Ryuhi
Ryuhi
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@boomer34 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1582929#Comment_1582929
The difference is the hours, to reach the maximum potential of the nurse requires hundreds of hours, the spirit requires dozens.
But in efficiency are they quite the same.
eh? something is wrong right?
What kind of reasoning is this? Do you see how many killers there are? How many of them have varying playstyles? Require grinding out resources like perks and addons? how THOSE change said playstyles even more?
It sounds more like your core argument is "you should have to dedicate all of your time to a single killer to be successful with them" Which would be the worst possible thing for gameplay variety the game could possible have happen. Keep in mind, there is no training mode. There is no "casual matches." There is no way to try out various perks or addons until you invest the BP into getting them. Every match is trial by fire, so it takes a lot of losing while you learn how to maximize your advantages while minimizing your disadvantages in each match. Killers have to go through this from scratch with every single new killer they learn, while so many survivors refuse to do the same in return.
Want to learn how to counter spirit? play her constantly for a while. See what people do to trick you, or weaken the impact of your power. Learn from how they outplay you, and take that knowledge into your own survivor play. Its much more effective than making this topic for the 9000th time.
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Its amazing how few survivors are willing to puposely lead the killer away from the hook rather than to it.
if they're "camping, proxy-camping" or whatever fun term we use now, you get spotted, and run to the opposite corner of the map. If they chase you? plenty of time for someone else to get the unhook, heal, and fully reset the killer's pressure. Even just by holding W away from the hook, you're removing pressure 90% of the time. If the killer doesn't fall for it and doubles back? you basically have their blessing to work on a gen. Hell, its usually the best time to work on "unsafe" ones, or work to prevent a 3 gen from happening.
Either way, if you actually adapt, you win. Problem is, everyone wants to be an urban evading claudette and go for a panic unsafe unhook when they get caught because they REALLY want that WGLF stack. Hell, getting hit immediately after the bad unhook gives them TWO stacks, further incentivizing awful play.
Of course, this exact scenario is yet another example of why Kindred is so powerful in solo queue (and in general,) but people still refuse to run it because "muh small pp build."
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@ALostPuppy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1582654#Comment_1582654
Realise that in a fighting game, you're both on a mostly level playing field, and get several chances to learn what your opponent does and it's also the entire point of the game. In DbD you get like, 2 chances the entire match, and a survivor is nowhere near on the same level as the killer.
Billy, Demo, Huntress, Pig, Bubba, Trapper actually every killer has a power that helps them in chases but you wanna know the difference these killers have over the ones mentioned? They actually have some counterplay to them, meaning an actual learning curve, and the survivor also has a learning curve against them. If the survivor plays against a decent demo or Huntress the same way they play against, say, a Trapper, they're gonna get stomped. But if they learn how to play against these killers, they have some chance to last in a chase longer than 10 seconds. The killer also has options to outplay the survivor even if they're a really good one. With spirit there is no learning curve, you don't care what the survivor does because they have no idea what you're currently doing. All they can do is guess, and all you have to do as the spirit is hold M2 and run up to them using a pair of headphones. This isn't fun for either side, it's boring as hell.
You're right, survivors outnumber the killer 4 to 1. Therefore they should be balanced as 4 vs 1, not 1v1,
Also if you only get 2 changes to interact with the killer, thats a lot more a you problem. Spirit does not have an instadown, so 3 hooks would be at minimum 4 interactions, exponentially more based on healing. Obviously getting left on hook/camped/etc can happen, but maybe ask yourself "why" it happens.
I don't know why i bother coming to these topics anymore. Its always just a "no counterplay" pity party, and any actual suggestions get turned into "It's not a guaranteed escape, so I wont acknowledge it."
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@Brodie said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1579525#Comment_1579525
I get ur frustration, but i still don't see any point to spam and break ma A button if ma team mates are playin so selfish not even attemptin to come for me, it would be different on ma swfs because ik then they would at least attempt to come and get me (I wouldn't let them on insidious bubba, i would hang and struggle in swfs) Not all of us hook suicide in a selfish way, it's as i said ma team mates are not comin, they would rather sit on a gen not botherin thier arse even if the killer isn't face campin, i have kindred on, and they still sit and do a gen close to me then piss off to the next one. I will not reward selfish players by strugglin so everythin can get done so they can escape, not in a solo game anyway.
1. They're to busy urbanin round the map hidin
2. Self carin on sloppy butcher at the other side of the map
3. Sittin on a gen not givin a ######### a team mate is hooked
4. Hidin in lockers
Please don't get me wrong as i have been in games I've went on ahead to rescue people off the hook, and they'll see I'm comin yet will try and 4%, and when i get there they don't struggle, this is what i mean we're not all selfish in our hook suicide, some have very good reasons, and others are just.. idk... twats, i actually meant to put this part in ma last message, but didn't want to give u an autobiography 😐
I get frustrated too when ppl can clearly see i'm comin to rescue them and they're just like ah ######### it sorta thing.. we get punished for points, and the help to try and escape, it's equally as frustratin for team mates as well as killers, both sides are punished... it's not fair in both sides for no reason really hook suicide.. I've already explained ma reasons, but i haven't needed to hook suicide in a year anyway
This entire post can be countered by a single perk: Kindred.
