SuzuKR
SuzuKR
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I just do. The game is fun.
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@SensualPotato said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2948831#Comment_2948831
People want to try what? Making the game more miserable for everyone? Lol
Doing their best to try and win? Why do you think people are obligated to follow your arbitrary standards? BMing and being toxic in chat is stupid and unnecessary. There's absolutely nothing wrong with playing as seriously as possible. Get over it.
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DBD players when people want to try:
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@RisingTron said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2948627#Comment_2948627
It doesn't matter if it's overpowered/broken/uncounterable/etc. It's a bug. Blight is not intended to do that.
Whether it's fair or fun is irrelevant now.
And bugs have regularly been incorporated into games as accepted features/mechanics to be balanced around instead for years. Removal is not the only option, and it is disingenuous to liken a bug that betters experience versus something like crashing a game/being unable to pick up a survivor/etc. So, no, it's not irrelevant.
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The tribalistic/gloating attitudes of some of the people here is pretty cringeworthy. Why not actually discuss things like a normal person instead of "lol haha get rekt"? What are you, a child? You can discuss things with people of opposing viewpoints without being a poor sport about it.
I'm still waiting for evidence from anyone here that hug tech was overpowered/broken/uncounterable/etc.
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@Faen said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2948378#Comment_2948378
What is "Hug Tech"
Please check details.
Blitght is full of chips that are unclear. Considered a bug or not.
For example: twists (Flicks), texture licks.
Simply put.
What is def vision of Blight?!
Flicks and sliding in general are intended, hug tech wasn’t. Hug tech is reducing or removing collision by starting the rush hugging the wall. That said, it would be better to turn it into a mechanic as it’s well-received, makes chases more interactive, and is simple to mindgame.
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Still waiting for meaningful counter-evidence from anyone that hug techs are uncounterable/overpowered/whatever other buzzword you want.
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@eleventbh said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2948528#Comment_2948528
I've actually seen that video, I like Hens. He's above average skill but that's why he's one of the players this community can learn from. Lilith Omen is another player I like to watch but from Blight's perspective, since I used to play Blight and because of course it's good to learn counter-play by watching how top players think.
I'm glad to help. Also yeah, even Lilith pretty regularly brings it up during gameplay where he'll go for a slide around an object, and the survivor left the area and completely countered it. While hug tech is unintended, I think it's better to make it into an accepted mechanic and smooth it out/balance around it instead. It adds interactivity, it's well-received by a lot of players, and it's not actually overpowered.
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@eleventbh said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2947515#Comment_2947515
Well, it not skill related? Can you elaborate on that?
They don't realize it is mindgameable like you said, or don't care to.
@eleventbh said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2947633#Comment_2947633
I believe you. I don't go against Blights as often as others seem to but my experience is if they even manage to pull it off successfully, they deserved to get me. Watching skilled Blight players hug tech, I notice they always catch survivors that are pathing in the most predictable way. After a Blight tries to or successfully hug techs one time, it's not hard for me to simply just not go for shack window, or leave the area of the loop they're rushing at. .
That is exactly the counterplay. If you think Blight will go for sliding, then you break LOS, and then leave the wall/surface of the loop so that Blight physically cannot reach you by sliding. There is also a maximum to which he can "peel off" the loop he's sliding from, and if you already predicted it and left, even that is incapable of reaching you. Sliding lets him take unconventional angles, but it also locks him into other ones. That is why it adds interactivity and mindgaming to chase, because the survivor can either play around bump logic or sliding, and the Blight plays around which way they think the survivor will try and read.
I've actually linked examples and a guide here from Hens in a post if you wanted to see other people applying it to that: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2947968/#Comment_2947968
Playing against hug tech in general is similar to playing against any form of sliding, and if it's a short height loop, it's not much different from playing against bump logic, since either way he still has to come to you and you can see him doing so.
"I have no evidence and I was completely shut down so I will just pretend to be snobby and not actually care so I don't have to admit I have no actual support for any of my backwards claims."
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@Mandy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2948193#Comment_2948193
Whilst that is true, I do speak with the knowledge of what is happening internally.
I disagree with removal entirely instead of acceptance and turning it into a mechanic. There are a lot of ways to play around it, it's well-received by many, and adds interactivity to the chase. For example, Blight at shack can use either bump logic or hug tech. If Blight goes for the former, the survivor plays around the nearby possible ricochet routes to avoid Blight. If Blight goes for a slide, the survivor either goes inside the shack or breaks LOS, and then peels away from the loop entirely so Blight cannot convert the slide into reaching them. It adds more mindgaming to both sides for that reason. I am also concerned that it will screw up collision for all non-hug tech sliding that was intentionally designed.
