Talmeer
Talmeer
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- Talmeer
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@Mister_xD said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/701992#Comment_701992
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8006FDP4Iw8
he represents the communities opinion on old legion pretty well.
id recommend you watching this.
also, you love to mention this "counterplay" he had that no one here understands, yet you never decide to actually tell us what this "counterplay" is in the first place.
due to that i'll just have to assume you dont know any counterplay yourself, but pretend that "skilled players know the counterplay" to be able to just tell everyone here who says they in fact had no counterplay they just need to get better at the game and the killer was balanced.
I gave you the advice to either search in my comment history for it, or to search on YouTube.
I know my english is bad, but it is not that bad.
You don't like to do it. What does that say about you? You don't like to spend any effort into it and you have already made your opinion.
So... why exactly I should now write a tutorial for you (something that would cost me 15-20 minutes)?
So, that you can say me at the end, that this was only possible against bad Legions, or that the things I write were impossible?
Sorry, but I know already the most sorts of player types. This is not the first year of me in the internet, or in a game in the internet.
You have your opinion and you will stay by it.
You have for sure also not watch the videos, linked by Null3pec and Mookywolf and if you have, you have for sure already some sentence ready, that keeps you in your comfort zone.
And what your video matters, so I have not the same opinion like that guy. Maybe because I have made other experiences.
I have a friend that was a survivor main and I have very often read my endgame chat and after my experience:
-there are people also in the game who like the stealth part.
-that have enjoy the chases against the Legion
And I have read that countless times, because I could read my endgame chat most of the time.
The most time, he was either silent, friendly or happy. Only a handful of times I had a toxic endgame chat.
So... I could really read what the people think, that have play against me as a Legion main and they were either happy, or friendly.
Imo, he takes himself to important, if he thinks that he speaks for the community and I don't mean that on a bad way, but he has for sure not talk for the people in my endgame chat as example and I was only 1 Legion main.
There were more as me out there in the times back then, even if the Legion population is maybe pretty low now - I don't know.
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@NullSp3c said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/702070#Comment_702070
I'm not German, I'm from Portugal so I only know english and portuguese so I don't know those bands.
"I have talk to both of you about your videos in multiple postings, but I have also always quoted you guys then :)."
I don't understand clearly what you said, so my reading is "I already talked about both videos in other discussions and mentioned you in them"
Sorry if this is rude btw.
No it isn't. To read and understand my english is for sure sometimes the purest torture :).
I just mean, I have write 1 posting towards you in that I have also quoted you and I have write 1 posting towards Mookywolf in that I have also quoted him/her.
What your video matters so, I have say that I will watch it and I don't think that I have anything say about, besides the music. What the content matters, so it was a good and short video.
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I have talk to both of you about your videos in multiple postings, but I have also always quoted you guys then :).
sighs Sorry, my english is just sometimes not what I would call good :|.
Btw. should you also speak german, I bet the Band "Eisregen" would also be something for you. Their songs "Scharlachrotes Kleid" and "Zeit zu spielen", can also remember you a bit on the Legion.
Even, imo, the Legion song for me is "Sepultura - Bloody Roots".
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@Mookywolf said:
posting the video that @Talmeer is talking about. i think at least.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wq_XsIz8c1A&t=868s
but also posting this cause there were definitely certain things that were not ok about old school legion.
Yes, you are right Mookywolf.
Thank you for searching, even I am not sure if the guys here are really interested in it.
They seem to me more the sort of people that like to stay in their comfort zone and search the faults always by others.
What the second video matters - I have not watch it yet, but if the whole Legion situation has something good, then that the exploiters got banned.
That is my opinion to that. I will watch the video later.
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@NullSp3c said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/701929#Comment_701929
While reading these following statements, ignore Frank's mixtape and exploits, which must've been what devs needed to change and deal with.
Legion was the second killer from the bottom in the kill rate statistic, that means something. It means that if he wanted to down you, he would but took a lot of time, which means big chase, which also means that the survivor could do something against it.
I said " if he wanted to down you he would, but took a lot of time" and you can say "Thats what made him unfun". My counter argument to that is: that happens with every single killer, having bloodlust, entity blockers and 1 chase perk you can pretty much down someone if you like, but again, you lose a lot of time.
The thing is that people didn't know how to counter Legion, he had a different way to be dealt with, pretty much like the nurse, he had a completely different chase style.
I'll give you some counters to OLD Legion:
- Use a flashlight if you want (optional)
- NEVER EVER camp at pallets waiting for Legion to break it, remember that he is recovering and waiting to vault and hit you. If that bad boy doesn't break the pallet and is waiting for the power to come back, run to another and try to hit him.
- If you don't hit Legion with a pallet or you vault a window and see him vaulting too, vault back, Legions usually miss that hit because when they vault they get pushed forward. Same for windows.
Remember that Legion doesn't see scratch marks so you can play with your blood to make him track in the wrong direction. Ex: Killer shack. Situation: God pallet dropped, Legion is waiting for the power to recover in the inside and you are outside.
If you know how to counterplay them, you would get away from the pallet. You see him vaulting away and you have that distance that you gained from running away a lil bit. Run to the back of the shack and hide in the right corner (on the left there are lockers and the window). Legion can't see scratch marks so you can run away on that brief second that he is searching where you went to get away and his power is almost running out in that moment.
There are many more ways.
Of course all of this needs skill to perform.
Watch this video for further understanding.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMtRRTvmYpM
Now, I just think that he needed buffs on spreading hits and the power gauge shouldn't stop when vaulting. It's another way to counterplay him. OR bhvr can bring him more counterplay through the miss hits mechanic.
Your good will to give them tips is admirable NullSp3c.
But I am afraid, it is a waste of time. They will for sure come with excuses for them self, like "that were only possible towards bad Legions, that was impossible!" and so on.
I know those type of players.
They will never learn and stay by their opinion, no matter what.
They could have been witnesses of a counterplay situation in dbd and would still either denie it, or blame it on the killer. Just so that they can tell themself longer, that it is not their fault and that they can stay still in their comfort zone -_-.
Anyways, time to watch your linked video^^.
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@Mister_xD said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/701901#Comment_701901
the only "counter play" legion had was "dont heal and rush the gens so we can get out of here asap", since you had literally no chance once the killer spotted you or someone else around your location.
old legion was a terribly designed killer, you couldnt avoid them and you couldnt beat them in a chase, all you could do was rush your objective and escape asap, since it took them so long to catch a survivor - and i wouldnt really consider that to be "counter play", since you couldnt do anything against the killer themselve.
thats also why they are considered to have no counterplay (cause there is none), but had such a small kill ratio (cause they were so slow at catching survivors and no one wanted to stick around in your game, so they eigther DCed or rushed gens and left immediately).
fact is: if you could not catch someone with old legion, you wouldnt have been able to catch them with anyone else. if you struggled in chases with legion, you really need to improve at this game and git gud.
and this comes from a killer main btw.
Yeah and I am a survivor main btw. :).
Sorry... I needed to say that. It is just a not necessary comment imo and just for being clear, I was not a survivor main.
Should you ever think that you are maybe were wrong, you can maybe start listen to the people who have know it, aka. the Legion mains and/or search on YouTube.
Must be for you a special moment if you see there finaly survivors in a chase that were able to avoid being hitten more as a maximum of 1 time (op addons not counted in).
Btw. many survs rush the gens. Not important which killer they face, if I can believe those forums. I mean there are a ton of "gen rush" threads out there. That has gone a bit down because of the dlc release I think, but I am sure they will rise again^^.
Btw., imo the Legion was a very good killerdesign. It was a design that has talk to a totally new type of player. Not every dbd killer can say that about him self and something like that is always good, because it brings new players in the game.
