Pulsar
Pulsar
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@HamsterEnjoyer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858149#Comment_3858149
Well it DID happen thats why Skull Merchant was gutted. Hating her was a meme and solely a meme, there was no basis to 90% of hte complaints because the complaints were all left over from her first introduction. The meme to hate her began before her PTB even did with people trashing her design then trashing her all over the PTB then trashing her on launch when 'chess merchant' became a thing. She was a meme to hate during her entire conception.
People disliked her in the PTB. She was not what a lot of people thought they were going to get.
She was weak, except for when you held onto gens. She was not a typical-looking Killer with her bedazzled and glittery mask.
You cannot seriously be blaming people for hating Chess Merchant, which, let's be real, is all people really played while it was available.
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@Equinox_One said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858169#Comment_3858169
You genuinely think gutting a killer and leaving them in a deliberately non-viable state expressly to stop people playing that killer as some sort of community scapegoat is appropriate, especially when you've sold cosmetics for that killer - rather than simply tweaking that killer…?
I'm hopeful that you didn't put that right because that's genuinely vindictive.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858177#Comment_3858177
No, SM had some aspects to her kit that were a bit much.
Thing is, simply removing the dormant drone state (this was the problem imho as it could be incredibly hard to spot them mid chase and always gave one scan) would have sufficed.
But it wasn't about balance.
It was about placating community QQ by basically deleting a character indefinitely.
Do they have some basis for their actions or not?
Is there some sort of design issue that's being exploited? Or is this just a normal Trapper
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858203#Comment_3858203
That would mean her current state is not working towards her "ideal" state. There's no data to collect from her current state to balance towards.
Like I said, hopefully, but I doubt that's what is going to happen.
They'll probaboy do something ala Twins and then scrap it and call it a day with some QoL
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858176#Comment_3858176
It ment instead of being in deep wounds and setting up your team for chain hits, you could at most force an M1.
By removing power from his ability to buff his normal M1 gameplay (which making him 115 is the basis of) it means he's not overly reliant on FF to down ppl. 3 years is still alot, but at least we could see where they were trying to go with this. Can you say the same about SM? Do the SM changes give you ANY idea on their plans or do they give you the idea she will be completely different from how she is now if they ever get around to her.
Hopefully different, like I still maintain Legion should've been.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858158#Comment_3858158
I wanna make a note. The locker thing was actually big since people figured out you could jump in a locker to force Legion out of his power. It's the same thing they'd do against Victor until they gave Victor the locker hold thing he has now.
Overall, this update set alot of groundwork. Definitely wasn't perfect, but set a situation where they could simply buff numbers. This isn't similar to SM... They didn't shift power, JUST remove.
It wasn't quite as impactful because his Fatigue wasn't as long, and Cold Dirt was very popular, iirc.
They didn't shift power here either, they made it so that they could build off of it later.
And then got around to it 3 years later.
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@Equinox_One said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858149#Comment_3858149
I'm using 'meme' in the original way, not the colloquial one. A self propagating phenomenon within culture. It's why crouching repeatedly is a fairly universal way of being BM. It's a meme. Not in the 'picture plus text' internet way.
Again, no hypothetical is perfect. So fine, since you're just going to keep attacking the hypothetical rather than entertaining the question, let's rephrase. People decide to start mass suiciding against x killer. BHVR nukes the killer to a deliberately non-viable state where the killer is left to languish indefinitely.
Is this an appropriate action to take, and if so - why?
The 'use power leave loop' is maybe half the killer roster but that's also besides the point.
It depends. Is it, at least, somewhat grounded in reality? Do they have some basis for their actions in your hypothetical?
Also, yes, and it was okay for the first 10 Killers. Now it's a little repetitive.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858104#Comment_3858104
The 2.7.0 patch is when he was made into a 115 killer. Some addons were nerfed, some buffed. The moonwalking thing was obviously not intended. This whole thing would be a side grade essentially rather than a full on sledge hammer nerf like SM got. There wasn't anything added that tried to balance out what she was losing.
Alright, let's break it down. Keep in mind, I do think these changes were all positive, in the long run. They needed to happen, but they did hurt him a lot.
Legion can now search lockers in Frenzy. Okay, sure, not really important but alright.
Legion m/s went to 115%. Consequential, very helpful, but just being 115% doesn't make a Killer good.
Attacks outside of Frenzy only reduce the power bar by 50%. This should not have even been a thing. You are still punished for landing M1's.
FF duration buff. Good, nice.
Bigger TR hurt him a lot back then. Monitor was a popular pick to play a little stealth Legion since he almost looked like a Survivor.
No pools of Blood was weird, but not really consequential.