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@Bwsted said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2947968#Comment_2947968
Not player's data. Look that word up: data. It doesn't mean what you think it means.
For the remainder of your rant, I can only say this: moving the goal post.
Ah yes, actual proof of people playing against it and showing it is blatantly obvious it is fully possible to mindgame/counter it is not proof.
Who's moving the goal posts again? But you do you with the circlejerk rants. Maybe read the dictionary? Here, I'll even help you out:
factual information (such as measurements or statistics) used as a basis for reasoning, discussion, or calculation; information in digital form that can be transmitted or processed… See the full definitionfactual information (such as measurements or statistics) used as a basis for reasoning, discussion, or calculation
Gee, I wonder what actual recorded gameplay of people out-mindgaming it could possibly be.
Oh, that reminds me. You feel like giving actual proof that hug tech in its current implementation is overpowered or are we supposed to just listen to statements out of your rear? Just asking by the way.
@Tsulan said:
Ok i have to ask. Since this is the first time, that i hear the term "hug tech". What is it exactly?
Correcting some of the erroneous statements others have made. Blight is intentionally designed with sliding mechanics created which allows him to slide around objects like walls, cars, rocks, etc. However, an unintended bug that currently exists called hug tech is when Blight starts the Rush already pressed up as close as possible to the object ("hugging") it. Doing so reduces/removes the collision and allows Blight to slide from a stand still rather than rushing towards an object and then sliding around it. Sliding in general is intended. Starting a slide from zero by hugging the object is an unintended bug. It is fairly simple to mindgame as it locks Blight into the path around whatever he's sliding. Think of it as running across a train track versus riding a train across the train track. One semi-locks you in, the other doesn't. The counterplay is out-reading it, not out-reacting it.
It's genuinely funny how many people have no clue what they're talking about and how often they mix stuff up.
https://www.twitch.tv/mclean_yep/clip/SullenProductiveAlmondPastaThat-3gIl_qyQ2UAmaqun
https://clips.twitch.tv/SaltyBeautifulFoxTriHard-d5EklvyTscZluOLe
https://clips.twitch.tv/InnocentSlipperyPlumageBuddhaBar-Ta89Ag9JLRGNVoRQ
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@Bwsted said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2947633#Comment_2947633
There's no player data whatsoever available to us regarding hug techs. You shouldn't spread misinfornation, especially when you criticize lack of conclusive evidence in the very sentence before that one.
Countering hug tech is just countering sliding in general. The only real difference is if he's approaching from somewhere else or started the slide at the loop, but either way, he's sliding around the thing the same way once he's at the surface he's sliding around.
Objects in a map always have the exact same collision (outside of when collision itself is changed). A pile of whatever on map X will always have the same collision as that same pile of whatever on map X in another play through. What Blight can and can't slide around can be learned for this reason, and you can put Blight into situations to prevent even using it outright.
If it's a short-height loop, it's not any different from countering bump logic. You see them coming regardless and play around that. Eg, positioning around a pallet on said loop so that there is no way to land a hit since the pallet will prevent it. Them coming sliding around or from bump logic doesn't matter when the only way to you is through an undropped pallet regardless of which direction they go.
Do: https://youtu.be/KrKo7-NNU_s?t=824 (Mindgame and make them commit to a false direction)
research: https://youtu.be/p-JdvyLQ68I?t=734 (Messy collision + pallet blocks the only way to land a hit regardless of which way loop is ran even if sliding was possible)
before: https://youtu.be/KWdJaPSDKA8?t=168 (Blight expects survivor still hugging at loop, survivor made correct play in peeling off the loop so that Blight cannot reach them with sliding range)
making: https://youtu.be/e-29j3uWNrA?t=167 (Messy collision, cannot be slid around, prevents using hug tech entirely)
ignorant: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/U6MjsOMjGLQ (Cut off LOS, peel off and go other way, if you read Blight correctly, you evade hit. Works on any other LOS-blocking loop like Shack.)
assumptions: https://youtu.be/ArWKXCVLCuo?t=135
If you ever were curious why hug tech basically almost never appears in comp, it’s because it’s simple enough to mindgame and avoid because it locks Blight to a certain limited possible paths compared to bump logic. It’s a fancy move that looks cool but that’s about it. It’s not uncounterable by any means, and is easier to counter than bump logic. Before you go “oh but comp useless for balance”, obviously at a general level, yes. You can still learn from chases. See how good players chase as and against the killer and apply it to regular matches.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
Honestly I don't really care whether they remove hug tech or not, I just want his op addons nerfed and that's all.
