Wirius
Wirius
About
- Username
- Wirius
- Joined
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Comments
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@pidgeon said:
Currently on Xbox series S and its not hard to dodge.
Good to hear! I'm coming from the PC crowd. Are you able to turn the settings down on XBox? Its really just bringing attention to a comment to see if there's something odd about lower specs and the beam on this patch release.
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If you're aiming directly for a spot, its easier for survivors to dodge, but it SHOULD be. Its a six second cooldown that goes through all terrain. If it was highly accurate or hard to dodge it would be busted. If you nail 1 out of 4 shots that's a hit every 24 seconds from often times insane range.
What gets hard is when you're on a gen determining when to run. Is the initial beam a fake out? Because most killers at high MMR have just unerring accuracy even with a fake out. Having to get off a gen has a chance of it exploding. Not to mention the possibility that the gen gets locked depending on perks and hook state. You can dodge 3 beams easy, but its all over if that fourth beam hits you. Now you need to go repent.
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@Salafur said:
buy a ps5
Appreciate the bump, but my computer is high end. The game and killer powers should function well for all specs, and its something that might have been missed on the live release. I can't imagine the amount of testing this game goes through, and something like this could easily slip through if not covered.
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@Daniel_Silva04 said:
What about nerfing SWF? If you nerf S tiers without nerfing SWF, what killers can do against them?
Once you get your S tier killers fixed in the game, that allows you to better balance the remaining killers. At that point they may also look at survivor nerfs, because survivor buffs have taken S tier killers existing in the game as well.
I want to be clear. There will always be a strongest killer that people say is BS. I think its clear that the S tier in this game are S tier because in the right hands, there's little to no meaningful counterplay for survivors. I enjoy facing all of the A tier killers even when I lose because it felt like I could do better next time. I enjoy playing killer myself. Counterplay to some extent is needed for a killer to play as and against. -
@flybynight said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/464459/its-time-to-balance-the-s-tier-killers
i feel like this post greatly fails to understand nurse in particular… blight, easy enough give him the token consumption ghoul gets on pallet break.
but nurse? I feel most of this is coming from a fundamental lack of understanding of both how nurse is balanced and more importantly how to counter her… and i get it, a really good nurse feels unbeatable, hell even a bad nurse can feel that way if you dont know how to deal with her.
and that's really the issue of nurse, she's rare enough outside the high mmrs you dont get to learn how to deal with her, how to locker escape from lunges, how to double back and juke a lunge, and how to properly bait out lunges around windows and how to judge a nurse's lunge range based on charge time so you can stun her with pallets. but, she's common enough in high mmr that she feels impossible to players who never were able to learn how to play around her.
which raises the question, should we start nerfing killers because survivors either dont get the time to learn the killer or in some cases actively refuse to learn? I would argue no, I applaud any attempts to truly balance the game and im on board with blight nerfs as blight is a huge problem…. but the nurse changes feel like a fundamental misunderstanding of nurse, her purpose and is the wrong way to balance her
Fair enough. I may be wrong on Nurse. Let me reiterate my intention and see if its still off. I understand all of the counters you're talking about. However, they require very specific and rare situations and set ups. Which is great! Its why I didn't want to destroy her power. The problem is it eliminates all other basic counters that a killer has, and creates a higher level meta game.
I think its great that Nurse's power is in DBD. My intention is to keep the Nurse power, but require a little bit of earning that still keeps normal counter play. I cannot see this lowering her past A tier. She will still be VERY strong, and you may be missing howe powerful being a full speed killer on top of normal teleporting can be. Once she hits you, she then gets her normal teleport attack AND has full movespeed too. And if that's still too powerful, she can go back to ranged speed for the duration. She's still hard to play. Still rewarding and powerful to play. But now there's a bit more counterplay for survivors. -
@azaxydbd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4058942#Comment_4058942
buddy blight is my most played killer in my 12k hours and my opinion is legit, this killer wont be weak even after this nerf, he will be top A tier, in corn maps he will still be S tier even after this change, just making him 4.4 wont solve much.
That would be fine by me. If he's still the strongest in the game, that's fine. He'll just have a little counter play now on short loops.
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@azaxydbd said:
Blight needs more than just 4.4 movement speed, he needs to have 2sec longer time for token charge, and he needs to lose tokens when he break pallets and injure survivor, also maps like corn needs giga rework since they are very bad for survivors, like really bad!