FF movement speed reduced. That hurt a lot, you couldn't close distance as effectively on loops, even with the longer duration.
Vault speed reduced. Really hurt him on loops, made it impossible to get hits at certain structures.
FF cancels on miss. Massive nerf, really hurt Console players locked to sub-30 FPS.
Recharge time increased. Big nerf.
Fatigue increased. Survivors make even more distance on you.
FF must be fully recharged. You HAVE to wait for the full 20 seconds, unless you M1 someone, then the gauge halves.
Deep Wound no longer ticks down in TR. Pretty massive nerf for a Killer dependent on Deep Wound.
No longer able to reduce Deep Wound by FF hit. Again, massive nerf to his lethality.
He got dumpster'd. His entire power became completely non-lethal and unthreatening.
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@Equinox_One said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858107#Comment_3858107
Hardly absurd. Let's say someone with a massive platform like Hens or Ayrun decided to do this. It always propagates from there.
But address the hypothetical rather than deflecting. Assume that a meme started where people decided that they didn't like playing against Artist. Forget the specifics. A case where a killer that isn't OP (Artist) became disliked for some reason.
Should Artist be given the same treatment as SM?
I'm all for making common sense changes to balance an obviously broken killer, but this wasn't that. This was burning a killer to the ground rather than a few small changes to reign them in, with the express purpose of people not playing that killer - likely for multiple years, possibly indefinitely.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858106#Comment_3858106
This is why the SM gutting is so frustrating.
It's not just Mandy gloating about it on a stream or that it was clearly done in a cynical, meanspirited way that goes beyond a simple overreaction.
It's not that BHVR had their arms twisted by a manipulative and petty portion of the playerbase, setting the precedent that all survivors need to do to get a killer nerfed is creating a meme.
It's that SM mains know, fairly conclusively that 'next year' will turn into 'it's on our radar but no changes are expected at this time', to 'we'll revisit it in 2028'. It's all but a certainty because that's BHVR's track record.
See also: Freddy rework.
The hypothetical is ridiculous because it hasn't ever happened before. There is no basis for a mass case of a "meme" getting out of hand and causing a Killer to be gutted.
Also, as for your CC comment, maybe Hens or Ayrun could influence a sizable portion of the NA and Europe playerbase, MAYBE. Asian players play an entirely different game and I know DBD has a huge Spanish-speaking community as well. At MOST, Hens and Ayrun could maybe convince 20% of that playerbase to do something. How in the hell could they make all Survivor players throw for a "meme"
I hate to break it to you, but Artist is already disliked and has been since she released. She's another, "Place power at loop, Survivor must leave loop or die" Killer. The reason the hatred isn't as strong is two-fold. For one, she wasn't used to hold people hostage. For two, even if she plays in that "boring" way of placing a Bird at a loop immediately, the Survivor DOES still get to interact with the Killer. When SM was used in her "boring" way, there wasn't any interaction, there was tedium.
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@Equinox_One said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3857959#Comment_3857959
No. But what if they did?
What if some streamer decided to start a meme where people just mass DC and suicide against Artist?
Would that justify gutting Artist in expectation of some nebulous 'we'll fix her in a few years haha just don't play her for a while' statement?
Because if not, how was it justified for SM?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858084#Comment_3858084
Freddy nerfing. Which is what's going to happen with SM, I'm almost completely sure. 'We'll rework down the line', getting pushed back and finally forgotten.
So putting aside the absurd nature of the base for your argument, it would be appropriate to respond to people's concerns.
Streamers don't have enough influence to tell, say, 25 million players what to do.
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@HamsterEnjoyer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858084#Comment_3858084
Well I think Pulsar is agreeing they don't have a speedy record and saying it would acceptable if they did (but they don't)
Yes, that is what I am saying.
The idea is fine. Responding to mass outcry and revisiting is a good idea. Doing half of that and waiting three years for the other half isn't.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858009#Comment_3858009
The nurse thing can be tossed from the conversation entirely. That was killswitching bugged content. That's WAY different than what we're talking about.
Your twins example is basically going AGAINST your point. If BHVR had a pattern of speedy turnaround for their "fixes" they'd have earned more patience and goodwill with the community to these things. They don't though... Their track record is terrible.
As for the Legion example... Please point out a patch that was anywhere NEAR what happened with SM. I'm use to seeing a nerf here or there, SM got an execution. Legit though, I wanna see what patch you're referring to that nerfed Legion.
That's my entire point, BHVR is bad at moving at any pace resembling speed.
