TragicSolitude
TragicSolitude
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@MadMoeZel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3436721#Comment_3436721
i wonder if genmat type is only important to the builder in what they harevst and that raiders are rewarded random genmat types for each map?
I'm actually earning multiple GenMat types on many of my Outposts, including a P3 Outpost. It was probably just overlooked when the devs made it so that Outposts could be any GenMat type on the Raid Map to improve matchmaking: I assume that instead of rewarding the GenMat type the Builder chose when a Raider dies, it's rewarding the type of GenMat the Raider was promised. I've been meaning to post a bug report, but in the grand scheme of things I don't consider it that important.
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@Amaroq64 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3435204#Comment_3435204
Are you telling me that if an outpost becomes champion (which gives all 5 types), and then loses champion status, subsequent raiders see it as any random genmat type?
Dang that sucks. I like to theme them like that. :(
Turns out, an Outpost does not have to be a Champion Outpost to show up under multiple GenMat types. So, even before P5 it might be unwise to theme according to GenMat type, as you have no guarantee under which category your base is appearing.
The above Outpost, Waubay, was listed as both Suits and Guards. It was Prestige level 3, so no chance of being a Champion Outpost. Recorded as being P3 here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46C-ie_yXWA
Not a fluke. Also saw it happen with another base.
Steptoe showed up as both Guards and Traps. Documented as being P2 here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Wg9-N8om4U
@MadMoeZel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3435370#Comment_3435370
apologies, for some reason i only saw two pictures. i'm stumped on that one.
I discovered today that an Outpost does not have to be a Champion Outpost to be listed under multiple GenMat types. See above for screencaps.
My guess is that it's done to ensure Outposts get equal treatment. This makes sense, considering how many players have said they don't look at any Outpost that isn't Suits.
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@MadMoeZel said:
"Not sure what you mean by "correct category." I posted screencaps above that show the same Outpost in two different GenMat categories."
the 2 categories were Champion which awards all genmat, and it's normal type "trap" <- the 'correct category' for it when it's not being displayed in champion
The first of the three screencaps shows the Outpost offered as Weapons GenMat, second as Traps GenMat, third as a Champion Outpost. (I apologize if I was unclear, I don't think of "Champion" as a GenMat category since it rewards all five categories.)
It's not the only Outpost I've seen under multiple GenMat categories, just the only one I caught with screencaps. I saw an Outpost today pop up under both Suits and Traps.
@MadMoeZel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3435246#Comment_3435246
thank you for correcting me, i never had this issue so i never encountered the topic.
No problem. I used to see that text daily because I ran passive GenMat Outposts designed to avoid Prestiging, that way they lived forever and only cost 600 Synthite to refill. Can't do that anymore after the update to Prestige, sadly.
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@MadMoeZel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3435204#Comment_3435204
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3435212#Comment_3435212
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3435216#Comment_3435216
i can add clarity to this.
p1-p4 it shows up in the list under the type of genmat related to the outpost.
tragic is talking about when an outpost hits P5 and becomes champion. champion outpost just display the flag symbol because they aware all genmat types. However a P5 outpost can still show up in the regular list outside of the champion listing and will be in it's correct category.
Champion status can't be lost, it just isn't always in the champion slot, but only a p5+ can be there.
a P5 outpost can still show up in the regular list outside of the champion listing and will be in it's correct category.
Not sure what you mean by "correct category." I posted screencaps above that show the same Outpost in two different GenMat categories.
Champion status can't be lost,
If a Champion Outpost fails to meet the Prestige requirements and has to be refilled, then the Prestige points are reset and it loses Champion status. After the update to Prestige it might now be pretty difficult for this to happen, but it happened very easily before the update to Prestige.
See this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHkDaK2J5tI&t=98s Within the game, it says under Prestige Guidelines: "Reset if you fail to Prestige. Champion Outposts that reset lose Champion status until their next level."
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@Amaroq64 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3435204#Comment_3435204
Are you telling me that if an outpost becomes champion (which gives all 5 types), and then loses champion status, subsequent raiders see it as any random genmat type?
Dang that sucks. I like to theme them like that. :(
I don't know about after losing Championship status, but I've seen (on the same day) Championship Outposts listed as Championship and also under multiple GenMat types. It's annoying, actually, because it'll be some Outpost that just doesn't interest me and it's very noticeable that it's popping up in multiple spots.
Edit: These screencaps are from a couple weeks ago, but I saw the same Outpost appearing under multiple GenMat types even today. This particular Outpost was obviously very immediately noticeable when it kept reappearing.
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@Amaroq64 said:
I dunno about other builders, but I take the genmat type into account when thinking about themes/strategies for building an outpost.
It would be nice for players to get a reminder after they've loaded, of what type of genmat they're on. Not just if they forgot, but also for challenge outposts and social outposts, which don't let you see the genmat type from the menu.
The genmat drone's landing pole could have that particular advisor's symbol on it, or maybe it could be on the walkway.
Or maybe give builders a special decal that only displays that advisor's icon on it. (So they can't lie about what type of genmat the map is.)
I don't know about before becoming a Championship Outpost, but definitely after becoming a Championship Outpost an Outpost can be displayed under any of the five GenMat types. So I wouldn't recommend attempting to theme according to GenMat type.
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This is where you go to report bugs that you don't want the general public to know about:
https://support.meetyourmakergame.com/hc/en-us/requests/new
Posting about it on these forums, even if you're not saying how to do it, is going to cause knowledge of the bug to spread.
