VomitMommy
VomitMommy
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Hallucinations are already quite good part of his power, wouldn't be better to fix the more frustrating part of his power -> weird grenade launcher...
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3677213#Comment_3677213
I've not had an issue with the actual arguments you're making (beyond thinking they're wrong, obviously), I am specifically talking about when you'd say things like "I'd like to see your gameplay", or "You aren't using Lock On correctly", or any other attempt at making the discussion personal and pointed. That is extremely different to making an argument in favour of your case, which we've both been doing.
I'm glad we could come to some kind of agreement, at least. The changes would be healthy ones, it seems, the question is whether there'd need to be a compensatory buff. I don't personally believe it would be necessary, but it wouldn't be harmful either, so if both happened at once we'd still get the part that matters. It'd be nice QoL in general, too.
I'd like to see your gameplay
I just think what you described would be extreme difficult to do. I am not saying you wouldn't be able to do it, maybe you are that good, but that's just more of a reason, why I would love to see someone pull that off and win doing it.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3677184#Comment_3677184
No, not like that all. Because I'm making arguments that I back up with evidence and explanations.
Sure, some of it's map dependant. I don't know off the top of my head if every map has those hidden drone spots, though I think every map does have the gaps in walls + structures that let you scan through them- think Trickster knives and Deathslinger harpoons, it's that kind of gap you need.
I think you would probably be able to spread stacks on every map, the map will just affect how easy it is.
Let me ask this. Assume everything else I want to do happens, but we add this buff: While a survivor is shown on the Skull Merchant's radar, they are not able to remove any Lock On stacks by hacking drones. That way you'd always have time to react to a survivor tripping a drone so you can recall it. Would that be more acceptable for you?
Because I'm making arguments that I back up with evidence and explanations.
so did I... I told why it doesn't work, I even gave you an option how to fix your idea.
If my explanation doesn't work because you don't agree, then yours is not valid either...
While a survivor is shown on the Skull Merchant's radar, they are not able to remove any Lock On stacks by hacking drones
Change it to "survivors are not able to disarm the drones, while on radar". Otherwise survivor could just start disarm and wait, which sounds annoying.
That would also buff addons to keep survivors visible for longer, which is currenly trash.
Then I would be fine with it.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3677164#Comment_3677164
Two things: First, hidden drone spots typically also remove the ring on the ground. This is one of those things about Skull Merchant that people don't realise, and over time will separate decent Skull Merchants from very very good ones. These drones aren't just placed wherever, you're taking advantage of the specific placement restrictions and quirks that come with her power to remove as much information from survivors as possible. There are also plenty of structures where the drone's beams shoot straight through the wall because of a small gap, and even if you know there's a drone there, you can't know if the beam's actually passing through that gap while it's invisible and the drone itself is blocked from view.
Pixel Bush's video on Skull Merchant showcases this pretty well, though it's also pretty long and I don't have a timestamp for when he talks about those parts specifically on hand, sorry.
Second, I'm not saying that reacting to the scan and recalling the drone will be incredibly easy. It'll require you to remember where you've placed your drones, and quickly ascertain which one just turned yellow, on top of whatever you were doing. I will remind you that you're doing this in service of spreading your Lock On stacks, which is a very powerful outcome to be in; even if you never get a claw trap out of it, having everyone at two stacks means any chase you take is going to be quite short.
I'll also say again, if this does end up too difficult, I have a buff in mind to alleviate it, as I already said.
Finally, you're doing it again. The "funny how" and the "I'd like to see you try" while alluding to my gameplay or my games specifically. It's not constructive, I'm politely asking you to stop.
It's not constructive, I'm politely asking you to stop.
You mean like "it will work if you are good enough"?
Most of what you said is highly map dependant and beam is not full circle, so it is kinda random if survivor will run into it or not and you can't influence this.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3677129#Comment_3677129
It's not hard to understand, but there's a hole in the logic.
If a drone is tripped outside of chase, there is a delay before the survivor starts to hack it. The more hidden the drone, the more the delay, generally; usually the hidden drones require navigating around an object before you can actually reach the model itself. If your active strategy is to spread stacks, you'd put drones in those hidden spots and react to the survivor being scanned, recalling the drone before they can hack it. Generally, you're probably not going to be relying on this, but they'll be the exception to the whole "don't leave drones out" thing- the drones that take a second to get to, giving you time to recall them after someone's scanned.
(I have considered making it so drones can't be hacked while you're on the Skull Merchant's scanner, to embolden this playstyle, but I'm wary about buffing her when she currently needs nerfs + does fine otherwise.)
Additionally, if your active strategy is to spread stacks, yes, you would be dropping chase on survivors after tagging them directly. That wouldn't actually be changing from the way it works now, that's just a part of playing Skull Merchant this way.
I keep italicising "active strategy" because right now you don't need to do those things, right now you can passively benefit from stacks spreading across the map without putting in any effort at all. That is the thing I want to change, and anyone who wants to benefit from multiple survivors having stacks at once should need to adapt to that requiring a small amount of effort.
You aren't inherently going to lose based on this if you're actually good at it. If you know the trap spots, if you know the right time to drop chase versus the right time to actually progress your objective, if you're good enough with the drone's mechanical skill expression to reliably force scans quickly... yeah, it'd be viable. It'd be kind of a risk/reward playstyle where the reward is way way higher than the more traditional chase-based playstyle, but it also requires more management so there's more room to mess up.
You would lose if you're just tagging survivors once in chase, recalling the drone, and aimlessly wandering to someone else. That's good. Killers putting in that little effort should do noticeably worse than killers who do put in effort.
Still, there's middle ground between those two scenarios, and real games are messy. You'll face survivors who just don't react to being scanned properly, you'll face survivors who make the wrong decisions about when to hack, you'll face teams that accrue more scans accidentally than there are drones to remove them, etc. I don't anticipate this being something you have to do perfectly in order to get value, you'd just have to put in some effort.
Funny is you still expect survivors to run into it without thinking. Right now, they are not able to remove lock on and it's not normal to see survivors getting claw traps around the map. It would be even less likely to happen with your changes.
Trying to hide doesn't really work when they are easily visible and there is circle around them, unless you want to make them actually hidden and display properly what state is that drone.
As soon survivor starts disarming you can't recall the drone. So depends where survivor triggers you have like 2 +/- seconds to check your radar to even find out who it is, aim at it and recall it, where there is high chance you are middle of chase. I really want to see you trying this :D
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3677102#Comment_3677102
Right, so, this comes back to the same thing I have to keep repeating: Letting survivors remove stacks of Lock On by hacking drones DOES NOT MEAN that stacks are inherently temporary. They have to have drones nearby to hack.
So, does this make spreading stacks less effective? Nope! Once you put in the effort to keep your drones away from their reach, spreading stacks is just as effective as before. The thing that changes is the barrier of effort before you get to start doing it, not how effective it is once you've started.
I'll hit that point again, because it's important: If they get a stack, you recall that drone. If you want to spread stacks, you do not keep drones out as a rule. There may be exceptions for specific drone spots, but by and large, if your strategy is to spread stacks, you would put the active effort into making sure the stacks aren't removed by recalling drones. This is the part that cannot be ignored or waved away, it is THE most important part of this argument.
Which leads to, getting multiple claw traps is not less powerful or less impactful than before. It is harder to do, though it's not even close to impossible, but it's not less effective.
