mizark3
mizark3
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@Raconteurminator said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3537196#Comment_3537196
1) There'd also be plenty of people banning the use of Wesker or Pinhead or Plague; does that mean they're broken and need adjusting? What would a survey tell you about them? A lot of people saying they're not fun to play against for a wide variety of non-actionable reasons.
2) Just because it isn't particularly good in its implementation doesn't mean skill-based matchmaking doesn't exist. And the answer to any problems concerning it is to make it better - not defenestrate it and call it a day.
3) Did I say it would disable the ability to play at all? No, no I did not. Don't strawman me. No-one pays for DLC to be told when they can and can't play it. This isn't DOTA, this isn't Rainbow 6 Siege; this is DBD, I don't care at all what different games of different genres do. You don't, and can't, balance an asymmetrical survival game in the same way you balance a MOBA or team shooter. This game doesn't have the player-base to go around making silly choices and driving people away in the thousands.
- The survey would help tell whether they are in need of adjustment. When people say "I ban Plague because I don't like a mechanic (altruism) deleted from the game", they may introduce a method to 'pre-cleanse' and grab a limited item that allows you to cleanse a teammate. When they see people say "I ban Wesker because I see too much of him", they know that mechanically nothing needs adjusting. But at the same time, if they say "I ban Wesker because he always tunnels me post hook and I am infected and can't do anything. Even if I spray, he tunnels me because he is told my location.", then they might adjust the post-hook infection. Similar with Pinhead, "I ban Pinhead because I am playing soloq and can't communicate with my team properly when I am going for the box, causing 3 of us to go for the box at the same time.", could lead to a chat wheel with simple statements like "I'm going for the Killer's mechanic" or "Killer is busy with me" (implying chase or stealth searching) or "I'll get the rescue".
- Agreed, a perfect way to fix and make better our only queue, ranked queue, is implement Killer bans! I'm glad we agree!
- Then how does Killer bans, which would only appear as a longer queue time, prevent play? It would delay, not prevent. That isn't a strawman if that is addressing the conclusion of your statement. Wait, let me quote it "Yes, let's just stop people using the content they paid for." You literally said they had to hard stop, not merely be delayed, although to be fair you may have meant something different from what you typed, and internet confusion led to even more muddied waters. They can play it, and they are told by the incentive which queues are faster, both with the current Killer/Survivor, and the proposed lesser banned Killers. Does playing against the incentive mean you can't play that role currently? "Making silly choices and driving people away in the thousands" - like leaving Blight and Nurse untouched with no basekit method like bans of ensuring you won't have a bad time? That is the current problem, and bans would fix it. This is a solution to an existing problem. It does seem foolish to ignore solutions other games have found for the same problem, even if you don't care to play those games. To me that seems like refusing to use fertilizer on your garden only because a neighbor does it too, as opposed to a reason like not being able to afford that brand of fertilizer, or they are growing something out of climate and it needs the extra boost that fertilizer offers.
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Yesn't
BHVR has given both answers. When I asked about when Flashbang was bugged and could stack, the answer was no. When someone asked on a different bug 6 months later the answer was "check the rules", which in that case was essentially 'yes, bannable'.
If you take the rules alone here you get:
EXPLOITS: ABUSING BUGS OR ERRORS IN DESIGN TO GAIN A COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE
- Advertising exploits
- Exploit bugs, errors in design, or undocumented features to gain access to what otherwise would not be available or to obtain a competitive advantage
- In-game report REQUIRED / Player Support ticket OPTIONAL
However I have noticed that you often need video evidence and a Player Support ticket or you will not get feedback. Keep in mind, this means Blight 'hugtech' or more accurately 'bugtech' is a bug exploit, but you have to show that it is intentionally done to prove intent. That basically means you have to show they did whatever bug exploit multiple times.
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Because like Exhaustion, Endurance cannot stack. This is good and bad. Anti-tunnel Endurance shouldn't cause Deep Wound, but the rest is fine.
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@PotatoPotahto said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3537049#Comment_3537049
Killer perks not getting as big nerfs as survivors? You serious?
Undying: went from relighting a hex 4 times to relighting it once
Ruin: 200% regression into 100% regression, not worth running anymore
Call of Brine: extra 100% regression into extra 25% regression
Overcharge: extra 100% regression into extra 35% regression
Eruption: straight up removed the main part of the perk
If anything, it is survivors who had their favourite toys untouched by nerfs for an unreasonably long time
I mean if you are going to include 6.1.0 changes, you should include
DS: No endgame, 3s stun from 5s
Self-Care: 35% from 50%
Iron Will: 75% while not exhausted (why even 75%, you can still be heard quite easy and I have hearing damage)
Calm Spirit: 30% slowdown for daring to not do gens.
DH: Free insta-win button in loops that first got nerfed to use Endurance (if the Killer isn't laggy), then got nerfed further to only work post-unhook.
CoH: Free Self-Care better than the old 50% self-care for the entire team. Dropped to We'll Make it only if a teammate is present.
Also I'd say Eruption at the fair 6% 16s Incap is only sidegraded and arguably better at 10% and 12s aura read. Everyone knows 25s Incap was ludicrous and should never have happened. Sadly the people who used that version think they are good at the game since they had "Eruption MMR Inflation", and now can't handle normal Survivors in chase, let alone MfT users.
The main problem with Survivor meta perks are pick your favorite exhaustion perk, then pick which design flaw you don't want to deal with.
Killer on the other hand has a variety of fun and usable meme builds for the most part. You can go 11 STBFL stack Clown by bringing Rapid Brutailty alongside STBFL as usual. You can bring a basic Pop/Eruption/Nowhere to Hide. You can bring Endgame pain with NOED/NWO/Remember Me and tunnel the Obsession out. You can bring facecamping Bubba with Deadlock and get a minimum 2k. You can bring the classic Enduring/Spirit Fury. You can also bring Mad Grit and your favorite combination of carry perks.
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@Pulsar said:
They'll remove the Endurance and do nothing else because they are reasonable.
To be fair I would accept the alternative of keeping the Endurance, and swapping the haste values of MfT and Dark Theory.
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Ultimate Weapon isn't a problem, well maybe the locker 'bug', but its users are the real problem. Nurse and Blight are what make UW busted, just like Starstruck before.
I don't understand why Doctor's blast (which is tied to TR) and every other scream perk is countered by lockers, but UW is designed to skip over lockers. That tells me that it is bugged, but BHVR seems to think differently.
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This is normally a feature for ranked modes only... however we can't opt out of MMR, so this should definitely be in the game. My usual suggestion is 1 ban per 5 characters released (disabled on the opening week of a new Killer), with a personal ban for 5 players total. You would need to play and finish a match with the person for the personal ban. (That way you can't just ban a big figure and deny them matches.) SWF uses the lobby leader's bans and ignores the rest.
It would likely need an extra Killer incentive for the rarer banned Killers. I'd have a 100% incentive for the bottom (total ban number), and a 50% incentive for the next (total ban number). For example if there would be 5 bans, the bottom 5 get 100%, the bottom 6-10 gets 50%.
Also to counterbalance Killers would get a map ban system. Similar numbers and logic given as Survivors and Killer, but for Killer and map.
@Raconteurminator said:
It seems like this is a really convoluted mechanism to destroy matchmaking and increase queue times drastically. Four players filtering out a Killer and a player each: when do you want a game? Christmas? SWFs would simply enter into a match with one of the top four Killers blacklisted each to all but guarantee a win/super-happy-bully-time. A player beat them anyway? Well, they can go on the blacklist as well.
And no, it would provide zero feedback on which Killers need adjusting.
No feedback for adjustment - How so? If everyone who uses the optional system (btw the beta wiggle was used by less than 50% of players, people don't check the options that much) bans Nurse, that is clear feedback people don't want to play against Nurse. It doesn't say why but it does give the what. The occasional player surveys can include questions about the top banned Killers, and peoples feedback as to why they are banned.
@Raconteurminator said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3535981#Comment_3535981
There would be four players, each with a blackball. That's four Killers they can block - why would it only be a problem if people played 1 or 2 Killers?
Freedom of choice doesn't apply to skill-based matchmaking. If you can opt out of it or twist things in your favour, it isn't skill-based matchmaking.
If you can opt out or twist things in your favor, it isn't skill-based matchmaking - I mean it already isn't skill-based matchmaking, it's kill-based matchmaking. The match where you go in with naked/no perks is at the same rating as all meta perks. The match with a juicy toolbox is rated the same as a brown medkit. The Killer can bring Clown, or they can bring Nurse. That already throws skill out the window.
@Raconteurminator said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3537031#Comment_3537031
"So if you want that, lets keep allowing the players who play killer to play the same damn killer every match."
Yes, let's just stop people using the content they paid for. I'm sure that won't have an extremely negative effect on the game or Behaviour's reputation. "Y'know that Killer you bought and expected to play? Too bad! Arbitrary limitations, baby!"
My friend, you're not being a wet blanket, you're being the whole laundromat. There's wanting things to be more balanced, then there's wanting to gut everything the opposing players have because you've fallen to blind tribalism and can't see that the changes you propose will actually kill the game. Change takes time, great change takes greater periods of time, so give it time.
There is no Us and Them, there's just us. People, here, trying to play a game best we can. Let's not give in to schoolyard mentality.