What the nerf cryers matters - they stay anyways in the game. If you don't believe, just read the nerf threads of other killers. They have after the Legion just shift over to the next "nerf killer x" threads and so it will go on and on. They will never be able to do more, as to complain in the forums, but they will stay in the game.
Besides, some of them were pretty toxic. They were even ok with dcs and have sometimes encourage other players to do it. If you ask me, they should have been banned, exactly like the exploiting Legions, because dcing is also a reason to leave a game for other people, exactly like exploiting.
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You can either:
-Search on YouTube and find it in an better english explained as mine and additional with pictures to it.
-Search in my comment history if you like to get the same, just then with a english like mine explained.
And sorry no. I don't waste time on people, that not really like to get help.
I have help survivors somtimes in the endgame chat in dbd, because there I had made jokes with them together and know that they were really interested in getting better.
My experience with this forums are that the opposite side of your argument is not interested in getting better.
This side is mostly interested in crying. Over and over again and if they have a bad experience, it is because "the others". Never themselfs.
I am sorry for the case that I put you in the wrong drawer, but I am just done with it, after staying months in those forums and reading the same crap over and over again, while survivors in the game just have done it.
And thats also why I see survivors in this forums and in the game differently.
The one crying and saying "that is not possible!!!!1111" and the others just do it.
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@alienschmalien said:
Old Feral Frenzy had no counterplay. You were going to get hit. Then you'd probably get tunneled down with a multi hit ability because they had a way to down you with the ability, which in itself was not only annoying, but not even good killer design, because you were taking 3 or so hits to do something you could do in two or even one on a lot of killers.
And sometimes if you were really ''lucky" you'd get the moonwalking ######### who'd just walk backwards from you to make it so you weren't in a chase and get downed anyways.
It was bad design through and through for everyone involved.
New Feral Frenzy is still annoying, but there's many ways (too many maybe?) to break a Legion out of it.
You can tell that lie a thousand times.
But as long Legion mains and survivors exist who remember the counterplay, as long as YouTube videos are up that show the counterplay and as long as the Legion holds one of the worst killrates (if I remember correctly only the Clown was worse), you and everybody who tells those lies is proven wrong.
Thats where personal faith hits the reality.
Edit: And as a pre patch Legion main I honestly don't know how you were able to put 3+ knife hits on a single survivor in just one frenzy? (if your target was not totally potato - or afk)
Sure that we here still speak about the Legion and not the Legion with something like Franks Mixtape attached?
Edit²: I say that, because then I could understand it, but then we would also speak about totally different Legion.
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@PolarBear said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/701888#Comment_701888
So what is the counterplay then? If a legion keeps using their power and hitting you until your deep wounds timer runs out, how do you consistently avoid it?
I have write it down here in the forums alone... a feelend dozend times. If not more.
And I am honestly tired from it. If you really like to know how the counterplay was for a dead killer (thats how I call the Legion now), you can search on YouTube for tutorial videos.
On one good tutorial video I can remember from a guy named "Montos, Monos" or something like that.
He had show the counterplay on 3 Legions and 2 of them have also make some mistakes, but that is not bad for people that like to learn something.
Imo, you can best learn from videos like the one I mentioned as from videos where every survivor and killer plays just perfect in time. Because then they are to fast, as that you could realize what they do.
Edit: So just search there with something like "how to counterplay the Legion".
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@PolarBear said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/701874#Comment_701874
Once The Legion activated their power you could not avoid them. Fact.
The killer did not have counterplay.
Even if Legion had a low kill % it doesn't mean he had counterplay. He was just a bad killer.
Ok, let me take you serious for a moment...
"Once The Legion activated their power you could not avoid them."
Ok, ok... Why then could survivors avoid being caught and why they could leave the hook area uncaught?
I mean that must have happen, otherwise they would die on a hook and some after a chase thx to the moris.
Actual there was a counterplay. Every Legion who had play in high ranks could tell you that.
In low ranks I have not so often see it and it was maybe too much for a rank20, but in higher ranks you have definitely see it (if not, you can call yourself lucky, even if I would have a hard time to believe it).
Don't get me wrong. I don't blame you, that you haven't done it. You know... As example I was very bad with the Clown and Hillbilly.
But here is the difference - I don't blame the Clown or Hillbilly for it. I know that I was bad with them, because I was too bad, to have success with them (killers like Legion, Meyers, Nurse, Trapper were more my successful killers).
Edit: TL:DR We all have our weaknesses. Either because we are really to bad for something, or because we give already up, right at the start with sentences like "there is no counterplay".
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@PolarBear said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/701807#Comment_701807
Most other killers have counterplay that Legion didn't have. You knew, that no matter what you did, you would always get downed. That is why it was unfun.
The Legion had counterplay, but I am so tired of telling that over and over again survivors who have in writing nerf-threads a 10, while doing counterplay a -10.
As you survivors like to say "git gud" and watch some tutorial videos on YouTube.
And if you need additional evidence - the Legion had one of the worst kill-rates to pre patch times. That is not my opinion, that is fact, made on a official statistic posted by bhvr.
A killer without counterplay would have not a bad killrate. That should everybody with common sense understand.
What the topic matters. Yes I wish me also the old Legion back. Sort of.
I would prefer a old Legion without exploits and without op addons, but I am already so desperate after all the months were bhvr just has shown inactivity towards their Legion community, that I would even take that Legion back.
Somewhere they have for sure flying a backup around, at least I hope so.
Then I can at least have fun again if I play the Legion without addons and that implies also that I would play dbd again.
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@Speshul_Kitten said:
Mine was when Ash’s perks were changed. The other was when Infectious Fright got nerfed before release 😪
When you got tricked on a way, you haven't ever seen from another company. To keep it short.
Even if you like me, still can remember the days were people have bought games on 3'5 computer disks.
That didn't had happen often, still 1 time should be already enough (and was it).
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@TheBean said:
If you got under 100 hours don't mark your profile private / friends only in Steam.
I don't care if you are playing SWF.. cause allot of times people put it private and leave their friends list up so I can still see if you are in a SWF. Or your friend hasn't marked their friends list private and I can still see you are grouped up.
I'll most likely go after your 1K hour friends and not hose you down in the match.
I might use you as bait, but I will rather let you go than the higher hour / skilled players.
And yes... After 3K hours, I do check profiles... For this exact reason.
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Some of us killers playing in the low ranks are not looking to completely crush you and will let you get some points... but if you go private... Well... GL.
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For example... Contrary to popular belief... If I see 3 people with hours ranging from 8 to 30 hours in my lobby I'm not gonna play hard against you.
Maybe others feel the same way?
I wouldn't blame players for going private. It can have different reasons.
I as example had a mostly friendly-happy endgame chat. Still I had set my profile privat.
Why did I did that?
Because in the moment I posted something in the steam dbd forums what some people have dislike, they had rush my profile.
I was not offended by it, but I have no time to play 24/7 moderator on my steam page, so the page had go private.
There is a ton of toxicity in dbd (if I can believe the (steam)forums) and also some people like to jump on your steampage, leave crap there, -as would someone care what they have to say^^.
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@johnmwarner said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/699164#Comment_699164
They got the neon high vis one
I am not a fan of this.
1- I like more outfits that look 80s/90s.
2- Makes no sense to wear as killer something with bright colors.
3- That said... If the devs ever fix the Legion and make them again a viable killer that kills his own playerbase not with boredom like the new Legion, I would pay what is necessary for a Susie, like this:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/535969#Comment_535969
I mean... That would be just hilarious, to hunt as this a David or so xD.
Susie needs to have a balloon into her other hand... It calls after her if you listen to the darkness amoungst us... Give her a balloon...
