SammyWasabi
SammyWasabi
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/900375#Comment_900375
That's true, those are 2 other abusable situations.
Deactivated once gates are powered or doing any interaction other than pallets, windows or healing?
I would recommend my idea, which is a tad extreme.
Here's one that isn't as extreme
Getting grabbed no longer procs Decisive Strike
Decisive Strike no longer procs during endgame
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@Thatbrownmonster said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/900371#Comment_900371
Well if the survivor saved the DS till the end I can understand and that is fair
But just having ds getting deactivated after hooking someone would greatly make the game better for the killer
I can agree, but I feel like the only time the hook cancels DS idea would be used when everyone is slugged, and you're just killing them on hooks.
I agree the idea is good and would definitely improve killers lives, but it could still have those abusable situations, I mainly wanted to make it so it actually countered tunneling.
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@Blueberry said:
Lasts 40 seconds, deactivates if a different survivor is hooked. Fixed.
Now it counters tunneling but isn't as abusable.
I like the idea of shortening the timer, but the hooking another survivor part I can't say would fix it.
Locker and endgame cheese would still be possible, just might have a few less of those situations.
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@Thatbrownmonster said:
For anyone defending ds, I recommend playing killer on high rank
100% chance at least 2 survivors will have it and it feels really cheap to go after someone and down them and still get hit with a ds by a survivor you hooked 20 seconds ago
I suggest that it loses it's effect once you hook someone else
I can agree with this mostly, even at lower ranks (rank 7-10 where I usually leave my killers) I see plenty of Decisive Strikes.
The problem with having it deactivate when hooking another person, wouldn't completely remove locker and endgame cheese.
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@DeDoeH said:
Here is what I think of DS:
Decisive Strike currently is in a better and fairer spot than it used to be.
DS is, as it has alyways been, easily one of the very best survivor perks. There is no better option for that slot. It is vastly superior to most other survivor perks.
It is somehow meant to counterplay tunneling...yet it does so much more. It is very strong in many situations in which the killer does not actively tunnel or camp. Here are a few examples:
- when a person is on the hook near an open gate, having DS up is a free escape
- it makes bad survivor play successful as in: I can run right past the killer unhook in plain sight and I know that we both have DS up, so even if somebody gets downed he will either have a free health bar or the killer will have to wait 60 secs (60 secs is an eternity on R1)
- from my experience the number of people running DS is a rather big factor on how good a game is going for the killer - in games when I am NOT camping or tunneling
- in fact I would argue that the perk -despite being meant as counterplay to tunneling- is still the best choice for its slot when you are not tunneled.
What could we do?
- disable the perk once all generators are done. If you have manageed to come this far, you have not been tunneled to death. An anti tunneling perk should not give you the ability to escape in that stage of the game.
- DS is only useable by the last survivor who was hooked
I feel that these changes would leave the core anti tunneling idea intact but would weaken the perks ability in other situations, thus making it more situational. (comparable to Adrenaline)
I can agree with everything in this post, it is meant for anti tunneling, but it is abusable in other situations. The devs had great intentions but it turned out wrong when they made it for countering tunneling. Slugging is unfun for both sides, using moris is unfun for survivors, waiting next to a locker is unfun for killers, no one wins in the situation.
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@danielbird11 said:
no just deal with the stun survivors have been nerfed enough already. I'm sorry that you cant get a 4k every game because just maybe you were not skilled enough. The survivors did all the gens before you could kill them and then opened the gates and did all the work to get out. But no killers want even more ways to get second chances. As if noed was not enough killers can do the d**k move and camp as well. I'm sorry for being upset but killers cant just complain and get everything survivors have nerfed to the ground just like survivors cant complain to get everything killers have nerfed as well. P.s Im not trying to be mean to anyone i just wish the game was balanced around both sides and everybody no matter what role they play could have fun and enjoy the game.
I understand you want to be kind and I'll keep that in mind while I'm writing this to also be kind
I hope you understand I rarely play killer, and I don't care about the 4k most of the time. And I understand the frustration with noed and camping. It's similar how some killers are frustrated with certain tiles, BT and DS. I have my opinions on these perks but I didn't want to put them all in a singular thread.
Offering solutions to things are what make the game better most of the time, and allow for discussions on what is the best course of action.
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@WillWolf76 said:
DSis the counter of tunnelling. It was a perk to screw over killers who tunnel one person over and over and over again. They are forced to leave the survivor on the ground and waste 60 seconds which time is precious in the game or pick them up, get stunned, and chase all over again wasting an unknown amount of time based on the killer skill, survivor skill, and the map. DS is great the way it is, to counter tunnelers.