As a bonus, you personally get the same information when you're not the one on the hook!
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@RakimSockem said:
I swear some of the things people say....
All these suggestions where people are like "Oh if they're in a SWF, no one should be able to use the same item"
Or, "They should just deactivate Object of Obsession if a survivor is in a SWF"
Please tell me forum gurus, how do you go about programming this into the game? Like I don't think some people realize how ridiculous it would be to code some of the things they ask for.
So if my friends and I enter a lobby and one of us has a medkit, all of my medkits become inaccessible?
Conditional checks don't even require programming knowledge, just the proper knowledge of syntax and references to make them work within the given language. The easiest way to do it would be to either force a lock (like how they did with killers) and the survivor lock would be that you can't change your loadout after selecting ready. Then if there is an overflow of something, you're unable to ready up as said item/perk/whatever has already had its maximum allotment. If you wait out the timer, it does a force removal of whatever surpassed the limit, and you go in empty handed/minus 1 perk/whatever type of system would be implemented.
Personally I don't think there should be a limit on number of items or anything like that, but I do think some perks should be prevented in SWF due to voice communication completely destroying the design philosophy behind them. Regardless, if they already have code in place to lock killers in at lobby creation, they already have most of the framework to do the same type of thing on the survivor side.
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I mean might as well get comfy with those L's then. I tried.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1577266#Comment_1577266
I didnt want to play thats why I ran into her in was planning on letting her kill me because A she has stridor and a good headset so she could pinpoint my location and B 3rd spirit game in a row.
It still broke a 75/35 she has speed and duration and only started her phase about 3-5 seconds ago. She wouldnt be at disadvantage at a dropped pallet. But yeah a better chance overall. Also at that point I still didnt care because I was dividing anyways 2nd spirit game in a row and she has broken addons.
I like that you are optimistic about adapting being a color blind person must suck but we cant let the devs not know just like a colorblind setting it's nots ggood to let that go.
@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1577270#Comment_1577270
I wanted points trying to max out my other 10 p3 50s I was planning on changing my build up from my usual meta that's why. If you watch my other videos it's usually ds,ub,sb,iw
@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1577273#Comment_1577273
Yeah i understand where you are coming from but the fact she is allowed as a killer is gross and why she hasnt been reworked has me left scratching my head my team was doing the same.
@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1577283#Comment_1577283
I mean judge all you want but as long as she doesnt have counter play I will do what I want.
1) If you're playing SWF, you kinda forfeit the right to call anything on the killer side "unfair." Comms and organization have far less counterplay than anything any individual killer has in the game. You're welcome to disagree all you'd like, but its something you need to get over if you want to get a proper perspective on balance.
2)Yet you were actively playing at a self imposed perk disadvantage, when again, any one of those perks would have helped vs ANY killer. You even have Iron Will as one of the perks you generally run, which does help even WITH stridor (just not as much as without.) Also, if you normally run DS and Unbreakable together, you really should play more without them to help you get better in general (there's a reason its called the small pp build, its arguably the biggest crutch perk combo in the game.) Adapting strategy could be exactly the thing to help you rely on them less. Not only that, but If you die early with WGLF, you're not really getting any BP anyway.
3 and 4) You're pretty determined to not improve from the analysis I've put into the video (as you requested) and the alternatives you can try in the future to help improve your game. If you refuse to learn anything from your losses, you will never improve your chances of victories.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1577236#Comment_1577236
So if you were in there you would not have been able to d ok much either so it does prove something good spirits have no counterplay and I'd say everyone commenting in this thread would not be able to do much in my situation.
I'm not saying I'm the perfect player, I'm simply offering you coaching advice to improve your game when you inevitibly end up in a similar situation in the future. You always learn more from an L from a W if you take the time to reflect on it. I lose chases plenty, spirit or no. But I like to think I'm a lot better at them now than I was 2 years ago, just by learning from my losses. I tend to last a long longer in chases as a result too (including vs spirit), so I guess I've learned some things.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1577221#Comment_1577221
Well they arent great they are good and are much better choices to be made. They can work but are easy to catch on to.
You.... had WGLF. The perk literally does nothing but give you more BP for making (often) questionable altruistic plays. Just take the advice and try them.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1577215#Comment_1577215
No but within the first hit it was evident with how fast and how she didnt unphase when she transverse the map that's called scouting and it was a correct assumption. I'm unhappy because nothing I did would have changed my fate. There was nothing there I could have done to lose the chance she can hear me and has insanely high movement speed and very long duration.
Let's say I throw the pallet with her addons whether I vaultwd or not she was getting me. I'd like to see you outplay that. That's good advice but the killer has a glaring flaw in her power and for some odd reason you refuse to admit that. She has no telegraph no information and yet she holds so much power and is so easy to play.
You mean the first hit thats not included in the video? it starts when you get tagged, so we have no information before that. That said, if you were able to recognize that so clearly in the heat of the moment, why did you fall for her "stand still" trick in the second game? no addons could have had her ability recharge that fast, and you would have gained plenty of distance if you called her bluff.