IIrc, the Legion patch was 2.7.0
That would've been the patch that got rid of the horrible Legion moonwalking/Frank's Mixtape playstyle that was so hated. We all knew that the Legion was a pretty bad Killer, but that playstyle allowed them to make sure one or two people died, no matter what. Horrible stuff that removed any and all skill expression from Survivors. I remember people DC'ing upon seeing that it was Legion way back when.
That nerf pushed him to the bottom of the barrel with Trapper (and old Freddy and Bubster) for the next few years. He got "executed", just like SM. There are no Dev comments from back then that I can find though.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3857973#Comment_3857973
You don't make changes to something followed by "we'll fix this later" if your changes were meant to make things balances.
I mean, you can, provided the changes come in a timely manner.
They did it with Nurse. They said, "Hey, yeah, so Nurse is super bugged right now and instead of letting you play her, we're actually just gonna killswitch her until we fix those bugs"
The OG Legion nerfs. He was a weak Killer prior to those nerfs, he was just extremely bad design.
Twins nerf in 4.7 with promise of rework that never turned out.
I'm sure there are more, but those are what I remember. This isn't a new phenomena
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3857956#Comment_3857956
This has been a crazy talk, lol. I can show you why a the 70% is as it is... because of survivor hissy fits. I can show you clips of survivor behavior skewing stats and you acknowledged that THAT had 0 to do with the killer performance that match. So we can agree that it wasn't due to a balance issue rather than popularity. People were adding "I hate her lore and the way she walks" to reasons they hate her, lol.
You can look at this, look at a reduction of effectiveness of over 50% and then honestly tell me it was an attempt at balance rather than to appease people who hated her mere presence in the game and would often ask the character to be deleted entirely? Are you claiming the nerfs put her in a balanced state NOW? That the devs plans for future changes arnt needed? The only reason the complaints about her existing stopped is because her pickrate is abysmal.
And I'm sure I can find clips of SM holding people in games post-nerf.
That wasn't my point, my point was that BHVR has never done a great job at looking at the context of a stat line. They often seem to look at the data how it is presented.
I think, much like Old Legion, there IS no way to balance her in her current form. She will either always be too weak, which isn't good for people who want to play her, too strong which allowed her to hold people hostage or too unpleasant to face.
Actually, it IS rather like Old Legion. A Killer hated like no other before, who's intensely poor design allowed horrible mechanics to take root that nobody enjoyed playing against. Legion got demolished three months after he released and waited six months for a tiny balance adjustment then over three years for a rework that made him okay, all the while he sat at the bottom of the barrel of Killers.
This exact scenario has happened before, and I had kind of forgotten.
I think they did genuinely mean to change her and try to balance her out. I think they ignored the context of the data, because it was likely more convenient, and nerfed her. I do not think she is balanced, I do not think she can be balanced in her current form. More than that, I do not think she will ever be fun to play against in her current form. I hope, I stress that word, that BHVR does a ground-up rework and scraps the stationary Gen Watchers for something else, maybe Hunter Drones or something, idk.
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@Equinox_One said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3857547#Comment_3857547
Thing is - was this organic? Because I don't think there's anything particularly annoying about SM that isn't more true of other killers.
Or was it a forced meme that got out of hand?
Regardless, it does indeed set a crap precedent. Because now people know that they have the power to force BHVR to completely trash killers at will by simply killing themselves.
I mean - I'm a Hag and Artist main. Two killers that people don't enjoy facing. Would it be fair to completely gut these killers?
Do Hag and Artist have a 70% KR, likely fueled by suicides and a super high DC rate?
Probably not.
I don't think it's hard to see a HUGE difference in community perception between the 2nd most hated Killer and SM
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3857935#Comment_3857935
You understand they can't openly say those words because it would be grounds for a lawsuit, correct? There's a massive difference between small adjustment for balance sake and what they did recently which would be better defined as sabotaging a product that was already sold.
So you're just basing it off of conjecture?
Like you said, could be grounds for a lawsuit, probably need more evidence to say they specifically wanted to make sure nobody played her.
What's more likely is that BHVR say a super high KR, likely super high DC rate and a majorly unhappy community, even after changes, and decided to nerf her. They overestimated her power level, but have decided to just let her be in hopes of redesigning hee, hopefully. That part is probably wishful thinking.
I think it's less likely they did it on purpose, more likely they did it on accident.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3857888#Comment_3857888
As a company, I don't think you'd last very long if you sold a product, then severely gutted the proformance of that product afterwards with the sole intention of detering people from using said product and instead buying one of their OTHER products. The nerfs that were done in the past to various perks/addons/ect were all done for the sake of balance, not to try to lower it's usage to 0.
Perhaps not, but I've seen that argument made for whenever BHVR nerfs something in their first balance patch after release, which is coincidentally usually when they start hyping up a new chapter.