It is meant to counteract tunneling, but it doesn't ~90% of the time.
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Nerf BHVR
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@Begayviour said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/898445#Comment_898445
Don't tunnel off hook then go for unhooker? ######### easy
Give the survivor a health state because they hid in a locker and have a perk. Also this assumes the hooker is able to be found, and most of the time, this is because the survivor with Decisive is playing stupidly and on the offense. The main issue is that I don't go back to the hook to attack the unhooked, but they run next to me so what am I supposed to do? Not attack them? That's stupid. A perk shouldn't be able to make you invincible from being hooked for 60 seconds. It should be a safeguard incase you are actually being targeted, like unbreakable.
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@Killernewb86 said:
I never understood killers that slug/leave people on the floor because of a 5 second stun.... just eat the DS and move on. Once DS is out of the way that survivor starts playing extremely carefully and you can tunnel them if needed.
The DS will be more annoying late game when you’re trying to secure some kills. So get it out of the way as early as possible. :)
Giving the survivor a free escape to counter a perk, ruining most of your pressure, and allowing the survivor to run to a tile shouldn't be a solution to a problematic perk.
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@Begayviour said:
So all survivors hide in lockers and you can't get them out?
Survivors with Decisive Strike hide in a locker to only allow them to be picked up, the only counter that involves you killing them while they're in there is to wait for the timer, which isn't fun for both sides and ruins the killer's pressure.
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@Mediva said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/898047#Comment_898047
I would say DS is easy counterable too wouldnt you all agree? You could, i dont know, just not tunnel? Maybe an idea? Or bring a mori, since that makes pretty much sure you wont have DS in your game cause you dont pick them up anymore after first hooking. Or, do what all killers do...slug? To me I find it silly that we actually talk about a perk that has a one time use only and then deactivates, while all counterable things can be done undefinately without drawbacks. And for the persons saying they dont Tunnel...yeah you guys do. If you didnt, you wouldnt even notice the perk anymore. There is no way you follow a healthy survivor, that obviously isnt standing still, hit him twice, get looped for a bit, down him...hang him and then go back to search for the other person in less then the 1! minute that DS is active. If you are really that good, what do those 5 seconds matter? If you can down 2 people, hang one in less then a minute, you can onbiously waste those 5 seconds easily. Stop complaining about a perk that actually should be buffed to counter all tunnelling and should actually be activated after every hook for a minute. Then it really is an anti tunnel perk.
DS can be easily countered, unless they're next to an open exit gate, or in a locker. And also, just because it's a one time use doesn't excuse it from being an invincibility from being hooked for 60 seconds. I don't think hooking another person, them getting unhooked, running towards the hook, me having to down them and slug, lower my points and emblems, and making the survivor and me annoyed, and then I either have to run away, allowing a pick up, and unhook. Or I have to camp, lowering my emblems, removing fun from both sides, and taking points away from both sides. No one wins.
The only true counterplay for when they are in a locker, is to wait, again, no one has fun, no one gets more points, and both sides are frustrated.
And seriously, you suggest using an problematic offering to counter a problematic. And it again, ruins my emblems, points, and fun. Same for the survivor.
The perk often is used for playing aggressive instead of it being a safeguard against tunneling, just like unbreakable. Its a safe guard against slugging, not supposed to be used aggressively.
Tunneling is a Boogeyman term, there isn't a clear set timeframe or requirement to call it tunneling, the changes I suggested would make it actually against tunneling.
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@WhoDatNinja said:
It seems like baby killers are complaining when its not their way. DS is fine the way it is. Leave it alone. Do like what baby killers do and slug. I hate when killers do that cause its a big disadvantage against survivors cause then killers are like taking the game hostage but what can we do its not gonna change. Id say leave DS and work on something more important.
1. I don't play killer too often.
2. Slugging is easily counterable
3. Most of the time they will immediately jump into a locker
4. Slugging doesn't make anyone happy, killers and survivors get less points, survivors sit on the ground holding recover, and killers losing points for having to avoid a second chance perk when they weren't tunnelling.
5. Saying "work on more important things" is not an argument. The perk is problematic, we should fix it.
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@goat10em said:
Why would you want to? That does not follow the DBD strategy. When something "needs" fixed that is what you're supposed to do, just make it useless. Look at legion and nurse for examples.
This wouldn't make the perk useless, it would make it so it can't be abused and so it would counter actual tunneling.