As for your last question: You... place the drone down by them after/as they're unhooked? You're tunnelling them in this scenario, so you use your power in that chase. It wouldn't be immediate, but no killer currently gets to down someone as soon as their feet touch the ground, it takes a few seconds for their power to circumvent anti-tunnel where applicable.
They have to have drones nearby to hack.
If I get lock on, there simply HAS TO BE a drone nearby. So outside of chase, survivors can always remove it.
If they have lock on, it means they got in chase, which means I had to drop chase against a survivor with two stacks.
How is that so hard to understand?
Once you put in the effort to keep your drones away from their reach
If I take aways drones, then they will never trigger it on their own. This logic has lot of holes...
you would put the active effort into making sure the stacks aren't removed by recalling drones
again... this means survivors will never get injured outside of chase, even if I chase every survivor and get two stacks on them.
How the hell is not supposed to be less effective? It's terrible way to play and you are going to lose most of your games for this.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3677049#Comment_3677049
That doesn't make it a bulletproof strategy, it just makes it a thing that'll happen as the game progresses. It's not a way for you, the survivor, to actively remove your Lock On progress, because the Lock On does its job in this scenario: it makes you easier to down.
That's why you're not "punished" by "losing your power progress". The whole point of your power - any power, even if it's sometimes indirect - is to make survivors easier/faster to down. Once it does that job, it is totally fair for it to reset where applicable if it can't be removed manually, because you already got rewarded for using it with the one thing it's meant to do.
Claw Traps don't make her better at tunnelling now, because the stacks get reset. If someone could come off the hook with two stacks, especially if the power still inflicts Deep Wounds to cancel their anti-tunnel, they'd become extremely easy to tunnel out with a claw trap. That is, obviously, a bad thing.
While talking doesn't always mean agreeing, you have failed to really evidence your argument. Take your statement here, where you say it gets less effective: How? Getting multiple claw traps is completely unchanged with my suggestions, so how is it less effective on top of being harder?
you have failed to really evidence your argument.
so did you... just saying
Take your statement here, where you say it gets less effective: How?
For example if you let survivors to heal 50% faster. Is hit&run strategy less effective? Hell yeah
So if survivors can remove stacks, is spreading lock on less effective? Hell yeah
Getting multiple claw traps is completely unchanged with my suggestions
No, it's near impossible unless it's first game against skull merchant for all those survivors... If they get lock on, it means there is drone nearby, which means they can remove it.
Also you not only would need to drop several chases with two stacks, those survivors would also have to be blind and run into some drone...
they'd become extremely easy to tunnel out with a claw trap
How do you exactly apply it on them, even if they have two stacks? You can't place drone next to the hook, so that won't work. Then they can just keep running, other survivors can bodyblock. It's same as any other M1 killer.
Only scenario I can see is survivor got into basement with two stacks, but at that point, if I want to tunnel someone in basement, I don't need claw trap to kill them, I can just bodyblock them on stairs for 10 seconds.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3676930#Comment_3676930
What?
How is it a bullet proof system for getting rid of Lock On when it gives the killer a free hook? That doesn't make any sense, the reason it clears when you get downed is so that the Skull Merchant can't tunnel you out with a claw trap and thus Hindered when you're unhooked.
You do not get punished for playing well as killer because you get a hook. Those progress you to your goal, killing survivors, so they are a reward. Your power exists to make those easier to get.
Removing Broken wouldn't change anything here, because it's the Haste and Hindered that help tunnel someone out. If someone's unhooked, you should start from zero again, because the stacks you put on them did their job: They made that survivor easier to down. That, or they weren't needed to reach that goal in the first place, in which case it doesn't matter.
Also, I would appreciate if you'd stop insulting my gameplay, especially when you haven't actually seen it. You have no idea whether I'm using Lock On correctly, you can only judge based on the way I talk about Skull Merchant's power-- and I could be just as unhelpful by saying that it sure seems like I understand it better than you do. That wouldn't achieve anything, though, it'd just devolve the conversation into name-calling.
We've also talked at length about how other playstyles would still be viable, that's just repetition without anything to back it up.
It's bullet proof, because it will always happen and you can't prevent it.
Claw trap will not make tunneling that much faster compare to any other killer, so I don't understand why you worry so much about it.
You do not get punished for playing well as killer because you get a hook.
You get punished by losing your power progress. That's a cost. Hook is something that would happen no matter what.
Removing Broken wouldn't change anything here
it wouldn't change anything for tunneling, but it would make it less punishing for survivors overall.
We've also talked at length about how other playstyles would still be viable, that's just repetition without anything to back it up.
Talking doesn't mean I agreed. You just said it would be viable, I disagree. It would make it more difficult and less effective. Why bother?
Your argument was: "You can still try to do it, if you want". But that's about it. I can also play completely without power, if I want. That doesn't make it good idea...
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3676197#Comment_3676197
Considering there's only sometimes a way to remove Lock On with my suggestions, and considering the killer can completely deny survivors the opportunity to use it at all, I don't mind Lock On resetting when the killer gets a hook or a down.
I don't mind Lock On resetting when the killer gets a hook or a down
Because you don't use it properly, but that doesn't mean your playstyle should be only viable and ignore everything else.
If killer denies survivors option to remove lock on (recall drones) that means there are no drones prepared in advance. I see that as a fair trade.
Right now there is basically bullet proof system how to get rid of lock on -> get downed. All stacks are wasted when you down survivor, so you kinda gets punished for playing well as a killer at that point.
If you want give survivors option to get rid of lock on with their actions -> ignore their mistakes while walking into drones, then there is no reason to clear stacks for them whenever they get downed/hooked.
If you are worried about that, then we can simply get rid of broken and just make it always mending as I suggested. Then it can't really get out of hand more than Legion can do.
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soloQ is not bad enough?
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Lol, what a terrible answer to soloQ issue :D
Sounds like it would just be lot of work with spaghetti code, so trying to find any excuse possible why not do it.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3676168#Comment_3676168
Maybe not when they're downed, that would need to be tested, but they should definitely not keep Lock On stacks when hooked.
We don't want Skull Merchant to be too good at tunnelling with her power.
Which also raises the question, when would keeping Lock On stacks when downed be useful, and the answer is kind of just "slugging", so I don't love that either.
why they shouldn't keep lock on, when there is an alternative to remove them?
Sadako keeps it, Pyramid head also.
Claw trap is not that good for tunneling in my opinion. It won't instadown. She would be nowhere near best tunneling killer, or slugging killer. It would simply become passive slowdown, because survivors would have to give it some effort.
This is the way how I can imagine it could be used.
There is a way how to lose lock on in the game, there shouldn't be multiple of them. Otherwise drones are just a joke.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3676153#Comment_3676153
Again, I don't think so. Sadako's Condemned stacks are removed from a static map object that Sadako has no control over.
Lock On stacks would be removed by hacking drones, which Skull Merchant doesn't have to leave out if she doesn't want to.
Hmm, I have a good idea.
Let survivors remove lock on by disarm, but they don't lose their current lock on when they are downed, or hooked.
If survivors can get rid of lock on with their effort, there is no reason to also remove it for skull merchant's effort.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3676145#Comment_3676145
I don't think that's necessary, getting multiple claw traps on different survivors is a very strong position. It really doesn't need to be more rewarding than it currently is.