Blight's problematic add-ons are his only issue in the first place anyways (Alchemist Ring, Compound 33).
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I wish any of the people criticizing hug tech would have actual conclusive evidence it is overpowered. Cause actual player data shows people mindgame it just fine at equal levels of play.
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@RisingTron said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2947498#Comment_2947498
Are y'all gonna be like this all the way up until it's finally removed...
Be like what exactly? Wanting a rational discussion despite opposing views? Yes, I will.
@Puddles said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/321750/thoughts-on-blight-tech
The forum majority is killer main, cuz killer mains don't have survivor friends to talk to (so they have to come to forums to be heard).
Most people here will say it's ok, it's skill related, etc etc.
“Everyone that disagrees with me is a killer main who has no friends” is not the argument you think it is.
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@RisingTron said:
The ppl already begging for hug tech to stay got me giggling a little i can't lie
I don't know why you feel the need to belittle people of opposing opinions as "begging". I think that it would be better to turn it into an accepted mechanic from where it can be smoothed out and balanced around. It's well-received, adds interactivity to the chase for both sides, and is balanced/fairly simple to mindgame if you read it right, which I can prove as well with various clips of players doing exactly that in normal games.
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@DrDeepwound said:
So basically now any Blight that slides on a car is exploiting?
I thought devs made the shack slippery on purpose, is this exploit now bannable?
Sliding in general is intentional and a mechanic was created specifically to allow for stuff like this.
What Mandy is referring to is specifically starting a Rush "hugging" the object (being as close as possible to it), so that you reduce/remove collision and thus slide that way. This specific manner is a bug and unintended and was said that it will be removed.
Which is pretty unfortunate that it's not being turned into an accepted mechanic instead, given that it's well-received, makes chase more interactive for both sides, and is balanced, and I can actually prove that as well for anyone curious, including @MandyTalk if she wants to see in-game examples of players doing so.
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@frit said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2947341#Comment_2947341
dude you can link as many videos as you want, tell me how much you and anyone else like it, it does not matter. devs just said it’s a bug, so it’s a bug. it’s as simple as that.
You should re-read what I said. I never disputed that it's a bug. The other things are not bugs, like flicking or other types of sliding. Hug tech is just one specific type of sliding, and is the only part that is a bug.
@frit said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2947371#Comment_2947371
when it was said that “sliding” was intentional, he was saying that if you running into like a tree and don’t wanna collide you can look down for a sec to avoid bumping into the tree. he never meant sliding off an entire wall or car ect
he meant just looking down for a quick sec to avoid bumping, not force sliding
Yes, that's clearly why they made an entire mechanic around sliding for doing that around cars and loops, and made a QoL patch for console who was struggling to do the latter. You should re-learn what you're talking about.
Also, I already addressed this, but games accepting bugs as features has been a thing for years. It's not an unusual thing, especially when it's well-received, as it's just free bonus content the devs didn't even have to try to make, and all they have to do is just accept and balance around it instead of removing it. That said, devs can still remove hug tech. However, what you said earlier that "it’s nothing to even argue about, it’s a bug and shouldn’t exist, simple as that. there is no argument that can be made." is just a plainly false statement.
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@Naturally_Pink said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2947315#Comment_2947315
Understood. Thank you for the quick response, I'll just delete this after a while.
You don't need to, there's nothing wrong with having ideas. This is just part of a healthy and civil discussion, which is a good thing.
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@Pulsar said:
Surely this means they'll fix his collision....right?
What do you mean by this? Sliding is an intentional mechanic, even if the specific usage of hug tech wasn't.
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@frit said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2947335#Comment_2947335
it’s nothing to even argue about, it’s a bug and shouldn’t exist, simple as that. there is no argument that can be made.
Actually, that is incorrect, even from a general game design perspective. Many games have accepted unintended bugs as actual mechanics instead, smoothed them out, and balanced around them instead. For instance, Riven from League of Legends is a pretty famous example. Her usage of animation-canceling was not originally intended, but because it became popular and added to the creative depth and interactivity of the character, it was accepted and revised into an intended mechanic that is now balanced around.
Likewise, in this case, it seems hug tech will be removed, but it could just as easily go the above route. Hug techs are fairly simple to mindgame, and doing so near-guarantees a hit evasion as sliding locks Blight to a certain path range maximum he can deviate from. It also adds more interactivity to the chase, as both the survivor and killer player has more options to use and counter-use against each other. Accepting it as an actual mechanic would let them smooth out any weird parts and balance the character with that in mind as a mechanic.