Edit: As best then with the Benny Hill Theme song as chase music :D.
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@Lost_in_the_Fog said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/698143#Comment_698143
So when I first played the game I started as survivor. A killer hit me on hook and I thought it must have scored points or achieved some other purpose. When I started playing killer I did this to survivors because I thought I was supposed to. . . Oops!
The subject of intent has been brought up in several posts. In this circumstance I had no intent of toxicity. I think that's why it's been easier to not jump to the conclusion that a lot of these actions aren't meant as harassment. It does seem that a lot of people jump to the opposite conclusion. That's the whole reason I started this post. To highlight that it's often very unclear what the intent is behind certain actions.
It's been awesome to get to hear so many different perspectives!
I should first say that I was a killer main and have also started dbd as such.
Still with that perspective I had not understand the most things as toxic, that have survivors do, besides a few cases where it was for me clear that it was ment to be toxic.
I was just surprised that hitting someone on a hook is also seen by some people as that.
But, imo, the most people tend to interpret in those things too much as you already said.
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Hitting an survivor on a hook is considered as toxic behavior (not official... but you know by survs)?
I need to admit I have done it 3-4 times I guess...
Well... on the other hand, there are so many rules already made by players, nobody can follow them and still have fun in the game -_-.
Edit: Just out of a mood. Like... "I still got ya!"^^.
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@Atrushan88 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/694476#Comment_694476
The reason the survivor would not have survived old Legion is because one, you're comparing a very short distance, and probably only counting the time you were in Frenzy(in addition, you could actually use your power to kill someone, which likely wasn't intended in the first place). Obviously, in Frenzy, old Legion is faster for the first 6 seconds. New Legion however closes far more distance while in frenzy, because it lasts longer.
As for survivors and killers being treated differently, this is honestly just your imagination. Survivor nerfs happen just as often as killer nerfs. You just don't realize it because you probably don't play survivor at all, or very little, and probably don't even look at the patch notes for survivor nerfs. Just in the past few patches survivors have lost: fast vaults(well not totally lost but a lot more difficult and it basically destroyed a mind game survivors could use against the killer), darker clothing, had loops that are completely pointless made on Springwood, can't see past walls on Coldwind, Mettle of Man nerf, End Game Collapse, and probably a lot more than I can think of. As for killer nerfs we've seen Pig "nerfs"(more of an adjustment that was necessary for a huge survivor nerf), A Ghostface buff and the some nerfs to the buff specifically(nothing made him weaker), and...I think that's it? I'm not saying the devs give preferential treatment to killers either, I'm just showing you that you're wrong about them treating survivors better.
As for the Legion bug, that as far as I'm aware was a thing for a while, and basically made the game unplayable. The Sprint Burst exploit was nowhere near that, and I could still catch people using it, albeit with a slightly longer time frame.
Sry, I see the topic exploits just black and white. Either you are ok with it, or you don't. I am not.
I know about those survivor nerfs, even I have just read them and not see them in the game, because I don't play the game anymore since the Legion patchday. That changes nothing on the situation that the most killers are still not on Spirit's level.
If the devs are ok with the Legion, they should play the killer - best day in and day out - until they realize their mistake. I for my part don't waste my time on a killer that got gutted so far, just so that some survivors are happy now (while others miss the challenge).
Of course, I have only count in the time in frenzy. Frenzy is ment to be a speed boost for the Legion. Otherwise you can directly stop using the abilitie (with the feeled 3 hour stun after frenzy, it would anyways the best advice) and you are ok with it, that they are so slow while they using it? o_O
Just a reminder... The Legion are young adults, not a gang of grandpas/mas.
Either the frenzy speed is at a minimum so fast as from the pre patch Legion, or even faster, or it doesn't matter at all and it is for sure not a buff.
For what are the devs afraid? That the Legion hangs to often in a stun at the end of frenzy? Or that we hit survivors to often with a dw abilitie that is totally useless now compared to the old one?
Imo, frenzy could be buffed without fearing anything. Balancing would first begin after they would do that as a necessary first step. And I know, then the balancing problems would begin, but I know also that countless Legion mains and also sometimes survivors have warn bhvr for exactly this situation and that's why my compassion is limited, what this topic matters.
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@Atrushan88 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/692900#Comment_692900
I disagree that mains of a killer have the overall goal in mind of the game, as I prefer balance over anything regarding killer or survivor, as mains of a killer only play that specific thing and ignore anything from any other side, only to make their side better. They may know a lot about their killer, but they only take their experiences with that killer, rather than the overall game, in my experience. TrueTalent plays all killers pretty much equally, and nowhere did he say Legion was OP, and neither did I. I don't know why you guys keep assuming that I'm saying anything about Legion being strong or weak.
For example, when Pig lost the ability for traps to kill survivors if they had one on their head and it wasn't activated, a few Pig mains were saying that she didn't need that "nerf", but honestly it was more of a clarity issue, and it just would not be fair because of EGC. If you were playing as a survivor during the EGC with a trap on your head(I've had it happen to me), there's not enough time for you to both get the trap off your head and get out the gates if you have the EGC timer running, unless you get extremely lucky. Even if you managed to get it off the first time, if the closest box was too far away, you might forget where the exit gates were. The devs knew what they were doing in that case, because you can STILL have those two timers going if the Pig times it right, and it's brutal and basically a death sentence, but there were Pig mains who were up in arms about this.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/692940#Comment_692940
Not really. If we were only to compare them by their movement while in FF, new Legion moves 50 meters in FF without hitting a survivor. Old Legion moves 31. New Legion is faster in every way, unless we count them by only 6 seconds, but that's not fair to new Legion because new Legion's FF lasts longer, and no one's gonna only run for 6 seconds in most cases. New Legion is faster only slightly however if both are using their FF EVERY TIME it's up, but again, no one is going to use their power off cooldown every time. There will be times they won't use it, or will be moving normally waiting to use their power when they see a survivor. This makes new Legion much faster, because of the base speed increase. However I did say that short bursts old Legion was faster, but for all intents and purposes, and in almost every instance, new Legion is faster. The only difference is it feels slower because the gaps between movement speeds are closer, and the top speed is reduced slightly. In short, the only way Legion is slower is if we give old Legion every advantage he has over new Legion without using anything new Legion has over old Legion. In a fair comparison, new Legion is faster, even if it's only slightly. The best thing to say is that new and old Legion are almost the same speed, with new being slightly faster.
As for all of your other issues, this is personal preference and not related at all to being an actual issue. Honestly if you think about it, it's better for him not to miss because if he misses then he has to commit to the survivor. Unless they WANT him to commit to them, then it's better to let him get the hit if he's closed the gap on them enough. I don't think missing and losing your power is a bad thing, because if you miss a swing, then you're already right up on them and 4 seconds is not that bad when right up on someone, this also means you can down them.
1- The most killers in dbd have a reason to looking only on themselfs, because even for no reason, they are getting nerfed or never buffed.
Imo, the goal should be to put every killer on Spirit level, after everything I have read about her (I don't own her, so I can only build my opinion on what I have read about her).
The Legion nerf was a prime example for this. If we talk about the old Legion, we talk about a killer who had one of the worst kill rates in the whole game and that is not my opinion -> If you like you can search the official statistics to that (I bet they are still somewhere online, maybe even in this forums).
Shortly before the Legion patch, bhvr had post this statistic.
If you think now about that and use your common sense, you would think, that they would have try to buff the Legion, so that she gets similar kill rates as the most other killers -> wrong. We got a patch with a ton of nerfs in exchange of 1 (in letters ->one<-) buff (the faster base movement speed).
It is very, veeery rar that a killer just get buffed, even in the situation we are in (aka. a situation where the most killers are not on Spirit level).