That would be near impossible to do. That would be harder than Sadako getting condemn and she can mori survivors...
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3676105#Comment_3676105
Well... yes?
Dropping chase and spreading Lock On stacks is made harder because that's the thing it's currently easy to try and cheese. The thing that requires you to be more on point with aim, positioning, and placement is unchanged because that's the thing that currently requires skill expression.
If you aren't putting skill expression into 1v1 chases then you're going to lose, it'll take too long to get to three stacks and you'll only have it on one person. If you aren't putting skill expression into spreading the stacks, it can still work out for you because you don't actually have to put much effort into it to benefit from claw traps. It isn't guaranteed, mind, but when it works it doesn't require nearly as much from you.
if you make it harder, then sure, but then make it more rewarding to do, because it would be definetly not worth the effort.
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And how the hell Skull merchant went from "survivors get punished for disarming" into "survivors should get rewarded for disarming"...
Old system where it was basically trade off was way more interesting in my opinion. This is basically win win situation for survivors.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3676085#Comment_3676085
It makes it more difficult, yes, but that's because basically no effort has to go into it right now.
There's no way to remove Lock On stacks, so the only limiting factor is how fast the generators get done. Otherwise, you can cheese out basically free claw traps cross-map with barely any effort beyond regular M1 chases. I want to see her power and its skill expression be more of a focus, and the only way to do that is to make it so you have to put in effort before getting serious rewards from it.
The options are limited but they aren't removed. All it does is expect some skill expression from you.
All it does is expect some skill expression from you
It's funny going 1 by 1 is exactly same with your change...
Only dropping chases and trying to pressure multiple survivors is more difficult to do properly than just playing "I see survivor, I chase"
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3676043#Comment_3676043
It does not force anyone to play like me.
If that's what you want to do, you would still be able to do it. The requirement would just be to be on point with recalling your drones so they don't get hacked, and hiding the ones you do leave out so that it takes longer to get to them and hack them after they're tripped, thus giving you more time to recall them.
I genuinely have no problem with that playstyle. I only want it to be something the killer has to actually commit to doing while paying some kind of attention.
It's important to remember that letting them remove stacks in this regard doesn't put something on the map for them to consistently do it with, like a Freddy clock or a Pig box. The thing they use to remove stacks is something completely in your control, and you don't have to let them have access to it.
It does not force anyone to play like me.
It makes it more difficult (it already is harder then just go 1 by 1 in my opinion) and less effective. Sounds like limiting options to me.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3676005#Comment_3676005
Right, gotcha.
So, I did explain this poorly, I 100% admit to that. I'll start from the beginning again and try to clarify what I meant from the start.
The issue is, I was too caught up thinking about the way I play Skull Merchant, where dropping chase on survivors with one Lock On scan is a waste of time. I don't generally try to spread the Lock On stacks (unless given a very easy opportunity to), I focus on trying to build them on one person quickly, because I find that a little more fun overall.
For me it's a waste of time. It is worth pointing out that it doesn't have to be a waste of time. Right now, you don't actually have to put much effort into making it worth your time because any stacks you get can't be removed, meaning you don't actually have to try very hard to get random claw traps mapwide from survivors that aren't very aware.
So, the right way of phrasing it would've been this: If you are playing Skull Merchant in an active and skill-based manner, dropping chase on survivors with one Lock On stack is usually a waste of time.
With my changes, playing passively and aimlessly would be punishable because survivors could reset and remove their Lock On progress. You'd have to start being active and putting more thought + effort into what you're doing to spread Lock On stacks. If you do that, dropping chase strategically would be worth it again, but in a more balanced way.
Again, I explained this poorly, that's on me.
You'd have to start being active and putting more thought + effort into what you're doing to spread Lock On stacks.
Not really, only option would to play like you
I focus on trying to build them on one person quickly
just go 1 by 1
I enjoy hit&run killers, that's why I play skull merchant (also Wraith, Legion). She is quite decent for it, not best, but decent. That means I am dropping chase often, survivors usually are injured with 1/2 lock on stacks (kinda hard to tell, when you don't see it).
I don't really care if they will get claw trap when I am chasing someone else, point is to have chance to get claw trap faster and possibly instadown (very rare tho) in my next chase with that survivor.
Letting them remove stacks negates most of my chances for this. That's why it is massive nerf for me at least. That's why I don't understand why even go for any other nerfs for her.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3675938#Comment_3675938
If you want to take another shot at specific questions, I'll try and answer them. These messages can get a little long and so some things get missed out unintentionally.
While I agree that those addons are bad, they aren't made any worse by my changes, they're just bad. Though, to speak up for one one of them mildly, the Mangled + Haemorrhage only applies when the survivor is hit, which downs them, which breaks the claw trap, so they're not actually afflicted by all three status effects at once.
Either way, though, they're just bad. They're not good addons being made bad by these changes, so it's kind of irrelevant to bring them up.
so it's kind of irrelevant to bring them up.
This post is supposed to be about skull merchant changes, isn't it? I consider her addons to be issue, which should be addresed.
Or you want me to only say how I don't like your changes and nothing more? I am fine with that...
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3674707#Comment_3674707
Something I've neglected to really elaborate on, and that is my fault, I'll cop to it, is that getting claw traps out of chase would be something the killer can make happen. I've been hitting the point that it shouldn't happen randomly and without input from the killer, and I stand by that, but we should of course acknowledge that the Skull Merchant would have some control over it.
Remember, with my hypothetical changes, survivors would have to hack drones to remove a single stack of Lock On. So, if they're sitting at two stacks, but there's only one drone on the map and it's nowhere near them... they're just sitting at two stacks, permanently. That might seem like an extreme example, but consider a more plausible one: Three survivors are sitting at two stacks, and the fourth is in chase, but there are three drones out. Not everyone can hack twice, there aren't enough drones, so those stacks are going to stay-- and if any of those traps are hidden ones, trying to find something to hack might result in an unexpected claw trap instead.
If the killer is actively paying attention to Lock On stacks, keeping track of their drone locations, and making sure to recall drones that look too easy to get to and hack, they'd still stand a reasonable chance of getting claw traps outside of chase-- at the very least, they'd be able to keep survivors close to being claw trapped for their next chase.
They'd just have to try. It wouldn't be passive, there'd be room for messing it up, and there'd be room to counter it. That is all necessary for a balanced and fair power.
I was talking about this comment. It simply doesn't make sense.
Even more when you admitted before, that dropping chase with survivor having multiple stacks is waste of time.
This whole comment works only if you would drop chase with multiple survivors having two stacks, which is simply pointless thing to do.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3674887#Comment_3674887
"There is not really a need for that. At max ranged you often have issue to reel them towards you already."
Well of course I'm assuming that if they did this they'd also increase reel speed/time to break so that it functions. I can see no need, but it sounds fun, and what else can we give him then? Trying for ideas here.
"Hell no..."
How often have you actually been hit with this? I can think of maybe once...since his release..how's that so bad?
"Why not just make him 115%? That would fix his TR issue too."
That is a possibility we could do. I guess I prefer taking the slower killers and making their powers worthy of being slow rather than just slapping more speed on them.
How often have you actually been hit with this? I can think of maybe once...since his release..how's that so bad?
I don't remember last time I have played against Deathslinger, but I play him quite a lot, it's not really hard to do in my opinion.
