SammyWasabi
SammyWasabi
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@[Deleted User] said:
I'd rather have to put up with DCs, than having innocent people getting put on very long cooldowns because the game crashes or some other BS happens.
I can agree the bug where I am involuntarily forced to DC is annoying and sometimes the game will just disconnect me. Leaving me with my growing penalty, for no reason.
It's not that rare OP
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I feel which perk is better can depend on the situations.
Against certain killers that can keep people injured through Perks or Powers, like Plague and Oni. Empathy would be a wonderful pick.
For Bond, I use it when I'm solo queue, so if I am ever being chased, I can avoid my teammates while they are doing gens, but 99% of the time they're opening chests.
Empathy was very good in the anti heal meta, but with the Oni in the game, I think healing may become more possible. Just depends where you heal to counter Oni getting a lot of orbs.
I've been seeing a lot of kindred open handed recently, so if you happen to pair it with bond, that's quite the distance.
I think this comes down to the preference and situation in which you're using bond or empathy.
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@DarthRane said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/902987#Comment_902987
If you balance the chase around 1v1 how is the killer supposed to win?
Exactly, the Killer's skill doesn't matter if you balance for the 1v1 in a 1v4 game. but if you balance around the 1v4 for a 1v1 chase, what does the survivor's skill matter.
That's why I'm trying to ask for what the best common ground would be.
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@DarthRane said:
This is probably the dumbest question I've seen so far the game IS a 1v4 I understand your reasoning but the fact remains it's a 1v4 plain and simple if you balance around 1v1 no one is going to want to play killer plain and simple
I'm more or less talking 1v1 as the chase.
Not the game as a whole
The game as a whole (usually) is a 1v4
But the chase (usually) is a 1v1
I'm trying to see what people think is the best middle ground.
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Generator rushing is a Boogeyman term that has no boundaries for what is and isn't.
Generator rushing is from 2 things.
• Killer's lack of pressure
• Survivors simply don't have anything else to do, as it is truly the only objective
There isn't a clear cut definition for generator rushing, neither for camping or tunneling. They are all Boogeyman terms for playstyles that are considered easy to play and use but hard to counter and play against.
Right now the definition I would go with is.
Survivors ignoring several things to complete generators, (not saving team mates and healing at all).
Gen rushing right now is a biproduct of the survivors absolute boredom, they don't have anything else skillful or to interact to. The only other thing is the chase, which unless you're throwing, can only be occupied by one survivor at a time.
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@Dr_doom_j2 said:
Again, the only reason that's the only engaging part of the game is because the devs didn't create anything exciting for survivors to do besides work on gens. Even hiding is the most boring thing ever and it could be so much more engaging as evidenced by Friday the 13th (this game did get some ideas right).
But that's besides the point. Where we're at now as far as actually having a balanced game? The games pretty much balanced already, minus some of the fun of course. If you really wanted true balance in this game, not based on emotions, that would dictate a 2.5 kill rate. At least.
I can agree, the only truly skillful thing in this game is the chase, gens and hiding get extremely boring.
And I agree, we not very far from true balance, we are in an alright spot now, but issues are still here, and discussions and feedback by the community like what has happened here is what is going to fix and solve the issues of this game, if we can adjust certain things with survivors and killers, like certain Killer Powers and perks, survivor items and perks. We could have so much potential in this game and it is incredible to know we are getting closer to this.
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@Dr_doom_j2 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/901146#Comment_901146
That's stupid because individual survivor skill BY DESIGN should not match killer aptitude. You may have been here since day one, Scottjund, but you do not know the first thing about GAME BALANCE, and almost no one does in an asymmetrical game by definition. In fact, I doubt you even have a firm grasp on math based on much of your assessment of the game, because the math matic formula dictates that a killer of equal skill to the survivor team should average 2.5 kills at least!
This game is a non-competitive online horror game. It shouldn't even be about survival half the time for "survivors' it should of be an engaging experience outside of survival alone, but the developers saw fit to go for the easiest endorphin trigger possible by commiting to the simple concept of "us vs. them" when they could have taken an approach to survivor play similar to games like dark souls or Ark where death can pretty much be expected unless you reach the Pinnacle of skill and can to a degree, outplay your teammates.
It's a competition to survive amongst comrades, not a competition against the killer... But the game design philosophy confuses that
He is not suggesting the killer's power should be the same as a single survivor. He's saying we need to find common ground where both sides' skill comes into account and where a chase is a relatively fair match up, of course the killer should have advantages, and they do. But the main problem is we can't do a 1v1 or a 1v4 model without completely ruining the game itself or the only engaging part of the game, the chase.
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@T2K said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/901655#Comment_901655
so what exactly is this thread about then? why come up with 1v1 and 1v4?
The 1v1 and 1v4 are the main aspects of the game, this was mainly to see which side people were on, and how they would justify it.
The main reason I wanted to make this was to get feedback on this premise, and to see what changes we could suggest and see what is most reasonable and optimal.
And I was more for the 1v1 balancing but adjusting some things for objectives, but now I'm more for the 2kill 2survival ratio, it was another way for me to challenge my views and positions.
