Prometheus1092
Prometheus1092
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@Yggleif said:
But then when survivors do gens it's "gen rushing" and we're told killers have to tunnel and camp because the gens go too fast. So if doing gens results in tunneling and camping and not doing gens results in tunneling and camping it just seems like killers will tunnel and camp no matter what.
That maybe the case, but in my games, I generally don't come across gen rushing all that much. If I did then I know I would certainly feel pressured to chase people off the gens instead of camping knowing fully well no gens are being done. Personally I would find it more fun that way but like I said my experience, looping seems to be the way people go so I go prepared to counter the loops. Pyramid head is my killer of choice for that. Or Myers infinite tombstone. Awful early game but with the loopers I come across they pretty much give me T3 on a plate. Then it's the ones doing the gens that I sneak up on and instakill and leave the loopers for last.
I think if people tried to lose line of sight and equipped perks to hide scratch marks and be stealthy then it would make tunneling harder. I can't tunnel what I can't find. And regards to Myers I can't get T3 if I don't have line of sight.
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@Valuetown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3764185#Comment_3764185
Tiles have been getting worse and maps are getting smaller. Pallets are becoming weaker and windows are becoming nonexistent. Just because a map has 2 god pallets the killer has to stop and break doesn't mean it's OP when the rest of the map is unusable.
The issue with your statement is a survivor cannot tell if a killer is going to be a tunneler or not. By your logic, every survivor should run 4 second chance perks every game since they can't tell whether or not they're going to be tunneled. Why have 100+ perks if only 6 are going to be used? The killer is allowed to swap to Franklin's if they see a lobby with 4 toolboxes. The killer is allowed to swap to Lightborn if they see 4 flashlights. The killer can dodge a potential losing game for them if they don't like how the lobby looks in pregame. You cannot tell me with a straight face that that is fair lol.
Killers use the 4 man SWF scapegoat as if every match they play is against 4 comp players. Just because the survivors have 4 people and the killer has 1 does not mean that on average the relative power each survivor player combined has over the outcome of the match is anywhere near comparable with the killer player's total power and sway over the match.
True the lobby screen is a bit informative for a killer but killers don't get to see if they are going against a group of swf so killer doesn't know how well the communication or team play is going to be so survivors do have that going for them I suppose and a killer doesn't know if the survivors are going to loop until the match starts so doesn't know if anti loop killer is needed or not.
I'm not saying things should be equal, I don't think they should. Survivors were always ment to be the underdogs, fighting to survive and escape. The whole concept of running circles around a pallet is a joke. It's a horror game that has become a rip off scooby doo sketch with a killer chasing a survivor in circles. Survivors have the choice to play stealth, lose line of sight, hide scratch marks, bust out gens reasonably fast. But they usually decide to loop so I go into matches prepared for it. Annoying really because it means most killers are pretty much redundant just like most perks for survivors.
I have played too many matches where survivors loop and even deliberately try to get my attention so others can do gens. That's why I pretty much tunnel most of the time. It's a means to counter the survivor meta of looping. If people were more stealthy, lost line of sight I wouldn't tunnel.
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@Valuetown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3764176#Comment_3764176
You can feel that way, but the reality is it's not true. The fact a blight main could achieve a 1900+ win streak and was only stopped because comp players were stream-sniping them and running the most OP builds shows just how near impossible it is for survivors to win against a killer who abuses the snowball nature of the killer role and knows what they're doing. The fact is that most killers can tunnel without running any perks, but a survivor MUST make their whole build around not getting tunneled is such a ridiculous double standard.
To be fair a survivor can loop without perks or items. It's the same thing. It's a tactic that can be used. If a killer wants to counter the loops then they are forced to go anti loop killers. If a survivor wants to counter a tunneler then they should use perks.
You make it sound like it should be 50 50 but fact is it's a 4 v 1 game so the numbers are already in the survivors favour.
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@Valuetown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/420986/about-the-gen-bug
While it would be a nice way to dissuade killers from tunneling and getting a survivor out as fast as possible (this has been the best strategy to win since the birth of the game), it's addressing a symptom of the problem and not the problem itself. The problem is it is way too easy for the game to turn in the killer's favor, and once that happens, there is almost nothing the survivors can do to turn the game around at that point.
There needs to be more catchup mechanics for survivors. Killers are able to do simple non-perk and non-ability related plays that simply provide too much pressure for them. Want to get a free health state? Walk back to the hook after 10-20 seconds of leaving because another survivor has already begun to rotate to get the unhook. Want to generate free pressure? Start tunneling a survivor and slug them. At least 2 survivors will come and make an altruistic play to try and save their teammate. This gen bug is the closest thing we will ever get to a decent catchup mechanic.
Killer apologists will tell you that "oh well you just don't like the game so you shouldn't be playing," but that really isn't it. There is a focus to hold every killer's hand like we're walking them to preschool. "We've got to make sure that the killer gets at least two kills per game or they might stop playing killer!!!!!!!!!!!!!" Honestly at this point, anyone can auto-pilot their way to at least a 3k on killer if they have minimum game sense and a functioning frontal lobe. All people are asking for is a fair chance to win the game. A survivor shouldn't be placed into a match as fodder for the killer player's fun because a bogus and ambiguous spreadsheet told the people making balance decisions that 60% kill rate felt "just right."
tl;dr: The issue is killers can easily turn the game into their favor using very easily executable strategies, and it is almost impossible for most survivor teams to recover, regardless of skill level. The solution would be to reduce this to a significant degree where good players on both sides can make conscious plays that would affect the overall state of the match.
