc. I'd argue Dredge also it wouldn't be good on, because Dredge builds Bloodlust as long as you don't TP to your remnant. You should only TP when the remnant would get you a hit, so it probably hurts to bring Rapid Brutality in those bad Bloodlust required scenarios.
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@KaTo1337 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/390274/tunneling-needs-to-be-adressed
If you look at the killrates on nightlight compared to the 60% average the devs wanted I can see why this happens more and more.
In the current survivor-meta tunneling is more necessary than ever.
I mean Nightlight is the Mos Eisley of sweatlords. Even then, how can you trust self-reports? All too many times there is the "about to go fight, I'll post the vid afterward -- got smashed, I ain't postin' that" mentality.
There is nothing in the current Survivor meta that makes it more necessary. There is plenty of reasons why it is pathetically easy. Anti-tunnel Endurance doesn't stack, DS may as well not exist, Killers have so much mobility they can pick their targets easier, and so on. Tunneling exists in excess right now, because anti-tunneling is absent.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3533903#Comment_3533903
Sure. I agree. I just don't like "bandaid" as a permanent solution.
It would without a doubt be survivor buff (that makes the game healthier, but it's still survivor buff) - so killer buff is absolutely in order. But base-mechanics buff vs perk buff does not sound good. Especially if it makes said perk (in this case pain res) too strong - making it virtually basekit on every killer. The better thing would always be basekit buff to killers (and if this was actually implemented, I think good idea of compensation buff would be to double killer's basekit kick regression to 5% instead).
I mean again, you don't have to redo the gens as Survivor unless the Killer is bunkering, so it wouldn't make PR too powerful except against the foolish, but they were going to die anyway. This is a buff to Killer in the sense that foolish Survivors will attempt the slowed gens against non-bunker Killers. The speed is so slow that Killer isn't penalized for re-genning except when bunkering.
As far as the basekit kick buff I would be fine with that if it were a pop-styled post hook buff, to encourage actually furthering the game, and not simply slugging or buffing bunkering further.
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@Grigerbest said:
Guys, I think we allowed to have more strong killers in the game, don't you think?
I don't get some complains about "Turrets being useless", or "Xeno have no counterplay", or "Xeno have no skill to play".
I play this killer regularly, and I can personally say, that placing turrets ALWAYS affect the outcome of the match. If survivors being lazy about turrets there is a fair higher chance of losing the match badly.
Turrets should not have a 100% chance of kicking Xeno out of power, it's all up to Xeno reaction and decision (hit a turret or survivor), also up to survivor's good placements (hiding in the bushes or tall grass).
But even without using turrets, there is a fair chance of wiffing the tail attack, if survivor just simply pushing left\right (juking), or playing against the same way they play against huntress or Nemi.
Using tail attack is not THAT easy, let me tell you, it takes with practice and understanding of it's mechanic, but not to the point of "Xeno takes no skill".
I do agree that missing tail attack should be a little more punishing, but thats about it.
Like, how is Xeno have no counterplay?
Guys right before Xeno we've had a Singularity, you do understand that if Developers buff turrets, we would end up in a "Singularity 2.0". I personally don't want this to happen, and more so, I don't want another "B-tier, survivor sided" killer. Nor a 3-gen killer.
Come on guys, Xeno is not an S-tier.
Xeno is close to Wesker in my opinion, we didn't have a proper optimal killer who can compete in the current DBD from Wesker release. Aside from very unfun 3-gening Sm and Knight.
Xeno strong, but not OP, it's actually up to you.
It isn't the raw strength of Xeno, its the lack of counterplay when you aren't facing a Baby Xeno. Would you consider a Nurse who consistently fails to blink inside Shack anything other than a Baby Nurse? It is the same issue with Xenos and turrets. When people say "X Killer needs skill", they often are more accurately saying "it takes longer to learn how to ride this bike". Once you learn to ride the bike of Xeno, it is unenjoyably oppressive on the Survivor sided gameplay, and it doesn't take that long to get there either. Singularity is a Killer that actually "needs skill" compared to all the other Killers, and by that I mean it takes a lot more time and effort to learn to use it to its full effectiveness. Xeno/Nurse/Blight are jokes to learn compared to Singularity, that's why people don't play it.
I've done the math in other posts, but the add-onless Xeno has to be 50% slower than the average human to fail at reaction M2ing a turret. Xeno also can reaction M2 Resilience Fast Vaults. Finally Xeno can respect the pallet and only M2 if they drop. This allows you to either get the hit around the loop if they don't drop, or build Bloodlust and get the hit 5-10s later. This is assuming the Xeno knows the mechanics. Tail whip go forwards and break turret, I need to be this close to tail whip. Xenos that don't know the mechanics are essentially the main ones to lose/miss/get burnt out. Again, only baby Xenos. Alternatively the Xeno gets burnt out because they know they'll get a free M1, and can then break the turret, crawl for 3-5s in the tunnels and emerge again at the same or a different gen if they need crawler mode to begin with.
If you are mid turret grab and the Xeno emerges, free hit. If you are carrying the turret to set it up and are less than 10 meters from the tunnel, free hit. You have to spend 2s dropping the turret, so you can't run, and you can only run 2.6m/s while carrying the turret. Finally, you have to spend forever finding a pixel that allows you to place the turret on many if not most maps. The placement rules are too restrictive.
So yes, Xeno isn't OP, its just no fun to go against. You are hoping the draining sands of your life trickle slower than the pumping of the gens. When your team goofs off in the slightest against a Xeno with their head on straight, you suffer.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3533694#Comment_3533694
The idea is sound. The only thing that sounds bad is specific killer perk buff to compensate. You shouldn't compensate base mechanic by perk because a, it means all killers need to use that perk now (which reduces variability) b, you didn't compensate part of killers.
In this case base-mechanic that would be an actual good compensation could be something like longer generator repair time (I don't specifically like this one as holding M1 on gens is already boring, but it's the easiest example of base-game mechanics to compensate for all killers).
Omitting this little oversight, I like the idea.
I mean Killers can run 4 lethality and run down people before they can pop all the gens fast enough even on M1 Killers like Legion. The classic Enduring Spirit Fury wombo combo comes to mind.
Nothing about this suggestion requires slowdown perks, I was just showing how slowdown is augmented if the Killer stops camping their bunker and allows Survivors to pump the bunker gens. Even the basekit 2.5% 2.25s kick would be effectively buffed to 9s of Survivor slowdown, and 4.5s if it is the 50% gen. Basekit regression is also proportionately powerful, and would make the 25% gen regress at the same speed a single Survivor can pump it. The game progresses gens worked by Survivors at 1 charge a second, and regresses at .25 charges a second, and this would reduce the Survivor sided anti-bunker gen to .25 charges a second (or .5 charges a second if the 50% gen).
I would argue in many matches this would be a buff to Killer, because people might attempt to power through a 25% re-gen when there is a normal gen undefended and the Killer isn't even bunkering up. Overall the idea behind the change was to punish bunker gameplay by having an escape other than bleedout/giveup on hook. At the same time, it is meant to be punishing enough to not be reasonably used by people trying to win against a normal Killer (unless they wanted to 'go easy' on them). A Survivor shouldn't attempt to complete the re-gen and should complete the normal gen instead.
