VibranToucan
VibranToucan
About
- Username
- VibranToucan
- Joined
- Visits
- 0
- Last Active
- —
Comments
-
@Foggyguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998189#Comment_3998189
Why should it get nerfed? There's tons of perks to reveal survivors and help in chase.
For the reasons I mentioned in the post. Its going to be especially hard on newer killers, and even on expirienced killer its frequently allowing people to break chases by just being able to break LOS for a bit.
Perks countering something doesn't mean that thing is neccesarily balanced. If there was a perk that said "Unless Survivors see the auras of any windows, pallets or generators they are exposed and suffer from a 25% hindered," it would not be okay just because Windows of Oportunity and Deja Vu are good and common perks.
-
@Foggyguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998135#Comment_3998135
It's the implication that we see time and time again with posts like this. Last month it was fog vials were too strong because killers were slightly inconvenienced by some mist. Now it's the argument that dedicating 3/4 of your build to being good against one thing is strong against one thing.
Tell you what, if you think that killers should be able to max have 1 gen slowdown perk at least you'll be consistent. After all it's too strong for a killer to have more than a few perks dedicated to doing one thing right?
- I quite literally believe that Fog Vials should be rebuffed and that the limit was too harsh.
- When did I ever say its too strong to have more than a few perks dedicated to doing one thing? I don't care if you run Shadowstep, Lightweight, Calm Spirit, Distortion. It was this specific combination that should get nerfed, not the concept of dedicating multiple slots to the same thing.
-
@Foggyguy said:
Killer post #100000 saying stealth should not exist and survivors should only genrush.
Also… yeah dedicating three perks to one thing should be strong.
You are not dedicating three perks to it. Ghost Notes reduces your exhaustion duration, and sprint burst is already a really good perk. So you are dedicating 1 perk to having extremely powerful stealth. Also, where did I ever say stealth shouldnt exist?
-
@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3989895#Comment_3989895
Dude. Do math. Crossing map from side to side takes 110 % killer about 1.5s longer than 115 % killer. The 5 % difference isn't effective, everything above 10 % is.
1. When people talk about Blight speed they usually mean his rush, not his walking.
2. Dead by Daylight isn't a race to get across the map from one side to another. It's a game about timings. The difference between getting a hit one second before a Survivor vaults and as they vault has basically the same impact. The difference between hitting a survivor as they vault or barely missing the hit has huge impact on the game. Half a second can mean one more round around a loop before you have to drop the pallet.
-
Outside of people actively doing 4k streaks, I have never seen anyone who counted a 3k as a killer loss.
-
@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3991233#Comment_3991233
So, it isn't going to significantly change the outcome of the match. I'll also point out that the OP didn't specify when, but let's look at it anyway:
2+gens remaining kill: "early" enough that it's basically a win. Killer would have to make several massive mistakes to give up more than one escape. This is already the goal of tunneling on live.
1 or 0: late/end game, your going to want the kill already.
The other big thing that people aren't understanding (or deliberately ignoring) is that it's not just an early kill, it also has to be the last survivor who was hooked.
So in basically every case people are freaking out about (pig, Onryo) the killer can just hook someone else, then go collect their free kill without triggering the downsides.
In a "worst case scenario" if Onryo Downs someone with condemn who was also the last person hooked, they can just slug and have 90 seconds to go hook someone else before collecting their free kill.
I really don't see the panic/doom scenario here, even in these niche circumstances. Every aspect of this is within the killers control and choice.
Its not like at 2+ gens the game is lost and at 1 gen the game is automatically won while the killers get a kill. The killer getting their first kill at 1 or 2 gens and then keeping the pressure up and winning or failing to do so and multiple Survivors escaping is normal. 3 Survivors at 1 or 2 gens is a wineable scenario for either side.
Also, the gen speed up is permanent if you get a kill at a "low" hook count, regardless of if you last hook them. Its just that in addition to that, if the last hooked Survivor is killed then that just turns off gen regression. And even then you can't just "hook someone else" This would take so much time and might lose you the game.
And then that Survivor gets picked up, does a tape and is no longer condemned. Even with the 90 second basekit UB you can still get picked up by other Survivors. Especially with the faster crawling and self recovery.
-
@AmpersandUnderscore said:
I honestly see no universe where getting an early kill with the killer ability will have any impact. Removing one survivor is still better than having regression, and an early 3v1 is still basically an auto-win.
Maybe I'll be with once we see the changes in action, but I truly think that if people are really worried about triggering the downsides, that this anti tunnel system will do it's job. People will naturally graduate away from hard tunneling early to avoid the penalty.
Its not an "early" kill. If Survivors and Killer are both really good, its not rare to only have like 4 or 5 hooks by the time its down to 1 gen. For example, Hens recently made a soloqueue video where played with good randoms and against strong kilers and in most of the games the killer had 5 or less hooks by the time the 4th gen popped.
-
@Emeal said:
even the strongest killers have a hard time 12 hooking
I disagree I think this is absolutely wrong, I think either people are using perks to bloat their MMR up or sweating alot themselves. Both of which will increase your MMR and get you higher MMR survivors.
If you play in a chill way, your MMR rebalances and you get chill matches. I have absolutely no issue getting 12hooks on trapper.
Ofc that would require a Killer to maybe lose some matches, which will attack ones ego.How is playing for the win bloating MMR? Yeah, if killers 12 hooked every games they'd lose more games. Same for pallet saves, SWF, Syringes, etc... should those be considered MMR bloating too?
-
"If a Survivor is left in the Dying State for a total of 90 seconds during a match, they gain the ability to pick themselves up after fully recovering."
So one use of plot twist just charges a third of that time for free?
-
@ThatRyanB said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3989532#Comment_3989532
Good question! If you've been left in the Dying State for 90 seconds and self pick-up, the 90 second timer doesn't reset. That means that if you're left in the Dying State again, you'll be able to self pick-up again if you fully recover.
This seems way too strong, I hope we get some massives nerfs to sabo/saves/wiggle perks to make it up for it.
-
@4thdslip said:
Old Myers will literally still exist…
Idk about you, but I usually play Myers with 2 add ons. Especially considering I need to invest into iris to maintain that playstyle. And they also said they are reworking his add-on, so bye bye to Tombstone and Mirror probably.
-
@ReverseVelocity said:
It's just an extended lunge. He already gets that in Tier 3 (just not as far), and a lot of Myers players run Coup anyway to achieve something similar to this new ability.
In the past Survivors were passively exposed. Now you need to use the dash to down.
-
Onryo needs buffs but being able to kill Survivors just for holding tapes would absolutely be way too punishing on Survivors.
-
@RafterMaster said:
It's simple, disallow tunnelling, until gen 4, then no holds barred. Gives people some time in the game (with friends), then it's less of an issue.
I don't mind the tunnel, as long as it isn't immediately into the game.
How would you "disallow" tunneling? The more you protect the recently unhooked Survivor, the more likely they can abuse that power. It is already not a bad strategy to run across the map to take a hit if you have OTR + DS.
-
Saves are incredibly weak in 2v8, which is one of the reasons Basekit UB is fine. If one Survivor tries going for a save your teammates can just stop them.