I have played survivor main for 2 years, then switched to killer main. I'd say killers winning too easy is a skill issue on the survivor part. I have played many games, survivor and killer survivors used the correct perks and set up to counter the killers tunneling or camping and the survivors have won. It's only easy to win if the opposition goes into the match I'll prepared. Like if a killer goes into a match as an anti looper, then it's probably not a wise idea to try looping him.
Survivors need to be equipped with the right perks. Perks which the Devs have included in the game for this purpose
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@Rumplestiltskin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/420986/about-the-gen-bug
It would be a poor design and as others have pointed out, would lead to a rapid drop in Killer players. There are plenty of tools in the game already for the Survivors, as a team, to make use of in regards to tunneling. Most of these tools weren't around for years and teams managed to get by. What I have noticed is that every time they add another base kit or perk option against tunneling, Survivors become more and more self-oriented. They don't go out of their way to take chases, hits, or play much as a team. It seems as if most Survivors today feel that the Killer should be chained to a tree so they can run around it taunting. How is it Survivors got by without all this help before? Why is it no matter how many things they add, Survivors just demand MORE? For the record, I play both Killer and Survivor. I've been around since year three of the game. I don't have many posts here because I came to find out about the Generator Bug and created an account to comment on it. Survivors already have MORE THAN ENOUGH to deal with the things Killers throw at them. At this rate, Behavior better get cracking on improving those Bot Killers because something will eventually give.
Pretty much what I been saying. Many survivors seem to just want to loop the killer and taunt. When they do try doing that the whole match and get caught they complain about being tunneled. Killers are not allowed to tunnel, camp, slug... They are expected to mindlessly take the bait of the looper trying to distract the killer or play the game how the survivors see fit. Heaven forbid the killer uses a tactic the survivors don't like lol.
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@kosaba11 said:
I'll be honest, it's never worked, and it never will work. The reason? The devs don't care - they encourage the bad behavior, they want it to happen. Why do you think they haven't done anything worthwhile to counter camping, slugging or tunneling?
If they actually cared, they'd either make those actions against TOS, or add in features that actually counter those behaviors. But they haven't, and they won't. They'll do the bare minimum, whether it works or not, and expect players to be happy.
They haven't done much to counter tunneling, camping and slugging because they are legitimate tactics that enable the killer to use different methods to kill survivors. Like it or not, fun or not it's part of the game, just like looping. They have however introduced counters to these tactics by use of survivor perks. It's your choice if you use them or not. Just like can counter looping by use of certain killers, killers choice to them or not.
So many people claim these are bad tactics, but are they really bad if they work? It's a PvP game, people play different play styles. Without that option to play in different ways the game would die very quickly
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@Yggleif said:
I know what I'm about to ask is probably going to get some strong reactions but on the topic of the gen bug where if one survivor dies and leaves the game the next gen completed counts as 2 gens, would it be crazy if that stayed in the game in some version as an anti-tunnel mechanic?
It hasn't cost me any games as killer personally and as survivor it really only makes a difference in games where one person gets hard tunneled out early on. If they made it where it only did it after one person died it could be a genuinely good mechanic to dissuade tunneling. I thought killer was going to be unplayable with this bug around but it really isn't if you ping pong between two survivors and spread pressure by the time a survivor dies it doesn't really matter if you take a gen away or put another way any game where it matters you were probably going to lose anyway. Because from my experience it only effects killers trying to hard tunnel one person out while running a bunch of gen blocking (deadlock/grim embrace/DMS) perks which isn't any fun to go against anyway.
Probably not going to be a popular thing to say but like others have said, it punishes killers for completing their own objective. Like it or not, fun or not tunneling is part of the game, it's a legit tactic that makes logical sense to win the game. (Get the kills before gens are complete) There are perks available to counter tunneling.
Another unpopular thing... It's like saying, if a survivor loops for too long they add back a generator that needs to be fixed. Like it or not, fun or not looping is part of the game and is a legit tactic that makes logical sense. (Distract killer so others can do gens so all can escape) there are killers designed as anti loopers to counter it. Would be punishing survivors for completing their own objective just like this bug is doing to killers.
Just saying, if this method is applied to killers it has to be applied to survivors too for balance.
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@Saiph said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3763678#Comment_3763678
How do you even picture that thing? You said that people "take turns taking the fall so the rest can auto gens to get the wins", - so that means one guy jumped into his discord today, said "Hey guys there's a bug in DBD, let's go play and one of us will suicide at the beginning of the game, then we can genrush and get out immediately after 2 minutes without interacting with the killer - sounds fun right?"
Idk but if my friends suggested something like this I don't think I would play with them.
Besides, even if you cared just about the escape - which most SWFs don't - the "easy win" involves sacrificing one player of your SWF intentionally, so you're 3vs1, and then you still need to open the gate, which might often end at least in 2K, or even a loss. So not really an auto win.
SWF players will definitely exploit this bug, but making it sound like there are people who exclusively play SWF to be the evil incarnate and get easy wins against poor killer mains, sounds like nonsense. Besides, how would you even know? The game doesn't tell you who is in SWF.
