danielmaster87
danielmaster87
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@LittleBigSunset said:
I would much rather play through an awful match knowing that there is a chance of at least someone getting out than have it where if we lose at the start no one has any chance. You would see a lot more survivors just giving up if the hatch was removed. Keeps things tense too.
Well that's very telling for how fragile survivors' egos and willpower are, if they'd give up so easily just from that. Maybe it's just me, but I keep trying to win from beginning to end, even when it's pointless, and I wouldn't expect pity points when I refused to do so.
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@oxygen said:
Just take the "hatch is a null result" thing to its logical conclusion and make it award the killer all the points, emblem score and possible challenge/achievement progress a hook would give.
It's not what I prefer, but it's something. Surprising that so many people here think that hatch is the crown jewel of ideas for how to end the game.
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@Raptorrotas said:
"Be happy with a 3k, you dont need 4"
"Be happy wtih gens done, no need to escape"
If you say yes to only one of those you might be biased.
How is that even remotely the same? You can end the game 6 ways to Sunday as survivor, but the killer is at the game's and the survivors' mercy.
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@Zexbunny said:
Killers who complain about hatch are the lamest killers tbh. If you can't stand a hatch escape, you probably shouldn't be playing this game. There's plenty of other games for you to play if the hatch mechanic -- which has been severely nerfed and fairly so -- bothers you so much. I don't see why people like you even play this game. You sound miserable, and would probably be less miserable playing a different game. It's not good for your health.
I'm glad so many people here are certified psychologists, and suddenly question my mental health when I say something they disagree with.
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@Gandor said:
OP is judt baiting. Endgame with hatch play is like 70% killer win (considering some high mobility killers). 99% if killer slugs for 4k.
I don't believe in all the issues in this game this is THE problem for killers. And if I am mistaken, then it's clearly time to look at survivors problems for a change.
But it does speak a great deal to how unnecessarily convoluted killer is. Can't even close the game out in a normal fashion. Have to go through hoops and RNG instead.
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@CluelessWanderer said:
So you basically want the last survivor to be handed to you on a silver platter. I mean Solo Q is already in a miserable state with low escape rates. The MMR is a disaster and doesn’t work, resulting in potato team mates. The chance of finding the hatch before the Killer rare (especially high mobility Killers). Then the chance of actually finding a key in a chest? Laughable. Sorry, but it never happens. If Killer finds the hatch first a survivor only has a 16% chance of getting the gate against non-teleporting, lower mobile killers. But that’s still not enough lol. No, we have to be gift wrapped, bedazzled, and dropped in the Killer’s lap 😂
How is it on a silver platter? I've pointed out that unless you're Nurse or Blight, you had to play your butt off just to get to this situation. Let's just admit that killer has to work for their kills, because the language that's being used suggests otherwise.
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3155346#Comment_3155346
Some maps though the exits are very far away just had that situation my last match and I would really needed that 4K because I got entity hungers with 3K.
Those far apart exits are more common than most like to admit. I speak from experience.
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@Bot_Salvo88 said:
If the last survivor has been downed and you can't find him, just go make yourself a coffee untill he bleeds out or he finds hatch. You won anyway, so no big deal
But then where's my sacrifice points? I just forfeit that for free because bad game mechanics? I wasn't talking about this, but it is an important consideration.
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@HugTheHag said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3155307#Comment_3155307
"I'm gonna stop you right there. There is no 1 strategy in the history of this game that has ever come close to killers having a 100% chance to 4k. If you're gonna fool anybody trying to argue that, it certainly isn't going to be me. You don't JUST get a 3v1."
And that disproves what I've said how exactly?
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@behaviourmakesmesad said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3155307#Comment_3155307
Killer main who slugg for 4k detected. Cringy cringy
Right, just deflect everything I said with an immature copypasta.
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@KerJuice said:
Keep in mind hatch is now considered a draw for survivors and even though they escaped via it, they didn’t beat you. They gain nothing. You already won by killing 3 out of the 4. Don’t let that upset you. Now if they managed to get the exit gates opened after you closed the hatch, chalk that up to RnG and don’t let that upset you either, because you will catch more survivors trying to open the exit gates than them actually slipping past you. That was just a bad spawn of the gates being far apart with line of sight blocked in between. There are plenty of map iterations where the killer can see both exit gates from the middle- especially if you find a little elevation or high ground.
