apathyinc
apathyinc
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The devs NEVER said bleed outs are counted as kills. Never, not even once.
They did say that the killer rating result specifically tallies kills, and it's proven that it does not count bleed outs as kills. This screen uses the game's own ruleset to determine the kills.
If bleed outs were counted as kills a new player could come in and have no idea that they were supposed to hook someone (even though there are picture diagrams showing to do this) and just knock down every one and bleed them out. If they did this every match they would soon be facing the best players in the game without even grasping basic gameplay concepts.
I understand that there is no convincing you and I no longer care to try.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3429954#Comment_3429954
Yes, because that's literally how its coded and how the system works.
I don't see why its so hard for you to understand.
His MMR wasn't lowered for bleedouts, matchmaking just sucks.
Here is why it's hard for me to understand what you are saying:
- I linked a source of the devs saying where kills are tallied
- I showed that bleeding out a survivor decreases from that kill tally
- Anyone can bleed out survivors or bots to confirm this how it works
- I pointed out how bleed outs don't count for adept or challenges
- Gave an example (and I'll provide the details if you want) of someone using bleed outs to abuse MMR
The source that you linked is a wiki that can be edited by anyone, my sources were this site and the game itself. The devs have said over and over they won't give the details of how the MMR is calculated other than it's based off kills and bleed outs aren't being counted as kills by the game.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3429862#Comment_3429862
Sure, but that's only in regard to the endscreen/achievement system, not MMR.
This is literally data pulled form the game itself, its how the game is coded and it lines up with what we knew before.
Bleedouts are kills for MMR. But they don't count for the words on the endscreen which is a completely different system. That change was made for achievements, as it sates in the source you yourself gave, and changed nothing about the MMR system.
There's no debating that, those are the facts, bleedouts are kills for MMR as coded in the game by the devs and hasn't been changed. It's the same as before outside of achievements.
They are 2 separate, unrelated, isolated, uninteracting systems. Anything and everything on the endscreen has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the win condition or the MMR system. Including the "_ killer" part.
To clean things up, the result you get after a match will now be tied directly to kills.
To clean things up, the result you get after a match will now be tied directly to kills.
To clean things up, the result you get after a match will now be tied directly to kills.
To clean things up, the result you get after a match will now be tied directly to kills.
So what you are saying is that even though game does not recognize a bleed out as being a kill in ANY way, somehow it still is.
A while back there was a TTV who would do nothing but bleed out survivors, match after match. He has been banned on Twitch, these forums, Reddit, Steam and who knows what else. He would go through hundreds of matches without anyone escaping through the gates or hatch, yet somehow he ALWAYS seemed to play against new players. This was happening because the excessive use of bleed outs were keeping his MMR low. Kills are tied directly to MMR, bleed outs aren't considered kills by the game, and they drastically reduce MMR if abused.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3429563#Comment_3429563
See this is exactly what I thought was happening. Listen, the scores at the end of the game screen are absolutely 100% irrelevant to your MMR. It's a completely different system. You're getting them confused.
Your grade/rank is not your MMR.
As said above, the wiki datamines the information from the game itself, and as far as the devs have stated in their dev streams and post across time, the only things that don't count are DC's and escapes, with hatch being neutral.
So its confirmed that bleedouts are indeed kills and we can put this to rest.
"Whether a Survivor died because of being sacrificed, being killed by the Killer's own hand, or being bled-out, or even how many times they were hooked, is of no concern to the MMR system, they will all count as kills."
@Nazzzak just tagging you here so you can also see since you were looking for the information as to maybe save you wasted time.
This has nothing to do with the scores, emblems or blood points. This has to do with the words. These words ONLY change based on number of kills and that specific first page of the post match system reflects what happened.
MERCILESS KILLER = 4K
RUTHLESS KILLER = 3K
BRUTAL KILLER = 1K or 2K
THE ENTITY HUNGERS = 0K
If you bleed out a survivor it DEDUCTS from your killer rating. MMR is based on kills, if you kill a survivor your MMR goes up, if you don't kill a survivor your MMR goes down. Bleeding out a survivor is clearly shown IN THE GAME as not being the same as killing them by sacrifice or mori. A killer does not get a kill by bleeding out a survivor, and if it's not a kill it's a loss. Abusing this is how some killers tank their MMR intentionally.