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@The_Bootie_Gorgon said:
If the killer is chasing 1 survivor, the chase is 1VS1, but the match is still 1VS4. The match will always be 1VS4, until a survivor is eliminated from the match. To balance based on one part of what makes up a match could go horribly wrong with out looking at all the other parts that make up a match.
Exactly, there isn't a good choice, 1v1 balance? Killer loses and skill doesn't matter, 1v4 balance? Survivor's skill doesn't matter and they lose.
We should attempt to get around the 2 kill 2 survival rate, as it is the best we can get without severe overhauls in game mechanics.
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@Zoldyar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/900897#Comment_900897
"That literally is not what happens at all. Survivors can currently do gens vastly faster than a killer has time to complete his objective."
That's untrue because if that was the case then all killers wouldn't have an average of over 50% kill rate.
"They practice and improve at the game like any other game. You balance from the top down, not the bottom up. This is how every other successful game functions."
You said the game should be a 1 vs 4 aspect, so how can they improve when there is no 1 vs 1 skill required for them to play against a killer? So if you are saying they should improve and be capable of holding the killer for a longer time, then you are agreeing that the game should have a 1 vs 1 aspect.
Not only that but how can they improve when the killer is constantly ending chases with them quickly? They are getting little to no feedback on what they are doing wrong because a killer is always meant to win chases from what you said. So how can they improve when they know there chase time would only matter against the killer they are playing with. So when up against a rank 1 or 10 killer, they know they have no chance because a killer is capable of ending chases quickly or winning it regardless of how good the surivior is.
Also since you want killers to get buff for the 1 vs 4 aspect, then killers such as the spirit would have a quicker chase time. Not only that, but killers that are already capable of having a high win rate, would just become even stronger which would just make being a new comer to the game even worst.
So you want the game to be focus on red ranks and swf. So how would solo suriviors and new comers stand a chance when all killers of whatever ranks, when all killers can beat a rank 1 surivior team. This would just make it impossible for new comers and solo surivior team to be able to win. In that logic of players improving, then couldn't you say the same for killers on how the game currently is? Afterall, they just need to improve and get good at the game.
Dead by daylight is different and unique to every other successful game. It isn't meant to be a competitive game, which is also why there is no tournaments unlike other successful games such as fortnite, black ops and e.t.c.
"No, the devs have already stated you should NOT be drawing conclusions from this data as it is HEAVILY flawed and inaccurate. The devs have stated this over and over and over on these forums but posts like these keep coming. There are a multitude of factors this data does not take into account which is why the devs have said this."
That still doesn't ignore the kills a killer is getting from each game. Not to mention if you don't want to count that data, then I can just bring out other data the devs have released such as:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/634/HRH1PFNDS0PC.jpg
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/005/T8FDK11FRBQU.jpg
"No one is comparing a rank 20 killer to rank 1 survivor."
You understand that by you talking about focusing on a 1 vs 4 aspect, there is other things to include such as how well a rank 20 killer would do in comparison to rank 1 surivior team. Afterall, since the game is focus on a 4 vs 1 than there is little to nothing a rank 1 surivior can do because the game wouldn't have a 1 vs 1 aspect to it. So there would be no indication on how a you can tell the difference between a rank 1 surivior to a rank 20 surivior.
"No, just because the game would be balanced around a 1v4 does not mean no skill is required to win the game."
Skill required would make it have a 1 vs 1 aspect because a player would be able to go against another player to equal the playing field. Otherwise if there is a 1 vs 4 there would be little skill involve in which would make it hard to tell the difference between a rank 1 to rank 20 surivior. It's obvious you want killers to get buff, so with that being said, there would be limits to what a surivior can do before in which they can do now. From that limit, it lowers the skill required which would just make ranking pointless because any surivior would quickly pick up on it.
"That literally isn't what happens at all. We have a ranking system. Yes it is a flawed ranking system, but what you saying isn't what happens outside of a swf."
Even though you are not saying it, you are sounding like you are referring to something like that. The game becoming a 1 vs 4 aspect only would just lower skills required to suriviors which would just allow any body that hop on to beat a rank 1 player. There is no reason why they can't because killers that were already strong would just become even more stronger and unfair against suriviors.
"I have literally said that the point is to waste the killers time, I have never said to take that away. A minute? Seriously? If the chases lasted a minute ya'll have completely incinerated that killer with 0 kills unless he stands in front of you facecamping. The game was not designed for chases to last even remotely close to one minute. If you look at chase times compared to gen times this is clear. If your chases are lasting that long and ya'll aren't completely destroying the killer then you are playing at low ranks and your team is doing absolutely nothing."
You want killers to get buff, right? So it's common sense that chase time would become shorter. Also, I never said that you wanted to take it away not refer to it. I was simply saying that chases would last shorter, that's all.
Chase time can last at average against a spirit 35 seconds, so with killers getting buff. You can expect chases to last way less than that if the game changes to a 1 vs 4 aspect. This information was gathered by Scott Jund while using one if not the best surivior map against a spirit. You can see it towards the end of the video.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6Lfi9mH05hE
"It has already been said that these stats are NOT accurate and you should not be drawing conclusions from them, said by the devs. Stop trying to use these flawed stats."
