Ryuhi
Ryuhi
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@DeliciousFood said:
No, situational awareness is an integral skill of survivor. Noticing how many stabbies Legion has done is part of that awareness. Literally just count.
implying survivors even need situational awareness when there are half a dozen perks that do it for them
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@ThatOneDemoPlayer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2941183#Comment_2941183
Hex: The Third Seal is amazing on Artist, and Artist counters Dead Hard, so yes, they're on the same level
I mean if you honestly believe that, you do you.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2941183#Comment_2941183
...Ok?
It seems like you're twisting my point into something it's not just so you have something to disagree with.
Third seal is a hex perk that is so weak it does not even remotely give enough benefit to justify its limitation. Dead Hard can be used to extend chases to the point of becoming a time sink after it would have otherwise already been over. Not only that, but there can be situations where it can have zero counterplay (the classic deadhard for distance) AND it comes back naturally while doing your primary objective (gens) or even just not sprinting. it can be used plenty of times with that same level of impact as well.
They don't have much in common except that they are both perks in the game dead by daylight.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2941153#Comment_2941153
In as much as they're perks that without their limiting factors would be too strong? Yes.
Of course they're not exactly the same.
I have a hard time considering third seal and dead hard anywhere near each other in terms of potency but sure.
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@RisingTron said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2941135#Comment_2941135
Woah, chilll. I'm absolutely open to a friendly disagreement. No need to basically call me a noob lmao. I know I need to get gud.
It's not about wanting the game to be easier or wanting survivor to be OP. As I've stated, I want killers to get buffs. I don't mind that. I'm open to whatever killer buffs they wanna do and if anyone has suggestions for base killer changes to go with base solo queue changes I'd be down to hear them!
Read some of the other responses in this thread. Others have made some really good points here!
Bridging the gap between solo players and swf players is only a good thing imo. Because then the devs will be able to balance around that in the future.
Don't get me wrong, I'm glad you can throw on Kindred and Windows and have great games that feel fun and good. But I've yet to have that kind of luck.
I didn't call you a noob. I just stated that the solution to your issue is literally just to get better at the game. Same advice would apply to a comp player if their issue was the same. The reason I suggested those two perks is because they give you most of the information an SWF can provide, in terms of info, they literally bridge the gap up to comms tier. As stated, the problem with the "buff one, then the other" argument is that BHVR does not, nor will they ever function that way. They have attempted that style of pairity in the past and it took ages to do what ended up being a fix that would have taken 10 minutes to implement.
I didn't intend to be dismissive with my last comment, but you have to understand that the vast majority of survivor complaints are "why would I get better when I can complain and make the game easier for me?" Of course thats not to say killers dont do the same thing (they do frequently,) but in cases like the solo>killer>swf argument the pairity either needs to be done simultaneously, or it needs to start with killer then work back to solo.
I just have a hard time taking the discussion seriously when kindred and windows were both buffed to the moon for this exact reason yet people refuse to use them and demand more.
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@Nos37 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2940052#Comment_2940052
Nothing changes.
Remove 1 survivor? That means the killer's hooking no one else. That means they can see their hook count at 2 and know that both of those are for that 1 survivor.
Even if all 4 survivors look alike and all 4 are injured, when the killer downs the wrong clone, they can see the player protrait and know they got the wrong one.
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Showing hook counts helps determined killers tunnel slightly better (if they're alternating 2 survivors and not focusing on just 1).
Meanwhile, it helps nice killers tremendously as they'll know who not to hook (without needing to bring a mori just to see the prompt to know).
If you're against this change, you're effectively asking to be accidentally killed by nice killers; tunneling will not stop regardless of this change.
I think people who never play killer just honestly have zero clue how many things you need to keep track of mentally at any given time. Not even an us vs them argument, just that killers need to keep multiple mental timers/counts constantly. BT and DS timers, gen speeds, boons, totem locations, (un)broken doors, gen distances, god loops, the game just gives you zero information unless you add it to your mental notebook midmatch.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2941134#Comment_2941134
Yes. Exhaustion only exists in the first place to limit the use of very strong chase related perks. Plus the chances of most survivors running an exhaustion perk are very high, due to how powerful they are.
They're essentially the survivor equivalent of a Hex, strong perk, limited use.
That said I'd also be ok if they added a minor setback to exhaustion; slower vault speed.
whoa whoa,are you honestly going to compare exhaustion perks to hexes in terms of usage limits? One that comes back every 45 seconds you're not sprinting vs one that can be disabled 30 seconds into a match and gone forever?
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@RisingTron said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2941073#Comment_2941073
I wholeheartedly disagree.
Cool, you're welcome to. I'll keep grinding up like I usually do and getting better with each match instead of begging for the game to get easier for me.
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exhaustion was introduced because the devs pulled a whoopsie with exhaustion perks and made them too strong, while needing some way to limit the frequency survivors could activate them. You can't really rework the status without completely changing how the perks (especially their cooldown) work.
That said i do like the idea of them breathing louder while its active, makes sense since you're supposed to be winded.