Edited: to throw in the below sauce
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/369
Merciless Killer
Finally, we have a small update to Merciless Killer ratings. These ratings are currently tied to the grades system, where a double pip earns you a Merciless Killer result and the corresponding adept Killer achievement/trophy. Unfortunately, this means that as your grade increases, it becomes harder to earn these achievements. Since the emblem system has transitioned to a monthly ladder, it no longer makes as much sense for match results to be based on them.
To clean things up, the result you get after a match will now be tied directly to kills.
- 0 Kills: The Entity Hungers…
- 1-2 Kills: Brutal Killer
- 3 Kills: Ruthless Killer
- 4 Kills: Merciless Killer
With this change, the requirement for a Merciless Killer rating is much clearer and remains the same regardless of your grade. This will also make Killer adept achievements a similar level of difficulty to their Survivor counterparts.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3429236#Comment_3429236
Can you give me a source? Afaik the only thing that doesn't count as a kill is an escape (obviously) and a DC.
All the info I can find just says as long as they die your MMR goes up, it doesn't matter how.
Here is how it works, this quote comes from patch 6.5.0:
Merciless Killer
- Moving forward, getting 4 Kills will earn the Killer a Merciless Killer rating, rather than the previous requirement of a double pip.
The MMR system is based on kills and escapes and the very first post match tally screen will tell a player if they made kills. If a player kills 4 survivors (by sacrifice or mori) , they will get a Merciless Killer rating. If they kill 3 survivors and bleed out 1, they will get a Ruthless killer. If they bleed out 2 or 3, they will get a Brutal Killer. Bleed out 4 and they get "The Entity Hungers".
This shows that the game doesn't consider bleed outs as actual kills. A killer can't get an adept achievement if they bleed out even 1 survivor or advance a tome achievement for killing X survivors by any means. And if a killer doesn't get kills, their MMR goes down.
If anyone still doubts this, they can load up a game with bots, bleed them out and see for themselves.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3429217#Comment_3429217
The score and the win condition are different, hence why MMR and the emblems are separated. You can even kill the survivors too quickly to get a good score. You still won the game in the eyes of the MMR system the same as if you had a 12 hook game.
Bleeding them out is still a kill and still counts towards the win con and the MMR considering it a win afaik.
Hook rescues and picking someone up from the floor are pretty much the same thing. The only real currently relevant difference is needing to wait after everyone alive is on the floor, which Is why I suggested a small timer to allow for perks like UB, then having them all be taken if no one gets up.
Bleeding out 4 survivors lowers your MMR. Bleeding out 4 survivors doesn't give you any score points either. Bleeding out a survivor is a loss in both emblem and MMR land.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3428955#Comment_3428955
Not necessarily, there's still the chance to unhook yourself on first stage or wiggle off. The safest and most logical option most of the time is for the killer to just let them bleed out and not risk the 4% or a wiggle off or a perk like power struggle. Securing the win.
If past 1st stage, then you'll all get sacrificed anyway.
There should be no reason to not just let them get sacrificed on the spot like I suggested, it just saves everyone time.
The survivors don't need "a way out" they already lost. So just skip the wait and go to the loss.
Slugging for kills is still getting kills, which at the end of the day is the win condition for the killer. Not hooks. But it not taking up to 4 minuets once there's no chance of the survivors winning would be nice.
Blood points don't matter.
Also you're basically asking for some form of basekit unbreakable. No mither is essentially just unlimited unbreakable with broken. So idk why you're trying to say you're not asking for it when you are, even if conditional.
The problem here is with the bleeding out though, not slugging. Kills are the win condition, but the game doesn't consider bleed outs as kills and deducts them from the kill score post game. Bleed out one and you can't get a Merciless Killer, 4 bleed outs give a "Entity Hungers". The OP is just wanting to participate in normal gameplay.
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@KateMain86 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3426647#Comment_3426647
I think that idea was intended for the last survivor and also I don't think anyone really liked that idea anyway.
I look at the situation as the killer won if they decide to hook you, but if they simply refuse to do anything at that point the survivors should be able to get another chance. Killers shouldn't be rewarded when they refuse to play the game after everyone is down. There is no need to waste people's time because someone gets a kick out of doing nothing while the survivors are left on the ground until a progress bar depletes all the way.
The weird part is that a killer isn't rewarded for bleeding out a survivor. They don't get any blood points other than a few points for "bleeding" and the bleed outs don't count as kills as their killer rating will go down from "Merciless Killer" to "Ruthless Killer" with one bleed out.
It is a way to decrease MMR though, so maybe people are bleeding out survivors for that. 4 bleed outs will get an "Entity Hungers" rating which is considered as 4 losses in MMR world.