Once again, the state still shows the kill rate of what killers are getting and the devs have not said anything to disagree with what the graph said. All they did say was that conclusion was not to be drawn, they didn't say the graph isn't fact. So that excuse is still invalid. Also it doesnt matter rather or not you want to agree with it because the devs had made a previous stats during August this year in which they never said anything wrong about it. Even back then kill rates were above average against good killers.
"That is not what is being said whatsoever. Making the game balanced around a 4v1 does not make you auto lose to a rank 20 killer. That's just ridiculous."
That is what you are saying because all a surivior can do against a killer is mind game, loop and hide. You wanting killers to become stronger would just make mind game and looping less efficient than they already are from unsafe pallets. Hiding would become the new method which still won't work because there are perks killers can use to track suriviors. So you are pretty much lowering the capability a surivior can do in a game which is why I said a rank 20 killer can beat anyone. Scott Jund already confirmed spirit chase time last 35 seconds at average, so with a buff it would just be lowred even more.
"You do realize that with how short gen times are that for a killer to have a chance of winning he would have to down survivors in 20 seconds or less on every chase right? What you are saying is unreasonable is literally the requirement the killer has to have a chance of winning."
I mean if you look at the stats of how long games last at average, it doesn't seem to be as challenging or impossible as you make it seem. Also that is what you are trying to refer because killers are already making chases last that quickly or around the same time. So buffing them more would just result in lower chase time.
"Oh you mean as opposed to now with all the "fun" the killer is having getting looped for 5 gens? You act like the killer experience is fun in its current state."
So Mori isn't a thing in which can take away a user experience in less than 2 minutes of the game? Face camping and tunnelling isn't a thing? There is way more unfun stuff a killer can also do to a surivior, so I don't get your point. From how you are making it sound you want killers to be able to ruin a surivior experience even more whole allowing the killers experience to become more fun. Otherwise you would have spoke about the un fun things killers can do because you play both side, right? So all I'm hearing is, make killers experience more fun while making suriviors experience worst.
"The game IS a 4v1, so it should be balanced around a 4v1 this is simply common sense."
The game also HAS a 1 vs 1 aspect such as perks, vaults and pallets that a surivior can use to make the game a 1 vs 1 against the killer. So what's your point here?
"Based on your opinions I do not believe you play both sides at high rank. I think if you did your opinions would change a lot."
You are saying it as if you are one to talk about playing both side. You haven't mention once the things killers can do to win games quickly against a surivior. So with things such as Mori still existing with the 4 vs 1 aspect begin pushed more forward. You are pretty much saying killers should get a free win against all noob suriviors which would just ruin the market for dead by daylight since. All you have done is talk about killer without any thoughts or regard to suriviors. I play both side and both side are pretty much as bad as each other. Killers with ultra rare add ons with Mori against a solo team. Suriviors with tool boxes and auto haven map offering against a low tier killer.
You should be charged with manslaughter for how well that was put together.
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@T2K said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/901035#Comment_901035
so in other words we shouldnt balance in terms of 1v1 or 1v4. we should balance whats healthy for a good game experience on both sides.
Correct, it will be hard, but it's the best we can do without an extreme overhaul of certain game mechanics
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@SteelDragon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/111050/which-do-we-balance-around-the-1v4-or-the-1v1
until the minimum completion time of the objective for the 4 is SEVERELY increased we CANNOT balance around the 1v1 aspect. know I do agree that there should be SOME 1v1 balance, BUT the survivor should not be able to loop the killer around for an extended period of time because of a MINDLESS god loop (im looking at you iron works of BS and other loops like that). I forget where it is stated, but you the survivor is a COG in the MACHINE that is your team. you in your chases are supposed to buy time for your team to do gens, here is the problem though. there is some MANDATORY minimum time for the killer to waste that is not during the chase, these are
picking someone up
hooking them
find the next chase which could be on the other side of the map
all these little bits of time ON TOP of the chase he just completed can add up to ALOT of time wasted over 8-12 hooks. now if balance was SOLEY around the 4v1 aspect, it would not be a 4k 0 survival rate, NO. it would still be a decent survival rate FOR THE PEOPLE who believe they are part of a TEAM, not in a SOLO game.
I agree, balancing for the 1v1 or the chase before we can properly adjust certain things would be a catastrophe, adjusting things so the 1v1 or chase would be a relatively fair match up against two equally skilled players, of course the killer should come out on top if they are both equally skilled.
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@ad19970 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/900722#Comment_900722
The 1v1 aspect is still extremely important as well. Survivors in chases need to be able to affect chases according to their skill. And that's what BHVR is taking into consideration as well. That's why it's important for killers to have both powers that help with chases and with map pressure. If the game was only balanced around 1v4, not considering the 1v1 aspect, we'd have multiple killers in this game that would be uncounterable, even though they are not op. In that case killer players would face an entirely different problem, 30 minute queue times.