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Yes, hug tech was an unintended bug. I don't see why you feel the need to be unnecessarily rude and disrespectful. Why not be a better person? Also, the other techniques are not exploits:
Flicking and double flicking are intended: https://www.twitch.tv/mclean_yep/clip/AmorphousFaithfulKleeTheTarFu-jPzbiLNS-Dku-899
Sliding in general is an intentionally created mechanic: https://www.twitch.tv/mclean_yep/clip/SullenProductiveAlmondPastaThat-3gIl_qyQ2UAmaqun
The camera is attached to the Rush on purpose as one of two collision components so he can remove his collision, and scoot surfing is an example of an intended mechanic because of it: https://clips.twitch.tv/InnocentSlipperyPlumageBuddhaBar-Ta89Ag9JLRGNVoRQ
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@Naturally_Pink said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2946261#Comment_2946261
Could you elaborate? I would like to know why. I see Endless Faith as a Last Chance perk.
Radiant Hope is to pull the killer's attention to the Seraphim player (or whoever is running it)
Endless Faith: Just loop the killer around the hook or hide somewhere near the hook. It makes it literally stupid and detrimental for the killer to just leave, but chasing you/looking for you because they know you're somewhere near (eg, scratch marks) punishes them anyways for a situation you essentially forced them into in the first place. This ends up in a lose-lose situation for the killer where no matter what they do, they get punished, including for playing it out correctly (not leaving the hook and continuing to chase/look for you). Giving a chance for rescue on third hook at all is completely beyond overpowered and game-breakingly busted. People do not need ANOTHER chance at that point.
Radiant Hope: Killer hooking survivors, and survivors unhooking other survivors, is part of natural gameplay. It is intended both happen. This perk punishes the killer in a completely different situation for something that this game is balanced around happening, which can literally ruin any chase. Furthermore, the aura reveal after does not balance out the initial effect. The effect only gets more ridiculous when multiple survivors take it. Imagine all four people take it. Now you have the killer getting blinded literally every single time someone unhooks while the killer is doing other things. This actively punishes the killer for NOT camping to deny an unhook when they're doing other things.
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@KurnDisciple said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2947192#Comment_2947192
The fact that people will come in here and argue Nurse needs to exist in her current state because "There are no other viable killers" when you got guys out there slaughtering hundreds of games in a row as Clown?
Why is a killer in the game who even in the hands of an above average player can dominate 4 man SWFs on comms? Where does that leave solo Q?
In a perfect world even the best Nurse should only be pulling a 2k and that's not anywhere near my experiences with this game. It's you load in, you hear the Nurse screech, someone is down in 20 seconds, pain res DMS comes through on the first gen and the game is over already.
And it's absurd people will then come in here and defend that existing
So, do you have actual conclusive statistical evidence she consistently overperforms against players of equal skill on an even-sided map? I would genuinely like to see it, because all evidence available indicates she is in a spot of basically perfect balance.
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@KurnDisciple said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2946992#Comment_2946992
I watch Dreede, Absolved, Pro Vengeance; all veteran killer players who I would estimate win over 90% of their games handily. It's not uncommon for them to play entire streams without dropping a game. Pro Vengeance specifically just got off a 160 MMR winstreak, and had a 100+ MMR winstreak on clown.
So you can argue they are low MMR all you want but if you are not max MMR after winning 100 games in a row the matchmaking is just broken
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zN1vlrX5tOo
People can crutch on Nurse all they want but it doesn't change a thing in my mind, I say git gud. Every time I load into a match as survivor and it's a Nurse I wonder why that broken character is still in the game
I hope you understand almost every single very good player will dominate almost every single game. The portion of players at that level of skill is very small, and so matchmaking has to put them with worse players for the sake of queue times. BHVR has addressed this explicitly in a Q&A stream. Extremely good survivor players escape almost every game. Extremely good killer players slaughter almost every game regardless of killer.
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Why would she be nerfed? She’s balanced. If you dispute that, please give actual conclusive statistical evidence she consistently overperforms against players of equal skill on an even-sided map. These nerfs would literally kill her.
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@Mandy said:
To stop the argument that is brewing here, "hug tech" is not intended and is classed as a bug and will be fixed.
Hey Mandy, thanks for the official answer!