Hatch is needed for survivors who actually tried to get ish done, but had teammates like the one you spoke of above, not doing anything and dying earlier. Imagine being a good player getting paired up with 3 of those potatoes (which happens waaaay more than you trying to beat one of those potatoes to hatch as killer) and not standing a chance in hell of surviving. Your only glimmer of hope is a 50/50 hatch escape that just gives you a draw. You’re not guaranteed to beat the killer to it, but at least it’s there as some sort of compensation for your troubles.
No, they did beat me. They escaped, and that's their objective. Their team didn't win, but they did. And they'll be more than happy to throw it in my face by tbagging, vault spamming, or flashlight clicking near the hatch before they jump in.
I've just suggested alternate compensation, as opposed to them getting a free escape. You're making the mistake of giving the survivor the benefit of the doubt that their teammates were trash and they did everything. And we're balancing the game around that. Imagine if we balanced the game around giving killer the benefit of the doubt.
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@Damarus said:
Actually, the reason for killers to slug the 3rd survivor to kill the 4th, too, is simply that they cannot conceive a match without 4 kills, because getting 4 kills is the most important thing in their lives. You could have the room in which they are playing getting flooded, they still wouldn't stop playing until the 4th kill happens. When you are a normal human being, tho, you play as the match happens. If you find the hatch before the survivor, nice (you might even consider giving it to him). If you don't, then he escapes. But, unlike those who desperately slug for the 4th kill, your life will still go on as normal.
There you go with the belittling. I know life goes on, but I have considered cutting DBD out of my life on multiple occasions because of blueballing and reward denial like this being baked into the game. It's not abnormal to want to win, and not just by the skin of our teeth which is what a 3k often feels like.
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@HugTheHag said:
Hatch is a good mechanic. Sometimes it's the only possible escape. If a killer forces a 3v1 from the start, the game will most likely end with hatch. Without it, this strategy would be 100% of the time rewarded with 4Ks instead of sometimes with an escape.
Plus some of us killers like to give hatch.
And I don't think the survivors' feelings are the only ones taken into consideration by the devs.
I'm gonna stop you right there. There is no 1 strategy in the history of this game that has ever come close to killers having a 100% chance to 4k. If you're gonna fool anybody trying to argue that, it certainly isn't going to be me. You don't JUST get a 3v1.
You like to give hatch? Good for you. Maybe if it ever goes away, you can just let 1 survivor escape for free, even if they still have 4 gens still to do, because you're a nice killer. But I'm not a nice killer, because I want to win, and there's nothing wrong with that, hence why it's not against the rules and the devs haven't put a statement out about it.
Survivors' feelings are taken very seriously in this game. You can't show gameplay of tunneling or camping, even if it was necessary to win the game, to an audience of more than like 5 without someone saying, "Wow, trash killer" or "that's messed up." And that mentality is shown in the game balance. Specifically the wording of the Reassurance nerf, not the nerf itself, is a prime example. "It prevented survivors from being sacrificed against their will." It's survivor-centric thinking, especially when it's talking about a survivor's right, I guess we could call it, to unalive themselves on hook, which 90% of the time ruins the game for their teammates. But the 1 survivor was able to give up on a match that they didn't like, so that's all fine and dandy.
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@jajay119 said:
In the vast majority of matches I play the killer closes the hatch within about 5-10 seconds of it spawning. There are hardly ever keys in chests, if there are it is, for some unfathomable reason, a green one, which is pointless. The doors are often so close together you will never get them open if you're the last survivor. Many perks are now disabled in the EGC despite killers having NoEd which still activates when there is only one survivor left.
The EGC is not in any way shape or form survivor sided and based on what you have said you're already sitting on a 3k which is more than a win by BHVRs own perameters.
How could it not be survivor sided? I've just explained, as I have many times in the past, how survivors get like 3 chances to escape just in endgame, and I'll explain it again for you. Survivor happens to be the last one alive, hatch spawns for free. Killer closes the hatch, the gates get powered. It's a small chance, but after that the survivor can find a key in a chest and get hatch. Or they could have done all the gens but there's 1 survivor left, and now the killer has to guard 3 things.