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Performance issues and major bugs are delegated to the team that doesn't exist
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Ever since I started running Kindred and Windows, I haven't had problems with solo queue. Sure, I'm not going to escape every game due to getting matched with awful teammates or ragequits occasionally, but how is that any different than being bad at killer and getting paired with swf sweat squads
a bit more often thanoccasionally? If you consistently play smart you'll escape more often than not, even with bad teammates, you just have to be willing to shrug it off when you get stuck in doomed games, just like killer.Both could certainly use improvements, but I'm not a fan of the "buff solo to swf level, then buff killers!" mindset because, well, this is BHVR. remember the gap between key and mori reworks? the amount of bugs from literal years ago that havent been touched? If you want a staggered upgrade, they'd do one half, wait a year, then say their plans for the other half need to be adjusted for the current balance, then another year, then maybe some changes that don't actually bridge the gap but are made to appease people as if they did.
They need a health chapter to fix bugs, improve performance, and iron out balance. They will never do it, and thus, never give themselves the time and resources they always use as an excuse.
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@Lynxx said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2940340#Comment_2940340
That's an swf problem - not a HUD issue.
you don't have to be in a swf for 2 or more people to have similar/same cosmetics.
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2940415#Comment_2940415
I’m glad we both agree this following post is a strawman argument:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2940327#Comment_2940327
>A straw man (sometimes written as strawman) is a form of argument and an informal fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument, whereas the real subject of the argument was not addressed or refuted, but instead replaced with a false one.
You certainly have a strange interpretation of the concept.
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@SuzuKR said:
I hope BHVR doesn't announce any of the existing characters are cisgender or heterosexual, that would be pretty forced and just obvious tokenism. It would also be less effort than making a new character.
It would retcon my made-up headcanon that every single character is LGBT+ and would make it feel like a bait-and-switch because I assumed on my own they were all LGBT+ despite no story evidence or explicit confirmation.
For one, sexuality/gender has absolutely zero impact on the trials, nor should it. I'm reminded of almost every single form of mainstream media where there's stuff that has various impacts on the story or significance, then there's just being cisgender/heterosexual. In these sorts of media, being cisgender/heterosexual affects... nothing. Just your gender/who you like, that's it. I thought this is an outstanding way of handling it, especially because it inherently fortified the aspect that being cisgender/heterosexual makes absolutely zero difference to the viewer/player what your/a character's gender/orientation is outside of what meaning you, yourself, provide.
My stance is not against characters being cisgender or straight, just not in favor of it.
In the above example from basically all mainstream media ever, the impact would be completely different if being cisgender/heterosexual was something that was put on the player without them knowing. Gender/sexuality is not a good topic to surprise people with in video games (or even stories in general) where it is both completely irrelevant and completely unrelated to said game or story.
The long and short of the matter is that mainstream media and culture has, for years, been structured around a "just automatically assume all characters are cisgender and heterosexual by default" because how uninclusive society started, while being slowly "caught up" with each progressive struggle for rights.
Hopefully someone doesn't try to find a way to put words or opinions in my mouth from this post, or try to demonize me for something they assume i must have been implying or something, but thats about it.
This is literally what a strawman argument is, in case you were unaware.
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@Mooks said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2940385#Comment_2940385
Didn’t include you.
and I have said to plenty of people it’s okay to have negative feelings about this and express them. As long as they are not rooted in homophobia. Which in some cases wasn’t really clear as some made either indirect homophobic statements or used complete irrelevant ‚arguments‘.
@Mooks said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2940388#Comment_2940388
I didn’t imply it. You are making this about you right now, not me.
you have tried to explain how people might feel about lore additions down the line etc and I actually agreed with you but said that it’s not something that can be generally applied to everyone using that argument.
Fair enough. We can certainly agree where we agree and disagree where we disagree, then.
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@Mooks said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2940374#Comment_2940374
I never accused you personally at all.
Then why would you imply it, when I made it extremely clear? Why would you argue with someone else AT me, if not to imply that I share their value or opinion?
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@Mooks said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2940350#Comment_2940350
It’s just so funny how they even refuse to acknowledge my direct question regarding Wraith being retroactively ‚changed‘ to like women in a similar way they claim David was changed.
Just in case I'm being included in this, my opinion is "If that upset people at the time, they're allowed to have whatever reaction they wanted to that, including no reaction at all. Its possible to disagree respectfully without painting anyone who disagrees as vile."
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@Mooks said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2940327#Comment_2940327
This would be all understandable as an argument if it was ever used as an argument outside of LGBTQ+ inclusion.
several tomes have added (sexual) partners to already established characters: David got a girlfriend mentioned in his first tome story (not the release background lore), Yui got a partner mentioned (though not gendered but that kinda also confirmed her not being aromatic/asexual), Frank and Julie were made a sexual active couple in their tome story while in the initial lore I think it was just hinted at that Julie had a crush on Frank. And there are many more I am not even thinking of right now.
now is the first time it’s an explicit non-heterosexual relationship being added. And suddenly there are plenty of people here being against these kind of additions? This just seems very suspicious - especially if they brush any of the other examples off and we are in the 11th rift with all of them adding lore to at least two characters..
And again, I have not made a single argument against inclusion, quite the opposite. I only tried to help both sides of the situation understand one another. I already typed not to make up my opinions on anything from my post. I have absolutely no issue with "being against these kind of additions" nor have I ever insinuated I did.
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2940334#Comment_2940334
They don't have an actual reason they can say that won't get them in trouble with the forum's rules lol
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2940327#Comment_2940327
First of all, it's not a retcon, David was never said to be straight. Before you bring up the girlfriend point, no that does not make someone straight. People learn stuff about themselves later in life, or need to hide their status from bigoted people (eg, family/neighbors).