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@wright402 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3432391#Comment_3432391
I just went to test it out, if the path way is long enough yes, hrv shall automatically re route and go back. But I really doubt to many ppl well make it this long for it to for hrv.
your second part yes I’ve already talk about this, that only would work if the base builder didn’t put a corrosion cube for a short distance from the genmat so hrv has time to re route. So far the minimum requirement for him to re route is 4 blocks on the start of fourth block, if it’s 3 hrv shall just stand on the corrosion cube/last cube n not die, but completely stop working. If it’s 2 blocks or less hrv shall walk back and die.
i also found out that if you grab it within like 25-30% of way hrv is grabbing it, hrv shall walk one block back on the corrosion cubes n automatically re route I tested it a few times and it worked pretty much every time, however if he started walking back the cubes route it takes longer for hrv to re route
so it really doesn’t matter how long you live it they have It this shorter as hrv shall allways die.
but what am asking, what this whole post is about is this intentional, or a type of bug that is intentional that is a exploit.
here’s a video of me testing this all out.
but what am asking, what this whole post is about is this intentional, or a type of bug that is intentional that is a exploit.
So, unless I'm misunderstanding, you're asking a question only the game developers can answer? Because we're just players, we don't know for sure what the devs' intentions are. These are the official forums, but the game developers are not active here. The developers occasionally have Reddit AMAs, so I'd recommend watching out for one of those in the future if you really want to ask them about this.
The best answer I can give going by own observations is this: Second Wave Corrosive Cube paths aren't uncommon, and the devs haven't stated it's a bug as far as I know. Even if the devs do come out and say this behavior is unintentional, they avoid calling things "exploits."
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Sometimes it does get worse the longer we play in co-op, but there are times when it starts out awful the very first raid. If a map is large or has a lot of guards/traps/animated props, then it can suddenly cause huge performance drops and desync which will then continue into all following raids.
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@Seraphor said:
This would just be a funny quirk if Second Wave didn't exist, but it does.
Wait, what's the significance of second wave? Besides seeing traps activate after you died.
It happened in co-op. I mentioned that in the title but forgot to re-emphasize it in my actual post. My bad. Anyway, it activated Second Wave when we weren't expecting it at all and got my friend killed.
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LOOK AT THIS CRAP I AM SO TIRED OF THIS.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PqYEHdPi9kThis is NOT okay. It just suddenly put me in the damn Corrosive Cube.
I am so frustrated.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3428872#Comment_3428872
Not upset, perplexed.
I expect raiders to follow the path at least once, maybe a couple times to get their bearings. But not religiously after multiple deaths when they clearly already know where the genmat is.
Technically it's in my favour because it increases their chance of getting killed.
If I got upset every time a raider played in a way I didn't intend I'd be popping antidepressants like tictacs by now. (Hell, half of the replays on that outpost raiders hop to another path and run the whole thing backwards, negating half of the traps) I just couldn't understand this particular behaviour.
I got curious and tried it myself. Very nifty, I enjoyed it. Because I've read this thread, I didn't play it the way I normally might where I go around scouting first, I just started on the path. And if I for some reason thought I might die, I'd look around and try to remember which building I was at. As someone with terrible spatial awareness who gets lost easily, if I didn't stop and try to make a specific mental note of where I was, I wouldn't have a clue where to go if I had to restart.
I will say it's a bit surprising that after a player dies once they don't start taking stock of which building they're about to enter. Maybe it's tunnel vision, or maybe they're playing the map the way they think it's meant to be played. While scouting around some maps, I've gone in through the exit to discover I just skipped the one-way map, and so I nodded and killed myself and did it again the proper way.
But really I'm willing to bet many Raiders just forget to make a mental note of where they are.
Edit: Or they're worried that at some point they'll need the HRV to show them where to go next, and without him it'll be an actual maze where they'll lose time backtracking to figure out the correct path.
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A lot of people use the Corrosive Cubes for appearances and would toss the lethality aside if they could. MYM needs decorative glowing cubes.
The game also needs color options. It's weird that Builders don't have a color palette they can apply to cubes.
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I think players should be able to have one or two active Outposts, and then one "Legendary" Outpost that's past P10 (too many Builders are discouraged by the fact that after P10 Outposts can only be Social, which is basically like being retired, and if Builders are discouraged then the quality of bases declines). That's it.
The current system is sucking the life out of people. My friend likes to put a lot of effort into building Outposts, but he refuses to activate those anymore because of how few Raiders he's getting. Instead, he slaps together something quick and easy for some passive GenMat and whatever resources might drop from the random kill. I raid a lot, and the vast majority of bases I go to are quick garbage, which suggests very few players feel it's worthwhile to put effort into designing a good Outpost anymore.
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@MadMoeZel said:
PC also, pretty sure it's intended.
it prevents me from using my level 100 boosts to hunt dungeons and carry newer players to the top.
I wasn't able to use my own boost, but I carried my friend to Suits level 50 so his boost would be worth it plus earning Cells to upgrade all his stuff, and while doing that I carried him from Bronze I to Master. The current system doesn't prevent carrying, it just sucks for the player who's not the host. The non-host goes through the dungeon while the friend with no upgrades stands around waiting, coming through when it's cleared out to get the much needed resources, and avoiding dying so they get the full amount of rank. As the non-host I feel like kind of a chump for playing to my full potential and not dying, I don't know why I'm bothering when it makes no difference whatsoever, especially when I'm mostly playing solo and I'd rather run the base with him since we're playing co-op but neither of us want him dying and losing rank. The system sucks, and it'd be nice if the non-host at least got half of the normal XP/rank.
Edit: Also, if this is intentional, then the devs need to make a statement and this information needs to be included in the Tutorial/Game Tips section, because it confuses players and leaves them feeling cheated. Reports of this as a bug show up constantly on the different forums and on Twitter.
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This is true for PlayStation co-op as well.
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I also think doing stuff like community events could help as well; 2x Synthite events or 2x XP events. Maybe even have challenges to complete for cosmetics or something, community challenges as well. The developers really need to find a way to keep players engaged with their game.
