arcaneGospel
arcaneGospel
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@sinkra said:
There's no need to list the reasons why it's op, it's been done already. SM is sitting at a 70% kr and is terrible to play against. In other games something so op would be hotfixed within 48 hours. How can the devs be fine with this?
There actually is a need to list the reasons, when you recognize survivors give up without knowing the BASICS of how she works. People aren't trying, they are refusing to adapt and are instead hoping the game will change to their every whim. Learn what she does and what to do about it.
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@ExcelSword said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3693030#Comment_3693030
What proof or evidence do you have that it is intentional?
A lot of killers have quirks to them that were not intentional. Some of them are just a logical consequence of how the power interacts with the game, some of them were clearly overlooked because people didn't learn or discover them before the PTB was released. Heck, sometimes things were present in the PTB that people despise but gets pushed to live anyway (*cough legion *cough).
If you like the killer alot, sure that is fine. But I don't see any reason to believe this is nothing more than a bug that lets the killer do interesting things. Just like Blight's hug tech (I hate the word tech) for instance, that is definitely not intended since the devs tweak it so often. Maybe the devs will decide they like the unknown being able to this that they polish it up or make it more clear that this is something the killer has the ability to do.We can argue that neither of us have proof all day but it makes a lot more sense to think they intended it or went "Hey, this is an AoE, we should see if it actually interacts with the environment properly" and decided they liked it rather than them SOMEHOW not considering "AoEs cover a large space which can include beyond walls" at ANY POINT, even when this function was discovered during the PTB. It is more logical to guess they intended or liked it than that they were too stupid to consider the fact that an AoE means it covers a large space.
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@ExcelSword said:
I find very strange how everyone is forgiving of the fact this killer can hit through walls, when it's clearly not intentional.
Could you imagine if they decreased the size of huntress Hatchets to a 10th of the size, but could hit survivors through solid walls as well? Even if it is very difficult it still would not be balanced.
They should make it more difficult to remove the weakened status effect and fix the are going through completely solid walls or ceilings. Splash damage against Half walls or where you can visibly see the survivor I would be fine getting hit through though. A killer shouldn't need to rely on bugs just because their power at base is not very dangerous needing to hit 3 times.
On no level is it unintentional, not as far as can be proven—and it's much more likely that this thing, which would obviously be the first thing you'd test with an AoE if you don't want it to go through walls, being in the game means it is meant to be. For WHAT reason do you believe it's unintentional?
Also, make removing weakened more difficult how? Isn't it good that it forces the killer to choose between taking unique, less direct routes, and choosing the more direct option for a potential M1 or tightly timed shot if they're confident? I, for one, greatly enjoy getting to put my skills as a stealth killer fan to use, and it's clearly how the Unknown is supposed to be played. Crazy shots through and around walls are maybe the most defining feature of the killer. -
Unknown's power is uniquely demanding in skill, both through bounce shouts and shots through walls, all the while requiring them to get at least three hits with the projectile which is rather easy to dodge when fired directly at a survivor. Their ability to get unique hits balances out the potential for their hits to give them no value without forcing survivors to spend time getting rid of Weakness or even changing how they optimally play to get rid of it. Removing pierce shots would not only make them less interesting, but would be bad balancing.
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I can't say I have or have not seen this concept supported, but if Chucky were to be the go-to toxic character, it would not at all be hard to understand. Chucky is easy to play and do well with because his optimal strategy is to use Scamper to not interact with the video game, and being small means he has incredible mindgames that the survivor has to deal with—if they try to leave the loop, he can see that better than other killers with his third person camera.
More importantly, Chucky is intrinsically unserious—He's a tiny doll who has a bunch of disrespectful voicelines. He has the appropriate vibe for it, for lack of a better word.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Sword looks like knights to me, head is a bit more wraith like but he doesn't have a sword.
Would be quite happy not to have sable & unkown next tome personally to be honest. Its just another push to get more people to buy the characters (I already have) & sick of seeinging unkown personally.
As much as I'd rather it be a Knight outfit, the blade actually more closely resembles the designs of Wraith's weapons by far. The blade doesn't seem to have a prominent—or any—crossguard, and the blade's weight is frontloaded and extends forward over the fingers. It looks rather similar to his green rarity sickle swords, particularly.