Second of all, sexuality/gender is irrelevant to the trials, but that's an irrelevant argument. Games aren't only about in-game content. It's representation for an under-represented stigmatized minority in real life. That automatically trumps it. Why does there need to be a reason to be anything? People are not LGBT for some kind of plot reason. There's no such thing as forced inclusion. LGBT+ people exist, so LGBT+ inclusion makes sense. It does not have to be related to the story or the gameplay. That logic is stupid. What, does there have to be a reason for straight or cisgender characters to exist? lmao.
Third, it's literally their fault if anyone assumed anything that wasn't confirmed about him. He was never ever confirmed to be straight. People upset over that can get over it. This is like saying it makes sense to get upset that you got some stranger's name wrong when it was never ever said. If people didn't realize their headcanons were only ever headcanons, that is literally on them.
Of course it's going to be a "surprise" when it hasn't been done in five years of this game's lifespan. But people who have an issue with it being added need to get over themselves.
Did you even read the post? Not only did I never imply that the two parts of david's lore (old and new) were incompatible, I made a point that there was nothing to imply about my personal opinions outside of the words that were typed.
for the second paragraph, you're arguing with literally nobody. I stated my personal opinion but made it extremely clear that it had absolutely zero to do with the subject at hand. It was brought up because of how it could cause mixed reception. You don't have to agree with someone to understand why they might think or feel.
Your third point is not, again, disagreeing with anything I said. All I have done is attempt to eludicate how someone with your stance might be misunderstanding someone with another. Again, sensitive topics especially need people to not strawman one another for anyone to get any value out of the discussion.
Now that I've been nice and civil, I don't think you should be telling anyone to get over themselves.
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@Lynxx said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2940068#Comment_2940068
Survivors don't often witness each other being hooked so there's little visual to differentiate them leaving their screams which again, inexperienced survivors won't know the difference between them beyond male vs. female.
And since they are considered on the same 'team' that information is therefore provided to their 'team'.
and if you're going against 4 claudettes with the exact same cosmetics, what do killers get to be able to tell them apart?
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I think this kinda boils down to the issue of retroactively giving/expanding on established character lore. retcons-rewrites-etc always run into that kind of issue, and some people feel like the content's nature makes it feel like its inherently protected from criticism.
Personally, I don't care about the topic in regards to anyone in the fog. Some do, some don't. People on the internet (and especially in this community) absolutely love to assume the worst from people that don't agree with them, while topics like this make some people put a lot more personal stake into their stance (understandably.)
The reason I personally feel it could have been handled better is because of the original point: Its not that they didn't put effort into it (they clearly did) nor that they did any research or care into it being a first step in representation (they clearly did,) but that for some it feels almost like a bait and switch.
For one, sexuality has absolutely zero impact on the trials, nor should it. I'm reminded of Rogue Legacy where there are various genetic and hereditary traits you can take that have various impacts on gameplay, then one of them is just being gay/lesbian. In a game where even your character's height or being farsighted are permutations that can affect various aspects of the game, being gay affects... nothing. Just your spouse's gender in the ending, thats it. I thought that was an outstanding way of handling it, especially because it inherently fortified the aspect that it makes absolutely zero difference to the player what your character's orientation is outside of what meaning you, yourself, provide.
With a situation like David, after all the years of the game, cosmetics, jokes in the community, headcanons people have been building over the years, it starts to feel like it was decided for the player. In the above example from Rogue Legacy, the impact would be completely different if being gay was something that was put on the player without them knowing. You know you are choosing it when you do, and thus, the impact is direct and intentional. Inclusion is important, and you'll rarely find good faith arguments that claim its not in this case. However, if it was something that was randomly or arbitrarily decided for you, you can absolutely bet there would have been controversy over how it was handled, which would lead to a similar situation like this. Sexuality is not a good topic to surprise people with in video games (or even stories in general) where it is both completely irrelevant and completely unrelated to said game or story.
In this case, again, they put a lot of work and effort into that part of the situation. This wasn't some half assed "throw a pride flag on his back and pump out more cosmetics for pride month" situation. It WAS, however, one that fell victim to a discordance in its reception due to the nature of its elements. I've heard the "we didn't want to make them paid dlc" argument, but the long and short of the matter is that the game has, for years, been structured around a "build your own headcanon" stance due to how barebones the lore started, while being slowly "caught up" with each subsequent tome. That in itself will always make controversial topics create discordance on some level. Especially when it might come off as unrelated to what was before (IIRC his original intro involved him having a girlfriend, and just being a rough and tumble ######### who got in bar fights all the time, basically the "macho british lad" stereotype.) Certainly the two are not incompatible, but like I mentioned at the start, the sheer whiplash between the two comes off as a bait and switch.
Hopefully someone doesn't try to find a way to put words or opinions in my mouth from this post, or try to demonize me for something they assume i must have been implying or something, but thats about it. I think they did everything right about it except for having it suddenly be a surprise after this many years.
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its an arbitrary decision where the "damned if you do" (survivors could be tunnelled) outweighs the "damned if you don't" (yet another thing to have to keep track of mentally, while also ironically making it harder to not accidentally tunnel people)
just another classic "we don't want to change it because someone could use it to be mean," unlike seizure inducing flashlight macros obviously.
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@Steel_Eyed said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2933838#Comment_2933838
The grind you’re describing is self inflicted. There are ways to mediate it. Really the first four killers or survivors a new player goes into should have most of the meta youre targeting. Then plus being only four characters in, you’re guaranteed to get the perks you want early. You only can play with four perks anyways.