Also, you get sometimes the feeling, that bhvr handles killers and survivors differently.
The Legion is again here a prime example: While some Legions have got their deserved ban for exploiting... Where exactly were the survivor bans for the 2 survivor perk exploits that have follow on the Legion patch?
I have nothing read from a banwave towards them. Have you?
So... Don't judge us killers too hard if we look at first at ourselfs. That's mostly because a desert need first to freeze before we see anything good (symbolically speeching).
2- The old Legion was faster. I had a pretty known situation to me at the patch day that I could very good compare to each other. I had follow a survivor to a nearby loob spot and now the following had happen (I will write it two times, so that also you can see the difference and, ah yes... Both times the Legion had no addons.):
Pre patch Legion situation: I had vault over the pallet with frenzy. Then the survivor would have had a few seconds to either start the little pallet game, or he would have been hitten by me.
My situation with the new Legion on the patch day: I had vault over the pallet with frenzy. Then the survivor had unreachable run away for me while he was just running straight forward.
No pallet game, no further attempt to loop one more time, no nothing.
I had just stay there with a open mouth after that.
Still I had mori him later, since that day was for me my vengeance day, but still... That makes it not better.
This survivor would have never survive against the old Legion in this situation, if he had not do the pallet mini game. That can you believe me.
And that are situations, you can't nowhere read, but that are also situations where Legion mains see that bhvr had at least tryd to trick us and as said before - it hasen't work.
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@Atrushan88 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/691468#Comment_691468
Tell me something. Where have I said anywhere that Legion is "viable"? I have said facts, that is literally all I have stated, and have not argued for or against Legion as a killer. I have not stated anything about Legion's strength or weakness in the game at all. You're just putting words in my mouth. That said..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3UTtzvmezc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1B_mLlQKrw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsOPbQnBreE
I wouldn't say Legion is as bad as you say.
I have not watch those videos yet, since I need to make me ready in a few minutes for bed, but I wouldn't take streamers opinions to highly in dbd, after my experience.
Sometimes the videos look almost as would they have hang with the survivors in a chat and saying to them something like "play extra stupid". Don't know if that is true, but I had watch a lot of Legion op videos in the past, linked by survivors that I have discuss with and sometimes... Wish I had only one time survivors like I have seen in some streamer videos in my matches...
Thats not bad if you like to make a tutorial video on how to play better as killer, or how to do counterplays better as survivor, since everybody can better learn when the whole things happen more slowly as usual in a match, but when someone trys to show his "opness", or the opness of a killer, it gets a bitter taste.
Imo, the people with the best knoweldge about something are the mains of whatever, because they play usually their killer, or survivor perk (as example) multiple times/each day.
Then the devs, since they doing hopefully a lot of testing (maybe? - not sure after the Legion patch).
And then coming the people that sometimes a killer/perk play, for whatever reason (that would be where I would settle the most streamers in if they not main the things they are talking about - then you can push them 2 steps higher on the ladder).
Aaand then coming the people that had never, ever play that killer/perk, if we like to go down the "they knowing how it really is" ladder.
With that, I don't like to say, that "Legion mains" know anything better... I have a great knoweldge about the pre patch Legion and a very bad memory on my testgames on the Legion patch day, but I bet you could me teach some lessons about some survivor perks, since I have only play rarly survivors (guess 70-75% of my gametime was pre patch Legion, then maybe 10% survivors and the rest other killers like Meyers and Clown as example).
Sorry for "intervene" here a bit. I just like to do my part, so that everybody feels ok with the discussion thats going on here.
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@Gamzello said:
Recently I've become more active on the forums, and started getting back into DBD once more. I notice that lots of people were saying to "Nerf Spirit" but I'm completely against that idea.
Instead of nerfing another killer, only to have a few true viable ones and seeing them almost every game, let us discuss the others killers we hardly ever see!
There's lots of other killers that should have that same recognition that deserve the viability that other high tier killers have! As a survivor main, I enjoy having a challenge put against me by all killers. It sucks that after awhile you see a repeat of similar killers in more higher ranks.
Before anybody attacks me, I play both sides but prefer survivor! So please don't bash on me so hard! <3
Anyways, here is what I usually see in my games. I will be giving a short description of each killer, their viability, perks, add ons, average kills I see in MY games, what ranks they're in, and how rare they are. Of course you don't have to agree with me, but this is just the way that I see it.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/435/099B11JNLX5P.png
SS Tier killer:
Nurse's power is broken if you play her really well. Her add ons are really good. Her perks are great. Average can be 2k but if played well a 4k will happen. Can apply some map pressure. Very rare to find.
S Tier killers:
Myers's power is astounding. Very powerful with the right add ons, and perks are decent. You will get a 3-4k for sure. You can find him at any rank, but mainly high or mid rank. He can apply some map pressure. Common to find.
Billy is mobile killer, best to reaching exit gates or generators quickly. His add ons are great, but most of his perks aren't that good. He can get a 3-4k if you play him well. Can apply an insane amount of map pressure. You can find him at any rank. Uncommon to find.
A Tier killers:
Spirit is another very mobile killer, great for mind games. She's one of the few balanced, truly viable killers. Good perks, and very great add ons. If you play her well you can get a 3-4k. Can apply immense amount of map pressure. She is seen at any rank. Common to find.
Hag is another viable killer when you catch a survivor at the right time. Her power is great, she has decent perks, ruin being her best one. Her add ons are great. You can get a 2-3k, but if you play really well a 4k for her. Can apply some map pressure. You can find her more at low-mid ranks. Common to find.
B tier killers:
Wraith is fun to play, but not as viable as the others I mentioned above. None of his perks are usually ever used, or when they are, they are completely rare. His add ons are good. On average, I see Wraiths get 2k or below unless they're really good. Can apply some map pressure. Almost always found in low ranks. Common to find.
Freddy can be viable as well. His perks are decent. His add ons are decent. On average, I'd say they get about 2-3k kills. It's rare to get a 4k as Freddy from what I've seen. As survivor, I was able to ignore his power and still do generations easily, which can be a problem nonetheless for Freddy players. Can apply some map pressure. Found in any rank. Rare to find.
GhostFace can be viable, but he's a stealthy type killer. Usually stealthy type killers (Expect for Myers) don't really have good games, I've noticed that a lot. His perks are great. His add ons are good. The average kills I see GhostFaces get are 1-2k. (Yeah, it's really bad!) His power can be avoided however, which makes him more B tier. He doesn't apply any map pressure. Found in low or mid ranks. Rare to find.
C Tier Killers:
The Clown can be somewhat viable. His perks are good. His add ons are decent. I usually see Clown's get either 2k or 3k. They usually get genrushed to hell in my experience. He can apply to little or none when it comes to map pressure. Found in mid ranks. Rare to find.
Plague is also averagely viable. Her perks are okay. Her add ons are decent. Average is usually a 2k. Depending on the team, a 3-4k can happen. Her power can be very easily ignored, making her more a C-tier type killer. Can also get genrushed badly. Vomit Registration can sometimes not go through. Can apply little to some map pressure. Found in mid ranks. Rare to find.
Trapper is another fun killer to play, but easily counter-able as well making him more of a C tier killer. His perks aren't that great. His add ons are good. On average Trappers can get 1k to 2k. (In higher ranks), however in lower ranks he can get more of a 3-4k. Doesn't apply that much map pressure. Found in lower ranks. Common to find.
The Pig is another stealth killer, her traps can be ignored by high ranked players and still continue doing generators. Her perks are okay. Her add ons are okay. On average I'd say they get about 1-2k. Doesn't apply that much map pressure. Found in mid to low ranks. Uncommon to find.