Note how I say "when the killer actually wins", meaning just to get to these ridiculous scenarios, you have to trudge through hell or high water, such is the state of the game for killer. The major part of the game by and large has not changed, and neither has this outdated and unnecessary endgame mechanic. It's so stupid. Kill the survivors too good, they get to escape. It's counterintuitive to the purpose of killer.
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@ThatOneDemoPlayer said:
Closing the Hatch trumps jumping into it
No. I've seen that the survivor wasn't jumping in, I mashed the button on approach and saw the prompt pop up if but for a second, and then the survivor jumps in. He wasn't even waiting on the hatch as I came closer.
@Deathstroke said:
If the 4K is that important just slug for it. Hatch is fine it's good mechanic. Killer actually has clearly better chance finding it with faster movement speed too.
We pretty much raced to the hatch from the same staring point, after he was clicking and clearly wanting to drop a nearby pallet to stun me, and his prompt beat out mine, and it seemed like he was going through me, and he just jumped in. If it was as simple as "You have the advantage because you're faster" we wouldn't be having this discussion, would we? And I'm far from the only person who complains about hatch. There just hasn't been a focus on it recently.
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@Wowie said:
The hatch is fine. If you have basic map knowledge you can usually figure out where it spawns. Also, keys were nerfed, and genuinely aren't a problem anymore.
Non-issue!
Basic map knowledge has nothing to do with the multiple multiple places it can spawn. It's not like there's only 3 potential spawn points on any map.
It's a non issue yet I keep seeing people hiding in solo the whole game with Left Behind simply because this mechanic exists, but the killer's probably to blame for that too I assume?
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It's the low MMR you're at. At least you question it. Most survivors just say "I switched to killer and got 4ks ez" and call it a day.
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Make more of his add-ons have to do with his tentacle? Like 90% of them have to do with his zombies.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3150821#Comment_3150821
I’m sure the devs are held back from making good survivor perks because of SWFs with voice communication. Should we nerf that too?
Reassurance would have been fine for solo q, because one person couldn’t keep it going non stop, which meant the hooked person could have let go on hook in the 10 seconds the perk wasn’t active. It was only broken for SWFs with voice communication, because they could coordinate the perk going non stop, and could have prevented the survivor from letting go on hook.
Probably! It's only the most complained about thing from the killer pov. There's too much evidence to say, "The gap between solo and SWF is fine. Stop blaming everything on SWF." There probably have been perks that weren't created because of SWF, but then again we got Boil Over, Breakout, Breakdown, Soul Guard, For The People, Mettle Of Man, Prove Thyself, etc which are perfect for SWF and oddball for solo. Maybe we can't do much about that because you can only do so much to stop people from running perks (ahem unless it's killer, then you get all your useful perks nerfed), but we can stop SWF's stupid efficiency. Give them a gen speed debuff. "But why am I penalized for playing with friends?" You're either "just playing with friends" or you've put together a team that's trying to win. There's no in-between. Why do killers have to suffer from stupid levels of efficiency from SWF to where they can't win, just because you want to play with friends? I use the word lightly, but it's selfish.
I agree that Reassurance would have been fine for solo. I was actually okay with it hitting live as it was, and didn't give in to the absolute hysteria that "Every 3-man SWF is gonna bully with it! They're gonna take the random hostage!" Is that technically possible? Yes. Would it happen a lot? No. Why would it? Who has the time or energy to go and be like, "You know what? Let's ruin some random's day" or "Let's force ourselves into a 3v1." Unless the killer is also part of the charade somehow, they're either gonna see what the SWF is doing and kill them for that random's sake, or they're gonna beat the remaining survivors anyway because of it being a 3v1. It's just funny to me that the big reason why this perk was changed was "A survivor would be stopped from being sacrificed against their will." So we're balancing around rage quitting, which the devs are fine with even though they put in a DC penalty? They have always, always flip-flopped on their position on DCs, I swear to god, ever since they put the DC penalty in.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3148885#Comment_3148885
The answer to every one of your questions is that when those perks or abilities were unregulated, they were found to be too oppressive. Remember—the kill rate has consistently been above 50% *for years*. The killers you specifically named also have kill rates consistently above 50%. Checks and balances are very important in asymmetrical games.