Where did they say they wanted SM's pick rate to be zero?
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3857588#Comment_3857588
Not really, we just have an issue when silly things happen due to what we perceive as unreasonable whining. The whole "We should disregard that feedback and carry on?" In certain cases that answer is yes. Hell the 3 of us don't even know if her previous iteration was genuinely good or bad due to only having 5 games where no one quit first thing.
As a studio, I don't think you survive very long by ignoring outcry from a majority of your playerbase, respectfully.
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@BlackRose89 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3857733#Comment_3857733
New flash…ppl can use anything to troll in this game or any game in that matter. Reworking SM isnt going to magiclly going to get rid of trolls. You live in the age of the internet, trolls will always be around no matter what. Let's rework a killer bc trolls use her…that amazing reason to do it… Either way, we never agree on anything. I seen you on the forum long enough to know you have always hated SM and no matter what I say will ever change your mind about that fact. You are the primal example that no matter what they do to this killer ppl will always hate her. Anyway, Im done with this and I am moving on. I leave it at this, she was completely fine after her last rework, and reworking her again is only wasting time that could be used to show killers who need the help of love. Have a nice day…
Denying that SM was used the most to troll is silly. We all know her history, how people picked her not to win, but to make others miserable by trapping them in a game.
If we don't really change her, but just give her number tweaks, that isn't going to make the SM mains happy. Her issues run deeper than what number changes can provide, she wouldn't be viable. It would also do nothing to improve their ability to play the game.
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@BlackRose89 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3857731#Comment_3857731
I never said do nothing…I said they need to do what they doing to killers now, make balance changes, and not a compete rework. Again we talking about a killer who wasn't touched at all for a year after her last rework. They left her in the same state for a year and never tried to make slight adjustments to her kit. Instead, they just cave to the complaints and decide "F*** it" and throw everything out the window, nerfed her to be the worst killer in the game, and told us to wait for "year" for them to "fix" her. How is that a good solution.
The "other solution" was to micro-change her, making nobody happy except people who used her to troll.
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@BlackRose89 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3857700#Comment_3857700
Honestly yes, you leave her be and do balance changes like they are doing to Dracula and other newer killers. The thing is I rather them do this and tell the community to learn how to play against her than what they doing now. The "solution" they chose to do isnt a good one at all. It wasn't a good thing when they did it to Freddy, wasn't good for SM and it's not good for HM rope addon. Doing this only sets a bad precedent esp when it comes to SM bc it sends a message of "If ppl complain enough about something it will lead to devs nerfing that something into the ground with the promise of reworking it months or even years later." Leaving SM in a state that makes her a F-tier killer for what easily could be years isn't a solution. Its like sweeping your mess under the bed and saying "I clean that up later." Watch what I tell you, SM rework will be pushed back and we won't be getting it late next year, it be like twins all over again where she be worked on for 2 years and when it does happen it won't make an ounce of difference. Time and resources will be wasted on something that should never been reworked to begin with.
So instead, you propose we do nothing and pretend there isn't an issue?
Is that not the same thing?
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@Brokenbones said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3857712#Comment_3857712
While you're mostly correct, I do think Chucky and Dracula show that BHVR is willing to deviate a bit from the standard formula. Chucky bringing in 3rd person and Dracula with his shapeshifting between multiple forms opens a lot of doors.
Houndmaster even incorporated 3rd person slightly with her redirect function.
I just hope future designs use it in more creative ways. If Twins was made today, 100% Victor would probably be third person
True, but I'm talking burrowing, dynamic map destruction from some Killers, better effects, more verticality etc etc
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3857697#Comment_3857697
I can think of a few other killers who fit this description.
No doubt, I really feel that DBD's code is holding it back from being more creative with Killer designs…and also looking better.
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@BlackRose89 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3857657#Comment_3857657
There was no bait and switch at all. All we got from a teaser was a picture of a skill with some tech in it. It's the community's fault for reading so much into a teaser and just believing we was going to get a cyborg killer. Ppl set themselves up for failure, BHVR didn't bait and switch them. As for the other stuff, all of it is subjective even her lore imo. I liked her design, I liked the idea of a killer using drones, and I liked her lore. Sure her power was poorly designed at first but the idea behind her power was cool and imo her last rework did fix a lot of the issues her power had on release. Also about her Lore, it may been poorly written to some but at least it was different! Before her all-female original killers lore always painted them as victims, nothing super original in their stories whatsoever. At least SM is a killer bc she wants to kill ppl, she was forced or felt like she needed to kill bc some tragic event that happened in her life. Name one female killer in dbd that devs came up with themselves that is not some victim?