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I feel like this entire thread's comments are missing the point, at least as I seem to understand it—OP is saying that the issue is that stealth killers have little to no reason to exist with such powerful stealth options available to every killer, stealth options that are often better than those of the stealth killers in question. Maybe I'm misreading it, but it seems more like OP cares that stealth killers are severely underpowered than that other killers have stealth options, Unforeseen is just so exceptional in this purpose that it highlights the issue.
And they'd have a point—Why, on earth, would you play a character with no chase power or map presence(ironically probably bar the Pig now), when you could pick one of the many superior killers with potent rushdown or macro abilities AND have better, almost faultless stealth?
[It bothers me greatly that at least one comment also says this is fine because stealth killers aren't fun, when perhaps that is the issue that needs fixing? Doesn't it make more sense to make those killers functional in the modern game rather than to replace their niche entirely with perks?]
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@SirXenomorph said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3689158#Comment_3689158
Because other than killers who do not need to do that the chance is higher these killers tend not to use it in a extrem overdose. Like when they hunt, they most likely would not just look in the locker because they hunt which makes the whole game more fair. When Trickster or Huntress do hunt they use their knives or axes and when they are empty and they decide to get some refill the survivor, which had then the time to maybe escape or hide while the killer stop hunting, will not be safe because of ultimate weapon. It makes and already overpowered killer much more overpowered. And YES they are overpowered, especially after the update.
It is just not good, cause other killers need to think to look in lockers on purpose to do that and tend more to not do it so often, like these two does. Since they need to look in the lockers it is just to extrem. Do you understand me here? It is the NEED against the THINK. While other killers have to think about it and when to do it, the other both just do it, because they need to. Which made the whole perk here just to heavily extrem. Since in that way they do not have to care to use it wisely because they just spam it on every refill, while the ultimate weapon can be triggered.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3689203#Comment_3689203
Yea all fine. The change sound at least much better to be honest. We will see how it works out. I am curious about that. My complaint also is more about the ultimate weapon before it was changed now.
Yes, they do need to reload, thus meaning they will be looking in lockers more. I know that. I am fully aware of HOW this combo works on those killers. You have not explained to me WHY it is bad design that these killers have synergy with a perk. Everyone knows they need to reload, WHY is it bad design that they can choose to use one of their four perk slots to give them benefits when they reload?
What about Darkness Revealed? Is that a problem, or just Ultimate Weapon? I frankly suspect you don't know what you even really take issue with, and just don't like Ultimate Weapon as a perk—that's fine! Just short of everyone hates Ultimate Weapon's current design! Do not conflate that with powers synergizing with perks being a bad thing.
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@SirXenomorph said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3689018#Comment_3689018
Still a difference on the thing with the Unknown. Since he is not in NEED to kick the gens. Is it really that hard to understand? The Huntress and Trickster NEED to look into lockers.
Don't condescend me. WHAT is the actual issue with them using locker-based perks? What makes that unhealthy? Yes, they NEED to reload at lockers. Yes, the perk activates at lockers when they reload. WHY is that an issue?
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Yeah, is there something intrinsically wrong with smartly choosing a perk that makes it so instead of just disrupting those killers' pressure, reloading also lets you find survivors easier? Should Nemesis not benefit from perks like Thwack and Game Afoot with his tentacle break, should Unknown not get to use Nowhere to Hide with his hallucination teleport?
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@MoNosEmpire said:
From a survivors POV, if I don't run at least 2 solo gen rush perks I am usually dead before the game ends because most random teammates refuse to do gens.
Perks that aren't meta also just don't do enough. This usually means that these specific perks are fun to use but don't help the game in any way whatsoever.
For example, friendly competition. From my POV it's a fun perk, but in almost all of my matches with randoms they refuse to 2 stack a gen or once they have the perk they run off and do nothing with it.
Other perks that should be fun to use also punish you for using it, for example potential energy, you have to take a reduced amount of gen speed to initially hit max stacks, then you have to transport it to another gen, then you also have to make sure you don't get hit or you will lose the entirety of your progress, there's also missing a skill check that removes some tokens as well, 4 disadvantages and 1 gain where a killer is heavily able to 3 gen camp? It makes 0 sense.
Teamwork perks definitely need another look at too because I feel like you are punished when you should be benefitting from them, some require you to stay in a specific distance between each other but also force you to guess how far this is, a simple blue circle around the 2 survivors using the perk (and only them seeing it) could easily resolve an issue like this.
I personally think perks should feel powerful but not oppressive, and with most perks they just lack at doing even that.