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I just go by the scoreboard, whoever is top score wins.
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Jack the Ripper would be awesome, but only if he has a Loch Ness Monster cosmetic outfit.
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Good players don't need to rely on any specific perk, addon, map setup, or power to be good. If something is over relied on and overused to inflate a player's skill level, it should be nerfed.
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The answer lies somewhere between "I must win every game at all costs" and "I'm not even going to try"
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@almofan1001 said:
I see a lot of survivors complaining about killers running anti-gen builds and claiming it is "boring", "you don't need anti-gen perks if you are good at the game" or "excuse for being bad at the game" etc.
Do you know how miserable the game would be WITHOUT killers running anti-gen builds?
Without antigen builds:
1 Most of the games would consist only of top-tier killers (Nurse, Blight, and maybe Huntress)
2 Tunneling and Camping would be increased even more to the point where the majority of killers would hardcore tunnel and camp every game
3 Less Diversity of Killers
4 Increased Survivor Queue Times
5 More "Toxic" Killer Playstyles
Antigen builds are what actually make the game somewhat interactive instead of tunnel and camping every game— it incentives the killer to pressure the map in different areas. Killers actually get rewarded for playing well and none of the antigen perks are OP by any means (hint: Eruption isn't OP - 3 gen is strong, not Eruption by itself). Additionally, weaker killers actually have a chance to play Dead by Daylight.
If you think the game is "boring" with most killers running antigen builds, then you are really underestimating how boring it can actually get. If you take one thing that actually rewards the killer for playing well, then don't be surprised that killers would play the scummy way possible.
If you so desperately want killers not to run antigen builds, then your best bet is to make antigen perks base kit and remove anti-gen perks completely from the game.
Antigen builds are fine and actually makes this whole unbalanced game more balanced & fun for BOTH sides.
This seems a bit out of touch. All the things you have listed under "WITHOUT ANTIGEN BUILDS" happen now with most killers running 4 antigen perks.
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@EntitySpawn said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3282214#Comment_3282214
You legit tried saying I'm no good... you said it's a me problem.
And if you could actually read half the stuff then you probably would understand.
I have the adepts, that dont take away the fact its luck of getting bad survivors not skill.
I dunno I'd be pretty embarrassed to lose to a adept killer because it's not hard to do gens or loop when they're so heavily restricted.
But you're right, you're the almighty God who can win any match against good survivors in games less than 5mins long. Best DBD player in the world!
Or maybe you cant tell who is good/bad in this game and dont understand how fast games go with efficient survivors.
But sure I'm the bad one, because getting 10hooks and a 4k but not getting it is definitely a me problem 👌👍
You say you have every adept but complain that they are too much of a hassle to get. At this point you are only typing this crap out to add to your post count.
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@EntitySpawn said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3282069#Comment_3282069
Probably because you dont play at a high level?
Didnt want to have to say that but if you truly believe adepts is just your skill and nothing to do with the survivors it's clear you dont play at the top.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3282082#Comment_3282082
Yes I know it's easier at ash, and I'm not saying I am the only one to go against good players nor am I saying it's the only thing I see so dont twist and strawman.
I am saying it sucks that the adept heavy relies on RNG of the survivors (bad survivors not doing gens and cant loop) more than your own actual skill and I dont like that.
I do have every adept, I'm just saying I dont like how it's just a dice roll till you are matched with a terrible team instead of being possible every match.
Ah the old "you don't play at a high level" defense. Looks like the real problem here is that your skills aren't high enough to do the Adept challenges without taking a few shots to your ego.
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@EntitySpawn said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3282044#Comment_3282044
You're being fooled to think the adept is dependent on you when it's not.
Sure you can learn the power and sure you can get better with them but that doesnt matter with half the roster against any form of good team that does gens and loops.
Your adept relys with the survivors not doing gens, cant loop and make many mistakes
Dude just say "My adept relys with the survivors not doing gens, cant loop and make many mistakes" Own your own play experience, not everyone has the same issues that you do.
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Killer Adepts are one of my favorite things in the game. I don't run any other perks on a killer until I get their Adept challenge done. This helps me learn how to make the most of their power, and then I get an idea of how their perks can synergize with other perks. If I lose matches while I'm doing this, who gives a crap? I don't want to inflate my MMR rating on a killer that I'm only able to win with by using the strongest perks.
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I've played the Knight quite a bit since release and haven't experienced either of those bugs.