-
The mechanics of 2v8 heavily encourage tunneling tbh. If you hook a Survivor who is not dead on hook over one who is dead on hook, not only do you miss out on the kill, Survivors get faster gen speeds and potentially a powerful passive.
-
@DaSonic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3987725#Comment_3987725
If Survivors go down consistently in less than 16 seconds, that is a skill issue on their part, and the killer would very likely have won without tunneling. And if you don't get for 16 seconds off the hook its a free health state.
Well you can't really generalise and say that a survivor should never go down quickly since that also undermines Killer skill or any Anti-Loop powers of the ever growing roster of Killers. And you know, if the Killers could have easily won without tunneling in that case, why didn't he do it? Because it is easier to do with tunneling. Honestly, in all, comparing a playstyle with items doesn't make sense either way, that's like comparing professional football players via the shoes they are wearing and how that somehow dictates how they play and not just by how they play.
Dead Man's Switch requires you to let go off the gen, which in your view of tunneling the killer doesnt do. Grim Embrace requires different hooks to be remotely good. Corrupt only blocks some gens, meaning Survivor can just do the others and deactivates once you get a down. Surge requires the person to take chase to the gens being done. Thrilling Tremors only blocks gens nobody is working on. Deadlock and Pain Res are the only ones where you get free pressure without doing anything while tunneling. And by the same logic, Survivors have perks and items. Deja Vu, Hyperfocus, Brand New Parts, etc…
I mean, I disagree but I'll chalk this up to the difference in what we play and how strong we percieve different perks. The answer is probably somewhere in the middle. Agree to disagree.
If cheap means "low skill high reward", then anything is cheap. Lets talk about window vaults. By vaulting one you get distance on the killer for the price of holding shift and pressing a spacebar. Slap on Finesse to make the vault save and Lithe to get distance to use it on the next vault. Also it is not technically impossible to win as Survivor without using vaults? So is vaulting a cheap tactic that needs to be addressed?
This is just a logical fallacy, because you can't break down complicated bigger things into smaller simpler things, and then claim the entire thing is simple as a result.
Vaulting as an action itself might just require a button press, but much more goes into it to make it meaningful in the game. As a survivor and also killer you have to be able to judge your angle to the vault, distance to the vault, distance to the killer or survivor, whether it is useful to vault, whether it is useful to pull a mindgame or not, (this only for survivors) whether the angle you have to the vault will result in a medium or fast vault, which might change how you approach it and if you do decide to vault where to go after the vault. And of course, actually pressing the button to vault. In a vacuum, each of these things might be simple and given some time, you could probably determine the optimal play, but in a game, where you might have to do splitsecond decisions based on all of these things and more like whether the survivor or killer is doubling back, it is a very complicated task to do in a fairly fast paced game like DBD.
Don't get me wrong, in a lot of cases the answer to the question of "should you vault" is an obvious one, depending on the circumstances, but when killer and survivors are mindgaming each other at a loop and you make the right decisions based on game knowledge and prior experiences, that's what one would call skill. The difference to tunneling in this case, is that vaulting is a high risk play in a lot of cases, where one wrong splitsecond decision vault could mean getting hit or downed, as to where tunneling is a safe bet in most cases. As killer, you usually have to worry about quite alot of things in a game at all times if you don't tunnel, like what the map looks like, tracking where survivors are, having a general overview of gen progress on non completed things, an overview of survivor resources and maybe even perks.
Why? Because they have a huge impact at how you approach the game and where you want to be at anyone time. With tunneling, the answer of where you wanna be is obvious at all times. At the start of the game you need to find your tunneling target, and then chase them. When you hook them, go to a generator that might be getting worked on, but not too far away from the hook as to where you can't return it. With ever smaller maps that's getting easier and easier aswell. Once the target gets unhooked, you return to the hook, where, unless you ran to the opposite site of the map (which should result in you getting punished since its a misplay and should be obvious if you plan to tunnel), you will either find the survivors healing, or scratch marks leading to them. Rinse and repeat. The first survivor will be dead fairly quickly and now you are at a massive advantage with the 1v3. Just one more hook and finding another chase is enough to halt generator progress completely. But hey, you still have 2 generators left if you tunneled well, or 1 if you didn't.
Also if tunneling is as OP, easy and common as y'all are saying it must have a massive effect on the killrate and just removing it would drop it massively. Even in your view, it would argue for massive killer buffs along with anti-tunnel changes, not just anti-tunnel changes.
Okay, I will adjust my theory for you in that case. When the Anti-Tunnel changes take effect and everyone would stop tunneling immediately, then yes, for a while, I would expect the kill rates to fall, as people who have relied on it to win games lose more games. After a while though, it would adjust again and probably rise back to a similar, probably slightly lower Killrate as peoples MMR adjusts since they after a while will verse people that they can beat without tunneling. Killrates probably won't quite reach what they were before the anti-tunnel changes though, and that's where you then can apply buffs to rectify this issue. You could of course buff killers along with the tunnel changes, but if the tunnel changes turn out to be worthless, you have suddenly just massively buffed killers. Whether BHVR will go the route of Anti-Tunnel Changes first, killer buffs or later, or both at the same time, with potential killer nerfs down the line is up to them. One of the two has to happen, and depending what role you play most, you would probably prefer one of the two options. Either way, BHVR will get heat for their decision.
Well you can't really generalise and say that a survivor should never go down quickly since that also undermines Killer skill or any Anti-Loop powers of the ever growing roster of Killers. And you know, if the Killers could have easily won without tunneling in that case, why didn't he do it? Because it is easier to do with tunneling.
I mean not really. If you don't last more than 16 seconds in chase consistently the skill between you and the killer is big enough so that the killer deserves to win. Also, killers tunnel because they don't know that. You don't know if the game is easy or hard until you a certain amount of time invested in it. And sometimes if you want to win you need to tunnel.
Honestly, in all, comparing a playstyle with items doesn't make sense either way, that's like comparing professional football players via the shoes they are wearing and how that somehow dictates how they play and not just by how they play.
I mean if the shoes had a huge effect on the outcome of the game, with different types of shoes offering different huge upsides and downsides, and each player picking different shoes based on what they want to do, then yeah they should be discussed the same as strategy.
Vaulting as an action itself might just require a button press, but much more goes into it to make it meaningful in the game. As a survivor and also killer you have to be able to judge your angle to the vault, distance to the vault, distance to the killer or survivor, whether it is useful to vault, whether it is useful to pull a mindgame or not, (this only for survivors) whether the angle you have to the vault will result in a medium or fast vault, which might change how you approach it and if you do decide to vault where to go after the vault. And of course, actually pressing the button to vault. In a vacuum, each of these things might be simple and given some time, you could probably determine the optimal play, but in a game, where you might have to do splitsecond decisions based on all of these things and more like whether the survivor or killer is doubling back, it is a very complicated task to do in a fairly fast paced game like DBD.