However, there are some concerns I wanted to clarify. You are referring to Blight’s current interaction where if he starts "hugging" the object, the Rush will have no collision, correct? Cause I saw McLean has also mentioned that was a bug in the past. What I am concerned about is whether this will break sliding in general otherwise, because I distinctly remember it being mentioned as intended. For instance, "scoot slide" where you Rush at an object at an angle and/or while looking down so that you slide once you reach that object. https://clips.twitch.tv/InnocentSlipperyPlumageBuddhaBar-Ta89Ag9JLRGNVoRQ Furthermore, McLean talked about how one of the two collision components was attached to the camera specifically so Blight could reduce his collision. https://clips.twitch.tv/SaltyBeautifulFoxTriHard-d5EklvyTscZluOLe Additionally, McLean also mentioned in another stream that QoL updates had been made to console because they were having a more difficult time of sliding than intended, and that they created a "sliding mechanic". https://www.twitch.tv/mclean_yep/clip/SullenProductiveAlmondPastaThat-3gIl_qyQ2UAmaqun I hope you can confirm that only hug tech is being fixed and the other forms of sliding will not be ruined.
Second, I would like to ask you to reconsider the idea. While it is unintended, it is very simple to mindgame, and adds more depth and interactivity into Blight’s chases. Much like how Riven’s animation canceling was unintended but became accepted as a mechanic and balanced around because players found that much more fun and interactive. For instance, if Blight is at shack, he can either use bump logic or sliding. If he goes with the former, the survivor would pay attention to nearby environmental objects to mindgame his incoming path they predict. If Blight uses the latter, the survivor can either run inside the shack, or break LOS, and then peel away from the wall itself, as Blight’s sliding will make him unable to fully re-correct in that situation, as he is basically "glued" to the wall. There are many actual examples of survivors doing this sort of mindgame read against sliding I can show you as well.
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Endless Faith: Too abusable.
Radiant Hope: Unhealthy design.
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@txcrnr said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2945896#Comment_2945896
On the contrary, I could ask you to prove WHY she is not overpowered. And before you go for the classic, "burden of proof" argument, when something like Nurse's power is common knowledge, the burden of proof I would argue should be on the person DISAGREEING with everyone else.
Burden of proof is on the one disputing from what is the norm. But I also don't mind if it'll help you become a bit more educated on the matter. Endlessly shifting the burden back and forth is pointless anywho.
Competitive play setting (standard restrictions): Nurse averages out to a 2K on an even map, slides to 1-3 depending on what other map is in the current tournament rotation. All DBE (Dead by eSports) tournaments (which are the majority) can have VODs found on YouTube and/or Twitch. There are dozens upon dozens of tournaments, some with rule/map variations and others, but most of them are more or less the same guidelines/same few maps used per killer. (For instance, Nurse rotates between a few different maps so it doesn't become boring to watch. Same as other killers. Weaker killers have singular best map for them only.) Example VOD link, so you know how to look around for them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vb00wvwUez4 (Oracle and Agony are among the best teams in the world, if you didn't know)
Competitive play setting (all restrictions removed): Nurse averages out to a 1.92K. https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/297338/statistical-evaluation-of-an-interesting-tournament/ is a link to Wwispy1's tournament where Nurse appeared in 14 games (lost 6, tied 5, won 3). There's others out there as well, but Wwispy1's is the most 'big'/notable one.
Non-competitive play setting: In a non-competitive setting, YouTube uploads are usually only wins/win-streaks. If you want to see full gameplay VODs against everyone rather than highlights, checking Twitch VODs is better for this. Additionally, as BHVR has also stated in the Q&A stream here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pz7f_WPutq8&t=2143s , extremely good players are soft-capped because otherwise queues will take literal hours. This results in said very good players being matched with worse players. Obviously, this will be pretty one-sided. This is the reason extremely good players (such as some of the better-known content creators) will win the absolute majority of games regardless of killer/survivor. The opponent(s) they are matched with are usually not on the same level. With that in mind, non-competitive even matches are generally pretty rare for players of that level. Here are several examples of very good players versus other very good players. Scrims are not included, as they are done under tournament rules. Non-scrim KYF is, as that is a thing content creators do anyways (playing KYF with each other). The 1v1 examples are to show that good players understand how to mindgame against a Nurse in chase. It's pretty simple to tell when a Nurse or survivor against a Nurse is good based off how they react and mindgame each other, since competitive level players still give a frame of reference for how people chase as and against Nurse. Competitive is pretty meaningless for anything else, but chases are more or less the same and can be learned from.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4ZHFVowqws Fubs vs partial tournament SWF in regular non-tournament KYF
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_R-gkMwKpA SupaAlf on MMR Test Day 3 (equal skill matches prioritized over queue time)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnjfG_sLfQg SupaAlf 1v1s (Yerv/SuperAaronNova/Vizion) - Vizion's runs are particularly of note here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ig_iQ5S-ABA SupaAlf 1v1s (Fubs/Sweh/Otz)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30TKsT-s8Y8 Ayrun's chases versus a decent Nurse
If you would still like to dispute this, please give conclusive counter-evidence that Nurse consistently overperforms against players of equal skill on an even map. If she is so obviously overpowered as you say, there should be an abundant amount of proof.