I also heavily disagree that the killer's skill does not have a sufficient impact on how long chases can go, or even on the match itself. Unless you're playing one of the really bad killers, your skill matters as much as the survivors skill, both when it comes to chases and map pressure. You don't always have to hope for the survivor to mess up. Of course this depends on the map you are playing on and the loops you are chasing a survivor at, but still.
It's probably true that the majority of killers, or at least a fair amount of them, are not viable against extremely optimal survivors teams, most likely swf teams. But these overly organized swf teams are probably like 1% of the community, and a game like DBD can't balance solely around the best of the best. Even those teams can still be beaten if you get lucky, and nobody can play perfectly 100% of the time.
Perfectly worded
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@TAG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/901125#Comment_901125
I mean, that kinda goes without saying.
I think the simplest way to put it is like this: Saying "chases should be balanced around 1v4" does not mean "just make the Killers stronger in a chase and leave the rest as is." It means "balance the game as a whole around the aforementioned premise, chases included."
Well yes I'm not saying just make killers incredibly strong in chases, because killers that are good in chases still can lose from lack of pressure.
It's more or less, make objectives more skillful or take longer times, maybe make it so killers can apply pressure to gets from other things. Maybe make it so survivors have to do something to activate a generator. I'm not sure just yet.
But killers in chases should have a slight advantage, but if a survivor is better than them, they should win the chase.
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@Mister_Holdout said:
You have to account for both. The 1v4 aspect is important to ensure the game is relatively balanced (meaning one side isn't too much stronger than the other).
But the 1v1 aspect needs to be considered too otherwise survivors won't have any fun, which could result in a much smaller player base. In other words, the survivors should be able to have fun as well when playing against killers. Crap like Iridescent Hatchets is not fun because you get downed so quickly lol.
Agreed
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@ScottJund said:
I don't know why people even debate this. You have to balance equally for both. That is the correct and only philosophy. If you balance too far for the 1v4, you begin ignoring the skill of the survivor and if you balance too far for the 1v1 you begin ignoring the skill of the killer.
That's what I've been saying, I'm just seeing what people think is the best and to try to fix things so we could balance for both sides equally.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
The REAL problem I can see with balancing for 4v1 isn't about the core idea. But simply about how it has a false premise.
Specifically that the game is in fact 4 players vs 1 player.
In reality the game only STARTS as 4 players vs 1 player, and then those 4 players become 3, and then 2 and then 1.
Meaning that if the game is balanced around the gen speeds with 4 players alive then the Killer getting an early Kill throws off the games balance.
But that's more of an execution thing and has ways of being fixed.
This is also another problem with the 1v4 aspect.
I agree with this, and this is why I have a general dislike for moris. (Same with keys I'm not an entitled survivor main)
The main reason for the problem is, both sides are correct in their own ways.
The chase is the only skillful interaction between the survivor and killer and is usually a 1v1
But the game as a whole is usually a 1v4
There isn't a clear way to balance except for the 2kill 2escape model. But then again, problems with that.
Devs would need to drastically change the game to balance for either the 1v1 or the 1v4
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@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/901053#Comment_901053
The game as a whole is a collective of several chases, not a single chase.
If you lost the instant the Killer downs you then yeah your skill wouldn't matter if the Killer will win every chase.
But that's not the case, you going down in a chase doesn't mean you've lost the game or even that you've done badly, it just locks in your time for that chase.
In otherwords you skill expression doesn't come from IF you go down, but WHEN you go down.
Stalling the Killer for the entire game and escaping with unbroken is the equivalent of a 1v5 penta-Kill in a game like League of Legends. If it's something you can do with anything even close to consistency then either you are smurfing or there is a HUGE problem with the games balance.
Again this is why I suggested that we make changes to other aspects to make the chase more balanced. And to not lead into getting generators done significantly fast.
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@TAG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/901053#Comment_901053
Because you balance around a whole game, not just one aspect. The chase is one aspect of the game, not the entire game.
Which is why I suggested that they would need to adjust other aspects of the game so we could have chases that were both skilled and fun.
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@TAG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/900992#Comment_900992
If the team collectively is more skilled than the one Killer, the results should speak for themselves, no?
You've pivoted from the chase to the game as a whole.
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@T2K said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/900971#Comment_900971
Ah ok. thx for clarifying.
In base the chase is a 1v1 but only if you look at it seperated and cancle out most of the game. I think looking at it this way is way to abstract.
Well I think thats the case currently. if the killer is skilled and the survivor is also skilled, you wont be able to get chased for extremely long. And imo this is good. I think its impossible to compare killer to survivor skill because they are determined by differenct aspects. Still the Killer should have the advantage in the chase. and I think thats also one reason why the base speed of killers is usually higher than survivors.
I think what you want is to be able to compare survivor skill to killer skill. so that you dont get hooked if your skill as survivor is higher than the skill of the killer. Well at least it sounds to me that way.
It's the main issue of the game as a whole is a 1v4, but the skillful interaction between both sides happen in a 1v1, if we made objectives for survivors something skillful or take longer, we could potentially balance around a 1v1, but there isn't a clear cut answer.
I think we should strive for if you're a better killer you'll win, and if you're a better survivor you'll win. But we would need to change a lot of things to balance around the 1v1 or 1v4.