My goal is not to knock these killers down to not being used anymore, or lower than A tier. Blight could still be the best killer in the game and that wouldn't be a problem. The problem is his counter play is too low at this time, and he has negligible weaknesses in the hands of a good player. Same with Nurse. -
@skwillexy said:
How about buffing F tier killers so you see killers besides Nurse and Blight? No?
Sure, I get the sentiment. I'm not saying you shouldn't buff F tier either. But S tiers are very visible game altering characters that generally are oppressive to both play against, and design for. I'm also not sure there's any F tier characters anymore. Trapper I believe is considered the weakest, but he's a great beginner killer and can still snowball a game in the right circumstance.
Also, buffing F tier isn't going to make them S tier. S tier is something you shouldn't be shooting for. Its where the game begins to break for the other side. -
I struggle to see him as S tier. He's a good killer, but can be faked out, runs as fast as hag, and if your teammates are doing the clock, has down time where his hits do no damage.
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One more attempt because I feel this got buried quickly. If there are no further responses, I'll just leave it.
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Perhaps if you could use more than one exhaustion perk, you might have a point. But effectively with the cooldown, you don't get very much use out of more than one. I think that having one exhaustion perk, one information perk, one team assist perk, etc. is good. Perhaps the problem is that exhaustion perks are so good that you almost always want to bring one?
Exhaustion perks are all about skillful use once every 60 seconds. As such, they need to be impactful, and rely on player agency to use. In general, this is the case. How do you nerf a skill based perk with a long cooldown without making it useless? I just don't see it.
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Well written post! I think I understand where you are coming from emotionally. It used to be that you could get his cooldown super low with the correct addons. But we're talking about a 1 second difference now. Is it really that bad when you can now get a much lower cooldown without using those addons, and play a different style? I'm guessing the devs don't want ghost face players to JUST use the cooldown addons, but experiment with others.
If ghost face is absolutely reliant on his cooldown, then I would say that's a problem with his kit, or that other addons need to be buffed.
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I believe its a perk intended to help new players. Honestly, I wish it were moved to one of the starting players. If a player wants to troll however, getting rid of this perk is not going to stop them. I would much rather have the option for people to play and not worry about failing skills checks until they're better at making them.
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You obviously put some thought and work into this. But my major question is why you felt the need to do this? Do you feel that survivors items are too weak? Otzdarva did a test with a group of people using items, then not using items at all. With the most powerful items they had an average of 3 escapes in 84% of the matches, opposed to 56% of the time without items.
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You win or die by your traps as hag. Do not do long or lengthy chases. If you don't get them soon after a trap has triggered, redo your web and go back to guarding your area.
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Is it bad because it feels bad, or is it bad because it usually makes the game unwinnable for survivors? There is nothing wrong with a strong perk right? A perk that deserves a nerf should have some evidence of being very uncounterable, oppressive, or used in ways the developers never intended. I'm assuming the devs intended tinkerer to work this way. Its been in the game for years. So why is it bad for survivors and the health of the game now?
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@Clevite said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2582051#Comment_2582051
I guess I am most doubtful of BE's ability to code it. But I do think eventually they will adjust something in higher MMR, probably gen speed.
Its just a suggestion for them to consider. I'm sure they'll evaluate whether this is something feasible to code. The ROI for coding higher MMR to be more engaging and fun would need to pay off in long time user retention and streamer advertisement. A good end game MMR where skill is prevalent and there is evidence of your triumph can be very appealing to several gamers. What that ROI looks like to them, I can't say either. Perhaps the high MMR community doesn't spend much money, or they don't find they get new players joining because of streamers.
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@Clevite said:
Na, let the sweats play with the sweats and the chills play with the chills.
So this is still an option. In fact, I'm sure the devs would first test this among the high skill MMR teams. They might forbid a match under a certain MMR threashold for example, then anyone above that threshold had the scaled decreasing addons and perks based on their individual MMR.
Once the system is tested, it could bleed out into the other MMR's when queue times get too long. Perhaps having a killer with reduced ruin, or using off meta perks because the meta perks are too reduced, would make it more fair for survivor's who have no reduction in abilities.
What do you think of the larger idea though? Pros, cons?
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@VioletCrimes said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2462190#Comment_2462190
Well, that's not necessarily true. Totems can spawn in places that people just walk by all the time, especially on maps like the swamp. I really think it would just encourage the Trapper to camp totems instead of focusing on gens.
While there are spots that a survivor could walk past at times, the traps would not be hidden in any grass and clearly visible. This could potentially be a downside for the killer, as a newer survivor will see a trap, and if they go to disarm it, find a totem they might not have been looking for.