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@GingerBeard said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2945528#Comment_2945528
Sorry I might misunderstanding your first part or you misunderstood me. What I was referring to when I mentioned the things we don't have are the content/changes that the devs thought of/made and tested, but decided not to implement while never mentioning it to the community. Only the devs know of that stuff and whether nurse was a factor in cutting it. Until the devs come out and say something, its all just speculation on our part and i'll keep it in my mind as a possibility.
All I was saying is it makes no sense for people to assume that it is true like some people do until devs say so, like you said. The stuff that is confirmed is that multiple perks good for her have been buffed and released. It might be possible what you said is true, but without confirmation, it's pointless for it to be brought up in a discussion. "Well (insert anything) is actually (problematic/holding back balance/overpowered/etc) but it's just never been proven." You could make that statement about literally anything, and it would be equally meaningless. You see what I mean?
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@txcrnr said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2945863#Comment_2945863
These people are just blind to how powerful Nurse is, and I am certain it is just on purpose to try to shut down this argument. No actual top tier player in this game, like, 4k hours or more, would ever disagree that Nurse is by far the most powerful killer. They just want to pull a "Gotcha!" moment when we admit that we haven't spent 40 hours a week researching to prove that Nurse is the best; and why would we? Every reasonable person on here knows that already.
There is a difference in being the most powerful and the best killer, and being overpowered/broken/etc.
She is the former. She is not the latter. If you want to dispute that, give actual proof or your claims are meaningless.
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@drsoontm said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2945597#Comment_2945597
Side question, nothing to do with this thread.
I know very well the way you argue. Are you per chance a scientist or maybe a zetetics?
Not myself, but my parents are, and I myself have always wanted to try and pursue discussions rationally, and I've taken a lot of ethics/debate-related classes. I understand I still have shortcomings like my sarcasm/passive-aggressiveness and I am working on it.
@Thusly_Boned said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2945822#Comment_2945822
Well, yeah, obviously it goes both ways. But there's never only one possible outcome, so either side will always have a chance. The Nurse just limits your options as a surv more than the other killers do.
Again, Nurse can adjust in ways other killers can't; get near the surv with the first blink, you've got more. Anyone who has faced good nurses knows the feeling of having few options at loops. It almost becomes a coin flip in many cases.
That is why Nurse is good design, because it limits chase to which player made the more successful mindgame read or bait. Both sides always have options, and there are no auto-win nor auto-loss situations other killers will face. For instance, a survivor has no way to avoid a 115% killer in a dead zone, because the killer will just simply walk up and get a guaranteed hit. On the other hand, M1 115% killers when against strong tile setups such as a long-wall jungle gym or more against experienced survivors, will lose a great deal of time to the point the chase itself can very easily not even be worth it to try there (and thus, an auto "loss", because chase must be dropped with nothing to gain).
In comparison, Nurse can outmaneuver any loop regardless, but she cannot auto-win any loop either, as the only way for her to land a hit is to make a successful mindgame read/bait against the survivor. Chasing is not about just double-backing or not, there are many different ways to mindgame both with and without LOS. This is also why Blight is top-tier, he can mindgame almost all tiles in the game as a 50/50, much like Nurse can. Killers that cannot do this are subpar, it's not that Nurse/Blight/etc are excessive.
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What if I told you that idea is extremely abusable and is why it's not implemented for hooks in general?
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@GoshJosh said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2944738#Comment_2944738
Evidence of what? Here is a screenshot from this past March, where I escaped against Nurse as a solo survivor. I had the most points and don't even think I was downed or hooked once. You can see she had BBQ, Starstruck, Agitation, Infect and the purple range add-on (the commonly complained about Nurse build and add-on). The other three survivors had Flashbang, essentially a meme perk. One brown toolbox that I don't think I used. She got one kill.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/TO88CF4I7DLY/image.png
Now, what more evidence do you want?