I did notice a flaw however in this being brought up. Great Skill Checks would need to also be proportionately reduced in strength, or removed altogether on these gens. Currently no matter what gen speed buffs and debuffs you have, Greats still do 1% or .9s (or more with Hyperfocus). Luckily because of Hyperfocus, we know they do have the code to adjust Great values as well.
The current anti-3gen 'fix' is Deja Vu, so a perk is yet again called upon to fix a core design flaw, but it also has problems. Nothing stops you from using the 6% against every gen in the match, so it can be a buff against people not even bunkering. The boring Deja Vu 'fix' I recommended was a buff to gen times based on how long the current 3 gen has been the same 3 gen. For example 3% per minute. So if a 3-gen was camped from the onset for 25 minutes, you could have a 75% gen speed buff. That also wasn't without its problems though.
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The suggestion I've made before is after 3 gens pop / 2 gens remain, the first gen in the match to pop can be 're-completed', but only at 25% speed. That means it would take 360 Survivor gen seconds to re-complete, and percent regression is still just as effective. This happens again with the 4 gens pop / 1 gen remains, and now the 2nd gen to pop can be 're-completed' at 25%, and the 1st gen to pop is buffed to 50% speed (if it wasn't double popped). This way when you get a bad H map with a 4 1 2 gen split, you can still complete 5 gens, albeit with 3 at 90s, and 2 at 360s. If the Killer decided to actually defend all gens on the map, they could get a Pain Res to revert 90s of gen progress on those 25% speed 're-complete' gens. Simple paint visual below. Also note that for the bad drawing, re-completable means it was completed prior if that wasn't obvious.
Edit: This would be good for everyone other than baby lobbies. Low Skill Survivors will need a large notification (beyond just a red bar) that these re-complete gens are not good to do, maybe a visual debuff that says in large text 'old gen, -75%/50% gen speed'.
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After a particularly long Skull Merchant match I found the new win condition against her. She was doing the normal hostage merchant build and refused to leave a 3-gen from the onset of the match, so the only other living Survivor and I started tapping gens. At the end she said WE were boring at the end. I have never felt more accomplished in my DBD life. That was like a Blight saying "dang you are fast!", or a Nurse saying "good job phasing through walls!". The killer acknowledged we were better at what they were doing then they were. So now my goal is to legally hold the match hostage against hostage merchants.
The rules are if you don't touch gens for 10 minutes, and the Killer provides video proof, you can be banned for holding the match hostage. So simply tap a gen every 9 minutes and you are 100% legal! Watch a Youtube video on your 2nd screen or phone, and use the timer of the video to know when you should tap the next gen instead of whatever you were doing to prevent AFK crows. Let 2 of your soloq teammates out, and 2 of you take the bullet to legally hold her hostage back.
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To be fair this patch (and the game at large) is ultra buggy. We have the clown swap bottle bug, the gen trap ghost bug, I had a 5-10 minute loading screen before the game crashed, and more. With how often technical problems are for this game, you would think a DC penalty that is applied on crashes as well would be a bit more lenient.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3533245#Comment_3533245
The power can be "theoretically" taken away. In reality 1 addon makes it "impossible" (meaning you can loose it only if you choose to loose it).
Like this is the result of me playing the killer (and I don't blame them - the hits I got were pretty disgusting)
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/2OMDRLNM7U33/image.png
Notice I don't even use any turret addon to make it little bit more fair. Still... I don't blame them (2 were deadhook, 2 had 1 hook, no camp or tunnel, just Xeno play)
I mean to be fair, the Star Map is the best anti-turret add-on (only a tiny-fraction of a second better than the Green helmet). 8m Turret range means you only have to close 3.2m instead of 5.2, which shaves nearly half a second off of the reaction M2 timer. The Light-Wand also can be used to 'spawn kill' (break a turret the instant it stops tunnel malfunctioning) further turrets out of tunnels, but requires learning the timing.
Still though, Xeno is super oppressive in power, and unlike Plague/Oni, there isn't much anything to do in order to prevent Xeno from getting power back. Even if you perfectly place a turret and burn it out, it can hop back in the tunnels and jump on another gen across the map in less than 10s. If the Survivor immediately jumps back on the gen, the Xeno gets the footsteps to know not to crossmap instead. It's a lose-lose for Survivor.
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@Frumpbeard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3532884#Comment_3532884
The tail has travel time. It's around 0.7s from hitting the tail attack button to the Survivor getting injured. Nemesis is around 0.8s, or 0.4s if he's pre-charged his whip, which can can do when initiating it while coming around a corner, which Xeno cannot do without hitting the corner 4/5 times.
There is no travel time. .2s after the button is pressed, it spawns the full hitbox, and during the .4s you can 'drag' the hitbox, or more accurately it creates a new hitbox every .05s (not sure the specifics here, I saw 6-8 hitboxes in one of the tests, so that makes it likely every .05s) and checks for hits with each new hitbox. You can see that here in the sandbox test. There is no travel time, it might be you confusing the new hitbox spawn delay after you re-aim mid tail attack.
Hitting corners is probably just the player not being used to such a short delay on a Killer attack, and needing to unlearn the old muscle memory to learn Xeno's specific delay instead. It also could be like when you round a corner with a Huntress wind-up and hit the corner of the wall instead of the Survivor, so poor aim, but Huntress' hatchet is visible to see how you miss and can fix it. Xeno's miss sometimes is unclear what you are hitting.
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@UnavailableName said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3533064#Comment_3533064
There are 4 survivors, usually they all bring the perks listed above so you have to deal with multiple MFT/SB/DH etc... it is extremely frustrating.
I dunno, it feels like it is a chance to prove I'm skilled. Figuring out their perks and countering them accordingly. Don't let the BL user exit the loop towards the tall height, Bloodlust 1 the MfT user, cry against Sprint Burst, y'know the norm.
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Skilled Killers have learned how to abuse its weaknesses, and unskilled Killers are met with unskilled Survivors who don't know how to utilize the strengths.
That doesn't mean it isn't stupid, it just means since BHVR predominantly balances around stats, so you win as Killer while being tortured.
@Unfunny_Clown said:
After seeing what they did with coldwind maps i'm not a super fan of them touching another map,,i'm not saying they weren't obnoxious to play in as killer but the thing is they overdid it,,again massive deadzones and useless pallets as unsafe as the notorious hawkins map pallet on the outer corridors
This too, I don't trust the current map team. Half of Coldwind is nothing but the tiny tent and 2 crates filler pallets that is only good for killing Nemmy zombies, but even then it takes so long to lure them over I can't even say its good for that.
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@UnavailableName said:
No OP perks for killers but a ton that are really boring to play against :
- Pop
- POR
- Jolt
- Eruption
- Petimento
- Sloppy
Those perks are just boring, removing the progress you have made threw the trials is just an awful game design choice. Sloppy transforming healing into a pain in the ass.
Same for survivors, all the perks that increase artificially the chases duration are terrible design choices :
- DH
- MFT
- SB
- Lithe
In fact, everything impacting gen speed, healing speed, running speed is a result of trash game design.
Devs should have balanced the game around maps' layouts, number of pallets/windows, killers' power etc...
They should have never created perks that are changing the action/interactions speed at all. There is nothing more frustrating than repairing a gen to 90% to see it goes down back to 65% or to see that you need ages to heal one health state.