"Unregulated"? You mean killers being able to use the things that they equipped? Poppycock. Those perks and killers could have been much better and still wouldn't have been enough to beat efficient survivors. They're oppressive alright, to those who allow them to be. You stopped seeing Pop and Ruin before their recent nerfs, despite being "oppressive" because killers realized they just stopped working after a certain point. You got 2 hooks before the game was over, a gen got done in your face, or your hex was destroyed? Those perks did nothing for you.
Since when have the stats ever shown accuracy? They can say that the kill rate is 70%, but that doesn't mean that 4-man escapes aren't happening all the time. And I don't agree with the devs' vision. A 50% kill rate is pathetic, and at some point it probably will prevent a licensed chapter from happening, because they're gonna look at this game called Dead By Daylight, and they're gonna see the most famous horror icons around getting stunned loads and watching helplessly as 3-4 survivors run out the gates, even at high level, and say "We don't want our character to feel like that." If this is about checks and balances, they've done a poor job of it to say the least. Maps still not addressed, old offensive defensive survivor perks replaced with new ones, and many killers just being left in the dust, including Freddy who people actually believed was OP and S tier at some point. That's why we don't have balance, because even M1 killers are sometimes targeted for nerfs when people know better than to call that OP.
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@ThatOneDemoPlayer said:
I've yet to use any other Aura reading Perks aside from Lethal Pursuer. Leprose Lichen is just too good
The fact that the aura reading extension also applies to add-ons makes it a pretty useful perk.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3150854#Comment_3150854
1) I never asked for that and so that last statement definitely doesn't apply to me.
2) They took the easy way out. Just five the on-hook Survivor the ability to ignore Reassurance, and also cap match lengths
But you did fear that the perk as it was would be used to hold people hostage?
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@Sadako_Best_Girl said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3150867#Comment_3150867
I actually just learned that skill checks on console have a considerable input delay. When I was hitting them on PC it felt super weird, which is frustrating because I had already learnt how to hit greats on console.
Okay good, it's not just me being crazy. I always have to get my thoughts validated through someone else because I've been told "It's just you" on pretty much every aspect I have a problem with on this game.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3149473#Comment_3149473
This was clear from the beginning that once there is ONE change for Survivors that Killer Mains will totally forget 6.1.0.
But it is no surprise, given that one of the most vocal Killer Main-Streamers is also complaining about the 5 second extra Endurance.
And when that one change happens to be 10 seconds of Endurance and 10% Haste for unhooked survivors, making the BT nerf pointless?
When you actually start to look at balance changes from the eyes of the killer instead of just the survivors, you pick out a lot of things, even though you'll be called nitpicking. What was it in 6.1.0 that made the game "unplayable" for survivors anyway?
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@Aneurysm said:
Maybe I still have covid after all and patch 6.1.0. was just something I dreamt up during the fever because half the forum seems to think it never happened
You mean that patch that had a few promising changes for killers, some of which were nerfed before even hitting live, and all of a sudden the game is "unplayable" and "killer sided?"
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@Kaitsja said:
In the last major patch, killers got the carrot. The carrot was shorter chases thanks to basekit buffs, increased gen times, nerfs to popular survivor perks and a nerf to the post-hit speed boost survivors get.
The carrot did absolutely nothing to reduce tunneling, and in fact made it worse since now it was easier than ever to secure that first down.
But I'll humor your idea. Let's say they test that out. Do you know what survivors will do? They'll bring a full genrush build with toolboxes and BNP to offset the repair penalty, which will just prompt killers to tunnel even more.
But even if they don't do that, killers are still going to tunnel because the 3v1 is easier than the 4v1. In a 3v1 if you have one survivor slugged or hooked, and you're chasing another survivor, that leaves just one survivor who can get the rescue which also means there's nobody on gens. In a 2v1, any more than 1 gen remaining is a loss.
The carrot before that was Pop, Ruin/Undying, Pain Res, Thrill Of The Hunt, etc. Killers actually moved around the map a lot more. But now that they can't do that and still have a good chance of winning, because every one of those things was nerfed, here we are.
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@NerfedFreddy said:
Incentivise doesn't work. Only restrictions and punishment work
Yes it would work. You saw less tunneling before Pop, Pain Res, Corrupt, and Ruin/Undying were nerfed. Coincidence? I think not.
