TragicSolitude
TragicSolitude
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Sounds like you have the Y-axis for camera movement inverted in the settings.
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@DarKStaR350z said:
What’s crazy is how quick survivors can DC or ‘go next’ on hook at the start of the game because they feel the game is already lost; but when it’s down to the last 2 they often just try and hide each other out for forever no matter how many gens are done for what 2500 extra escape points?
The hatch itself is 2500 BP. Surviving in general is 7000 BP. Surviving as the obsession adds another 1500 BP to all that.
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@drsoontm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3823389#Comment_3823389
That is what annoys me the most in this situation.
When it happens to me of course (and I'm the one being on the gen, I'd rather go next than waste time that much).
But when I'm the killer and I notice there is one courageous one doing something while the last one hides like a coward I'd like to scream : point me to the other one and I'll let you go.
when I'm the killer and I notice there is one courageous one doing something while the last one hides like a coward I'd like to scream : point me to the other one and I'll let you go.
If I'm one of the last two survivors and my teammate was not helping and the killer saw me working and didn't kill me… I won't open an exit gate. I go off, I do bones, I look for chests, I walk around taking in the sights… at some point the other survivor will go for an exit gate, and when the killer interrupts them I help my teammate as much as they helped me.
It's rare I get the opportunity to do that, usually the killer kills the first person they find, but I'm very appreciate of a killer who pays attention and has sympathy. I try to repay what I can.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3823675#Comment_3823675
It shouldn't be necessary.
The last two survivors hide because they have no other viable options unless one of them sacrifices themselves for the other. Two solo survivors are unlikely to want to be the sacrifice and instead wait for the other to be found first.
If survivors rated the chances at furthering the objective when down to 2 survivors remaining, then this wouldn't happen.
How we manage that is a more complicated question.
How we manage that is a more complicated question.
I'm making no comment as to how it should be handled. Just saying that the game is currently in a bad state, because the intuitive thing for survivors to do when there are only two left is to hide and wait for the hatch. But the game is balanced around killers patrolling generators to find survivors; the game breaks when survivors avoid gens and the killer is forced to search the entire map. So the devs need to do something, because the final two survivors hiding is in no way uncommon.
Reporting people breaking the rules is not a solution and BHVR should not put the onus of dealing with this on its players. They need to fix the game. That probably requires a sophisticated touch that includes multiple elements, like making participating more lucrative for survivors, making escape seem more possible, and/or damaging one's own chance at escape if they don't participate. Whatever the devs do, they need to do something. I don't like being the killer trying to find the final survivors, and I like it even less when I'm one of the final survivors and I'm trying to do gens while my teammates do nothing but hide.
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@MaddieMage said:
Unfortunately the last two survivors hiding is a result of the constant “slugging for the 4K” playstyle. They don’t wanna come out and do gens or even help the other person when they know killers are just gonna slug one and then likely camp the slugged survivor to get the 4th down. It’s understandable that they’re just like “hide it out as long as possible so maybe one of us has a shot at hatch.”
By punishing this, it basically send the message that the game is over when 2 people are left, which will result in more DCs and giving up on hooks.
This is how certain playstyles create counter playstyles that create counter playstyles etc.
By punishing this
The last two survivors hiding breaks the game's rules. If they're not working on their objective and also not allowing the killer to complete their objective, it's considered holding the killer hostage. It's a reportable, bannable offense. BHVR needs to do something about it in-game because it's unintuitive that this breaks the game's rules. It'd be better if it just weren't possible.
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I had a Clown burn Dead Dawg and go behind the saloon counter and serve drinks all match.
During Lights Out 2.0, my friend and I would make circles and what not with the candles. We had a few Dracula puppies running through them playfully, god I love Dracula puppy. The best was setting up the candles in Dead Dawg, putting them on the saloon counter and on the tables; they lit the interior up beautifully. One Sadako went behind the counter and served drinks.
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@drsoontm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3823121#Comment_3823121
That's absolute truth.
I almost never have a problem with the killer I'm versing. My random teammates are almost always what's wrong.
Even when I manage to drag one of two from an old team with me, the randoms will almost always be the 5th killer perk.
It's also pretty evident when I play killer. The ones playing well and together vs the dead weight who are killing their team.
I'm not even counting the ones who give up or take an early exit on first hook.
And there is something new that I've noticed (as killer) during this event: survivors hiding all game in the void while the others are trying to play a 3vs1. It's pretty obvious given the icon next to their name.
It's like if the MMR was grouping the absolute worst players to try to give them a chance to have a win without caring one bit for the normal survivors they'll drag down with them.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3823135#Comment_3823135
You got it right.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3823146#Comment_3823146
I guess we all have horror stories about such teammates.
If I'm the killer, I make sure these don't live. Thanks to the anti-face-camp mechanic, I can even save the hooked ones now. (By sticking to the hook and letting them go.)
The MMR should separate players who give up or sabotage from the ones who fight to the end.
When you read the forum, you can sometimes guess who's who, when they don't straight up boast about giving up.
BHVR should make it clear it's a team game for survivors and that the win is 3 or more people out, whoever gets out.
Someone should even be more rewarded for a hook exchange that leads to a save than saving oneself.
(And some changes should probably be made for killers wins too but that's a different subject.)
It's like if the MMR was grouping the absolute worst players to try to give them a chance to have a win without caring one bit for the normal survivors they'll drag down with them.
I sometimes worry this is what's happening. It certainly feels like it some days.
The MMR should separate players who give up or sabotage from the ones who fight to the end.
Absolutely.
I wish the queue system were smarter. Put like playstyle with like. The ones who are team players put with other team players. Lone wolves put with lone wolves. And trolls put with trolls. Having everyone grouped into one queue doesn't make the game unpredictable or fun; it's misery roulette.
BHVR should make it clear it's a team game for survivors and that the win is 3 or more people out, whoever gets out.
Someone should even be more rewarded for a hook exchange that leads to a save than saving oneself.
I did a whole long post elsewhere that went into how the game punishes altruism. Die doing something heroic, you lose out on the escape points and your MMR goes down and the game only says "SACRIFICED" like you didn't just selflessly rescue your teammate. Escape being so heavily rewarded means dying is hugely punished, which means risk (especially risk that benefits someone else and not yourself) is often considered not worth it.
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There are also a lot of outfits where the survivor's head or killer's weapon definitely don't need to be linked. I wish BHVR would unlink the sets that really don't need it and create a more sophisticated system that allows them to link only two pieces instead of requiring all three.
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Boil Over and Lucky Break as killer (I'm on console). Knockout as survivor.
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@MaddieMage said:
I think the biggest issue with these game modes and events is that when they get released with all the issues, being completely unbalanced, etc nothing ever gets fixed to make the event or mode balanced before it ends so people can actually enjoy it.