Yes, let's just stop people using the content they paid for - Where would this disable a person's ability to play AT ALL? Longer queue, sure, but not a limited ban list. If you've played any game like DOTA or Rainbow 6 Siege, you can ban characters as well, does that also 'stop people using the content they paid for', not quite. Delays, maybe, but not a hard prevention. Pre-bans make it much better, because it would only put you in a lobby with someone who isn't going to ban your character mid selection process anyways.
@Crowman said:
No.
If you seriously can't handle the chance that you will face against a killer you don't like, don't queue up as survivor. No reason to ruin matchmaking bc you feel entitled to picking your opponents
Ruin matchmaking bs you feel entitled to picking your opponents - Killers can currently lobby shop, and that is causing baby Killers to get autofilled against the sweat Killers who didn't want to face 1 P100. This would cause no new problems, and would reduce the amount of lower quality matches.
@AykDanroyd said:
Sorry I don't buy it. If there are no problems with the status quo then nobody would use it. And if they use it and want to wait, then what problem is that to you? As long as the killer(s) filtered out are shown under the survivors in the lobby (so that it's transparent to fellow survivors) if you are in one with people you know, you can choose to leave that lobby if you'd rather not wait. And if there are as many people playing the game as they would like us to think, it should have a minimal effect. During the days the queue times are small anyway.
What you're saying would only happen if it ever comes to a time where killer players are all only using 1 or 2 killers, and that would be a problem with the game, nothing else. At that point people will stop playing the game because every match will be more or less the same and might as well play another game that also only has a handful of killers to play against.
Or if a new killer that almost everyone is using for a while is being filtered because survivors hate or have gotten sick of playing against that killer, it would be up to each individual survivor player to decide what they would rather do, wait a lot longer to play against other killers or say screw it and play against that killer anyway (i.e. not using the filter). So it's a freedom of choice and I'm all for that as everyone should be. What's better shorter match times or getting into a match where someone DC's almost immediately or kills themself on 1st hook which screws everything up for other players?
Killer Players only playing 1 or 2 Killers - Well if some people are to be believed that is currently the issue with Wesker. I know Wesker is picked significantly more often than the average, but luckily I don't think my matches reach the 20% some people have claimed.
New Killer - Yeah it should probably be disabled (like the map repeat prevention when a new map comes out) during the first week of new Killers.
@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3536636#Comment_3536636
You and your buddy saying Killer is easy does not make you arbiters of that question. You would need to demonstrate the majority of Killer players is in the top half of the MMR range, a hard claim to demonstrate. Pounding your chest regarding your skill in this game has not effect on me.
All of this from me just using your freedom argument back against you.
And what you are saying still doesn't negate the need for a filter idea.
That's true, people may indeed feel a need for a filter for Killer. And indeed, pointing out the flaws as man people have in such a system does not quell that need either. if you are tired of facing xenos nothing else can help.
However that's is why I turned your 'freedom of choice' argument back on you, there are many Killers who are equally tired and some even more so tired of certain perks, but nobody is rushing bHVR to implement relief from those, so why would Killers be any different? They are all tired, but sometimes you just cant have relief.
You would need to demonstrate the majority of Killer players is in the top half of the MMR range - Ok top half is 50%, so by default, 50% have to be there! There we go, we've proven the majority of Killers are in the top half! (Ok maybe a percentage point off, but good enough! Sorry I just found this part funny.)
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@Slan said:
I have played xeno and what you said is wrong. Correctly-placed turrets are effective as heck, but people tend to place them on tunnel exits instead of strategic places.
You have very different definitions than most people, but you aren't technically wrong if we look at things from a certain point of view. An add-onless Xeno in the worst case scenario, that is running parallel to a turret they didn't know existed, must react (.25s visual average), walk towards the turret (10m range - 5.2m distance to be within 4.8m tail range, taking ~1.13s) and whip en route. That takes 1.38s if you have average reaction speed. It takes 1.5s to be broken out of power when you have no add-ons. That means every Xeno will destroy turrets in the worst scenario for them when they want to break them, with an exception only if they have reaction speeds 50% slower than the average human (gamers even have faster reactions than the average human, so that's a pretty tall order). So yes, a correctly placed turret is effective in forcing an M2 to break the turret, which doesn't kick Xeno out of power, but you bought 3s whip CD for yourself! Oh wait, the whip cooldown doesn't (meaningfully) slow down Xeno... huh. So what you told us was true, from a certain point of view!
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@jesterkind said:
There are reasons someone might be doing a totem that may not be even wasting time at all, let alone throwing. I myself do totems because I run Inner Healing, which means I'm setting up not needing a teammate to heal me later on, which means I can be healthy for a clutch save or to waste more time in a chase at crucial moments.
Speaking of, uh, healing? You should be healing, that's not throwing. Unless you mean using Self-Care to heal themselves without something like Botany to back it up, which is a bit more reasonable of a critique. If you mean healing teammates at all, though, that's something you should be doing.
Don't get me wrong, solo queue has always had and will always have the problem of teammates that crouch in a corner instead of doing anything productive at all, but I think it's very easy to fall into the mindset of "Not being on generators at all times = throwing", which is not only not accurate, it's a mindset that'll lead you to optimise all the fun out of your matches. The thing that loses you matches is teammates who do nothing, not teammates that do side objectives as well.
I don't think most people call doing a singular totem throwing. Its just when you can see on the HUD they did 2-3 totems in a row before a single injury or other icon popping up that people will call them a troll/throwing.
The other instance is when you see someone in the basement for a chest while you are on hook. That is undefendable beyond tomes, but a tome asking you to throw is a tome asking you to throw. If all the gens are popped, and the gates are prepped, idc do what you want. But if you don't even tap the gate adjacent to our final gen for a NWO check, when I run off the final gen early for a hook save only to take chase, I'm going to say you threw the game when I activate NWO myself 2 minutes later.
@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3536115#Comment_3536115
Wait, they made the rainbow crow an icon now? When was that a thing?
(Yes I know this is offtopic, Ive just never seen it before until now.)
The new Community Coordinator (or some such specific title I forget) announced their arrival, and they added a bunch of forum icons for missing Killers/Survivors and more. So make sure to thank them if you see them around on the forums and you like the new profile pics.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3536596#Comment_3536596
I might have misjudged your take on this idea, compared to OPs first description but since its about debateable hits from whos perspective I have to assume you verify it with the Survivor. If that is correct please say so.
P1 - I drew a picture so I was trying to make it as simple and clear as possible. Survivor/Server/Killer all know different things. The Server knows in the Laggy Killer left picture that the Survivor has long rounded the corner, so the only 'extra' information is correcting the Killer's false information of the Survivor, by saying that they are deep wounded instead of downed. The Server knows in the Laggy Survivor right picture that the Survivor didn't round the corner before the Killer landed the hit, so there is no 'extra' information whatsoever being sent.
the scenario you describe here is validating with the Server, not the Survivor. You are describing the current system with extra deep wound system. That wont improve anything regarding what looks like hits and what don't which is what this thread is about. This will improve nothing since people will still get pissed off if they downed or get deep wounded.
Unironically we don't have "debateable distance", debateable from whos perspective or details on the type of deep wound.
which also is a lot of work for problem that happens how often?
P2 - The Killer never received a hit verification to begin with. My understanding is the game 'predicts' the inputs, so an M1 downs the Survivor on your screen, then when they teleport 2-3m afterward it was their actual location before the hit landed. This is the current situation where the server updates the Killer's game client with the correct information from the 'predicted' information. This would be a similar update of correct from 'predicted' information with a down around a corner being converted to a Deep Wound. It shouldn't use anything that isn't already being done.
Killer does receive hit verification, it is what starts the wipe animation. The Killer also sends the hit to the server for verification. Even if we ignore verifying with the Survivor we still have the same problems of hits that don't look like they should and then some of them with deep wound. That would be pointless.
The way this sounds to me is that you are saying in order for anyone to have an opinion about this hobby,
I never told you cant have an opinion, but here on the forum we give feedback on each other's ideas. You gotta be able to show and argue why your opinion is the way it is and engage with feedback. Im doing the same right now. You asked me about how to learn more about how networking, servers, etc works and I answered, I'm not asking you to learn it. You said yourself you didn't know how it works. If you are too busy to learn it, then don't. I'm not your mom.
I'm also not saying you cant suggest something, but I'm going to ask you how it would work. If there are bad answers or no answers ofc Im going to point that out. I get some people dont like to be challenged on the ideas they have, but as long as its a discussion is gonna happen.
But just to make sure you dont feel bad in anyway, I'm not trying to be snide to you. Sorry if I was too blunt, ill try harder.
My take has always been on the server's perspective. Currently laggy Killers are only 'validated' at pallets. Some Killers are also not given sufficient servers in their area. I don't want to punish a Killer because of where they live, just if they VPN for the current 'lagvantage' system that we have. That's why I only recommend the equivalent of 1 extra health state. When I'm talking about BS/laggy hits, I'm talking about the ones that we've all had, and also seen in (insert content creator here)'s weekly compilation.