"Let's say I throw the pallet with her addons whether I vaultwd or not she was getting me." By throwing the pallet, she can no longer go through that bottleneck, and has to go around. Not only that, she could be mindgaming herself if she was already on the same side as you to begin with. You're trying to think in absolutes instead of turning an unfair scenario into a fair one. Again, 50/50 is much better chances than something like 80/20 if you're the 20.
You're also misrepresenting my position: Just because I'm pointing out what you could have done better, doesn't mean I think the killer is perfect. Very, very, very few things in this game are balanced properly, and unfortunately, the hyperbolic vitrol that people cling to when they get outplayed is a big hurdle for the devs to properly process feedback, and hinders the process. As I said in another topic, the argument should be that "the counterplay is not as good as it should be," not that "it doesn't exist." All we can do in the meantime is adapt as best we can, just like how us colorblind players will never get a colorblind mode to help with the blatant disadvantage we play at, so we need to do what we can with everything else at our disposal for as long as the devs continue to ignore our issues.
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@xEa said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1576914#Comment_1576914
I also agree that this video does not proof anything, but honestly, which move could he possible have done there to "counter" her? It was not really in his hand if he got caught or not.
Entirely? no. But again, he could have influenced either exchange vastly more than he did. simply walking in a random direction from the loops would have improved his chances significantly, throwing the pallet in the first chase randomly later during the phase duration would have forced an unfavorable chance to be a 50/50, misdirection and using grass to hide blood could have confused her/wasted time and given distance while her power recharged, etc.
Its not that nothing could be done to make the situation infallible, its that nothing WAS done to make the situation less predictable.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1577203#Comment_1577203
As I explained, those perks are all great vs nearly every single killer, making them very versatile picks.
Oh, also having rechecked your loadouts, you had WGLF and adrenaline, meaning you only had 2 perks for most of the game, and a third if all the gens got powered. Can't tell which icon the left one is but its not kindred, and youre in swf so that would barely matter anyway. dark sense maybe? either way, definitely not helping you in any chases.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1577191#Comment_1577191
No my argument is that you need a specific perks to counter one killer and they're better perks in general. Like meta build sb, iw, ds, ub is better in generally but only has iron will which is countered by stridor you want me to dedicate my entire build on mediocre perks for one killer yeah no.
As I explained, those perks are all great vs nearly every single killer, making them very versatile picks.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1577184#Comment_1577184
Number one both spirits had mother daughter ring the scratch marks didnt matter. I was never panicked I was kinda mad and suprised as it was my second spirit in a row. The things you are suggesting em are guesses if I doubme vault it's me guessing she committed one way.
It's all guesses.
You knew they had mother daughter before the first chase vs them? thats the kind of thing you can't know until at least subsequent chases, and even then, you still would have had better chances being less predictable. The reason why its important to make the distinction that there IS counterplay, and that you are unhappy with how weak it is, is because it boils down to you are placed in a situation that is uncertain, and you are unhappy you cannot force the situation to your favor. Think of it like the way you played, the spirit had a 80% chance of guessing where you were and downing you. Instead of doing what you can to lower that chance, your argument is that you should be able to remove that chance entirely somehow.
What you need to do is learn how to improve your chances in that situation. They still won't be 100% chance of a juke, but if you take each L and focus on what you could have done differently, you will become much more successful in similar scenarios in the future. Thats just how you improve as a player in general.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1577160#Comment_1577160
Yeah but the builds purpose is to effectively counter spirit especially when there are better perks than it.
Then why do you need to rely on those "better perks"? If your argument for not covering a weakness in your own play is "but they're not op enough," then you really should re-evaluate your general playstyle and look for ways to improve on it.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1577135#Comment_1577135
I talked for about let's say 1 minute and sped up the video just mute it if you need to I dont care watch it.
Muted it first time through, unmuted it second time to hear how absolutely frantic you were. The very first chase and down, its not that you couldn't mindgame her, its that you didn't. You vaulted, then slow vaulted back, and kept running from there, giving her nice bright scratch marks to follow while she is still much faster than you. This is pretty easy for her to read, and expectedly led to a down. You would honestly have had more luck even if you just vaulted then walked in a random direction: they specifically removed the spirits ability to "bump" into players while phasing to improve survivors odds with that.
The reason I went back and listened to the audio is because you were clearly in a panicked state, which is something that puts the mindgame in the killer's favor: panicked people tend to be more predictable, I.E. they try to go for the most obvious advantage: and again, you were downed right next to the pallet. Whether consciously or subconsciously, you put yourself in one of the most predictable spots you could have been, especially when paired with all the scratch marks there. If you had done something like the double vault you did (which is a valid attempt,) ran back to the pallet, then walked away from it outside the loop, you would have led her to believe you were camping the pallet, making her much less likely to hit you.
2nd chase, again, running while staying at the loop. That is essentially the baseline expectation for the spirit's mindgame: they're not going to respect the possibility you abandoned a loop and snuck away until you at least try to. The direction she came from wasn't even relying on her power, thats the normal direction a killer runs a T/L loop from.
The rest of the video was... kinda completely unrelated to the topic. from your perspective there isn't really any information we can gather from how the other survivors interacted with her, especially in terms of mindgames. But feel free to take what advice you'd like from this post to improve your chances vs her.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1577111#Comment_1577111
That build doesnt matter when you are using it on the off chance of getting a spirit shes 1 out of the 20 killers lol.