The problem is players not prestiging early, and unlocking all the perks, then waaay later regretting not prestiging and having 6 pages of perks to acquire when they finally consider committing. Just do it now. Sunk cost.
For someone in my position, grinding out a new character isn’t a big deal at all. Because I have 27 other characters to do it with as well as trying out the new killer.
And to DBDs credit, they leave old Tomes up for new players to work through those challenges. Each Tome has about three million bloodpoints each. Theres at least 25M just sitting waiting to be acquired. You can definitely get a good start from those and it gives the players a little something to work through. That’s probably the equivalent to the Tutorial stuff mentioned from LOL.
you forgot about perks that are unlocked by default without needing to be teachable, so you're kinda lowballing the minimum. Also I'm pretty sure I already addressed this, but literally everyone thats not caught up has a larger grind added than anyone who is. The amount added will always be higher the less "complete" your unlocks, so it does not create linear growth. Your position is literally the only one that does not suffer from this, though if you were to go for a year without buying any bloodwebs, you would then have substantially more grind than someone who was at that point caught up. And since the acquisition order becomes more rng dependent the more you unlock, catch up progress will always be more randomized and chaotic than maintaining current progress.
The tomes started as a decent way to help with the grind, but it fell behind very quickly, again affecting those stuck in the grind far more than those that finished it. I'm a survivor main who stopped getting survivors or their perks simply spending all fo their BP on killers to get the current meta unlocked on them in the event i actually want to use them, only to never want to use them because I haven't been able to get them caught up to the current meta yet. (of course, then the meta shifts and the things i was going for before are now worthless, time to start over for the newer meta. For each killer. forever.)
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Playing killer makes you better at survivor. The survivors who complain about things that others have adapted to are rarely honest about seeing it from the opposite perspective. A lot of times nuances to killer powers/perks/etc can be hard to understand without seeing them from the other side, the Artist being a great example. The DMS/PR combo was another one, people who understood the combo from killer side immediately came up with the counter of letting go and then immediately hopping on to undo the regression (especially knowing that PGTW synergizes poorly with that combination of perks, while also being able to recognize and work around it if its there)
It is the unironic manifestation of the git gud meme. Study your opponent from their perspective to understand their mindset.
Easier to whine for nerfs online tho.
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@Munqaxus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2933452#Comment_2933452
There's "people saying it's not fun" and it actually "not being fun".
I'm speculating and haven't played against Legion since the update, but if it's extending the game an extra 15 minutes and the game becomes mending-by-daylight, then my guess is it's in the "not being fun" category.
Also, Legion caused the game to be mending-by-daylight previously, and the developers changed him.
And he was useless ever since. Legion has been consistently unviable for a very long time, because they didn't know how to make them viable without making survivors sad. The buff was arguibly one of the best ways to improve their viability while retaining their counterplay, of which there is still plenty.
Again, mending multiple times in a match is no less tedious than 99% of everything you have to do in the game regardless, for either side. You think killers have fun losing chases in order to watch that same stupid door kick animation for the 5th time in the match on maps like Badham?
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@Steel_Eyed said:
When I was around ~3500 hours and Devotion 12, I had all killers and survivors Prestige 3.
I am now 4,700 hours and Devotion 15.80 and I have 23 killers with all perks unlocked and fourteen survivors with all perks unlocked. Braggadocios, I know.
I have the opposite problem of OP. I’m staring at the end where bloodpoints don’t really have a place anymore.
My feeling on this issue is people who are wishing the grind away don’t know how much of the game is kept interesting by the building up of their roster. I think it should remain as is and the playerbase should learn how to manage it instead. I imagine a lot of this sentiment comes from newcomers who were convinced not to Prestige and kinda eating the sunk cost reality they find themselves in.
That would be all well and good if there wasn't such an obscene focus on meta for viability, or if your ability to obtain aspects of said meta wasn't almost entirely RNG dependent. Gatekeeping behind gatcha style acquisition is one thing, but having to do it for each individual character has more than an additive growth scale. Not only that, but the more you unlock, the worse your chances of actually getting what you want to unlock in each web.
Think about how many steps would be involved for a new player to be a Legion with a Spirit Fury/Enduring build just the absolute bare minimum of webs involved. Then add on that the completion of said build would create clutter in the blood web for any other killer trying to create any build not including said perks.
Player retention mechanics being greasy as hell is nothing new, but BHVR aren't keeping up with how to get new players to stay while being at a very obvious, massive disadvantage. If you want an example of other businesses learning from this issue, look at how games like League give players a boost: they give out a ton of free characters to new accounts just for doing the tutorials. Said characters are directly sacrificed from the grind so new players can start being competitively viable earlier.
Meanwhile DBD's grind is so stifling that it even affects long time less frequent players. Every chapter that you fall behind in perk acquisition, you'll have an even larger gap added every 3 months. People who have been playing then game for years at stuff like 5-20 hours a week average generally don't make enough progress to advance in the grind simply due to how inflated the totals have become.
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any stealth killer probably. Big maps hurt almost everyone, especially when they're not conducive to 3 gen setups. Stealth killers get hurt pretty massively by open maps though. Pinnacle would have to be scratched mirror Myers tho.
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@malloymk said:
Take a break? Then I just get further behind in the grind.
But for real, I've taken a few breaks and it's definitely something I'd recommend as well.