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I guess it is selfish to want to win.
But seriously, I just stopped reading after "old Deathslinger OP" and "Adrenaline Vial OP."
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@BenOfMilam said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3150821#Comment_3150821
Nerfing killers because certain perks are strong on them hurts me so much. Deathslinger's ADS change was fine, I adapted to it just fine. However, he's crippled by his 32m Terror Radius. You have to stack stealth perks on him just to keep people from holding W against you every time you get anywhere near them.
Just rework the problematic perk, like how Stridor was changed so it couldn't counter old Iron Will for Spirit (the only user of Stridor). If M&A gave you a percentage reduction and increase of TR, it would be less effective on killers with small TRs like Slinger, but unchanged for everyone else.
Please just give me back those 8 meters BHVR 😥
The perks aren't problematic just because they're effective on 1 or 2 killers. That's what I'm trying to say. If it becomes a staple perk on a killer, so be it. You don't see people saying nerf Iron Maiden on Huntress or Corrupt on Trapper just because it helps them, but they want to nerf other stuff because the killers that use them are actually strong. Why would a killer not run 4 gen defence perks every time when all their alternatives, these niche perks that actually work for their specific killer, keep getting nerfed? That's what the "nerf this killer perk" crowd, including the devs, have been missing.
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It's gonna be super OP for PC survivors, and not so much for console people like myself who get screwed by an unoptimized port and/or unresponsive controls for the skill checks. I can only dream of hitting great skill checks 90% of the time.
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@brokedownpalace said:
Didn't realize they ever stopped using 4 regression perks
They didn't stop using them, but there wasn't much choice.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
"Survivors prevail once again" make it make sense
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/N19MMPA2KNIP/image.png
Survivors asked for that first nerf, you know, because as soon as it hit live every single 3-man SWF in existence was gonna hold the random hostage (in reality that would have been a rarity, because who wants to do that with their time?). Now those same people who worried about that possibility are complaining about the nerf or using it to say, "See? Survivors get nerfed too." You can't make this up.
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@HugTheHag said:
Reassurance got nerfed in a way that makes it much less effective, and Better Than New no longer gives repair speed. So no, survivors got nerfed as well.
The Reassurance nerf is one that they themselves asked for. "But then I can't unalive myself on hook!" Maybe you shouldn't be doing that then? And Better Than New being yet another gen speed perk for survivors, just for getting healed? Nuh-uh. It's better off being the new Leader that they made it into.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
You focus on one point and ignore that they made two upcoming Survivor Perks pointless in the next Update AND reduced the number of Pallets on the new RPD-Maps.
But I bet the 2 god pallets in the main room are still there.
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@DoritoHead said:
They killed Reassurance and buffed Wesker but guys, they actually added an effective measure to prevent tunneling! They MUST be survivor sided!
They nerfed Wesker at the same time, because they can't just make killer stronger. They're always obligated to make survivor stronger as well when they do that.
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It's hard to say because they're hit or miss. They could have made Wesker bump into things less without making his special attack hitbox smaller, and you could do the same to Twins and to Huntress, but they didn't.
I guess something they get right is allowing some killers' add-ons to stay strong because of their rarity. "Nerf Pinky Finger! Nerf Alchemist's Ring! Nerf Adrenaline Vial!" Why? Aren't higher rarity add-ons supposed to be strong? Or are we using the same mentality for them as we use on killers in general, that they should never be strong?
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The devs have to do something. They can't keep being held back from making good perks just because Nurse exists, but they also can't nerf her in a big way or we'll be left with 1 viable killer instead of 2. They need to make her blink attacks special attacks or something. It's probably better to not rework her like Freddy, because the devs take forever to do stuff like that and use it an excuse not to focus on anything else that needs addressing/updating.
Or, after some deliberation, maybe the devs should just allow certain perks to be strong on certain killers. But that has to be the consistent standard or it won't work. I hate going against Starstruck Nurse, even though it's rare for me, but I just gotta get over it and deal with it. I expect people to deal with Stridor Spirit, so I might as well stick to that mentality. The devs should never have nerfed Deathslinger's terror radius just because it could be combo'd with M&A. That was the dumbest. It and the Iron Will trumping Stridor thing are the best examples of the devs saying no to the idea of killers specializing in using certain perks. "Don't make smart builds!" As opposed to what? Running 4 gen defence perks every time? That's the result they're creating by taking away these perk-killer interactions. These are niche perks. Let them be good on certain killers. It will be fine.