How often - When I worked night-shift, it was literally every day off. At nights, you all too frequently get people from shall we say, an 'extended' search range. And by that I mean 8 timezones over from only a specific nation presumably VPNing over an entire ocean. So basically as long as you play after midnight in your own timezone you will probably get garbo laggy matches until about 5am minimum. There are also roughly half the matches at night, so you could argue an extreme case of 10% of all matches this would help. Which isn't a lot, but at the same time is very common for how frustrating it can be.
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@Reinami said:
We disagree on toxicity
- Slugging a survivor and bleeding them out for 4 minutes
- Sometimes this can't be helped. At least once or twice a day, i get someone who is the last survivor, all the other survivors are dead, and they crawl to a corner making them unhookable. So, now i risk leaving them, looking for the hatch, and maybe they find it. Or i pick them up, let them wiggle off, and look for the hatch. The only way to make sure i get them at that point, is to let them bleed out.
- Camping and tunneling on purpose to be toxic (Camping and tunneling isn't always toxic)
- Camping and tunneling, even on purpose, is not toxic. Sometimes camping and tunneling are the most effective strategies to win a game. And if that is the case, you should not be getting mad at the player for employing it, you should be mad at the devs for allowing it.
- T-bagging in the exit gate and or doing rushed actions to get the killers attention when they've lost
- I agree with you on this one, but mostly because its just wasting everyone's time.
- Hitting on hook (This depends on the context)
- Again, context is important, but several survivors have extremely loud screams and i hit them to stop it.
- Being nasty in the end game chat
- This one i agree with you.
You need to stop thinking that actions someone is doing in the game is "toxic" using a strategy to win, even if you don't like it, is not toxic. It is playing to win. And if you think camping or tunneling is "toxic" then you are by definition a "scrub" I don't mean that in a derogatory sense, but in a definitional sense. I suggest reading the free e-book by game designer David Sirlin, "Playing to Win", https://www.sirlin.net/ptw here is in excerpt from that book.
The derogatory term “scrub” means several different things. One definition is someone (especially a game player) who is not good at something (especially a game). By this definition, we all start out as scrubs, and there is certainly no shame in that. I mean the term differently, though. A scrub is a player who is handicapped by self-imposed rules that the game knows nothing about. A scrub does not play to win.
Now, everyone begins as a poor player—it takes time to learn a game to get to a point where you know what you’re doing. There is the mistaken notion, though, that by merely continuing to play or “learn” the game, one can become a top player. In reality, the “scrub” has many more mental obstacles to overcome than anything actually going on during the game. The scrub has lost the game even before it starts. He’s lost the game even before deciding which game to play. His problem? He does not play to win.
The scrub would take great issue with this statement for he usually believes that he is playing to win, but he is bound up by an intricate construct of fictitious rules that prevents him from ever truly competing. These made-up rules vary from game to game, of course, but their character remains constant. Let’s take a fighting game off of which I’ve made my gaming career: Street Fighter.
In Street Fighter, the scrub labels a wide variety of tactics and situations “cheap.” This “cheapness” is truly the mantra of the scrub. Performing a throw on someone is often called cheap. A throw is a special kind of move that grabs an opponent and damages him, even when the opponent is defending against all other kinds of attacks. The entire purpose of the throw is to be able to damage an opponent who sits and blocks and doesn’t attack. As far as the game is concerned, throwing is an integral part of the design—it’s meant to be there—yet the scrub has constructed his own set of principles in his mind that state he should be totally impervious to all attacks while blocking. The scrub thinks of blocking as a kind of magic shield that will protect him indefinitely. Why? Exploring the reasoning is futile since the notion is ridiculous from the start.
You will not see a classic scrub throw his opponent five times in a row. But why not? What if doing so is strategically the sequence of moves that optimizes his chances of winning? Here we’ve encountered our first clash: the scrub is only willing to play to win within his own made-up mental set of rules. These rules can be staggeringly arbitrary. If you beat a scrub by throwing projectile attacks at him, keeping your distance and preventing him from getting near you—that’s cheap. If you throw him repeatedly, that’s cheap, too. We’ve covered that one. If you block for fifty seconds doing no moves, that’s cheap. Nearly anything you do that ends up making you win is a prime candidate for being called cheap. Street Fighter was just one example; I could have picked any competitive game at all.
Doing one move or sequence over and over and over is a tactic close to my heart that often elicits the call of the scrub. This goes right to the heart of the matter: why can the scrub not defeat something so obvious and telegraphed as a single move done over and over? Is he such a poor player that he can’t counter that move? And if the move is, for whatever reason, extremely difficult to counter, then wouldn’t I be a fool for not using that move? The first step in becoming a top player is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning. That is true by definition of playing to win. The game knows no rules of “honor” or of “cheapness.” The game only knows winning and losing.
A common call of the scrub is to cry that the kind of play in which one tries to win at all costs is “boring” or “not fun.” Who knows what objective the scrub has, but we know his objective is not truly to win. Yours is. Your objective is good and right and true, and let no one tell you otherwise. You have the power to dispatch those who would tell you otherwise, anyway. Simply beat them.
This misses a key element of playing games that is unfortunately ignored all too common, the human or social element. People play games to have fun. Some people have fun predominantly by winning. People don't have fun being treated like trash or having their time wasted. If people are playing for the $5 Subway giftcard, then by all means, play exclusively to win. The problem is playing so 'sweaty' in normal public matches, and not only in tournaments and private matches.
When you play Street Fighter and Joey keeps doing the same unfun stuff. You stop playing with him. When he says "wanna come over tonight and play some Street Fighter" you reply "not if you are going to play like an expletive". Then he either understands that you don't have fun interacting in that particular fashion, and you go back to having fun playing Street Fighter, or you never play it again with Joey. When the interactions are online and there are not matchmaking bans against certain players, non-interaction becomes the response. The people Kobe attempt on first hook, or hard DC to 'go next' instead. That is the online equivalent of asking your friend to "not play like an expletive". This is so simple, it is understood by children in elementary/grade school. They see Joey acting like "a poop head" and stop playing with him. It is then on Joey to stop acting like that, or risk being intentionally excluded.
This can be fixed by a multitude of ways. One is the matchmaking ban I alluded to. Another is a deliberately separate ranked queue, where everyone understands 'anything goes'. The problem with DBD is that it currently forces everyone into a ranked queue, as MMR is not optional. The final method of 'fixing' the problem is to no longer play the game. If the final method is the main method, then the game bleeds players, and the match quality drops immensely, which snowballs into more players leaving the game and match quality dropping further. Some people have the social presence and knowledge to have learned not to act like Joey, and some people never learn that lesson even after being excluded previously for doing exactly the same conceptual thing. The Joey's cause that bleedout of the playerbase, so it is on the Devs to put forth the mechanical method of dealing with Joeys (such as surrender during dying state), or the remaining players to exclude/train the Joeys to be less antisocial (endgame chat).
Also the use of 'scrub' was intended to be someone so bad at fighting games (or any game for that matter), that they button mash randomly as if they were 'scrubbing' the controller. He may have redefined it for his book, but that doesn't change the origin of the term.
- Slugging a survivor and bleeding them out for 4 minutes
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3536323#Comment_3536323
Hit/miss back and forth reply section 1 - I'm sorry but the way you describe it would mean it would take no extra steps or processes still. In the picture the Server knew the Survivor was at location 'S' when the laggy Killer sent the hit at location 'H'.
You need to explain that way better. You already told me you dont fully understand the mechanical side of online interactions, yet you are trying to say it still wont take more steps than the current system, like do you know or do you not know?
Even when there were super laggy hits for normal Killer feedback it took no longer than .5s, it was just the disconnected info that was confusing. The Killer is still going to have to round the corner or vault the window to pick up the Survivor, so the time spent reaching the Survivor on the ground would update to show Deep Wound and scratch marks and a standing Survivor on the Killers screen long before it would matter outside of super specific snowballing situations.
Its not acceptable to give the Killer a hit verification from the server and then remove it when verification from the survivor arrives. if I see the Survivor go down and then go back up glowing white, ill be on the forum complaining about that right away so that wont work at all.
where is the information available?
You need to get down to your local library and start with learning networks and how Server communication works. This is computer deepdive, I have no formal education in that myself but I have done Server communication as school projects. then ofc game design to understand what info is required to be sent.
P1 - I drew a picture so I was trying to make it as simple and clear as possible. Survivor/Server/Killer all know different things. The Server knows in the Laggy Killer left picture that the Survivor has long rounded the corner, so the only 'extra' information is correcting the Killer's false information of the Survivor, by saying that they are deep wounded instead of downed. The Server knows in the Laggy Survivor right picture that the Survivor didn't round the corner before the Killer landed the hit, so there is no 'extra' information whatsoever being sent.
P2 - The Killer never received a hit verification to begin with. My understanding is the game 'predicts' the inputs, so an M1 downs the Survivor on your screen, then when they teleport 2-3m afterward it was their actual location before the hit landed. This is the current situation where the server updates the Killer's game client with the correct information from the 'predicted' information. This would be a similar update of correct from 'predicted' information with a down around a corner being converted to a Deep Wound. It shouldn't use anything that isn't already being done.