Thats actually a valid point. Due to the exponential nature of the grind (especially re: killers) breaks are inherently discouraged due to being extremely counterproductive to keeping up with the growth of the grind. The more behind you are, the less you want to take breaks (this is by design) and so you're more likely to play past the point of burning out. This would be ideal for the devs if not for how bad the burnout can get with this game, and especially with the overall wearyness of the userbase toward what causes them to get burnt out.
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@D3spair said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2930746#Comment_2930746
Survivors were hoping for Ruin to be nerfed to the ground but the Change made it just an equally powerful version of Ruin (or much better version for Mobility Killers).
So Yea my point is Dead Hard is here to stay.
I would argue that old ruin was actually more potent in the majority of cases, especially since new ruin also ruins synergy with a lot of other perks. Think of how old ruin would interact with perks like DMS and Pain Resonance: Considerably better synergy for the unlikely event that the hex lasts more than the first 30 seconds of the match.
The rework didn't nerf it into the ground and gave it different usage applications, but I have a hard time considering it better than the old one.
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@Bladeisbest said:
Any day now..... :[
Anti Aliasing option? is that some kind of Pig nerf? Sounds good lets roll out another pig nerf thanks for the idea!
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You're welcome to be the better person, and I wish more people would. But here's the unfortunate truth (with this game and community especially):
Nobody is incentivized in any way to break the cycle of toxicity
Simply put, there is absolutely zero reason for any one person to be the better person when confronted with toxicity in this game. There is the nebulous impact of not making it even worse that you could have, sure. But that only has theoretical impact on any future matches you will experience. However there is no punishment for BMing (its even passively encouraged) nor is there any type of rep system, no grade reset rewards for not being an insufferable jerk, You aren't temporarily put in a queue with other non-asshats, nothing.
I'm not toxic to other players because I see no personal reason to be. If i see someone being toxic I usually assume they're either letting out aggression that toxic players put on them, or they're just a toxic person who would act that way regardless. Until the game is structured around it or even at the very least the devs address it as more than "just smack talk," its always going to be a thing.
People are having seizures from flashlight macros yet they're still in the game, mostly unchanged except that one time they were able to force crash people's games. Macros aren't even allowed via the ToS, yet they refuse to address the favorite bully tool in the game despite it having a direct impact on some players' health. The only way to get rid of toxicity in this game would be to nuke it from orbit, and BHVR is just fine with that.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
At lower MMR possibly. At high MMR not as much I don’t think. NOED doesn’t typically matter if a decent killer gets a 4k before the gens are done, it only matters when the survivors are close to escaping. Unless survivors waste time doing dull totems in anticipation of noed or something and that extra time spent causes them to lose, which I’ve seen plenty of times.
But hard to say for sure without seeing clear cut data on it. I do think it’s an unhealthy perk either way though. Not OP, just unhealthy.
I don't really get this argument. Even at high MMR, NOED virtually guarantees at least 1 kill in scenarios where the survivors did well enough for the exits to be powered. While players can do bones to get rid of it, high level players especially have incredibly fast gen completion times. Boons and pentimento also disincentivize players from going after dull totems unless they explicitly suspect NOED. Better players are more likely to be able to find and get rid of it after its been activated (or make the hard read that the killer has it and do it preemptively) but it still has a very high chance of adding 1-2 kills to games that would have had 0 without.
It pads kill statistics, and robs players who played better. Its not terrible to have in the game due to having counterplay, but it absolutely affects kill/escape stats at all skill levels.
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What is the point of the "its not fun to go against" arguments? 99% of the game is not fun to go against. The biggest difference is that some things (like legions power) actually have counterplay to minimize/negate their prevalence. Even with their buffs, legion can rarely get the 5 hits unless the survivors are grouped and oblivious.
Annoyed you have to mend? After you do, they didn't score a down, and the only way they're going to be able to down you with their power is if they manage to tag 3 people before you, then get you twice after. Did they tag you first then run back and get you for the last 2 hits? Don't instantly mend. You don't even have any benefit of doing it until after going outside of their TR.
Having to break half the doors on a map to break up god loops is annoying. Not being able to hook someone because there are zero hooks in range due to awful RNG is annoying. not being able to use a medkit or healing perks because you're up against vommymommy is annoying. everything is annoying but take the W when its at least something you can actually do something about.
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Been lamenting the balance for long enough, but the cheating epidemic was kinda the last straw. Its become common enough that it causes me to question everything, even knowing a lot of times things are legitimate (just awkward.)
I know you can't "just fix" hacking, but they're not winning the arms race. I feel bad because I know how hard it can be to keep up with the opposition, but with how they've handled major bugs and issues being left in the game for literal years, I don't see them making enough progress to quell it any time soon.
I'll play an occasional match or two, but I don't plan to grind grade/rifts/seasonals/etc anymore with the state of the game.
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Kindred, Windows, Spine Chill, *exhaustion perk of choice*
can sub the exhaustion perk slot for one of the meta perks survivors just can't exist without apparently, but the first three cover most of the solo queue weaknesses, while nothing can really be offensively exploitable.
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they can't/won't remove SWF, so the question becomes: Why haven't they come up with any form of (de)incentivizing it? Giving the killer a 50/75/100% bp bonus post match (depending on number of premade,) reducing the stacking potential of perks in a premade party, having SWF members have a scream notification every time one of their premade are downed, anything.
many SWFs arent even the problem necessarily, its the upper end of their potential to exploit the balance of the game. There needs to be something either balance or progression related to offset how absolutely demoralizing it can be.