As a killer, there is nothing more frustrating than facing 20 pallets on a game or heavily survivor sided maps' layouts or being forced to deal with MFT/Lithe/Hope/SB.
I can understand the frustration, but at least one good drawback of the stronger Survivor perks is being gated behind Exhaustion. That means you can only bring 1 (or 2 in specific scenarios) at a time. At the same time a Killer can bring Pop/Eruption/PR all together. Now in a sense it does kind of balance itself, because the Killer's lack of intel and lethality will bite them mid match, but if 1 Survivor doesn't play against 4 slowdown correctly the map will be devoid of pallets and the Killer will win through attrition alone.
As Ghosty, no other Endurance perk makes me happier than MfT, because that means they can't have Sprint Burst instead, and stealth skips chase when done correctly (healthy or injured). That mutually exclusive nature makes Killer fun in a rock paper scissors kind of way.
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@Majin151 said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/TGBGSBYWDLIB/giphy-288-29.gif
Legit xeno is a killer that is a menace at low to lower mid mmr and can get shut down if you know what to do which imo puts them at high b low a
And all the survivors who say the turrets are basically useless admit that they don't know what to do against the xeno yet
TLDR: You have to be 50% slower at reaction times than the average human to fail at a reaction M2 against a turret. Only baby Xenos (even without add-ons) get burnt out of power from a single turret when they don't want to.
The turret takes 1.5s to burn Xeno out. If a Xeno is in the worst case scenario, running parallel to the turret (so you start at the max turret range and being burnt before you approach) with no add-ons that the Xeno didn't know where the turret was, lets check how long it takes. You first have to react and start moving in the direction of the turret, average audio response time is .17s, but we'll use visual since its slower at .25s. Then you need to close the distance to get within 4.8m, or tail whip range. The normal turret detection radius is 10m, so you need to run 5.2m and use the whip at some point during the approach (with the .4s lingering hitbox, this is quite forgiving). Xeno moves at 4.6, so 5.2/4.6 = ~1.13s. Add in the average visual reaction time of .25s and you get an average WORST CASE of 1.38s before the tail hits the turret. This means Xeno is designed to reaction M2 turrets unless you are more than 50% slower than the average human, and I'd argue gamers are faster than the average by a decent margin. Latency doesn't appear to apply as when I reviewed videos of Xenos breaking turrets, the heat bar doesn't fill after the turret is broke from the Xeno's attack on the Xeno's screen, but to be fair, it might be only low ping VODs I watched.
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The problem isn't the perk being OP, the problem is its best users being OP already, and this helps ramp them to 11. Just like the old Starstruck Nurse, Starstruck wasn't the problem, Nurse was.
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.2s tail windup with .25s average visual reaction time for a total .45s reaction Xeno tail against a Resilience ~.46s fast vault is currently impossible for the Survivor to dodge.
Demo Shred takes .66s for the minimum charge and 1s for the full charge, which is still possible to dodge even without the reaction timer going into the equation. That just means it is on the Xeno to fail, rather than the Survivor to dodge. If you are 'dodging' a Xeno tail at a vault, you were going against a baby Killer, you didn't outplay them, they outplayed themself.
The major difference with Demo/Nemmy is when they fail to hit against a pallet, they break the pallet also. Xeno can only fail to hit against a pallet if they throw the game.
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It helps and it doesn't. Most people who play games don't engage online with the community. There is a very large percentage of players who have never heard of Otzdarva essentially, and are happy to play while being absolute garbage at the game. IIRC the last rough estimate was at most 50% people consume content, and less than half of those interact (comment on that content or on forums like this). Personally I'd basically argue that means at a minimum, anyone on the forums is in the top half of the playerbase. 'Top-MMR' is the top 25% of the playerbase according to the last known numbers (I am aware of). Basically MMR protects those bottom 50% of players from 'sweatlords' like us, and that is all it really is meant to do.
As for us 'sweatlords' (in comparison to the people MMR is designed to protect), it is kind of bad. Think if you barely inched into the elusive club of 'Top-MMR', so you are now in the top 25%, but you can go against the top 25%, the top 20%, the top 15%, the top 10%, the top 5%, the top 1%, and the top .00000001%. That is like a Gold League Player going against anyone from Gold to Challenger. Kinda nutty. The middle top 20-10% are probably best served by the current system of those within 'top-MMR'. They can get plenty of wins and losses, without too much of either extreme. The top 25% and the top 5% are in the worst case scenarios. To the top 25%, everyone feels like a top tier SWF compared to what they were going up against when they were only in the top 26%. The top 5% on the other hand are faced with nothing but easy matches, and have to bring meme builds or no perks to challenge themselves. Then when they actually face someone of their level, they might be ill equipped to deal with them if their opponents weren't also meming/naked on perks. This makes the bad matches feel worse, and the good matches too boring.
Personally I preferred grade/rank based matchmaking, because I would 2-hook tango and let Survs live for the (then) 5k Survival BP. They know I won, I know I won, and the game let me go easy if I got mismatched with a baby Surv. With MMR, I have to mercy kill every baby Surv that gets autofilled or I get autofilled into, because if I don't, they are going to go against stronger Killers, and I'm going to go against weaker Survivors. I can't even risk 2-hook tangoing in my normal matches, because I'll get nothing but baby Survs, and I want a challenge. If I want a free win I'll swap to Blight or Nurse for a match.
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100% agree with point 3 (nerfs 2 and 3). Although arguably I would extend the nerf 3 timer to 12-15s and remove the (nerf 2) early game slowdown in tunnels. If you get something like Midwich, that slowdown isn't going to help Survivors, and a longer timer would help all throughout the game. The longer timer or slower starting crawl both have their merits though.
Points 1 and 2 are too linked to really explore independently but my issues are mostly with turrets.
If there actually is counterplay to the crawler form (aka flame turrets being worth a thing), I can't honestly say I have a problem with it. The problem is the lack of counterplay.
Below 3 paragraph TL:DR: kick Xeno out of power at half the partial burn recharge after the damage de-charge delay and Nerf 1 is good.
My main issue with point 2 is that while I am of the opinion that it is too easy to reaction M2 a flame turret, but the time window is tight nonetheless. With the normal 10m flame turret range, the 4.8m whip, and the 1.5s needed to be burnt out of power, you have to close 5.2m (at 4.6m/s) in ~1.13s. You can whip fairly safe during this approach window, as the hitbox lingers for .4s, and with average human reaction times of .25s visual (according to google), that leaves you at 1.38s in the worst case scenario where the turret catches you unaware and are walking parallel to it. So it requires you to be ~50% slower than the average human (which I would argue most gamers have faster reactions than the average, but I digress) in order to fail at a reaction M2 turret break. Essentially, you are designed to be able to reliably reaction hit it with that math, but you'd sit at ~90% burnt every time. With the point 2 idea, the Xeno would average out at a ~32s average recharge (from 35s fully broken out of power). This might work if a partial burn kicked out of power at half the value, (after the Damage De-Charge delay to account for twig turret blocks for a milisecond) yielding a ~16s average recharge for partial burns.