This would make him so much more punishing to play against, where he is already one of best 1v1 killers.
their powers worthy of being slow rather than just slapping more speed on them
Problem is if you think too much about it, he would end as Trickster / Sadako, basically lose all their original identity, which I would like to avoid.
Simply make him 115% is not complicated change, it would make him better and definetly improved his gameplay. I also don't think it would make him too strong.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3674853#Comment_3674853
If that's all you've got to say on the matter, I think this conversation has concluded.
I have a lot more to say, but we disagree on major levels about her, where there is no chance to get any result.
There is a lot of errors in your logic. Like whole broken / mending conversation and effect of drones outside of chase. There is one whole comment completely nonsense, whch is probably why you didn't clarify any of my questions about it.
You are also unable to express yourself effectively and I am too lazy for that. That's why I usually point out only part of your comments, because most of that text is useless. For example your next post:
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3674884#Comment_3674884
Okay, I was actually in game so I went and checked, you're right, there's twelve.
The reason I was thinking there weren't so many is that were some I wasn't counting for this purpose. Like the ones for extra Hindered percentage and time, those don't really matter to our conversation because they're only for chase.
So, let's tally up the addon effects that are only for chase. To me, this includes: Extra Hindered percentage, extra Hindered time, Exhaustion, and arguably the aura when the claw trap is first applied and the Mangled + Haemorrhage. I say those last two because cross-map info isn't useful when you can already see them on your scanner, it's more useful for mindgaming in chase, and because the Mangled one requires you to get a down on a claw trapped survivor. Taking these off the table, we have seven addons.
These include: Blindness, battery life duration, smaller skill checks, silent skill checks, aura reveal when the claw trap is removed, Oblivious, and the Expired Batteries iridescent.
The next step is to see which of those are actually good. In my opinion, both skill check addons and the Expired Batteries are bad now + won't get worse with my hypothetical changes. The skill check ones are a meagre effect for a small duration only if you're ignoring survivors with claw traps entirely, and the Expired Batteries are just a hot mess of backwards effects that don't do anything noticeable.
Taking those off the table, we're left with four. Blindness, battery life, Oblivious, aura reveal when removed. Do these get worse with the proposed changes?
Not really. Blindness and Oblivious are still somewhat useful in chase anyway, battery life is useful for if you choose to drop chase on a claw trapped survivor, and aura reveal when removed is... fine? Honestly I don't think those last two are good to begin with, especially the aura one which feels very vestigial from an earlier design of her power where it made more sense, but I'm trying to be as generous as possible here.
Considering you'd still be able to spread your Lock On stacks with careful play, and considering most of the addons that affect claw traps at all seem more geared towards either using them in chase or dropping chase after getting the claw trap anyway, I don't think much changes here.
Honestly, the bottom line is, the addons here that aren't good need reworking anyway. My changes don't really change much at all for them.
Do these get worse with the proposed changes?
Yes and almost all claw traps addons are just bad and unreliable. I don't care about most of those effects in chase.
Mangled + Haemorrhage is completely useless, when survivor is broken. Ha, another reason for removing broken instead of mending... Blidness, Skill checks, Oblivious are way worse, when claw trap could be used only in chase.
Almost all of them should be reworked no matter what changes she gets.
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Decrease TR back to 24m
I would love that but doubt it.
Massively increased gun range
There is not really a need for that. At max ranged you often have issue to reel them towards you already.
Iridescent Coin could've just been a base kit feature
Hell no...
He also has a ton of bad addons as well.
true
Why not just make him 115%? That would fix his TR issue too.
Some addon changes would be nice too, but that's about it.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3674810#Comment_3674810
What I just laid out is how it should work.
I am fine with it being functionally impossible to get random claw traps outside of chase. I haven't given up on the idea of multiple survivors having multiple stacks, because I laid out that I don't mind the killer trying to spread those stacks IF they have to manage their drones and avoid as many hacks as possible while doing it.
My problem with the current scenarios where multiple survivors have multiple scans is that there's no effort or skill involved on the killer's side. It's a war of attrition that, if they win it, won't have required much from the killer. I don't think this currently a huge must-fix-immediately problem, since the killer's also fairly likely to lose the war of attrition, but it's still an unhealthy element that should be fixed.
So, yes, with skill and effort, you could get traps outside of chase. You'd just have to pay attention and be smart with your drone placements + recalls. It'd be harder than focusing on getting a trap on one person, which it should be because you're doing it to multiple survivors at once and trying to avoid needing to focus on them, but it would be doable.
So, no, we don't agree that it's a massive nerf. It's a noticeable one if you're the kind of player that does try and rely on stacks being permanent to drop chase frequently, but if you use her drones more actively you'll barely notice it at all and if you just put more effort into spreading stacks you'll be able to overcome it. That breaks out to a moderate nerf at worst.
I want to remove Mending because I don't feel that it does much of value, isn't particularly coherent with the rest of her kit, and probably contributes to the feeling of her kit being bloated with too many status effects. I'd rather keep the ones that make sense and help her, while removing the single one that doesn't really add much.
As for the addons: I was going to go and count how many claw trap addons she actually has, but apparently the wiki is broken and specifically won't show addon lists at the moment? That's really inconvenient, goddamnit.
Anyway, there aren't that many and if we discount the ones that obviously won't change (specifically, the aura reveal on claw traps being applied and on them being broken), most of them aren't even that good to begin with. I'd welcome changing those to something more useful, but it'd be inaccurate to claim these changes would really affect them much. The ones that are bad now will be bad afterwards, and the ones that are decent now will be decent afterwards.
Anyway, there aren't that many
So there is 12 addons around claw traps... That's more than half of her addons.
Most of her addons are already bad, she has like 5 decent addons.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3674810#Comment_3674810
What I just laid out is how it should work.
I am fine with it being functionally impossible to get random claw traps outside of chase. I haven't given up on the idea of multiple survivors having multiple stacks, because I laid out that I don't mind the killer trying to spread those stacks IF they have to manage their drones and avoid as many hacks as possible while doing it.
My problem with the current scenarios where multiple survivors have multiple scans is that there's no effort or skill involved on the killer's side. It's a war of attrition that, if they win it, won't have required much from the killer. I don't think this currently a huge must-fix-immediately problem, since the killer's also fairly likely to lose the war of attrition, but it's still an unhealthy element that should be fixed.
So, yes, with skill and effort, you could get traps outside of chase. You'd just have to pay attention and be smart with your drone placements + recalls. It'd be harder than focusing on getting a trap on one person, which it should be because you're doing it to multiple survivors at once and trying to avoid needing to focus on them, but it would be doable.
So, no, we don't agree that it's a massive nerf. It's a noticeable one if you're the kind of player that does try and rely on stacks being permanent to drop chase frequently, but if you use her drones more actively you'll barely notice it at all and if you just put more effort into spreading stacks you'll be able to overcome it. That breaks out to a moderate nerf at worst.
I want to remove Mending because I don't feel that it does much of value, isn't particularly coherent with the rest of her kit, and probably contributes to the feeling of her kit being bloated with too many status effects. I'd rather keep the ones that make sense and help her, while removing the single one that doesn't really add much.
As for the addons: I was going to go and count how many claw trap addons she actually has, but apparently the wiki is broken and specifically won't show addon lists at the moment? That's really inconvenient, goddamnit.