Yes. They really need to do some events to get players engaged. They need people to feel rewarded for playing. Challenges to encourage raiding would be good: raid some number of bases to earn a decal (to get Builders raiding), raid some number of large Brutal bases to earn a weapon recolor (to get Raiders raiding more). Gacha games with garbage gameplay retain players by rewarding them with shiny things; people like getting stuff.
Events would also make it look like the game is alive and active. Waiting until late June to release the first major update for such a bare-bones game was a terrible decision. The content drop itself should be a major event, with special Outposts where each player explores and unlocks the new Sector, uncovering lore through gameplay, feeling immersed in the world. But it's probably just going to be like a DbD content drop: here's the new chapter, please buy some cosmetics. This thought makes me sad when MYM has so much potential.
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Completing an Outpost should never reward 0 points towards rank. The devs' decision to punish dying baffles me. BHVR is trying so hard to motivate players to raid—to the point that players are unhappy because they feel forced to raid and so they stop playing altogether—and then BHVR screws up when it comes to keeping the players who are raiding motivated. Pushing too hard against people who don't want to raid, pulling the rewards away from people who do want to raid.
I hope BHVR realizes sooner rather than later that they're sabotaging their own efforts.
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It's now happening to a friend of mine, too. They only just started playing after the most recent update, so none of their Advisors are anywhere near level 100. My friend is also on PS4.
I've now seen this issue posted on the Steam forums as well, so that's three people who've noticed it happening. It's probably happening to players who don't even realize it. This bug is very easy to miss, especially if you have multiple bases running and some are extracting passive GenMat but others aren't.
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@Dreamnomad said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3425274#Comment_3425274
Is there a cap on resources you can have? I'm sitting around mid 30,000's on cells and parts.
I've heard it caps at 100,000 for each resource.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/375137/glad-i-stockpiled-equipment
50% price increasement on grenades isn´t just slightly.
Wanna know who got really unlucky? I had the game open prior to the patch. Read the patch notes with the game still open, but closed it for the patch before reaching the part with the hardware price increasement. *duh
haha the same thing happened to me! My friend had the game open, the patch went live. I was reading the patch notes out loud, and just before I got to the part about the increase in hardware prices he closed the game and started updating it. Had he been patient a second or two longer we could've stockpiled. I mean, I already have a pretty decent stockpile, but I'm almost maxed on Parts so it would've been a perfect time to buy more.
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@shpawen said:
What's so great to make challenging game more casual and less emotionally rewarding? Both things like Cube's exploit and rank penalties worked just fine to bring more tension to the game, more challenge and more fun in the end.
For you. For the majority of players, that was not their experience. Rank felt punishing, not rewarding. And the Second Wave Corrosive Cube bug was frustrating. I've been enjoying the game a lot more today than I was over the weekend thanks to the changes.
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@MadMoeZel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3423039#Comment_3423039
the easiest way to verify this, is to make a map, find the edge of difficulty, make that difference one guard that can't see harvey's path. then when it's on the lower difficulty, go into test mode and exit again to refresh the difficulty meter to confirm, then set that guard to patrol so he can see harvey's path. go into test and exit again to reset difficulty meter and it should have changed based purely on the guard now seeing the path due to patrol.
i think the needed removal of multiple traps has to do with targeting overlap and it not calculating that properly until you do the test
I don't understand. Do Builders have to do that every time they make any changes just to get it to recalculate properly?
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Having to disable each one individually would be fine if we could do it from the console. It's loading into the Outposts which is so annoying.
Activating and deactivating, collecting materials, those things should be doable without loading the Outposts. I don't know how such a big quality of life feature was left out; it makes for a very user unfriendly experience.
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I've never personally seen it change hours and hours later, but the difficulty rating is so broken I don't doubt what you say.
I have a base where the difficulty rating goes up to Dangerous every time I open it. I then delete two specific traps and put those same exact traps back in the same exact spots and it stays Normal. I have to go through that routine every time I open that Outpost in Build mode for any reason.
I've opened a base that's Normal, applied a single Decal, and had that base go up to Dangerous for it. Removing the Decal didn't fix it. I had to remove multiple traps, which is devastating on a Normal base that already had very few traps as it was.
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As an update, I've had this happen with 5, 4, 3, and 2 Outposts active. I have yet to see it happen with only one Outpost active, but for a while I thought it might only happen with 4+ Outposts active and was proven wrong.
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The game needs a tagging system for Outposts. The Builder can choose however many tags suit his Outpost. At the end of every raid, the Raider can also choose tags. The Raid Map will show both groups of tags. The devs would need to create (and publish) strict definitions of the tags and really incentivize honest and sincere usage. Just because an Outpost is a Single Room doesn't mean it's a Killbox, but without a strict definition you'd have some Raiders who die to it once marking it as such and making the tag meaningless.
I wouldn't let Raiders set preferences. Keep the current RNG system. Raiders can choose an Outpost from the map that best suits them, or they can try something different if it looks interesting enough or if they want a different type of challenge.
Fewer rage quits would happen if there were no Rank point deductions. Builders shouldn't have to build killboxes, and Raiders shouldn't have to avoid dying. Each difficulty rating should reward a consistent amount of Rank for stealing the GenMat no matter how many deaths. Players were actually willing to accept the challenge of completing a difficult base back in the beta when Rank wasn't a thing. Humans don't like being punished and while some may see a challenge many will exhibit negative behavior both in trying to avoid punishment and in terms of attitude and anger as a result of feeling punished.
As for possible tags: Maze, Hardcore/Killbox, Multi-path (for reaching the GenMat), Side Quests (for Tombs as separate/side paths), Vertical, Parkour, Dungeon, Arena, Explore, Themed, Artistic, Tutorial, Puzzle, Stealth, Speed Run, Single Room, Outdoors/Open. (Vertical and Parkour are possible on Multi-path Outposts.) If the Builder chooses certain tags (Maze, Multi-path, Puzzle) they should be given the option to suggest not spawning the HRV; maybe the Raider is forced to try without the HRV the first time, maybe they're always only given the option, I dunno, that's something for the devs to decide and I don't feel like overthinking it right now.