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@yoi said:
is a 4v1 game, what do u think? balancing the game 1 v 1 would mean every survivor is as strong as the killer, if that ever seems to happen the game would die in that specific moment, actually in red ranks is already dying i wonder why, cause killers de rank (in purpose) to not play agaisnt red ranks.
The chase, which is what your hours and efforts in learning the game go in to is (usually) a 1v1.
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Hey anyone discussing this, found a video from someone that explains why both sides are technically right. I thank you all for the feedback and it has been very fun discussing.
https://youtu.be/V1-32zB3ejY -
@Xerge said:
It's not accurate to say the chase is 1vs1, you can bodyblock, use a flashlight and mess with scratchmarks to interfere with a chase.
Anyway, game should be balanced around 4vs1. @Blueberry already gave some valid arguments.
It could be a 1v1 or not, that's the problem, the game isn't a 1v1 but the chase is supposed to be but it can turn into that.
The game could be a 1v4 but then someone kills themselves on hook.
I do like Blueberry's arguments but in the end right now. There isn't a good answer, we would need to change a lot of things to balance around the 1v1 or the 1v4.
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@TAG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/900977#Comment_900977
I didn't ask you about balancing around 1v4 vs 1v1. I asked you about your assertion that if you balance around 1v4, Survivors would lose regardless of their skill.
Because if I'm 4 times better than someone I'm going to win?
Even if they are better than me mechanically, I still have 4x the power.
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@arslaN said:
The killer should always have the advantage in a chase but I don't agree with people saying that chases should be short and you aren't trying to win. Chases are pretty much the only enjoyable part of the game and this game will die if they make them short.
If you keep outplaying the killer, you deserve to have long chases and if you outplay the survivors as killers then you should be able to end chases fast.
I agree, taking everything into account the killer does have an advantage in chase currently, assuming we aren't on an ironworks window.
I feel if we give killers better advantages to slow objectives or just do something to make it to take more time to do the objectives, balancing around the 1v1 would be a better option. But if we want, we could buff solo survivors to the point where they are comparable to SWF, and we balance around a 1v4 swf, that wouldn't be horrible.
If the chase is ruined by the killer just being 4x stronger than you, and not being better than you. It would ruin the chase, which ruins the game.
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@TAG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/900967#Comment_900967
You are just assuming that to be truth. How do you know you are right?
There isn't a right option to balance around the 1v1 or the 1v4 right now.
We cannot make a definitive answer to what we should balance around currently.
And I do think if a side is more powerful then another side, the side that is more powerful will win if both players and equally skilled.
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@T2K said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/900932#Comment_900932
the chase is 1v1 if you change the number of pallets. The amount is for 4 survivors not for 1 I think.
Why would the survivor skill not matter? Do you think balancing for 1v4 means insta downs in a chase? Pls a bit more context.
1v1 balance, why would killer skill not matter? Maybe balance means for you nerf one side into the ground? i dont get it sry
The chase is between a survivor and a killer, a 1v1 base.
I don't think balancing for the 1v4 would mean insta downs. But it would mean even if the survivor was better than the killer, the killer would still successfully win.
And I don't think balancing for the 1v1 means the killer instantly loses every game. But the killer wouldn't have enough pressure to win the actual 1v4 which is everything else like objectives.
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@TAG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/900952#Comment_900952
If the Survivor is better than the Killer, can they not possibly prolong the chase to give their teammates the time they need?
If the game is balanced around a 1v1, then yes, but if not and balanced around a 1v4, the survivor would still lose regardless of their skill.
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@burntFuse said:
The chase isn't 1v1 unless every other survivor is dead.
Pardon?
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@TAG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/900932#Comment_900932
"If we balance for the 1v4, the survivor's skill In a chase doesn't matter"
What do you base this on, exactly? It seems like you are just accepting this as truth without supporting the idea.
The reason for this is that even if the survivor is better, they will still lose the tile and receive a hit even if they were better, but because the killer is extremely stronger. The survivor can be better than the killer, but still get hit. That is how the 1v4 would go.
If we go off a 1v1 balance, the killer could be equally skilled and down a survivor, but because they didn't kill them fast enough, objectives got completed.
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@T2K said:
1v1 in a 1v4 game? maybe Im missing out something. But even in the 1v1 eg the chase there are other players doing objective. I cant see where a 1v1 is. Only if 3 survs are dead, then you have a 1v1 and only because it resulted out of a 1v4. wth
The chase is the 1v1, but everything else is a 1v4.
If we balance for the 1v4, the survivor's skill In a chase doesn't matter
If we balance for a 1v1 the killer's skill doesn't matter in a game.
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@TAG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/900885#Comment_900885
Balance around 1v4 SWF. Buff solo Survivors to be comparable to SWF. Balance Killers accordingly.
Making solos comparable to SWF is a good idea and would be the path if we were to balance around a 1v4 aspect. Again still the problems of the chase is a 1v1 so why should we balance around a 1v4 in the chase but then we have the argument why should we make the chase a 1v1 when everything else is a 1v4
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/900861#Comment_900861
"You talk about the surivior goal to waste the killer's time to win, but how can they if the killer is always going to end chases quicker than they can do gens?"