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@HarryToeknuckles said:
It's fine the way it is. It's a perk, meaning an advantage or something extra when used properly. Otherwise, what's the point? Might as well just remove all perks, because in certain situations they create an advantage.
It's not that it grants an advantage, it's that the advantage it gives is abusable in some situations, and there isn't counterplay in that situation like knocking somebody down and they are next to an open exit gate.
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@Begayviour said:
Just don't get to endgame and learn how to play killer and don't tunnel
A survivor doing a generator and whenever you attempt to attack him he goes into a locker, not sure what the counter is except for wasting time to camp the locker.
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@fcc2014 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/896206#Comment_896206
Should every survivor perk be garbage? It helps prevent being tunneled. It has a 60s cool down, Slug if you don't want to get hit with it.
This is assuming they want the perk to be garbage, DS prevents tunneling a good portion, but some times, you're not getting tunneled, and you immediately get on a generator, and when the killer comes over, you just hop into a locker, he wasn't tunneling, he was off chasing and hooking other survivors, but he still got punished for "tunneling"
And at Endgame, where they get downed outside the gate, you can't slug and then kill them, because they'd just crawl out. These ideas I proposed are to make the perk actually counter tunneling.
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@Micheal_Myers said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/892124#Comment_892124
Well yeah..
Technically.
And jumping off the hook as the last survivor is unlikely.
And D.S. doesn't activate in E.G.C that often. I would know, I run it. Lol.
Plus Claudettes... who vanish kinda want attention in the E.G.C sometimes...
Another problem is when they pull the survivor off of a hook with DS up next to an exit gate, if I pick up the person that was just on the hook I would be tunneling correct? But if I picked up the survivor with DS, I would get stabbed, which means I was tunneling. Taking hits for team mates because you have uncontested invincibility from a pickup for the duration, I don't think the killer chasing other survivors and you running into the killer to take hits is tunneling.
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@Micheal_Myers said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/892080#Comment_892080
A locker..? Well were you tunneling them first? Then theres your answer.
Well when they're the last person in the trial, or the person who saved them is a Claudette who vanished, can we call that tunneling?
What if they're taking hits for their team when they have DS, is that tunneling?, What if they're doing gens in my face and they get in a locker when I get close, is that tunneling.
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@Waffleyumboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/892072#Comment_892072
if they hop in a locker you can just walk away, or maybe take the stun. These are both much better than sitting still for 30+ seconds
I can agree those bandaid the problem, but they still throw off your game and can cause you to lose a game due to it, I agree they are better than waiting, but waiting is the only true counterplay that allows you to kill the survivor in the locker, which is an unfavorable option. I wanted to propose a change to make Decisive Strike less oppressive in those situations, and make it actually for anti tunneling.
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@Micheal_Myers said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/892052#Comment_892052
Devs ready stated this is not a change they will ever make. It is too unrealistic and unreliable. That would be a Drastic nerf.
D.S. is fine imo.
DS I can agree, is fine in most situations, but there are certain situations where nothing can be done, as I've brought up several times, lockers, hop in one with Decisive, killer either has to eat the stun and throw off his gameplay flow, leave them alone, also throwing off his gameplay flow, or wait 50 or so seconds, which also throws off his gameplay flow, this is generally the main problem with it. I can agree in more situations DS is fine. But some aren't, and we should address that.
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@Waffleyumboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/892047#Comment_892047
Yes these are things DS does. Thank you for telling me. If you don't want DS to be in the game that's your opinion
I'm not saying I don't want DS in the game, I actually like the idea of a perk that helps protect against being targeted, it's just that it allows for people with DS active to hide in a locker and have uncontested invincibility, with the only counter being wasting 50 or so seconds of your time as a killer, which if you know survivors, will most likely allow them to get a significant portion of the generators done.
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@Malkhrim said:
There are lots of things that could be done.
Decreasing the time it stays active. A whole minute of hook immunity is way too much, it punishes killers who aren't tunneling and creates situations where they can leave the exit gates without being possibly stopped. Also, there is no real way of countering it when combined with Unbreakable.
Make so it doesn't trigger during locker grabs (because there is no counter to it).
Make so it get's deactivated when another survivor is hooked (because it means the killer wasn't "tunneling" that survivor).
And also: DS should NOT activate on self-unhooks. There have been plenty of games where I hooked the last two survivors, one of them escaped the hook with that 4% chance and got immediatly downed, but I was forced to wait a whole minute just watching the survivor crawl to prevent the person from getting up again via DS. It's unfun and completely unnecessary.
I agree with this, the part about them unhooking themselves and you having to wait is extremely annoying, and had happened to me both killer and survivor.