Don't get me wrong, in a lot of cases the answer to the question of "should you vault" is an obvious one, depending on the circumstances, but when killer and survivors are mindgaming each other at a loop and you make the right decisions based on game knowledge and prior experiences, that's what one would call skill. The difference to tunneling in this case, is that vaulting is a high risk play in a lot of cases, where one wrong splitsecond decision vault could mean getting hit or downed, as to where tunneling is a safe bet in most cases. As killer, you usually have to worry about quite alot of things in a game at all times if you don't tunnel, like what the map looks like, tracking where survivors are, having a general overview of gen progress on non completed things, an overview of survivor resources and maybe even perks.
Why? Because they have a huge impact at how you approach the game and where you want to be at anyone time. With tunneling, the answer of where you wanna be is obvious at all times. At the start of the game you need to find your tunneling target, and then chase them. When you hook them, go to a generator that might be getting worked on, but not too far away from the hook as to where you can't return it. With ever smaller maps that's getting easier and easier aswell. Once the target gets unhooked, you return to the hook, where, unless you ran to the opposite site of the map (which should result in you getting punished since its a misplay and should be obvious if you plan to tunnel), you will either find the survivors healing, or scratch marks leading to them. Rinse and repeat. The first survivor will be dead fairly quickly and now you are at a massive advantage with the 1v3. Just one more hook and finding another chase is enough to halt generator progress completely. But hey, you still have 2 generators left if you tunneled well, or 1 if you didn't.
You could the same exact thing about vaulting abouT tunneling. Tunneling absolutely can lose the killer a game. And it is also a complex thing that requires a lot of decision making that you are oversimplifying here.
Okay, I will adjust my theory for you in that case. When the Anti-Tunnel changes take effect and everyone would stop tunneling immediately, then yes, for a while, I would expect the kill rates to fall, as people who have relied on it to win games lose more games. After a while though, it would adjust again and probably rise back to a similar, probably slightly lower Killrate as peoples MMR adjusts since they after a while will verse people that they can beat without tunneling.
That theory can't account for top or bottom MMR. Bottom MMR players can't fall lower, and top MMR players will match with the closest player. You can't have a top MMR made only out of Survivors.
Killrates probably won't quite reach what they were before the anti-tunnel changes though, and that's where you then can apply buffs to rectify this issue. You could of course buff killers along with the tunnel changes, but if the tunnel changes turn out to be worthless, you have suddenly just massively buffed killers. Whether BHVR will go the route of Anti-Tunnel Changes first, killer buffs or later, or both at the same time, with potential killer nerfs down the line is up to them. One of the two has to happen, and depending what role you play most, you would probably prefer one of the two options. Either way, BHVR will get heat for their decision.
Buffing down the line as a concept does not work well, if you want people to keep playing. If you nerf killer and then tell killer players "Hey, you might have a killrate of 24% against SWF now, but in a few months to year we will fix it" then people are just not going to play killer for a few months. Look at Skull Merchant. Her playrate is less than half of what it was when she got nerfed. If you want to nerf something, without it affecting the overall playrate, then the buffs need to come alongside it.
-
@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3987625#Comment_3987625
It came up now because you brought it up, even though we were talking about items and not SWF. But comparing SWF to tunneling is wildly unfair. The amount of pro, super-coordinated 4-mans is much lower than instances of tunneling. As killer, I rarely see them. Most people in parties are not some psycho meta squad. I've played with many people and I've never had much of an advantage because of it. Often, it's the opposite, because the reckless altruism gets us all killed. Playing together doesn't make you magically good at the game.
But as survivor, there's tunneling in about every 5th match I play. Everyone across the MMR spectrum has to deal with tunneling. Pro 4-mans, not so much.
Why should commonality determine balance? Hag is the lowest pickrate killer in the game. Does that mean they should never change hag again? What about maps? Map offerings are extremely rare nowadays and there are lik 45 different maps you could go to, so odds are any given map is very rare, and each time they add a new one all the other become more rare. Should they never rebalance maps? Or does the arbetrary line get drawn somewhere between these points?
@DaSonic said:
Syringes are also low skill high reward. All it does is require you to press a button and you get a health state. Unless you do it mid chase the killer doesn't have enough time to catch up and even if you are bad at looping a basic few runs around shack or something should give you enough time to get the health state. Also, you absolutely need map pressure to tunnel lol. If you just throw someone on the hook and wait just outside the camp range to go for them again, the other Survivors can just easily push through gens. Tunneling is a pretty risky strategy because if done wrong you constantly have 3 people work at gens uncontested.
I mean, syringes are low skill, but outside of chase do you know what is also low skill? Holding M1 on a survivor for 16 seconds. I do agree that it can save time to use a syringe if you don't tunnel, but it takes as little skill as healing outright, which is literally holding a button and hitting some skillchecks. But when you get tunneled you still need to not get hit in order for it to work. I honestly don't understand this argument at all.
Besides, you are completely overlooking the fact that Killer perks exist. People that tunnel usually bring a plethora of gen slowdown perks like dead man's switch, grim embrace, corrupt, deadlock, pain res, surge, heck even thrilling tremors if you wanna get fancy. These perks literally take the job of having to apply some map pressure by just passively slowing the game down, or pushing survivors in a certain direction in corrupt's case. It requires no input from the Killer besides pain res (which is probably one of the worst tunnel perks anyways since it requires you to hook different people, and at that point you aren't tunneling anymore, you are splitting hooks) and applies map pressure by itself.Not really. Tunneling effeciently needs you to be able to split pressure on a whim, while also pressuring objectives. Easiest is just hooking anyone you see, maybe keep hookstages in mind if you see two people at the same time. And what do you even mean by "cheapest"?
Okay, are we talking about the same tunneling? When you tunnel, you don't split pressure pretty much at all, unless the person that is being tunnelled is currently on the hook in which case you would usually try to disturb survivors from completing generators. Tunneling is specifically used because you DON'T need to split pressure or objectives, rather hyperfixating on making the game a 1v3 in the shortest amount of time.
Also, by "cheapest" I mean, once again, that it is low skill high reward. You slap on gen slowdown, load into the match, find the mikaela, down her, hook her, go to some gens to get survivors of of them if your perks didn't do that by themselves until she is unhooked, then return to down her again, presumably whilst she only has one health state since she just got unhooked, rinse and repeat. In most cases the survivor is dead and only a couple generators have been completed in that time, and with 2 gens or more remaining, the game is already decided unless you mess up badly (which by the way, should mean that you lose). Again, in a 1v3 once you have hooked one more person, all you need to do is find one other survivor and chase them. Now you have 1 survivor on hook, 1 survivor being chased 1 survivor having to go for the rescue. 0 generator progress. This is why forcing a 1v3 fundamentally breaks the game and why tunneling (from the start of the game) needs to be addressed.Edit: Mentioning @VibranToucan because I forgot to in the post
I mean, syringes are low skill, but outside of chase do you know what is also low skill? Holding M1 on a survivor for 16 seconds. I do agree that it can save time to use a syringe if you don't tunnel, but it takes as little skill as healing outright, which is literally holding a button and hitting some skillchecks.
Thats why I said low skill, high reward. Even ignoring you can use the medkit normally between popping a syringe, saving 16 seconds for each Survior or 32 second total is huge. There are definintely tons of games where the results would have been completely different if the last gens popped 32 seconds earlier/later.