Obviously game modes like lights out, 2v8 are a bit harder to fix because they’re testing to see what works. And that’s okay because we know they’re gonna bring it back soon in its next iteration with all the feedback taken into account.
But for events… that’s basically a bust because they’re once a year. People get hyped for these events once a year and then they come out and are always heavily survivor or killer sided so one side always has a miserable time with no chance for it to be tweaked.
Like this Halloween event. Last year it heavily favored survivors and so killers had an awful time and just had to endure it and wait a whole year to be able to play it and have fun. Now this year, for whatever reason the devs decided “Lets move the pendulum so far in the other direction for killers.” so now the event is a bust for survivors. And now we have to wait another year for this event to come back and HOPE that they actually balance it properly.
And for the record, this is NOT an issue of “one side will always be mad cuz it doesn’t favor them.” No. Killers had a legit reason to be upset last year. Survivors have a legit reason to be upset this year.
My question is… why does no one play test this stuff before they go live? What is the process for actually trying to balance these events? Is there one?
Also I’m not interested in any comments saying “It doesn’t need to be balanced it’s a short term event.” Because that’s BS. That tells me you only care about events as long as they’re balanced in your favor because were the shoe on the other foot you’d be upset about a once a year event being unfun and unbalanced for you to play too. Being a limited time event and “you can opt out of the event if you don’t like it.” Is not a reasonable excuse. People shouldn’t have to opt out of a once a year thing because it was made in a way that favors one role over the other. /soapbox
why does no one play test this stuff before they go live?
Game devs see the game as they want it to be played. This is in general across many/most games and game developers. It's like that in areas outside of game development as well, people see a thing as it's meant to be perceived and may have trouble seeing it outside of that perspective.
Even if BHVR released these modes to be playtested among a small subset of other players, it probably still wouldn't be the same as what occurs when the mode is released into the wild. BHVR would do well to make a list of the worst of the worst-case scenarios and assume every one of them can and will happen, but they have more faith in their playerbase than the playerbase deserves. Or perhaps the developers at BHVR aren't adept at imagining worst-case scenarios. After all, somehow they didn't realize survivors would stack as many Endurance hits as possible in that one PTB.
If SBMM and the queue could discern playstyles, it could put like-minded players together for a more harmonious experience. Instead, casual and competitive players are put together for discordant matches full of friction.
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@Ayodam said:
It certainly feels like there are less people playing survivor right now (in the event my survivor queue is taking 3 minutes and so does killer, technically, before the lobby fills up). I don’t think it’s an exodus but I do believe that there aren’t as many people queueing for survivor as there were 2-4 years ago.
I don’t think it’s an exodus but I do believe that there aren’t as many people queueing for survivor as there were 2-4 years ago.
The original post is being sarcastic. A long queue means there are too many players. A short queue means there aren't enough players. If the survivor queue is so long that drsoontm gives up and plays killer instead, there isn't an exodus of survivors (at least in drsoontm's MMR/region).
@Akumakaji said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3822476#Comment_3822476
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3823119#Comment_3823119
You are both right. I never gave it much thought, but most of my bad survivor matches had a direct link to bad teammates - or antimates, as we call them.
This is especially noticable in a duo-SWF, where you can always count on your buddy to have your back, but the other two are absolute coin tosses so often turn up blank.
I talked about this in some other thread, but I had a recent game where Corrupt Intervention blocked all the main hall gens in RPD and me and my mate got chased all over the east side and tried to pressure gens there, while the killer was around and pingponging between us, while the other two survivors took their merry time to chill out next to a blocked gen, either till the 2min were up or one of us went down.
And when we both got eventually hooked, they took their merry time to peel away from their respective gens, leading to a cosy 4K at 4 gens.
most of my bad survivor matches had a direct link to bad teammates
I have been championing this sentiment for so long. My worst matches are due to teammates. MMR and the way this game rewards survivors in general have culminated in horrible experiences in solo queue.
It's understood that when killers play to win they're trying to kill me. When survivors play to win by trying to kill me, the game becomes miserable. I wish DbD rewarded better MMR and more Bloodpoints for survivors participating instead of survivors escaping. The emphasis on escape causes a lot of harm.
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I could certainly understand a "skip cinematic" option, because that's basically what's being asked for, the option to skip a cinematic you may have already seen a million times before.
I wouldn't be surprised if BHVR crashed their entire system if they tried to implement it, though. It's not uncommon for me to get a "Dedicated server not responding" error upon finishing a match before the score screens load in. And I lose all my points for it. And get told it's on my end, which is unlikely but also why would that matter, the match was over but I lost my points because it messed up loading the end screen…
This has been another episode of TragicSolitude complaining about broken stuff in DbD.
On topic, though, yeah, I've played games where I can't skip cinematics when doing a second playthrough and I get bored and impatient and may not even finish the game again. Hell, even in games I love I'm button mashing during those few seconds of animation after defeating a boss because come on let me get back to playing the game. And when you think about all the hours some players put into DbD… mori animations may be more interesting than dying on the hook, but very few things remain interesting after seeing them over and over and over again.
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God, no. Please no.
Let survivors earn more for participating. Why should earning a good amount of points be held out of survivors' reach? No, let Bloodpoints and better MMR be rewarded for participating in the match. Too much emphasis is already placed on escaping.
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3823075#Comment_3823075
See, I am quite in support of not nerfing WoO, but someone always has to bring up this notion here, ie "killers wil only be happy once survivors start the trial on the hook". I understand that its sarcasm, but what do you expect to gain by stating something this far removed from any reality? Its not funny, its not clever, its not helping you dismanteling the others cause, so why does this exact thing creeps up ALL the time? I seriously don't understand it. But I also don't understand the stronk urge to wait fuitile for 2min at the exit gates for the off-chance that the killer wants to admire your twerking skillz.
I understand that its sarcasm, but what do you expect to gain by stating something this far removed from any reality? Its not funny, its not clever, its not helping you dismanteling the others cause, so why does this exact thing creeps up ALL the time?
It may be sarcasm, but it paints a vivid picture in the reader's head that illustrates killers as being unreasonable. Bolstering your own argument by trying to discredit the other side is a common tactic. People on the forums don't do it right, though, they lack any subtlety with ad hominem. They start at 100 and then have nowhere to go, and if someone starts at 100 they come off as lacking credibility, but they don't get that. (I don't think people necessarily understand this is what they're doing, they're just copying what they see everyone else on the internet doing and so at this point 99% of people don't understand you're not actually supposed to do this in an argument. It's not just a fallacy; it can also make the person using it look silly and childish.)
Or the person gets killers responding "nuh-uh, survivors" and it becomes a survivor vs killer fight, which no one ever wins, but it derails any sensible argument. So many DbD threads get closed for that reason.
Edit: You probably already knew this. I mostly wrote this out in the hopes even one person might read it and adjust their argument style in the future.