The anti-turret add-ons would make this all the more effective, with the Cereal Rations and Light Wand allowing for easier turret 'spawn kills' out of tunnels (learning the timing for the invincibility timer post tunnel). Minimizing this timer of downtime to nothing with perfect timing, or near nothing playing it safe. The 8m turret add-on would yield an average (worst case caught unaware) ~22s/11s half recharge, and the Emergency Helmet yielding an average ~23.6/11.8s half recharge, and both combined yielding an average 16.2s/8.1s half recharge. Personally I would find it odd a Brown add-on would be better than a Yellow or Green, so I'd probably swap the E-Helmet and Cereal Rations in terms of rarity if the Xeno changes took this route. Also the Light Wand would be a counterplay to the emerging counterplay with this new system. People would place turrets further to prevent 'spawn kills', and this would allow Xeno to close the gap for the new 'spawn kill'.
Also for the math above, I didn't include latency because I don't think that matters for the Killer (for burns). When I reviewed footage of Xeno burns, the bar instantly stops filling up on the Killer's screen when they break it. If latency would matter for determining turret breaks and flame duration, the math would need to be adjusted accordingly. Also there might need to be a minimum 3-5s recharge timer when kicked out from a partial burn, just so the sound cues don't overlap with the 'spawn kill' short timers.
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You're not gunna believe this OP
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@Seraphor said:
Precisely why I don't see 'increasing MMR' as a positive or a goal, and will gladly let survivors escape when it feels right so that I don't boost my MMR too much.
Pre-MMR, I would normally 2 hook tango all Survivors and then farm out the rest of my BP caps. After though, I ran into too many baby Survs, and my matches stopped being enjoyable. Now I can't even give a baby Surv (when matchmaking autofills me or them) gate, or they might go against an even better Killer than I, so I have to mercy kill them (or give them hatch). I only risk giving Survivors gates now if they 'bribe' me with BPS/anniversary cakes when people aren't normally bringing them, and I can tell who brought which offering.
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@pseudechis said:
Yes MMR is borked but I've started to relish the challenge of the bad mismatches.
I'm begining to think the hand holding of modern games has given rise to a bunch of easily intimidated children.
Load up an old sega and try to survive the first levels of Zaxxon, by the fourth loop your skin is so thick it makes DBD's post game salt look like the bleating of an angry jelly bean.
I largely agree, but you have to at least have a chance of victory. I love Ping-Pong, but if you put me against an Olympic Athlete I'm not gunna have a good time. Single-player games are at least designed with that chance or path to victory that you can learn or overcome. A multiplayer game with a player with thousands of hours compared to "naw bro I don't need to play the tutorial, WASD moves right?" isn't going to make the person play again. If I keep playing that same single-player level, I can learn and beat it, but if I keep versing that same person with thousands of more hours than I, I'd probably only win if I got lucky.
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As far as the 'horror game' issue, it only really is a horror game for the first single digit, maybe some double digit hours. After that the horror wears off, and its just a (mostly) unique versus game. With the equal at all times, it is somewhat more to be equal in outcome, and equal in agency. Neither Killer nor Survivor should be in a situation where they have no agency other than the post-game screen, and even then they should at least have the agency to hit continue or quit on that screen. As far as equal in outcome, that is why they balance around a 60% kill rate. 60% includes inflated kill stats like facecamps and hard tunnels (which include Killer losses at 1k), as well as hatch escapes being an escape with a Killer win. You need both sides to have fun and a chance of victory, or they won't play. Some people only have fun on a win, some people create their own 'win-conditions'.
Now on the agency issue, Xeno has a couple problems in terms of pure agency. When exiting a tunnel, it destroys a turret mid grab, and the Survivor can't get out of range before a free hit. Even if they grab the turret, if the Killer is under the tunnel and exits it immediately, the Survivor has to spend ~2s dropping the turret and accelerating into a run from where they are. Most times this also results in a free hit. This happens at roughly the start of 60-75% of my Xeno matches as Survivor, 15% against me (before I started to crossmap exclusively once I know I'm against Xeno) and with the rest against my soloq team (from how quick they got hit). If hitting the panel to grab a turret consumed the turret count regardless and delayed that tunnel's exit time by 2s for the next 10-15s, it would give the Survivor enough agency to avoid a free hit.
There is a bit more to Xeno, such as how it is too easy to reaction M2 turrets without add-ons and remain in power, but nothing that immediately fits here for this post and the points I'm trying to make.
The problem with the Asym concept is you can't always trust the 4, or rather 3 others. Some people are just there to cleanse totems for their tome. Some just want to get the sick clicky clicky plays for their compilation. Some just want to get perk value. When any of these happens, it stops being a 1v4, and starts being a 2v3, a 3v2, or goodness forbid a 4v1 (with the 1 being you as Survivor).
There are no comms, so you can't justify any mechanic that requires any reasonable amount of coordination that other games would ask for. You don't have free aura reads on your team, so you can't play around them. You don't know their perks, so you can't purposely give them the time for an Unbreakable self-pickup/Flip-Flop or send the We'll Make it player for the rescue. Heck, I believe even Xeno's allied turret auras are only when you are nearby a tunnel, and some gens are too far from tunnels to let you know that information. Is someone supposed to check the tunnel every 4s until they see more turrets to plan ahead? What if the team isn't setting up turrets? That's the problem. You can't rely on the unreliable to be anything but. That's why the Killer role is more fun (at the cost of being more stressful, as every failure is your failure alone, and not someone else's). That's why I enjoy Killer, because I can weaponize that incompetence I just had to deal with during my soloq games while the incentive was at 100%.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3531414#Comment_3531414
How would that be fair for maps like Midwich and Gideon? Just lock half the, map off from Xeno's power? Make the upper level completely safe?
I mean to be fair the tunnels can be in the central walls/floor boards of Midwich and Gideon. The houses on Haddonfield and Springwood don't quite have the width.
But at the same time we are in the Entity's realm, so it doesn't exactly need to follow the laws of Physics. I understand having the tunnels there purely for gameplay mechanic reasons/Entity 'lore' reasons.
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@SleepyLunatic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3531926#Comment_3531926
If you want to see the perks, just wait until the match is over.
In you suggestion, solo players could still tell their mates the perks somehow via twitch or ps messages for example.
Not fair.
If you want to balance around Streamers (who can be stream sniped as both roles), that's absurd. You see a TTV as a Survivor, open up their chat in a second screen. You see someone snitch the perks then feel free to fully streamsnipe them. It isn't bannable as per the game rules, so they just gave you more knowledge and you can 'justify' it if you feel the need to justify it to yourself.
The amount of hoops you need to jump through in order to message a soloq teammate is equally absurd. "Lemme add everyone as a friend in the pre-game lobby on the off chance I die first and can tell them the perks they 99% of the time already know." Especially since on Steam they don't enter your recently played list until after the match is over for everyone, at least as Survivor.
The issue is the match IS over for the soloq Survivor. They are dead. They gain no more information watching fellow baby Survs and could learn more by playing more matches. They also would gain more info watching youtube tutorials than people of their (lack of a) skill level. People aren't going to stick around for potentially 20 minutes waiting for the match to end for everyone else when they are tunneled out first. Someone especially won't be willing to stick around when they (falsely) suspect the Killer of cheating, and the no perks 'proves' that. No where in the game does it tell you when or why the perks are displayed, this is word of mouth only. This makes the old Survivor cheater with no perks while also having all the perks seem to be the case for the Killer. This is only to punish new players. Not to help Killers in any meaningful capacity. The point of the change was to help Killers against SWFs communicating perks, so only apply this to SWFs, and not soloq.