Well my guess is that a group of friends play together and play normally, then when things looking bleak and 1 guy dies they can leave in the tally screen. The assumption that they go in to a match and suicide immediately to get out immediately doesn't make sense but it wouldn't surprise me if they have "fun" for a while first then use the bug if they have to ensure killer doesn't get the win.
If your friends suggested playing dbd to constantly blind the killer and never do gens with the intent to "bully the killer" then maybe you wouldn't want to play with them for that either but still doesn't mean it doesn't happen with certain groups of people. I know first hand that there are groups out there that set out to make the killers game as miserably as possible and they even admit it in post game chat. I'm sure some killers do the same. Like I said ignorance in the matter doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Believe it or not there are people on both sides, killer and survivor that openly and admit to playing the game to make it miserable for the opposition.
Maybe I'm misunderstood, I'm not saying the reason swf would use the bug is to win. I'm saying what I heard happen and saying it's possible due to the toxic players basically have another method to be toxic. A method they can control by activating the bug at will if at least 1 person was killed. You can't seriously say these toxic players don't exist. If people are willing to go through the effort to hack the game and spend considerable amount of time being toxic for a laugh then why isn't is it inconceivable that people could use the bug to accomplish the same goal?
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3763678#Comment_3763678
If "I have heard of this" is an argument than "I have never heard of this before" is an argument as well, lol.
Besides, I thought SWF are OP and win every game anyway?
Well you have heard of it now haven't you so you saying you haven't heard of it wouldn't be a good argument because you just have lol I never said swf are OP and even if they are it doesn't stop certain people from using exploits, or deliberately trying to be toxic for a laugh in the game. Your ignorance of not hearing about this cases doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Just have to Google it, and you get videos or toxic players on both sides regardless of how OP either side is
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3763614#Comment_3763614
I call nonsense on this one. But of course SWF has to be the biggest evil once again.
Any reason why you call nonsense? Or is it just biased views? I'm only saying what I heard happen, not encountered it myself because I refuse to play until the bug is resolved. But it does seem perfectly plausible, definitely something that could be controlled by survivors and based on my experience of the sheer quantity of toxic survivors using bugs and glitches previously.
If your argument for it being nonsense is based on blind support for swf and nothing else then it does invalidate your "nonsense" comment
I would like to point out, I heard this happen from survivors claiming they are doing it...
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I have heard this bug already being exploited. Swf teams of 4 going into matches basically taking it in turns of 1 of them taking the fall so the rest can auto gen to get the wins.
Can't say I'm surprised, almost every bug gets exploited to some degree but like others, I'm surprised a bug of this seriousness still hasn't been fixed.
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@Gmoore23 said:
I genuinely can't tell if this is satire or not. If it isn't, the problem is in the very first sentence and put in little parentheses.
Slugging is the most boring way to possibly play DBD. The survivors don't like it because they can't do anything, and the killers usually don't like it because it's too easy, slow, and overall just a scummy way to play. And on top of that, you chose the slugging royalty that is the Twins (which is unfortunate for them because they're actually fun now).
When you play in a fun way and don't slug everyone, the game is fun. So again, I hope this is satire, because even a moron like me knows that that's common sense.
I agree slugging is pretty boring but TBF when survivors body block hooks and constantly flashlight when picking someone up then the survivors force the hand of the killer to slug. And these same survivors complain about the slugging at the end when they lose. So it's not always possible to just not slug depending on the tactics used by the survivors
Most of the time these "scummy" ways to play or boring ways to play are the result of countering the opposition. That's just the game.
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@joel84 said:
and should be rewarded more. Definitely
Maybe at some point there is a possibility that the winning conditions will be changed, I don't know.
While we're on the subject of winning (MMR I know…. everytime the same bla bla) It's like soccer or field field hockey. No matter how well you play...., even if the worse team wins by one goal more in the end, the game is lost. Fair? Not at all. But it is what it is.
This is how MMR is calculated in Dead by Daylight and why I say this in almost every thread I write. Have fun while playing, because you can't see your hidden number. At most you can think about it for your ego, but you can't buy any of it. If some people want to sweat there, they are welcome to do so. If someone has 1,000 wins, it's no use to them, because thank God there's no official ranking.
I've read a lot of complaints about the speed of generators recently. This begs the question. If the developers want killers to focus more on chases, why are more and more elements being added to the game that affect the speed of generators?
Generator regression is becoming increasingly weak.
(Oh, A little reminder) Waeving Spiders, Specialist and BNP will be fun and scary (I'm looking forward to it)I can't imagine 5 minute games being fun. That's probably one of the main reasons why some players prefer the tunnel play style, I don't know.
Anyway, I'm a player who focuses on chases and hookz. The more hookz I can get, the better, but if the game is over too quickly and then all the survivors escape, it doesn't feel good. Especially if it's a permanent state.
If the developers are focusing on this, why are they doing the exact opposite? That is counterproductive
I want the killers who play fair and hit a lot of hooks to be better rewarded at the end of the game. That's only fair.
What do you think?
Even if the worse team wins by 1 goal in the end? I would say if they won in the end then they are not the worse team, they can't be worse because they won. You can do all the fancy manoeuvre and put on a great performance but it's the end result that matters and that's what should be rewarded.