P3 - The way this sounds to me is that you are saying in order for anyone to have an opinion about this hobby, they need to spend even more time beyond learning about the basic game mechanics/reading on the wiki, playing the game, working for survival(+commute time), cooking food, exercising to stay healthy, taking care of family, cleaning the living space, keeping up with car/home maintenance, and only then spending whatever spare time remains on studying the network infrastructure of the game that may or may not use the specific method you end up researching. I'm sorry, but that doesn't sound feasible for the majority of people. I am just trying to suggest things from what already exists for the most part. That doesn't seem unreasonable to make suggestions based on existing mechanics/functionality.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3536326#Comment_3536326
Just because your teammates are sometimes bad, doesn't mean they should make your role overpowered to compensate for it. The problem there is your bad teammates. Name any other competitive team-based game, where having bad teammates means you should win.
You must be responding to something or someone else because asking for counterplay to exist is not asking to be overpowered.
I'm not saying you should win because you have bad teammates, I'm saying you should have a chance. If I play a team deathmatch shooter and my teammate feeds the enemy 25 of the 50 kills to win, I can still not die and kill the opponents faster to reach 50 first. The chance currently doesn't (feel like it) exist(s) for Xeno.
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3536352#Comment_3536352
Lol, RIGHT, you move at full speed during the .2 windup, NOT at 6.9 meters per second. Which is way faster. So the math is still correct. And that is exactly my point, you can lunge through obstacles. Like pallets and windows, and during those you are animation locked anyway, so again, the point is that you can't dodge it anyway.
You can also "Threaten a hit" in stun attempts with m1, as long as you don't lunge, your lingering hitbox will hit them even if they pallet stun you. The point is, the tail is basically a glorified m1, that can go over pallets and windows, where you are animation locked anyway. So complaining about it "not being reactable" is pointless, because if you can be hit by the tail, you are also m1able (at least you will be .6 seconds later, barely even perceivable), and you can't "dodge an m1" unless the autoaim decides to screw the killer over for some reason.
I'd argue that the turrets shouldn't exist TBH, because the tail attack isn't powerful to warrant it.
You are ignoring the point on the first paragraph. You can only get hit if they were too close to begin with for M1. Not the case for Xeno M2.
M1 threatening a hit is an even chance of Killer and Survivor. If Surv greeds, Killer wins on disrespect, loses on respect. If Surv drops, Killer loses on disrespect, wins on respect. Xeno tail changes the formula to allow for a win on respect in both scenarios. If they greed then you simply respect, then get the M2 during the rotation if the M1 lunge is too far.
I'd be fine with turrets not existing back at Xeno's PTB values and TR while the Xeno is underground. But the power is too oppressive to not have a counter, and currently there is no counter other than not playing/going next. That is poor design. It shouldn't be that way.
This is all assuming you aren't just an elaborate troll. It seems very likely since you consider a Killer having counterplay to make Survivor OP.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3535908#Comment_3535908
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3535911#Comment_3535911
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3535913#Comment_3535913
Here's a better question that nobody thought to ask. WHY should it be reactable?
Here is some math for you.
A killer's lunge makes them move at 6.9 m/s for 0.9 seconds, and their hitbox extends out by about 1 meter. In 0.9 seconds, a survivor can move 3.6 meters. This means that the killer's max range to hit that lunge from a running survivor is 3.61 meters.
The tail attack has a 0.2 second windup, during this time a survivor can move 0.8 meters. It has a 4.8 meter range. This means that the killer needs to be 4 meters away from them to hit them. The difference between 40 meters and 3.61 meters in a chase, is literally .66 seconds, almost exactly. It is 0.39 meters. And the differences in movement speed between a survivor and killer is 0.6 meters per second.
So the tail attack is "saving" the killer, less than a second in a chase. While also having a smaller hitbox, and is much easier to miss and mess up the attack.
So again i ask, WHY should it be reactable? It isn't much different in speed and distance and timing than a normal killer lunge. Where the tail gets its power, is that it can hit over and through things, like windows, and pallets. Which, if you are doing that, you aren't able to dodge anyway because you are stuck in an animation.
EDIT: I was wrong, the range is actually 4.8 meters, not 5, making my point even more.
If turrets are reactable to break, the tail needs to be reactable to dodge. Both circumstances need to be linked. If you can't dodge, then the turret shouldn't be reaction breakable and always burn Xeno out of power. It takes ~15s to get a turret placed and back on the gen, and currently all that does is give you slightly more pre-run time at the best case scenario (against a Xeno who has played before).
The tail attack doesn't root Xeno, you can move at full speed during the .2s windup, so part of the math is wrong. But the point the math section is missing, is that lunging can only work under a fixed distance, and can't go through obstacles, such as walls and pallet stuns. Xeno tail can hit over windows/pallets, as well as threaten a hit against stun attempts, so it makes all points of safety unsafe if within range. Given that the tunnels put you right on top of gens, that isn't exactly a hard proposition to get within range in the first place.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3536258#Comment_3536258
That is how survivors work. Survivors are 4 people, if they work together well, they win, if they don't, they lose. That is literally how the survivor role is designed. If the game was "balanced" in a 1v1, the killer would never win.
That's not at all how Survivor works. When you get average soloq Survivors you still have a chance if someone goofs off assuming the remaining 3 have skill. It is still possible to carry bad teammates who do all 5 totems and open all the chests. What I am saying is Xeno provides no chance unless everyone is worried about macro perfection, and nothing less. At the very least that is what it feels like. Even then, when someone still attempting that macro perfection gets turret grab free-hit, you can't blame them for Xeno's poor design. No other Killer lies the entire burden on macro gameplay other than so-called 'no-life' Nurses who never fail their blinks and reads on Survivor pathing.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3536274#Comment_3536274
Now I don't fully understand the mechanical side of online interactions. You keep saying it would add extra packets, but my understanding is the game is always sending those same packets of where the Killer and Survivor are to the server. It wouldn't be sending extra packets that it isn't already sending.
Yes the game ALREADY SENDS LOCATION DATA that is true,
but for your system to work it needs to send a hit attack to the Survivor, who then needs to send it back to server and then the Server sends that info back to the Killer.
It would use the already available information.
No its not using already sent info, cause we are NOT PREDICTING when the nearby Killer is hitting for the survivor and if we did it would be wrong. The attack packet is something else than location packet. Like I told you three times now, it would create a huge chain for that specific attack. Its a huge waste of packet data, which costs money btw. but it will make that attack take AGES and the validation will only arrive seconds later for the Killer.
Now I don't fully understand the mechanical side of online interactions.
Yes you really need to get on that, it would help you understand why adding rules to a game that needs a packet to visit 4 places instead of 1 is a bad idea. 4 times as bad.
Hit/miss back and forth reply section 1 - I'm sorry but the way you describe it would mean it would take no extra steps or processes still. In the picture the Server knew the Survivor was at location 'S' when the laggy Killer sent the hit at location 'H'.
It would take AGES to validate reply section 2 - Even when there were super laggy hits for normal Killer feedback it took no longer than .5s, it was just the disconnected info that was confusing. The Killer is still going to have to round the corner or vault the window to pick up the Survivor, so the time spent reaching the Survivor on the ground would update to show Deep Wound and scratch marks and a standing Survivor on the Killers screen long before it would matter outside of super specific snowballing situations.
'Get on that' reply section 3 - Assuming very generously that this isn't a needlessly rude dismissal, where is the information available? Nothing in the game describes the latency mechanics. I haven't seen anything on the wiki describing their internet based architecture. I also have seen no BHVR posting describing in detail the (likely) software engineering Masters degree level of information required. The most information I've had was a talk I attended in person describing how the designers of MAG (for the PS3) allowed for nearly 300 (256 to be fair, but the speaker said though it was frequently 300 if the PS3 would have allowed it) people to interact on a single server without significantly noticeable lag, at least less noticeable compared to the 5 player servers DBD has access to.
Edit: Grammar spend -> spent
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3536230#Comment_3536230
What else is the point of the server if not to determine who deserves to win in a scenario of direct competition?!?!
The point of the Server is to run a fair game that is enjoyable to play, the Point of the Server isn't to play Lawyer, even tho it could if everybody had direct connection. But we don't its all on ms, its gonna take a while. That is why sending unnecessary packets is counter productive.
If optimized, this process only runs while the Survivor is Injured and not Deep Wounded. It doesn't need to check while Healthy, and doesn't need to check while Deep Wounded. It doesn't prevent the laggy Killer from dealing damage altogether, it just delays the Survivor's death in the case of excessive lag.
The way you present it its already unnecessary, if the laggy killer cant deal damage anyway then how do you get to the injured state? Why not just skip the steps of providing extra validation for a down, if the first hit is accepted anyway. The Survivor in question could equally be mad about the first hit aswell, anyone who is mad about hits like that want things to fair, but we can only keep things as fair as the technology can allow us.
Not only would making certain hits have a big thick bottleneck on them by annoying to play with because hits would be inconsistent, but dodging them would also depends the Survivors injured state.
I mean sure its interesting and hopeful to think about, but the moment you get down to it, less is better for the game overall.
We had Killer as the host previously. That was (in laggy matches) not a fair game that was enjoyable to play. The server saying "hey that wasn't a valid hit, but you get Deep Wound on them anyways" most certainly would make it more fair and enjoyable to play.