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@Devilishly_Rowdy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3271787#Comment_3271787
So killers show "sportsmanship" by not tunneling. How do survivors show sportsmanship though?
It's not about tunneling or throwing yourself at the hook. It's not about killer or survivor. It's about not being a dick to other players.
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Sportsmanship is a pretty great thing. When I play I try to treat others like I'm playing a tabletop game in the same room with them. I like playing the game, so I want to treat people kindly so they will want to keep playing the game with me. If you treat everyone like #########, eventually you will be the only one left playing, all by yourself. But hey, guess you got bots now to keep you company.
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Same issue on PC, specifically the first survivor challenge in the new tome.
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If a player feels that they have to tunnel to win, then they are probably playing out of their MMR skill level. But winning through tunneling will only lock them into higher and higher MMR sweatfests, where they will once again think they have to tunnel to win. If people could just chill out a bit and not be afraid to lose or draw a match the game would be in a much better place.
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I've stopped playing. I still watch streamers and check DbD social media, but I don't know what I'm hoping to see. I think I'm just about done with it. I think the magic that made the game fun for so long is gone.
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The IP I would love to see is The Warriors. I want Warrior outfits for the survivors, Baseball Furies costumes for Trickster and Doctor, and outfits for all the other gangs too. This would be a SWFers dream come true. Can you dig it?
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@HectorBrando said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3212111#Comment_3212111
In her case it was her fault, she could have hooked them so many times but she didnt, she went for slugs even when fully aware they all have Unbreakable, she made horrible decissions and they just kept getting up over and over.
- 0:20 she should have picked Feng plus you can see Claudette running towards the locker, she switches back to Charlotte and can snag someone out of the locker.
- 2:10 she should have picked Feng she could use the corner to avoid the flashlight.
- 2:20 she should have picked Feng after downing Claudette but she went for Jane who didnt have a flashlight, smart move would be pick up Feng, hook in front of the Saloon and then go back to either go after Claudette or Jane after unhook.
- 2:30 again not picking anyone.
- 3:40 same train of actions, downing several people but deciding to not pick anyone, Jane didnt bring a flashlight so its safe to pick up with her around.
- 3:55 again switching to Victor instead of going to pickup someone.
- 4:05 same playstyle, downs someone sees someone else on the distance and goes for them instead of picking up people already downed.
And thats in the first 4 minutes of video, are you telling us this wasnt the Killers fault?.
All that AND she still killed everybody.
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Slugging as a tactic should have a disadvantage, it currently does not and that doesn't flow with how the entity wants people to play. The game's manual and tutorial enforce the "hit, carry, hook" technique to please the entity. Also, bleeding people out is just lame gameplay.
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It still takes 4 minutes to bleed out, 45 seconds to use it 1 time, so you could do it around 5 times? Might be quicker with unbreakable, or slower with mangled effects, but it's not infinite. Killers slug because it's one of the easiest solutions with no big downside, this change makes it less appealing.
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This is a strange game. The only winning move is not to play.
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Reassurance should be able to reach a survivor hooked in the basement from whatever area is right above the hook.
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How long it used to take Trapper and Hag to set their traps. It was like Hag was taking her time drawing a masterpiece work of art on the ground.
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Everyone is running it, so it will get nerfed. This is why we can't have nice things. It will probably get changed to only affect the injured survivor instead of all of them.
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Power Wash Simulator. I wish I could Power Wash the DBD maps and characters. Maybe there will be a crossover.
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It would be cool for hooks to have a perk slot, really make scourge hooks be their own thing.
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A after match indicator on the score tally screen of who joined the game as a SWF.
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Great idea, and change them to show which players are grouped in SWF too.
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Going against Huntress has gotten really old. Every time I hear the lullaby all my will to play is sucked out of the game. I immediately know she is running BBQ, Iron Maiden, Corrupt Intervention, and No Way Out. She is also probably running Infantry Belt and Exhaustion Add-ons. I'm in the same region as a couple popular Huntress streamers and most the time it's one of them. I like those streamers, they kill me often, but damn change it up a bit.
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@Akumakaji said:
There is no "win" condition. We as a community have settled on 0-1K = survivor win, 2k = even match, 3-4k = Killer win, but this has no reflection in game mechanics or anything else. Of course it also feels good to have a 3 or 4k as the killer, better then a 2k, but you shouldn't strife for it every match unless you are willing to sweat the thickest of sweat droplets.