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2944737#Comment_2944737
Sure, I'll custom match you. But why can't you show us these 10-win streaks against people the game determines are of your own skill level? I dunno, I might be too good for you! Don't want you to get creamed too hard. I'll be livestreaming too, if we do.
Anecdotal individual evidence isn’t proof either way. If Puppier wants to claim Nurse is overpowered, they need actual conclusive evidence, not personal anecdotes. You’re free to still compete with them but it won’t determine anything either way.
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@txcrnr said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2945555#Comment_2945555
Your argument is also a fallacy. We all know that nurse is over performing; you are just asking for unnecessary statistics to prove something the community already knows and agrees on. If you genuinely think she’s not powerful you’re in the tiny, non-vocal minority. Everyone at the top level agrees she’s absurdly powerful and the strongest killer when mastered, the argument is simply whether or not that power is justified by a somewhat difficult to learn ability. I’m not going to spend 200 hours analyzing games to prove something everyone but you already knows.
??? First of all, that is false. Second of all, many people thinking something does not make it true (bandwagon fallacy). Many people thought the Earth used to be flat. Also people at the top thinking something does not make it true (appeal to authority). Scientists of the past used to think the Sun revolves around the Earth. Give your evidence, or there is no reason to believe your supposed claim. The reason people trust scientists on things like medicine is because there is proof of the medicine’s safety and efficacy, not because they’re a scientist.
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@txcrnr said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2945515#Comment_2945515
Aight so does this apply to everything or just nurse? Do we have to now do a peer reviewed study on why Dead Hard is a good perk? On why Circle of Healing is OP? On how Spirit overperformed pre-nerf?
Making up strawman isn’t helping your case. If you want to claim something is overpowered, then you should have proof to back up your claims.
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@JohnWick1654 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2945538#Comment_2945538
you call camping/tunneling playing seriously?
??? They are strategies acknowledged by the devs who have balanced this game around the usage of those strategies.
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Okay?
There's nothing wrong with people playing seriously or bringing the strongest builds.
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@GingerBeard said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2945489#Comment_2945489
You very much might be right, but unless someone can provide me a recent statement from the devs then i'll still question it. I'm not convinced that the existence of good perks on her is proof that they don't need to consider her. You also need to think of all the content/changes that we don't have, and if nurse played a part. This is something that only the devs can tell us.
It's not possible to prove non-existence without an explicit statement. The only way to prove something does not exist is to know literally everything else, which is not possible. The burden of proof would be for someone to prove that the devs are actively hampered, not the other way around.
Also, the only "global" buffs that are even needed is stuff like reducing giant map sizes (also bad for Nurse, who only crosses overall distance at roughly same speed a 115% does by walking), adjusting survivor spawn locations (ie, all together or two pairs instead of separated, which doesn't really matter because decent survivors will spread out anyways at the start), and increasing base regression (0.25/s to 0.5/s and Ruin to 100% to match so it's not basically useless, but Nurse either doesn't bother kicking a gen anyways or uses stuff like Ruin/Pop/etc for primary regression so it's also not really much of a difference). And it's not like any of those three are ultra-crucial or the game is unplayable. It's just some stuff of note to get around to eventually, along with stuff like Torn Bookmark/range addons being dumb on Nurse, Alchemist Ring, Midwich being awful and tiny, etc.
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@txcrnr said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2945489#Comment_2945489
the “conclusive statistical evidence” you’re asking for is the reason BHVR nerfed Pig multiple times. It’s clear that Nurse over performs at high levels despite her global kill rate being low.
So, it should be quite easy to find conclusive statistical evidence she consistently over-performs against players of equal skill on an even map then. Let me know once you have the proof to back up your claims.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2945501#Comment_2945501
But Nurse can literally attack instantly upon blinking, you don't have to blink, stop, then attack, you can, but that's not optimal. You attack AS you blink.
Blight works in exactly the same way. You can attack AS you dash, or you can dash, then attack. The former is treated as a special attack, why not for Nurse?
Because there is a difference with moving, and attacking, and attacking USING the moving. The parallel would be if Blight could attack after a Slam but before starting another Rush. Or if Nurse could attack by blinking through the survivor (as in the flying Nurse itself is an attack). Also attacking instantly like that isn’t even the best decision always for Nurse, cause any sort of mindgame will make it a whiff instead. You cannot do a regular attack as Blight after using a Rush until you completely fatigue and go back to normal. The two are not comparable. You cannot attack with Nurse's power. You can attack with Blight's power.
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@Seraphor said:
The one thing I do kinda agree with is making blink attacks special attacks.