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@hailxsatanxeveryxday said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3149042#Comment_3149042
Yeah, you'll still lose all the gens if you don't have Deadlock. I tried a few games yesterday with Overcharge+Call of Brine+Eruption+Pop, and it's much less effective.
And yes, you need to play with a very specific playstyle. Kicking gens becomes more important than committing to chases. I play mostly stealth killers, so I get a lot of free hits out of the fact that once they realize you have the CoB/Overcharge combo, they'll all hug gens, which cuts my chase time in half. Find the weakest looper and tunnel them out; once it's 3v1, they don't stand a chance, especially if you have a good potential three-gen set up.
I win 90% of games with this build, and I'd say that, more than half the time, there's only one gen left when I do. So I think Deadlock makes all the difference there.
Since I mostly play M1 killers, it's more consistent than a full anti-chase build in many cases. If you have zero mobility, a genrush squad is a very real threat no matter how quickly you can get downs.
Then where's the power in the combo if you also need Deadlock, weak links, tunneling, and Undetectable to win with it? The way I've heard it be described is that Overcharge/Call Of Brine/Eruption wins games on its own, and that you actually can't lose with it.
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@VikingDragonXii said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3149098#Comment_3149098
Seriously over 2 secs...that's all Nurses fault...the Thanta Nerf was because of Legion and Vommy Mommy because they could easily injure or Perma injure the survivors, Nurse did cause that. Same goes for this change, there are multiple other Killers that could easily abuse that 2 secs of info and use Starstruck to quickly down survivors.
Oh and if everyone is so worried there is a easy fix....make every attack after first blink a special attack.
Go one step further. Make blink attacks special attacks. Then she wouldn't be able to abuse Starstruck or this perk they're nerfing.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3149027#Comment_3149027
No?
Nurse needs some add-ons changes, sure. But you can not change her base-kit. And if she has this base-kit, probably some perks will be nerfed and this is alright.
Thana nerfed cuz Legion & Plague and it was okey but whenever one perk nerfed for Nurse, now it is problem?
No, thanks. Nerf perks, not killers.
I was vehemently against the Thana nerf because the perk rewarded killers for injuring multiple people, not camping or tunneling. Legion and Plague don't suddenly become unbeatable just because the games lasted a bit longer. Nothing stopped the survivors from bringing toolboxes or Prove Thyself to speed up the gens, or bring Counterforce if the killer also brought Pentimento.
Yes, Nurse is the problem, not every perk that has to be changed just because she exists. Awakened Awareness was the one that broke the camel's back, because I was also vehemently against pre-nerf Hangman's back on the old Deathslinger ptb getting nerfed, and now that we finally got something similar, it has to suffer the same fate. Killer's aura reading perks suck. If you're gonna make a perk that can let you only see survivors' auras when you're carrying someone, at least give it a benefit like having a big range or have a 2-second lingering effect.
Killer nerfs/reworks that were necessary have been few and far between, but the most glaring candidate of all, y'all don't want to do it.
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@Kaitsja said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3148987#Comment_3148987
Dead by Daylight is horror themed. It is not actual horror.
Well that's why I was hesitant to take that position, because I knew that people would just reply to that part and not the rest. My point still stands that the 1 should never feel powerless, when it totally does all the time in this game, and not just for new players.
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@Firellius said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3149014#Comment_3149014
"Their skill isn't enough to win, so they have to turn to strategies and perk/add-on loadouts to maybe see a chance of winning"
Aren't you here complaining about how your skill isn't enough to win, so you have to turn to strategies and perk/add-on loadouts to maybe see a chance of winning?
Why is it that when survivors use anti-camp/anti-tunnel perks, they're unskilled and using them as a crutch, but when a killer relies on tunnelling and camping, it's because the game is unfair?
It's that classic 'Survivors win = survivors OP, killer wins = survivors bad' mindset.
Why is skill not a considered factor for killers?