Anyway, there aren't that many and if we discount the ones that obviously won't change (specifically, the aura reveal on claw traps being applied and on them being broken), most of them aren't even that good to begin with. I'd welcome changing those to something more useful, but it'd be inaccurate to claim these changes would really affect them much. The ones that are bad now will be bad afterwards, and the ones that are decent now will be decent afterwards.
I just don't think you actually play skull merchant with your takes, or I have no idea how are you playing.
Feel free to show your gameplay how you skillfully manages your drones and spread lock on... Also drop a chase on broken survivor.
Your changes would make her terrible. Simple as that.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3674738#Comment_3674738
Alright, I'll pull back a bit to try and explain what we're talking about here.
The major point I've been trying to get across, something that we might've lost sight of when dissecting very specific sentence fragments outside of their context, is that Skull Merchant shouldn't get given the whole value of her power without having to try. So when I say that survivors shouldn't be running around with single Lock On stacks, there's an asterisk.
That asterisk reads: Unless the killer is employing some kind of strategy revolving around leaving survivors with single stacks. On live servers, it'd be to win a war of attrition by getting them to two stacks and having a really short chase afterwards, which I think is rather unhealthy and passive, and I'd prefer to see that made harder so playing her more skilfully and actively is encouraged more.
With my changes, you'd still be able to do it, you'd just need to juggle drone placements and try to deny hacks wherever you can. This could just be not leaving drones out for too long, or it could be hiding them and trying to react to the survivor tripping it so you can recall the drone just before the hack starts. It'd still be doable, but it wouldn't be passive anymore, you'd actually be putting in active effort.
To make it even more simple, I'll lay it out like this:
If a survivor trips a drone outside of chase, here is what you should get: Information on your scanner, and twelve seconds of Haste.
If you want more than that, you should have to actually chase that survivor. If you want a claw trap on them, you should have to chase them. If you want to try and build them to that point without chasing them, you should have to pay some kind of attention and exercise some kind of skill and effort.
What you shouldn't be able to get is random free injuries on the other side of the map, because you played sloppily and had to drop chase a lot but stacks can't be removed so they still end up claw trapped from one unexpected drone.
Getting full value from skill expression, trap management, and chase fundamentals: Good.
Getting full value from sloppy passive play that requires little effort: Bad.
Getting small value from survivor mistakes: Acceptable, but it shouldn't match what you get by actually trying.
You can't seem to decide how it works...
So far you are fine with it being impassible to get claw trap outside of chase, based on giving up completely on your idea of three survivors with 2 stacks, because even you have to realize it's impossible. So I think you got back on it.
Ok, so should be impossible to get claw trap outside of chase, we can work with that. Just don't try to act like it's possible to do with your skill, because it simply wouldn't be.
Can we at least aggree that this is massive nerf?
Why remove mending? You make it harder to get claw trap and effect is also worse? Shouldn't we buff claw traps when it's so hard to get them on survivors with your change? It doesn't make any sense.
And there would need to be addon pass and just rework most addons that works on claw traps only, because those would be useless.
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You are not going to play if killers don't want to play, just saying...
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3674707#Comment_3674707
Something I've neglected to really elaborate on, and that is my fault, I'll cop to it, is that getting claw traps out of chase would be something the killer can make happen. I've been hitting the point that it shouldn't happen randomly and without input from the killer, and I stand by that, but we should of course acknowledge that the Skull Merchant would have some control over it.
Remember, with my hypothetical changes, survivors would have to hack drones to remove a single stack of Lock On. So, if they're sitting at two stacks, but there's only one drone on the map and it's nowhere near them... they're just sitting at two stacks, permanently. That might seem like an extreme example, but consider a more plausible one: Three survivors are sitting at two stacks, and the fourth is in chase, but there are three drones out. Not everyone can hack twice, there aren't enough drones, so those stacks are going to stay-- and if any of those traps are hidden ones, trying to find something to hack might result in an unexpected claw trap instead.
If the killer is actively paying attention to Lock On stacks, keeping track of their drone locations, and making sure to recall drones that look too easy to get to and hack, they'd still stand a reasonable chance of getting claw traps outside of chase-- at the very least, they'd be able to keep survivors close to being claw trapped for their next chase.
They'd just have to try. It wouldn't be passive, there'd be room for messing it up, and there'd be room to counter it. That is all necessary for a balanced and fair power.
So, if they're sitting at two stacks
This doesn't work with your other comment:
Dropping chase before getting the trap, even on live, is kind of a waste of your time
Tell me exactly how survivor gets two lock on in any other way than skull merchant leaving him with lock on stacks -> which would be bad idea, when they can remove them.
Every time survivor on their own runs into drone, they are free to remove that lock on. So survivors outside of chase will never get above 1 stack.
Three survivors are sitting at two stacks
How the hell this situation would even happen?
Btw skull merchant can't recall drone when survivor started disarm, so you can't really even try to deny it when survivor get tagged.
At one point you say dropping a chase before claw trap is waste time and on other hand you say broken is needed, so you have option to drop a chase. Where at point of broken survivor, you overcommited a lot for this, so you need to get that down. Leaving survivor with 1/2 stacks probably didn't take much time.
This whole comment you just made only works if you keep leaving chase against survivors with lock on, which is waste of time as you said...
I don't believe Skull merchant is in state for direct nerfs. There is definetly room for changes, so she is not a massive noob stomper, but your idea is basically 6 nerfs and some of them are massive. She is already weaker and easier to play against comapre to her previous versions. You are just trying to create Freddy 2.0
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@jonifire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3674710#Comment_3674710
Xernoton, I disagree with him. The map is a lot easier for killers now in my opinion and feels so bad as survivor.
Depends on what killer, I guess. I really wouldn't call that map easy at least for M1 killers. Main is still annoying, top floor is still hard to defend, survivors can still waste a lot of time on that car loop.
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According to some killers this map was even easier before the rework
Who the hell said this?
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3673711#Comment_3673711
Responding to entire sentences might help you here, instead of just fragments.
For instance, the full sentence for that second point is this: "It's possible, but as a hypothetical, like a head-pop on Pig: it's not meant to actually happen, it's meant to be a possibility that pushes players to act."
Taking the entire sentence into account, we can see that when I say it's possible, I do not mean that you'll actually get to rely on it happening in a real match. When survivors go hack drones, yes, they won't be claw trapped outside of chase. This is what we want, because it's forcing survivors into certain actions, and they wouldn't be forced if the possibility weren't there. As I say, it is a hypothetical, not a guarantee.
What we don't want is for survivors to end up getting claw trapped outside of chase because they messed up once after the Skull Merchant kept passively hitting them with one or two scans and dropping chase, for whatever reason. What we don't want is for the thing people say about Skull Merchant - that she takes no skill because everything she does is passive value for hitting a button - to actually be true.
It isn't true, currently, because there are plenty of elements of her kit that take skill and aren't passive. Those are the things we should emphasise, and the passive, cheesy, war-of-attrition stuff needs to be de-emphasised. Ergo, survivors need a way to clear Lock On stacks. I think this being tied to hacking drones is a good idea, but if there's some other good idea out there I'm open to hearing it.