Either way, I agree with GeneralV you don't rework her and tell ppl to learn to play against her. Maybe even make videos on how to counter her and play against her. She didn't need another rework after her last one. At most, she just needs some small changes to raise her skill floor and raise her skill ceiling. Again after her last rework, BHVR didn't touch her again till this past oct when they decided to nerf her to the ground with the promise of a future rework that could take years to do. If they put in the same effort into SM as they are doing to newer killers like Dracala and Chucky then she would most likly be in a even better spot. I don't think the rework will do anything bc ppl will continue to hold their hatred for her and will DC/go next against her no matter what her power is. This means all the time she is in a such poor state and the time the dev is wasting on reworking her will amount to nothing. Time that could be used for much more important things.
Is SM not also a victim then, by your standard?
Her father dies and it forces her into this ruthless lifestyle. It's a different way, but she's still a victim of circumstance.
So then, what's the solution? Just leave her with a 70% KR and massive community hatred with no SM being able to finish a game? That's what leaving her alone would do.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3857670#Comment_3857670
This is abit older, but still gives an idea of what survivors were doing to dodge the penalty. A guy tried to die, got saved and followed the killer.
I'm not denying this happened a lot, or still does, I'm saying these videos don't really matter.
I can find videos of people sticking aroundfor fifty minutes to beat her with 0 hooks, it doesn't really demonstrate anything.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3857664#Comment_3857664
No worries :)
Knight was considered very problematic on release due to his Guards and his being able to hold games hostage.
Yes, but not quite in the same level. You can find some complaints about Knight, sure.
But it doesn't seem to me he was ever considered a problem of the same category as PTB Twins, or Old Legion.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3857675#Comment_3857675
Either way, I agree with GeneralV you don't rework her and tell ppl to learn to play against her.
Thank you, my friend <3
More in line with Legion, honestly.
Not actually OP, just really unfun and bad design.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3857661#Comment_3857661
Looks like he's checking gens for progress while hitting the power as soon as it comes out of CD rather than trying to put drones at gens. Without lethal, this is basically the only way you're gonna spot survivors on a map like this early game.
Other than map sense or not picking NOED/Lightborn.
Look, I like Spook, but he's a reaction guy. He tries to get reactions, and he plays that way to get them. I'm not saying the Nic isn't in the wrong, but Spook got what he wanted, an easy video.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3857661#Comment_3857661
So... it was just a random unrelated observation? Neat
Yes :)
The video doesn't really mean anything, ultimately.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3857645#Comment_3857645
Quite the contrary, you did wake up someone who got slugged. You can see it in this video at 07:19
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5J0zdxZYWqs
If you are asleep, then you can't wake up someone who got slugged, but you can pick them up. Even with with the Dream World penalty if the person recovers as much as possible it should be enough to get them off the ground, especially against a killer who lacks mobility.
There was also less of a window for Survivors to make distance after being put to sleep, since Freddy didn't really slow down at all when doing so
1 second, later increased to 3 after the nerfs. However, this was both on the Freddy player and the survivor. The lullaby gives you a warning, plus you have 7 seconds at base to find something to use, back when maps had more resources. If you fail, then Freddy should indeed get the hit.
Knight could do the same thing as SM on release, we've seen it in plenty of videos, yet he isn't nearly as hated.
Because Knight wasn't regarded as a problematic killer like Old Legion, OG Merchant or PTB Twins.
He may have been disliked, but he didn't reach this level. So Knight would never reach this level. That is why the data for them are different.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3857650#Comment_3857650
I do agree that they shouldn't have nerfed her and instead told the community that they needed to learn to play against her.
Well said, friend.
I was mistaken, my bad, this has been seven years now, forgive me.
Knight was considered very problematic on release due to his Guards and his being able to hold games hostage.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3857633#Comment_3857633
To be fair, that didn't influence the cage at all... Games like this one still counted to get SM to the 70% rate people keep pointing at.
I am aware, he didn't know, I even pointed that out.
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@BlackRose89 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3857641#Comment_3857641
I like to add she was hated the second they even showed her off. I remember seeing threads in the forums about how ppl hated how she looked, how boring her power was, how her lore sucked, she wasn't the cyborg killer ppl thought she was going to be, and how she was some how a failed predator chapter. Chess Merchant only added even more fuel to the hated fire. With all that has happen to SM, I firmly believe she will forever be the most hated killer in dbd history and ppl will continue to go next against her even after her next rework.
I do agree that they shouldn't have nerfed her and instead told the community that they needed to learn to play against her. I think her last rework put her in a decent spot and she could have been better with some balance changes(remember the didn't even try to torch her after her last rework, she didn't get a single balance change before they completed nerfed her to the ground). She doesn't need another complete rework, her last version was fine and just needed some small changes.