Because killer perks literally require them to play more skillfully to get use out of them, whereas survivor perks are kind of just there, and the more powerful ones can be used offensively despite being defensive perks. For example Ruin, Pop, and Pain Res got called OP and nerfed even though they only reward killers who left hook and went for multiple chases. The people who say killers got carried by those perks despite camping are wrong; it's their bad play, allowing the killer to get off multiple uses of those perks while they're supposedly camping, that caused them to lose. We've seen time and again that even with 4 gen defence perks and whether the killer camped or was always being in chase, killers aside from Nurse and Blight couldn't have won, because the survivors were too efficient on gens.
That's why killers camp and tunnel: the race against time. Survivors don't have an option to do gens in a skillful way. They just do them, although it's their decision to be efficient or not. On the killer side, being efficient and playing skillfully are considered polar opposites, because the skill is all in the chase. If the killer camps or tunnels, they have to do less chases which is them being efficient on their time. Going for multiple chases, you can end chases very quickly, but it's inefficient unless it immediately results in a survivor being sacrificed. That's why it's hard to play like that and still win, because while you're wasting time displaying skill instead of being efficient, survivors have no reason to not be efficient on gens, and they almost always beat you to the punch.
I for one want to see Reassurance in action, and I'm hoping it will be as good as I'm predicting it will be. I want to see if it stops camping and, if so, I want to see how well killers do by not camping. That doesn't mean that I'm optimistic about how killers are gonna perform though. What I like about Reassurance, and Kinship, is that it's for a survivor who's on the hook, not a survivor who's off the hook.
Anti-tunnel perks are the problematic ones, because just about every time they've been strong or buffed, they've been used offensively. DS, Mettle Of Man, BT, Off The Record, base Endurance, the works. Those are constantly used to protect the unhooker, who everyone thinks the killer is obligated to go for. Unless we want to talk about the game having some sort of body blocking detection system, we're admitting that these defensive perks become problematic when their uses exceed just making unhooked survivors safer. That's why they're crutch, because the unhooker didn't do anything to evade the killer in that interaction. Some random other survivor, since they could afford to take a hit or 2 because of their perks, jumped in the way and extended the chase for the person being chased when they should have been downed.
The killer main message that says that survivors win because they're OP, and killers win because the survivors are bad is mostly true. Survivors have enough tools, time, and killer weaknesses to exploit so that they can beat the killer on pretty much any given map. But I want to focus on that second part, that bad survivors is what allow killers to win. It's true for all killers except maybe Nurse and Blight, because they are so strong that they can play catch-up with the survivors having a lead on their objective. I don't care how creative your traps are as Trapper or how good your curving is as Hillbilly, how smart your snare placement is as Freddy or how good your reactions are with Deathslinger, you're not beating good survivors with that stuff. Their gen speed will be too quick to manage and they'll have too many second chance perks. You can beat bad survivors with that, because they take unnecessary risks and think that they can't be organized just because they don't have comms. They also don't seem to want to run strong perks or even items, but then they're the ones complaining about the strong stuff killers have?
Skill is considered a factor for killers. It's not included in a lot of discussions even though it should, but it's absolutely tied to game balance. The killer has to down really fast to get the best use out of perks like Pop and Pain Res, but to down fast you have to end chases fast, and that takes skill. Some loops you're forced to brute force until the pallet is down, like shack, because you'll waste an equal or greater amount of time trying to mindgame there. You can mindgame a survivor at a place like that, and that's skill, but the survivor had to make the mistake to allow your skill to matter. But assume the survivor doesn't get mindgamed there. That's still your skill you were trying to use but couldn't do anything with, similar to survivors being camped to death. Camping a survivor doesn't take much skill, but it saves you the pain of going through 1-2 more of those chases where you have to waste an arbitrary amount of time, and where your skill didn't matter that much, only for the survivors to win in the end. I think what most people who hate camping do is they say, "It takes no skill" and call it a day, and don't really go into why killers do it, or they do and they say, "Yeah, but the killer still shouldn't do it." Killers find places to use their skill when they can, but when they can't, you see what they do instead.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3149014#Comment_3149014
Because, at the end of the day, people enjoy winning more than being skilled.
You're not listening. In other games, being skilled is what causes you to win, but that also includes using the best strategies available, which would be that game's equivalent of camping or tunneling.