But when you get tunneled you still need to not get hit in order for it to work. I honestly don't understand this argument at all.
If Survivors go down consistently in less than 16 seconds, that is a skill issue on their part, and the killer would very likely have won without tunneling. And if you don't get for 16 seconds off the hook its a free health state.
Besides, you are completely overlooking the fact that Killer perks exist. People that tunnel usually bring a plethora of gen slowdown perks like dead man's switch, grim embrace, corrupt, deadlock, pain res, surge, heck even thrilling tremors if you wanna get fancy. These perks literally take the job of having to apply some map pressure by just passively slowing the game down, or pushing survivors in a certain direction in corrupt's case. It requires no input from the Killer besides pain res (which is probably one of the worst tunnel perks anyways since it requires you to hook different people, and at that point you aren't tunneling anymore, you are splitting hooks) and applies map pressure by itself.
Dead Man's Switch requires you to let go off the gen, which in your view of tunneling the killer doesnt do. Grim Embrace requires different hooks to be remotely good. Corrupt only blocks some gens, meaning Survivor can just do the others and deactivates once you get a down. Surge requires the person to take chase to the gens being done. Thrilling Tremors only blocks gens nobody is working on. Deadlock and Pain Res are the only ones where you get free pressure without doing anything while tunneling. And by the same logic, Survivors have perks and items. Deja Vu, Hyperfocus, Brand New Parts, etc…
Okay, are we talking about the same tunneling? When you tunnel, you don't split pressure pretty much at all, unless the person that is being tunnelled is currently on the hook in which case you would usually try to disturb survivors from completing generators. Tunneling is specifically used because you DON'T need to split pressure or objectives, rather hyperfixating on making the game a 1v3 in the shortest amount of time.
You need to effeciently pressure objectives while the Survivor is on the hook, while also being in the position to return in time before they sneak off. Don't pressure enough and the team pushes through gens before the tunnel is done, too much and you lose your tunnel target.
Also, by "cheapest" I mean, once again, that it is low skill high reward.
If cheap means "low skill high reward", then anything is cheap. Lets talk about window vaults. By vaulting one you get distance on the killer for the price of holding shift and pressing a spacebar. Slap on Finesse to make the vault save and Lithe to get distance to use it on the next vault. Also it is not technically impossible to win as Survivor without using vaults? So is vaulting a cheap tactic that needs to be addressed?
You slap on gen slowdown, load into the match, find the mikaela, down her, hook her, go to some gens to get survivors of of them if your perks didn't do that by themselves until she is unhooked, then return to down her again, presumably whilst she only has one health state since she just got unhooked, rinse and repeat.
The average killer cannot teleport back to the hook. If you leave to pressure gens and the Survivors play it well, odds are they are gone by the time you return to the hook. And if you don't pressure gens you don't pressure gens. Unless you play Blight or Kaneki pressuring Gens and unhooks at the same time is far from easy.
Also if tunneling is as OP, easy and common as y'all are saying it must have a massive effect on the killrate and just removing it would drop it massively. Even in your view, it would argue for massive killer buffs along with anti-tunnel changes, not just anti-tunnel changes.
-
@DaSonic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3987423#Comment_3987423
why do you get to decide that the line of "impactful enough to be worth removing", is drawn at exactly that spot?
BHVR is addressing tunneling soon, not syringes, so why don't you just ask them? It seems to be high enough on their priority list to warrant addressing. Whether or not any changes they make will have a meaningful impact is to be seen. And there are different reasons as to why they are probably addressing it. To name a few:
- Tunneling is a low-skill high-reward strategy. You barely need to know anything about how the game works to do it. Compare it for example with spreading map pressure, probably what I would advocate for the most. Spreading map pressure needs fairly extensive knowledge of the maps, the survivors and potentially their perks if you pick up on them, how survivors tend to spread themselves out, how your killer interacts with the map. Probably a few more things too that I can't think of the top of my head. That takes a long time to learn and lots of experience. In comparison, for tunneling you need to know: What the survivor you are tunneling looks like, knowing that anti-tunnel perks exist and maybe playing around them, or straight up ignoring them for a marginal time loss, and maybe how your killer power can help you in tunneling. A pretty low bar to set, for a potentially high reward.
- It is boring. There is barely any interactivity happening, and it essentially removes any meaningful gameplay for one player. You just get chased, eventually go down, get unhooked, get chased with one health state, go down, get unhooked, get chased with one health state, go down, die. The most fun one can have is in really close games, where it could really end either way, coming down to the wire. When you tunnel someone out immediately, that rarely ever happens. The game has been forcibly made a 1v3, and they are at one maybe two generators left, there is pretty much no way that is gonna happen, unless you mess up badly (in which case you should lose).
- It actively hinders killers from getting buffed. Since tunneling is included in the killrate and artificially boosts it, BHVR is less likely to buff killers to get their intended killrate back in line, should it be out of line without it.
Four syringes have a huge impact on a game, I would say easily higher impact than tunneling.
Well, when you resort to tunneling you usually don't have to worry about four syringes, just the one from the person you are tunneling. As for flashlights you might have to waste a couple of seconds checking your surroundings, maybe getting a hit by finding a survivor waiting for a flashlight save (which by the way, stopped them from repairing a generator, hence slowing the game down). The impact simply cannot be compared, no matter how overpowered you make syringes or flashlights sound.
"I said tunneling is a low-skill strategy to be used and abused for cheap wins." Again, you could say the same about anything.
You really can't. If you compare strategies with each other, tunneling is the easiest and cheapest one to do.
- Syringes are also low skill high reward. All it does is require you to press a button and you get a health state. Unless you do it mid chase the killer doesn't have enough time to catch up and even if you are bad at looping a basic few runs around shack or something should give you enough time to get the health state. Also, you absolutely need map pressure to tunnel lol. If you just throw someone on the hook and wait just outside the camp range to go for them again, the other Survivors can just easily push through gens. Tunneling is a pretty risky strategy because if done wrong you constantly have 3 people work at gens uncontested.
- Okay, but killers tunnel because they find losing boring. And if you just nerf tunneling all it does it create less fun games for killers.
- You could say that about anything. If we nerfs Invocations or No Mither we could buff broken, but that doesn't mean Invocations should be nerfed. If there are to be buffs for nerfing tunneling, they should come along with the tunnel nerfs, not be alluded too.
Well, when you resort to tunneling you usually don't have to worry about four syringes, just the one from the person you are tunneling. As for flashlights you might have to waste a couple of seconds checking your surroundings, maybe getting a hit by finding a survivor waiting for a flashlight save (which by the way, stopped them from repairing a generator, hence slowing the game down). The impact simply cannot be compared, no matter how overpowered you make syringes or flashlights sound.
I mean unless you hit of the hook, which you usually only can when you give up all gen pressure and are likely going to lose anyway or if the Survivors missplay, and even then gives the unhooked Survivor a huge distance boost, the unhooker can also pop a syringe on who they just unhooked. And once you tunneled someone out the game isn't over. Doing 1.5 gens with three people is entirely feasible. Also, when I brought up Flashlights it was about your point that tunneling shifts how you approach how you have to approach a match, not the impact on the results of the match.