D Tier killers:
The Doctor is one of those killers that are supposed to make generators hard to do, but does the complete opposite. Sometimes his power doesn't work or do enough. His perks are good. Add ons are okay. On average, they get about 1-2k or less due to genrushing. Found in low ranks. Uncommon to find.
Leatherface may sound like a really good killer, but not really. His stun time makes it worse for him. Has great perks. Okay add ons. On average they get about 1-2k or possible 3k. It's rare to see LF get a 4k in my games since they always get genrushed as well. Found in low and mid ranks. Uncommon to find.
Huntress has a great potential as killer but hit boxes, and delays on console make it so much worse. (I'm so happy devs are going to fix this!) Her perks aren't the best, I never see anyone running them that much. Her add ons are good. On average I'd say they get about 1-2k. She's really easy to loop as well, and usually genrushed. Found in low ranks. Uncommon to find.
Legion was a killer that you either hated or loved. After his rework, I barely saw a Legion. His perks are good. His add ons are okay. On average, Legions get 1-2k. Found in low ranks usually. Very rare to find nowadays.
This is my tier list of killers I've played against, and my personal opinion on them. I've also had my own personal experience with them. The killers I play a lot are: Myers, Trapper, Spirit, Plague, Huntress and The Pig.
I also play on PS4 so some of these results might a lot more different than Xbox or PC. Or maybe just for people overall. By average, I mean different players not people who main these killers by the way!!!
Edit: Fixing some errors, and added some text.
Always nice to read a so well written survivor opinion that not sounds entitled to either the one, or other site.
Had talk with survivors a lot to my times in dbd, but that whas then mostly in the endgame chat and as the nature of chats compared to forums -> the lines written there, were most times shorter as in a forum posting.
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@DBDbuildsYT said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/690686#Comment_690686
You have stated theory, and theory doesn't make legion viable.
You can be viable IN SPITE of legion, if you are extremely good but legion is an indefensible pile of trash.
Show us any video evidence of it being viable or your opinions don't really matter
Well, that is a bit drastically, I guess.
Every opinion matters imo - I just wish sometimes that the people that don't know the Legion first hand would listen more to the people who really know the Legion - aka. the Legion mains.
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I just have the question in mind, if he makes fun to me, or not as a pre patch Legion main and he don't.
I was never much interested in staying in the red ranks, otherwise I would not have let countless survivors go, who had been a guaranteed kill.
The biggest fun killer are for me the new frenzy mechanic. I don't like to be slower and I don't like to stay feeled forever in the frenzy state. So long as the frenzy duration is today, it doesn't feel special anymore imo.
Also the freaking stun for missing hits and the increased stun after frenzy are also fun killers for me on the same level.
If necessary, delete the Legion addons and the dw ability bhvr (and turn it into a pure dmg abilitie instead), but bring back the fun please :(.
How viable a killer is at the end, is less important if you have fun.
The old Legion had one of the worst kill rates of all killers. You can read it in your own statistics bhvr. Still she had make so much more fun as that bad construct he/she is today. No matter if the kill rate today is better - its not worth the price imo.
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@Atrushan88 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/689971#Comment_689971
My point was that if you are chasing someone, they are going to still be leaving scratch marks when you come out of your power. You shouldn't be able to "lose someone" when your power ends. That said, no I haven't played Legion because I don't own them. I would if I could, but I don't have the money for that right now and want to get all the perks I can from the shrine before I buy characters with my iridescent shards considering the cost is insane. I've faced Legions who have hit 3+ survivors multiple times in a match btw, in fact most I have faced have managed.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/689590#Comment_689590
I am pretty sure I showed the math and the numbers. New Legion is still slightly faster. They may feel slower, but they are not. Not by much, sure, but they are still faster, even if it is very little. I don't think it was ever intended to be a straight buff though. After looking back, somehow the math I did is missing. I don't know how, as I was typing it out in the text box. Maybe I deleted it because it was too much information, but I thought I kept it there specifically so no one could be all "bologna! Your math is wrong!". It has to be in one of my messages somewhere...Either way, if you've done the math yourself then you can realize that if Legion is using their power AT EVERY moment they can, they are AT LEAST the same speed, with Legion being slightly faster. Legion however will not use their power AT EVERY OPPORTUNITY, making the base speed increase a bigger buff than you'd think.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/689758#Comment_689758
What does it matter if I play them or not? The only thing I have mentioned are facts, not opinions. If I could play them, I would, but I can't. Legion is NOT slower, and the devs said(which was the original thing I said, which got so many people to argue with me), that if he kept both his old FF speed AND his new base speed, he would be able to traverse the map far too quickly. If people want Deep Wounds gone and only want his movement speed as his power, they for SURE cannot increase his speed, his current speed even may be too fast, because he will just down someone extremely quickly as he does not have to wipe his blade in FF, and moves faster than any other killer except for CLOAKED Wraith by a 1% difference. Do you know how fast cloaked Wraith moves? Fast enough to go between two doors on the opposite sides of the map and catch the last survivor EASILY after closing the hatch. Think of Deep Wounds as a limiter on Legion as well as a stall tactic. I can't imagine Legion NOT having it, because it would make them far too powerful.
Serious Atrushan...
When I see a survivor running away for me in situations he would have definitely not to pre patch times, I just know that the Legion is slower. That is all the evidence someone need.
There is no complicated math needed and what the "speed argument" matters... Would be interesting seeing the devs, saying that to a math teacher.
Would at least make me giggle.
Imo, this argument, together with the + on the base movement speed was made to trick us pre patch Legion mains and to say it in all honestly - in a very poor way.
That is one reason why I am so angry about the Legion patch and the people responsible for it. They must have think that they would all of us trick with this... -I don't know how to say it better- crap.
But then the reality has come in, as usual, and as Legion main you know of course the Legion. So it hasen't work out. Was just another reason to be mad about.
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@MrBeast said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/690774#Comment_690774
Dude she is broken OP without addons, she is not fun to play with or against this is not my opinion its streamers and killers main opinion.
Always when I read "streamers" in context to dbd I feel a bit as would I need to vomit.
Some of them have encourage their audience in the past to write nerf threads against the Legion and more important, to dc against the Legion. Aka. doing a very toxic behavior, to force their will on bhvr when I can believe some survivors.
If that is true they are responsible for the poor situation of the Legion in parts with their hypocritical crying and toxic behavior.
Since then, anything they say = I don't care.
What Spirit matters... I have never play her by myself, but after all what I have read, are the most people happy with her, or just complain about 1 addon.
Still I hope, that this one addon is not enough reason for bhvr to give her the Legion treatment (aka.... "Oh noes!, a Spirit addon is op, let us completley ruin her playstyle").
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@NullSp3c said:
Let's move it to here since this topic doesn't belong to the other discussion.
I didn't get what you mean by this
"In exchange, I would throw that missing hit penalty over board. Also that the power depletes if the Legion hits a injured survivor again, gives me a bit of a headache, if I think on how often I have encounter survivors that were just too far away from each other (so that tunneling was the only option, if you have not 2 or more see on the other site of the map doing gens or so"
You have write:
When activating Feral Frenzy, The Legion enters a deadly rage. While the power is active:
- Missing an attack has a reduced cooldown and takes half of the total power gauge.
And what the rest matters: Sorry I have read it again, and I have read it wrong. So forget what I have write there. You have catch me off guard. I making me ready to sleep behind the screen, so... sorry :)
Still, the missing attack point... I think it should have no downsite. In exchange, I would trade that named totem destroy abilitie to survivors.
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@NullSp3c said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/690449#Comment_690449
Now, that we're at it, check this out and see Legion have a power.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/87659/changes-that-shouldve-been-done-to-legion
Sounds almost good to me, but survivors should be still allowed to destroy totems while they are in dw.