I'm not sure we are firing on the same cylinders. Laggy Killers currently can always deal damage on Live, (especially when they shouldn't) and the only time they are denied a hit is if it was pallet validation. In my little picture, the Killer currently always deals damage at that corner, and would only check for validation if it were a downing hit (exposed/instadown when healthy, any damage when injured). This makes it so corner/window hits apply that same pallet validation, but to a lesser extent. This proposal would limit BS hits, but not entirely prevent them.
Now I don't fully understand the mechanical side of online interactions. You keep saying it would add extra packets, but my understanding is the game is always sending those same packets of where the Killer and Survivor are to the server. It wouldn't be sending extra packets that it isn't already sending. It would use the already available information. The only case would be when laggy Killer's game interpreted a hit as a down, but the server said back "nuh uh, that was lag, you only get Deep Wound".
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'Toxicity' is supported by the gameplay elements. (I only consider no-agency scenarios as 'toxic', but even then I wouldn't use that word.) In the early Halo days, the most toxic you could be was a 1-2s teabag on the person you killed before they respawn, but you were still open to being killed by someone else in that time frame. In DBD, you can 4 minute bleedout because there is no surrender option. Even being facecamped still gives you the option to kobe/give-up on hook, so the choice is between best for you (go next) or best for your team (stay on hook while they pump gens).
Teabagging after a pallet loses time in chase that could be used to make distance, and at the exit gates can be forced out. The Killer still has agency. Hitting on hook opens the Survivor up to be rescued without a free hit on their rescuer. Those circumstances largely disadvantage the 'toxic' player in order to do.
Tunneling could have DS reverted to 5s, and is bizarre to me they (BHVR) ever thought the lack of anti-tunnel wouldn't lead to any path other than more tunneling.
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3536225#Comment_3536225
You're still missing my point. It doesn't MATTER if you have distance on him or not, he can simply close it while his tentacle is pulled up. No matter what you do, you lose. To use your example: Nemesis enters Shack with his tentacle pulled up towards the window, you don't take the window, he continues walking towards you with his whip pulled up. You swerve towards the pallet, he zones you away from the window and pushes you towards the pallet. Either you run through the pallet and get hit, or you walk away from it, and he can simply cancel power and M1 before you make either the pallet or the window. The killers shouldn't have similar charge/open times, if that's your point. They're different killers, and their powers are different, and should have different values.
He can't close distance while the Tentacle is pulled up, he can only lose or tie in distance. If he is zoning then yes he can close the distance, but at the cost of a free escape if he misses the whip, or cancels it. If in Shack you play doe-si-doe with him in-between the window and Pallet. If he drops the tentacle, you take the closer of a medium vault at window or drop the pallet. You as Survivor (on average) spent .25s visual reacting, .9s Medium vaulting (or shorter dropping the pallet), so he is left with a max of .35s to do nothing while you took the escape route.
I don't think Killers should all be normalized to the exact same timers, but they should be normalized to be in the realm of fair counterplay. Huntress slows to 3.08 with a hatchet drawn, Nemmy slows to 3.8/4.0, Demo Slows to 3.86. Huntress has a 2s wind down CD, Nemmy has a 1.5s wind down CD, Demo has a .45s wind down CD. Each are for the most part fair in their implementations. Xeno is not. That is the issue. Edit: Demo's wind down of .45s is the least fair of those 3 Killer's examples, but with the needless nerf to his Iri add-on, I'd leave it in for now.
@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3536225#Comment_3536225
Singularity is not dominating and is also a killer nobody plays. Also it takes far longer than 2s for Singularity to reset after an EMP.
It's very clear you just want an "easy win" button.
I can't speak for everyone else, I can only speak for myself. I won 3 games the other day at 5 gens (as Sing while cleaning up his tomes) because the Survivors were so outclassed by the continuous pressure I was able to output with a good Lethal Pursuer and multiple goo-tags/injuries early.
As far as longer than 2s to retag, I can tell for sure you haven't played him because that is about exactly how long it takes other than on maps like Lerys (assuming you have skill as Sing). I even recommended QoL buffs for him to smooth out the new player experience so more people could play and understand him. When I play him he actually feels like I need skill to utilize him, unlike many others among the cast that other people would make that claim for.
I have an "easy win" button, 2 in fact, they are Blight and Nurse (Spirit too before I had too heavy of hearing damage). When I want to win without trying, I use them. As Survivor, I just want to complete my tomes without wanting to tear my hair out from unenjoyable circumstances. I completed my tomes, so I'm not playing DBD in soloq until they 'fix' Xeno.
The problem with Xeno, is the Survivor sided gameplay is exclusively macro oriented. Every member of the team has to be doing the exact correct thing at all times, or you lose (assuming it isn't a baby Xeno). Soloq means you have an average of 1.5 Survivors (that aren't you) NOT doing that, and an average of a third of those (original 1.5, so .5 average) players are actively hurting the team instead. You can't win in chase with the mythical 372 gen chase because you outplayed the Killer at every loop. You will go down, so you can only macro play to delay how long it takes, and how far from hook you can get yourself downed. This is why I refer to Xeno as a boring flowchart Killer, because you can only pick the longest flowchart path (or some people are taking the shortest to go next) if you want to go against them.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3536206#Comment_3536206
So that's is a Yes, you prefer to bottleneck the server verifying every single hit or near windows. I dont know why you say soft validation, its either validation or not or something else. Either way you are sending 6 more packets around to laggy players which would just increase the problem since now they have to verify hits for deep wounds aswell.
You wanna start by explaining how sending more packets back and forth between laggy players (increasing the lag) is gonna improve anything even if it applies deep wound?
Bottleneck the server? What else is the point of the server if not to determine who deserves to win in a scenario of direct competiton?!?! To check how progressed the gen is? You can have a laggy gen moment as Surv if we are checking if the Killer deserved to hit your teammate.
I call it soft-validation, because a laggy Killer can still get a down under the proposed system. It takes 3 lag hits instead of the normal 2 non-laggy hits. Healthy -> Injured -> Dying to now become Healthy -> Injured -> Deep Wound -> Dying. If optimized, this process only runs while the Survivor is Injured and not Deep Wounded. It doesn't need to check while Healthy, and doesn't need to check while Deep Wounded. It doesn't prevent the laggy Killer from dealing damage altogether, it just delays the Survivor's death in the case of excessive lag.
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3536197#Comment_3536197
We saw what happened when survivors have free access to completely remove a killer's power with singularity. Turrets do not need to be able to consistently break the killer out of their power. Providing distance alone against a killer who lacks any meaningful way to close the gap during a chase is huge enough as it is.
Yeah, Singularity dominates. Wait, have you played him? I played him a bunch and the only matches you lose as him are the matches you were going to lose regardless. Plus you are acting like Singularity can't spend 2s to reapply the goo. The Survivor needs to waste 2s in an item grab animation for you to spend closing the distance and getting a free hit if they de-goo themself.
@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3536197#Comment_3536197
Xeno doesn't "hold" power at 4.6 any more than Nemesis holds his tentacle at 4.6. He is ABLE to use his power at 4.6 (so is almost every other killer in the game).
You're dodging my point. Nemesis can hold his power (at the same speed as survivors even, in T3). It's meaningless if you can dodge it on reaction, because he can pull it up and force you into a lose-lose: either you get hit and get the vault/pallet, or you swerve out and get zoned away from it, he bodyblocks, and gets the hit. It's literally the same situation for both.
Xeno presses the button and .2s later the hitbox spawns while still moving at 4.6. Nemmy has to hold M2 for .35s, slowing down, then he can tap M1 to start spawning the hitboxes. (I haven't been including the Attack Open time, but I believe this is how long after the whip is prepared and you hit M1 that you need to wait before the Attack Hit time has the hitboxes linger. I don't know for certain though. If that is the case then technically Nemmy has a .6s minimum windup. But since I don't know, I'm sticking with the .35s because it is more favorable to your point.)
I'm not trying to dodge your point, I don't understand the point you are making. If he is close enough to bodyblock, then he was close enough to M1 without needing to wind up the whip to begin with. Otherwise he has too much distance to cover. In non-filler pallet loops you can take the opposite of the window or pallet in the cancellation cool-down. Eg. Shack you can take the pallet instead of the window, or Jungle Gyms at the window can take the pallet instead. This basically only applies to hyper-zoned filler pallets, but even Nemmy has a similar problem at those as Huntress, as he has to round the loop and commit to the tentacle or the hold-W at the pallet each rotation. Even if Nemmy threatens a whip every rotation, he slows to 3.8/4.0 for .35s, and 4.2 for 1.5s, losing .81/.88m each threaten, and since it is a rounded loop with a Survivor smaller hitbox this distance is compounded. Also this .88 is closed in about 1 and a half seconds, you in a rounded loop you still lose ~1.5s of distance on chasing the Survivor by threatening the whip.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3536164#Comment_3536164
Yeah but how would you do it any other way?
Should we want the Killer to send the signal for hitting the survivor to the server and then the Server to send the signal to the survivor to check if it hits, then send the signal back to the Server and then back to the Killer? No way, that's a bottle neck.
There is no way you can check with the Survivor without making things awfully slow, so its either update your position to the Server or you are Dead by Daylight.