If survivors do blindly stumble into a drone because they weren't paying attention, yes, they should get to clear that Lock On stack. They've already given the killer information and Haste-- if the killer wants anything more than that, they should have to try. They should have to actually put some kind of effort, skill, and gameplay into capitalising on the survivor's mistake, instead of getting given it for free. That's already how you play Skull Merchant well, so losing this would be completely immaterial, it shouldn't affect you.
Remember, also, that survivors getting scanned outside of chase shouldn't happen. They can see drones both in the air and in the ring projected onto the ground. So, if we give lesser skilled players a helping hand to make sure they aren't getting scans built up outside of chase if they react to the drone they missed (or more skilled players a hand when they couldn't see the drone's ring, if the placement is good), that means we can adjust Skull Merchant on the assumption that scans only accumulate in chase, which means that hypothetically she can be buffed in that area if she needs it. You can't make scans or claw traps too punishing if they can build up randomly across the map without any input from the killer.
Letting survivors remove lock on on disarm is massive nerf that basically removes her 1v4 element and it's just stealth / weak 1v1.
You compare it with pig traps. Those are "traps" just by name and their slowdown is completely different level compare to drones.
I have no idea what went through your head, when you thought there is need for more nerfs on top of this massive nerf, which makes it brainless for survivors in my opinion.
Also quite important topic, if they would ever go for something like this, don't forget full addon pass. Most of her addons are around clawtrap, which is useless, if you completely remove even a chance to get claw trap outside of chase. Those addons are already quite bad, but they would be nemesis level trash with your change.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3673680#Comment_3673680
I don't think I should keep just repeating myself, so I'll say these about one more time and then I think we'll just have to go our separate ways:
You shouldn't be getting random claw traps on survivors outside of chase, unless they're massively messing up and completely ignoring drones. That isn't something that'd be fair if it were reliable, you should have to put some kind of effort into getting claw traps onto survivors. It's possible, but as a hypothetical, like a head-pop on Pig: it's not meant to actually happen, it's meant to be a possibility that pushes players to act.
There's still a point to creative and hidden drone placements, which is that survivors will run more blindly into them in chase. Hiding traps is better than putting traps right in the middle of the loop where the survivor can see them from a mile away no matter which trap killer you're playing. Survivors have eyes, if the drone is obvious they'll be doing their best to avoid it. Plus, y'know, hitting survivors with random scans outside of chasing them is still good for you because it's information and Haste? It doesn't have to convert to a claw trap to be useful, you get those two things even if the drone is hacked straight away and the Lock On is removed.
Survivors being able to find and hack drones to clear Lock On is good, because it's a time investment away from generators and because it pushes the killer player to be less passive. This is due to it being less likely to win a war of attrition by relying on single scans at cheap loops, meaning you have to actually try. You, as a killer, can also deny them that possibility with your drone placements and with recalling, depending on how you want to play.
Broken is better than Deep Wound because it allows you to drop chase on a claw trapped survivor and have that actually matter. Deep Wound is a small time investment and makes a tiny difference in chase, sure, but Broken is both more powerful and more coherent with what she does. Getting scanned exposes your location, makes you vulnerable, and makes her more deadly. If you're claw trapped and Broken, you're at the mercy of a killer who knows where you are and can hide her terror radius. If you're claw trapped and just have Deep Wound, you can heal up safely and being claw trapped barely matters.
You still won't want to drop chase on claw trapped survivors either way, but with Broken, you can if it'd make sense and you'd be getting something out of doing so. With Deep Wound, you get next to nothing and dropping chase is something you cannot capitalise on later.
they're massively messing up
How is running into 5 drones not massively messing up? You already need to massively mess up to get claw trap without ever being in chase...
It's possible
It wouldn't be if disarm removes lock on, as I said...
which is that survivors will run more blindly into them in chase
There is no need for it, I can just put claw trap in middle of the loop, most of them have walls around, so drones are not visible until you get close. There is 0 reason to even try being creative with drones.
Survivors being able to find and hack drones to clear Lock On is good,
That's the thing, they don't need to try, they don't need to avoid. It's not really slowdown when survivors don't need to pay attention that much.
Broken is better than Deep Wound because it allows you to drop chase on a claw trapped survivor
Why would you drop the chase against survivor with Claw trap? Have you actually ever done it? That's 1 tag away from Hindered, which is going to end the chase on most loops.
Only thing that survivor can do is work on gen when broken, with meding only thing survivor can do is mend and possibly heal. If you expect to return in stealth, then it doesn't really matter, if you return to survivor working on gen, or healing...
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@menacing_goose said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3673672#Comment_3673672
Pain res was nerfed and remained meta dh got nerfed remained in the meta and they needed it again and you see less of it now you don’t see less of pain res you see it almost every game meaning you just don’t get the argument at all
You said it's in meta from release. Well, when there was never any new perk created that could replace it, how the hell is it supposed to leave meta?
Current pain res is weaker than first version, which was released by a lot. Issue is competition is very weak, even worse with new 3-gen feature, so again how the hell is it supposed to leave meta?
Give us alternatives, then nerf % if you want. But right now, there is not many alternatives.
What else other than Pain res / pop you want to use for slowdown?
Eruption / Surge? Well, 3-gen feature has different opinion about this one. 3 downs and gen is blocked, yay.
Ruin? Survivors looking for ruin is better slowdown than it's effect and hex spawns are really bad.
Any gen other kicking perk? 3-gen feature is back again. What a nice feature...
Then you have some gen blocking perks, which are probably hated even more than Pain res.
Deadlock works for few builds, but otherwise it has low synergies with other perks and doesn't have snowball potencial.
Corrupt, still great perk for most killers, but pain res does kinda same thing (early slowdown), but better.
Grim Embrace / DMS. Those are good with specific killers, but I wouldn't use them for generic builds.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3672894#Comment_3672894
1: And it'd be possible afterwards if survivors are careless. What it wouldn't be is guaranteed for any player that knows the right trap spots, and it probably shouldn't be. If Merchant actually got random free injures across the map, people's complaints about her being skill-less would be more accurate.
2: That's where drones go...? You put them between objectives and in key loops, that's where they go. They're not really doing much for you if you put them directly on a generator, they don't work like that anymore.
3: Zoning survivors (the default killer concept, not a power thing) is a skill. Trap killers need to be able to influence the direction of the chase to some degree, or cover their bases by picking multiple spots skilled survivors would want to run to place their traps in.
4: She doesn't. That was an example, not a direct comparison.
5: Marginally, and after that small amount of time, they're back on gens anyway but they're healthy. Them being on gens injured is better than them being on gens healthy, especially if you can see them the whole time either way.
6: A fair point, but Deathslinger is still designed around it more than she is, it's to make up for the fact that he has to invest time into every hit due to the reeling mechanic. Merchant doesn't need it to make up for anything, because of point seven here.
7: That's the thing, a drone does do something against an injured survivor, I said this in the post. Even setting aside Broken, it provides you with Hindered, making the down significantly easier. The Deep Wound honestly isn't doing anything, especially without Broken, that you wouldn't get anyway.
And it'd be possible afterwards if survivors are careless
It would be possible only if you drop chase with survivor having 2 stacks, then he needs to not look around and run into your drone. Otherwise it simply won't be possible to get claw trap outside of chase.
Everytime survivor runs into a claw trap, they can disarm it, which would mean removing that stack they already got. They don't need to look for it.