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Had some fun playing the event before dinner yesterday. Memeing and what not. My friend and I like kicking pumpkins and throwing down the smoke grenades and playing the lute inside like we're on stage at a concert. (It's an event, if we wanted to play real matches we wouldn't play the event.)
Returned to playing the event after dinner, every match sucked. When I got trolled to death by two teammates and the killer wouldn't kill anyone else after, I left my friend to play a solo match and got put with a 3-man… so yeah, bad night. Throughout the matches we were getting killed at 4 or 5 gens, we were getting left on the ground a lot, killers and survivors seemed on completely different pages about just how seriously each side was taking the matches, and after a while we seemed to be getting more and more trolling teammates who didn't want to do anything but for some reason went out of their way to make sure their teammates died (not hiding but actively trying to get others killed), so we quit playing quite early.
And I still miss releasing haunts as a survivor. That was more fun than the smoke grenades.
Edit: wording/clarity
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@joel84 said:
Nobody can tell me that newcomers make up the majority of the player base. Times have changed. Many players don't want to memorize all the map layouts, and perks like windows of opportunity are especially helpful for newcomers. However, this also leads to survivors getting too comfortable.
When playing with perks like Genetic Limits, this is noticeable. Most survivors suddenly run around the map like chickens. Completely uncontrolled.
But one thing is clear: If the developers want to change the meta, they HAVE to adapt the WoO
I haven't played WoO for a long time and I'm already busy memorizing all the layouts to make it easier in the future (in case something happens)
is just a tip from me 😉
I'm already busy memorizing all the layouts to make it easier in the future (in case something happens)
I mean, while that is part of learning to play survivor, the devs also keep reworking maps, changing tiles, and making weird new tiles. You learn the layout, and then it gets changed and you have to unlearn what you knew and figure out the new layout.
So, "to make it easier in the future (in case something happens)" could mean survivors should learn the maps in case WoO gets gutted. "to make it easier in the future (in case something happens)" could also mean learning the maps is a waste of time because the maps can and will be updated and changed in the future.
Also, some people are just bad at direction or discerning certain details. No matter how many times I've been on Hawkins (back when it was first released and once again now that it's returned), I always get confused and turned around because I'm bad with direction and there aren't enough landmarks in the hallways to clue me in as to where I am. My friend learned it (and he plays less than I do), but I can't.
I don't even run WoO anymore, though I'm thinking of putting it on for a little bit to help me understand what in the world happened with some of these maps. I ran to a tile on Coldwind and was stumped as to what the hell the maze-like wall configuration was supposed to be good for because I didn't see a pallet anywhere. Having learned the map's old layout was not only useless but a detriment.
I'm not saying survivors shouldn't learn the maps, just that there are multiple ways to look at this. The maps change, and people's brains work differently, they have trouble with direction or memorization or spatial perception. Something that works for one person won't necessarily work for someone else. Everyone should keep that in mind. Plus, as was pointed out above, memorizing layouts won't help you guess what your teammates threw down when they were being chased.
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I've had many matches where I was playing a killer I'm awful with (or just downright hate) to do a daily ritual or tome challenge, and the survivors burned 2+ universal BP offerings. So I did the nice thing and closed the game. Because I didn't feel like trying to farm (and some killers have terrible Deviousness gains and suck for farming) and the survivors were probably going to make less than 15k each in that match.
Forcing me to stay in the match won't force me to change my plans: I'm going to do what I need to do and then I'm going to go stare at an exit gate. I'll feel a little bad the survivors will make nothing, but I'd feel worse trying to get any use out of say Deathslinger with whom I can't hit the broad side of a barn.
And I'm sure that goes for other people who close the game for other reasons because of the offerings burned: you can force them to stay in the match, but you can't force them to play it out. Matches with killers who stare at a wall are good if you happen to have "Escape through the exit gate" selected as your challenge, but those matches suck for everything else.
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I was looking forward to this event because I enjoyed releasing the ghosts as survivor last year.
Yeah, yeah, I know, I shouldn't get attached to things. I'm majorly disappointed, though. It was the one thing I wanted out of this event.
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Did BHVR ever specify that DS and OTR are strictly anti-tunneling perks? I could've sworn that's just what the community calls them. I had the impression perks like DS and OTR are meant to help the survivor get a bit of time to do other stuff between hookings. The amount of time they've been off the hook doesn't change just because a teammate got hooked. DS doesn't buy them an indefinite amount of time, and it doesn't allow them to progress the match while being unhookable.
DS originally existed as a punish-the-killer-for-winning-a-chase perk. When it got adjusted, it became a stab-the-killer-when-he-grabs-me-off-a-gen perk. Now a survivor can't touch a gen or heal someone or cleanse bones without deactivating their stabby perk, and it can't be used during the end game for a guaranteed escape. There are so many restrictions on DS, do we really need to give killers absolute control and let them disable it by sticking a slug on a hook?
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3820318#Comment_3820318
The Paradox of survivor MMR is that lower MMR brackets are more killer sided.
As survivors improve and gain experience, the difference in skill expression increases faster than it does for killers. Mostly due to teamwork and just the fact that skill expression is multiplied by four. Thus high MMR is survivor sided, low MMR is killer sided, generally speaking.
If you're a low MMR survivor, and your teammates are low skilled survivors (which is likely because they're low MMR) then you will have very poor chances unless you play cautiously and selfishly, and run Sole Survivor.
But that's really the solution here. If you need an escape or you think you need to climb out of MMR purgatory, run Sole Survivor and Wake Up, maybe a healing perk or an anti-tunnel perk, be the last one alive and then rush out the gates when the hatch is closed.
high MMR is survivor sided, low MMR is killer sided
You're absolutely right.
It's funny, I've been complaining about that side of SBMM since the beginning. Play well but your teammates don't, you die, MMR goes down, get worse teammates, cycle goes on forever. I guess it's just that it feels like at some point the game should hand you a win if you keep dying, but that's only a feeling and not how things actually work.
To get out of low MMR players are basically required to either play in a 4-man or play in an extremely selfish manner. Such an awful system. I can only wonder what data BHVR's HAL 9000 matchmaker is feeding them that SBMM continues to exist in its current form.
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@IAmGilgamesh said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3820440#Comment_3820440
It's not a joke when I wrote this. I had survivors giving up, hiding, trolling, working with the killers, not repairing generators, griefing, being toxic, disconnecting. I had killers playing as sweaty as possible day and night. They were either smurfs, lowering MMR by using auto clickers or whatever method they used to bring themselves down a notch in the system, or a high MMR killer filled in the queue because the previous killer left the lobby, or killers using VPN a ping so high you have no chance to escape crazy hits. They slug for 4K, they tunnel and proxy but simultaneously patrol the gens. 3 genning.
No, soloq is miserable and I'm not exaggerating or lying. This is happening and I'm done with playing survivor.