It did feel like a bait and switch at the time, and her look is definitely…uh, not my cup of tea. All of that is subjective though.
Her lore, on release not sure how it is now, did suck. It was objectively poorly written. Her power was…yeah, I think we all know what a master-class disaster that was.
What do you propose to do if the Killer is still vehemently hated after another rework? You can't leave her alone if she's a consistent outlier in DC's and suicides.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3857623#Comment_3857623
That was on release, yes. But the slugging alone shouldn't have been enough to cause such distress. Waking someone up takes, like, 3 seconds? Shouldn't be impossible to deal with.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3857634#Comment_3857634
Because the other hated killers didn't have a problematic release.
Well, Nurse was always OP, but it was a vastly different game back then. None of those have a "Chess Merchant" of their own (though that had more to do with the build, rather than the killer power, but that is beside the point).
That makes the data for her different than others, but still doesn't tell you everything.
IIrc, you couldn't wake up someone slugged, and since Freddy had perma-aura reading on anyone asleep, he was very good at keeping people down, especially since you wouldn't wake up after being healed.
There was also less of a window for Survivors to make distance after being put to sleep, since Freddy didn't really slow down at all when doing so. Iirc, he also vaulted a little faster, for some reason.
Knight could do the same thing as SM on release, we've seen it in plenty of videos, yet he isn't nearly as hated.
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It's always been this bad.
I remember around the Third Year Anniversary they pushed a horrible VFX change that gave people headaches whenever they got stunned or blinded.
Twins entire release.
SM's entire release.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3857591#Comment_3857591
Of course her kill rate would be high when people always DC. If they decided to stay in the game, they would have no idea what to do.
Also, in matches where a DC happens the remaining survivors are kinda screwed, there is nothing they can do. And even if you exclude ever single match where there is a DC, there are ways to bypass it: suicide on hook, people who try to suicide on hook but can't because one teammate saves them, then they just give up, players who get slugged for extended periods of time, and the list goes on.
I don't think the kill rates are reliable. Freddy has the fourth highest in the game, and he is not a good character at all. The data doesn't tell you everything..
The data tells you something is wrong with SM because even other hated Killers aren't that high.
It's something unique to her. Pinhead isn't like that, Nurse isn't, Knight isn't, etc etc
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3857582#Comment_3857582
I remembered this video from awhile ago...
This was a fairly average experience. People trying to die first hook IF they even bother running. This match btw counts towards that 70% killrate...
To be fair, not that the Cage knew, but the first thing that SM did was put up a Drone on a gen lol
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3857547#Comment_3857547
But here is the thing, my friend, PTB Twins is not equivalent to previous Skull Merchant. When it comes to PTB Twins, the problem is actually real. Just like Old Legion, a terribly designed killer that we both remember all too well. In those scenarios the problem is actually there, which can be seen during regular gameplay.
The previous iteration of Skull Merchant is more similar to OG Freddy, where the problem doesn't exist it. The outrage is not caused by an actual issue that exists in the game, it is done in bad faith. It is the consequence of some players refusing to adapt to something that isn't a problem in the first place. It is a type of behavior that should never be rewarded, though unfortunately it was rewarded twice.
You cannot get used to something that is problematic. But you can get used to something that isn't.
Except, even then, her KR was 70%.
DC matches aren't even counted.
There is CLEARLY something problematic there.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3857547#Comment_3857547
To be fair, its very much depending on context. Should the devs cave into every brat's whim the game is pretty much going to die on its own. What we know about merchant is that she had a "high kill rate" and that there were many DCs against her. Why? Was it because she op? Was it because people held a grudge? That first one we'd agree Bhvr should do something, that second we'd argue ignore them cause then your practically enabling and telling the children "if we do this then we can nerf anything we want". There needs to be a balance.
Twins are not exactly well-liked. It could have been a grudge there too.
You are treating it like there's some coordinated effort from players to make sure SM is unplayable. Most people don't care that much.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3857547#Comment_3857547
Who was eating penalties though? People found a way to "go next" with no penalty at all knowing they could essentially pick the killer they want to go against.
According to SM players, everyone was DC'ing as soon as they saw it was SM.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3857519#Comment_3857519
They weren't, my friend. The games were perfectly fine, even better than matches against most of the killer roster, I would say.
There was a middle ground, an acceptable state, and it got destroyed because the petty DCs did not stop. It is the problem of players refusing to adapt, friend, just like Freddy. Same results, different killers.