This is true for Blight, so why not Nurse?
Because Blight attacks with his power, and Nurse can’t. Blight’s power is movement and attacking with the movement itself. Nurse’s power is only movement. Then she attacks separately after.
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No. I do not care. Get over it. I want to run other perks.
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Please give conclusive statistical evidence that Nurse consistently overperforms against players of equal skill on an even-sided map. If she is so obviously overpowered and uncounterable, this should be very easy. She is not a guaranteed win, nor is she uncounterable. Matchmaking putting better players against worse players for the sake of queue times is not a balance problem. You can look at how good players loop a good Nurse for an idea of how they mindgame back even without cutting off LOS. A subjective dislike is fine. Objectively claiming she is overpowered needs support.
@GingerBeard said:
The main question I have is, is the existence of nurse negatively effecting balance for the rest of the game. Do the devs need to consider her when making new content or balance changes?
This is a commonly-regurgitated myth. Nurse has been out but this has not stopped significant buffs to perks such as Hex: Retribution/No Way Out/Deadman’s Switch, all of which are extremely good on her. It also has not stopped perks extremely good on her from coming out, such as Pain Resonance, Deadlock, Floods of Rage, Starstruck, so on and so forth. Killers do not really need global buffs in the first place, and the only ones they do would not be an issue on Nurse.
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Just cause it shouldn’t be used as a frame of reference for balance doesn’t mean there aren’t things that can be learned from competitive. For instance, competitive shows how good survivors loop a good Nurse evenly. Competitive also shows tournaments with no restrictions whatsoever leads to Nurse getting a negative killrate average (1.92/match). Which proves the whole “good/god Nurses are unbeatable” is just untrue, and is the fault of matchmaking instead.
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Shadowborn FOV slider please 👉👈
The only loss is stuff like hiding beside a window which doesn’t work against experienced players that will check for stuff like that anyways. Also helps with headaches and motion sickness for some. It’s not like it would majorly affect the game in the first place.
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@MrPuppier said:
If there is anyone else to cry to, let me show them how "balanced" the Nurse is. Just find 3 people like you who think she is "balanced" and let's play custom game once. You call me a rookie, you question my game experience, and I'm judged for a word I didn't say, but no one accepts my invitation. You're ridiculous. If you think you're better than me, prove it. Just prove it. Don't judge me anymore. I'm inviting you to a custom game, and you're running away without saying anything? Lmao. Let me prove to you how "balanced" she is. We'll take a screenshot of the endgame and throw it in the discussion title, so everyone will see that Nurse is very "balanced". What are you afraid of? After all, you say that even the "good" players barely do 2K with the Nurse, and I'm a "rookie". I claim that I will do at least 2K, which must be impossible for a "rookie" like me. And yet you are afraid and run away. Come on, come on, and I'll show you what a "rookie" Nurse can do.
Please show conclusive statistical evidence that Nurse consistently over-performs against players of equal skill on an even-sided map to back up your claims. Clearly, she is so overpowered supposedly, so gathering a lot of evidence should be quite easy. Anecdotal experience and individual gameplay is not proof. Your aggression is pointless and gets you nowhere.
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First of all, something being the strongest doesn’t mean it needs a nerf. That makes zero sense. There will always be a strongest because that is only ever a relative term.
Second of all, she only has 3 problematic add-ons (Kavanagh’s Last Breath, Heavy Panting, Torn Bookmark). The others are a non-issue or meme-tier.
Third of all, Nurse’s blink attacks being special attacks make no sense gameplay-wise. She cannot attack with her power the way someone like Blight does. She can only move with her power, and then do a regular M1 after.
Fourth of all, Nurse using Exposed perks isn’t problematic in the first place, and killing perk diversity when there’s no balance issue is absurd.
Fifth of all, Nurse doesn’t need a rework or a nerf (other than to the aforementioned three add-ons). She performs balanced when against players of even skill on an even map. Matchmaking putting better players against worse players is not a balance problem. By that logic, every single killer and survivor is OP because good players will win most matches.
If you want to make the claim that Nurse consistently overperforms against players of even skill on an even map, please include actual conclusive evidence of such. Otherwise, there’s no reason to listen to arbitrary opinions on performance when nothing backs it up.
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@MrPuppier said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2935178#Comment_2935178
And you didn't provide any evidence. But I asked you for proof. If you don't have a proof, don't talk to me anymore.
DBD forum user understand burden of proof (impossible)
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Why would I waste a perk on one of the worst survivor item types? I face a wall or kill the people nearby.