I had survivors giving up, hiding, trolling, working with the killers, not repairing generators, griefing, being toxic, disconnecting.
This I absolutely believe.
SBMM is based on escapes when it should be looking for survivors who do stuff like this. Death is a much easier metric to measure but filtering this type of behavior into its own bracket or queue would do a hell of a lot to improve the solo survivor experience. It only takes one teammate to throw the entire match and they can do it in so many different ways, like by going next on the hook or by refusing to participate (whether to grief or because they think it's a valid playstyle to wait for the hatch). A killer has to put forth some amount of effort to kill three survivors, but for a survivor it takes little to no effort to kill their three teammates.
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@100PercentBPMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3820870#Comment_3820870
Sometimes we are irrational and our opinions should be discarded. The best examples I can think of are release CoH, Boil Over and the RPD Library.
I know multiple people who argue to this day still that they should add thr Library back to RPD and should be able to run up there with no Hooks up there and bless the totem there with old unlimited super self care. That was how many years ago now?
We all know none of that can ever come back. Obviously WoO is nothing like any of that, but many people who play this game play only one side.
I don't think I'm expressing what I want to say properly enough that's not just interpreted as a long winded "mad cuz bad" so I hope you get the gist.
I think I understand what you're saying, but I still believe that's part of listening and determining if there's really a problem or not. It doesn't matter how many people want something "fun" back if it was unhealthy for the game. For balance elements devs need to have the skills/experience to make judgements that lead to a healthier game.
(Before someone else says anything about killer nerfs: it gets more complicated if we include disconnects as part of "loud," but disconnects disrupt matches and disrupt game balance in a way being loud on Twitter and the forums doesn't, so… yeah, I wouldn't include that here. That's a different conversation entirely.)
not just interpreted as a long winded "mad cuz bad"
You don't come off that way to me at all.
Edit: I should point out that I don't necessarily think BHVR is good at balancing their game. They make knee-jerk reactions when things are off-balance which lead to things swinging wildly in the opposite direction. If they do have trouble discerning whether or not to listen to the loud voices in their community, I believe they haven't been working on the right skills, because analyzing customer feedback and interpreting data are indeed skills.
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@100PercentBPMain said:
Killing yourself isn't a conspicuous action, otherwise you could argue that taking protection hits should disable DS too.
But...wait for it...plot twist! Nice Cage didn't actually die!
Please don't take my Plot Twist DS combo from me it's really funny
Killing yourself isn't a conspicuous action
This actually made me laugh 🤣 Nicely worded.
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@100PercentBPMain said:
This community needs a scapegoat to thrust their problems unto and WoO is perfect to blame. Everything is WoOs fault
This is part of the live service conundrum...do you cater to those who yellreally loud or ignore it as heat of the moment rambling?
part of the live service conundrum
I wouldn't say that's a conundrum but part of the necessary skillset: you listen to your playerbase, you look in the direction their complaints are pointing, and you see if their complaints are valid and if so are the players correctly pinpointing the problem or are they simply pointing at what's easily visible to them and the problem is something else?
The devs have stated before that there can be a large number of complaints about something but the data will say otherwise. Part of being human is that we're biased to remember the bad experiences more than the good ones, which is important to keep in mind when listening to generalized complaints. The devs have to balance complaints and data, and there's no perfect balance. DbD is a large part trial and error because there's no other game like it.
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Beast of Prey confuses survivors during chases. I enjoy that, even if I am running it for the BP.
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3820686#Comment_3820686
Well that makes sense, but who would DC after waiting 10mins for a match XD
They might not DC on purpose. It's not uncommon for dedicated servers to drop people, plus most everyone has internet connection issues at least randomly if not regularly.
I had at least one teammate become a bot while I was playing killer in 2v8 (that sucked, the bot was awful and did not participate in team play whatsoever, but I didn't realize it was a bot at the time and was super confused why my killer teammate walked away when I came over to help him). And I went against killer bots a few times while playing survivor in 2v8.
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@albertoplus said:
Its kinda interesting to see people always try to embrace the "it only helps new players to know where pallets are" route to not get WoO nerfed, while in reality it also helps 5k hours players by knowing where their non-swf teammates did drop the pallets. Unless with hours played you get some kind of omnipresence and know exactly what are the killer and the chased survivor doing on every situation (dont think thats the case, because otherwise old Eruption would still have the incapacitated effect as players would knew exactly the moment the killer is going to hit the survivor and stop repairing the gen to not get incapacitated) then it also helps people with thousands of hours, and a lot.
Fun fact: recently Otz made a new "killer and survivor perks tier list". When i started the video i though that probably WoO would be for him some kind of D or E tier perk, but to my surprise he did put on the A category, just the next perk after the S perks, as a very very very strong perk.
The reasons? Exactly for what i said. Yes it helps newer players to know the pallet spawns, but it also helps everyone to know the pallets that have been thrown and destroyed already. You get chased, go into a loop tile that you know it spawns a pallet, but guess what? it was used already and the killer hits you. If you were wounded already then you go down and hooked, a mistake that knowing the pallet situation beforehand you could have prevented and extended the chase.
WoO is borderline overpowered and needs nerfs.
I'd like to take this moment to complain. Not at you, but at the game design or at least the way the balance of the game is perceived.
Solo queue is the worst. RNG and nonsensical possibly broken SBMM sticks us with who knows who for teammates. I die because my team performed poorly, that's on all of us for playing poorly as a team. So there's a perk like WoO that helps you play around the shortcomings of the RNG teammates you're stuck with. Did they use up all the pallets in an area? Did they create a dead zone? Well, at least I know so I don't run there and go down in two seconds.
Except that having a way to avoid losing a chase two seconds into it when your teammates are awful or selfish is game-breaking because the game is basically designed around your teammates getting you killed. "Your teammates need to play better." I can't control what my random solo queue teammates do, I can't even influence them. I can point or motion "come on," and my teammates will get obstinate and do something suicidal because they're mad I won't follow their lead.
Solo queue is doomed to always be the most miserable experience. We're supposed to play like a team to win because it's 1v4, but no one plays like a team because it's only your own escape that matters, everyone else can die and it's not your problem. And when you die you get to move on to a new match, the teammates you leave behind still aren't your problem. They never are or were.
In other games people win as a team or lose as a team. Not here. So someone can play in a way that screws over the entire rest of their team and profit from it. Like throwing down half the pallets on the map in the first 60 seconds of the trial. Even if there are pallets left, good luck to the other three players who need them.
What's the point of having resources on the map if you can't find them and use them? I run to a tile that's spawned a pallet every other time I've played on this map and this time it's not there because RNG, that just feels like the game gave me the middle finger. I managed to get that far without going down due to controller input issues or getting stuck on the environment or life-ending frame drops, I beat the odds and reached that tile but it doesn't even matter because there's no resource there, I'm going down. Plus, the skill of chase includes guessing what your solo queue teammates did while being chased rather than just effective use of resources when you yourself are in a chase.