Its a perfectly viable build against every killer in the game though. Its not even as specific as saying use calm spirit in case there's a doctor. Spine Chill trumps all stealth powers, and stacks with resilience for things like vault speed when in a chase (injured) and still provides its bonus when uninjured. Quick and Quiet can be used to trick any killer at any loop with an interactable (even lockers, if you're ballsy and clever enough) and Iron will helps at loops (and hiding in general) vs every killer the second you're injured. They're all good perks, and that build's synergy specifically hinders the things you consider strongest about the spirit.
@SloppyKnockout said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1577111#Comment_1577111
You also presented a blatant strawman as your opening statement. You're no longer a holder of a valid opinion. When you can open a debate without immediately resorting to a strawman (Basically - forfeiting the debate), I'll designate you with another response. Good day, bud.
Oh boy, if you want to hold others to a level you don't even hold yourself to, you have no weight to compare these discussions to actual debates. Read the other dozen topics on this subject if you can see them from that high horse.
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@Waffleyumboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1577086#Comment_1577086
By the outcome not being definite do you mean that players have to guess? The thing about guesses is that they are purely probability and "mind games". "Mind games" are used specifically to describe learning another player's preferred way of playing and exploiting it against them in situations where you would have to guess by knowing which guess is better and more likely to work against that particular player. Note the "situations where you would have to guess" part.
You can argue that survivors have 3rd person PoV but it's not much compared to the wide coverage that killers have in the form of a lunge. The red stain is unreliable because it can be hid. About Wraith, he's a hit and run killer so he uses his power to easily apply injury and leave survivors vulnerable to his future surprise attacks. Wraith couldn't hit and run or perform surprise attacks effectively without his power, which is why he's a moderately viable killer despite being an "m1 killer". Being an m1 killer doesn't mean you are automatically disadvantaged in chase, it just means that you lack the advantages other killers have. As a killer player I think gen speeds are fine.
You can mind game without conditioning, if you replace the conditioning with the most favorable outcome. At any given uncertainty, players have to make a choice based on how they can benefit most from the situation. The baseline, therefore, would be for the killer to make their action based on countering what is most favorable for the survivor. From that point on, the mental competition is established, and the mindgame begins based on what information each side takes away from then exhange. You could argue that the "first mindgame" is based on implication rather than conditioning, and that the larger the sample size grows, the more it shifts from the former to the latter.
Third person perspective can be absolutely massive, especially with how much the devs have been adding and improving visual obstructions. As someone who is colorblind, corn maps and yamaoka maps are legitimately unplayable for me as killer, but as survivor I have minimal problems with them. Audio is supposed to be a compensation for this, but it gets bugged regularly and can sometimes cause more problems due to this than help. Lunging also slows the killer if they miss, so it is something that requires commiting to (risk vs reward) and being punished for failure. If anything, you should compare lunging to survivor interactions, as they need to commit to the vault/drop/etc and can be punished with a hit for misjudging distance.
I understand that the wraith is a hit and run killer, and that was exactly my point: His power does absolutely nothing for him in a chase, and can even hinder him: its strength comes entirely from increasing the liklihood of an unsuspecting survivor making a mistake with bad positioning, being caught unaware and not being able to correct their mistake in time. If bing bong boy is cloaked and you're sitting under a pallet, he can't do a single thing to you until he finishes decloaking, and you are entirely in control until he does, when the mindgame resumes.
On the last point of gen speeds, they're always fine until they're not. Far too many survivor players do not utilize gen speed to their advantage, which feels like the intended way they're supposed to progress. When they optimize gen speeds though, it has an exponential effect on every time a killer guesses wrong, eats a pallet, etc. Its part of why some killers like Demogorgon and the Clown take such a hit to map pressure, even though their powers help them in loops: Every time they do anything, its telling every survivor not in a chase "Don't worry guys, I'm not sneaking up on you, and am currently preoccupied." This makes many survivors act less afraid of focusing on gens, and thus indirectly speeds them up.
As long as they keep urban evading in corners and waiting in lockers the second someone gets downed waiting for the bbq proc, gen speeds tend to remain much more stable and reasonable. Take that apprehension out of the equation, and games speed up.
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@SloppyKnockout said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1577044#Comment_1577044
Nice strawman. Try again.
I mean, I even gave you a free build to try to minimize her advantage, as well as constructive strategy to hurt her outside of chases. Making a joke about the hyperbolic nature of your position gives you an out from actually considering it tho, so you're welcome for that :)
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@xEa said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1576859#Comment_1576859
Great you mention Chess. Chess is a game with all informations. There is nothing you dont know, it is all on the board and you see it with your eyes. Chess also has nothing to do with guessing. I mean sure, you can only guess which opening your opponent is playing, but it is not important since you still have all the information on the board anyway. Its always important to find the best move in every situation and dont rely on enemys mistakes.
Now compare it with Spirit. What kind of information do you have in a chase against a Spirit? First of all you never know if she is actually phasing or not. Second, if she is, you have no clue what she is planning and where she is until its 2 late.
So what do you do when you have no informations? You guess.
Now compare DbD again with Chess. Imagine you have to make moves during a chessgame, but his pieces are invisble and you have no idea what kind of move your opponent did. You might guess it right, but its based on luck eventually.