That being said, for the purpose of MMR a bleedout doesn't raise or lower your personal MMR, as well as having no effect on the survivors. Its essentially like a hatch escape, ie a zero sum game. The only events that let your MMR go up or down are individual kills (via hook or mori) or escapes, and the game counts every survivor as a seperate game, with the caveat that the first kill counts fully and subsequent kills factor in less and less, as a 4K becomes more likely the more survivors bite the bullet.
Lastly, some people seem to be a bit obsessed with their MMR score and how to raise it. Higher MMR doesnt make you cooler, as you can't show the number to other players and brag about it, higher MMR just means that you will get tougher games against tougher opponents. So don't feel bad that you didn't get a 3-4k a few games in a row.
Thanks, that's great information, but this guy is only going to listen to a Dev's response, so I'm hoping they will acknowledge the same thing.
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To please the entity, if the entity wanted survivors dead right away, it would kill them itself.
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It would be a cool animation for a survivor to kick the hooked survivor in the crotch and have them fly off the hook.
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@Steel_Eyed said:
After getting used to post nerf Slonger, the only area I would focus on is his terror radius. Monitor and Abuse is practically required on him. You might say his 4.4 m/s doesn’t matter (and before I say this I am not in favor of making him 4.6). But. Hearing him 32 meters out lets survivors know to start pre running. The amount of time it takes to make up that distance is monumental when the killer is only 10 percent faster.
I say reduce his terror radius down. 32meters is for 4.6 killers. Hag and Spirit still have 16 meter terror radius but Slonger got the hammer.
I find it's better to go bigger with his terror radius now and use Starstruck instead of trying to shrink it with M&A. Agitation and Starstruck on him is pretty fantastic if you haven't tried it yet.
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I had that happen to me for a while. I figured out if I don't run at the start of the match, just walk for the first 10 seconds, a Lethal Pursuer doesn't come after me. I figure it's because they think I have sprint burst.
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@Thr_ust said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2785321#Comment_2785321
I’d assume the survivor had to mess up in some capacity to pull that off but still congrats. I might also test the dropping off ledges thing with some of my friends later.
I was using Deathslinger, so I was able to position them to allow a better route down, that also probably helped.
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@Thr_ust said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2785283#Comment_2785283
The frequency of unfair interactions should have no impact when discussing how balanced something is. And while I am curious how you managed to pull off a hook we also cannot make decisions based on the experience of only a handful of people.
Went down the stairs, out to the lobby area and got the hook, it wasn't that far. It's also possible to drop the survivor from your shoulder to the ground below preventing the 25% loss, then go for the hook.
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The patch has been out a week and I've had 1 survivor try to abuse the RPD Boil Over thing, and I was still able to hook them right outside the library. All the other uses I've seen have been fair play, making Boil Over a useful perk but not OP by any means. This isn't a priority, it's an overreaction to a 1 time gimmick.
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@foxsansbox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2783830#Comment_2783830
Do you have a source that confirms bleeding out doesn't raise MMR?
I could be wrong but according to BHVR a kill is a kill is a kill.
They never specified about bleed outs. Some streamers bleed out survivors over and over, their MMR never changes, they stay at rock bottom MMR rank after thousands of "kills". I've asked the devs here on the forums to clarify, but they never answered, so I'm going with what I've seen with my own eyes. A "kill" is only a sacrifice or mori. A bleed out is probably set the same as a hatch escape.
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@foxsansbox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2783796#Comment_2783796
Why aren't bleedouts a win? BHVR has said kills, nothing more and nothing less, are the killers objective.
The game gives no bloodpoints when the survivor bleeds out, no MMR, or emblem points from them either, all the killer gets is 250 bleeding points. Kills (mori) and sacrifices are wins, bleed outs are nothing. Bleeding out is a non-action, it just happens, no skill involved.
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It's not really toxic, but the annoyance factor depends on if they bleed out before EGC finishes. Bleed outs aren't wins, and you don't get any points for them, so for me I'd rather try for a hook and maybe get another chase in. Maybe down them in a location where I can hook them, or they escape, which IDGAF, good on them. But if EGC is going to eat them, no real point in doing the extra work.
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Mettle of Man: grants the ability to perform actions such as repairing generators, cleansing totems, and opening the hatch with a key while in the dying state.
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It's important to know what makes a game enjoyable for all players. If you had a tabletop game and just played like a complete hardass every time you got your friends together, eventually they wouldn't want to play with you. The same thing goes here, if players make the game unenjoyable all the time, other players will leave. You won't notice it right away, but through attrition you eventually won't have anyone to play with.