100% I do. Unless I play with my friends most of my teammates lack the mental capacity to pass one skill check, let alone do gens at all—or go to unhook someone before they hit stage three, on their first hook. It's less that I need to run ALL meta, it's that I need at least Plot Twist for a self heal and Prove as a way of forcing my teammates to think "HM GENERATOR GOOD" to not get stomped. Unless I'm with my friends. I still run Plot Twist, then, because it is also a really fun perk.
And as a killer, I'm just saying I have never seen survivors that don't play in a way that's caked in grime and Distortion. Every time I try to play a killer I enjoy in spite of being weak I am met with the most obnoxious gameplay possible. Now, I'm not saying all survivors play like that, that's ridiculous. I'm just saying survivors have not proved such a thing wrong yet.
This game does an impeccable job of matching you with survivors that make you regret playing this game for fun.
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@BluSaph said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3685816#Comment_3685816
He can consistently get hits through pallets, that's an EXTREMELY strong ability that people seem to overlook. And tier 3 doesn't take long at all with the right add-ons, you can get there in just a few chases.
I mean, it's alright. But it's very weak compared to other chase powers, and also requires he hit you three times to get a down the first and often second time around. It'll get you some hits you wouldn't have gotten otherwise, but outside of situations where you can come at a pallet from a good angle it won't do you any good at all. It's nothing compared to, say, Executioner's power, even if you overlook the fact that can get you hits through walls rather than just over pallets. Nemesis' power is okay. And that's not good enough to warrant taking away zombies.
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Nemesis' chase power isn't good.
Like, even if we assume the zombies work for anything with any consistency--they don't--Nemesis doesn't have a good chase power so he kinda needs it. His power is 6m range, that's like, the same as a lunge, I think? And it's only six meters in tier 3--which can take a while to reach. His ability to break pallets is alright. His strengths are all wildly overstated, so if you only left him with his tentacle, he'd probably be worse than he is now and he is really bad right now.
I'm not gonna deny he needs a rework, but I feel like the zombies are the least offensive part of his kit? They can be annoying, but like, only once every five games when they decide to do anything. I'd rather they were less of a 'random chance of annoying one guy in particular' mechanic, but they're really the least of Nemesis' issues.
(I know opening my reply to a post about the zombies with talking about the other half of the power is really weird. in my defense it is 3 AM)
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I think we've had too many fun original killers since Dredge. They need to ruin something, and sadly it looks like Twins are next--I can just FEEL it, you know? They've done too good a job actually satisfying the crowd of people who like non-dash attack killers, so it's time for Twins to get the ax.
In reality, I'm... Optimistic, but in a denial sort of way. I choose to believe they're going to actually address the fact Twins are incapable of hooking survivors in a reasonable manner, that they're useless in the face of antislugging perks, maybe even that they've removed cool techs that they used to be able to do and in doing so made Victor prone to exploding for literally no reason sometimes. But that's probably not what's going to happen--Twins are a unique killer with the ability to apply strong macro pressure. Survivors hate that, and most killers don't play Twins, so it's gonna be like five people who actually know anything about the killer trying to be heard over a tide of people who have no idea what is going on literally ever.
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@sinkra said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3684476#Comment_3684476
It practically does make the game unplayable when someone on your team uses it though. Try using it yourself and see if you can escape.
The perk is in a functional state. It works entirely as designed. If your teammates suck at using it, then that's unfortunate, but that isn't grounds for deactivation. No Mither doesn't get kill-switched, and the selling point of that perk is being injured forever.
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That's not what the kill-switch is for. The kill-switch is exclusively to be used to shut down something that is currently bugged in such a way it makes the match completely or practically unplayable for one side, somehow. It is not something used on things that are perceived as bad.
Think Weaving Spiders is bad all you want, but it won't be kill-switched, because it is functional.
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Philosophically, yes, maybe it's even worse now with bots, but technically, no, it is different in BHVR's eyes.
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@Clee said:
This is why the game sucks.
They give us a niche perk, you try to run it, have a bit of fun, and spoil sports want to bleed you out for it.
Be the change.......
Ah, yes, the classic "Countering my abilities is toxic" argument. Always glad to see it come back around, it's like an old friend at this point.
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3678075#Comment_3678075
Everytime I post things about Skull merchant I get my posts deleted
Now, why is that?
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@D3spair said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3678143#Comment_3678143
Bruh, No Manual Reload? There's like 7 Seconds of Cooldown between each shot. Good Survivors can just stare him down so Weakness can go away in like 9 seconds. You have like 2 Seconds window hitting Good Survivors. You also can't control where you place his Hallucinations.