I long ago stopped being surprised when I play killer and I walk up to a survivor and they don't even bother to run. Solo queue has lost the will to fight when they have to fight against killers and map RNG and teammates.
Congrats and sorry to anyone who bothered to read me venting here. That's all it is, venting. I don't even run WoO myself anymore, because I have other perks I like running and the yellow auras are rather annoying. Plus, hey, my team wasted the pallet, so if I die because I can't find resources my absence will be my team's problem as well, right? (It's certainly not my problem, I'm gone and moved on.) Though, I am considering running WoO again what with all the changes to the maps, because I can't figure out what is going on with some of these tiles.
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@doobiedo said:
1
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3820192#Comment_3820192
You must be really low mmr. Actually its only posts like yours that make me think mmr is not actually a myth in this game.
I was only saying that it really sucks OP had such a string of bad matches. We're told MMR is based on dying vs escaping through the exit gate, it doesn't matter how well or how poorly OP may have played in the matches, the simple fact they kept dying should, according to BHVR, lower their MMR and put them in a match from which they'll escape. So why didn't that happen? What is going on with BHVR's SBMM? Because even dying 25 times in a row shouldn't happen. Not if BHVR wants people to keep playing survivor, anyway.
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Hex totems? You mean those glorious glowing bone-shaped Bloodpoints?
Yeah, I'm taking those.
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3818661#Comment_3818661
Dang, your comments always made me read with anticipation, but now you got my full on attention :D Yeah, non-Naughty Bear Trapper and Wraith are so uninspired and boring, they should be changed out ASAP! What a disgrace AND disrespect!
My favorite mori is Pyramid Head: not only is he my main, but his mori is REALLY cool and many seem surprised when they see it, being so used to the quick and dirty 1s punishment mori.
Your problem seems to be an overtly identification with your ingame avatar, thus you feel humiliated and threated as just a hunk of meat, not as a person. There lies your problem: most players see the act of mori-ing the survivor just as a fun little interaction, not something that would (or ever should) bleed into the real world.
If you try to detach yourself from the idea the killer is doing his to you (and thus disempowering and humiliating you), then you might even enjoy the spectacle for what it is: a homage to the horror and slasher movies of the 70s and 80s, where brutal killing scenes where the Raison d'etre was the fun shock value, and not that the viewer identified with the person on screen and relieving their nightmare.
BTW, I am a fair killer: I try to kill all four and am often successful. Cheers :)
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/8EPJT59MKWA6/20241016031936-1.jpg
Thanks! Nice to see you, too :)
My favorite mori is Pyramid Head
Pyramid Head is definitely one of the best moris in the game. Pinhead, too.
Your problem seems to be an overtly identification with your ingame avatar
Exactly. Talking to OP, their problem seems to be a combination of that— taking things that happen in the game too personally—and also not liking that moris change the gameplay loop. The ability to deny the third hook is gone, so survivors need to adapt and throw their resources into denying the first two hooks. OP gave examples of dying to moris against seemingly friendly killers, which becomes a matter of perspective (the killer let me get some points before killing me vs the killer pretended he was going to let me go and then killed me) and/or survivors not keeping their guards up when they should.
I know it's hard for people not to take things personally, it is natural, but as an elimination game everything in DbD is going to feel like a personal attack if someone lets it affect them. In some cases, perhaps the player needs to stop choosing a character they identify with and choose a character who is wildly different, maybe that would help some people create distance between themselves and what happens in the game.
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... but did you try playing the lute?
Seriously though, I really don't understand what SBMM is doing if it's not moving players into a bracket where they escape at least occasionally. 50 losses makes no sense. (Edited to clearly say what I mean.)
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Yeah, not really comparable…
If we're going to stick with a card game, it'd be more like Magic: The Gathering (it's not really like MTG or probably any other card game, but relatively speaking DbD is more like MTG than like poker). And doesn't MTG have OP cards that have been banned from tournaments?
Poker's complexity isn't in the card deck, it's in the psychological tactics used against your opponents.
Edit: I guess I should point out before this has the chance to become a point of contention that MTG has a much more rigorous testing process before releasing cards. Because they print cards. BHVR makes changes and releases them into the wild because it's digital, they can watch what happens and make changes as necessary. So players complaining is actually part of BHVR's process.
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@smurf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3820100#Comment_3820100
I think you're right that BHVR should disencentivise tunneling. Otherwise people will keep doing it because it's almost guaranteed to secure one kill. Though, if the survivor loops well enough, tunneling can take away gen pressure, making it harder to get a 3k or 4k.
Personally, I do think tunneling is a problem because it directly makes the experience of one player worse. It might not be intended that way by the killer, but it will generally have that effect. I agree with what you said though, sometimes it's not easy to tell which Dwight you're chasing :/
And people can argue that if survivors bm the killer, why shouldn't the killer do it back? Which I'd honestly agree with; if someone teabags you at each pallet, they're actively trying to get on the killer's nerves. Anyway, not sure what the solution would be, but I do think tunneling causes more negatives for the community than positives, and is something BHVR should discourage.
I certainly don't enjoy being tunneled as survivor. Sometimes I'm good enough in chase the killer will give up, but usually not. I also don't tunnel as killer unless I need the win for some reason, because I don't enjoy tunneling and don't care about killing. When I play killer, I often feel bad if I kill just one person (usually by accident because their teammates left them to die) not because I did poorly but because I know how much it sucks to be that one person.
The existence of tunneling makes this game less fun. I try to avoid complaining that killers use the tactic, because when done properly it is often the best play, but I will complain that the game design makes it a much more effective tactic than spreading the love.
So often, the recommended course of action by players is "punish the killer for tunneling." But if we look at the win condition as getting a kill, then there's no punishment that's going to overshadow that. Base game mechanics would need to change so that eliminating one player stops being the best way to eliminate all players.
And people can argue that if survivors bm the killer, why shouldn't the killer do it back? Which I'd honestly agree with; if someone teabags you at each pallet, they're actively trying to get on the killer's nerves.
I mostly refuse to chase survivors who teabag unless they put themselves in a bad spot. They usually teabag because they want the killer's attention, they want to be chased, and if they know what they're doing they've positioned themselves in a safe spot. Ignore them and they'll at some point put themeslves out of position, either because they think the killer is scared to chase them or simply because they want to help a teammate, and then they're an easy down. I like to hook them and immediately walk away like they were hardly worth my time lol.
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Well people tunnel to win. So why not do something with that? Give less pips to killers who win by tunneling. And give better pip rewards to killers who don't tunnel.
Pips are not a win. The kill is the win.
And if killers are intentionally tunneling to stay in lower ranks and torment newer/inexperienced players, then you have a legitimate argument for griefing and taking direct action against that account.