I don't see how this makes trapper camp totems. It will mean that the trapper will be likely to visit a totem to pick up a trap, but that's it. If survivors are snapping them and the trapper is nearby, its an indicator of where a survivor is. This may mean survivors avoid totems and do generators, in which case, the trapper won't worry about totems. If survivors are doing a concerted effort to get rid of totems, this gives the trapper a slightly better chance at protecting them, but serves mostly to waste their time.
It gives more meaningful decisions for the trapper without altering his core gameplay loop.
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@VioletCrimes said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2440202#Comment_2440202
Because it means he starts the game with five traps already set. That’s a bit much.
But these are set in front of the totems. The point is the updated trapper has a layer of totem protection at start. People aren't going to run into these by accident, and they don't shut down any loops. The trapper could leave them there if he wanted, but he's going to want to grab some of them if the has any hope of shutting down loops. Essentially the traps make it more risky/time consuming to get rid of totems at the start or if the trapper decides to leave a trap at a particular spot.
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I'm not sure that's a quality of life change. That's an alteration to his gameplay. Part of what makes the killers in this game good is some element of attention needed by the player to optimize their effectiveness. When the player needs to press a button, it requires them to pay attention to timing. When it doesn't, it lets them play sloppy.
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@VioletCrimes said:
Having each totem set with an already armed trap is a bit too much.
Why would that be?
Traps are able to be disarmed by survivors. Further, the traps are extremely unlikely to actually catch any survivors. If a Trapper is playing with few to no hex perks, they'll be grabbing them to use.
The only time it comes into play is if there is a lit totem, or if survivors want to clean regular totems to prevent NOED. At this point, they have a choice. They can trip the trap, then get rid of the totem. If the trapper is on the other side of the map, its not going to matter except for a small delay in tripping the trap.
When this comes into play is if the trapper is within a reasonable distance. In the case, the survivor might wait until the trapper is in a chase. Or maybe even come back later.
This just makes trapper's power have some effect in certain circumstances when they start the map. At the least, it delays survivors a bit. At the most, it allows an extra detection for the trapper to protect his totems at the start if he's able to. A trapper is likely to want to grab those traps to shut down loops. I just don't see this as an oppressive change.
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Firellius, I appreciate your well thought out posts and discussion. But I think we're losing sight of the main topic. I am not claiming that there aren't perks that are absolutely useless, nor would I ever. Yes, there are some perks that are worthless. But I'm also confident that there are plenty of perks that do not see use that are not useless at all. There might be a new meta not found yet, and there might not. But what this will encourage is people to try new things. Maybe try some niche builds. Find that hey, we didn't know that some of these perks are actually pretty good!
What I think this can also help the devs to see is which perks are NEVER picked, even when they give bonus BP for the week. That can help them focus on doing some minor tweaks to those perks, and increasing the variety of the games we see.
Remember, the goal is Increase game variety by encouraging perk experimentation. Now yes, people who insist on always playing the meta to win no matter what won't care. But they never care about anything but winning anyway. This is to encourage people who are shy to experiment. Who might not mind losing if they get some more BP. And in that, we generate more game variety, and perhaps generate new strategies.
Do you think the idea would help bring about these solutions?
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@Firellius said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2135861#Comment_2135861
Oh, there's definitely a meta perception. But that doesn't mean that 75% of the survivor perk pool -isn't- garbage.
No matter how much bonus BP you throw at it, people won't use Red Herring. They're not going to use Autodidact if they want to win. They won't pick up Visionary, or Deja Vu, or Hope... There's just too many perks in the game that are terrible outright, most of them suffering from extremely stringent activation conditions.
You might be surprised. It might be the incentive for a couple of players to say, "You know what, maybe I can make a build that makes that perk work." It might not be the most effective build in the world. It might be niche. But it gets people to try new things, shake up the meta a bit, and let people have some fun.
Also, you might be surprised how much meta perception affects what people consider good vs. bad. There is a game called Legue of Legends, that has an established meta for champions and items. Yet, there are different servers in Korea. Their meta has been VERY different from the North American one at times. Some champions the West considers bad, Korea considers great, and vice-versa. The developers once also stated that they did not change some champions or items because people had not yet discovered how good or useful they were in the right circumstances.
And that's really the goal. Get people to try perks they normally wouldn't. Get people to theory craft each week. Get some perk variety in games! And maybe, just maybe, people will find a perk combo once dismissed is actually very powerful, and shake up gameplay a bit.
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@Firellius said:
That's all well and good for killers, but survivors can't really deviate much because about 75% of the survivor perk list doesn't get used for a reason. The majority of survivor perks are downright garbage.