If these wall/windows had soft-validation similar to like OP suggests, then that would apply a Deep-Wound when injured, and presumably old Stab-Wounds study where a Deep-Wounded hit would then be a down (as it would drain the remaining Deep Wound bar). Just like how pallets test Survivor sent a stun signal to server, and Killer send a hit signal to server to determine stun/hit, the same would be done with windows/corners. If the Survivor sends a location ping out of the hit-zone, and the Killer sends a hit within the hit-zone, the server would read a laggy Killer as a deep wound, and a laggy Survivor as a normal hit. This lets Killers who live in bad areas/far from their region's server still play the game, but they have to still get legit shots/hits.
MS Paint simple mockup done below.
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3536179#Comment_3536179
And again, Nemmy can hold his power, Xeno can't. Their powers are not created equal. The slowdown bug should be fixed but that's it.
And when holding power Nemmy is slowed to 3.8 or 4.0. You are skirting the issue. Xeno gets to 'hold power' at 4.6. If Xeno's power is not created equal in the sense it can be knocked out of power, then the power shouldn't be designed around a worst case scenario (add-onless and unaware of turret location) for Xeno to reliably break the turret, and only failing at that if they are 50% slower at reactions than the average human. Or put another way, if Xeno can be broken out of power, he should be designed to consistently be broken out of power (edit: when the counterplay is utilized). It isn't like crawling in the tunnels for 5s to camp the gen or head to another gen is that big of an ask at 18m/s.
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@Elik said:
everyone knows that kinda no one plays this killer + has some of the lowest kill rates as far as I know.
This killer definitely isnt weak but hes so much effort to play and so easily countered by one item that spawns infinitely on the map which makes playing him just way too frustrating
So will we see some changes or something?
When people say "X Killer takes skill to play", Singularity is the poster child. I've frequently said on the forums across posts that "X Killer takes skill to play" actually means "it takes longer to learn how to ride the bike of this Killer", and that is very much the case as well. You have to learn how best to utilize his kit, while dealing with the frustrating aspects as well. His power level shouldn't necessarily be touched, and just give him QoL improvements to make more people willing to play Singularity, or remove those frustration points. (Another issue is that he yields far fewer results with much more effort than other 'takes skill to play' Killers like Nurse/Blight. I think that's fine, because he is so fun when you get him firing on all cylinders.)
A common complaint is how when you are tracking with a Biopod to apply the goo, then they step behind a twig for a milisecond and you have to start over. A QoL buff could be like Ghosty's Survivor sided reveal mechanic. It 'saves' the progress and only decays over time, not an instant reset to 0.
Another QoL buff could be the TP while running having a different button to alternatively activate, and be given a generous auto-aim when used this way. This way when you are chasing someone in the distance, but you keep tagging the walls right next to them, you can just hit the TP button instead. You wouldn't use this TP button if 2 Survs were on your screen and wanted to take the 0 autoaim place pod TP to choose your target.
If they were to iron out these frustration points I'm sure we'd get more people playing Sing. The main issue though is you have to swap perspective continuously, and that can be very disorienting for many players. As long as he is reliant on an actual skillset that some people are physiologically incapable or untrained in utilizing, he isn't going to be picked that much.
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3536149#Comment_3536149
Nemesis in T3 has no counterplay either. Every time he pulls up his tentacle, he moves at the same speed as survivors. If you lock to an animation, he gets the hit. If you don't, he continues chase. I fail to understand why people are still making a special exception for Xeno being able to do this somehow being unacceptable.
With the .35s windup you can reaction run sideways or back into the Killer where it is hard to aim (depending on how close Nemmy is, you chose which). With .17 average reaction time by sound cues, that gives you just barely enough time to do that. That is why people complained so loudly about when Nemmy's Tentacle is bugged silent, because that is his counterplay. If Nemmy misses, he has 75% slowdown for 2.5s (losing 8.625m) If Nemmy drops tentacle to go for the M1, the Survivor has 1.5s to take the vault or drop the pallet. There is also counterplay in denying T2 by intentionally getting infected by a Zombie if he is chasing you first. That sets his pallet break super speed much longer down the line.
If Xeno misses, allegedly it is supposed to go 2m/s for 3s, or lose 7.8m. The problem is when you play as Xeno, you can very much tell there is no slowdown (worth mentioning), and there only is a cooldown. People do complain about uncounterable Nemmy (bugged silent tentacle) and uncounterable Xeno, but not nearly as much complaints exists when you can counter them. (There will always be complaints about something, but I'm predominately talking about normal complaints, not fringe always existing complaints.)
I think the PTB values were fine for everything. It felt fine enough, and not too oppressive. The only issue remaining then is Xeno emerging from the tunnel while the Survivor is attempting to get a turret. Killer Instinct procs, so you can't hide, and you don't have a turret to warn/burn out of power. This problem falls to the logic that the counterplay shouldn't also be in turn countered by the normal play (like old-old Thana providing slowdown on healing as well as gens, and healing was the counterplay).
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@Emeal said:
What hits? Hits that look debateable on the Killer or the Survivor's end?
I mean isn't this why we have a Server? This is from 2019?
The problem is we have hit validation at pallets. That means if the Killer hit on their screen, but the Survivor stunned them, the server says whoever got their action first (less laggy) gets the favorable result. Windows have no such validation. Corners have no such validation. That is where lag hits are most common, and that is where lag hits are still a problem. When you go against a redbar VPN Killer, they swing absurdly early. Then when you get hit 5m from the window, you understand why. That's where you were on their screen, and the server would take that lag hit because there is no validation to verify "the Survivor was nowhere near the window, that should miss".
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@Seraphor said:
Why are we prentending 'reaction' is everything, when 'preempting' attacks are a far more common tactic, regardless of how fast the killer's attack comes out.
Killer's attack at certain predictable times, when the survivor is in a vulnerable place such as vaulting a window, or when their attack comes off cooldown, etc.
This works just as well for M1 attacks, it can work for the Tail spear as well.
Because like in the clip you posted, the Xeno can freely take an M1 for a guaranteed hit, so preventing a hit is solely on the Xeno to screw up. Feng was healthy, so even if you really wanted to apply the tail debuffs from add-ons, you could down her with the tail hit and injure her with the M1.
A Killer that moves at 4.2 but can phase through walls and is immune to pallet stuns will always get the hit on Survivors, so all it makes the match is a test of how macro efficient the Survivors are. That has no counterplay, that is no fun. That exaggerated circumstance is basically what Xeno is right now.
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@AykDanroyd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3535832#Comment_3535832
I don't like destroying baby survivors since I've seen too many friends buy the game who got that treatment and never played it again. It just turns them away from the game forever. Instead I'll terrorize them with 2 hooks each and lots of chases and downs but let them leave so they know what to expect from future killers. I even got some who only pressed W (or never looked behind them if on console) to look behind them to see what I was doing, so I think that was a plus. And since I play Twins a lot when I'm not playing Myers, I like getting them a little more used to a killer they don't normally see.
I get the problem. Its a lose-lose that MMR has forced us into. In the short run, they get a bad match, in the long run, they get much more bad matches. I've had to take the mercy killing approach in the hopes that it isn't a bad day for them and this would be the straw that breaks the camel's back. I would prefer 1 bad match over 20 in a row because I reach the soft-cap of MMR and couldn't fall back below it as a newbie.
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3535825#Comment_3535825
M2 has a better cooldown than M1, and also may inflict Mangled with an addon.
Yes, Xeno can force lose-lose situations on dropped pallets/windows. So can a lot of other killers. If you let him get that close, you already screwed up.
Also I just posted a different thread showcasing that it IS indeed possible to react to Xeno's tail.
As far as M2 having a better CD than M1, do you do the same and give up a free M1 hit in order to get the M2 hit on other Killers? The issue again rolls back around to Xeno's counterplay is on Xeno making a mistake, not the Survivor outplaying or even having a chance against them.
"If you let them get that close" - How can I not let them get that close when tunnels are available at every generator, and Xeno can simply emerge from a tunnel during the ~15s average it takes to set up a turret and get a free hit regardless. Xeno also gets footsteps to follow if I burn it out of power and it goes back into the tunnel to ignore the detriment of that.
Link to the thread? I've posted in multiple threads how it is mathematically impossible to react to the tail, and others in this thread (I believe Nirgendwohin did that here) have also done the math as well. The issue is not only that you need to use normal human reactions (.25s visual average, .17 audio average), but you also have to move the Survivor far enough to avoid the draggable hitbox as well. With visual times there is no time to react, and with sound, you have .03s or 30ms to react, and that basically means if the Killer has 30ms or more they get a free hit because they hit the Survivor on their screen, and we don't have hit validation except with pallet stuns. The post where someone showed if the Survivor attempts to read the Killer (on Borgo) showed a lose-lose with no possible valid option for the Survivor.
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@TheTom20 said:
I don't know whats going on but this is becoming a lot more regular going against killers who don't even get a single hook or very few hooks. I feel bad but what should i do let them have a few hits or sympathy hooks or just leave soon as possible?
Sadly, just like with when you play Killer against baby-Survs, the best thing you can do is mercy kill them, or gate escape as Survivor. Many Killers were the victim of 'Eruption Inflation' on their MMR, and you need to win against them to drop their MMR back to their actual skill level over time.