You really can't. If you compare strategies with each other, tunneling is the easiest and cheapest one to do.
Not really. Tunneling effeciently needs you to be able to split pressure on a whim, while also pressuring objectives. Easiest is just hooking anyone you see, maybe keep hookstages in mind if you see two people at the same time. And what do you even mean by "cheapest"?
@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3987423#Comment_3987423
So because other things make you feel like crap that's a reason to perpetuate things that make other people feel like crap?
And yeah, I do think high-skill 4-mans on comms with coordinated perks and items are unfair to the game's structure. If you come up against that and if the survivors are being trolls with body blocks and endless saves then I think dirty tactics are valid, cause those are dirty tactics too. The power balance is totally thrown off in those cases. But that's not the norm, and approaching hapless soloqers or goofy, playful partys with that same viscious approach is crappy.
So because other things make you feel like crap that's a reason to perpetuate things that make other people feel like crap?
No, it means exactly what I said it means in my previous comment. You can't appease everyone. If we tried to do that we'd be playing a completely different game. I hate Oni. But that doesn't mean I think Oni should get nerfed to Skull Merchant levels. "I don't like X" is not a good reason to want it removed from the game, especially without compensation.
And yeah, I do think high-skill 4-mans on comms with coordinated perks and items are unfair to the game's structure. If you come up against that and if the survivors are being trolls with body blocks and endless saves then I think dirty tactics are valid, cause those are dirty tactics too. The power balance is totally thrown off in those cases. But that's not the norm, and approaching hapless soloqers or goofy, playful partys with that same viscious approach is crappy.
Weird how that only comes up now. So what nerf to SWF do you propose come to the game along with the nerf to tunneling?
-
@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3987386#Comment_3987386
The game gives you items in the bloodweb and in chests. It says, "Here, use this." Show me where the game says to tunnel. Is it in the tutorial? The tips on the loading screen? I must have missed it.
Tunneling makes people feel like crap, especially early-game, immediate tunneling. It's rare that I come across a 4-man that leaves me feeling helpless as killer. But as survivor, that feeling is ordinary. There's no way for me (in soloq) to torment killers the way they torment me when they shove me out of a match. I've never had a streak of killer games that made me feel terrible. But I've had whole weeks of survivor that have.
It comes down to what you care about: winning or fun. I'm not interested in winning so I can inflate some stats nobody cares about anyway, and at the expense of making everyone else miserable. I want to have a fun match, and that involves having my opponents be able to perform as well. I'm not trying to immediately cripple them. I want the game to feel even and fair regardless of what role I'm playing. I want it to be close. I want everyone's scores to be decent. If I'm the killer in a match that's rapidly snowballing two minutes in and I see hope is disappearing for the other side then I'll often pull back and let them heal and reorientate themselves. Because I'm trying to play a match, not just win and leave. What's even the point of that?
The game gives you items in the bloodweb and in chests. It says, "Here, use this." Show me where the game says to tunnel. Is it in the tutorial? The tips on the loading screen? I must have missed it.
Are you saying that something isn't intended because the game doesn't explicitly advertise it? By that logic using voice calls in SFW is also on the same level, I never saw the game tell me "Use discord to chat with your friends while you play with them."
Tunneling makes people feel like crap, especially early-game, immediate tunneling. It's rare that I come across a 4-man that leaves me feeling helpless as killer. But as survivor, that feeling is ordinary. There's no way for me (in soloq) to torment killers the way they torment me when they shove me out of a match. I've never had a streak of killer games that made me feel terrible. But I've had whole weeks of survivor that have.
I mean there are plenty of things that make me feel like crap when playing Survivor or Killer, but that doesn't mean the other side is a bad person for it or that it should be nerfed to the ground.
It comes down to what you care about: winning or fun. I'm not interested in winning so I can inflate some stats nobody cares about anyway, and at the expense of making everyone else miserable. I want to have a fun match, and that involves having my opponents be able to perform as well. I'm not trying to immediately cripple them. I want the game to feel even and fair regardless of what role I'm playing. I want it to be close. I want everyone's scores to be decent. If I'm the killer in a match that's rapidly snowballing two minutes in and I see hope is disappearing for the other side then I'll often pull back and let them heal and reorientate themselves. Because I'm trying to play a match, not just win and leave. What's even the point of that?
Most people find winning fun. I am sorry, but yeah if Survivors swarm the slug for a pallet save against my Bubba and hand me a 4 man slug, I am not going to say no. Like if people didn't think winning was fun, then we wouldn't have this problem in the first place. Cause people play games to have fun.
@DaSonic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3987386#Comment_3987386
"Tunneling is not an exploit. Items and tactics are both parts of the games design."
Yes, and like you just separated them yourself we were talking about gameplay tactics, not items. Tunneling and Items are nowhere near the same ballpark of impact they have on the match, which is another reason why they shouldn't be compared. A rogue syringe or killer add-on might have a viable impact of the outcome of the match, tunneling almost definitely always has an impact on the match. Forcing a 1v3 is probably one of if not the biggest impact you can have on a match, pretty much deciding the match right there if atleast like 2 generators are still remaining at that time in most games. It literally shifts how survivors have to approach the entire match.
"Like am I supposed to be like "Damn, this game is wineable but I am already over the average winrate so I should just give up?" Like no, people generally play to win, regardless of how much they are supposed to."
No, I never said that you shouldn't try to win. I said tunneling is a low-skill strategy to be used and abused for cheap wins. I have honestly no idea where you got that from. Again, I could also bring up that it is just straight up boring to verse ontop of everything else, but "Your fun isn't my responsibility", so I will just let that go for now.https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3987389#Comment_3987389
This survivor community is sometimes so entitled, (or people like u are just ready to throw out, “you can’t even play this game no macro/no skill) I just don’t care about weaker lobbies anymore.
I’ve just been a super active player since release. I’m just really careful with some of the people here on the forums. There are a ton of “forum mains.”
The last person who tried to tell me about “cheap wins,” “low skill,” and “git gud, you just have to improve” had 5k posts on the forum but hadn’t even played 100 hours in DBD since 2021. I rack that up in two weeks easy.
Sorry, but when someone plays so little (and not even on Killer), it’s hard for me to take any of their “advice” seriously. There are people (like me) who play this game competitively, and tunneling/slugging and all that stuff is just part of it.
I mean, complaining about entitlement whilst the first three paragraphs of that same post were pretty much just entitlement too is just funny.
It’s just funny how it always goes in the direction of: “You don’t have macro and can’t play/win any other way.”
Again, I never said that you don't have macro. Heck, I said the opposite stating that you probably have good macro with your amount of hours. Like I said in the post before, I am talking about the average Killer, that hinders himself with tunneling, artificially boosting himself to verse opponents his skillset can't handle, which then causes him to tunnel more and use even more crutches to win.
I honestly don't give a damn about my kill rate, but I've got my principles.
Then why did you bring it up? That wasn't me.