See, this is the problem I'm talking about when I say the "meta perception" prevents people from trying other perks. I would argue there is a meta perception that 75% of killer perks are "downright garbage" as well.
Now it may be that during certain weeks of bonus perks, its found that even WITH a bonus and an incentivization to experiment, that some perks just never get picked or never find any use. At that point, the devs have some more specific data for light buffs or perk alterations. I mean, the devs can't just go through 75% of the perks and buff them all. Many are situational, or "meta" situational.
Also, having a bonus week to using the underutilized perks doesn't force you to not use meta perks. Its an option. For longer term players especially, I think it might present new challenges for them to try, and breath life into the game by adding another wrinkle to consider each week.
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As a killer main, I agree. I consider 2k "par". 3-4k meant you had a great game.
Now does that mean the DS nerf is wrong? No. It was a perk with too much loaded in it. Its STILL very good, and survivors will want to run it as a top choice.
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I think second chance perks are a great way of allowing more agency to the survivors. Like any RPGish game, you get more powerful the more you play. Being able to make a mistake is good for the survivors as well. The only perk I think is too strong is DS. But that doesn't mean there isn't a good idea behind it if nerfed correctly. It also doesn't mean that second chance perks should be removed. Most of the second chance perks have some type of counter or strategy the killer can employ, so I think its just fine.
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NOED is a situationally useful perk that can be hard countered.
- Once the gates are in play, it becomes a LOT more difficult for the killer, as survivors can stealth bounce between the two gates
- You can take out the perk entirely by doing totems
- If the killer camps his ONE hook, ok, let him have it. It took an entire perk that didn't help him during the game to stop the gens from popping. Go to the next game.
- If a person leans on the perk, to get a kill at the end game (If they find a survivor), let them. There are plenty of perks that people lean on to compensate for basic skills.
A situationally strong perk with strong counter play is in no way overpowered. Sorry, I just don't see it.
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I'm going to disagree here. This is a horror game. One aspect of horror is facing the unknown. The adrenaline of having to make snap decisions, or guesses that sometimes don't pay off adds to the enjoyment and replay of the game. If the games had no RNG to them, then you could get a team of people together and create the optimal plan. At that point it becomes a team strategy game and not a horror game.
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@Caleegi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1882771#Comment_1882771
Well atm, everyone uses it because killers won't stop camping and tunneling. If you killer mains want to complain so much about the damn perk, don't camp or tunnel and we wouldn't need it and it could be removed if people agreed we don't need it anymore. But instead of stop camping and tunneling you decide to just complain and whine about the one perk which can counter it.
Yes, this is why DS is a good perk. Good perks alter the gameplay for a particular purpose. However, even if killers did not camp or tunnel, DS would still be immensely useful due to some of the points I noted above. The goal is to keep the perk strong for its intended use, while minimizing its strength if a killer does not camp or tunnel the survivor.
After all, if a killer is not tunneling or actively only pursuing one survivor, that's already an incredible boon for the team. The reason why killers camp and tunnel is because, well, its incredibly effective at many ranks of the game. The sooner you can eliminate one survivor, the stronger the killer becomes. So its good that there are some perks available that force a killer to target others. Otherwise, killers would rarely change their gameplay loop, and DBD encourages changing your gameplay loop.
So I really do think DS is a GOOD perk largely in its intention and functionality. I think there are aspects of it that could use some tweaking to prevent it from feeling like its being abused. My tact is to allow better information to the killer, and a eliminate a situation in which the perk cannot be countered.
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@TrollToll said:
i think it was just a mistake to have a perk like this in general, it just needs heavily restricted due to its power level and it will be fine i guess.
I personally think the idea of DS is good. I think if you lesson the times where it doesn't feel like a killer could have done anything about it due to the situations above, it will be good for the game. Nothing wrong with having a strong perk.
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@Jallybwan said:
Interesting, but you could also just make it deactivate once another person is hooked, and/or once a gate has been opened. You could make it last forever in a chase to balance that out, and further prevent tunnelling.
Sure, all suggestions are welcome.
If it deactivates when another person is hooked or 60 seconds, it doesn't fix the issue of a killer having to keep track of 60 seconds from a survivor's unhook. It also doesn't address the issue of a survivor using DS to put themselves purposefully in front of the killer and absorb a hit for a teammate.
The problem with it deactivating once the gate opens, is there's no reason to punish a DS user at the end game. DS is still a good perk, and it can be used for that clutch escape. That's why I recommended it being disable only when a survivor with DS crosses the gate doors. This also still lets them escape to hatch if its nearby.