That would be incredibly hard to prove unless the player outright admitted to doing it.
The issue is that this is an elimination game. That's its design. Eliminating players is the goal, and as each player is eliminated it weakens the survivor side. Spreading hooks is not the way to win. Spreading hooks is done by people who like playing that way or done by people who just chase who they see and don't care about focus or kills. On lazy days I chase who I see and don't think about it any deeper than that, my memory can't be taxed with things like who's who.
Anyway, you want killers to spread out hooks, you need to reward them for doing so. Gameplay rewards, which means the opposing side somehow gets weaker with each hook state and it's at least if not more rewarding than outright eliminating someone. There's always pushback when that's brought up, "There are perks for that." And so we remain where we are. Spreading out hooks is not optimal.
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@TieBreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3820058#Comment_3820058
I feel like if BHVR can address some of the biggest complaints that players collectively have, such as gen speeds, hard tunneling, bad matchmaking, excessive slugging or excessive hiding, then players will be less likely to give up when negative situations occur.
Killers that hard tunnel a survivor have often been gen rushed in the previous match. Survivors that DC have often been hard tunneled in their last match and just give up.
I like the system change to 2v8, where gen speeds will rubberband depending on how the match is going. That alone will make matches more bearable for many players. I'd love to see more changes like this, that don't impact a balanced match, but help sand the edges off of a bad one.
I think BHVR can find ways to deal with the worst situations, whilst keeping player agency intact. The gen speed mechanic is a really good start.
Hard to say. It's possible those changes will help.
Whatever changes they make, I think BHVR needs to convince solo survivors to care about their random teammates again. Because I've seen a lot of people reach this point of, "My teammates don't care about me, so I no longer care about my teammates." That means when a singular person does well they leave their teammates to die, and when a singular person finds themself on the hook they have no incentive to hold out to help their teammates. It used to be someone being camped or tunneled would keep the killer busy which would help their teammates escape. Many solo survivors no longer feel that camaraderie. That's the mindset that best explains survivors giving up when a team victory is imminent: history has taught them "team" won't apply to them, so they might as well leave sooner rather than later. The game mostly rewards their teammates, not them, if they're a team player after that point.
It'll probably be a lot easier to fix this issue if it is a problem with balancing rather than the gradual cumulative destruction of players' mindsets, so hopefully this isn't deeply entrenched and some numbers tweaks and come-back mechanics can help the issue. It could certainly help if people believe there's a possibility of bouncing back when things look bleak. But it may be more difficult to convince survivors that bouncing back includes them and doesn't only apply to their teammates, or to get them to once again care about their teammates.
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Game designers think in terms of how they want players to play their game. Ever write a paragraph and miss a bunch of spelling and grammar mistakes, and those same mistakes are glaringly obvious to other people? It's along the same lines. Players see the game from a different perspective.
Yes, it's kind of crazy to see Endurance get changed and in the PTB people were able to stack half a dozen Endurance procs on top of each other… but at least that didn't go live.
It's not uncommon for designers to ask for feedback. In the end, how much that feedback is taken into account is up to the designers. They still make the decisions in the end. If the game is actually designed by committee and by popular vote, then that would indeed be terrible, as outsiders can often pinpoint that something is a problem but not necessarily how to fix said problem.
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@TieBreaker said:
Ratcheting up punishments isn't guaranteed to increase preferred outcomes. Punishment beyond a certain point doesn't tend to yield positive results.
If you actually want real change, you need identify why players are so quick to give up. It's generally solo players who want out after getting downed once. It's not really an issue with SWF players. So what are solo players experiencing that makes them so prone to giving up instantly? If BHVR can identify those things and find suitable remedies, then the problem has the potential to get a lot better.
not really an issue with SWF players
1v4
So what are solo players experiencing that makes them so prone to giving up instantly?
1v1v1v1v1
If BHVR can identify those things and find suitable remedies
By BHVR's own design: "Survive Together… Or Not - Survivors can either cooperate with the others or be selfish."
The problem is BHVR holds "Player Agency" in high importance. There's no way to make DbD fun for everyone when it's designed to allow both playstyles.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3820038#Comment_3820038
I think BHVR is trying to figure out if there really is a massive percentage of people that want 4.4 Trickster back, or if it's just a small group of people spamming complaints about Trickster's rework.
Because if it turns out that the majority of people think 4.6 is better, then we might not need any changes reverted at all.
I like 4.6 Trickster for the sole reason that I'm not great at aiming ranged killers on controller at all (slightly push on analog stick, nothing, slightly push, nothing, slightly push, camera moves a mile), but I sometimes just really want to play Trickster and twirl that bat, so 4.6 lets me play him as an M1 killer. It's a totally personal nonsense reason that has nothing to do with his balance, I accept it's ridiculous, but still… I like him at 4.6. lol
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That's so much… why not revert things in small increments? See if a couple changes have a ripple effect or if more needs to be done rather than doing so much at once?
(I'm still annoyed how so many changes were made to Legion at once. I was never thrilled by Legion's gameplay, but as an M1 killer he should be decent for console… except whiffing takes him out of his power. So poor FPS and controls on previous gen consoles destroy him before survivors even get the opportunity.)
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@CrossTheSholf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3819478#Comment_3819478
Game emphasizes escapes and kills as "winning" nothing else matters
If nothing else matters, then survivors are going to keep quitting the moment they think they're not escaping because what's the point if that's the only thing that matters. So, I mean, that's fine, just… people need to understand the game's design encourages players to give up, so we should accept that part of winning is destroying the resolve of your opponents: you win because they stop fighting. Rather than a standard PvP game, DbD is teaching The Art of War.
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@jamally093 said:
Before you say "Well it's the meta it's the best perks to use" yeah but it's not fun when I have to face the meta all the time when choas shuffle was out I just played that before I knew the meta wasn't showing up plus isn't choas shuffle also supposed to more test killers and survivors with trying new perks and expanding their horizons but guess not. Overall blah blah blah meta is boring to face when you deal with every match and no I don't use the survivor meta because 1. No idea what it is 2. I prefer my meta of perks I feel comfortable with but will sometimes swap them out currently I swapped one perk out with wake up.
Also another thing is something I don't get. A killer will constantly use their power Hillbilly, Nemesis, Trickster, ect. The ones with proper damaging powers and then DC(not promoting it) because they weren't downing survivors fast. A match I had against Trickster ending with him doing bye bye because he wouldn't stop using his power. Sure I was at a safe pallet so I would just vault to the other side and heal up as much as I could but I mean you kinda have to break the pallet or try swinging at that point. It's something I never got why constantly use your power then DC when you can't down anyone.
why constantly use your power then DC when you can't down anyone.
My friend sometimes tries to do my killer dailies (I just let them build up and ignore them for the most part), and he'll go stare at an exit gate mid-match because he's not used to the killer's power and can't get the ritual done. Nothing to do with downs, he could play as an M1 killer and get downs if he wanted, but he has absolutely no interest in downing or hooking, his only goal is finishing the daily ritual.