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@Icaurs said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2907223#Comment_2907223
You don't want breakable walls? I would be more then happy to revert them back to how they were, try catching me on any of the main buildings pre breakable walls. You could say "Well just remove the wall." The point of the wall is to give the survivors one good loop before its broken and heavily crippled for the rest of the match. As for COH, yeah you would have a lot of difficulty finding players defending COH, and if you do, point them out for me and I will call them out on it. Boons in general ae balanced. COH just needs a complete rework.
As for dead zones its somewhat map dependent. The point was each map does have these. There is nothing wrong with the maps in DBD. I think a larger issue is the random aspect of DBD. You can have a map where shack, leads into TL wall and loops into another loop that connects into main building. Then on the same map, a massive chuck of it simply has nothing there besides maybe a single extremely weak pallet. Depending on where you start in a chase has massive impact. So yes DBD is weirdly balanced in a way that is unfair to both sides.
No, I don't want breakable walls. They were originally advertised as a way for killers to bust up bad loops, but before they came out they actually fixed most of the bad loops in a way that killers didnt need to sacrifice so much time to make them actually playable. Door breaking is slow as hell with the default animation, and made killers' time that much more valuable as if it wasn't already that much more important than the survivors.
People complain about gen speeds a lot, and the devs refuse to touch them since it would be more boring for holding m1 and reading twitch chat enthusiasts. The other side of the coin would be addressing killer time waste in general, which should be very minimal for the 1 in a 1v4. Its a big part of why the 2 seconds to snuff a boon is often worse than the time it takes to light them, since you have to add in the other factors like travel time, lost pressure/abandoned chase, etc. Make it so door breaking can be done with a normal attack/blade wipe like how some killers can break them with their powers and it would be an actual compromise, We literally went from an actual fix to a fancy bandaid fix.
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@Icaurs said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2907191#Comment_2907191
Umm they did reduce map sizes. And fixed loops. Again they can't add more onto survivors without fixed camping. There would not be enough time to do all the objectives. I agree using your knowledge and skill in chases is the fun part of DBD. It's a shame that killers took such amssive issues with this and had to create artificial dead zones maps to force downs. But hey at least we ae in agreement. Let's hope they revert a lot of those map "fixes" so survivors can really implement their game knowledge in chases but it's unlikely.
1) Fix loops (good)
2) Introduce breakable doorways (bad)
3) rebreak loops, but give killers the one time time-sink to "fix" them mid match via said breakable doors (also bad)
4) introduce Circle of Healing (every single second is now worth its weight in gold)
also "artificial dead zones" are less common than "a jungle gym leading into killer shack loop" or "multiple loops with zero mindgame back to back in general." Or my personal favorite "all 4 scourge hooks spawned right next to each other in a corner of the map with no pressure, survivors spawning directly overtop of ruin, while also spawning spread out at the start"
At least Windows of Opportunity can give you the info to not route a chase into a dead zone to begin with.
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They wanted to nerf either snares or slowdown, but then they just said screw it and nerfed both, and im sure they dont plan to look at him again for a few years. There is no nuance or agency in the balance department.
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Killer is almost never used at high level play because they are not viable
"There's no counterplay we must nerf"
she slows down to set her birbs, you can run through the birb itself before its launched to take a swarm rather than a direct hit, the window for getting hit by another bird while repelling is extremely short (unless you start vaulting pallets and such, but of course, you can always hop in/out of a locker to get rid of them instantly) and she can easily be mindgames/misdirected when trying to place birds at a loop you can't see over.
If you hate her that much, run Windows and look for loops you chain, then just make her waste tons of time before she either gives up or bloodlust 3's you. You don't have to escape a chase to win it, just drawing it out as long as possible does a lot more damage to her than the hook does to you.
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Breakable walls should be able to be broken with an M1 + blade wipe. I can understand locking pallets to an animation, but killers who can break doors with their powers feel considerably better than having to run up, stand still for a bit while slowly kicking it down, then regaining control after a few more seconds. Honestly, attacks through doors while breaking them should be able to hit survivors... It wouldn't happen often, but would actually make the concept seem more like it was originally alluded to. Especially for killers like Nemesis.
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@randonly said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2872102#Comment_2872102
The downside of CoH just like any other boom is that it makes you waste time that you could be investing in generators. The specific problem with CoH is, unlike the others, it is much more consistent and less situational, which could be solved with an increase in the totem's blessing time (or some token or cooldown system)
It costs the killer more time and pressure than it does setting them up, and the benefit of being able to heal without a medkit in a corner of the map the killer will never go to far outweighs being able to snuff it out and not even remove it. Blessing time has never and will never be a big enough penalty, as it doesn't address the actual problem with the perk. You can bless and rebless multiple times and still get enough value to completely invalidate hit and run playstyles, while the killer snuffing the totem only slightly pauses said value by comparison. Those two aren't even close to even with each other, so a change that gives the most affected negatively a chance to counterplay is the best solution.
Just in case I wasn't clear in the first part: A survivor blessing a totem leaves the killer looking for/chasing 1 survivor, with still another 2-3 to spare working on gens. The killer taking the time to walk over to and find the totem is often a MUCH bigger time sink than the 2 seconds snuffing the totem. It completely removes their pressure and resets their chase progress while simultaneously having zero impact on the 3+ survivors just holding M1.