You might say now that you know his patterns, but what makes you think he does not know that you know? Also you can not just play the potentially strongest move, because it might be actually a big plunder in that scenario.
Is it even possible to call a guess in whatever game where you dont have information "counterplay"? I dont think so.
And about how strong or weak counterplay is, its relative like i posted before. We can call EVERYTHING counterplay, even staying still and doing nothing. I guess we have to cut a line somewhere.
Guessing games are no counterplay and there is so far nothing convincing i have ever seen or did that would prove anything different.
Chess is also 1v1, has no loadouts or progression (aside from promoting pawns, technically) and, (unless specified by its rules) has no inherent time limit for any given action. You're taking a relevant comparison about a single point and extrapolating it as if there was an overal parallel.
That said, I'll still humor it: The guessing comes from precalulating your opponents future moves. Chess is not a game that is played at the present moment, it is played multiple turns in the future. This is why it has the same foundation in mindgames: You are trying to influence your opponents movements to suit your future plan, while attempting to not fall victim to the same from them. This is what things like "moonwalking to hide your red stain" is: The red stain doesn't disappear, but rather you are attempting to use its absence to misdirect your opponent to commit to an action that is more beneficial for you than them. In chess, this would be the same as baiting a piece trade which ultimately ends up in your advantage.
Misdirection is one of the most important aspects of any human competition: It can turn both perception and information that would normally be beneficial, into a weakness.
Also as a final note: If guessing is not allowed to be a counterplay, the entire genre of fighting games must be the most one dimensional genre of games mankind has ever seen. Vortexes and mixups aren't real, right?
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@Waffleyumboy said:
That's a really fancy way of saying "I don't know how mind games work, but I'm gonna explain them anyway!"
Mind games involve guessing from both players, Spirit involves guessing from the survivor while she retains all the tools she needs to gain an advantage. Killers don't rely on survivors making mistakes to get downs, they take chances with 50/50s in order to have a shot at ending the chase early. Otherwise they have to use their power to close the chase gap and prevent the survivor from extending it indefinitely. This is objectively how chases work, you have no argument here so I don't expect you to respond. If you do respond, try not to resort to name calling too fast, that would be boring and predictable.
How does the Wraith use their power to "close the chase gap and prevent the survivor from extending it indefinitely?" M1 killers are given that moniker because their power does nothing to aid them in a chase: Their success is determined wholly by survivors being outpositioned, or by guessing incorrectly.
Every time a situation occurs where the outcome is not definite, that is technically a mindgame. The reason why the "winning chases relies on survivor mistakes" meme is such a thing, is because the majority of mindgames tend to be in the survivors favor by design: The red stain, a zoomed out third person perspective, the terror radius, being able to see over foliage/some walls, etc. The only real universal tools for killers to counter these things relies specifically on attempting to punish survivors over-reliance on these advantages: moonwalking, baiting pallet hops, etc. Therefore, the counterplay is, in itself, "making the survivor more likely to mess up."
When used honestly, its not saying that the killer's input doesn't matter, but more that the survivors input is "more important" to the outcome. Of course, since resources are limited, it starts more heavily in survivors favor and shifts toward the killer's favor as the match goes on... but thats why every killer player and their mother wants to slow the game down in the first place.
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@SloppyKnockout said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1577009#Comment_1577009
Tru3 also says Deathslinger is a "worse Huntress", and that he's a better killer than Zubat.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1577008#Comment_1577008
Again - guessing isn't a counter, and when the Spirit, like MOST Spirits, is running Stridor - there is no "unpredictable". Even with Iron Will, you're just dead.
She must have a 100% 4k rate then, right?
want an anti spirit build? Spine Chill, Resilience, Quick and Quiet, and Iron Will. If you feel naked without an exhaustion perk, swap resilience with lithe. Its not as meta as the small pp build, but it shifts the mindgame more in your favor, every time she loses a mindgame, the entire survivor side gains pressure. Well, as long as people aren't urban evading in a corner somewhere.
That said, remember, she doesn't have a "no whoosh noise" addon anymore. Just treat it like wraith: no spine chill and no TR/noise means you are completely free to be working on a gen. Arguably moreso, since she's only 110% when not phasing, and if she has to phase to reach you then it has to recharge before she can use it to mindgame.
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@ScottJund said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1576950#Comment_1576950
I figured people could figure out it does not mean there is literally nothing you can do, as people don't immediately die upon loading into a match with Spirit, but I guess that's my fault for assuming.
I mean, people didn't instantly die when legion had no counterplay, and he didn't even get guaranteed kills. Likewise, there are plenty of games where said killers can underperform. Hyperbole doesn't really have a place in balance discussion, its important for developers to accurately understand both player experience, and the severity of oversight when evaluating feedback. Saying "The Spirit and Deathslinger's degree of counterplay is considerably weaker than it should be" gives more to work with than "Its so bad it doesn't really exist." The latter puts emphasis on the weight of it, but not how it should be compared and normalized. That becomes especially dangerous when it turns into an echo chamber, because the number of respondents grows exponentially compared to the actual relevant data. Everyone agrees on the what, but nobody is offering a why.