But this is all off-topic to the thread, so you can have the last word to me here if you'd like, or start a thread and ping me or DM me if you want to continue this there. I just don't want you to think I'm sticking my fingers in my ears going 'lalalala'.
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@Xendritch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3532036#Comment_3532036
lol
How I know you don't play Xeno. Getting a hit while someone holding a turret requires prediction on survivor spawns and mostly happens at the beginning of the game, if you predict that correctly you should get rewarded for it. It very rarely happens outside of that so I don't see how it's an issue and trust me you don't actually want that because the number of players that would accidently sprint holding a turret and put it on it's 60 second respawn timer would be crazy.
The killer instinct is because coming up from the tunnels is because coming up is disorienting and they sometimes face away from the gen and if survivors only run when they hear you come from a tunnel you're not even getting the footsteps nor are you getting footsteps if survivors are only working on gens or holding a turrets.
Next we're for some reason surprised pikachu that a Zarina that just stops moving completely made no distance after a missed tail attack which not sure why but okay.
Huntress is 110% because the hatchets can go across the map and she can hit you from 14+ meters away during chase I don't know why we're equating that to the shortest ranged m2 attack in the entire game like that's actually a baffling false equivalency. Which when we're not doing that we're just suggesting to take away Xeno's skill expression and counterplay to their counterplay because why have skill expression when we can just give survivors free value for doing the bare minimum lol.
Singularity has the lowest kill rate of any killer as per nightlight.gg and ask literally anyone Singularity is incredibly frustrating to play at the present moment, if you think they're in a good spot I don't know what to tell you but giving everything else you've said I'm not surprised you think this. But considering we're now just saying Xeno requires no skill when her entire power centers around a skill shot I just think this bait posting and I can't take any of this seriously.
It seems to happen to me in ~15% of the start of my matches against Xeno that I didn't crossmap from the start, and estimating from how quick Xeno got hits against my teammates it happened ~60% of the time. That only leaves 25% of matches that didn't have a free hit from the onset. It isn't a prediction of any skill to think "they probably spawned away from me" then seeing footsteps heading towards the tunnel.
Survivors have to run from the tunnel or they give a free hit, so there is almost always going to be scratch marks to follow. When I did manage to play Xeno, a Mikaela hid and wasn't moving, and the KI gave me free intel on finding her. She thought she was hidden, but the KI range was too large to help her.
Zarina: To be fair, yes she stood still for a second, but she was in no-lunge M1 range during the 2-3s tail CD. If she ran, she would only have made it 4m, still in tail range, and couldn't make it to a pallet/window regardless.
Huntress isn't 110%/4.4m/s while holding a hatchet though, she is 77%/3.08m/s. Anyone who has played as or against a 'melee' Huntress would know those speed timings are what make her fair at loops. If she respects the pallet, she gets a hit against a pallet drop, but the Survivor gets an extra loop if they greed it. If she runs through the pallet, she can get an M1 on the loop before the Survivor reaches the pallet again, but the Survivor can get the stun if they drop it. It is a fair 50/50 mindgame/coin toss, with no clear winner decided from the onset. That is what I am comparing to Xeno. That is what is unfair for Survivor. If the Xeno plays optimally, it is always a hit. It is on the Killer to screw up, with no agency given to the Survivor other than to choose how far from hook they get downed.
I can understand the frustrations of playing Singularity, he roughly uses Ghostface's stalk logic, but it resets on a pixel blocking the Survivor. He also requires high mechanical skill and accuracy, as well as tactical positioning. You can't aim fast enough on controller, which tanks the number of console players. Also I tend to get burnt out playing Ghostface too many times in a row, because it is similarly tactically demanding for the reward put in. Especially when compared to how easy it is to autopilot Blight and Bubba and still win. Personally I don't care for nightlight kill rate stats, because it is only based on self-reports. In some cases it is like the "About to go fight, I'll post the video after --- I got destroyed bruh, I'm not posting that". In other cases it could be considered only in top MMR, which is only 25% of the playerbase. If he destroys newer players to reach a good kill rate it would be unfortunate, but I can understand why BHVR wouldn't adjust him. I think Singularity should have a similar mechanic to Ghostface being revealed by Survivors, but on his Biopod tagging. That way it 'saves' the progress and if they get back out of position you can continue from roughly where it left off.
As far as Xeno's 'skillshot', I don't consider the straight line used at loops optimally to require any skill. If you were talking about the greedy/risky drag down over objects shots, then I agree. But waiting for a window vault/pallet drop or them not taking the option doesn't require skill. It's like the crossmap Artist versus the zoning crow at loops Artist. People respect the skill of a crossmap Artist, they hate the boring no counterplay other than hold-W zoning Artist. Although even the zoning Artist can be mindgamed into an early bird send on occasion giving slightly more hope for counterplay. Since Xeno can reaction whip at a vault, (.2s windup, .25s average visual reaction time for a total .45s Xeno tail against the Survivor ~.46s Resilience Fast vault speed, or .5s normal Fast vault) he gives no hope for his opponents. The most skill a Xeno needs to exert is a .2s strafing M2 over a pallet, but that isn't enough skill required to matter. That's simply learning his power. I wouldn't consider someone who doesn't know how to blink a Nurse, I would consider them a baby Nurse. I would consider someone who thinks T1 Nemesis can whip break pallets a baby Nemmy. It is the same for Xeno/baby Xenos. We all start as the baby Killer, then we learn the mechanics, even if we have the transferable knowledge of the M1 framework.
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@Xendritch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3531963#Comment_3531963
What do you actually want the turrets to do? Realistically? Because best case they take away the killer's power and they were doing that ( much more than they really should have tbh it peeves me when people complain about killers they're obviously not good with but that's a different discussion) so they did their job?
I feel like survivors really just want singularity 2.0 where the counterplayer makes the killer benign and frustrating to play just because god forbid we get strong killers added to the game that provide a challenge.
No turret hindered, but you drop the turret (with no animation) when you run, so there are no more turret free hits. The Killer can already (add-onless) reaction M2 turrets, so it is only effective against Killer players who haven't played any video game before, or when you run along the outskirts with it hidden in a bush. I would also remove the Killer Instinct on tunnel exit, as the footsteps are enough intel. The other issue is the lack of a miss cooldown/slowdown (worth mentioning). Here, the Zarina was missed, but by the time the miss CD was done, the Killer was able to M1. If the Xeno's power is going to be a permanent pre-wound (edit: wound as in wound up arm, not wound as in injured) Huntress, it should be punishing to miss, be 4.4 while the attack is available, or Turrets need to be able to break it out of power before a (add-onless) reaction M2.
Singularity's counterplay is fair, and the Killer is very strong. The problem is it is like Nurse/Huntress where you practically need a mouse, the Killer just isn't built with a controller in mind, as the TP biopod 'autoaim' is nonexistent, and you need quick snappy aim onto Survivors. Singularity's other problem is he is one of a few Killers who suffer from latency rather than only having an advantage from it. Most Killers are used to the basic Lagvantage coded in the game. If you get a hit at a window, and the person then teleports 5 feet or around a corner, that was a lag hit that was a clear miss on their screen. This makes the 'attacker' the one who has Lagvantage. Ghosty's reveal logic makes the Survivor the attacker, and thus the one with Lagvantage (in terms of revealing), similar to EMPs with Singularity. If you EMP while the TP biopod is en-route, the attacker EMP hits before the attacker TP biopod. Singularity requires skill and effort, and Xeno requires neither.