So many times I have won against so called "good players" and they say "your so bad at the game" it just makes no sense, I'm so bad at the game that I'm beating good players?? I play my way because it's fun and it works. But that makes me a bad player because I don't play by the rules the opposition has made up and win my matches
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@Rxstevo said:
I would rather play against skull merchant than pyramid head. He has a way more boring anti loop. it's basically a free hit if ur at a pallet or vault since if u fake it he can just cancel and get a smack. And if you do vault or drop a pallet ur get hit with the m2. He also the best killer to camp and tunnel. He's just overall a boring killer to face and can basically speed run kills. At Least with skull merchant you can actually use pallets and vaults and anti tunnel perks.
That's exactly why I use him. Perfect way to beat him tho is don't loop. I know this mindset is crazy to many survivors but there is actually more to the game than deliberately trying to get the killer focus on them so others can do gens. It's really not difficult to lose line of sight and get away to a safe location.
I admit I go overkill with my pyramid head purely due to the sheer number of toxic players that I seem to go up against. I use no where to hide and noed every time, tunnel, camp, slug and make damn sure that I take out the loopers. Some might find it boring to go against but that's not surprising given that he stops the 1 thing that many survivors go into a match to do....loop...not do gens or escape but loop...all match. I don't find it fun to go in circles like its some sort of scooby do sketch so no offensive to the people that think pyramid head is boring or my play style is boring... But like you don't care about the killers fun in a game, I honestly don't care about the survivors fun.
If the looping meta and toxic players were gone from the game then I would happily change my play style accordingly but until then my way is fun for me and it works
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@SweetbutaPsycho said:
Like I get that the endgame chat is often used for shittalk or pointing out misplays etc. and I'm mostly fine with that; however I've encountered so many players in the last 2 days that took things way too far.
Had one Ghostfaceplayer that even won thanks to Noed throw an absolute tantrum after the match, basically telling us that he will find us in real life and make sure to murder us and our families while we sleep. Another guy basically said that he wishes my entire family dies a horrible death of cancer and illnesses and that they suffer while I watch. In the end DBD is still a videogame and saying stuff like that just takes it way way too far. You can write EZ or complain about gameplay and balance idc.
Also I have the feeling like the reporting system is way too lenient on these things. I know people from before my long DBD break and also said horrible things on like a regular basis and got probably reported for that very often but they still play DBD almost daily.
My thoughts are, can't change how other people act or what they say but I can change my reaction. 🤷♂️ I just don't let myself get offended by it, I take great delight in knowing I clearly annoyed these nut jobs enough for them to go on rant... I sit back and watch them explode lol
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3757993#Comment_3757993
Are you of the impression there are only 2 survivors in a trial? That's the only way your comment would make sense. Also, do you think it's wise gameplay to just leave survivors on gens untouched and not disrupt them?
Not at all lol by elimination if there are 2 very good loopers (which is common as the loopers back eachother up with flashlight) and 2 doing gens on opposite sides of the map then what I said does make sense... wouldn't make sense to go from one end of the map to the other to chase the other survivor when there is one right in front of me.... When that survivor is eliminated there is only 1 gen worker left because it's almost a certainty that the 2 loopers will continue to try bait the killer.
Sometimes it is wise gameplay to leave the ones on the gens if the intent is to get 3 gens left close to eachother (another perfectly valid tactic) has worked for me many many times. Sacrifice a couple gens to be in a better position to protect the rest
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3757745#Comment_3757745
Or you could just not take the bait and not chase the strong looper around the strong tile. There is a meta strategy to the game as well. If you let yourself get goaded into chases that aren't wise to take and around strong tiles then that's on you.
So you agree that the solution would be ignore the looper and concentrate on the weaker ones... That would be called tunneling, deliberately ignoring other survivors to take down a particular survivor. Doesn't matter what way you look at it, survivors loop killers tunnel.
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@TheSubstitute said:
The 60% kill rate is what the developers intend. I think the kill rate has to favour Killers a bit because there are multiple survivors who drop out and then sometimes the remaining 3 survivors get a 3E. There are 4K games as well where, if the survivor who left had stayed, there would have been at least some escapes. If the developers didn't take that into account then it would lead to a situation where the game had better odds for the Survivors than the Killer if all players stuck around (of which sticking around is more commonly the case as MMR rises). I'm fine with that as DbD is a horror game. 60% might be a bit too much for some so maybe 55% would suit them better and get the same effect. I don't know myself and I'm fine with 60% when the game is played as intended.
Honestly though I think a lot of this would disappear if tunnelling was just properly nerfed and spreading hooks properly incentivized. I don't care about losing and a closely fought lost game, in my opinion, is far more fun than a roflstomp. What isn't fun is not being able to play the game as intended which is what happens to the survivor who is tunneled. If tunneling were removed I think a lot of the intensity of complaints about kill rates would diminish as the enjoyability of play would increase (not disappear but come on its the Internet; complaining about something will never disappear entirely on the Internet).
what do you propose a killer should do if a survivor is deliberately trying to get the killer to chase them because they are the strong looper on the team? It's a common tactic that 1 or 2 people loop the killer as long as possible while the others do gens in peace. I see 2 options, follow through and try take that person out (tunnel) or if they are just too good at looping, ignore that looper and go for the weaker members of the team. But in doing that a killer is ignoring other looping survivors to concentrate on the weaker one...(Tunnel)
I'm curious how the game was intended to be played tbh because it's generally unacceptable to tunnel which is essentially keeping chase and killing the survivor as fast as possible before gens get completed. But it's acceptable to loop around a tile endlessly and goad the killer into a chase
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@sinkra said:
'll just drop the science right away so you get the idea. Killer is obviously overpowered. Overall, survivors only survive 40-43 percent, and killers kill 57-60 percent. Of course this is bad game balance that should be fixed, but the problem is much, much worse than the stats show. Let me explain...