You also can't just go M2 every game, unlike the actual A tier Killers. He's low B tier.
Well, for one you want to avoid line of sight, and try getting hits around/through walls with the AoE/bounce. Sometimes you want to take otherwise unoptimal routes to stay out of sight, and if you hit someone who can't even see you, of course they won't lose weakness. As for his impeccable, instantaneous teleports, you can also weaken a survivor and then teleport while they're waiting to juke your projectile. He's pretty damn good.
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@Lynxx said:
Pretty much players who just want easy games play her. I really cannot have any respect for them whatsoever.
Edit: It's a pity about her reputation (well earned thanks to certain people) - I wanted to main her at one point but gave that up quickly after seeing her in all her 'glory'.
This statement's funny. Especially when another comment in this thread is saying "I play her less than I would otherwise entirely because survivors don't bother".
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@Bloodwebs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3678009#Comment_3678009
SO you're basing your evidence on one player's knowledge? Right. Don't think that's reasonable
Well, that post was just funny, that's not actually the whole of it. Telling, though, it was very typical.
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@Snowbawlzzz said:
"Skill expression" is not a warrant for a redesign. Legion has tons of fans and he has one of the lowest skill ceilings in the game. Balance problems are what actually warrants redesigns.
I'm not going to argue it's the sole point that warrants a redesign, but it is a significant factor--Being unable to do anything to interact with the killer is bad, and how survivors interact with killer powers has been a constant issue for balance. Many would argue there aren't any real ways to interact with Blight and Nurse's powers, because they are so overwhelming. Legion's power itself has a low skill ceiling, but Legion has to be competent with the fundamentals of the game instead, you can interact with him.
I should also specify my concern is more that a power is interactive than it is skill expressive. I'm not exactly as concerned with techs and flicks and whatever as I am concerned with the killer's ability to interact with the survivor and the survivor's ability to do the same with the killer. Survivors can meaningfully try to throw off Huntress and Deathslinger, they can reasonably try to juke the Demogorgon's shred, but you can't interact with Spirit or Trickster in any real way, and they don't ever engage in the fundamentals of chase in DbD.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3678063#Comment_3678063
I like playing Legion, but I am also objective enough to admit that their power is...not great.
It's pretty unfun for Survivors, weak for the Killer and can't really receive meaningful buffs without it being OP.
But what makes the power bad? I'm not gonna say it's necessarily fun to go against. I'd like it if there were ways to bypass the KI if even only for a short period of time so that Legion could find your general location and then had to, like, search lockers or look for you crouching in a bush, and your KI was more intermittent while crouching and hiding, but Legion does still have to actually try downing you, there's effort put into chasing. There are ways to interact with Legion, you can even do things in chase during Frenzy--even if they're not amazing options--which you can't say about Trickster or Spirit.
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@OneGoodBoyDemo said:
Honestly, I don't know what's going through your heads. How do you feel about choosing her in the lobby knowing that a player will automatically give up?
Seriously, every time I face a Skull Merchant people either commit suicide or DC. You already win the game the moment someone finds out it's you and in the end there doesn't end up being any game at All because it ended before it started.
I don't know why you choose her knowing that you won't even be able to play a game with her.
I like her gameplay. It's unique, and I tend to like both stealth and setplay characters. If survivors are too much of brats to play the game, then that's fine--I think it's kinda funny.
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I would like to add, as a sidenote, that I would be completely fine if they scrapped the whole of Nemesis' power and gave him one that is actually fitting to his character in any way and makes him better than actual garbage. General dislike for ground-up reworks aside he could get one he's kind of terrible
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3678049#Comment_3678049
I saw a fun idea once for Main Event that it'd be sort of a stance-change for different kinds of knives. Fanning them out horizontally or vertically was the example given, but I think you could drill down on that to hit Trickster's "flashy stage presence" vibe in a power that's a little more interesting than More Dakka.
Actually, I didn't put it in the original post 'cause I didn't have it fully fleshed out in my head, but I was gonna suggest making Trickster a stance character like how Doctor used to be, with a Dancing mode where he'd maybe have some sort of a stepdash or something, and then the knife stance, or maybe the dancing stance would have him do some sort of dash when he threw a knife and the other would give him ricochet knives. Trickster could totally work as a stance character, and if they went for that ME could make the stepdash knives ricochet, or something. I think that would be a good general direction for him, the more I think about it.