I'd suggest the devs make a fourth difficulty category. Brutal encompasses so much, it's kind of ridiculous. The devs also need to tweak the current difficulty ratings, because not only can a base be made Brutal by including nothing but Holocubes, but the ratings are literally broken right now with how an Outpost can be rated more difficult for adding a Decal and then the Builder can't get it back down.
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@Darkyan said:
I didn't experience this, however I'd like to know, have you re-cycled the genmat multiple time without prestige?
You mentioned no getting raiders so I image you might have reached some sort of dumb Refill cap.
Just considering this an option, I really have no other ideas of what could cause it.
I've refilled some of the Outposts multiple times, those stay at Prestige 1. There are also a couple Outposts my friend built which have never been refilled, only Prestiged, and this issue happens with those as well. Because of that, a refill cap seems unlikely, especially since the problem is inconsistent; sometimes I get passive GenMat, but a lot of the time I don't.
The only thing that had changed when it started happening is my Weapons Advisor reaching level 100. The problem occurs whether or not any of the active Outposts are the Weapons GenMat type.
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@MadMoeZel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3419526#Comment_3419526
they call it rank cause thats what they call it in DBD. and once you hit masters, you are RANKED against other masters.
the game may only have you interacting with ai controlled elements but it most definately IS player VS player. a player built the outpost and a player is attacking the outpost. the player set all positions and patrols, the player set every block. if you trying to beat that isn't a competition of minds, i'm not sure what it. i may not be able to immediately react to your raid but i can then respond to your actions after i see the replay and fight back. there is the same ebb and flow as any direct contact pvp game, the contact is just a degree removed.
i disagree with the notion that for it to be PVP it requires both people to be active at the same time. a mail correspondence game of chess is pvp even though both players are taking actions after a period of time has passed and seeing the opponents play and having time to think.
they call it rank cause thats what they call it in DBD.
DbD has "Grades," which are used for the end-of-the-season Bloodpoint reward and nothing else. The matchmaking rank is hidden from the players.
Unless you mean that "Devotion" is a term used in DbD, but I was only using that as an example of a more appropriate word for amassing points towards set goals for rewards while serving the Chimera (without just calling it a battlepass). Something along the lines of "loyalty."
once you hit masters, you are RANKED against other masters.
In Masters, but not before then. And I look at my rank number and it means absolutely nothing. I know it's technically some combination of my raiding performance and the kill rate of my Outposts, but the number doesn't give me an actual idea of where I stand in raiding, nor does it give me an idea of where I stand in building. Even though I may suck at building or raiding, I guess I'm the 175th best Custodian in general. 175 out of what, though? 175 out of 3000 is good. 175 out of 175 is bad. Or hell, Gold IV is actually a higher rank than Gold I, so maybe 175 out of 175 is the best and 1 out of 175 is the worst.
Rank doesn't influence which bases pop up in my list, nor does it influence who raids my own bases. As a Raider, I'm going up against other people's Outposts. It'd make sense for Outposts to have a leaderboard, except the leaderboard would become obsolete each time a base is changed.
a mail correspondence game of chess is pvp even though both players are taking actions after a period of time has passed and seeing the opponents play and having time to think.
The two chess players are still interacting. The amount of time that passes doesn't come into the equation.
Going against someone's Outpost is more like taking a quiz: the teacher wrote the questions beforehand, then the students give their answers, and afterward they're graded and the teacher can alter the quiz to better suit the next group of students who takes it. Except, this isn't a series of questions on a piece of paper, it's a gauntlet or obstacle course (so, maybe a physical fitness test).
the game may only have you interacting with ai controlled elements but it most definately IS player VS player. a player built the outpost and a player is attacking the outpost.
Games referred to as PvE have levels that were designed by people. The people designing the levels in MYM just happen to be players. PvP means the opponent you're going up against is controlled by a player.
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It's ridiculous how long it takes to reload an Outpost. And at least some of the gore/blood from the Custodian and enemies dying is still there upon reloading, which is... interesting.
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The grappling hook is really awkward when I try to use it (and when watching replays the difference in how well a PS4 player vs a PC player can grapple is quite noticeable), and you can't really go speedy without it. Even trying to slowly and carefully grapple has gotten me killed a lot, getting caught in spots or not going where I tried to aim for; I really don't understand how PC players can do it so rapidly.
It'd also be really difficult to do anything time-based in an Outpost when path length and trap density can vary so wildly. The game really sucks at determining difficulty level based on these two factors, so I'm not sure how the system could fairly determine a timer based on them. The complaints from Raiders would go from Corrosive Cubes and Plasma Sentinels to Outposts of nothing but Pistons.
This game is really more about players challenging themselves. "Rank" shouldn't be called rank when it's really a battlepass and not competitive. There should be no loss of battlepass points. And in a game that's all about dying and learning from each death, players shouldn't be penalized for dying. People could play how they like and challenge themselves how they like and be rewarded for getting the GenMat, whether the reason for getting the GenMat was by doing it perfectly the first try or dying 100 times and learning and persisting. Both ways are valid.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3419480#Comment_3419480
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3419481#Comment_3419481
My bad.
But it looks like there was only a reward for the open and not the closed beta. Or am i wrong here too?
According to this, anyone who signed up for the closed beta got the HRV decal:
https://twitter.com/MeetYourMaker/status/1595123537077235712(I wouldn't know, I didn't buy the game on Steam. I have it where I have DbD, on PS4.)
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3419468#Comment_3419468
Thats why it should be completely removed. A rank system might be good for a pvp game. But this is a pve game.
The people that struggle to rank up are not motivated and the streamers that rushed to master rank are also not motivated to keep playing.