I can run into 5 drones on my search for hex totem and I will have 0 lock on, because everytime I can just run directly to it without crouching, because I have immunity after tag and disarm the drone -> back to 0.
Dropping chase before getting the trap, even on live, is kind of a waste of your time
and as you said, dropping chase with 2 stacks left is waste of time, so that's not an option....
You said you like creative drone placements, then why make it invalid and pointless? If I chase survivor into it, I don't need creative spots, just drop it into middle of the loop is good enough.
drone does do something against an injured survivor
That's what it does against survivor with claw trap, not as effect of placing the drone.
I don't really get why are you so attached to broken. You changes would make it simply impossible to get claw trap outside of chase, so that's useless there and you are not going to drop chase on survivor with clawtrap, so broken is also useless there. Unless you play every game against insta-heal, which I doubt.
Mending at least makes harder to see for survivors, so it kinda helps in chase and survivors can't just stand for infinite amount of time, so in chase Mending -> Broken.
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@menacing_goose said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3673300#Comment_3673300
Pain res top used killer perk pop right behind it pain res has been in meta since artist release and looking at those numbers and considering how many people are playing that’s a whole lot of people using those two perks grim is being used cuz of its recent buff and entered top 10 most used perks
Pain res top used killer perk pop right behind it pain res has been in meta since artist release
what other good regression perk was released since that time?
CoB? We know how that went...
And adren is already being tweaked so that argument doesn’t really help you now
Pain res was already nerfed and reworked, so how that helps your argument?
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3672880#Comment_3672880
In order:
1: Of course it'd be possible, it would just require survivors to ignore their stacks. That doesn't change with my proposed adjustments to her power, that part remains the same, so it's just placing drones in unexpected angles. The thing about that one is that you see when they take that stack, which means bare minimum they're setting themselves up for a chase.
The part I think a lot of people miss is that hacking drones removing Lock On stacks only penalises setting drones down ahead of time if people are running around with Lock On stacks outside of chase. That isn't something that should actually happen, and if you do drop chase on someone with Lock On stacks, at least you know they're probably staying off generators to go find and hack a drone... which you know about, so they're not exactly safe in this scenario.
2: Of course there's a point to doing it: Chase survivors into it. Actually be there and capitalise on the fact that you surprised a survivor with an unexpected angle. Bare minimum, if they run to the drone and disarm it, they're spending time doing that instead of generators, but even so- they're traps, you should actually be there to act when they're sprung.
Also, if it happens multiple times, each hack is only one stack removed. It'd take time to get two gone, meaning you can ambush them for the third, especially if you are dropping chase on survivors with Lock On stacks for whatever reason.
3: They're injured, and you have stealth. Forcing them to not heal makes them vulnerable for later, or forces them to play much more cautiously, which slows down their efficiency.
4: I have no idea how STBFL would change this, but even if it does, that's one perk you may or may not have. I don't think it's super relevant to this conversation?
5: I agree that Broken is more effective against newer players, but I don't agree that this should mean we can't put it on a killer's basekit. That's a full half of Plague's identity, and while Plague doesn't have stealth by default it's hardly as though that makes a ton of difference against newer players and it's not as though she can't have stealth.
As for never dropping chase against claw trapped survivors, sure, you probably don't want to. With Broken, at least you know you could and have something to capitalise on later. The Mend action does not take that much time, it isn't all that useful for you and Merchant isn't really designed around it the way someone like Legion or Deathslinger would be. She has a lot more going for her and none of it requires Deep Wounds.
Of course it'd be possible
Right now it's possible against survivors who just don't watch where they are running. Shouldn't happen often, but it does.
If they could remove lock on, it's possible to get claw trap outside of chase only against survivors who have no idea how Skully works, which is just pathetic waste of time.
Of course there's a point to doing it: Chase survivors into it
This also means you can use drones only on loops with no objective, because if you have it anywhere near gens, then it's just lock-on removal station. Well, some of best loops usually have gens around them, so it doesn't really work.
Chase survivors into it.
Decent survivors choose their pathing, your options to change it are limited as base speed killer.
That's a full half of Plague's identity
Why exactly she needs to have anything common with Plague? That's part we got after rework, so you can't even argue about some original identity.
The Mend action does not take that much time
mending + healing and you can see their location whole time. Better than just doing gens imo.
Deathslinger would be
Merchant is way better than Deathslinger for using Mending properly. She is quite good hit&run killer. He is far from it.
she has a lot more going for her and none of it requires Deep Wounds.
Same goes for Broken.... Deep wounds is needed so drones are not completely useless against injured survivors.
Broken is not needed for anything. You could easily make it so claw trap always make you injured in deep wound. That's it. There is no IF.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
While I agree there needs to be a way to remove Lock On without surviving a claw trap, I don’t think tying it to drone hacking is the best way to do it since that would heavily discourage setting up drones outside of chase. If anything I feel like placing drones outside of chase should be encouraged more than just placing drones mid-chase. Placing drones mid-chase feels too easy and doesn’t have enough drawbacks since she isn’t slowed down at all for doing it unlike a lot of other killers with similar abilities (eg. Artist placing a crow) and drones initialize very quickly after being placed so survivors often don’t have any time to react to drone placement. I'm not saying she necessarily should get slowed down for it (that may feel too clunky at this point), but making drones take slightly longer to initialize after being placed may give survivors a little more counterplay.
As for lock-on removal, I think a better idea for it that wouldn't discourage setting up drones ahead of time would just be reverting it to a timer-based system like it was originally. For example, let’s go back to the old lock-on visual with the circular gauge on the survivor’s portrait (what used to take 10 seconds to fill up in active zones) but rework it a bit:
-Getting scanned once (or failing a drone hack) fills up the gauge by 40%. So after 3 scans it will be full and the survivor gets a claw trap/becomes broken.
-After getting scanned, lock on doesn’t regress for up to 30 seconds (this timer resets if scanned again).
-After that 30 seconds of not being scanned, lock on will regress at 1% per second. So if you get scanned once and then never again, lock on would be back to zero after 70 seconds. 2 scans would be fully removed after 110 seconds.
The numbers on this system could be tweaked but this is a starting point at least. Since there’s a 30 second delay on regression, you can still get a survivor claw trapped with 3 scans if you are actively chasing them. Making the per-scan amount 40% means you still need at least 3 scans to get a claw trap, but adds a bit more leeway for the Skull Merchant since you can lose up to 20% to regression without needing a 4th scan to make up for it.
As for her having a lot of status effects in her kit, the deep wound isn’t what bothers me at all. I feel it’s an appropriate penalty for getting a claw trap while already injured. What I think needs to go is her haste status. It’s too frequent and too easy to get for how strong haste is in general and it just doesn’t feel necessary anymore, it feels like the only reason it exists is because it’s a leftover from her old power. Furthermore if this is removed then it adds an additional reason why the deep wound should stay since otherwise without the haste it may become a good idea for injured survivors with 2 scans to just intentionally take a claw trap to get rid of their lock on faster, if they know the Skull Merchant is busy or won’t be interested in chasing them. So being forced to mend in that situation would add a necessary drawback to that strategy imo.
-Removed the Haste status effect from the Skull Merchant's basekit.
In return for removing haste and adding lock-on regression, I feel the following buffs would be appropriate:
-Tracking duration when being scanned without getting a claw trap is increased from 12 seconds to 15 seconds.