I honestly believe all of her recent nerfs should be reverted, the rework scrapped, and players should be explicitly told to learn how to play against the character. To not DC, to stick around and get used to the drones. Nobody ever improves in DBD if all they do is disconnect.
So if, let's be generous and say, 60% of players find something to be so unpleasant they'd rather eat a penalty than chance playing against it, we should simply ignore it?
We should disregard that feedback and carry on? That seems like a very poor idea. Imagine if we had done that with PTB buffed Twins. "Oh, most of our community hates this Killer and finds matches against them unbearable? Oh well, they'll just have to get used to it"
Not a great idea, as I'm sure you can see.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3855512#Comment_3855512
I'm not convinced the outcry was in good faith. And doesn't your last sentence contradict what you just said? They did change fast, and the add-on was nerfed as a result.
My bad, I forgot that 25 million Survivors have a secret society where they conspire to take down all Killer players.
They changed it fast and then left it. They are really good at breaking things, not so good at making them better.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3857293#Comment_3857293
If most players find something problematic why shouldn't we fix it?
Because they didn't even try, and that is the point.
Many players were so blinded by hatred for the original iteration of the character, which no longer existed, that they would DC or give up immediately, when it was absolutely not needed. If you don't stick around, then you'll never understand the fact that the character no longer causes any actual problems for the game.
This is people refusing to learn how to play against something, and it wasn't the first time it happened. Freddy's release is another example. And both got the character nerfed, when neither character needed the nerfs. Refusing to learn how to play against a character that is not problematic is something that should never be rewarded.
The previous iteration of Skull Merchant was perfectly fine, and in fact she wasn't hard to play against at all. I can even share some screenshots to prove it. Games where people decided to stick around and actually play the game.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3857393#Comment_3857393
I'm not convinced the outcry was in good faith
I'm positive it wasn't.
The previous iteration was STILL extremely tedious to play against. Matches took far too long when played out.
I wish there was a middle ground, but there really wasn't for her.
SM players aren't going to get what they want until there's a rework and even then, her reputation might be beyond salvaging. Not sure what you do at that point.
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@MrMori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3856179#Comment_3856179
Claiming that she can replace drones with zero cooldown and calling it a time investment for survivors makes zero sense. SM has to show up, remove the drone, then stand under it to replace it. Also, she gets a 10 second cooldown whenever she places a drone, in case you didn't know. Disabling a drone takes 4 seconds and is in no way a time sink for survivors compared to walking over and replacing the drone for Skull Merchant.
Claiming that the 4 seconds it takes to run up to and disable a drone makes gen regression stronger is a huge overstatement. If anything, the real problem with her 3-genning after the initial rework was that there is no way to remove lock on stacks, so eventually she'll get a down simply because the survivors gain lock on stacks.
Did you ever actually play Skull Merchant when she had 2 scanlines? Trying to 3 gen as her was not effective against good players especially ones on comms. Average players maybe, but any killer can hold a 3 gen against average survivors because the average survivor doesn't know how to play against it.
Most SM's were already going to show up to the gen as part of their patrol. They don't get slowed down, they'll just pass near the gen and drop a drone on it while they chase people off.
That minigame is also not as easy on Console.
No, I didn't touch SM after I learned what she was. I did have the unfortunate pleasure to play against her though. If most players find something problematic why shouldn't we fix it? If SM is killing normal players at a 70% KR, but high level players at a 50% KR, that SHOULD be a sign that there's something hugely wrong.
What you actually found with SM was that it was higher level players that just went next. She was completely beatable, but she was extremely tedious to go against and a lot of those players don't like that part of the game, which is fair.
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I just don't think she'll ever be very enjoyable to play against.
Fighting an AI dog for control over your character just looks frustrating
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@HamsterEnjoyer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3856087#Comment_3856087
Genuinely asking how was she the best 3 gen killer after her rework and what about her power allowed her to extend the game far beyond any other killers ability to do so?
The fact that you have to disable the Drones to work on gens. It's not like you can just crouch away when SM shows up. That Drone needs to be gone or you're gonna get scanned when she comes back.
The fact that Drones made any and all gen regression stronger due to their mandatory time sink to do gens.
The fact that Drones could just be instantly replaced when patrolling with zero cooldown.
The fact that it's all a lot of players would do, simply because they could. Even in scenario's where they could win by killing Survivors, they'd choose to just keep stalling.
Who'd be better?
Hag? Not likely.
Plague? Maybe? Puke doesn't really do anything once your injured, unlike SM's Haste + Hindered. It also doesn't create AoE denials.
Singu? Again, maybe? His BioPods get disabled easy though, but being Slipstreamed is more impactful than being Infected against Plague.