Yes, and like you just separated them yourself we were talking about gameplay tactics, not items. Tunneling and Items are nowhere near the same ballpark of impact they have on the match, which is another reason why they shouldn't be compared. A rogue syringe or killer add-on might have a viable impact of the outcome of the match, tunneling almost definitely always has an impact on the match. Forcing a 1v3 is probably one of if not the biggest impact you can have on a match, pretty much deciding the match right there if atleast like 2 generators are still remaining at that time in most games. It literally shifts how survivors have to approach the entire match.
Four syringes have a huge impact on a game, I would say easily higher impact than tunneling. Even if tunneling was objectively more impactful, why do you get to decide that the line of "impactful enough to be worth removing", is drawn at exactly that spot? Also, items definitely shift how killers have to approach the match. If a Survivor has a medkit, hitting them and then dropping chase is less impactful. If Survivors have flashlights, you need to be much more worry about your surroundings. You are just finding any difference and then for no real reason saying "this is the line that matters most"
"I said tunneling is a low-skill strategy to be used and abused for cheap wins."
Again, you could say the same about anything.
-
@DaSonic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3987279#Comment_3987279
There's a couple things here that simply can't be compared.
Tunneling is a playstyle, items are not. At best, you could compare survivor items with killer add-ons, in which case I could ask you the exact same thing as you did with items. Also, items and add-ons don't change the core gameplay loop in a way that streamlines and deprecates gameplay as much as tunneling does.
Tunneling is a "cheap" tactic because it requires such low skill to get such a high reward. Like I said in earlier posts, you don't need to learn any macro-skills in order to win games with tunneling. You need to know what the person you tunnel looks like, and the bloodlust timers."Killers losing games isn't particularly fun either." Again, same thing could be said for survivors. Besides, just because you don't tunnel, doesn't mean that you will lose, far from it infact, statistically. The game still has a 60% Killrate after all, and even higher for alot of Killer Mains, but that is not the topic of this thread anyways.
Tunneling is a playstyle, items are not. At best, you could compare survivor items with killer add-ons, in which case I could ask you the exact same thing as you did with items.
Why can't I compare playstyles to items? They are both things you can relatively easily try to use for an advantage. The same arguments can apply. You are just using a seemingly arbetrary line to draw a distinction.
Also, items and add-ons don't change the core gameplay loop in a way that streamlines and deprecates gameplay as much as tunneling does.
They absolutely do. Tunneling is the same gameplay loop. Get chased, get downed, get hooked, meanwhile the other Survivors do gens. Items meanwhile. Syringe and Styptic essentially give Survivors a free health state for free, Flashlights and Flashbangs add a whole new element in the form of saves even without pallets, Fog Vials add on demand LOS obstruction. Items definitely affect the gameplay loop more than tunneling.
"Killers losing games isn't particularly fun either." Again, same thing could be said for survivors. Besides, just because you don't tunnel, doesn't mean that you will lose, far from it infact, statistically. The game still has a 60% Killrate after all, and even higher for alot of Killer Mains, but that is not the topic of this thread anyways.
Yeah that was my point. Losing isn't fun for either side. So we shouldn't just suddenly put in huge balance changes against slugging/tunneling unless we know how to counter ramifications. Killers have a 60% killrate overall, tunneling included. Also, I am kind of confused on this point. Yeah, I won't lose every game without tunneling, so? Like am I supposed to be like "Damn, this game is wineable but I am already over the average winrate so I should just give up?" Like no, people generally play to win, regardless of how much they are supposed to.
@cogsturning said:
Tunneling is a choice and a tactic. Items are part of the game's design. They're not comparable.
I win some games, lose others. I never tunnel, and actively avoid recently uhooked survivors. I'm playing the game as I believe it was intended to be played, and I have the exact 60% kill rate the game shoots for.
Tunneling is a choice and a tactic. Items are part of the game's design. They're not comparable.
Tactics and hook stages are also part of the games design? Like there is no law that would stop the devs from putting in something like "Oh, once you get 12 hooks all Survivors die and never before that." Tunneling is not an exploit. Items and tactics are both parts of the games design.
I win some games, lose others. I never tunnel, and actively avoid recently uhooked survivors. I'm playing the game as I believe it was intended to be played, and I have the exact 60% kill rate the game shoots for.
My killrate on Skull Merchant is 77% and my Killrate on Dracula is 52%. That doesn't mean Skull Merchant is S Tier or that Dracula is mid. Self reported data from a few individuals doesn't say much about the general balance of a game of millionsm, especially if we have better data.
Last time it was reported the escape rate data was at roughly 40% overall and easily over 40% at high MMR (https://www.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/1k58ik7/stats_january_march_2025/) this data of course includes people who tunnel.
-
@DaSonic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3987168#Comment_3987168
That's just shifting the blame again.
People will always do whatever is easiest and takes the least brain-power to do. Facecamping Bubba would fall into that exact same ballpark, very easy to do, very hard to counter (if you don't just give up on the camped person entirely and immediately). Same thing with tunneling. Why learn how to create pressure and get a good sense for macro-play when you can just make the game a 3v1 from the start because the game doesn't punish you for it and have free pressure like that instead?
Killers that tunnel basically limit themselves and stop themselves from getting better at the game in exchange for some cheap wins. And it's a vicious cycle too. Once their MMR starts rising from all the undeserved wins they get faced with better survivors that know how to punish tunnelling more effectively (be it, by just being better loopers in general or whatever), they will need to start using all of the best tools in their kit to stay competitive in their inflated MMR, which will then reside in even more tunneling or cheap tactics for cheap wins.
That's also completely disregarding how the person being tunneled feels about it, which is another pain-point entirely. But since the overarching mentality that's been plaguing this game has been "I am not responsible for your fun" (For both sides by the way), I doubt that's gonna change anytime soon.Killers that tunnel basically limit themselves and stop themselves from getting better at the game in exchange for some cheap wins. And it's a vicious cycle too. Once their MMR starts rising from all the undeserved wins they get faced with better survivors that know how to punish tunnelling more effectively (be it, by just being better loopers in general or whatever), they will need to start using all of the best tools in their kit to stay competitive in their inflated MMR, which will then reside in even more tunneling or cheap tactics for cheap wins.
Why is tunneling the only "cheap" tactic? It's a tactic you can use that helps you win. You could say the same if anything else. "Oh survivors who bring medkits/toolboxes artificially inflate their MMR and then they'll go against stronger killers they need to rely on items more and more for more cheap escapes. Survivors hurt themselves by bringing items." Like no, tunneling isn't some oversight exploit that breaks the game. It is a part of the game that you can use if you'd like and know how to and that can help you.
That's also completely disregarding how the person being tunneled feels about it, which is another pain-point entirely. But since the overarching mentality that's been plaguing this game has been "I am not responsible for your fun" (For both sides by the way), I doubt that's gonna change anytime soon.
Killers losing games isn't particularly fun either. I personally hate chemical trap and syringes, but that doesn't mean Survivors are bad for using them.
-
Currently 2v8 is *5 which means 400% more BP. Meaning if you play 1v4 and everbody brings a party streamer you get more BP than from playing 2v8 even with this "huge" boost.
-
@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3982186#Comment_3982186
It really makes you question what does it even take for your voice and feedback to be heard.
Probably spending less money on the game. No reason for a company to do something if it doesn't affect profits.