That literally is not what happens at all. Survivors can currently do gens vastly faster than a killer has time to complete his objective.
"If all killers was buff to be a 4 vs 1 then how do you expect noob suriviors to win or to understand the game?"
They practice and improve at the game like any other game. You balance from the top down, not the bottom up. This is how every other successful game functions.
"The kill rate already shows killers doing well of getting a likely chance of 2 kills each game, so imagine what the game would be like for noob suriviors if killers were buff even more."
No, the devs have already stated you should NOT be drawing conclusions from this data as it is HEAVILY flawed and inaccurate. The devs have stated this over and over and over on these forums but posts like these keep coming. There are a multitude of factors this data does not take into account which is why the devs have said this.
"Not only that, but how is it fair for a rank 20 killer to be comparable to a rank 1 surivior?"
No one is comparing a rank 20 killer to rank 1 survivor.
"By them eliminating the 1 vs 1 aspect of the game, then any killer of any rank can beat a rank 1 surivior team"
No, just because the game would be balanced around a 1v4 does not mean no skill is required to win the game.
"So how is it fair for a person who spend hours on the game to lose to someone who spent one hour playing?"
That literally isn't what happens at all. We have a ranking system. Yes it is a flawed ranking system, but what you saying isn't what happens outside of a swf.
"The whole point of wasting time is the 1 vs 1 aspect of the game, so taking it away. There is nothing a surivior can do to waste time more than a minute if all killers were buff more."
I have literally said that the point is to waste the killers time, I have never said to take that away. A minute? Seriously? If the chases lasted a minute ya'll have completely incinerated that killer with 0 kills unless he stands in front of you facecamping. The game was not designed for chases to last even remotely close to one minute. If you look at chase times compared to gen times this is clear. If your chases are lasting that long and ya'll aren't completely destroying the killer then you are playing at low ranks and your team is doing absolutely nothing.
"You are also wrong about killers not getting 4k each game because if we look at the statistics, it clearly shows all killers being capable of getting more than 2 kills and 2 escapes. So if they were to buff killers to a 4 vs 1. Then it's common sense to assume the kill rate of all killers will increase massively. Especially Freddy and Spirit who has a 75% chance."
It has already been said that these stats are NOT accurate and you should not be drawing conclusions from them, said by the devs. Stop trying to use these flawed stats.
"Individual experience is another reason for the 1 vs 1 aspect because what's the point playing a game where no matter how much experience you gain, you will always lose to a rank 20 killer."
That is not what is being said whatsoever. Making the game balanced around a 4v1 does not make you auto lose to a rank 20 killer. That's just ridiculous.
"Not only that, but when in chases you chances of lasting is like 20 seconds."
You do realize that with how short gen times are that for a killer to have a chance of winning he would have to down survivors in 20 seconds or less on every chase right? What you are saying is unreasonable is literally the requirement the killer has to have a chance of winning.
"Not only that, but the killer won't gain any enjoyment out of it because there will be no challenge to them."
Oh you mean as opposed to now with all the "fun" the killer is having getting looped for 5 gens? You act like the killer experience is fun in its current state.
"So no one should say the game should only be focus on a 1vs1 or 1 vs 4. It should only be focus on both because thats the closest way of making it balance."
The game IS a 4v1, so it should be balanced around a 4v1 this is simply common sense.
Based on your opinions I do not believe you play both sides at high rank. I think if you did your opinions would change a lot.
You're acting as if you actually don't play both sides, you're arguments don't work because there isn't an answer to it, you cannot balance around a 1v4. You cannot balance around a 1v1.
If we were to balance around a 1v4 aka equally skilled survivor and killer, killer would be 4x as strong as that survivor.
But the chase isn't a 1v4.
The game isn't a 1v1
You're not right, no one is. This is simply what you think. This is not a subjective argument, the chase IS a 1v1, everything else is a 1v4.
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@Hag.is.Dtier said:
1v4, killer is supposed to stronger than individual survivors. It's the core of an assymetric survival horror game. Most of the problems with this game stem from the "gen rush" issue. The survivors main objective (gens) is boring and too easy. Once that and the map designs are fixed then the devs can hopefully, balance the game properly.
We can't balance around a 1v1 chase yet because of maps and tiles, generators relatively easy completion, if we fix most things in the game, a 1v1 balance or 1v4 balance may be possible, but currently there isn't an answer that is right
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/900824#Comment_900824
"If the killer is balanced around the 1v4, the survivors skill is ignored."
No, it's not. It just means they will be able to drag the chase out a little bit longer the more skilled they are.
"But we can't balance around the 1v4, because the entirety of the time you put into learning a killer and survivor is for the chase."
Of which allows you to waste more time in the chase so your teammates can get more time on gens. That makes complete sense.
"There is a 1v1 mode, it's called the chase."
The game is about 4 survivors trying to escape, not 1 individual survivor. You're wanting to balance around the experience of 1 individual person rather than the game as whole. This logic ruins the games balance.
The survivors skill will be ignored, if we balance around a 1v4, the survivor could be better than the killer and still lose.