And again, I know you are one of the proponents of the "why" argument, which is very helpful perspective. But many, many, many people who agree with you are more focused on the "what", and disrupt the dialogue, making it harder for the devs to get useful feedback to consider. Its all the more reason why its important that these things are compared properly, as you could argue that there are many situations where certain killers find themselves having "zero counterplay" when they, too, are in a situation where "their counterplay is considerably weaker than it should be" vs the survivors.
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@ScottJund said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1576859#Comment_1576859
That's arguing semantics at this point. Of course every killer has some form of counterplay. The problem is with Spirit its so ineffective it may as well not be.
Semantics can be important when people bandwagon a misrepresented argument. The majority of people who are in team "zero counterplay" are the ones who want a flawless counter, not normalization. I know you're not one of them, but its important to know what kind of mentalities can follow in the wake of rational ideals.
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@xEa said:
I think it is also crucial to define the term "counterplay" for any discussion around that. Because it can mean a lot of things and people often define it different. They might even think the same way, but just because of definition, they dont agree.
Holding W and run in a straight line is technically counterplay, because it prolonges chasetime. But we dont call this counterplay, right?
Counterplay as survivor is when he has options that will safe him, when he plays correct.
Let us for a second talk about the Nurse example. There are many people who say that counterplay against Nurse is to break LOS. Is that true? Actually not really, it is basicly our hold W example, since there is nothing that hinders Nurse to blink at your location no matter what you try and what you do. You can guess where she is blinking, but it is nothing more then a guess, no matter how well you analise patterns. It might work, it might not work. So LOS is per definition no counterplay.
Would you agree with that?
Flip the script for a second. If "Counterplay as survivor is when he has options that will save him, when he plays correct," then how would you define counterplay from a killer's perspective? Many perks, items, and even addons are designed to punish killers for playing "correctly." I don't necessarily disagree with your definition, but I do feel it implies too much of a guarantee, which should not only not exist in a 1v4 scenario, but if it did, should be for the 1 and not the 4.
Meanwhile if a killer hooks someone and they get unhooked, the killer downs and unhooks someone else, then re-downs and picks up that first person within 60 seconds, they can eat a DS. Survivors can jump into a locker immediately after getting unhooked and put the killer in a situation where they're not guessing to win or lose the situation, but rather "how much they're willing to lose the situation by."
This seems to be lost on a lot of survivors, as their equivalent is "I might go down, but I will waste as much of the killer's time and pressure as I can doing it" but they aren't willing to see that perspective. If 2 people are hooked in the basement, and you bring the killer to the opposite corner of the map and give them time and space for everyone to get saved before you get downed, you won that chase. The killer lost. You took a situation that very realistically would have led to 2 kills, and reset the scenario entirely. If instead the survivor just sits there trying to loop the killer directly over top of the shack, they're eventually going to be placed on hook #3. Survivors are quick to say "lol don't tunnel ez gg" in response to the former, but often refuse to "take one for the team" in the latter.
As for the nurse LoS strategy, it absolutely is counterplay. The Nurse can blink through things, but she can't land inside of them. Attacks also have an incredibly frustrating degree of autoaim that can cause them to gravitate into obstacles when manipulated. Pairing the two things together makes it considerably less guaranteed that the nurse will land her blinks when there are obstructions present, in addition to needing to visually know where to blink to. It is not a guaranteed escape much like its not a guaranteed hit: instead it improves the survivors chances of avoiding being hit, and through their own input at that. Thus, counterplay.
The comparison to "hold w" is a bit of a bad faith argument, as the input is there, but it directly defies the game's core mechanics. The killer is faster than the survivor in almost every single case, and bloodlust/killer powers exist to increase that advantage. While holding W is technically counterplay, it loses efficiency linearly without other strategy to replace it. The holding W isnt the counterplay, the changes to map pressure/positioning/etc are the counterplay.
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@Alexmon70 said:
Dead Hard, Imagine a killer dead harding through a pallet and just not getting stunned and being next to you
...is how they would expect it to play out, but instead somehow the pallet downs them and uses up the exhaustion anyway
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@Kellie said:
Guessing isn't counterplay. And that goes for both of the killers.
Forcing people to have to guess very much is counterplay. Removing safety is a pretty important part of competitive strategy in pretty much any game, going all the way back to chess/shogi/etc. Counterplay doesn't mean you automatically win a situation, it means you have a chance for your input to determine the outcome, as opposed to be being trapped in a losing scenario. There are varying degrees of strength to counterplay, but that doesn't mean scenarios that do not directly favor you have zero counterplay.
Being stuck on phase 2 of the hook is a scenario that has no counterplay. You can only mash until you get saved, or die. Being on stage 1 does have counterplay, because you have the possibility to 4%. Its not strong counterplay, and is often far more risky than it is worth, but it exists compared to Phase 2. There are even perks that can strengthen that counterplay, like deliverance. But at the end of the day, you have the potential to directly impact the situation positively for yourself.
The argument shouldn't be about whether the counterplay exists, it should be about how strong or weak the counterplay is.