-
This is easily the worst the game has been in 2+ years. Not neccesarily balance or bugs by themself, tho that is not going great, but the decisions the devs recently have been making. I can't remember the last time BHVR made an apology to their community, and now we got two in a week. I have neither bought TWD nor any cells recently and will continue to avoid spending money on this game until things get better.
-
She can't scan anyone while they aren't moving. This has been the case for like 2 years at this point.
Even as someone who likes scan line skull merchant, I think her being able to scan Survivors on gens would be unhealthy.
-
@jedimaster505 said:
It isn't broken, you need to adjust your playstyle to deal with Vigil strats.
Firstly, in the "worst case scenario", 4 vigils means 4 less perks in the trial that increase gen speed, increase healing speed, provide crucial info on killer, or that help with altruistic plays. This also rarely actually happens because Vigil is a good perk but not as strong as people are claiming. I would much rather run other perks as a survivor main. I used to use Sprint Burst and Fixated a lot and threw in Vigil sometimes, but I've moved on from that build because though it is decent, it is somewhat 1-dimensional.
Exhausted: in order to get really fast exhaustion recovery, survivors must group up closely since the Vigil effective range is only 8 meters. this gives you an advantage since split pressure is the most efficient way to complete the main objective. So even if all the survivors stay close to one another to abuse the Vigil effect, they're now making themselves easy targets for a snowball and aren't getting gens done, or if they are teaming up on a gen, their gen efficiency is greatly reduced. I've now addressed the "strongest" case argument for Vigil being "OP" due to stacking exhaustion, and now it is debunked.
Blindness/Oblivious: killers have tons of aura reading ability, so survivors having it too is fair, since survivor stealth has been heavily nerfed. How do you think survivor's feel when there are almost no counter to killers' wall hack builds? The counter to this is very easy, just don't solely rely on perks and playstyles which induce Blindness/Oblivious, just as survivors must not solely rely on remaining hidden the entire trial. Again, this is only in the rare case you have a 4-Vigil team. Since this extreme case rarely happens in practice, most matches still benefit from Blindness/Oblivious killer strategies.
If you're just complaining about 1 player in a match that takes advantage of a good synergy between Fixated, Sprint Burst and Vigil, then no nerf is warranted. There are plenty of ways to play around this playstyle. That player is dedicating 3 full perk slots to player movement, meaning they don't get increased gen speed perks, increased healing speed perks, killer info perks, and altruistic perks. They're strong in one department, and weak in most others. Identify the player's build early on and adjust accordingly.
Vigil does help with healing by counter Haemorrhage, Mangled and Broken. It also helps with altrusistic plays, you can recover nearby Survivors from effects faster. Most importantly it helps a ton with lasting longer in chase, which is free gen time for teammates.
First of all, 66% more charges per second is already really strong, you don't need to stack it. The range is also 16 meters, not 8. This easily allows people to recover by not being in danger range, especially on multistory maps. Also while teaming up on gens early on is bad, doing it with 2 or less gens remaining is actually pretty strong.
And no, Survivors getting the same aura as killers is not fair. Survivors have 16 total perk slots, killers have 4.O ne Survivor perk should not have the same capabilities as one killer perk.
-
@Emeal said:
Can we get like 6 seconds to actually try the content out first`?
The yellow bottles didnt change much from PTB. I also tried Clown on live. Yellow Bottle spam was the way to go. Trying to use purples only slowed me down.
-
A while ago I talked with someone who still genuinely believed her power exposed. People that didn't know scan lines turned white when you were unscannable. People get double tapped all the time, when even a surface understanding of her power should be able to always prevent that.
You can't balance something if people refuse to understand it. It's like trying to balance Huntress in a world where Survivors refuse to even try breaking line of sight.
-
@Aphy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3970476#Comment_3970476
Seems logical doesn't it. When I mean instantly appears next to killer I literally mean that. As soon as third person fully dies, killer is no where near killershack and it gets closed, thats instant. As I said, I can see the difference from way back when to now. Don't be salty by my experiences. I get its hard for kids to play killer but thats why skill and strategy are important. Not handouts for killer making it easier for them.
I just described how the game mechanics work. Hatch has predetermined locations and randomly picks one at the beginning of the match. It doesn't decide to spawn near the killer. Here is some evidence, with a method that can allow you to find hatch before it actually appears:
https://youtu.be/5lEGhINzd18?si=bIw4Bhxs1mBG4MLo
-
Sorry, but no. Who is this supposed to appeal to? Like yeah, people who played the game for 9 years straight and are very nostalgic, but by now that is a very small part of the playerbase.
Do you know how these matches would go? "Oh the Survivor ran an infinite loop for 20 seconds and due to Brand New Parts all gens are done now." "Oh the hillbilly brought a red mori and killed me 10 seconds into the match."
I am sorry, but old mechanics would not work with current dbd. Iridescent items were balanced by their rarity. That is not the case anymore with the huge increases in BP. A lot of the fun came from the fact that people didn't know what they were doing. DBD has become to optimised for something like this.
-
@Aphy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3970432#Comment_3970432
No my killer main is Michael. I honestly feel killer is too easy. I don't even go for any kills if I'm having fun jump scaring everyone one. If the survs don't know how to communicate or are toxic then I kill them but its not a challenge. It WAS a challenge back in the day. I used to run matches that would last until the timer ran out. That's too long for little kids but it was sure fun and involved skill and strategy. Something these kids now don't know how to use. I explained a lot of what I and my friends were discussing about the old days. As far as the hatch difference, It was very challenging for either party to find hatch in the old days. Now its pretty instant to find, there's a pattern and usually spawns at killer shack without any offerings or right next to killer 9/10 times. Ive been playing since 2017 so its not hard to see the difference.
What do you mean hatch spawns right next to the killer? Hatch location is predetermined from the beginning of the match. It doesn't appear for the killer magically. Odds are better for the killer to find it, but that is mainly because A) the Survivor has to hide and B) the Killer has a higher movement speed. Nothing that wasn't the case back then.
-
@ImWinston said:
- In the phone game, perks were ALWAYS visible and everyone was happy and chill. I don't understand why it shouldn't be in the main game. It's just an excuse to make "solo q" even weaker. How helpful would it be to know that one of your teammates has "unbreakable"? if the problem is "no mither", change this damn perk!🤣
Mobile games are way more casual. People don't care about optimal play or winning or losing as much with those.
-
@Ikalx said:
Healing is pretty strong right now, but I feel like it's a soft attempt to combat tunnelling etc. If people can heal quickly they should have more of a chance to escape.
That being said, the amount of games I've played where absolutely no one brings a healing perk is astonishing. It's crazy that healing is so buffed and so many survivors aren't using the perks.
Idk. Yeah I guess killers like Nemesis or Skull Merchant can't tunnel as easily off the hook. But for Killers like Blight or Ghoul, unless you literally go all in on healing, odds are they are back intime to interrupt the heal if they really want to tunnel.
-
@rvzrvzrvz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3967676#Comment_3967676
So now we are pretending tunneling is a rare thing ? this forum it's something man, i should go and screenshots my games from just yesterday literally Kaneki and Blight simulator for 20 games straight, I know you're all playing in that very low MMR but still..