@KingDeathly said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3531967#Comment_3531967
I have no problem looping this killer,and making distance. This killer is easier to go against then the majority of the roster. Hell even nemesis,and demo are harder to go against then xeno. Tell me how I am able to do that when I'm not even that good at this game. I have 1,200 hours,and I can va this killer just fine.
Just because you lack skill doesn't mean the devs should nerf the killer to compensate your lack of skill. Go practice,and get good. Stop crying on the forums to nerf a already C tier killer. It's sad.
Could you explain how you loop an in-power Xeno that isn't a baby Killer? First when they run past the flame turret and reaction M2 it, that buys you an extra 3-5s in chase. Then in my experience, pallets are death sentences unless it is a pre-dropped god pallet. If you pre-drop a normal pallet, they walk around. If you greed the pallet, they walk through and get the M1 before you loop back around. If you try to stun at the pallet, they respect it and get an M2 hit. So all pallet scenarios are on the Killer to fail, not the Survivor and Killer to have a fair back and forth, hence why I said against a non-baby Killer. Windows are of varying strengths, but an LT wall is also a death sentence against Xeno. Normal loops with a pallet are balanced around running window to pallet to window again (and so on), so once you reach the pallet portion you lose all the while the Xeno is gaining Bloodlust. The only Xenos that don't have free Bloodlust are the ones going for risky shots rather than taking the free win move.
As for Nemmy and Demo, they are much easier for me to go against, because depending on the Killer, you can reaction dodge on hearing the sound cue without looking backwards. Once they realize you reaction dodge, you can commit to the vault/greed the pallet instead. After that you need to mix it up between a reaction dodge or commit/vault. They also don't get 18 m/s map mobility for free with KI revealing even hiding Survivors, giving them instant value on a pop, and free hits against anyone carrying a turret. Demo gets 20m/s map mobility, but only after he spends ~3s placing a portal where he wants it, with a longer portal exit timer and greater sound cues to respond and leave.
As far as 'lack of skill' That is a hilarious claim to make, but I'll bite. Checking deadbystats we get this.
I have ~70% gens protected ratio as Killer, which means I win 70% of my games before the Survivors are able to finish all the gens. Even if we were to take the extreme stats of the remaining 30% are 4 man escapes, (and not also potentially 1ks, 2ks, 3ks, and 4ks after the gens pop) that still leaves me at a 70% win rate, which is well above an even, normal, 50% win loss ratio.
I beat 3 MfTs, 3 Windows, 2 Resils, 2 Hopes, a Dead Hard (I kept swinging into because I mixed up who had it) and a BNP as Freddy without hard tunneling (since the lowest BP a surv had was more than 10k BP) with effectively 1 perk (because they cleansed both totems by my 2nd hook, and OC was bugged to not give skillchecks if you tapped gens immediately prior to the Xeno patch). But by all means, prove I lack skill when I have receipts. (Also yes, I have Freddy P9, but only because I am going down the character lists for charms, I'm on Pyramid Head as Killer and Nea as Survivor at the moment.) Now to be fair, I am weaker at Survivor than I am at Killer, but I can recognize when there is a problem regardless. Xeno's current strength is a problem, and this is the time for larger changes (like running drops Turrets) before we get locked into another Nurse or Skull Merchant.
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I'd much rather all map offerings be condensed into a singular item (as the same item as Sacrificial Ward). They also would only show up as a single item in the Bloodwebs. The idea is you select the map offering and it brings up a submenu for map selection or negate map choice (with negate being the default if nothing is selected in time). Map offerings are already too plentiful, so reducing the pool to a singular item helps prevent spamming a single map in the long run, while also future proofing for additional maps. We can keep the icons to indicate which map is currently being selected on your own offering, and in the offering post-lobby/pre-load screen and the escape menu in game. We could also potentially add new icons for the specific maps in say Autohaven/Macmillan.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
If anything I would give it the added effect of inflicting Hemorrhage any time you’re injured. Resilience is supposed to be a risk/reward perk that you have to be injured to benefit from. Healing to 99% and then benefiting from its effects until the killer comes and then topping off the heal removes the intended risk of the perk. That’s my only issue with it, it’s completely fine otherwise. I don’t think an Exhaustion limit is necessary.
An alternative idea if they don’t want to go that far is make its action speed bonus decrease proportionally to your heal progress. So for example if you are 50% healed then you only get a 4.5% bonus instead of 9% which would achieve a similar goal.
The unhealed percentage is the common suggestion I make for both Resilience and MfT. I just wouldn't want it applied to Iron Will because the perk is already gutted and bleeding out in the dumpster.
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@Xendritch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3531949#Comment_3531949
getting m1'd is OP you're right.
Excellent job deflecting, but this isn't Dark Souls. The point was turrets burning don't do enough, and it showed burning didn't do enough. Your refute is a whimpering 'nuhuh'. I'm sorry, but take the L gracefully, or make a legitimate counterpoint.
Edit: I'd prefer the legitimate counterpoint to be clear.
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@Xendritch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3531078#Comment_3531078
There's something ironic about releasing a video complaining that turrets don't do enough while showing footage of them getting burned out of their power over and over.
Ok, 4:55 turret burns Xeno out, gets the hit at 5:00, or 5s later, with the 2nd hit and down at 5:18. Burned out at 6:50, gets the hit at 7:05, and a free hit at 7:22 because he was getting value from the undetectable out of burned add-on, then the down at 7:43 against that person while getting the power back mid chase. It would help paying attention to the video instead of just replying 'lul'. The add-on is based around getting burned out, and he made it a lose-lose for Survivor more than it already is.
Edit: Every other time (like 8:30) it appears he was already out of power so getting burned didn't matter, especially since he got the hit at 8:33 and the down at 8:46.
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@Anna850906 said:
now days its impossible to wigglw out survivors perks have been so nerfed its turning in to suiside to just play survivor. and mmr is so ######### stupid i get hooked up with ppl ho have 40 houers in the game amd just hiding the hole game how is that fair? medkits do i have to say anything.
If you are talking about Hook Spawns, yeah its getting excessive, they are too close, and it empowers Killers to camp. I sabo'd 2 hooks while taking a hit and Sprint Bursting and the Killer still reached a 3rd hook in time, but to be fair it was RPD.
If you are talking about the recent Breakout change, yeah, 5m is a nerf because laggy Killers will always get a hit with that short of range. I preferred the old 6m with slightly slower wiggle boost.
If you are talking about the great wiggle checks, then yeah, the greats do nothing other than give you more Survival BP. I think the shaving 1s off of total carry time with hitting all of the harder Greats was a better system.
MMR doesn't function if anyone backs out of a lobby, be that Killer or Survivor. Backfill ignores matchmaking. Your best bet is to back out of a lobby if multiple Killers or Survivors back out also. Wait 5-10 minutes, then queue up again. If you have missing slots in the lobby you kinda need to wait another 5-10 minutes and hope for the best.