In exchange, I would throw that missing hit penalty over board. Also that the power depletes if the Legion hits a injured survivor again, gives me a bit of a headache, if I think on how often I have encounter survivors that were just too far away from each other (so that tunneling was the only option, if you have not 2 or more see on the other site of the map doing gens or so - then it was worth to move on [thanks to discordance]).
But I need to say I would on board of every idea that buffs frenzy to its old, or near its old state and takes that freaking missing hit penalty away (something that you have do a bit).
As a Legion main who had mostly play without addons, I'm ok with everything - as long as I can run like Forest Gump and wild stab around like the knife killers from some horror movies :).
But that is just my opinion^^.
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@NullSp3c said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/689999#Comment_689999
I'm very unlucky in terms of survivors, if you can understand what I mean.
M1 all the game, or play another killer. At least clown has a power xD
That was a great inside joke for Legion's. Thanks for that :). I'm feeling with you^^.
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@NullSp3c said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/689377#Comment_689377
These afirmations only make me realise that you don't play Legion and you're saying this without a check.
Scratch marks last for 7 seconds (4 with lightweight), BUT Feral Frenzy completely removes blood pools and scratch makrs form the map and does not respawn them.
You only see scratch marks created a second after the fatigue ended. This is very easy to notice when playing Legion, even for the first time.
After that statement, what you said is only good on paper. You only hit 2-4 survivors with your power once in 20 games(no exageration tho) I play at red ranks but I'm currently at purple ones because of rank reset (just in case of the "rank 20" argument).
Assuming this, not even in map traversal his power is good, you reach further and faster by simply walking.
In the case you don't bealieve me:
4.6*14=64,4(simply walking)
5.0*10 + 2.7*4=60.8(Using frenzy)
Having a power that (almost) only gives information is not what you can call "decent" or "viable". What are you gonna do with all that stall and information if you can't step up the sacrificing process? Only this "benefit" in exchange for around 6 counterplay options.
It's more or less what @phantasmal said.
After my experience, you can call yourself lucky with that. I had in hundrets of matches 1 (in letters ->one<-) match where the survivors had really stick together in a 4 group.
2 people together I have sometimes encounter (I don't have count them), but that one 4 group gives me still chuckles if I remember how they have slowly crouch all toegether through the map :). Whas a picture for the gods :).
Edit: But to say something to the topic, I see no reason why a Legion should use his special abilitie. Either you are faster without it, or feeled 3 millionen stuns hanging over your head and just waiting for being activated.
With that in mind, imo, its better to use a m1 perk build and just m1 everyone.
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I am very bad in survivors spotting. Luckily, it was hard getting rid of me, as soon as I have spot someone^^.
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I think with a few perk changes, everyone could have lived.
Even I need to admit, that I have love all the Legion perks and I mean, all the perks. I had always use all of them + one aura reading perk, since finding a survivor is my weakness.
I am not bad at hitting someone, at m1 mind games and I was also not bad in using Legion's power successful, but oh boy... Sometimes it was really hard for me to find a survivor in the first place^^.
So I was happy with discordance, iron maiden and most times that aura perk that shows survivors auras after they have finish a gen for 8 seconds or what that was (don't know the name in english).
However, that core abilities not fit to what is shown in the video is a completley different topic and until the day where either the Legion match again, the things they shown in the advertisment video, or the day where they upload a updated advertisment video, it will for sure lead to upset customers.
I am by myself upset about that and I had a pretty high hit rate. Not important if we talk about m1 attacks or m2 frenzy hits. If it comes high, I had miss 1-2 times a survivor/match. Think that's ok.
Still, to have in mind that you are getting stunned after a missing hit takes for me a bit the freedom and fun away to play with the Legion.
I am also in general against anything that feels as it was mentioned as a punishment in games (it can be, but it should not feel like this) since I play games for fun and nobody pays me for doing it^^.
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Sry for nitpicking. I'm feeling on one site bad for this, but standing for months on the Legion site and fighting exaggerations from some people turns you into a guy who do this, I guess.
Btw. a pure dmg effect, instead of dw today how from me descipet would possible. It just would need balance and a possible hotfix after a few weeks to adjust it maybe.
The named 10% from me were just a example. I don't think that would be a good number... At least, that would mean that a Legion would need 10x stabs/each survivor and when we have to remember, that you could only stab with the old frenzy 2x times, 1 survivor in a real game situation (on average) ... Yeah that would end up in a chore.
Maybe 20% would be better. Would hard to find first a base rate, but after that the balance would be easy imo. Also it would give the ptb a reason to exist :).
Btw. being fast and stabbing is what the most people from the Legion want, or expect.
Imagine yourself...
-You have never play dbd.
-One day you think you would like to play dbd and as killer, but which killer?
-You looking through the advertisment videos of the killers and then you see this fast running and stabbing guy in one video...
Can you with that in mind still blame players that they either want or expect a fast moving and stabbing killer?
That information crap they can take and put into a new killer. Doesn't work with this killer, since he is still known for the way he was advertised.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/688299#Comment_688299
Infinite more legion than freddy, hag and pig combined. (Kinda...XD)
I am honestly surprised. The hag has a really good reputation imo. I don't read much nerf threads about her (ok sometimes, but that happens to every killer) and she seems to be viable if I think on her killrate from the statistics shown by bhvr to the time of the Legion patch.
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@Warlock_2020 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/687655#Comment_687655
The overwhelming majority disagreed with you on original Legion. Even heavily killer biased streamers like Tyde had issues with Legion. He was a bad design and implantation. I still think he is lackluster and would love to see his name match his power. Something along the lines of being able to switch between members during the match and each having a slightly different set of strengths.
Either way, our discussion is pretty much at a wall. You love Legion as he was, and almost everyone who did not use him hated him. The end.
You are right, but I try also to "bring the other point of view" into the discussion, from the people that were too long silent and also a bit common sense (that means, less exaggerations and more "how it was/is").
I honestly don't know btw. if the overwhelming majority was "anti Legion" btw.
I had hundrets of friendly and/or happy people in my endgame chat and if we hold now in mind, that the standard dbd game has something around 2-4 survivors in a match - those people would easily outwight the nerf cryers we have seen in this, or the steam frorums and I was only 1 Legion - there were a ton of other people that have also play the Legion.
Of course, not everyone of them had a nice endgame chat - at least I think since it also hangs together how you play as a killer - still... that's a number hard to outwight.
And as a matter of fact, I have never seen official numbers from bhvr, how many people have complain compared to how many people were ok with it.
And as long, as I don't do this, I can only choose the site in which I more believe and thats for me the pro site, how you are btw. also be forced to do also, just that you stay on the other site :).
Edit: Btw. Your concept for a killer btw. sounds also good.
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@Atrushan88 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/687857#Comment_687857
Spirit is exactly why they didn't keep his speed the same. She's a 110% killer. Hillbilly can only move in a straight line with his chainsaw, and Nurse has a fatigue every time she blinks, which is in reality many more fatigues than Legion will ever know. Legion has much more control of movement than any of the characters you mentioned, and with 115% speed plus fatigue speed being as fast as previously, he'd just traverse the map entirely too fast, and he can still cancel his power once catching up to someone. If they did want to give him this option, perhaps they could make it where he couldn't cancel his power, including misses once using it, forcing him to either wait it out, or keep hitting them/find other survivors. This would force him to use his higher mobility to find other survivors instead of hitting them with DW, and then cancelling/continuing to chase one survivor.