If you give them a free kill, their MMR will stay above their skill level, and they will continue to face people that far outclass them. On the other hand, if your Survivor MMR is deflated by too much soloq, you have to escape against them to raise it anyways. Both cases you should gate escape over any other option.
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3534445#Comment_3534445
Well, there was a 50/50 on whether Xeno prefires tail, in which case you would have won. You could have also ran into the pallet and back towards the killer instead of swerving out so early and predictably, and you may have forced a whiff. It's exceptionally hard to hit the tail at point blank.
But here's where you're going wrong: you're whining that you had maybe 3m of distance on the killer and got hit. Why do you feel like you were entitled to not get hit there? Against a Huntress, Wesker, Pyramid Head, Trickster, Nemesis, Slinger (and probably a few more), you get hit there no matter what (if they don't whiff). But when the new killer can hit you from outside M1 range, all of a sudden, we're outraged?
The problem is the Xeno has 0 need to pre-fire. They can wait until the point of no return (within the pallet boundaries) and tap M2 and never miss. So for a Survivor to play, that is reliant on the Xeno being a baby-Killer and not knowing how to play. If you run backwards enough to dodge a pre-fire, then they simply M1 you instead. Why would the Xeno M2 when they could M1?
The issue in general is Xeno is mathematically uncounterable. At vaults Xeno can M1 if you fake, and reaction M2 against even Resilience fast vaults. At undropped pallets the Xeno can M2 when they need to and walk through and M1 when they don't. Survivor winning against Xeno is on Xeno to fail, not a back and forth between both sides. That means it is entirely on turrets to prevent power to be fair. Unfortunately even without add-ons Xeno can reliably reaction M2 turrets before they can burnt Xeno out of power. So in loops Xeno is uncounterable, and the counter to the uncounterability isn't possible for Survivors to guarantee.
@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3535171#Comment_3535171
React faster lmao
Also average pings are 50ms, really? Use better ISP
If you live in America the ISPs have bribed (err sorry lobbied) the government to ensure they have a monopoly and provide substandard service with only 1 ISP per area. You can't use a better ISP.
Also react faster? Are you endorsing DCing to have a bot reaction speed instead of human? That's what it sounds like to me.
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Multiple reasons.
- Overuse: Too many people play him, so it gets boring/annoying to go against him in a game with 30+ Killers.
- Lag: When he is laggy, he is super frustrating to play against. The Killer can get hits around corners and through walls, and despite clearly dodging on the Survivor's screen, he too often unjustly gets the hit through latency. Only arguably Huntress reaches the same level of lag based frustration.
- Tunneling: His kit is 2nd only to Pyramid Head in terms of debilitation people and tunneling them out of the match. His infection starts at half, so even if he screws up, he can win by hindering the tunneled Survivor. Even if he loses sight of them, the Sprays provide Killer Instinct for where the victim is, and there even is an add-on to make the Survivor Oblivious post-spray.
- Visibility: His TR is an unusual 40m, so it lulls people into a false sense of security, then he is able to quickly Dash 21m total. He even is wearing a black trenchcoat and is at roughly normal Survivor height, so he can blend in as a Survivor or within the backdrop.
- Sweats: Because he is a good Killer, he draws an above average level of sweaty players. These players make the game horrible to play in, and make the Survivors question why they even bothered launching the game today. This causes even benign actions to be poisoned under the "is this dude a sweatlord" lens, and can come to false positives as a result.
To fix some of these, there could be a few things done.
- Repeat Killer prevention/Killer bans for Survivor. Prevent running into the same Killer twice in a row and the overuse isn't nearly as large of a problem.
- KI doesn't show up on Survivors who haven't completed a CA post-hook. If a Survivor sprays themself after being unhooked, the Killer Instinct won't trigger if they haven't tapped a gen/healed a Surv/touched a totem/etc.
- Post-hook infection starts at 5-10% max instead of 50% max. This would limit the ability to hard tunnel off hook through hindering the Surv. Alternatively, post-hook infection doesn't progress until the Survivor does a Conspicuous Action.
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This is a massive new player flaw that could easily be fixed, and the argument that "they might snitch in soloq" is a joke. Do you add everyone in the pre-game lobby to Discord and use comms? They why would people all of the sudden friend AND message soloq teammates? People aren't going to jump through the number of hoops required for a mild advantage in a lost match they aren't even a part of. Heck, even if they do, the Survivors will lose more by alt-tabbing or pausing to read the messages on average than they would stand to gain.
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@SleepyLunatic said:
You took a year off and still havent fixed your wifi?
If you live in the US, you can't "fix your wifi". The company will charge you scam rates for subpar service, and because they (in all likelihood) bribed officials, so you likely only have 1 ISP in your area. That means you can't even threaten them with going to another company because they know they have a monopoly.
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@Alen_Starkly said:
I also hope they give us separate buttons for these 2 perks: "E" for blast mine, and "F" for Wiretap, for example. Let us choose when we want to activate each of them, please :(
Exactly, we need mappable buttons for all 4 perk slots. Even if we don't have that circumstance now, eventually it will be needed.
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@Peanits said:
As others have pointed out, many people use it to show good sportsmanship, even if they lost. Not everyone is so focused on the outcome. If we want to get technical, usually it should be the person who 'lost' to say it first so it can't be misinterpreted as taunting, but since there aren't exactly clear cut winners in this game, that's not always possible. It's just important to read the room before saying it. If the match was completely one sided, the winner(s) probably shouldn't say it first.
You are not obligated to say it if you don't want to. You can even choose to hide the chat if you don't want to see it from other people. That said, always assuming the worst of people is a very dangerous way of thinking that tends to sour your opinion of people that have done nothing wrong.
This just made me think, could there be an option to have chat start 'off' by default? As if you clicked the box to hide chat more accurately. I would leave it on, but people who don't like even the risk of being insulted can just avoid that risk entirely, and streamers can avoid people saying uncouth things working around the filter.
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@JollyStrangler said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3535566#Comment_3535566
All of the above actually! I won't go into any major details just yet.
But just to expand a little bit on my plans:
Using the features provided by the forum software, I plan on working on making the forum itself easier and more intuitive to navigate for new and pre-existing users.
I also plan on creating posts, polls, potential contests, etc. to help promote conversation. They will mostly always be related to DbD or the forums.
I appreciate the inquiry! As changes are made, I will post about them and your feedback will be greatly appreciated.
My intentions will become more clear as time goes on!
Cool, cool, thanks for answering!
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@VenomousWolf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3535561#Comment_3535561
true enough, the zombies don't 'kill' but they do injure the survivors, so the zombies are basically an extension of the killer... at least that's what I gathered from it? and tbh, I'm more looking for a werewolf themed dlc, and I even gave a story/history for one if they were up to a suggestion for one, even tossed out some potential names.
but if they could release a dlc for 'Classic screams' (working title) with three or four classic inspired killers, like the werewolf mentioned above who originally was just a logger, who was attacked by a wolf and essentially went insane with a mental disorder also called Lycanthropy, only to have the entity bring him back with a sort of Karmic reincarnation thing... but that's just an idea I threw together. ^^;
Yeah I think for the most part if Demo stays no longer part of the license, they could pivot his design into "The Werewolf". Demo would remain as Legendary skins, but the Killer gameplay wise can still be available to most of the public.
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@HugTechLover said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3533970#Comment_3533970
Not uncommon? I haven’t had a cheater in FOREVER. It’s pretty brazen to say you’re facing cheaters COMMONLY. I highly highly doubt that. I would bet that all those scenarios you’re describing have an explanation.
Yeah the problem without more clear information like replays or tooltips is that people conflate their ignorance with the opponent cheating.
When I was new and playing in soloq, if I died and saw the Killer had no perks, I thought they were a cheater, like when cheaters used to bring all the perks by bringing none of them. What I didn't know (until later told only by word of mouth) was that the Killers build is hidden (even in soloq for some bizarre reason) until the match is over for everyone. It was even worse because when I'd play with friends, I'd never see these 'cheaters' (due to spectating my friends till the end of the match), and I wouldn't lose against a no-perk Killer 'cheater' (because I escaped which was essentially the end of the match). There is absolutely nothing in game the explains why the Killer's build is hidden until the end of the match, as the fellow Survivor perks are shown, so why wouldn't the Killer's?
Every time I see people thinking players are cheating, it just reminds me of how poor the new player experience is, and the obfuscated mechanics make people's lack of understanding the real culprit.
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@JollyStrangler said:
Heyo everyone!
My name is Richard also known as The JollyStrangler, and I am the newest member of the Community Coordination team!
A little bit about myself: I am a Canadian born dork who has been playing videogames since my hands could fit around a controller. I play a large variety of games! If the game has pixel art graphics, I'm usually all over it. At the time of writing this, I am about halfway through the incredible Chronotrigger-inspired, Sea of Stars.
I consider myself a Killer main. Right now my top three killers are The Cenobite, Bing Bong, and The Clown. I play as a survivor as much as I can to learn how to be a better killer and when the bloodpoint bonus is in their favour.😋
My main role on the forum will be to help make the forum easier to navigate, prettier and more user friendly. As well as try to increase engagement on the forum. These engagement efforts will not distract from the subject of DbD. I do not have any major changes or engagement efforts to announces today, but please keep posted as I will always post about major changes as they happen on the forum.