Medkits were both nerfed in a fair, but ultimately boring manner. The difference between medkits shouldn't merely be 5% altruism rate per tier. I'd remove the self heal speed nerf on Greens, and remove the self-heal efficiency nerf on Purples and bring them back to 32 charges. That way there actually is medkit variety, instead of a Syringe on the Brown being the best medkit. That also leaves yellow's niche in the dust, but that's ok. Its sad though that Pharmacy is now strictly worse than Self-Care. It takes ~46s to heal with Self-Care, and it takes 34s just to open the chest and use the pharmacy medkit, not even including the ludicrous time to find a chest, the animation to open it and the animation to grab the medkit itself.
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I think showing the Killers perks on death would help newer players far more than a gen count which could equally be confusing if you didn't pay attention at the start. If you aren't seeing 0/5 at the start, because why would you care about the starting gen count, then when you have 2/5 is that 2 remaining or 2 completed?
I understand showing the Killer's perks and add-ons can be an issue for SWFs, so just make soloq see perks on death. In a newbie SWF you likely are going to spectate your friends and wait to the end to see the perks regardless, or your more experience friends will tell you. In soloq if you get tunneled out early as a newbie and don't know how they kept finding you, you might see BBQ/Alien Instinct/Floods of Rage and then know why they kept finding you. Otherwise you might have a Killer seemingly be cheating (due to your lack of perk knowledge), see the perks are blank, so the dude definitely must be cheating because he had no perks, and it's always those 'no-perk cheaters' that always kill you (because you see the perks when you win). Definitely not talking from experience... yep, I never had that problem starting out...
Edit: I kinda like the idea of the gen count, as long as both versions are options for the HUD version in the menus.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3531253#Comment_3531253
It's most likely either luck, or they somehow knew you were heading to that station through aura reading or something.
If xeno happens to be in the tunnels under you then yes they see your footsteps.
There's nothing in the kit, base or add on, that notifies when a turret is picked up, but if xeno and a survivor converge on a station, it's likely the survivor is picking up a turret and likely the xeno will notice the footsteps.
The thing is it takes ~3s to grab the turret, ~3s to place the turret and ~5-8s to find a good place to set it. If a Xeno on spawn rolls the dice and enters the tunnel and crossmaps to the furthest gen, they will find someone during this timeframe in 75% or more of matches. It doesn't help that there is Killer Instinct for no discernible reason on tunnel exit. The footsteps are good enough, they don't need KI on tunnel exit also.
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@Merciless_Killer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3531145#Comment_3531145
If xeno players wanted to play an m1 killer they would pick an m1 killer.
@Aviastras said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3531145#Comment_3531145
You just want another M1 killer to bully
So having 1 Survivor permanently on turret duty on the off chance that you can knock Xeno out of power (as it isn't like there is a brown add-on that tells you where all turrets are located) isn't enough slowdown and free pressure? I'm sorry that you two are so out of touch with the soloq experience, but at the same time I'm glad you are so sheltered and don't know that same pain. I play both Surv and Killer to learn the strengths and weaknesses to win future matches (as both roles), but mostly play Killer overall. The best time to play Survivor is the opening week of the Killer, so you can learn the mechanics while everyone is playing the Killer, whereas you can play the new Killer whenever. In that regard it is better to play the new Killer the 2nd week, or when the incentive is 100% Killer at odd hours.
I got my tomes done, so I'm not touching Survivor unless playing with friends (but since Deceive just got a fun update we likely won't touch DBD for a while either). It'll be my main man Ghosty for the next month or so, maybe some Xeno if I want to win while barely trying without picking Blight or Nurse for a truly free win. I might try out Clown with STBFL+Rapid Brutality for the '11 STBFL stack' meme build.
But to mirror your complaints "You just want another free win Killer without reasonable counterplay", there I can make inflammatory and false statements too! M1 Killers are a true expression of skill because you can't crutch. Legion, Clown, and Ghosty (which to be fair, Ghosty is a setup Killer like Trapper/Hag, but you set up traps/99'd stalks on the Survivors instead) are my go to Killers, because they are simple, fun, and any Victory was mine to be earned, rather than gifted to me on a silver platter.
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@Aviastras said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/389883/turrets-feels-useless
What would be the point of playing Xeno if you would lose your power every time you get into the turret's area?
Because it takes a Survivor 15s to set them up in a position worth mentioning, they each have a minute cooldown, and the power only takes 5s of tunnel crawling to get back. Plus it isn't like Xeno is 4.4, Xeno is 4.6, and plenty capable to down Survivors with M1.
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@burt0r said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3530181#Comment_3530181
Okay killer without chase effective power (and with chase I mean my example, just running, not even looping):
trapper, Micheal, hag, doc, Freddy, pig, plague (without red bile), ghost face, oni (before first rage), Nemesis (until he comes into tentacle range), knight (afaik his ghosts can catch-up to a survivor but I might be wrong on this one), skull merchant. None of them can slow the survivor during a straight chase.
And yes stealth killer will get the first hit but either have to abandoned chase and hope the survivor isn't healed until the next encounter or have to simply continue chasing. Same with legion, for their second hit they have to chase a survivor normally.
Clown can influence survivor in front of them/at a distance so he falls under killer with chase effective power.
That is a very strange definition of chase effective power, when you basically limit it to mobility only. While it is true many of those characters lack a chase power by your standards, they are supposed to use their power to win in other ways. They mostly all shorten chases by using different methods. (With the exception of Pig who wins through attrition largely.)
Trapper either forces a loop swap, or ends a chase early because they didn't see the trap. Hag sets traps and teleports for the hit. Ghostface's power is to 1-hit down people and sneak up on them with a small profile, while also setting up 99's to punish healthy rescues and greed. Each of those I would consider a 'set-up' Killer. They win by choosing their engagements and forcing Survivors into losing positions, be it a heavily bear trapped area, the web of hag traps, and 99's saved for rainy days.
Plague is like a better version of Legion, where everyone is perpetually injured due to being sick, which means when the Killer forces objectives like hook rescues, they die on route and the Killer can snowball easily. This is reliant on knowing where the Survivors are, so the Killer can cut them off. This makes Legion's Killer Instinct intel and Plague vomit aura add-on very powerful when used correctly, but can still be used with perks instead.
I'm very confused why Nemesis out of Tentacle range is considered, when he is nearly always in tentacle range. Oni against soloq is basically a permanent blood fountain. So while both are correct in an extreme sense, that's almost like saying Huntress doesn't have a power when she misses all of her hatchets and is out of ammo. Both Nemmy and Oni have near constant access to their power.
Also Freddy is like a purple bottle only at loops Clown with teleports. So you can maintain a map presence at the cost of Clown's yellow bottles basically. Even then, yellow bottles in chase are the superior way to win as Clown, so its fair to say Freddy is weak.
Knight and Doc both kinda operate under the same paradigm of "I will eventually get a hit at this loop". But Doc's slowdown is just too outdated imo. As an honorable mention, Myers is also in the outdated department.
By large those Killers are macro reliant (worrying about map wide gens/pallets/hook states) more than micro reliant (chasing after a Survivor like a dog after a stick). I think both micro and macro are important playstyles to encourage, as long as they don't reach Nurse (for micro) and Hostage Merchant (for macro) levels.