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@jesterkind said:
I think this is a little reductive when it comes to Trickster - there is skill expression in his kit from the killer side, aim and positioning are important to playing him well - but I would have a hard time arguing against the broad strokes of the topic for either killer.
In general I'm wary to invoke full on, ground-up reworks. I think that was a bad thing when it happened to Freddy and was only barely acceptable when it happened to Skull Merchant, I don't like the concept at all- but even with that in mind, Spirit especially really is kind of a nightmare.
I'm not sure how to fix the problem, but the problem definitely exists.
Also, my sincerest condolences on you having said the words "Skull Merchant" and thus guaranteeing half the responses are going to be blind incoherent rage.
I regret saying they deserve ground-up reworks, to be quite honest, it's just that I think their kits are so shallow altogether that fixing their issues might well wind up being that no matter how hard you try to avoid it. The general concepts of their kits should be preserved, I just think that what I'd change about Main Event, for an example, might as well be a whole new thing entirely.
I think it would be interesting if instead of just being a way to throw a lot of knives really fast, Main Event sort of forced survivors to stay in your lullaby radius, basically making a weird sort of spotlight-magic-wall. The ability would still be meant to make the Trickster more threatening for a very short time, but it would instead be focused on forcing survivors to stay and watch the Trickster, forcing them to give him attention, because I think that just fits his character.
Obviously that would need a lot of exceptions to prevent it from being used as the tunneling/camping ability, and it might not even necessarily be a great idea if you keep it from being used in those ways, but it's a better representation of his character and is more interesting, I think. It just has so little in common with what it is now, that it's not even really the same thing. Maybe I'm just not thinking about it right, admittedly.
I expected more SM hate than I've gotten so far, honestly. Could be worse.
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I don't think we should even have tiers of perks at all.
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What would you say in defense of Spirit and Trickster's designs? What makes them--killers who bypass normal gameplay in a way that lacks any points of interaction--better than two killers who still need to engage in proper chasing while having powers that have some counterplay?
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@Rudjohns said:
Skull Merchant just need to have the drones removed. Nobody likes to be outplayed by AI. Nobody likes to be downed by Nemesis' zombies when turning a corner. Nobody likes the Knight's guardian, making the Knight one of the most hated killers in the game. Skull Merchant is the same thing. It's just brainless gameplay, you get value by pressing a button.
Potentially the greatest piece of evidence supporting my belief that Skull Merchant haters don't know a goddamn thing about what she even does.
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It occurs to me I haven't really done the best job of explaining the issue with Spirit's power, but it's like 2 in the morning so I think that's fair.
Other than being an accessibility issue, any counterplay when you look past that seems entirely theoretical, and you also run into the issue of Spirit not caring about line of sight, or positioning, or anything that other killers have to care about. Making less noise in an attempt to be confusing really just tells her where you are, because that changes the sound you're making, trying to move in a different direction before turning a different way isn't really a meaningful misdirection because if she's close enough for it to matter she's just going to stop phasing and lunge for you. She doesn't need to be incredibly precise with when she exits her power, she just needs to be right enough, and it's a margin of error that doesn't leave any room for interaction.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
The singularity was on the road map to be polished up
That's good. He needs it a good bit. Hopefully they're actually impactful changes--Is that coming alongside the Twins rework or some time later?
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@Royval said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3677416#Comment_3677416
Kicking a gen is the killer’s objective or is it to hook and kill the survivor?
The objective is in fact hooking survivors... Which generates pressure, forcing survivors off generators to unhook. Slowing the progression of generators. The same purpose as gen regression.
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3677424#Comment_3677424
Most people don't know where to place the traps
No, they do. They definitely do. He's still bad, even if you have good trap placement.
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What exactly do you mean? Killers DO have basekit regression in the form of the break action. I assume that's not satisfying, so what exactly is your proposal for making basekit regression stronger without making regression perks unfair?
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@Rudjohns said:
Trapper just need smarter players playing as him
...You wanna back that take up? Trapper is universally recognized as incredibly weak, due to trading any semblance of early game pressure for easily-defused late game pressure, and has no real ability to play in the moment or apply pressure in chase. What makes him just the greatest skill issue of all time?
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3677375#Comment_3677375
I don't think you should be able to
A) Escape from a trap. survivor should automatic a survivor into dying state. This empowers SWF gameplay and action so simple that even soloq can save teammates caught in traps.