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Only time i ever bring a mori is when i expect the gens are going to fly, swf, or I have a daily challenge that forces me to. I usually don't use it until after 2nd hook, 2+ gens pop quickly, or someone tries to be toxic. It's kinda funny when you bring one vs a swf, and they pretty much give you the game trying to "prevent" you from using it on their friend.... Then you just hook them all and never use it. :)
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@pseudechis said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1567508#Comment_1567508
This is called the silver bullet fallacy.
The idea that a particular tactic will ultimately be the magical counter to a problem.
You can jank, early pallet drop, play around LOS blockers, stealth out all these things will aid you in avoiding a rifle shot/hit. All are counterplay in some way to every killer. Traditional looping isn't as effective so you mix up your play-style. Not every killer is gong to be hard countered by running tiles in the same manner. That would be truly stale for game play.
Many killers need to actively rely on survivors to make mistakes and get mindgamed/mindgame themselves. Most "no counterplay" arguments boil down to the killer actually being able to take control of the chase.
Its why people thought nurse had no counterplay. Its why people thought billy had no counterplay. Its why people thought clown had no counterplay (lmao.) It happens every time a killer is strong at chases. Most survivor mains have it in their head that they should be in control of chases, due to how often they're actually allowed to be.
That said, mindgames are 100% a counterplay, and both killers in question of the topic can be mindgamed. Counterplay does not mean "free 100% success escape from chase," hell sometimes even just wasting the killer's time at an extra 2-3 loops is a tremendous blow to their map pressure, which can be a LOT more important.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1571224#Comment_1571224
It's not cheating and in all honestly looks better. It also increases frames so people with low end pcs can play.
Stretched resolution isn't cheating, even though it lets you see past some loops, removing their mindgame potential that is present with proper resolutions.
....but people would use colorblind options to cheat tho!
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@forthelulz said:
Windows 10 has a few color blind options that work with Nvida and AMD.
ReShade, which is by far superior, also works with Nvidia and AMD.
FreeStyle is for Nvidia only and also has the added downside of having to install & use GeForce experience in order to use it.
Yeah that doesn't actually help with the issue at hand. Reshade can make a lot of games look better, but I wouldn't call it helpful with a game that keeps reducing luminosity. There are a LOT of degrees of colorblindness, between the main types and their subtypes. blanket filters tend to only really help more than they hurt in the most extreme cases of the main types, so blanket filters tend to be very poorly received vs individual element recolors. There isn't anything else to be said about it that already hasn't, which just makes it that much more frustrating that the game design seems to continue to worsen any of the methods colorblind players have been trying to adapt.
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@Breque said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1483467#Comment_1483467
How you can be abble to know what killer you are against?
Judging from your last post, you're the type of person that would use the exploit in a heartbeat if you knew how. To answer your other post, 4 survivors being able to stack items and perks specifically to disrupt or remove a killers power is FAR more damaging than a killer being able to change their build in reaction to items. Especially since they can't even change their killer anymore. If you're playing wraith or hag and see 4 flashlights, you have to sit there and eat the fact that your power is going to be useless, or just dodge before the match starts.
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@SailedSavage said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1483531#Comment_1483531
But how often does that happen? I mean honestly because I've been on since 2018 and this is the first I've heard about it. It can't be frequent enough the implement a survivor select freeze
People have brought them up in topics on here a LOT, especially back when MLGA was a thing. I'm pretty sure there's other topics about the current one on the main page right now. A lot of cheats and exploits last as long as they do because they're subtle, not every cheat is a Nea who instantly heals herself to full the second she gets downed or something.
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@SailedSavage said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1483467#Comment_1483467
How do you see the killer before you queue into the game? I'm confused is this something new or?
Its an exploit that popped up again. I don't know the specifics, but people have even made software in the past to achieve the effect. It wasn't as common for a while, but apparently people found another way recently.
Its not something thats supposed to be possible, and directly involves cheating to do it. The biggest problem with exploits like that, unfortunately, is they tend to get overlooked because of everyone assuming that things are working as intended.
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Oh, I was being facetious. That was the closest reasoning we got to why there isn't any accessibility in the game. That, and "go buy an Nvidia card and use their third party filter software" which apparently even a few colorblind people on the team have to use.
Of course, none of that even matters when it comes to things like foliage/corn and other obstacles, this new aura change, or any other design choices that directly impact colorblind players more than others.
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@SailedSavage said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1482604#Comment_1482604
accept the fact that all survivors play exactly the same way as killers have different abilities. So that wouldnt make any sense
The issue is with survivors being able to change their builds in reaction to the exploit. One person uses it and sees its a doctor, they mention it in lobby chat, then suddenly all 4 are running calm spirit. They mention its Plague and everyone puts their medkits away for toolboxes and flashlights.
The way killers were countering this recently was by having a different killer up until about 20 seconds or so left, then switching at the last moment. You'd be amazed the builds people "just so happened" to be caught using...
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Remember: colorblind accessibility would give an unfair advantage.
Kinda hard not to be petty about it when this was already an issue for ages that the community has made very apparent to the devs. now it's even worse?
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I would have absolutely no issue with it if it weren't for the exploits survivors use to find out who the killer is in lobby. Obviously they're not intentional and are something the devs are against, but they always just happen to find their way back into the game somehow. Kinda like the sound bugs.