The first thing I have added to the forum is the missing survivor and killer avatars into the avatar pool! There are some licensed characters that we will not be adding to the list, otherwise the majority of the characters are there!
I have also added a frequently requested avatar!
The Feathers of Pride charm!
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/HPCIRMOHDHM3/pridecrowfull.png
I hope you enjoy the Avatars! I look forward to getting to know the community! I also look forward to your feedback and input.
Thank you for taking the time to read this!
~JollyStrangler
"As well as try to increase engagement on the forum" - Is this to try to get more people to use this official channel rather than others (like reddit, content creator Discords, etc.). Or maybe raw quantity of posts or curated/better posts? Or is it improving QoL across the board for the forum experience? I guess I don't quite know what the goal is.
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IIRC the original idea was to never use 'classic' (end of the alphabet) horror tropes of Vampires/Werewolves/Yetis/Zombies. That was the shorthand, but the idea was along the lines of they are too stale or centuries old. Even then Zombies aren't the Killer, they are part of the power (for Nemmy). If they added a Vampire, it would need to be a fresh spin on the concept of what it is to be a Vampire. It was basically a push for creativity within the team. Now to be fair, I think that was also the directive 6-7 years ago, and could probably include 'classic' horror now.
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@Steakdabait said:
My idea to give it a minor rework would be
Grim embrace can now trigger twice per match (still have to hook each survivor once each refresh)
Grim embrace now reveals the auras of ALL survivors instead of just the obsession when it triggers
The perk would still be bad but it would become the most gigachad slowdown perk in the games history.
I like the double proc, but I would have it only work while no one is dead (that way you can't be rewarded for just purposely tunneling someone out after the first proc). Also I think the all Survivor aura thing should be the Obsession final hook reward, so maybe you plan out to get the big reward by saving the Obs for later. Alternatively maybe the Obs being hooked gives 15-20s of incap on all Survs, so they can't just heal next to the gen while waiting, but not long enough to be like busted Eruption.
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Imagine the perks!
Hex: Bad CG: Even the entity could not comprehend the Eldritch Horror that was the album cover for Dance of Death, so it now seeks to confuse the Survivor by giving them bodies and minds equally warped. 1/3 Skill checks are Doctor Reverse Skill checks. 1/3 Skill checks are Doctor displaced Skill checks. 1/3 Fast (and Medium) vaults in chase cause the controls to be mixed up for 2s (WASD are randomized, controller stick is rotated 1/4 turn or half turn or 3/4 turn). Occasionally a midget not quite properly standing on a Wolf will appear as if a Doctor phantasm.
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@buckk0097 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3535106#Comment_3535106
you are missing the point. we have a turret hitbox issue with m1. it needs to be adressed if the m2 work a bit better that doesnt change that there is an issue still.
there is a problem and ur solution is to try and ignore it i just dont understand your reasonning
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3535191#Comment_3535191
right on the money. ive hit through turrets or just they woudnt break so many times and it is frustrating
Sorry I don't mean to be unclear, I'll try to clear up my reasoning. What I'm saying is M1ing Turrets builds bad muscle memory. There is no (meaningful) CD to M2, so as long as you are in power, it is strictly better to use it instead. Even if it had perfect (M1) hitboxes, that wouldn't change how inefficient an M1 break is. The turrets math are designed for any normal Xeno player to reaction M2 turrets and break a singular turret before being burnt out of power, so it is good to build good habits early and often.
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This is a very common ASD train of thought. Forced artificial social gestures feel empty at best, and a bald-faced lie at worst. That is all 'gg' is. The artificial social gesture to more accurately say "the match is over and I didn't hate every moment". I hate all of these forms of artificial shorthand social gestures, and I'd much prefer stuff like "best of luck futures". That at least comes from a desire for the other people to have a good time. An exchange of "gg"s is more like an Oblivion NPC dialogue, but you do it because you were socially programmed to do so.
The annoying problem is having to continuously deal with those lies and falsehoods day in and day out. "How are you doing" isn't an invitation to tell your life story or the why as to the current state, just requesting a "good, you?" Keeping up the 'translator' for gibberish into concepts is draining, and it makes sense to not want to be drained further when engaging in what is meant to be a fun hobby.
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@buckk0097 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3535070#Comment_3535070
if you leave a burned out turret survivors can reset it in seconds. plus an additional one if survivors wait out the timer on the crate
if you destroy it that area is vulnerable until the timer on the crate is up.
also sometimes im too close to them and i have to use m1.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3535077#Comment_3535077
love you man hahah, its like this one has more health
They can be reliably reaction M2'd without add-ons (as long as the Xeno player isn't 50% slower than the average human), and the pressure of harassing Survivors is far more valuable. Plus nothing stops you from hooking nearby then breaking the turret just before entering the tunnel to regain power instantly.
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Use M2, it is far more reliable. Also there isn't much cause to attempt to break a burnt out turret.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3534975#Comment_3534975
the perk is still lose/lose. it is just that % of repair are too irrelevant for it to matter. the game-delay from that perk suppose to come from the longer healing times. generator delay prospect of the perk is ineffective in current form. when it was improved, it immediately was made worse.
I dunno, agree to disagree. I much preferred 5% Thana alongside Pop when I wanted 2 slowdowns. The compounding effect is what makes it so valuable. I feel like healing is sufficient counterplay, and still gives the Survivor a benefit beyond removing the perk. Compared to Plaything which also requires a roughly equal time investment to deal with, and doesn't give the Survivor anything unless they brought a perk (Overzealous or Inner Healing for example).
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3534460#Comment_3534460
Pretty fair assessment, especially of the OC/CoB/Eruption phenomenon. I was seeing some genuinely terrible killer players getting carried by those perks during that meta. Killers that had absolutely no business winning. And one thing that BHVR doesn't like to mention but has been datamined is that it takes *a lot* of games to fall back below the MMR softcap once you reach it. And I'm wondering if part of the funny business going on with matchmaking is a behind the scenes numbers tweak to try and correct the Eruption inflation.
"Eruption inflation", that's such a perfect way to describe it. Imma steal that from now on, thanks.
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@Xernoton said:
6.1.0 was a necessaty not a mistake. If you were fine playing with and against the same 4-6 perks every single game, then good for you but most of us hated it. I will not go back to a 75% pick rate on DH. That can never happen again.
6.1.0 also reduced the strength of Shift + W. You see people complaining that the game isn't fun for them, when they actually make the game unfun for themselves. I understand that rushing the gens in 4 minutes is not all that exciting and neither is Shift + W instead of actual chasing. But for some reason this is what many survivors do instead of playing the game normally. And they die for it as soon as something doesn't go according to plan.
Base kit BT was added in 6.1.0 as well. This might be highly controversial but I think it's not such a bad thing that your solo team mates will no longer kill you by unhooking you without BT.
Ruin + Undying was also killed in that patch since Ruin is no longer a good perk. Do you want to go back to Ruin being in every game you play? Because I like that there is more variety in killer perks now. Although the removal of FTP's and BBQ's extra BP was tragic.
The reason why you look back on "old" DBD and think it was better back then is nostalgia. I miss a few things from the time I started playing too. Like the old Coldwinds. I know they were horribly unbalanced but in my opinion they had a better atmosphere the new Coldwinds. I would also like to switch back to old Haddonfield, knowing how bad it was. At least the lighting on that map wasn't as bad as it is now. I don't know why they keep doing this but for some reason there is always a grey-ish filter on the newer maps. Look at GoJ and (worse) Red Forest for example.
The problem with basekit BT is it came at the price of all other forms of anti-tunnel. DS was deleted, and OTR is disabled if the Killer activates the basekit BT. If anti-tunnel Endurance could stack, it wouldn't be a problem, but BHVR saw meme videos from content creators that couldn't happen in real matches, and took that as what would happen in every match.
@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3534518#Comment_3534518
the problem new thana is that you cannot build any injure pressure with majority of killers to make an impact in mid-game with it. the only good usage of current thana is to play Nurse Midwich with distressing+coulrophobia+thana+darkness revealed. the other killers don't have enough chase to justify using the perk over regular regression perks.
I saw thana -action speed on generator as more of incentive to heal then actual main effect of the perk. the perk felt more supplementary anti-heal perk in the previous iterations of the perk. i preferred old version more. the only minor issue with thana in old version was that 4 people injured was not that great of penalty so people powered through it. i wish perk was more hybrid where you get 5/10/15% slower healing but on final stack, you get 20% repair penalty. more incentive to pressure entire team. these small % are too irrelevant to use the perk.
If you are talking about the 2 per surv +12 on all version then I completely agree it is trash. The normal complaint however with M1 Killers is MfT is too juicy for them, and people are staying injured to greed gens because it (alongside Resilience) is so juicy. I also agree that Thana's slowdown is meant to encourage healing moreso, but the current version only encourages healing when ALL are injured. The old/good version of Thana encouraged healing at all injured counts, but didn't require it either. I don't like the idea of Thana slowing down healing though, because the counter to Thana is healing. I feel like it is bad design to have it be a lose-lose. This is one of the times I agree with the dev logic on a perk. (As Thana used to also apply to heal speeds.) Like I said though, the Myers Thana/Plaything/Penti is a juicy (non-Tombstone) build, but it takes getting used to.