2) Be able to disable traps in 2 seconds. trap disarming should be unrewarding mechanic. Trap disarming should take 20 seconds. Current mechanic Empowers SWF to just follow trap and disarm his power into an m1 killer and the action is so simple that a single soloq play could do it. Most don't do it but it doesn't change fact that SWF vs trapper is unfun gameplay experience.
I think those are a bit--or, in the second point's case, way--too much. I would like to see the honing stone effect apply to injured survivors, but I think if it just left healthy survivors injured or with deep wound, that would be fine.
20 seconds to disarm is, I feel, ludicrous. I am more in favor of making bloody coil basekit, as that is a more interesting change--making it potentially risky to disarm traps. Making it take 20 seconds technically increases the risk, but in a very obnoxious and uninteresting way. (To prevent someone injured from doing all of the disarming, injured survivors could be inflicted with deep wound after disarming traps.)
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3677221#Comment_3677221
Then how would you fix that problem?
Your changes are some QoL but don’t address any of the core issues.
Well, I think it would involve more of a full rework which I wasn't intending to suggest here, and I also think it's something of an overstated issue. I don't know if I could really think of anything that wouldn't either involve a massive overhaul to his power at a base level, which would be unnecessary, or something that might be too much or too little. Like, making it so pallet stuns get rid of them is a trade that is severely out of favor for survivors, but say, adding an item survivors could pick up outside hunts and use to kill guards would run into similar issues to Singularity, if possibly worse.
Maybe survivors could pick up the banner before it's fully charged and take a few seconds off the guard's hunt, meaning they could either take the easier, low reward version of the banner or risk waiting for it to fully charge. Though, this only really affects the Carnifex, as the banner spawns incredibly fast for the other two as it is. Maybe the method of getting rid of guards could be guard specific. I don't have any single solid suggestion I'd be satisfied with, not off the top of my head. I think keeping Knight from getting important QoL just because he has one issue--which is only an issue, I'd argue, because of how Knight is encouraged to drop guards without drawing a path right now--is a bad idea.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3677194#Comment_3677194
I can see what you mean about less interaction, but the only interaction we’re losing is the Knight pinning the survivor with him and his guard and isn’t that the entire interaction we’re trying to prevent?
If we didn’t do that how would we solve that unhealthy part of his kit?
I figured the more interactivity we’d be gaining would be actually getting hits from well placed guards feeling rewarding. If they phased out we could also make his haste scale based on guard placement as well. Meaning giving him some strong chase on someone else while the guards focusing someone else.
That's not the unhealthy part of his kit. If you wanted to say something was unhealthy, the unhealthy part is that survivors can only meaningfully interact with guards in one way. Removing Knight from that equation makes him less fun for both sides and also bad.
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@Blueberry said:
I posted a long winded discussion on Knights issues and how to fix him. I’m just gonna link it to respond to yours since it’s a lot to have to retype that all every time. Everyone hates facing him but no one seems interested in discussing fixing them unfortunately. This is how I’d fix him per your topic.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/407956/fixing-the-knight
I don't think preventing the Knight or other survivors from playing around a guard's targeted survivor is a good idea at all. Removing that makes him far less interactive on both sides, as well as probably just making Knight... Really bad.
As for the first suggestion, it'd be nice for applying pressure to generators and things, but I think that the guards getting buffed in relation to the length of their patrol path works better, both for chasing and as a more consistent way to buff applying pressure from afar. Guards already only barely catch survivors with their patrol radius.
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@Dreamnomad said:
I think that survivors should have a 90 second debuff at the start of the match making it so they have like 40% slower progress on repairing generators and they are unable to disarm traps during this time. The debuff ends prematurely if a survivor is put in the dying state from an offensive action by trapper (can't just plot twist to end it). Just to give the Trapper a little bit of time at the start of the match to start setting traps up. That's all he really needs.
I don't really know how I feel about this on a few fronts, least significant being that I'd contest the claim he only needs more time to set up.
I feel like Trapper sacrificing the early game a bit is an intended flaw, it's something he's designed to try and work around with a strong snowball in the later game. More importantly, I don't think making the early game take longer is a great idea. Survivors don't really have other things to do, they're just holding M1 for a longer period of time--or, they're going to go find and harass the Trapper and interrupt his setup. I've actually always seen Corrupt as a perk that's counterproductive for this reason on Trapper, he doesn't get anything from that early slowdown. He wants late game pressure, and if survivors are pushed into his territory before he's set up, he doesn't really get to play the game at all. He's more in need of a smoother setup process, and a way to really initiate that pressure, be that a tool to be more capable of a strong snowball or a way to redirect survivors towards traps by force.