I can see where this is going, and I'm not interested in having yet another "You should play in a way that causes you to lose because it's more fun" type of conversation, so I'm gonna end it here.
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@hailxsatanxeveryxday said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3148996#Comment_3148996
Eruption is actually good now. Combine it with Call of Brine, Overcharge, and Deadlock, and it's a monster on any killer.
It's nowhere close to a monster on any killer. I've just done a whole stream of Call Of Brine/Overcharge/Eruption, and it was garbage. The games I did win, I would have won anyway. The games I lost, those perks did nothing for me. They literally encourage you to play in a weaker way. You need to commit to kicking gens instead of pursuing the survivors and getting more injures/downs, which makes them overall safer across the course of the match, which allows them to gen tap the gens you kicked and you get no regression. And as I predicted, the consistently healthy survivors who got hit by Eruption simply ran at me and took me on a chase, which is what Incapacitated encourages you to do since you can't work on gens or heal. And what was I to do, ignore them when they ran at me, just so I could find survivor who could work on gens, just so the person I just dropped chase with could get back on a gen since I left them and Incapacitated only lasts 20 something seconds? *inhale* The rest of you fools can try to make that "unbeatable" perk combo work. You can count me out.
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@arsoul93 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3148990#Comment_3148990
Honestly sounds more like you're not as good at killer as you think you are - which isn't an insult, playing killer effectively requires a lot of scheming and some people like to blame balance issues globally rather than looking at anything they could have done better throughout the game. These perks are not strong at all and playing killer is now easier than its ever been across most MMR ranges.
Well I think you're trying to insult my intelligence and gaslight, although you did a poor job of doing that. There was nothing that I said in my post that was incorrect. These perks are strong, because they allow body blocks and flashlight saves that don't count as conspicuous actions, and therefore don't deactivate, so that survivors can use their defensive perks as a shield even while running at the killer offensively. Those survivors exist, even if others use those same perks just to get away. I don't see how stating any of that could be misinterpreted as me simply being bad at the game, but hey, you made it work.
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I had this exact thought. "They're doing this because Nurse." I was silent on this issue until now, but I'm gonna break the silence. Even if Nurse wasn't OP, we can't allow her design to continue to hamper future perk design, so she needs to change.
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@Aneurysm said:
Shocked but unsurprised that BHVR has once again decided to cave in after survivor mains cried that they couldn't get an ez unhook for free. In my MMR bracket I have no option but to stand in front of you hitting you on the hook, chasing you when you get unhooked, getting bodyblocked by your teammates, and then DCing when I forget where you went. Otherwise I would simply lose.
Nah just kidding it's a nice change, get absolutely ######### basement hags
"It's ONLY 5 seconds of Endurance and 7% Haste." Now they can change the 5 to a 10 and the 7 to a 10, but of course they're still gonna include the "ONLY" part.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3147219#Comment_3147219
Why in the hell is a killer waiting so long to hook someone off hook?
Like 1. You were camping the hook which should be a bad play for killers and 2. You could literally just pursue the survivor who unhooked?
Except when the unhooked abuses their free anti-tunnel tools to protect the unhooker, and they can take 2 protection hits for free if they have DS. So then you're talking about going after the unhooker after 1-2 protection hits which gave them free distance on you. It's not feasible as killer.
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This is absolutely overkill. Killers are being pushed into a corner, needing to tunnel to win but being punished at base for doing so.
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@Pulsar said:
It's funny that you think you're playing at a high level.
I will grant you that, at the highest level, you do end up needing to tunnel or camp based off of RNG.
However, the VAST majority of players will never see that level of play. I don't even see that play consistently. Most players that do tunnel and camp use it as a crutch. It's easy and it works but it can destroy your growth as a Killer.
And I argue that you don't have to see tournament level survivors to be beaten; just good enough survivors will do. Gen speed, arbitrary time waste at loops, and second chance perks stop the killer from killing the survivors on time. Their skill isn't enough to win, so they have to turn to strategies and perk/add-on loadouts to maybe see a chance of winning. Even if the survivors do go down quick or make multiple misplays, there's not much room to punish them. You're on a strict curfew, and spending just 20 seconds chasing 1 person can be game-losing. Why else would killer players pick the strongest killers, perks, and playstyles even at the cost of ceasing to learn their killer?