-Claw Trap battery life (and the associated Broken effect) is increased from 45 seconds to 60 seconds.
-The Hindered effect on claw trapped survivors is increased from 10% to 12%. This is intended to partially make up for removing the haste effect, to make this less of a nerf when chasing a claw-trapped survivor and to keep claw traps rewarding for the killer.
I agree with your suggestions for making drone rotation more obvious to survivors when switching the direction and in regards to overlapping drones. Your suggestion for drone rotation was perfect imo:
-Drones now make a beep sound when their rotation direction is switched.
As for overlapping drones, the current drone radius is 10 meters and the minimum distance between 2 drones is 12 meters. I think this would work:
-Increased the minimum distance between 2 drones from 12m to 18m.
This doesn't eliminate drone overlapping entirely but makes it less common and significantly reduces the amount of drone area that can overlap, without restricting drone placement as much as the original Skull Merchant (old Skull Merchant had a 22 meter minimum distance between drones).
Regarding how long drones stay hacked: I agree the current 45 seconds is too short and doesn't feel impactful enough (hacking often feels like a waste of time as survivor), but I also feel your suggestion of 90 seconds may be too long. I would try something around 60-70 seconds.
Then finally a few adjustments for addons:
-High-Current Upgrade: Removing the haste from the basekit is a significant nerf to an already not very good addon, so it should be buffed to increase tracking duration by 3 seconds (was 1 second).
-Vital Targeting Processor: This is one of her best addons and the above changes make a large portion of it basekit, so I feel it should get a new effect. New effect: Increases the delay after being scanned before lock-on begins to regress by 20%.
-Expired Batteries: I don't have an idea for this addon right now but since the haste is gone from her basekit this addon needs a new effect.
Sooo:
- impossible to get claw trap outside of chase
- lose haste
but she will be able to see how much little her drones do, nice...
She will be trash without the haste, absolutely nothing for chase. What about nerfing Hindered and buffing haste? I rarely get to Hindered anyway, so any buffs to it are useless.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3672793#Comment_3672793
I mean... should it be possible to get claw traps outside of chase?
It already isn't, functionally, with the only exceptions being survivors massively messing up and the crazy drone placements that hide the ring so survivors can't see it. One is a skill issue that would be absent against decent/aware players, and the other is kind of questionable considering it removes intentional counterplay.
I like those crazy drone placements, so I'd rather see them be counterable rather than remove them. They are the only time the killer can engineer claw traps outside of chase, after all, you should have to exercise some skill in getting there and in capitalising on it.
As to only getting Broken in chase - that at least makes dropping chase after the claw trap worth it, especially with hacking removing Lock On stacks. Dropping chase before getting the trap, even on live, is kind of a waste of your time. If all you got was an injure and Deep Wound, there'd be almost no benefit to ever dropping chase, she'd be a hyper-committal killer. I do want her to have to commit a little bit more than she currently does, but not that much.
should it be possible to get claw traps outside of chase
yes
should it be easy? no
survivors need to screw it, or you need to place drone in unexpected angle. Your changes make this impossible.
There would be absolutely no reason to have drones around the map. You would be able to use them only for stealth (recall asap) and in chase. Which seems really boring to me.
I like those crazy drone placements
Well, there is no point in doing it when survivor can remove lock on by disarming. You don't even need to crouch to disarm them, you can just run towards them, take a lock on and then just remove it by disarm. Super brain dead.
that at least makes dropping chase after the claw trap worth it
How so? Only thing broken survivor can do is work on gen.
Dropping chase before getting the trap, even on live, is kind of a waste of your time
not if you have STBFL
If all you got was an injure and Deep Wound, there'd be almost no benefit to ever dropping chase
You already never drop the chase on survivor with claw trap, simply because you are one tag away from Hindered.
Issue is survivors who get injured outside of chase, which are mostly new players. Deep wound is just small slowdown for Skully, but it won't stop them from healing. New players are not good at playing injured, so broken is massive noob stomper for this.
For Skully broken doesn't mean that much, even if it would be deep wound, you still have information on that survivor with claw trap, so you would be able to get there in time to stop them from healing.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3672776#Comment_3672776
Not really? If she places them in advance, that means she's going to chase survivors towards them. If this punishes her for anything, it's starting a chase, getting a stack or two, and then dropping that chase. Setting them in advance has basically nothing to do with that.
As for the Deep Wound, removing the Broken is a way bigger nerf and not one I'm personally a fan of. Plague applies a permanent Broken and that's okay, Skull Merchant only applies it for 45 seconds by default. Sure, SM gets other effects too, but that's why hers is on a timer.
Plague applies a permanent Broken and that's okay
Plague is not stealth killer.
Removing broken would not be big deal. You usually get there only in chase anyway unless survivors screwed it.
If survivors could remove lock on with disarm, that's why bigger nerf than just removing broken. You can never drop chase with survivor having lock on, because it's gone. It would be impossible to get claw trap outside of chase. Why would you care about missing broken, when you will get it only in chase anyway?
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Avoiding being hooked the entire match only goes so far when half your team is eliminated
There is something wrong with your playstyle if this happens often... You should take a chase.
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Hacking a drone should remove a stack of Lock On
So Skully gets punished for using her drones in advance and her drones are completely useless outside of chase....
Remove Deep Wound from her kit
It would be better to remove broken and just make it always deep wound, so new players are not so punished and forced to play injured.
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Issue is you need to play completely different against bot than player.
Bots are kinda cheating with wallhack, but predictable.
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In what world are Windows and Zanshin's tactic same power level?
Zanshin's tactic is more annoying than helpful for most killers.
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@RFSa09 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3672031#Comment_3672031
mmr is bad but the old one was even worse tbh, rank 13 playing against rank 1 etc etc
rank 13 playing against rank 1
that usually happened only because of SWF, but you have same with MMR, just don't see it.
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Can't find the reasonable part...
So far it's just nerfing into oblivion.
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@Senaxu said:
To be honest I would like to know what has to happen for all 4 survivors to DC.
This usually happens so rarely that an extra regulation shouldn't be necessary and I personally don't mind finishing the rest of the match against bots.
Of course, if you follow a certain playstyle, bots don't have any emotions and that may make completing the match less attractive.
I can understand that, but I still have no pity
You usually need SWF for this and few players have to be crybabies.
It's funny how many people I managed to get DC with Legion :D just because they couldn't handle "insta-down" with Enduring
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3672005#Comment_3672005
Im desperate to play killers because the BP incentive is +100% on survivors 85% of the time. Killer queue take 5min to find a match.
I almost always have 100% BP for killers between 20:00-1:00 +/-
afternoon etc is time for survivors.
I was talking about time before healing nerf, where survivor queue were hell on earth. Right now there is time to play both roles.
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I highly doubt anyone would go for it. Unless you go for some limited rewards that would make it worth it.
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@KA149108 said:
I miss when matches were more chill, you could search a chest or break a totem. Now you have to sits on gens and only do gens or you kill your team.
Also, killers say they are gen rushed but what else are survivors supposed to do?! If I don't sit on gens then we all die because as soon as the first survivor chased goes down they are tunneled straight off hook. I for one don't want to play survivior and just die every match (I don't expect to escape every match either).
killers say they are gen rushed but what else are survivors supposed to do
You realize both sides are at fault for this, right?