Alright, then lets look at someone high MMR. Here is the last time I saw Otzdarva play Survivor on stream:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2516812864 This was 2 days ago. He only did 4 Surivor games, 2 at the beginning, 2 at the end.
Survivor Game 1: Myers, no tunneling.Survivor Game 2: Demogorgon, no tunneling.
A bunch of killer games inbetween.
Survivor Game 3: Bubba, no tunneling.
Survivor Game 4: Vecna, no tunneling.
Yes, it is a small sample size, but it is better than going just off memories.
Everytime I see data actually being recorded it does not back claims of "Hard Tunneling Blight every game."
-
I don't get why people are upset.
The reality is: You never owned these characters. For as long as I can remember, the EULA has stated "Virtual Goods are licensed to you, not sold. You do not own the Virtual Goods(...)" This is not Behaviour telling you don't own these characters from now on. This is them making something you should already know easier to understand. It is bringing the language used in-game in line with legal reality. It is making things more clear, which is good.
Some people might ask "But why now?" Well, first of all this is a good change. Earlier would have been great, but better late than never. But I also have my own theory. Remember the Ghoul release? There was a bug that everyone got a skin for free. And when it got taken away a lot of people were really upset they lost a cosmetic the game said theyy "owned." It is likely to help mitigate future issues like that.
So yeah, this is a great change. BHVR is being transparent and honest about the power they hold.
-
You have never owned these characters.
The EULA has stated for as far as I remember:
"Virtual Goods are licensed to you, not sold. You do not own the Virtual Goods, and you acknowledge and agree that all Virtual Goods represent a limited, personal, nonexclusive, non-transferable, non-assignable and fully revocable license to use the Virtual Goods, for your individual, non-commercial, entertainment purposes only. You have no right, title, interest, or ownership in or to any Virtual Goods. We may terminate your license at any time and at our sole discretion."
This change is just a better representation of how things are, how things always have been. I think companies being transparent with the power they hold is a good thing.
-
@rvzrvzrvz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3967665#Comment_3967665
That's cope tunneling has been meta for years, if you play to win you either tunnel one or spread hooks between 2 survivors, anything else and you're just gimping yourself for no reason. Kaneki is by far the most popular killer I vs him every 2 or 3 games
While the devs are rare with official data, unofficial community data places his pickrate at around 6% to 7%. Looking back at my 5 past Survivor games I got Blight, Dredge, Legion, Cenobite, Chucky. None of them tunelled from what I remember. I know its a year old, but back when *Forgotten Ruins (accidentally wrote Shattered Square in the first version, my apologies) released I tried bringing the map offering and recorded my data. 2 out of these 16 Survivor games had the killer tunneling.
(My definition of tunneling: "The killer intentionally and intensely focusing on one Survivor until they are dead. This does not count the Survivor giving up, or becoming the easiest target by their own actions i.e. trying to take a hit despite having the most hook stages.")
-
With all due respect, I don't think this a realistic representation of the game. This doesn't match my experience at all. The last time I got a hard tunneling killer was easily more than 25 games ago. I see Kaneki less than 1 in 10 matches. I don't remember ever going against the Legion build you mentioned. And as far as I remember I had the killer be toxic once over my past 20 games.
I even did the math behind the maths claim. There are a total of 42 possible maps, you named 5. Even if we ignore the map repeat prevention for simplicity (if it was included this would actually lower the probability even further) without map offerings playing 9 out of 10 games on these 5 is statistically borderline impossible. I put the numbers in multiple binomical distrubution calculator and even for 7/10 games the odds are 0.003%. For 8/10 and 9/10 it was so low that they just spit out 0.
-
I don't get why the dog actually has to path back to you. Just make the Cooldown depend on the distance and the have the dog teleport when you use your power.
-
@SoGo said:
If I got it right, the main building of the Rallen Refuge map is the only part that will get to the live version.
The main building is apparently supposed to spawn as a tile on all of Withered Isle maps.
The Devs on twitter recently said it was a full on map. But yeah, communication has been weird about this.
-
@Coffee2Go said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3965965#Comment_3965965
No I want him to keep his same abilities but have an extra one which will be a hybrid knight, unknown, doctor version but not the same and way slower and only for jumpscare, info, mobility, map control.
After all every killer has been getting a rework so why not michael the og killer that evolved the current mechanic for other killers.
Because it doesn't match his appearence in the movies at all, would overcomplicate him, make him less unique, and changes his playstyle into going for Knight-esque Sandwiches
-
So you want to completely change how a character with a solid playerbase works, and turn him into a knock off Knight? That seems like a bad idea.
-
The issue with that would be that SFWs could get free disconnects by just managing who DCs first.
-
I meant to put this in PTB Feedback, can I move it or do I have to repost it there?
-
@jedimaster505 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3959448#Comment_3959448
I don't see what point you're trying to make. The average escape rate for solos and Swf overall is in the low 40s.
I told you my point in my original reply but you focused in on the 48% escape rate.
Soloqueue and SWF will always have a divide, the idea that the game should be balanced around 4 soloqueues who can't communicate, make constant mistakes and often don't even bring a full load out, having a 50% escape rate makes no sense. In addition to making no thematic sense, competetive games like dbd should be balanced around people trying to win. Yeah, we should balance for casuals too, but not at the detriment for, not just top level play, but even just high MMR play.
The stats you used it shows that soloqueue having an around 40.4% escape rate and 4 people SWF 48.2% leads to an escape rate of 42%.
Currently if both sides are strong the game is relatively well balanced. We should not change that just because one side is more susceptible to bad play.
-
@jedimaster505 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3959320#Comment_3959320
I don't know where you get 48.9 from as the BHVR stat im referring to is 48.2%, unless BHVR put out new stats recently.
Nightlight is not a reliable source and I don't know where your other numbers come from with respect to high MMR.
You are not arguing the point. Alright let's take your number of 48.2%. is it really that far-fetched that a SWF that tries to win, has a 1.8% higher escape rate than average due to all the examples I gave?
-
The way he can just run behind you, and M1 you if he gets close enough or M2 you if you try to use a pallet or window is stupid. He is also already easily a top 10 killer, he shouldn't get any buffs without compensation nerfs.
-
@jedimaster505 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3959021#Comment_3959021
high MMR 4 stacks have only an average 48 percent escape rate so that's not even true as even the most competent 4 man swfs average below 50. I don't even expect the devs to balance around solo q, but balancing around 50% average escape rate with swf and solos combined, the entire survivor player base, is perfectly sensible
Its 48.9% so more like 49%. And high MMR is the top 10% of the playerbase, so in total 6 million players. If you have 3 strong players and they bring a beginner friend, that's a high MMR match I reckon. I have seen 4 stevegulls in high MMR or people doing invocations or a SWF who thought Legion was boring so they all just didn't mend or a squad that ignored gens and went for blinds and stuns instead, etc… So I think that the average competent high MMR SWF has at least a 1.1% higher escape rate than the average hih MMR SWF.
-
None of the base characters are locked behind achievements. For Wraith and David King you need to finish the tutorial, but the rest are freely available.