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@Waffleyumboy said:
Getting deactivated when another survivor gets hooked is actually a good idea. I feel like the devs might implement this if DS starts seeing too much use again
This could be a great idea as well, and is the most likely that they will add if they ever changed it, but the locker problem would still remain, same with the exit gate problem. It would be a great step in the right direction though.
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@Waffleyumboy said:
Decisive is good and balanced rn. It's no longer a staple and honestly quite easy to counter. If you don't like having people with ds active at an open exit gate maybe you should be less sweaty for kills. They got out, get over it. Survivors have to get over an impossible to find totem
The gate immunity is a part of the problem, another is the fact if you hop in a locker with DS, you're either going to get out free, or you're going to wastes about 50 seconds.
Bringing up other problems that another side has to face isn't an argument either, we can't address every problem in a singular post, I have my beliefs on totem spawns and maybe one day I'll post a thread about it, but for now, DS is on the table. And locker DS is uncounterable except for waiting and having little pressure.
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@thesuicidefox said:
DS is fine.
If you got hit with DS one of two things happened:
1) You were tunneling.
2) The survivor purposely let you down them to DS you. You took the bait. Therefore you got outplayed.
It's really not hard to avoid DS. I slug like crazy when I expect a DS, going so far as to just leave the person on the ground to find someone else. Sometimes I just flat out eat the DS, especially if I'm Nurse or Spirit. Go ahead, DS me, I'll just catch you again in 10 seconds or less.
It's really not hard to get around.
See, sometimes you don't intend to tunnel, and you still get stabbed, I've stabbed killers that have completely downed and hooked a survivor, and came over to me, I jumped in a locker, and stabbed him when he pulled me out. I wouldn't call that tunneling, and the only counter is to waste time and wait, when you're unhooked and you go to a locker immediately, the killer can't do anything about that for 60 seconds. There is physically no counterplay that doesnt result in the survivor getting away within that time frame, the only counterplay is to wait 60 seconds and apply no pressure, it isn't tunneling when a survivor who was saved from a hook to take hits for their friend from the chase and have invincibility from being hooked for the duration of their perk.
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@LetsPlayTogether said:
This thread is hilarious. Why just not remove it and any other perks in the game that dont benefit killers?
This isn't a thread about nerfing survivors to the ground, the perk is problematic in several ways, which I'm suggesting ideas for fun. I am not trying to get survivor's perks to be bad, I want to make them less oppressive in situations where they are uncounterable.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/890393#Comment_890393
Survivors control where they get downed -- not the killer. When I have DS and I know I'm about to go down and the gates are close to being powered (I.E., one generator left) -- I make sure I go down on the side of the map where one of the gates exists in, which is often not very hard, even if the gates are both on just one side of the map, that's at least 3 sides of the map and the middle where you can have access to one gate to escape from in 95% of cases.
Even if a survivor gets hooked far, far away from a gate, the existence of borrowed time as well as the fact many survivors will body block you both towards the hook and will body block for the survivor who just got unhooked is a very real thing and very often happens because if you haven't tunneled at all during the game, that means they're all are going to have DS so if they get downed and rescue the person who just got off the hook, the person who just got rescued can save one other person and again, we go back to square one where they both just crawl away.
Your solution of "just hook them far away from the gate" is incredibly unrealistic against any survivor group who's half decent at the game and isn't lacking a few brain cells. Hoping the survivors are literally bad and stupid isn't a valid counter to the perk, nor does it change the fact that the perk is just poorly designed in the first place where it allows this kind of behavior to be a thing.
Decisive Strike isn't even a balanced perk because it was buffed to stun for 5 seconds due to the fact enduring could be used to counter it as a consideration, and then they took away the counter, yet kept the stun timer at 5 seconds. At the very least, the stun timer should be re-adjusted with the fact that enduring cannot be considered as a counter to it anymore.
This is a very well put together argument and I agree with a lot of this, thank you for being civil as well and giving feedback.
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@TheHourMan said:
DS is fine. The nerf they did to it a while back was exactly the right thing to do.
I agree, the buff was very good, but right now there are still issues with the perk, and I wanted to make it so it counters actual tunnelling, it has a lot of situations where you aren't being tunnelled but you can still stab the killer. This idea is to counteract the survivor playing stupid, I think the change they made was in good intentions and made it a lot better and less oppressive. Thank you for your feedback.