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@ObsidianButterfly said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3856079#Comment_3856079
You are still wrong. After her first rework and the generator limit changes, she was no better at holding gens than any other killer. And again, she was worse at it than others due to lack of movement ability.
And honestly, if you got 3-genned post rework/regress limit, that was entirely the survivor's fault for not spreading gens. Just like it is for any other killer.
"You are wrong because I said so, she was simply not doing that despite evidence to the contrary."
Don't see much point in continuing this then.
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@ObsidianButterfly said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3856070#Comment_3856070
Yes I did, because you were insinuating those tactics when you accuse her players of "abusing and exploiting her kit." How would the players do that if not using it do the things survivors typically hate? You obviously didn't say the words specifically so you could hand wave away the argument, like you just did, but everyone knows that is what you are saying. Because it is ALWAYS what everyone argues.
If I'm wrong, then be specific about what abuses they were using and how they were using it.
"you obviously"
You know what they say about assuming.
Actually I was referring to her ability to hold gens, even after her nerfs. Also her ability to just prolong games and make them miserable, even if she ultimately lost.
I don't mind being asked to clarify my points.
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@ObsidianButterfly said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3856056#Comment_3856056
This is such a trash argument. She never slugged, camped or tunneled any better than any other killer. In fact, she's actually worse at it than a lot of others because she has no movement ability. Trying to use stuff like that as justification is laughable as it can be used on EVERYONE. Should I be going around demanding Blight and Billy be nerfed into the ground because I've never met one that didn't slug and/or tunnel people? No, because that is stupid.
Did you mean to respond to me? I never mentioned anything about slugging, camping or tunneling.
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@HamsterEnjoyer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3855659#Comment_3855659
Nurse was killswitched because the bug actually made the game completely unplayable for her not because she was OP if I recall correctly. SM was essentially killswitched into an M1 killer simply because people didn't want to learn her power and didn't realize every complaint about her was just invalidated back when they reworked her the first time.
She was playable, but unpleasant. However, they chose to killswitch her in order to fix all of her bugs in one fell swoop, which was largely successful.
SM got changed to be less horrid to play against. Like I said originally, that's half on BHVR and half on SM players. Yes, she never should have launched in the state she did, even after PTB feedback. However, even after her first few changes, people still continued to abuse and exploit her kit to make other people as miserable as possible.
She's (hopefully) going to get what she actually needs. A complete ground-up re-design.
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@HamsterEnjoyer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3855512#Comment_3855512
The difference is one was a meme to hate on and only got nerfed because people said it was bad and never bothered to learn it.
The other one people didn't even know existed because it was on a killer who was already bad.
Sorry but Im not gonna give any leeway to 'nerf so badly no one touches it then go back and fix it when we feel like it' mindset. This game is already leaning further and further into profit > players and I'd rather not just let them go further into it.Extremely valid to hate SM. She sucks to play against and a lot of her players make it worse.
Agree about the direction BHVR is going, that's why I stopped playing.
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@deckyr said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3855512#Comment_3855512
smerchant didn't deserve nerfs, people were just too lazy to learn how to play against her. her pickrate was so poor that you never saw her. she wasn't causing any problems and people were complaining just for the sake of complaining - the same people who complain about every killer buff and complain that the game is killer sided. the same people that give up on first hook because a teammate opened a chest or cleansed a totem.
pandering to these crybabies is going to ruin the game. it's already ruining it for anyone who liked playing smerchant.
to put it bluntly, making a bunch of changes with the intention to revisit those changes is a complete waste of developer time. the smerchant nerfs could have been freddy tweaks, but they weren't. someone had to go through and spend time working on smerchant for the purpose of ruining her. the next time they have to change her, they have to waste a bunch of time undoing that.
there's fewer sins greater than wasted dev time. smerchant and houndma's addons are the latest in a long string of examples of dbd developers wasting dev time. they nerf things for the sole purpose of buying time to change them later, and in the meantime, we're just out 1 killer and 1 addon.
there's a killer people have paid for that cannot be played right now to prevent her from winning games, despite the fact noone played her in the first place.
nothing justifies this. there's nothing "deserved" about it. i deserve to play a killer that i own. i do not deserve to feel like any killer i enjoy might get destroyed pending a rework with no defined date.
Now who's being dramatic lol
You can still play her, unlike Nurse when she was getting fixed. She was killswitched.
She was despised, still is and that's half on BHVR and half on her players. It's on BHVR because they managed to design the most unpleasant Killer imaginable and it's on the players because they abused the hell out of it.
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The difference is that one deserved it and one did not.
One had MASSIVE community outcry, the likes of which we have never seen, and the other just released.
Either way, BHVR needs to move faster when changing things.