The devs have admitted on numerous occasions that the DC matches are excluded from the kill-rate statistics. This is actually very misleading advertising strategy which artificially inflates survival rates heavily.
Survivors DC on a frequent basis, so this will have a huge impact on survival rates. But why do they DC? Survivors primarily DC because they will most likely lose the match, because the killer is winning, because killer is so overpowered. Most players, including survivors, will finish a match if there is a good chance of winning. This is just human nature.
This is also the same reason most survivors will suicide on hook - they do so when the probability of winning is slim. So most suicides on hook would be legitimate losses for the survivor team regardless, and do not actually inflate kill rate statistics. The amount of suicide-on-hook matches that would end in survivor's favor is very, very small. Since losing 1 survivor creates a snowball effect, most of the matches where that 1 survivor has slim chance of escaping, are also matches where the entire team would have a bad outcome, and the killer would "win" with a 3-4k.
Only a tiny minority of survivor DC's and suicide-on-hooks happen when the survivor/survivors actually has/have a good chance of winning the match. Why? Because most players want to finish games they believe they can win and won't DC or suicide-on-hook.
So what this means is that the game devs are leaving out a massive number of legitimate survivor losses from the statistics, which is actually inflating survival rates dramatically and deflating kill rates immensely. This means kill rates are actually much higher than the public stats above indicate. Of course the devs don't want you to figure this out, because it would spark outrage and protests from the survivor main player base. Of course, I see right through their ploy.
Public stats have kill rates at about 60 against solo Q. But if we adjust for the excluded DC's it is almost certainly closer to a 70-80 percent kill rate. This means killers are massively overpowered. It is already common knowledge at this point that DBD is killer-sided, but it is important to realize that it is far more killer-sided than the devs and killer mains have the courage to admit.
Why won't they admit it? Well, killer mains want to win, so they very naturally welcome balance changes in their favor. They also want to feel good about winning, so they will post hoc rationalize that their win is not because killer role is OP, but because they are just so good at DBD and the survivor mains are just so bad. This is called motivated reasoning, which prevents most killer mains from objectively assessing the actual fairness of the gameplay since it favors their preferred role. This is of course not their fault, it is just human nature.
But the far more interesting question is, why are the game developers hiding the real survival rates, that are far lower than the 40-43 percent above, and closer to a measly 20-30 percent? The answer is very simple: money. Dead by Daylight is first and foremost a business, and the developers have already shown they are willing to implement a pay-to-win model by locking so many essential meta perks behind a pay wall. Of course, for good PR they will give you the opportunity to grind your way to these perks just so they can technically claim it isn't pay-to-win, but they know damn well the average player doesn't have time for this. So the incentive to simply pay up for the competitive advantage in a game with skill-based matchmaking is enormous. You see, it is all part of their carefully crafted marketing scheme orchestrated by top executives.
Now, the game being so heavily killer-sided makes perfect sense. It is the killer mains that make the devs the most money. Why? Because killer DLC is far more appealing and interesting than survivor DLC. If you buy survivor DLC, all you get is a boring cosmetic change and unlock a few unique perks that you either don't care for or can grind for if a perk is really good. But if you buy killer DLC, you get this overpowered bad-ass new monster with unique abilities that make the actual gameplay itself fresh and interesting again, while allowing you to win more without needing much skill at all. This is basically a pay-to-win model, with some very shady and dishonest advertising PR to pretend that it is not.
So how do we fix this problem? Unfortunately it cannot be fixed. As a business, the devs primary motivation will always be money. They have to make a living after all, so they can eat at fancy restaurants, go on fancy vacations, and get intoxicated at fun parties while poor survivors are suffering miserably in solo Q. The killers' primary motivation will always be winning and so the devs will always give killer mains a ridiculously unfair advantage to keep them fat and satisfied and buying more DLC for more easy wins. It's a vicious cycle that goes on endlessly until the game itself is dead. I'd love to end this on a positive note but this is a horror game after all. So this story does not have a happy ending, well, not unless you're a killer main or a DBD dev of course.
I have been a survivor main for years and now I'm killer main so I have experienced both sides, and even when I was survivor I was in support of killers should be OP. It's a horror game where naturally the killer is the one to be feared and holds the power. Survivors are the underdogs so this "balance" nonsense doesn't make sense. Why not give survivors the means to fight and hook the killer if you want balance? Make it so the killer and survivors are exactly the same and make it 4 v 4? It's a 4 v 1 game, there is your balance... Survivors have numbers on their side, team work. Killers don't. If I'm a survivor I don't want to be on par with the killer, I want to struggle against all odds to survive and escape. It's already become a case that killers are pretty much scared of pallets because they know it's going to be a futile merry go round until eventually forced to smash it (only when the survivor has been looped enough and bloodlust is up which forces them to drop the thing) it's crazy how many people want survivors on par with killers. Think they should play an FPS game where the average Joe can use a gun and shoot the enemy.