Most of these lack of mobility complaints don't quite matter when the Killer can shorten chases with effective uses of power. I'd almost consider a Bloodlusted hit (aka powerless) the baseline speed. If the Killer player knows their character, they wouldn't use the power if it would take longer than the BL hit.
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They basically need 2 fixes.
First, you can place the turret even if the zone is red, but it takes twice or three times as long. That fixes indoor maps.
Second, the hindered is removed, and if you start to run, it drops the turret on the spot (or destroys it with a shortened 15s CD) without an animation. This slows turret movement down from 2.6 (35% hindered run speed) to 2.26 (normal walk speed), but if Xeno instantly pops up out of the tunnel you can run and don't give a free hit. Pickup and drop item button drop speeds are not adjusted, just running hard drops the turret.
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3530527#Comment_3530527
No offense, but this whole post reads like you only ever play against literal bot survivors. The survivors I'm talking about using MFT aren't the ones you can "just injure all 4" as an afterthought, nor do they congregate (especially when injured), nor do they give free hits, nor do they hang around a gen when they hear TR nearby. As an M1 killer, you have to hold W for 15-20s to even begin chase when they prerun after hearing your TR (even more if they decide to prerun very early).
Have you played this game before? 90% of matches are filled with at a minimum of what you'd consider 1 bot Survivor, and 1 bot Survivor makes the whole house of cards fall down. The next 9% don't have bot Survivors, but are still soloq or an uncoordinated SWF. The final 1% (or probably much less) are actual sweat SWFs. I have to assume you wouldn't be complaining this hard about less than 1% 'impossible', or rather annoying but winnable in actuality, (or 10% minor inconvenience) matches. I have too much faith in humanity for that to be the case.
Yes they don't hang around giving free hits, thats what previously broken pallets are for. However they do give greed hits. People get greedy, they take the hit to juice 2 more seconds on the gen, and because they think (if they brought it) MfT will save them after the first hit. Most gens are close to the edge of a map and that forces them into a loop. Also if people are leaving gens on TR like you claim, I would never lose a gen when I'm not playing Ghostface, and all Weskers that bring a single slowdown perk would always win at 5 gens. We both know that isn't the case, so don't pretend otherwise.
Now to be fair, I missed a lot of the nitty gritty details. You would be fair in claiming this could be a 'draw the rest of the owl' post, but I tried to include as many broad strokes as possible for people who might need it. It is difficult to sum thousands of hours of knowledge and experimentation into a few paragraphs, but I tried to balance being concise and comprehensive, which doesn't quite gel together.
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3530414#Comment_3530414
I think there's some severe misunderstanding on your part here. Time resets AFTER you make the pallet/window, not before. Killer vaults/breaks pallet? You gain distance, and that distance is artificially extended by MFT. Sprint Burst's benefit is frontloaded (4.63 seconds vs MFT) on use. MFT resets that benefit on every pallet break (breaking is 2.34s, or about 9~10m of distance. With two pallet breaks, you've exceeded the time gain from Sprint Burst).
There are pallets that you make with MFT that you wouldn't make with SB as well. This ties into being able to greed more often, and chaining loops easier. Some pallets you can't Bloodlust. The ones that you can, your best recommendation is really to force the killer to waste 25 to 35s on a SINGLE pallet to force a down while the other three survivors are merrily cranking away gens unbothered? Then there really is a problem with MFT. Never mind the fact that there is never an obvious indicator that a survivor is using it until you see them do something egregious like making shack window after losing all distance to a well timed vault.
That was the thing I was talking about. AFTER you make a safe vault, the SB/MfT difference is based only upon the safe/unsafe quality of the loop. God pallets or forced kicks? Get them outta the way early. Now they can't use them for the rest of the match. It sounds like the way you describe Killer, that you should never play a pallet. If a Survivor drops a pallet, the Killer is legally obligated to kick it. That sounds more Survivor rulebooky than what most Surv mains claim. You can kick the 3 pallets in a line the dingus dropped after you down them. No need to play into their favor.
3 gens being worked: This is where you appear to be mistaken. (Circumstances dependent) I recommend injuring all Survs and maybe burning a pallet out of them making them think they 'won' chase. They won the battle, but you will win the war. Then you can go back to the gen without the safe pallet they are trying to pump, and chase them into the corner with the simple pallet. That is likely the pallet you are saying is MfT-able (at Bloodlust 1) but not SB-able. You already spent 5-15 seconds reaching that pallet in chase in the first place, so BL1 now sets you back to even footing where a successful mindgame gets the hit, or you can wait out the 10s for BL2 while attempting the mindgames regardless, win win. Just never attempt the mindgame on the side that would open them up to the map. Once all are injured, and you have this one down and soon to be on hook, they are forced into a lose-lose. This Surv A is on hook, but they need to heal to rescue them. So now Survs B and C have to find each other and heal (or give themselves 15% gen slowdown earlier and duo a gen, a win either way for Killer, and if a duo gen was the initial gen you found, then all the better), Surv D gets chased, downed, and now best case scenario for the Survs, you have 2 on hook and 2 healthy Survs (remember, 16s per heal with 2 heals being 32s, and halfway into Bloodlust 2 is 30s, slightly in the Killers favor). Intercept B attempting to rescue A (while C goes for D), and they have to hook trade, and remember, you hooked Surv A in a deadzone, so there is no more pallets for them to use. Again, best case scenario for them is Surv B is now on hook, C finished healing D, and A is injured trying to run away from you. Everyone is so blinded by the micro of a singular chase, they fail to understand the macro detriment to staying injured, and losing in a steady snowball in the best of cases for Survivors.
Gens are a resource to manage as Killer, just like HP in strategy and roleplaying games. You can fight just as effectively (in most systems) at max health, just the same as 1 hp. As long as you drain your opponents health faster than they can drain yours, you win. That is what is being tested. Your ability to get 12 hooks/4 kills before they get 5 gens + the gates opened. If they use a chase delay perk (MfT), you can use a gen delay perk (Pop/PR). Both are serving the same goal, to lessen your side's 'HP' loss.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3530455#Comment_3530455
Yeah, I also get 4Ks with Trapper from time to time. That doesn't means that the moment you get decent and efficient survivors with meta perks you should be thankful of getting a 2K after sweating blood with him most of the time.
I'm just saying I believe in you, and I wish you'd believe in yourself.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3530450#Comment_3530450
That statement is true for high MMR matchmaking as well. But if it makes you happy, I can say "70% of the roster" instead, so it's not an exaggerated number.
Would you consider Freddy in that top 30%?
It's not hard if you put your mind to it. Learn to lose, to learn to win. I started by intentionally going for a 9 hook first kill, and I was able to adapt and overcome by forcing myself to chase the best Survivor in every lobby as well as the worst. More loops means more strategies, means more won games.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3530439#Comment_3530439
... who have said anything about tournaments?
That statement is only (arguably) true for tournies. I give people the benefit of the doubt and assume they aren't lying.
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That's one of many reasons I continuously advocate for 1 Killer ban per 5 released. (Killer getting 1 map ban per 5 released) If I have a heal tome, Plague isn't going to let me play the game. It would be better to prevent the negative extremes from happening in the first place. If some Killers are banned at disproportionate amounts, it is clear something about them is a problem and in need of fixing in some fashion.
Edit: Grammar