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@Peachbun said:
I personally think DC is fine how it is. It can only be used once, once its used hit or missed, it's basically just a useless perk slot. I use DC because I tend to get tunneled a lot for some odd reason (I dont tbag, flashlight, or point) especially at the beginning of the game with just 1 gen done. But I understand how it can be frustrating when the exit gates are open and they use DC as well.
Thank you for your feedback, I understand that it is a one-time use perk, but it can completely change the course of a game, and allow for invincibility in lockers, making the killer leave them, get stabbed, or wait for DS to be over. And the endgame problem with DS, I agree sometimes it can be wasted, and not used, but the possibility of it is a problem, thank you for reasonably disagreeing.
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This is not a way to challenge their view, please, if you disagree, be reasonable and explain why you disagree.
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@Sleephartha said:
No offense to the OP who seems like a nice person, but this sure sounds like a killer who feels entitled to always be able to get 4ks.
I sympathize with the fact that you're trying to perfect the world you generally play in as killer but if killers didn't tunnel so much, no one would play it. And as noted it's extremely specific to a single use being hit within a minute after being pulled off hook and ten hitting the skill check. There's one situation that a killer can't recover in time to get that second hit - near a door at endgame. The very endgame that is now ridiculously killer-sided because of EGC.
And bear in mind that running a DS perk means they're NOT running something else... maybe something like prove thyself or we'll make it or spine chill or deliverance. So they are hurting other aspects of their game for that one chance that DS pays off and they don't get re-caught.
I'm still amazed that killers have the temerity to complain about survivor advantages when they are living in an era of 3k averages.
Hi, no offense taken first of all, and thank you for the feedback, I also do not play killer, I play survivor most of the time. The main reason I wanted to change the perk or add solutions, is because of the fact there isn't a counter to it when they jump into a locker, or if the exit gate is right next to the hook where they are pulled off. This is to make it less of an oppressive perk, as it can throw off a game's momentum, and another reason I wanted to change it, is because most of the times that I would ever use DS to stab the killer, was when they weren't tunnelling, and I wanted to add counterplay that doesn't require slugging and throwing off your momentum.
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@asergioam said:
I'm a main survivor and to put simpler what I wrote before, it should be something like:
After being unhooked or unhooking yourself, if you are not the last survivor left and no one else gets into the dying state for 40/50/60 seconds, Decisive Strike becomes active if you get into the dying state.
The rest would be the same.
Probably would bring other problems or even change the way tunneling would be made, but at least would give you an escape chance from tunneling as we know it without the abuse of end game "free escapes".
This is also a very good idea, thank you for your feedback, I like the aspect of bring the last person disallows for Decisive Strike to become active.
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@BunnyTheHutt said:
Better solution is too simply have it end when someone else is hooked. That way it actually is meant too be anti tunneling and not a get out of jail free card.
This is what I was thinking originally, but the main issue with this is that it doesn't fix the problem of hiding in a locker and being invincible for the duration of your Decisive Strike, allowing generators to be done. And you could do it a second time after this, downing someone and hooking them allows time for the survivor to run away and it is the same issue, it's a get out of jail free card, this also wouldn't fix the endgame collapse with Decisive Strike. Thank you for the feedback and I hope I may convince you more would need to be done.
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@yandere777 said:
If you are unhooked by another survivor it activates for 60 seconds. If you are healed to full health, take part in a completed gen or down from a protection hit the perk deactivates.
Like this theres still some cheese but there's also counterplay. Getting full healed will basically sorta counter its effectiveness at endgame if you have adrenaline proc off hook. A protection his is obvious, you aint being tunneled if you are literally protecting someone.
This could solve the issue, as you stated yes there would still be cheese, but my solution would still have cheese as well. I like your idea, giving it less synergy with adrenaline and heals could be nice, protections hits could also work very good as well. The completing a generator could also work well. I like the ideas you put forward. Thank you for the feedback.
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@DuckDust said:
Maybe if you're unhooked and someone else is hooked have it deactivate but have it proc every time you're unhooked instead of once a match?
Thank you for the feedback
I still feel like this would have locker and endgame problems, which I'm trying to fix and make it less oppressive. Once again thank you for the feedback.
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@supersonic853 said:
I moreso like the idea of it deactivating after another survivor is hooked over if another survivor is damaged. (Preventing it from being cheesy in endgame would be nice though).
Thank you for the feedback it is greatly appreciated,
The main reason I wanted to make it damage a survivor, instead of hitting, is that it's fairly hard to hook someone fast enough and grab them when they are crawling to the exit gate. I still think it could avoid some problems, but I still feel like lockers and when you're in the exit gate with DS situations would continue to happen. Once again thank you for the feedback.