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Have to say best time for me was shortly after DBD was released. Reasons being as others have said it was actually scary, new, no one knew the maps or exploits so everyone was on even footing. killers were lethal and survivors hadn't caught on to the fact that all you need to do is loop so playing as a survivor and killer was fun.
I used to be survivor main, it was scary, intense. I had a reason to be scared of the killer. Trying to get the gens done then heart beat starts thumping away. Good old days before it became 1 big loopathon
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@Chiky said:
The gameplay overall needs a HUGE change, both for killer and survivor. I'm main killer, and I've been playing a bit more survivor lately, but the game is getting again too boring to the point that not even switching role makes me want to play more than 2-3 matches a day.
As killer, I only play friendly killer. 2 hooks on each and you're free to go. Even then, I feel the necessity of having extra objectives as killer to do. If i played normally, having as only objective to kill the survivors leads me to only be after them, no matter who, until they die. That's why people tunnel, slug, and camp. Kicking gens is an absolute joke, just as waste of time. So, what would a killer do if not following survivors in boring loops and killing them? There's no incentive for anything else.
As survivor, doing gens is the most boring thing ever. Just sitting there for a few seconds with 2 skill checks at most and you're done... Unhooking others is the fun part in my opinion, and even chases (even if i suck at that) are entertaining a bit. When on hook, it's also boring as #########, especially if your teammates suck. But since the main objective is repairing the gens, the main gameplay is boring as hell. And since the only objective of killers is to get kills, i often get tunneled, camped, or slugged.
The entirety if the gameplay needs a rework basically from scratch.
I think it's your play style that makes it boring. For example you say kicking gens is a joke and a waste of time... I use nowhere to hide to see hidden survivors near the gen or what direction they ran to. Handy if your Myers, can see them hiding then just insta kill them. There are other perks that makes kicking gens worthwhile too. I do agree that it's boring going in circles chasing a looper but that's due to survivors ignoring the other objectives in the game that gives points.
From a survivor point of view, doing gens, doing totems, evading the killer gives points. if your only thinking "do gens, escape" then yes it can be boring. You also admit to not playing the game as intended by getting 2 hooks then letting them go, I would be bored doing that and playing against a killer like that because that's not what a match should be. Maybe instead of thinking of the goal being "kill survivors" or "escape as survivor" you could look at the points as a goal, try get as many points as possible by changing your play style? Or play a game better suited to you?
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There is definitely a survivor issue, it's called a skill issue. Vast majority of survivors loop and that's the problem. Instead of working on gens, doing totems they spend whole game trying to loop the killer and wonder why they can't win a game. Pretty much every game survivors loop me they end up dead one way or another. But the ones that use tactics, come prepared with perks to be able to lose line of sight end up beating me. It's this strange view that "looping is the point to the game" and "there isn't anything else a survivor can do" no that's bs, there are plenty of things people can do but they refuse to budge from the looping mindset and end up losing because of it. The in game advice even says to lose line of sight. No where in the game does it say "advice for survivors, goad a killer into chasing you around a pallet"
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3755784#Comment_3755784
Unfortunately survivors don't seem to want that sort of gameThat's the relevant part. It doesn't matter if something conceptually is fun, if a significant portion of the player base doesn't want to engage with one side, you don't have a viable mode.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3755851#Comment_3755851
TCM has 3 killers and they have openly said they wanted it to be slightly killer sided. They seem to be doing just fine that way.It's managed to survive, but they aren't exactly thriving.
That's why I'm hoping the 2 killers mode will get rid of the loopfest and make the games fun againWithout looping there's very little for survivors to do. Whether killers should be stronger or not is a different question, if they can put an individual survivor into an impossible situation, even if the overall game is still balanced, people aren't going to enjoy it.
If I'm running a jungle gym and I'm being chased by the killer, that can be scary and exciting. If I'm running a jungle gym and one killer just blocks the window while the other killer chases me, that's not exciting, that's boring.
I would say TCM is thriving considering the limited amount of time it's been released. DBD has had many years to work out the bugs, iron things out and add additional content. Give it time and TCM could be on par with DBD.
I agree, running the jungle gym is fun but people don't do that, they look for loops and go in circles around 1 tile. Thats what I would like to see gone in the 2 killer mode. There is a lot for survivors to do, gens, totems, hide, lose line of sight. But the go to response is always loop and disregard anything else
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@I_CAME said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3755784#Comment_3755784
I hate this logic. I've never seen another PVP game where people go through such mental gymnastics to justify it not being balanced. If you want to know how unbalanced game modes are received then look at lights out. It was massively killer sided and the devs admitted no one played it after the first few days. This game mode will end up exactly the same way after the novelty factor wears off if they don't take steps to make it fair for both sides.