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@randonly said:
I don't think it's a good idea to make Nurse's Calling base kit for all killers, especially since the reading radius would affect the whole map
it... wouldn't be? It would just be a downside to using the perk to heal for free, similar to how everything on the killer side is "gives x, but has Y downside when used." CoH needs a fitting downside since reworking boons entirely would basically kill the other ones in the process.
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@BlackRabies said:
Having the survivors aura be revealed while healing in CoH be overkill and be too beneficial for the killer. Rather just let the hemorrhoid changes go through first then decide. The hemorrhoid changes seems let the right step first before butchering CoH.
CoH is strongest when placed nowhere near places the killer has reason to patrol/chase/etc, Half the reason being how much time they have to waste to put it out. The aura reading would give them a little bit of info for when they can't waste tons of time to try to capitalize on the hemorrhage effect. Also gives them an idea of where the boon is, so they can at least minimize the time wasted trying to find and snuff it out.
Indoor maps where boon radius can cover multiple floors is a big reason for that aura suggestion, especially on maps like the game and midwich. Even then it still doesn't show you where the boon is (let alone what floor) so its not nearly as strong as you might assume.
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Imagine if 99ing gates for too long made one of the generators blow, so the gates would be unpowered until that one gen was fixed. Bonus: Survivors see a notification of which gen broke, but it has to be one of the furthest ones from either gate. If the gen reverts all the way to 0, two other gens break with no notification, but the gates will be repowered if any of the 3 are fixed.
The idea being the survivors would get a head start on which gen needs to be fixed, but if the killer finds out they can pressure that are of the map. If the stalemate goes on too long, the 1 gen becomes a 3 gen, but they can be any 3 gens so not necessarily an easy grouping to defend.
Could also have a few buffs for nice perks tied in, like Remember Me could affect the time it takes for a gen to explode, No way Out could force it, Wake Up could affect the repair speed of the re-broken gen, etc.
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This game's MMR punishes you for doing well, while simultaneously enforcing the player to take advantage of every single thing they can. It's both counter-intuitive and basically boils down to "if you want to win, you better sweat your ass off, that way you'll get even more sweaty matches as a reward." That type of thing works in games that are on even playing field (like most competitive games) but not when the 1v1 balance isnt there. With the absence of any coordination in rank/mmr/pips/challenges/etc you're trying to squeeze too many metrics into simple binary results, and we can use the bad hockey example to illustrate, though not in the usual way.
People like to focus on that example for showing very skilled play being both unrewarded and even punished, right? It actually affects even more facets: The players who avoid interaction and get gens done in <5 minutes aren't bad players, oftentimes thats the right thing for a good player to do. By finishing the gens so quickly however, they not only push the killer to play more lame (as they have to get at least 2 kills as well) but vastly limit the strategies both the killer and their own survivors have to alter the game. It basically devolves into a flowchart.
Meanwhile, the more they're one of the escapees, the more they're going to get 4 other players with the same mentality. Solo survivor is generally bad at most ranks simply because most survivors are bad. There are a very large number of amazing survivors, and a good deal more that are intermediate/above average, but it seems like survivors always want their MMR high so they can rely on their teammates more, and end up with swf tier efficiency. Then once they get it, they only see Blight and Nurse, NOED, tunneling 1-2 out, facecamping, etc... Because its the only tools killers generally have at that high of a level. So once again, being punished for good MMR.
A lot of MMRs problems would be lessened if the players had any indication of what their standing is, even just in a non-sharable way. While you can often tell an approximation of where you're at based on who you get matched with, backfill/swf/queue times/etc can all make things a lot less consistent to judge until suddenly there's 1 gen left, or 2 teammates dead.
I've embraced the "i honestly don't care about the outcome of the match" mentality as pretty much the only way I can play anymore, especially killer. "losing means i'll get easier matches" is a recursive fallacy (since winning said easier matches would then give harder ones) so people can't even use that mindset anymore. Its extremely easy for people to get frustrated with the way MMR and matchmaking in general is currently, but tbh its always been. just harder to know what you're actually mad at vs raninbow ranks in the past.
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no mention of how stupid inconsistent revealing him is half the time, just that its impossible on purpose if you've been marked.
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Its kinda silly how breakable walls went from initially being a buff for killers, then turning it into a massive nerf for them. funny, that.
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@Mooks said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2838429#Comment_2838429
Frankly I haven’t read your whole post (and I was kinda wondering if you actually meant to tag me as most stuff I have mentioned myself) but something caught my eyes:
I absolutely cannot stand when people blame the victim in regards to any type of illness or disability
its not blaming if people say that a person has to take precaution on their own. That doesn’t mean the person gets blamed or that the company isn’t to blame at all.
and again neither I nor anyone ever said that a warning shouldn’t be added or that BHVR shouldn’t fix the flashlight issues. I am actually Someone that is pretty much permanently asking for accessibility options and settings in all regards and have mentioned it often in my feedback for the devs.
that line was the tldr response to your post. You know that the vast majority of games have a near non-existant chance to cause any symptoms in any forms of epilepsy, right? Many people rely on those warnings to not only find out what the potential triggers are before playing, but also some people use them to set up "test sessions" with other people who can take care of them during any type of reaction that might happen. If people had to research every single game (let alone ones that evolve over time) it would be enough to make most just quit playing games entirely. There are actually even sites designed to review accessibility in games, and they often look specifically for those things to clarify for the readers. Flashlight macros are not an intentional part of the game, so they wouldn't even be found in those reviews. Likewise, things like the flashlight blind effect have changed over time, so their answer in 2018 might be different than in 2020. The onus is entirely on the company creating and/or maintaining the product.