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@Lynxx said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3676328#Comment_3676328
They're asking for a fair test of skill - large aoe globes that can be fired off every few seconds and go through walls nullifies any of that.
AoE spheres that are completely counterable and require good prediction to hit through walls or around corners. You can't run against the Unknown quite normally--but if you can't adapt to that, then you probably deserve to take the hit. Not only do the more advanced shots require considerable skill that survivors can attempt to predict and play around, but Unknown also has to hit three or more times with its power. It is a fair contest of skill, it's just not the same contest of skill as with some other killers.
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@Alcuin said:
These two, in particular, are playing by their own rules by having one foot in the FPS genre (range attcak) but not the other ("close enough" isn't supposed to grant max damage). The shotgun user that clips the outer right thigh of the opponent should not be doing the same damage as the shotgun user that reliably gets headshots. Skill's rewarded and you're given what you've earned.
In DBD, some hits are more equal than others (outside of one shots, Legion, Trickster's knives). The beach ball projectile that clips the border of your Survivor's capsule-shaped hitbox is worth a health state as much as a direct, centered melee attack. One hit is true and the other is given the benefit of the doubt. If the hitboxes are not going to change, maybe it's time to register these really fringy projectile hits as partial damage like Trickster's knives and only reward direct hits with full health states.
And concerning the new Killer, if Unknown's design had been based on a rogue military general with a grenade launcher and not a goofy neon pink orb, the power would be really hard to defend. When Nemesis was teased, there was speculation that he'd have an RPG. People figured it would be OP, though, even if he could only tier up to the power on occasion like Myers or Oni. There's a short cooldown for Unknown.
DBD, at its core, is a slasher game and not a shooter game. Huntress and Unknown are playing in an FPS world with DBD rules, though, and it feels cheap. This update is about them. 10 hatchets on new gen or MnK, there's no reward at the end for the Survivor. You're going to go down even if you dodge 8 hatchets in a minute. Same thing for the orb attack. 95-99% of the playerbase will be better playing as Unknown than playing against him. It's like playing Zero Build Fortnite without a weapon going against an opponent with a grey grenade launcher. The venom is not that good but it's still going to down the Survivor pretty quickly. Especially when people learn all the angles and nuances of the power.
Many slasher and monster films prominently feature ranged weaponry, as it establishes the idea that the pursuer is a threat even from a distance. We've seen Jason use a bow and arrow before. Horror characters can attack from afar just fine without ruining the tone of their work, and usually, the idea the killer can attack you from afar adds to a feeling of being vulnerable. Huntress, the Deathslinger, and now the Unknown really play into this well. The former two can't move as fast as other killers, but the sheer range of their attacks means survivors feel constant pressure anyway. It's good for the horror. Unknown not only can't hit directly, but he needs to hit upwards of three times to down you with his projectile. You could argue the projectile itself is Unknown's problem, and while I have my gripes a potentially-alien, potentially-bioweapon, potentially-whatever creature firing an unusual substance that affects the mind seems entirely in line with the genre.
Besides, Huntress' projectiles have no splash damage. That's not what that term means. Splash damage refers to an area of effect that follows or surrounds a main projectile. Huntress' hatchets just have a large hitbox to compensate for the fact they'd be pretty sucky otherwise. Unknown's AoE also isn't too wide as to be undodgeable, and the projectile bounces? The mere details of his projectile open up plenty of opportunities for skilled play on both sides.
Not every killer has to play the same.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3673958#Comment_3673958
The problem with your proposed change is it would still leave him as very weak.
What makes these changes not enough, though? They still help cover his weaknesses without, you know, removing them entirely, making him bland? A killer should have flaws and things that can be punished, you know.
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@jesterkind said:
I don't think Trapper does need better grass, personally. Think about it- that means one of two things. Either every future map needs to bend around having consistent dark grass no matter what the aesthetic is, just for one killer's power, or every future map is going to have specific dark patches that are basically neon signs saying "Traps here!"
Rather, I'd sooner see his traps get changed to better fit in with the design of each map, as you alluded to in the post. That's a good start, that helps him, but he'd need a few more things.