Since the devs haven´t announced any rank rewards, there wouldn´t be lost anything if they just removed ranks. If i remember correctly, beta hat no ranks and people were more motivated to play and die.
As its now the whole concept of "raid, die, learn from your mistakes and beat the base" totally gets thrown out of the window, because people just don´t want to lose rank points. Removing negative points, might help. But while we´re at it, why just not remove it completely? As its no measurable reflection of skill.
^ This.
Rank wasn't in the closed beta, it was added after the game was basically completed. The game was not designed around rank. My guess is someone thought it would increase player retention and didn't understand how it conflicts with the game's premise.
Bronze through Gold isn't even a competitive ranking system, it's a battlepass. It's rank in name only, but I think calling it "rank" at all is bad because the term has certain expectations and baggage carried with it. I'd rather the game call it something like "Devotion." The point of it is to encourage people to play during the season. Reward a set amount of points per difficulty level just for stealing the GenMat and let that be the end of it. Dying shouldn't matter. Reward Builders for kills and extracting GenMat from their bases. No more point loss at all.
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Killboxes also exist because Outposts expire and get put into the Social retirement home, and that discourages Builders from putting in effort. Why bother spending hours on something that has a short lifespan and then becomes worthless? Screw it, just quickly spam some traps and be done with it.
"these STOOPID builders don't know how ELSE to get kills!"
I've been reading three different MYM forums and I have hardly seen this sentiment. I've seen people say what I said about the game not encouraging effort (the word "lazy" is used a lot), and I've seen people say the ranking system is to blame.
(MYM was not designed around the ranking system. Rank wasn't even in the closed beta. The addition of "get lots of kills or be punished" has had a negative effect on the game.)
@PinkiePie said:
False, if the builder does not kill enough he loses rank points
Yeah, a single Raider visits my small Normal base, I get three kills, and I lose rank points for it. I hate the rank system, I really do.
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This is a rank competitive game
Nope. Rank wasn't even in the closed beta, it was added after the game was pretty much completed (and poorly added, at that) probably because someone thought it would increase player retention. Instead, it's caused a lot of friction in the playerbase.
we dont need to get most of the prestige exp in votes and more exp should be given by kills
Except this was done very much on purpose. In this Twitch stream a Meet Your Maker developer talks about how Accolades are more important than kills and how for Builders base design is a balance between fun and challenging: bases need to be fun so that Raiders will stick around and be willing to die multiple times attempting to complete them.
If the devs don't stress that Outposts need to be fun, they risk Builders not caring. If Builders ignore making bases fun, then no one will be willing to raid.
The only ones giving votes rigth now are noobie people
I give Accolades.
The devs actually screwed up kinda big here. A lot of console players think they're giving Accolades but aren't, because it's not made clear that they have to press a non-intuitive button to select an Accolade; the button they've been trained to push to select everything is the one that leaves the screen. The game gives no feedback to correct this. I've seen players say they're forced to leave an Accolade, so they definitely don't understand they're not actually giving Accolades to anyone.
PlayStation makes up the majority of the playerbase right now, so this hurts Builders a lot.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3414033#Comment_3414033
It just feels weird. They say, that they are listening. But are not interacting with the community. The release dev stream really looked promising. The devs were playing player created maps, the viewers could vote which map to play, they talked about the future, etc. THAT was interacting with the community. Not what we had in the last 3 weeks. So far it looks like we will get a new mod every 2 weeks. Why not make a dev stream twice a month, where the devs speak about the mod and show some actual bases where the mods are applied? So people could see whats coming, how to use it, and hype about it.
DbD has a kill switch for bugged content. I would have imagined, that MyM would have something similar, because the devs are from the same company. The whole corrosive cube issue could have been prevented with just kill switching the second stage mod for the cube. Problem solved, people can still use the cubes, but not exploit it anymore. Everyone happy.
Alt-F4 a base shouldn´t be a thing in the first place. I mean, the game saves progress during the raid. It saves how often you died and that you raided the tombs. But it doesn´t save how many mats you have collected? Or that the builder should get X amount of ressources for the kills when the raider left early?
Some things simply shouldn´t be in the game. Blocking for example, whats the point of blocking other players in a game that relies of invading other players bases? It wouldn´t surprise me, if people that complain about not getting raided, are the same that have a ton of players blocked.
Ranks, also something that could be removed in an eye blink and no one would complain. So far there has been no rank reward revealed. But the community is hellbend on the idea, that we´ll get limited cosmetics. So people abandon a raid early, when they die. Because their rank will suffer and they won´t get that cosmetic that hasn´t been confirmed yet. Everything around the game revolves about dying, learning and finally beating the base. BUT doing so and losing a ton of rank points doesn´t feel rewarding at all.
Parts to Synth economy makes no sense. I get easily 2 or 3 times as many parts as i get synth and i have no idea what to do with all the parts. I have stacked over 100 of every consumable and still sit on over 25k parts. Also the boosts make no sense. Since the drops are completely random, there is no way to see if the 30% increased drop rate actually is doing something. Had a raid, where i earned 20 Synth and 90 parts, despite having the 30% increased synth drop boost activated. Instead of having this completely rng based, why not give the bonus after the raid? So you could see, that you earned X amount of Synth and with the bonus you get this on top.
They say, that they are listening. But are not interacting with the community.
That has been really weird. I don't understand the lack of interaction. Even their daily Tweets are just marketing or telling people things that should have been in the tutorial; they're not engaging with the community at all.
Some things simply shouldn´t be in the game. Blocking for example, whats the point of blocking other players in a game that relies of invading other players bases?
I would not have released the game with the Block function. That's something that should be a last resort, but everyone seems to think of it as the first and easiest option. BHVR made some really poor choices. They say they want Builders to have to build a fun base that will encourage Raiders to stick around and die repeatedly, but then they kind of force Raiders to stick around by docking them rank points for leaving, and they also punish the Raider for dying. The only option left for Raiders after that is to stick to easy bases. And when you add all that together with the rather useless difficulty ratings and the lack of tags for bases, of course the block function looks super attractive to a lot of players.