There is a big difference between being slightly in favour of the killer (as it should be because he's a killer) than being massively killer sided. TCM has 3 killers and they have openly said they wanted it to be slightly killer sided. They seem to be doing just fine that way. The problem is that many DBD survivors seem hugely self entitled and want to be on par with the killer. Each to their own but when a killer gets looped whole match it's not fun for the killer. The whole concept has become a joke, can't imagine people running around Myers in the movies. Playing a game these days has definitely become a joke. The centre around looping has caused the killers that are not anti loopers to be redundant, no one used them. That's why I'm hoping the 2 killers mode will get rid of the loopfest and make the games fun again
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@Toystory3Monkey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3755770#Comment_3755770
2v8 would be way more macro / resource oriented and it's very likely it would also not be balanced in that regard.
i honestly struggle to see how it would be fun
I don't think it should be balanced, I'm a game like this it should be harder for survivors to escape than it is for a killer to get kills. That's what adds the fear element to survivors.i feel it takes something away from the game when survivors are on par with the killer due to being balanced, literally no fear in circling them and toying with them. Unfortunately survivors don't seem to want that sort of game where its a risk to goad the killer into chasing them, the ones that do end up playing TCM
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@tippy2k2 said:
We should probably wait for it to come out before we declare anything.
I can't say for sure cause…you know…it's not out yet but I feel like 2v8 is gonna go the way of "My Lil Oni". It'll be super cool and everyone will freak out over how awesome it is and it'll fizzle out really quick. It'll probably survive a little bit longer than Oni but I give it maybe a week before people wander back to the normal mode.
Cause a few things you need to keep in mind. You can't use every killer in the mode. I don't know if BHVR has confirmed for sure who is going to be playable but the articles I read said only five killers (Trapper, Wraith, Huntress, Hillbilly, and Nurse) will be available in the mode. Second, while the mode sounds like it would be great for killers, I'm not sure survivors are going to be on board with two killers. Tunneling and camping are major issues as it is, now imagine you have two killers that can tag team you. The mode isn't going to do anything if you can't get the survivor player base on board as well…
I kinda agree with the point of survivors. They already say "looping is the only thing we can do" and claim it's the only skillful aspect of the game for them. 2 killers should make it tougher for a survivor to single handedly loop the whole match. I don't see survivors being on board with it tbh. From a killer perspective tho, I do look forward to seeing how they go about it. Hopefully a whole new style of play
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@100PercentBPMain said:
I'm the rare breed of Myers enjoyers who only plays double iri Myers lol
Needless to day, Myers is one of my higher prestige killers out of necessity, not because I like him.
I do exactly the same thing, always keep 1 of each iri in inventory then role the web to get black hand. Better than using the last tombstone and spending ages waiting for another to pop up
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I play Myers pretty regularly and I ALWAYS use insta kill and infinite T3. 90% of the time I get 4k. I find it fun, especially when mouthy survivors complain about it being boring and requiring no skill lol. They really hate that tombstone, but I think that's how it should be, a killer to strike fear into the survivors. Makes it more fun imo going against Myers knowing there is a real threat. Not like other killers when people just don't care and have no fear of looping them. Not a good idea to try looping him although many do try (and fail)
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3754104#Comment_3754104
Okay, but you've got to actually demonstrate that to be wrong for it to be an unfair double standard.
Broadly, though, it's true. Can you give any examples of problematic survivor behaviour in this vein, that doesn't require specific tools, that would require some kind of nerf?
Killers can tunnel and camp without any tools. Slugging too, but slugging isn't a problem in that vein. In order for that to be an unfair statement to make, you'd need to demonstrate that survivors have some kind of equivalent problem that doesn't require specific tools.
Looping... Requires no tools or perks. Never knew how easy it was to circle a killer and eventually move to next pallet and repeat until I tried it myself
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3754043#Comment_3754043
How would you even hook the last Survivor twice, doesn't make sense.
Just because you're ashamed of tunneling doesn't mean my definition isn't valid.
Not my job to convince you though.
TBF I have hooked last survivor then went to close the hatch before the survivor died, they then jumped off the hook and escaped. My fault for not camping lol could have had 4k
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@fussy said:
– Please killer, tunnel me, killer, I dare you. I will do everything to get your attention.
later
– Why are you tunneling huh?
I mean, if you can't 1+1, maybe learn some math before playing games?Exactly what I been saying for years, survivors say they love the chase and looping is the only skillful and fun aspect of the game for them. But complain when the loops fail and they get caught. I think it's a universal thing that survivors are supposed to loop because it's part of the game "what am I supposed to do, let you kill me?" Is what I usually hear. Well in that same respect from a killer view, "what am I supposed to, let you run free when I can see your injured and weaker than the rest?" :) killers kill, they don't say "sorry already hooked you, not allowed to chase you again"
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I agree, tunneling is skill issue on the survivor side. Survivors love to be tunneled when they try looping the killer the whole match while others sit on gens. But when they fail they cry about being tunneled. Maybe don't twirl around in a circle, flashing a light around trying to get the killers attention? I see it so many times "come and get me" then try make a mockery of the killer by literally running circles around them. But when they are caught they expect the killer to repeat the same thing for a different survivor which enables them to win. Nope, sorry but I play my way not how survivors tell me I should play. If you try loop me, your being tunneled and taken out of the game asap
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Im openly a tunneler, and admit to tunneling in majority of games I play. perfectly legit tactic that works most of the time. I find it interesting that the people who complain about tunneling are the same ones that deliberately try to get the killer to chase them while the rest of the team works on gens. They claim to love the chase and looping is the only skill aspect of the game but then complain about being tunneled when they fail at looping. There is nothing wrong with tunnelling, have to have some skill to out manoeuvre the looper. My advice to anyone that complains about tunneling is 1. Hide better, can't be tunneled if you can't be found. 2. Get better at either looping or lose line of sight. (There are many perks that aid in both of these) Or 3. Go the same character as someone else. Very easy to confuse the killer when there are 4 of the same survivor running around.