I've gone against some killers who do nothing but use their power, and they'll struggle and get frustrated and stop playing. I assume they're trying to learn a killer they don't play or they're doing a daily ritual on a killer they don't play. Either one is a sucky experience. Oh, depending on the killer it could also be a Tome challenge. I went against a few very dejected Tricksters during one Tome who I think were ecstatic when a survivor knew what they needed.
Edit: These things are of course not always the case, but they are certainly sometimes the case as to why a killer gets easily frustrated. Certain maps can also make performance issues worse on console, and if you're playing a killer that gets really harmed by performance issues then sometimes you just can't play out the match. Even as survivor I've had matches where I couldn't do anything, I had to beg to die because I could not play. Couldn't hit skill checks, couldn't maneuver while running. I can't imagine what it would be like playing a ranged killer in those conditions; jeez, I'd cry.
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Beast of Prey is on my basic build for every killer. I like it as it is, personally. I use it for the BP boost but the disappearance of the red stain is nice for confusing survivors during chase.
Beast of Prey is rather unique, while it feels like haste is an easy and unremarkable go-to for perks, like aura reads and blocking off gens.
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3819030#Comment_3819030
Thats somehow the only way of how to get value of Blood Warden: bait out the pickup and hook till the last quarter of the collapse timer, then hook and sit back while they all scramble at the door. Every other time I got the perk to work was a rather frustrating affair, with massive travel time to hooks and back, even though I might have gotten 3 downs in the exit gate area.
What if we got the following buff? When downing a survivor in the blocked off exit gate area, they are instantly teleported to a random hook. BOOM! Bloodwarden instantly got more interesting and the killer can actually get value from it, instead of just being left with the sinking feeling of "wow, this could nearly have been a great play. It was SOOO close."
I really hate how basically every survivor is counterplaying Bloodwarden, even though it is in so few games and it is SO hard to get real value out of it. The reason for this is that survivors get basically no downside for their counterplay, safe for very, very few and far appart scenarios were the split second to open the gate hands the killer the down. And that is just sad. Blood Warden could be such a fun perk, but it is counterplayed in 99 / 100 cases without even being in play.
I'd love being able to send survivors straight to a hook. Travel time to a hook, and how there might not be enough hooks close to the exit gates, kills a lot of the value.
I really hate how basically every survivor is counterplaying Bloodwarden
Yup, I pretty much always wait until after the killer gets a survivor on the hook before opening the exit gate. They never have Bloodwarden.
Except recently when I wasn't thinking about it and just opened the gate. I could see the entity blocker without taking a step inside. Seriously, the one time I forget.
And the counter to that is… just don't be near the exit gates. Be somewhere else until the entity blocker goes away. I don't think that particular killer got any kills in the end.
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@Unequalmitten86 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3819478#Comment_3819478
I disagree because there a lot of killers quitting too. With them putting data out like they do they basically said if your not in a SWF your going to lose. Killers are going to win. They post kill rates and yes every killer gets 60% or higher so again discouraging. They need to further explain that kill rates are 1 kill or higher. There are some hard pressed killers that strive for the 4K not realizing a 1K is a win. About 90% of all killers tunnel, camp, or slug. When a player is forced in this situation they don't want to continue.
Also to back up your comment a survivor will get more points for running a killer rather than unhooking, healing, and doing gens. So if you die in game and ran the killer you get more points than actual objectives. Then there is the hider that did nothing and pulls the gate and escapes they get more points too.
Also subtle hacks are more and more. There is a multitude of reasons why. I just feel the game itself is not in a healthy state and players are mostly to blame but when it comes down to a lesser player count the are going to let players do what they want.
I disagree because there a lot of killers quitting too.
Must be a region or MMR thing. I very rarely experience this. Survivors quitting is common, though.
there is the hider that did nothing and pulls the gate and escapes they get more points too.
This is behavior I see a lot and it's a big reason I play DbD less. Matches aren't worth playing out if someone's not participating, and it's frustrating how much they're rewarded for not participating with that big escape reward. Which is part of why I believe escape is way too highly rewarded.
the game itself is not in a healthy state and players are mostly to blame
Players play how the game directs/allows them. Part of game design is watching how players behave and adjusting the game accordingly. Easier in a PvE game than PvP, I'm sure, but still necessary. Risk is the fun part of a video game, for instance, but if it's not highly incentivized then many players will take the safer route. The game designers have to prevent that or at least make playing safe much less rewarding. Like hiding while their three teammates die and waiting for the hatch: this shouldn't be possible much less rewarded. BHVR needs to decide if this is a 1v4 or a 1v1v1v1v1 and design accordingly, because it can't be both and be fun for the majority. But maybe that's off-topic.
In general, all players need to feel like a match is worth playing out even if a personal win isn't guaranteed. This game does a poor job of that. Bloodpoints are part of it but not the whole story. For example, being a hero and giving your own life to save someone in the end game collapse, the game still only says "SACRIFICED" on the end screen and you sacrificed emblem points, Bloodpoints, MMR, and your win condition for someone else. Die early doing nothing or die later having been an awesome teammate, the game treats it all the same, and Bloodpoints might be a motivator for some but they're not for everyone.
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Had a discussion about this in a different thread. I'll sum up what I said there: the problem is that the game places too much emphasis on escape. The more emphasis placed on escape, the more likely someone is to give up the moment they think it's not in their future. The game doesn't do a good job of rewarding participation or helping your team. If the player thinks they're going to help their team survive only to be left behind, they'd often rather just leave now rather than later. In this game, the big difference between dying early and dying later is how frustrating it feels to die later, getting all that way into a match and then not reaping the reward. Because escape is highly rewarded.
The game feels punishing to a lot of people. They get discouraged. Punishing them more is going to lead to more obstinate behavior. People who behave poorly in ideal situations may require punishment to adjust their behavior. Punishing people who are already in a negative situation is not going to lead to a positive outcome.
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@smurf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3819430#Comment_3819430
Yeah, I mean Pyramid Head's quick chopping with his sword fits that description of being the end of the struggle. But the struggle to stay alive wouldn't reasonably end just because the killer knocks you down, hence the wiggling on the killer's shoulder and struggling on hook until the last moment. Some moris show scenarios where the survivor would be expected to keep fighting.
Also, Wraith pats are almost funny! Boop boop boop!
Don't get me wrong, I don't think moris are generally used by people to intentionally make someone's experience worse, so I wouldn't say they're toxic.
But I do think it's unfair to people playing as survivors to give the killer a basekit ability that denies them the ability to participate in something they have to watch happen in a game they're playing in. I'd probably find moris more palatable if there were a struggle involved that I could participate in until the end. Honestly, I don't find them interesting at all because there's no way for me to be involved. Just take me to the endgame screen if I can't be part of it.