First, adjust trap spawns again. What he has isn't actually that bad, but it could be improved. Have the traps spawn on the same side of the map as him, trending towards the centre, so he doesn't have to lose specific traps due to them being on the other side of a giant map or anything. I'd also suggest having them spawn in regular trap spots so you could choose to just arm them and move on, but that'd probably require lots of manual effort for each map, so I understand that's not very feasible.
Second, make traps automatically re-arm if he grabs a survivor out of them. Hitting a survivor is quicker and applies basic attacks, but would now leave the trap closed, whereas grabbing a survivor would be slower and open the trap up again. Just... some reason to use that interaction that isn't bloodpoints, is my thought.
Third, do an addon pass more geared around giving him interesting effects that aren't just status effects. For instance, a high rarity addon that gives him Undetectable when a trap is disarmed, or when he sets one. Things like that. Funky effects he could play around more, instead of flat buffs to his current gameplan.
That's about all I'd suggest to start. If you want crazy wacky stuff, I did once propose that Trapper force every map to have thick ankle-height fog to better hide his traps, but that would have some logistical concerns, so I don't tend to suggest it too seriously lol.
I guess I've never thought about how it'd hamstring map design. I have, before, suggested making traps somewhat transparent, so they would naturally blend in, and maybe they get harder to see the farther from a trap you are, but I don't know how you'd explain that as not totally just magic and also if I like the idea of removing a survivor's ability to spot a trap from afar. I more like the map-specific foliage idea.
I always feel iffy about more major changes to power concepts--bar Nemesis--because my issue isn't that I dislike Trapper's general gameplay or some of his technical simplicity, it's more that I think his power fails to represent his character in any interesting way. He just doesn't feel like the physical apex enforcer he is in his lore and is more... The guy with traps. Which, yeah, is the name, but it just seems a little weak, right?
@Blueberry said:
Both ultra rares in his base kit and start with all traps on him. That might sound very extreme, but that's how bad he is. I won't play him unless I'm running both, it just makes him playable.
I don't like this idea on several levels. I like the idea of folding them in partially, but more likely IriStone's effect should trigger when you damage a survivor--rewarding good chasing rather than just sitting around. Having him start with every trap just incentivizes setting up a 3gen even harder. I prefer the idea of checking a locker to get the farthest trap from you on a cooldown, if you want to give him that consistency, or just improved trap spawn logic.
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I honestly doubt there's any way to get a genuinely constructive consensus on SM. People are very poisoned-well about her. People will say "scrap the entire power" as if that's constructive or realistic. I think some changes are warranted, but "the killer fundamentally doesn't work so get rid of her" is honestly kind of stupid as a mindset. It's neither viable or even really correct.
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To be constructive, rather than just complaining, I'd like to suggest adding three mechanics--I know that sounds like a lot--to the power, without actually removing anything.
1)Give the Nemesis a second form of special attack, the Tentacle Scythe--as it appears in REsistance--which is targeted not unlike Cenobite's chain or Nurse's blink, attacking at a distance of 10-16 meters. This specific range makes it so survivors can't just mindlessly take any escape route they're presented, and instead need to operate closer than they would like, sort of referencing Nemesis' constant targeting of Jill's escape routes.
2)Allow Nemesis to empower zombies for 60 seconds, giving them a much better attack range. Simultaneously, make zombies more capable of tracking infected survivors and chase them faster.
3)Give the T-Virus a sort of progression system. After 40 seconds, infected survivors are intermittently inflicted with the exhausted status, and after 60 seconds, they're oblivious for similar intermittent periods. Also, allow him to kill infected survivors by his own hand if they're on death hook. Mostly for flavor.
Spitballing. I'd frankly rather he be totally reworked. But, I like to think this would be... Better. Not perfect, but better.
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@Ariel_Starshine said:
Heeey RE resistance is my favorite game! He's so scary in that game I love it. I was always Valerie and he'd chase me haha good times.
In this game he seems like a big doofus, and yeah he's not scary, he's silly to me. But I'm glad he's at least in dbd :)
I'm glad he's here, I just wish he felt like himself... Also hope he gets more skins. Like, I may prefer his modern design but they GOTTA add his classic design, right?
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The Xenomorph doesn't have EVERYTHING, sure, but you can't say it has nothing, not at all. It has that sort of skulking, omnipresent vibe, it does have the spirit of turning a mostly familiar environment into somewhere a hostile presence could be anywhere. It has elements of the Xenomorph beyond the surface level.