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It does sound like a salty survivor complaint TBF, complaining about tunneling.. yet you guys like the chase and like looping. Enjoy the chase then and don't get caught
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@VASRIO said:
The game is at the sweatiest state it has ever been.
Literally every killer tunnels. Every single one.
Because guess what - it works, by design.
And the only thing survivors can do to prevent is, it to run two perks, aka dedicate half their build only to prevent something which shouldn't be in the game to begin with.
Off The Record and DS.
Here's the problem though.
- The survivor is completely useless whilst those perks are active, if he wants to keep them. In other words, you and your entire team are getting punished, if you were to prevent yourself being tunneled.
- They don't even do much. Off the Record can be disabled 1 second after being unhooked if the killer directly hits you fresh off the hook. And DS can simply be waited out.
"B-but that's the point, the killer wastes time tunneling, so its worth it!" - And if that time waste actually contributed to something, killers wouldn't tunnel consistently, and win by doing so. Because guess what, removing someone from the game is worth it, even if you lose a few gens in the process.
Better yet, trading is easier than ever, and by proxying the hook from 16 meters, killers can immediately get a free down on the unhooker and go straight to tunneling the one unhooked.
During that time, half of the survivor team is doing absolutely nothing.
And here comes the worst part: In soloQ, people don't even punish killers for tunneling, because nobody even sits on gens. And there's zero communication in this game.
This game is literally made for SWF's only. It's a nightmare to play an soloQ survivor. As for killer, if you were to win, you have to follow toxic, unfun playstyles, because it's simply how this game works by design, going for 12 hooks as a killer is NONSENSE.
Nah, don't give me the "b-but if you're good you can make it" - Nobody is trying to make it by getting 12 hooks, because its shooting yourself in the foot as a killer.
This game is flawed by design.
If you ask me, killers need to receive punishments for choosing to tunnel. If you hook the same survivor twice in a row, the requires charges to finish all generators get reduced by 5%, stacking up to 5 times or 25%.
There you have it, now that's an incentive not to tunnel and actually punishing the tunneling playstyle.
The counterbalance for killers? Each time you hook a different survivor after hooking another one, get passive buffs for 60 seconds. Haste, faster vault, stronger base gen kick regression, you name it.
Make it so healthy playstyles are rewarded and there's an incentive to play fair. Now, there's literally none.
And all the tunneling changes done in recent years have been shite.
Buffing a perk locked behind a monetized character by 1 second ain't gonna fix the tunneling issue in the game. What a joke.
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Survivors don't NEED to loop, many can use stealth to win, many use good team work and communication to win. I have played games and lost to survivors using different tactics to looping and they were fun. You say camping and slugging are not intended ways to win but the in-game advice for survivors is lose line of sight which there are perks that aid in this. The use of ott looping does mean sometimes killers NEED to use controversial tactics like camping to counter it. Fair enough if people think looping is fun but to say they NEED to do it to win is just flat out wrong. Lots have tried looping me with Myers but they end up giving me T3 due to line of sight then it's game over I get 4k. They NEEDED to stop looping and use a different tactic like use lockers to win.
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@Laluzi said:
Killers complain about survivors all the time. Medkits, toolboxes, sabotage, map offerings, perks, bodyblocking, taunting. Looping, which you are arguing right now. This is hardly some survivor sin that killers nobly bear the cross of.
People don't like losing and get angry about things other people did to prevent them from winning. Sometimes they have a point, and there are game mechanics that need address. Usually they don't. They whine and make false reports all the time, and those reports get discarded because they're baseless and not actually against the rules and nobody has to care.
I highly disagree that looping is boring. I mean, running perfect laps around tiles is boring as hell, but mindgames in chase and finding ways to cut off that loop are the most exciting part of this game. The survivor alternative to wasting the killer's time via chase is immersing and trust me, you don't want that.
Each to their own but I personally find looping boring regardless if I win or lose. It makes the game repetitive knowing exactly what I survivor is going to do from a killer perspective. From a survivor view, I have more fun doing gens, sneaking around the map, hiding and trying to unhook people. Feels like a true horror game on a gen hearing the killer getting closer. Intense. Goading the killer into chasing me removes that fun element for me. Like I said each to their own and it seems I'm in the minority but I think there should be more to the game than playing merry go round. On top of that, looping encourages people to go anti loop killers (executioner for me but there a few others) makes the rest of the killers kinda redundant because they are useless at loops. If survivors used different tactics more it would mix up the killer roster more. Make games exciting again
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Killers tunnel because survivors loop, legit tactic yes but when a killer is chasing in a circle they have to either commit and get them out asap or abandon and hope the others are not as good at looping... But that results in killer tunneling someone else because they can't catch the pro looper. What are killers supposed to do spend all match going in circles? No, they look for the kills any way they can. People say looping is part of the game, well so is tunneling, camping and slugging. Might not be fun for survivors but it's not fun for a killer to be looped whole match