As for his counterplay, would you rather he had no counterplay? Every character has some form of counterplay. Splitting up is pretty much Legion's only counterplay to his actual power, which is essentially a mini Plague vomit(he can injure every survivor on the map if they don't split up in a very quick time frame. To be fair, Plague's vomit is better, as they are forced to stay injured unless they cleanse, but the fact remains that if survivors didn't split up to counter Legion's power, then they would simply just keep getting picked off). I don't think that Legion is SUPPOSED to chain hit all four every time he uses his power, which is a misconception I think that other people believe he should. I think 2 survivors is good, 4 survivors is supposed to be a lucky/rare case.
Thats not really how it is. Billy can a tiny bit change his direction shortly before he is fully "charged" (is that the correct word?, I guess you know what I mean), but yes of course, its not the same like with the Legion.
I assume that the most Legion players would happyley change their actual base-movement speed back to the old one, if some frenzy changes would go along with that.
What dw matters... They should just delete it and transform it into a pure dmg abilitie imo (what know I? maybe then every frenzy hit makes 10% - 20% dmg on a survivor or so - directly). The ability is anyways already useless and serves no other purpose anymore as to annoy the Legion player and the survivors.
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@Warlock_2020 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/687015#Comment_687015
You can't be serious when you say a killer can't be toxic. Your quote about the survivor rule book is nothing more than a scapegoat. Anyone with common sense knows that either side can be toxic. Heck, survivors can throw that stupid rulebook crap right back at us. Toxic to loop, instant heals, brand new part, second chance meta, tea bag, the list of whining goes on and on from both sides.
Legion was a horrible design and was clearly in need of changes. Are the current changes good? Perhaps not, but old Legion was bad all the way around.
I have by myself never take those "rules" from survivors or killers serious. What is allowed and what not, is shown via the game mechanics as long, as nobody exploits them.
But, there is no horrible design.
One guy dislikes a mechanic, the other likes it.
When I play my ms-warrior in wow as example, I could everytime bite in my keyboard when I have to deal with a frostmage (because feeled 3 million ccs's) or the most healing classes (because there heal is usually strong enough to survive 1 dd that nibbles on them). Still I'm ok with it.
Because there are other classes, where I have my chance and I see those guys not in every match (besides that frostmages are still possible, they are just annoyance as f.).
Back to dbd, a lot of people have like and some even love the old Legion. I had even make extra screenshots from endgame chats with happy survivors, because I had already know before that I will exactly run in your argument, sooner - or later.
On the other hand, there are a lot of people that have dislike, or even hate the Legion, but I tell you something... Exactly that shows a good design.
It needs to be edgy!
Every killer in dbd and every game mechanic has its lovers and haters. Did you think that I as a killer have enjoy all those speed% + perks? I wouldn't mind if they would go... But I think, that the most survivors have there might a different viewpoint and would say no and that's ok :).
It's in the game, so its something I have to deal with, as long as I play the game.
Besides that, how would you hold people now in the game, that have only join dbd because of a killer like the Legion?
Yeah, I know, they were all noobs and all of them were just bad person's - I know the opinion of some survivors here in those forums "blah, blah, blah, Legion this, Legion that" - but those people were also customers that have buy this dlc and god knows how many cosmetics - aka. they were part of a group who have give the devs money and as a companie, you should like money (because there is never enough).
So tl:dr, what would you offer those guys now?
There is nothing left! The Legion was not like the m1 killers, where it would be ok if 1 goes away, since there exist a ton of them in the game. The Legion was unique and as a consequence of that, has dbd nothing to offer anymore to those players and that means a part of their income breakes away and they will get a lot of negativity. Either here in the forums, or on other platforms, or in talks in real life.
This situation should never had happened and she should be solved as fast as possible, or it will go on and on and on and... I bet you know already what I will say now... on.
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@Warlock_2020 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/686528#Comment_686528
I don't think my full message came through. Old Legion was toxic and not good for the game. New Legion is boring for both the killer and the survivor. It does not matter if he is viable, I don't disagree there. What matters is that the power of the killer exemplifies the bland survivor play to begin with. Thus, a rework would be more beneficial all the way around. I think the character has plenty of upside, just needs a rework.
Sry Warlock, but I need to say:
A killer can't be toxic. What can be toxic are the killer ->players<- and yes there you are right. Some Legions were toxic. At least I have seen some in streams/videos and on the Legion patch day, I was by myself very toxic - at least according to the survivor rules book. Don't know how many survivors I had mori on this day - the first day I had ever use them -_-.
But what should I say to my defence? The circumstances of that day, the circumstances of that day...
Also I have the strong believe that it was not positive for the communitie, that dbd lost the Legion. The Legion was 1 of a few killers in dbd, that had a special playstyle and every killer (not just the Legion) that offers a special playstyle also attracts a specific type of player.
Those players don't stay at a game, if their reason to stay breakes away.
The only people that have profit from it, were the people that have dislike or hate the Legion, but some of them were so toxic that it was in my eyes a deal with the devil.
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Statistics can tell you if a killer is op, or not. Or how often he is played.
Still they can't tell if it makes fun to play them, because that is just a feeling we all have, or not.
So, I hope, that they not only look in the data.
The most complains about the new Legion is that they make no fun after all.
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@twistedmonkey said:
That's a mix of hitbox and animations.
The hit had registered as they were close enough but the animation time made it seem like you were further away and also due to where they were the killer looked like he was behind the wall.
I had never thought on also animations by issuses like that. Usually I just think then on hitboxes and latency problems.
Well... I never learn out^^.
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Imo frenzy could be buffed to the old state, without fearing any balance issuses, as long, as deep wounds stays untouched in its current state.
Edit: The moment they would touch deep wounds again, then would first the balancing and its possible issuses begin, imo. Still since the most people just want to be fast and stabby stabby, a working deep wounds effect is for it not necessary.
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I could throw now at you some links with videos to counterplay to the old Legion, but we both know that it would be a waste of time and I understand it.
Those "op Legion videos" don't make you thinking and people can still stay in their comfort zone^^.
The survivor friend of mine had did counterplay. Thinking back, maybe I should have made with him a tutorial video, but I guess it would struggle with the same problem like any other tutorial video out there - it would not let their watchers stay in their comfort zone.
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@DBDbuildsYT said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/686438#Comment_686438
Eh I agree with your loss of interest, unfortunately the old legion wronged survivors and survivors hold the power in dbd.
One killer, who was easy to beat by gen rushing, dared to xhallenge their looping game and they lobbied until legion was no more.
The only hope is for legion to move away from that type of fame and fly under the radar as an average mid tier killer, then we can have something which won't be lobbied into the pile of trash that we have atm.
Any good legion would be lobbied once again.
Killers opinions do not really count
Well under this friends was also 1 survivor^^ (he was already less interested in dbd and then the devs decided to take another variety from the m1 killers out - that was the moment for him).
The Legion haters will always be here and they will cry about every positive change that happens to the Legion. No matter if it makes the Legion stronger, or if those changes are just "quality of live", or fun changes and that means, we can't take any hindsight on them.
But as you, I am also afraid of a strong coming back of the Legion. That is why I always see already heaven falling when somebody brings addon changes in :/.
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I have my doubts, that we will ever again see a big Legion patch as we have seen it in the past.
But I bet what we might will see are some changes that prior 1 or 2 specific things depending the Legion, or that they undone parts of the Legion patch (like the frenzy speed and vault speed).
Just because that would be faster to made as to do a second rework patch.
What myself matters, so don't worry, I will get anyways more and more silent with the time (I'm writing already less).
I had promise some friends to hold them up to date* what the Legion matters in the days back then, but oh boy... I never thought in this days, that it would take so much time to see some changes by the Legion - even were she is at a place where everybody can see that the Legion struggles with some serious problems.