In the AMA they said they'll be getting rid of the rank loss for leaving a base, but they don't mention getting rid of rank loss for dying, and while I'm happy to see it gone for leaving I will be super confused if players still lose rank for dying.
Ranks, also something that could be removed in an eye blink and no one would complain.
Yeah, speaking of poor choices. This game isn't competitive, there shouldn't be rank; if BHVR wants to do a battlepass-type thing, call it a battlepass or some other name without the baggage of "rank." But, not only do they have rank, players can lose progress, and that kills creativity, it kills the gameplay loop of die-learn-persist they designed and advertised.
Then there are Outposts. Accolades award more than kills towards Prestige, but Accolades give nothing towards rank: only kills matter for rank. I guess someone thought the two systems would complement each other, but with rank loss they absolutely conflict. (It's like how the emblem system is supposed to ensure people play in a way that's fun for the opposing side rather than playing efficiently to win, but because of depipping it just causes friction within DbD.)
There has to be some decision maker at BHVR who thinks things like rank (and rank loss) and grinding are required for player retention. (DbD still has depipping this long after Ranks changed to Grades.) I'd like to think the MYM developers who designed the gameplay of "Take another step forward with every attempt. Reveal a new strategy with every death. Master every Outpost that stands in your way." did not volunteer a rank system that punishes death as a good idea. Someone at BHVR values rank and grind, and hopefully they'll relent if it's shown to be killing the game. DbD continues to survive no matter what, but MYM is not DbD.
Everything around the game revolves about dying, learning and finally beating the base. BUT doing so and losing a ton of rank points doesn´t feel rewarding at all.
I couldn't agree more. It hurts when Outposts lose rank points, too.
the boosts make no sense.
The only Boost I've ever used is the tier 3 info boost a couple times. The others seem useless. I was tempted to use the Prestige boost, but a 20% or whatever boost to 0 Prestige is still 0. That crap doesn't help when it's time based and you can get zero raids during that time.
That's one of those other bad decisions in this game: things being time based. I get that it's appealing to make things time based because it's the easiest to implement, but it makes players miserable when it punishes them without any alternatives or recourse. It also inflates the grind really bad. To keep putting your base up over and over again: yes, an Outpost extracts GenMat, but most Builders don't care about the GenMat, they want Raiders, they want to watch replays. The grind and lore can say the GenMat is the goal all it wants, but in the Insomniac stream it sounded like the MYM developer understood that getting raided is the player's desired goal.
Yeah, different mechanics in the game compete with each other and hurt gameplay. Some of those things may have happened because the devs planned for the best without safeguarding against the worst, or maybe an overseer thought some things would be good financially for player retention without actually understanding player psychology. Either way, I hope this stuff gets fixed before it's too late.
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@MadameExotine said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3414222#Comment_3414222
Yay, happy to hear some of those changes are coming!
What is the minimum amount of kills an outpost needs in order to not lose rank points? (I must've been just above the cut off line to ever see it). If that is a thing, I hope devs make it so builders never lose rank points. Alot of time goes into building compared to raiding.
What is the minimum amount of kills an outpost needs in order to not lose rank points?
I wish I knew. I sometimes get blind sided by the rank loss when it comes to Outposts. I'm not even sure it's consistent. Some people have suggested rank or level comes into play, but I haven't heard anything definite.
I think I saw on the pop-up screen that one Outpost with a single raid where the Raider didn't die lost me 30 rank points, and three raids in a row where the Raiders didn't die lost me 90 rank points. That's deathless, though. If they had died once, I'm not sure what it would've been, but I'm pretty sure it still would've lost points. The kill ratio the game expects seems to be pretty high according to others.
Alot of time goes into building compared to raiding.
Yeah, it's extremely discouraging to put a lot of time into building a base and then see it get dumped on by the ranking system for reasons you don't even fully understand.
To be fair, some Raiders can put a lot of time into defeating a single Outpost. Some Builders have replays of over a hundred deaths from a single Raider who kept trying for hours until they beat it. And that dedicated Raider lost rank points for their effort. It's a horrible system all around.
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@Dreamnomad said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3414084#Comment_3414084
9 times out of 10, I kill the Harvester myself. He's almost gotten me killed a few times where I trigger a trap and try to back up out of the way only to bump into him. But that is my choice. If a base builder auto-kills Harvey then you generally know you are in for a bad time. Not because of difficulty. Just about every maze map I've run into wasn't especially hard since they generally spread their traps out. It just turns into a huge time suck that isn't worth it. So you know what? I'm going to do a 180 on this issue. Go ahead and kill Harvey. That way I know to immediately abandon that mission and get on with a mission that is worth my time.
Well, it sounds like BHVR agrees that the HRV's death should be the Raider's choice/fault:
Q: Will anything be done about players killing the Harvester on spawn with the Death Piston trap?
A: There are ultimately two categories of “killing the Harvester”. What is considered fair game and what is considered unfair. Ideally, we want to prevent any situation where the Harvester is killed without the Raider having any chances to prevent it from happening. As an example, we are looking into fixing traps that are placed directly where the Harvester spawns.
However, it is a dangerous world out there and poor Harvey will still succumb to devious Builder contraption if Raiders are not careful.
From today's AMA, for anyone who missed it: https://www.reddit.com/r/MeetYourMakerGame/comments/1327rv3/qa_with_the_dev_team_april_2023/
I still think it'd be nice to have a tagging system where "maze" or "multi-path" is an option and Outposts with that tag can choose not to spawn the HRV in at the beginning, so Builders can still do that and any Raider who goes to one of those Outposts wants to be there. That's my own personal feeling on the matter, though.