Note how I was one of the voices about how much colorblindness was overlooked in the game (both in design and options) for a long ass time, but thats because things like colorblindness generally can't affect the end user's physical health. I share part of the blame for playing a game that has poor (upgraded from non-existent!) colorblindness accommodation. The impact to my health is null, and it is something that is not related to external stimuli causing harm. While I might very much want them to improve the accommodation provided, even when there was none it was harmless.
Once potential harm comes into the equation, the formula becomes more binary. If the worst that happened was a minor headache, it would still be shared (though obviously shifted) and the worse the possible consequences, the more the party that can cause harm through negligence is solely to blame. Especially since, again, these problems can fall through the cracks of even their own research.
Agreeing with the other stuff I discussed is great and all, but again, victim blaming not only makes the situation far worse for them, but in cases like this isn't even remotely accurate.
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@Mooks said:
It’s really scary how many people here lack reading competence and are trying to put words in others mouths.
no one said the way it currently is is okay or that BHVR doesn’t need to fix anything. And everyone agreed a warning is the bare minimum that is needed not ASAP but since launch.
but people suffering from epilepsy should take their own precautions. In the end it is their health and they are the ones suffering. Blaming the devs/company that a warning was lacking is warranted but it doesn’t really help you after all. Videogames are always a risk. which is of course not fair but it’s also no one’s fault.
BHVR has been woefully behind on accessability and even basic knowledge of disabilities that could impact their product, as well as the impact their product can likewise have on people. As others have said, many companies at least throw a generic warning if there is a possibility of something like this scenario, even if they have no research that it can/can't happen. After seeing how other accessibility issues have been handled in the past, people are teetering between "they didn't think about it" and "they did, but didn't care" which are both pretty bad looks.
Flashlight macros being problems isn't even new. It used to flat out crash the game for people, which of course people exploited to force people to crash mid match if they were trolling or losing (or both.) IIRC there is a small delay now because of that, when before it was tied purely to the framerate or something. So they did address the cause (flashlight macro) without seeing if there was anything else that could have been done (like, say, making the battery drain rapidly if people did it, some kind of punishment specifically for abuse) and the half measure leaves other issues as landmines waiting for someone to step on em. Hell, even if they just made the minimum cooldown considerably longer (like maybe a second) the chances of this happening would be considerably lower.
These types of scenarios are why people keep asking for real fixes instead of constant bandaids to problems ingame: much like the difficulties of bugfixing/balancing in general, there will always be factors you're not thinking about in the moment. It is always better to do something right than do it quick. Accessibility is more than just being able to remap controls, for some people (especially those with any type of neurological disorder) it can affect them outside the game as well.
That all said, like I and others have mentioned before, seizure triggers vary from person to person. Epilepsy itself has multiple versions that affect people in very different ways, from triggers to reactions. Since the bare minimum of "Hey you know there might be a chance that this could cause issues, be careful" isn't in the game, people can let their guard down. In fact, its something thats barely inherent in the game, as others have mentioned very few (granted, more than zero) things have a chance of causing episodes in people, so they could play the game for years and never know how much fire they've been playing with the whole time. And since it varies from person to person, some might be completely unaffected even with exposure.
The worst part is that there's a very easy way to err on the side of caution, make an option to get around the issue, something BHVR dreads. Lets say that the strobing light paired with the fast, repeated sound will cause a trigger in person the player (we'll just call him Dwight.) Dwight might be ok with flashlight blinds in general, but that specific sequence will cause an episode for him. Meanwhile another person (Feng) might have problems with the bright pulsing light, or even just simply the rapid light adjustment/photosensitivity. A simple option to disable both would not only help both players not have a possibly life threatening reaction, but it would even overlap with other issues as well (again, photosensitivity alone is present in a LOT of conditions.)
All it would need is an alternative sequence... for the clicking scenario, make it so the sound and light projection are replaced on the end user's side with dummy files if used too often, then released to normal after enough time has passed. That way the end user can disable it if there is an issue, while not affecting other players who might want it for more legitimate reasons (getting another players attention with a few small clicks, for example.) Likewise, since the blindness effect is purely part of the killer's first person camera, an alternate overlay that uses subtractive lighting instead of what it currently does could similarly prevent view while not causing issues. In this mode it would be best to have it be more gradual in either direction, of course.
I know stuff like that last one sounds odd to most people (a flashlight making things darker??) but again, this is in regards to accessibility. There are things like movement trackers for people who are visually impaired that help them key in on parts of the screen to prioritize movement better, while even fully blind people can play stuff like fighting games as long as the audio clarity and attenuation is good.
Kinda turned into a little bit of a rant on top of the suggestions/explinations, but I absolutely cannot stand when people blame the victim in regards to any type of illness or disability. Most people who have them don't ask for more accomidation than is necessary, and they're more important than the throwaway "but other people can use it for an advantage" copout that accessibility discussions are always met by. People without these problems are already getting an unfair advantage by not having to worry about things like, say, a life threatening episode, and then some of them turn around and blame that person as well. If even the very minimum generic message stuff was present and not hidden, it would be enough for susceptable people to at least research what possible things could cause it rather than get blindsided out of nowhere midmatch with all of the other stimuli going on.