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TBH i just wish there were less challenge that require a large number of games to achieve. "hook 20 different survivors" isn't exactly the most difficult, but it requires a minimum of 5 games to accomplish. Of course, there's always the opposite problem, where they have absurd requirements to be done in a single trial...
I think a good balance would be for a challenge to be possible in 1-3 games. Not necessarily that you'll get it by 3 games, but that it shouldn't require more than that in the most optimal conditions.
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@Dwinchester said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1433616#Comment_1433616
Which ones on badham?
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1433617#Comment_1433617
If it's barely functioning, why do so many use it?
Actually try to dodge anything with it, which is the primary intention of the perk. Not only does it not work half the time, but it uses up the exhaustion on top of that, meaning that if you somehow get up via being picked up/unbreakable/etc, you STILL have to wait for the exhaustion cooldown to even be able to attempt using it again.
Its good for making a small amount of distance to reach an interactable, assuming you have a straight line and the killer can't circumvent it. Thats literally it.
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Dead Hard has barely been a functioning perk since the rollout of dedicated servers, and it STILL hasn't been fixed. One can only hope the server tic upgrade will give less false positives on using it, but we'll have to wait and see.
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learning how to play as a particular killer is painful.
grinding out all the killers to at least level 40 for their teachables is painful.
grinding out the killers you actually want to play until you have the perks and addons required to make them viable is painful.
having to deal with the absurd amount of toxicity in this community while doing all of the above is painful.
and then having to repeat most of those steps for every single killer you want to play is downright torture.
Why would anyone do any of that, if they have the option of playing with friends over comms in the power role? And none of that is even accounting for the frequent and VERY long lasting bugs that many killers face. I decided to exclude that part in memory of Dead Hard and breaking ghostface out of stealth, may they rest in peace.
Point is, it takes an exceptionally thick skin and a lot of determination to start playing killer at this point. You don't feel it as much when you've been playing the role for years, but every patch makes it less and less accessible for newer players. If nothing else, a sandbox practice mode to learn how killer powers work is years overdue.
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Sound bugs continue to exist for killer in case the colorblind users actually want to be able to play the role. We wouldn't want that, would we?
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Why do people use "People are toxic in other games too!" as some kind of excuse for it to be ok here though. DBD's toxicity and harrassment is on a whole other level from most of those other games, for one simple reason:
The victim will almost always be outnumbered.
Especially in the case of SWF, there will always be a "you tell em, Steve Dave!" to compliment every instance of BMing. Its half the reason they do it. Whether it be people on comms laughing at a "baby killer," sandbagging a solo queuer they get paired with, a killer streamer who is being toxic and laughing at it with their chat, toxicity rarely STARTS with just one person. The problem is that those victims often get tilted/shook/whatever you want to call it, and then they often start taking it out on other players in turn. You also see this in games like DotA and LoL for the same reason: people group up with their buddies to cut other people down.
In games like CoD, you can just assume everyone is an underage little ######### who is just a toxic person.
Guarantee if people could slap the hell out of each other through the internet, toxicity would practically disappear from gaming altogether.
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@Deathslinger said:
At this point I don’t know if the game keeps breaking me or the people who play it, either way I usually stop playing after I hit level one. So many other amazing games to play~
you just get to a point where you remember that you're voluntarily subjecting yourself to abuse. Thats not what games are supposed to be about.
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@Bovinity said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1419590#Comment_1419590
Actually, the FGC tends to be pretty nice.
Seconded. That said, I feel that the online only aspect of it tends to be a lot less wholesome than the local in-person scenes. I'm sure thats not a coincidence.
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most of the problems in this game wouldn't be anywhere near as bad if the majority of the community wasn't the epitome of toxicity.
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@LapisInfernalis said:
This is why I fake, 360 and then pick up, look at walls, use Infectious or play Doc.
But I noticed that they can blind you somehow, even if you can't see them in your FOV. The only thing i really hate about flashlights.
this is the real issue that needs to be addressed. I can have a face full of nothing but bricks in a wall, yet still be flashlight blinded if their angle is just right. The only way I can see this being possible is if FoV for flashlight blinding does not match the FoV for actual view, which is criminal.
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@m0rtalk0mbat said:
I just hate his ulta-rare, its so bad i cant even fathom why they would add it. A speed limiter in exchange for continuing through a pallet, like WHAT.
Just remove the speed limiter effect and its kinda decent, definitely not overpowered being able to power through a pallet with a saw.
The best part is how niche it is, in exchange for neutering his power, as an ULTRA RARE. Survivor throws the pallet early at a short loop, good chance they'll get to the side fast enough for you to not even guarantee a hit. At that point, if you miss, you lose ground or god forbid you bump into a side of the loop in the spot where the pallet was trying to flick after them, now you're losing even more ground. If you misjudge or the survivor can play the distance correctly, they might even be able to just bait the pallet, and you're sitting there overheating your chainsaw and removing the ability to be able to use it after the play, regardless of the outcome. Best case scenario? you broke the pallet and got a hit, while they speed burst away. It just looks absolutely awful for its rarity.
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@SquirrelKnight said:
I agree with OP. The game advertises both positions, and i dont think you should have to ignore a role (that many people BOUGHT THE GAME FOR) because it is so unfriendly and clearly more.difficult for new players
Not to mention people with any type of disability, especially hearing issues or colorblindness.