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There should be basic paint options (that don't count as decals). A Builder can spam clockwork props for maximum noise pollution at 7 fps, but Builders can't paint blocks green to imply grass.
We also need glowing blocks (which can be different colors) that are just decorative. A lot of people use the Corrosive Cubes as decoration but those increase the difficulty rating (and can cause people to avoid your Outpost because the Boost can't tell the difference between your very cool glowing lake and a killbox).
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Yeah, there definitely should be some sort of barrier that stops ammo from landing out in the desert. I've lost a lot of time searching for ammo out there, and one time with the near-zero visibility in the sandstorm I got so turned around retrieving the ammo it took me a couple extra minutes to then figure out where the Outpost was (okay, that might be a me thing, I have no sense of direction).
There's something about being able to walk out into the desert and into the sandstorm that I like. It makes the world feel bigger, maybe. But just because the player can go out there doesn't mean ammo needs to.
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@MadameExotine said:
With how grindy it is to Rank up,... there should be NO penalty for raiders abandoning or even dying too much on an outposts. It should be bottom capped at 0.
Builders don't rank down! And neither should Raiders. Without rank down penalties, raiders can actually appreciate harder bases, without worrying about losing rank.
Like I remember I was on a very impressively designed base (artistic+smart+fun+brutal), but abandoned it after getting killed a few too many times, because I didn't want to rank down. I would have LOVED to keep playing on that base, but would have been punished by game design if I had stayed. 😓
Builders don't rank down!
Builders rank down. If your base doesn't get enough kills, it definitely subtracts points. If it happens while you're in a raid, then it'll be combined with your rank points from the raid. Otherwise, it's in that popup screen in the Sanctuary that shows the stats of your current active Outposts.
there should be NO penalty for raiders abandoning or even dying too much on an outposts
The devs are definitely looking at fixing half of that. From the AMA that was posted today:
"If you start an Outpost that you don’t like the look of – you have the option to leave it. We've heard the feedback that this is detrimental to your Ranking, and we will be changing this to no longer subtract Ranking points for abandoning an Outpost – this change is planned within the next couple weeks."
source: https://www.reddit.com/r/MeetYourMakerGame/comments/1327rv3/qa_with_the_dev_team_april_2023/
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I mean, it's already been explained to those people multiple times why this is a terrible idea. They then start making it more complicated with talk of checkpoints and whatnot like they'll ever have another Outpost to raid ever again if that went through. No one's going to want to deal with that. Maybe some players will throw some quick easy garbage together for passive GenMat extractor Outposts, but those'll be less fun to raid than a literal sandbox.
I'd like to see the HRV improved upon so he doesn't get caught on certain inclines and can climb and do some basic console-friendly grappling, that way bases can be more interesting. Otherwise, I personally like the current system as it is.
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Oh, wow. Yeah.
I ended up watching the stream. While most of it isn't new information, it is nice to hear confirmation that the devs designed the game with certain intentions. I've been watching some people on the Steam forums say the game isn't a level designer, Accolades are secondary to kills, people are misunderstanding what the game is about and the players who are unhappy are wrong, etc. etc. This stream proves those people are wrong: they're misunderstanding the devs' fumbles as their intentions.
The dev talks about how Accolades purposefully reward more than kills. He talks about how building is a balance with making sure your base is challenging and fun so Raiders will stick around and keep dying to it (so all the Builders saying Raiders should be forced to stay and die repeatedly have missed the point). He talks about how they're looking into expanding on Social Raids, looking into doing more with P10 bases (I know with BHVR nothing is guaranteed until it's actually in the game, but this shows that the devs are not hardcore set on keeping the current Outpost system exactly as it is). I'd go tell those people on the Steam forums off if I weren't dead set on staying the hell off the Steam forums, plus they'll always find some way to argue no matter how ridiculous the interpretation required to do so (I saw that with the people defending the Corrosive Cube bug as intentional despite the Launch Day patch notes, holy hell).
Sorry. It's been disappointing to read the different forums and see all kinds of terrible takes on the game. Defending crap that's bad like it's intentional (as if being intentional somehow makes it good). MYM could be really fun, but the devs made some mistakes that have had negative effects on the community (Raiders get docked rank points for leaving a base, so they demand every base must be exactly to their liking and any Builder who fails at that even once gets blocked... I try to make fun bases, it makes me sad to think one misstep could get me blocked. Blocking a player seems so extreme to me but people are doing that over Abandoning an Outpost because BHVR somehow made blocking the more obvious/enticing option.). The directions the game took are at odds with the intentions. "Builders need to make fun bases so Raiders are willing to die repeatedly to them. But also Raiders are docked Rank points for dying, so they're not going to be willing to die no matter what."
The dev says if you play a base over and over again but end up leaving, you walk away with hundreds of Synthite and hundreds of Parts. lol. Hundreds of Parts, yes. Either he misspoke or someone needs to adjust the RNG like a lot. Makes me wonder if they realize just how bad the Synthite grind actually is.
Even the part about "listening to the community" shows a lack of awareness. The devs may be listening, but they're not responding, so the community thinks they're being ignored.
I hope the devs really are paying attention. For some reason I rather like this game and would prefer to see it survive.
Edit: Oh hey, they did an AMA where they address some of the playerbase's concerns. I know this doesn't mean anything will definitely get fixed, but hey, they haven't abandoned us yet, that's something.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3413552#Comment_3413552
You haven´t missed much. They just introduce the game, speak about the difficulty of creating interesting content for purely player driven content and how important it is to listen to the community...
"how important it is to listen to the community"
What?
lol
lmao
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It's not the community's fault. It's BHVR's.
BHVR announced seasonal cosmetics as a reward for rank, but players can lose rank progress, so immediately the willingness to play Brutal bases dropped. That was easily predictable.