Having said that, your opinions are totally valid too :D
Boop boop boop!
lol that's going to play in my head next time Wraith moris me.
I don't find them interesting at all because there's no way for me to be involved. Just take me to the endgame screen if I can't be part of it.
I can see where you're coming from with this.
I think BHVR's decision of what to do with moris comes down to something that has nothing to do with our conversation whatsoever: sales. Just like people can't disable cosmetics (I've seen it requested, and the one thing I'd argue for there is that Yui's tails cosmetic can sometimes tank the game's performance), there are cosmetics with moris attached (and the possibility for future individual moris in the store) and so BHVR wants to increase rather than decrease the visibility of killer moris.
I have no issue with a survivor wanting to skip past the animation for dying on the hook or dying to the mori. If you play DbD a lot, it becomes repetitive. To me, it's like when you want to button-mash past a cinematic in a video game on a replay. You've seen it, and if it's not interesting to you there's no reason to sit through it again. I find choose-your-own-path cinematic games rather difficult to replay for that reason: most of it is recycled content that can't be skipped.
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@smurf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3819439#Comment_3819439
I always thought the smoke on hook/floating into the sky was loading time for the post game screens...
The smoke from dying on the hook often causes my PS4 Pro's fans to go into jet engine mode. It's awful. The smoke and particle VFX in this game are not optimized.
Not sure if that's relevant, but if it's doing that and loading the post game screens it seems poorly done.
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I wish BHVR had named the four-man role "Sacrifice" instead of "Survivor." So that there'd be an appreciation for the simple act of surviving, that players would understand surviving is not the expected outcome but is them overcoming. It's not necessary to do damage to the killer for a win: it's the simple act of escaping that's the win. Instead, there's this sense that survival is expected.
It's the difference between watching a movie where the people are fighting off the killer out in the free world and a movie where they are imprisoned and struggle to survive and escape. All the "survivors" in DbD are actually prisoners. You escape the pit of monsters, it's a great accomplishment. (And then of course the person who escaped gets thrown back into the pit… just like the Entity sticks everyone back at the campfire and into another trial.)
When it comes to the finisher mori, what kind of animation is it people would prefer? Turning into smoke on the hook is super boring, that's not a fun end to a match. So then what would be preferred as the end-match animation?
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@smurf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3819374#Comment_3819374
I agree that it's ideal if someone can separate their feelings from games they play, but I imagine a lot of people aren't going to be able to do that as much as others. If someone gets tunneled or slugged for 4k, that can result in the player wondering why they even went into the match.
Having said that, I don't think moris are toxic in the sense that the players using them always intend to make the match worse for the survivors. But I do feel that moris take away any sense of fighting back that survivors have. I personally hate the sense of helplessness they instill because the survivors just sit there and get killed.
I think moris take away the sense of struggle for life that's present in horror and is really part of being human. That struggle is there while survivors are being carried or on hook. In that sense, I see where op is coming from. I know some people will say you fight the mori by running in chase or hiding, but I think all that agency is removed once the mori starts, and that feels wrong to me. I'd support a struggle bar to interrupt moris similar to struggling while being carried, maybe even a competitive one where the killer and survivor get to compete with skill checks.
I imagine a lot of people aren't going to be able to do that as much as others.
It's a skill that can be learned. It comes through self-awareness and working on oneself. Empathy isn't necessarily innate but is something learned (studies have shown people who read fiction are more empathetic, it has to do with experiencing life through different lenses).
Part of emotional intelligence is understanding that your feelings are not the only ones in play, and you don't know the motivations or feelings of the other person. In a video game, it's best to assume the other person is simply playing the game. Yes, there are some people who don't slug because their sense of empathy says it's mean to slug someone, they feel bad for doing it. But other people don't see it that way, they see it as a natural part of the game, and keeping that context in mind helps people not take things personally.
If someone gets tunneled or slugged for 4k, that can result in the player wondering why they even went into the match.
That's fair, no one likes feeling their time was wasted. That's frustration with the game mechanics and game design and still not something that should be taken personally. Frustration with DbD is normal, even expected, and anyone who's feeling it should take a break from the game. I take many breaks from DbD. It can be draining dealing with all the problems in the game, and that includes bugs and performance issues, everything just all adds up into a frustrating experience, and everyone should take breaks.
I think moris take away the sense of struggle for life that's present in horror and is really part of being human.
Horror is about fear. Some people will feel a sense of fear and tension while being chased or hiding. That is part of some horror. But there's also horror that focuses on helplessness and the complete loss of hope. Horror comes in many forms, and what type of horror you prefer and what elements of horror you prefer are personal preference. Not that I think moris necessarily fall into the latter category of horror due to complete helplessness. The struggle to stay alive is what happens while being chased and hiding and helping teammates. The mori is the brutal kill when the killer has won. That's a basic part of horror. The prey fights, they lose, they die horribly. Once that first fatal blow lands it's over and the audience is just watching the spectacle of it. That's the same thing as a mori. The struggle has ended, this is the end. It's a bit drawn out to give the audience a show, but it is the end. (I will stress I'm talking about fiction and horror tropes, here.)
The survivor is able to wiggle on the killer's should and struggle on the hook because it's not the end. The mori is less than 15 seconds long, it's an extended entity-taking-you-into-the-sky animation but (usually, cough Wraith cough) more interesting. When a mori is in play, the survivor has a warning in terms of the hidden offering, so it's up to the survivors to play around it, putting their effort into denying the first and second hooks with the understanding that there won't be a third chance. The rules of the game change, like playing around a killer's power (especially for example Pyramid Head and Sadako, but in general all killers have differences and require different styles of play from survivors).
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@Phantom_ said:
While I understand the point, I don't think doing something negative to negate something negative is going to bring about something positive.
I've seen some survivors do this and found out that in some cases a teammate was AFK-ing almost the entire match. Or when at the start of a trial a survivor DC's and the others want to go next asap. Do I think that it's right? No. Do I understand them? Yes.
I'm above slugging someone and wasting all of our time. What I prefer to do is let that survivor go next and go easy on the remaining 3, and just have fun. I do not care for getting 4Ks every single match, have better things to worry about in my life than a video game.
a teammate was AFK-ing almost the entire match
This is usually the reason I'll want out of a match as survivor. And I've seen it when playing killer as well, survivors will want out and then I'll discover someone was AFK and it's like, "Well, that explains that."
I'll also ask to leave if my teammates are griefing me. Doing things like throwing down pallets near me and vaulting over them and body blocking me next to a gen. It often happens when someone has a flashlight, but sometimes they're mad because I cleansed bones or something. A killer slugging me because I'm being griefed by my teammates isn't going to magically fix the situation and make me want to play. It's just reinforcing that yes, I'd rather bleed to death and leave the match than play this out.