Also my own patience is running thinner and thinner. I am still interested in the Legion and with it - dbd, but I don't know how long I can hold up that interesd, even with something like a promise to friends in the background.
So, tl:dr, then this interest is gone, I am also and I bet then are some guys real happy :).
Edit: They had leave like me on the Legion patchday dbd, I just said to them that I say them when they have finally undone some things, so that they might come back.
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The old Legion would be fine, if they had fix the exploits and if they had not give the Legion such powerfull addons.
Imo a big part of the old Legion addons were made to outwight the weaknesses of the old Legion. Sadly that had fire back badly, since they were a primary reason why survivors were and some are still, upset about the old Legion.
Also at least for some Legion mains they were too strong. I as example had never fun with them. The 1 time I had use Franks Mixtape for testing purposes, I had just sit there and thought "when gets the frenzy finally over?". A special abilitie feels not as a special abilitie if she had a feeled duration of 3 hours (I'm exaggerate, but I guess everyone gets what I am trying to say here).
I would also bet with everyone, that we would see not many real nerf threads* about the Legion, if bhvr would revive just the base abilities of the Legion (with exploits fixed of course and no addons).
*Under real nerf threads I understand nerf threads that a written by people, that are upset about a game mechanic. This includes not people that write nerf threads because they hate game mechanic XYZ (because they are not interested in balance, they just want to see something go) and also not nerf threads from people that complain about just everything (aka. some people that shift from 1 nerf topic to another, like seen after the Legion patch, that some have directly shift over in Nurse, Spirit, Billy, Meyers, Huntress and other killer nerf threads - I can not take such people seriously - srs guys why you play a game where everything is for you to difficult? Anyways, no answer needed).
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@NullSp3c said:
So, Legion will be changed in the near future (1-2 months from now) and you are going to rework his add-ons first and then change/buff his power?
To me, that seems a lot counterproductive.
Is this how you will really procceed?
There is no date set yet. Can be a month, can be year. Far as I have understand the messages.
Should they finally decide to do the necessary and on long term unavoidable, aka also touch the Legion basekit, I hope that they do it this time with the Legion mains and their fun in mind.
A raging survivor is maybe upset about his match against the Legion, but already in the next match he has a very high chance to meet a different killer.
That is obviously not the case for a Legion main, since he plays him highley possible more as one match after another.
What the announced addon changes matters, so I hope they will not be too strong.
The old Legion had produce nerf threads because of his op addons and exploits. Not because of his base abilities. I hope the devs make this mistake not again. So no op addons please.
Do instead a better frenzy abilitie. A frenzy abiltie that feels fast again. That would a primary wish we read in those forums again and again (and also from me).
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@Almo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/684984#Comment_684984
DC penalties are in the works. We're aware it's an issue; but with deadicated servers, we'll have more tools to deal with chronic DCing players.
Thank you for your response.
Let us hope that those new possibilities stop the dcing people.
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I think also that it is necessary to make the frenzy changes undone.
Deep wounds... Well... we should wait for that until we know what for addon changes will happen.
The last thing on earth, the Legion needs is, to have again so overpowerd addons as she had before. Then the nerf cycle would start again.
Also it would be good imo, because then some survivors would be forced to learn the default Legion to know (in some way), so that they finally also be forced to stop with their exaggerations.
Or at least, if they don't, everybody would know what for kind of people are writing there.
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@Almo said:
I've said this before: high DC rate is only one indicator that there's an issue. There were other reasons we did an update. We're still watching data on them, and will make further adjustments if we feel it is necessary.
I believe you, but it is also a fact that the dcing guys have take it as their "victory" (like they sometimes write it in this, or the steam forums) and everytime something like that happens, it encourages people like them and that means as a consequence of it, that they continue with their toxic behavior and also it spreads since people have got the feeling that it has worked.
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@Omans said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/684299#Comment_684299
Agreed. Nurse first, then the weaker killers.
Do you even remember old legion? I can't even count how many times I went down after just one hit. I don't like players who disconnect, but I don't blame them even a little bit when it was against a legion like that.
If you don't play killer well you will not catch me. You will chase me for 5 generators and I will run out the gates. The better player wins. With legion that was not the case. Even a player like you, with no understanding of good balance, could down a player like me. Every down legion got was guaranteed. Survivor skill meant nothing.
I don't argue that 5 gens maybe would be popping up in this time, but you would not survive and there are killers out there where I bet that they a lot better as me. Its not that hard to tunnel a survivor down, if you really forget everything about it.
And I remember playing the Legion. I have main the Legion, but I had main the Legion without addons because the most addons were to op (imo).
Aaand that's why I can expose every guy who is exaggerate.
As a matter of fact, because of the short frenzy time, you could hit in real game situations a single survivor only 1-2 times (sometimes 3 if the survivor was really unlucky) and still after 1-3 hits the survivors have stay and were be able to heal them self.
The Legion was not known for 1 hit everyone, -she was known for hitting survivors multiple times.
Also I have a good feeling for balance, I guess, I just don't forget a killer character about that. I don't let go hate into my thoughts. Would I let this go in my thoughts I would see survivors in general differently as I do now, but I don't do it since I know that in the game are mostly survivors that are different to the survivors we met here in the forums.
Those survivors like to have fun games and are also happy to have challenging games and they hold most of the time no personal grudges against a specific character and that I know, because I have talk a lot with them in my endgame chats.
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@Omans said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/683278#Comment_683278
Legion mains left the game because unfair mechanics were removed? Oh no! What a pity!! I would have the same reaction if moris and insta-heals were removed and people left because of that - good riddance.
I understand why the devs job is so hard now...people with no concept of fair play are so outspoken about keeping their broken, unbalanced toys intact.
These 'counters' to old legion you talk about are absurd. A huntress hatchet can be dodged. It can be avoided with strong positioning and dodging. It feels fair to be hit by a hatchet. The only complaints I've ever seen about huntress have been one-hit hatchets (understandable complaint), and hit box size. Old legion (if the killer had a brain) was undodge-able. And after you got hit once the chase was over. So, in your mind, something that can't be dodged and after being hit once you will be downed, was fair? And for some reason you think all the actual good players were misinformed when they told you legion was absolutely terrible for the health of the game?
Addons or no addons, the result was the same against a legion who wanted to down you. There was nothing you could do to outplay the legion if he so desired. No matter what you say, rational people understand that sort of gameplay is unhealthy for the game. Period.
No survivor was down from just 1 Legion hit. That was not even possible with the op addons and some of them have already made it really easy, buuut not that easy.
You can dislike the counters to the Legion, but that doesn't mean that they have not exist. You can't denie it. Too many survivor have done them and it got too many times showed in videos (I know, everytime the Legion was a noob, because everytime you complain about something, the others are noobs not... I got it).
Besides that, every killer with experience would down a survivor in a 1n1 situation, if he really goes tryhard on tunneling. If you think that you would have survive against me as example while I was playing Meyers, Nurse, or Trapper you would be very wrong if I would decide to tunnel you at all costs.
It is always bad if people leave a game, no matter which reasons they have, besides exploiters or people that are pure toxic (because those people lead other people to leave the game). You can turn it around like you want -the Legion patch was from a community perspective not a win for dbd.
Besides the one side that honest people have left the game and have with it stop to buy dlcs and cosmetics, the toxic type of player had feel encouraged because their weaponized dcing against a killer had work and even today those people plague and frustrate the people in the game.
Also specific game mechanics and specific killers talk to specific players. You get those people not in the game, without having something for them. It is always bad if a game has nothing to offer for a potential player, because that means you get less income (money) with your game.
You can hate the Legion players all you want and even insult them, still the game is more profitable with them, as without them.