Looking past difficulty at just the size, the reward for playing a large base doesn't necessarily make up for the amount of time that may be sunk into it. The raider has no idea beforehand if it'll be fun. There are no tags to help Raiders identify an Outpost they'll enjoy. The only bonus a large base provides is more Tombs, but there's no guarantee the Builder hasn't blocked off the Tombs (and the number of Tombs that dump nothing but Parts on me makes me want to cry). Builders are likely to go after large bases for the freedom they provide when building, but Raiders aren't incentivized to raid them.
I doubt the majority of the community is happy about the direction things have taken. Players would rather challenge themselves than be bored. Players would rather spend a lot of time in a base they'll enjoy than play a lot of short uninteresting bases, but they need to grind for materials and more bases = more materials. By BHVR's design, players are actively discouraged from taking chances and are instead encouraged to play it safe. Players did seem to be playing Brutal bases before the announcement; BHVR changed the course of the game for the worse by bringing attention to rank.
tldr: BHVR has pushed the entire community away from Brutal bases, first as Raiders and consequently as Builders, and now that includes you. The community lost. BHVR won.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3413531#Comment_3413531
Yeah i also only saw it, because MyM Twitter retweeted it.
https://twitter.com/insomniacgames/status/1651295433501839360
Oh, okay! I actually caught a bit of that but only saw them playing MYM and clicked off. I'll have to go back and check it out. Thank you!
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3413012#Comment_3413012
I don´t think rank plays a role in regard of what maps you find. For example, in yesterdays stream a dev said that new players are not limited on what kind of maps they can play on. That implys that rank has no effect on matchmaking.
in yesterdays stream
There was a stream yesterday? Shoot, I missed that and can't find anything about it :(
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I agree. Boil Over users are highly likely to bleed out for four minutes in my matches. It's not a fun perk. There are no requirements, no activations, no limits. It's always on. The only counter to it a killer has is slugging.
(I also wish BHVR would fix wiggling. The updated version feels awful on console, but when a PC killer carries me they don't seem affected by my wiggling at all.)
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@MadMoeZel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3413134#Comment_3413134
shrug
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3413136#Comment_3413136
rank only matters to rank grinders. if they care enough about rank to grind it, they aren't quitting the game over 60 when they decided to give up. why is a casual player quitting because of rank? none of it matters until you hit masters by your own statement "This isn't a competitive game and the Rank system here is in name only until it reaches Master;"
why would punishing quitters doubly and rewarding players who don't quit -at high ranks- be something you would be against?
i could be convinced that a provision that keeps this from affecting non-masters could be in place.
There is something about losing points for any reason that makes many players unhappy. Even though I already reached Master, when a new Outpost I designed turned out to not be getting enough kills, seeing -214 rank points just felt really sucky. I immediately deactivated the Outpost, stripped it, and haven't built a new one since. I feel demotivated and completely discouraged. Being at Master I don't even need rank points anymore, I don't want to be ranked, but when I get zero points for having no Outpost and negative points for the one I built, then the game has told me the Outpost I created is worse than nothing.
I think in a video game rewards are better than punishment. People can have really negative reactions to punishment. There's no reason to use negative tactics that risk alienating players. This is a game, not a job, so the moment it doesn't feel fun that potential customer is gone.
In general, I don't like point deductions. On the Steam page, it says "Take another step forward with every attempt. Reveal a new strategy with every death." Then the game goes against that and punishes Raiders for death by deducting points. The reward for stealing the GenMat should be the same no matter how many times a Raider dies. And if a Raider attempts a base that turns out to be beyond their skill level, they already lost time to it, they don't need to also lose rank points for leaving: it should just reward zero rank points. If a Raider ends up on an Outpost they can't beat and has to lose 60 points to leave it, what happens next is they drop down to easier Outposts and Builders of harder Outposts get screwed out of Raiders. (Hell, that already happened the moment seasonal cosmetics were announced as rank rewards.) The game needs to encourage players to challenge themselves even if they can't meet that challenge. If players don't challenge themselves, they don't get better: they stagnate and get bored and stop playing.
Taking something away from a person can also cause feelings of contempt. I've noticed this already in a lot of posts on the different MYM forums. Many Raiders are angry with Builders who create Outposts that are too hard or not fun. They could just leave if they're not having fun, except they lose rank points for that, and in their eyes that becomes the Builder's fault. Many Builders get upset with Raiders who quit after one death, too, because it hurts their ratio and hurts their rank and they see the Raiders as having slighted them. It's unhealthy and it's causing a rift in the playerbase.
From my perspective, any good reasons to keep rank point deductions are outweighed by the negatives. Then again, I feel that BHVR really should just call it a battlepass like it is, and players definitely shouldn't lose progress in a battlepass. The game wasn't designed to be competitive, and I think trying to force it is unhealthy, but if some players really want to compete then there could be an opt-in to being Ranked where the competition is its own reward and then those players can discuss amongst themselves how many points they should gain and lose for their actions. Personally, I just want to play and challenge myself, earn anything offered, and not have the game discourage me every time I attempt something.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3413269#Comment_3413269
I don't think any matchmaking system is that good...
Mainly because playstyle changes from game to game. Based on perks, current challenge etc.
I would probably prefer an old matchmaking. It simply made sure that there are were no straight new players and were somewhat decent. (SWF broke that system tho)
I don't think any matchmaking system is that good...
Probably not, but the current matchmaking is particularly awful, at least in my experience. There are some trends in gameplay the system should be able to pick up on, but I swear it purposefully puts survivors who do nothing but hide with survivors who work on gens, like the one who work on gens will be willing to carry the match rather than get fed up and refuse to queue up as survivor for the next few weeks. /rant
(SWF broke that system tho)
SWF breaks every system. You go by the highest rank and the lowest ranked survivor gets tunneled out first thing. You go by the lowest rank and a newbie killer gets run around for five gens by the best in the group (which can also be a problem if you go by the average survivor rank).