If we balance around a 1v4, survivors hours and time they've spent putting into the game will be wasted. The only other interactions require the holding of a button and sometimes pressing another button
The game is a 1v4, but the main interaction in the chase, which is why killers need to be stronger outside of the chase or something needs to be done to stop generator completion while a chase is happening.
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@Skizor said:
Most of the balance issues I feel come from the inherent disconnect between the survivors acting as a team with coordination(SWF) and without(A group of 4 randoms). It becomes much harder to balance perks and killer powers when there is so much variance between how people will cooperate in any given match. There is no way to know what your other fellow survivors will bring to the table unless you are SWF and with that when you are organized you can win with minimal losses(Assuming that a killer is of equal skill to the survivors) because the game is not balanced around total cooperation.
I agree, if we balance around 1v4 swfs, solo survivors quit. If we balance around 1v1 solo survivors, killers quit. If we balance around 1v4 solos, solo survivors quit and killers quit. There isn't clear cut solutions.
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@Zoldyar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/900722#Comment_900722
You talk about the surivior goal to waste the killer's time to win, but how can they if the killer is always going to end chases quicker than they can do gens? If all killers was buff to be a 4 vs 1 then how do you expect noob suriviors to win or to understand the game? The kill rate already shows killers doing well of getting a likely chance of 2 kills each game, so imagine what the game would be like for noob suriviors if killers were buff even more.
Not only that, but how is it fair for a rank 20 killer to be comparable to a rank 1 surivior? By them eliminating the 1 vs 1 aspect of the game, then any killer of any rank can beat a rank 1 surivior team. So how is it fair for a person who spend hours on the game to lose to someone who spent one hour playing? The whole point of wasting time is the 1 vs 1 aspect of the game, so taking it away. There is nothing a surivior can do to waste time more than a minute if all killers were buff more.
When you speak of it focusing on a 4 vs 1 aspect, then do you expect all killers to be strong enough to beat an swf team? In that case, then how do you expect solo suriviors to win games?
You are also wrong about killers not getting 4k each game because if we look at the statistics, it clearly shows all killers being capable of getting more than 2 kills and 2 escapes. So if they were to buff killers to a 4 vs 1. Then it's common sense to assume the kill rate of all killers will increase massively. Especially Freddy and Spirit who has a 75% chance.
Individual experience is another reason for the 1 vs 1 aspect because what's the point playing a game where no matter how much experience you gain, you will always lose to a rank 20 killer. Not only that, but when in chases you chances of lasting is like 20 seconds. What enjoyment would the surivior gain out of it? Not only that, but the killer won't gain any enjoyment out of it because there will be no challenge to them.
So no one should say the game should only be focus on a 1vs1 or 1 vs 4. It should only be focus on both because thats the closest way of making it balance.
I agree with absolutely everything. There isn't a clear cut 1v1 or 1v4 chase because dbd is such a different game.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/900791#Comment_900791
"If the killer is 4x as powerful, as 1 survivor, the survivor would need 4x the skill to successfully not get hit or go down."
They are supposed to get hit or go down.
"Balancing around a 1v1 in a chase and 1v4 in a whole are both correct. Both have their own merits and are correct in their own way."
There isn't a 1v1 mode, it IS a 4v1. You balance around a 4v1 because it is a 4v1. You don't balance around a 1v1 because it's not a 1v1.
Balancing around a 1v1 when it's not a 1v1 makes the game unbalanced.
Every hour someone spends learning a killer or the survivor goes into the chase. There are very little other things that have a strong learning curve that aren't involved with the chase.
If the killer is balanced around the 1v4, the survivors skill is ignored.
This is an example, but old legion was the definition of ignoring skill, because no matter how good you are, you are going to die. It didn't matter if you were 100s of times better you were going to die.
If a survivor is better than a killer, the survivor should win. If a killer is better than a survivor, the killer should win. But the fact is we can't do that in a game with 4 survivors.
But we can't balance around the 1v4, because the entirety of the time you put into learning a killer and survivor is for the chase.
There is a 1v1 mode, it's called the chase. But the game as a whole, is a 1v4. There is not a correct solution.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/900773#Comment_900773
If the game was balanced around 1v4 that doesn't just automatically not make the survivor skill matter in a 1v1 chase. Their skill is prolonging the chase as much as possible. You don't need 4x the skill.
The goal is to waste time, the survivors aren't supposed to get away in a chase as much as they do now.
If the killer is 4x as powerful, as 1 survivor, the survivor would need 4x the skill to successfully not get hit or go down.
If we're going by prolonging the chase, we can't accurately measure a chase, but let's say we can, the survivor would go down 4x as fast. But we can't measure it. The map tiles decide how long a chase goes on.
Balancing around a 1v1 in a chase and 1v4 in a whole are both correct. Both have their own merits and are correct in their own way.
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@DontKickTheBaby said:
Does this really need to be asked? The game is 4v1 lol
But the only skillful interaction between the killer and the survivor is the chase. Which is a 1v1
But the game is a 1v4
But the interaction where skill is involved is a 1v1
It's hard to choose.
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@MegaWaffle said:
You can't balance around 1v1 when you still have 3 others unaccounted for.
If the 1v1 is "balanced" how are you suppose to handle the other 3 unless you have to forfeit the "win" over to the original person you were 1v1ing?
It could be said the same for in the chase, you can't balance around the 1v4 when you're only chasing 1 survivor.
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@Blueberry said:
"he reason for balancing around the 1v4 makes sense, it is a 1v4 in a whole, but in the chase, it isn't. This formula would also equal (if both sides are equally as skilled) a 4 kill 0 survival rate."
This is already incorrect on concept. That would not equate to a 4k 0 survival in that circumstance.
It isn't a matter of choosing which one to balance around, the game IS a 4v1 not a 1v1, that is objective, not subjective.
The game is supposed to be balanced around a 4v1 as that's what the game is. The reason the game is so unbalanced right now is because they aren't doing that. They care more about the individuals experience rather than the game as a whole which in turn makes each survivor have way more powerful than they should be. This leads to top tier games being about did the survivor mess up or not instead of was the killer skillful. I mention the killers skillfulness being the factor because he is defacto supposed to be the power role in a 1v1, "supposed to" being the key words here.
The survivors goal should be to waste as much killer time as possible before going down, but he should go down. That isn't what we currently have.
I play both sides at rank 1 and I am currently way stronger on survivor than I should be.
The main thing is, the chase is the only skillful interaction between the killer and the survivor, if the game is balanced around the 1v4, the survivors skill doesn't account for unless the survivor is 4x better than the killer.
But if it's a 1v1, the killer must be 4x better. Which doesn't account for the killers skill.
There isn't a very clear choice.
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@coppersly said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/900646#Comment_900646
Her basekit changes had nothing to do with the addons for 5 blink and omega. Literally nothing, it was overkill. thanks.
It was tho, if you needed more than 2 blinks, you weren't a skilled nurse. The cooldown on her blinks for basekit wasn't needed I'll agree with that.
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@Thatbrownmonster said:
She can still be easily looped if you know what you are doing
Let kilelrs have something powerfull for once
we only have spirit,hillbilly and Freddy at the moment
The issue is that the spirit's skill lies within standing still or having good headphones.
Sure, good survivors may beat up mediocre spirits, but the spirit's counterplay is guessing.
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@coppersly said:
You say it like while she's phasing she can see survivors and know exactly where they are but the fact is when she's phasing she is playing almost the same guessing game you are as a survivor now that collision is gone.
Sure there are addons and perks that help tracking but just the same there are ones that help survivors hide those. She's fine now, the nerfs were actually semi well done and left the killer in tact with her identity and fun factor largely unaffected. Nurse is the exact opposite.
She can hear survivor's footsteps, breathing, grass rustling, groans of pain.
Survivors can hear, her footsteps if they're lucky.
Survivors can't tell if she is phasing except for a bug, or an inconsistent method that would most likely get you killed.
It's a complete guessing game for survivors, standing still and the survivor guessing wrong isn't a mindgame.
Stridor insta counters iron will, and allows for louder normal breathing.
Also nurse is still top tier, she just can't be used by people who aren't willing to put in the time to use her and just slap 5 blink or omegablink.
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@TheCrookedMan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/900506#Comment_900506
I like how this is completely ignored
If you are talking about the whoosh, you are not supposed to be hearing that while in the husk's terror radius, this is a bug.
If you are talking about a different noise, this is either something that is again, a bug.
And for anyone saying just look at the glass shards because they glow slightly, schoolgirl outfit, blazing lineage, not consistent.
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@danielbird11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/900356#Comment_900356
Thanks for being nice. Like i said i didn't want to be mean to anyone. I was just a bit angry and needed to vent. I love playing dbd but the stress it gives me combined with the stress from work makes me get so angry. And i'm a very calm person most the time and don't get angry but this game just gets to me somehow. Honestly with over 1000hrs on this game i still wouldn't know how to balance the game or how to make perks balanced. And it's great that community members like you are suggesting ideas like this to make the game better for everybody.
Thank you for being nice. I can understand as well, I have over 1.6k hours and I still don't know how to completely fix the game, if anything, it won't be totally fixed because of the debate of balancing around the 1v1 or the 1v4 which is a whole other thing that is a mess.
I'm just trying to suggest ideas and hopefully change someone's mind about a perk, and make dbd a hopefully better game for years to come.
Thank you for the feedback.
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I can agree. Spirit changes fixed a few things but didn't solve the main issue of no actionable feedback from a skill point of view. It's all just guessing.
And for the people saying "Iron Will". Footsteps and grass.
And for the people saying "Spine Chill", I would like to know how that exactly helps you effectively against a spirit with headphones over the price of 13$.
She needs to have a que to tell the survivor she is in phase, and to make a change to how she can track footsteps, my best suggestion I can think of is make her hearing Omnidirectional while in phase.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/900393#Comment_900393
Those help a little but still don't prevent it from being abused. It needs the reduced timer and deactivate on another survivor hook as well.
Even with all of these changes DS would still be at least A tier and ran by many.
I could agree, which is why I think the idea I proposed originally at the start of this thread are better to make it less strong.