NuclearBurrito2
NuclearBurrito2
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- NuclearBurrito2
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Honestly I wouldn't give the killer an out of chase MS increase, it's too abusable IE moonwalking
I'd remove it and make the injured obsession MS buff 2% bigger
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@Mister_xD said:
note to self:
if you see a survivor there and there is no hook, watch them bleed to death while continuously nodding at them.
also congratulate them in the end chat for being so extremely smart
thanks ^^InB4 someone running no mither camps there
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I support the icon addition btw
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Ok so what if:
Hex totems always spawn attached to the closes dull totem to the killer, the killer can interact with the totem while he is standing next to it to pick it up and can place it in a dull totem later
ToTH's notification becomes base and that perk gets reworked in other ways (such as making dull totems appear as hex totems or something)
Hex: Haunted grounds would ignore the spawning changes and would have a different aura color to other Hex's
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Not saying that NOED in particular is fine. But in general perks that give you a boost when you are losing are not problematic, however that is only true so long as the boost is less than the snowball from the fact that you are losing (or in otherwords you should never be MORE likely to win now that the survivors have made additional progress). Those gens should always hurt you more than they help you, but that does not mean they can't help you, hence end game builds.
like, a survivor is very likely to escape once the gate is powered, not as likely if the killer has NOED, but even in that case they are still more likely to escape compared to when the gate isn't powered.
DS is problematic because you are more likely to survive a chase after using it compared to when you were initially injured or downed
Or in otherwords a perk can turn a point of failure into a point of lesser failure and still be fair. However it is not fair for a perk to turn a point of failure into a point of success.
Keep in mind that even without NOED it is possible for the killer to win after the gates are powered. Thus having a boost that makes it possible to win is still a point of failure as the gates being powered still makes it highly possible to lose compared to before then.
(I consider blood warden and remember me to both be stronger than NOED in this context since they are more effective at letting you win the game after the gates are powered)
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I've usually have little trouble dealing with legion in a chase. Or more specifically I find his frenzy to be surprisingly easy to avoid in a chase, especially when it doesn't have full power.
For example I was playing against a pretty good legion, not rank 1 or anything but he was rank 10 immediately after the reset and had a good loadout. And he had already gotten 3k with 2 gens to spare. Anyways I was able to survive him chasing me by using a vault in the shack to bait frenzy and stunned him with a pallet to remove it. Then I only needed a few second lead so that he couldn't hit me with frenzy without waiting long enough to get to another save zone at which point I could stun him again when he tried.
Yes he eventually got deep wound on me but I was able to find the hatch before it mattered. I almost was even able to break chase entirely and definitely would have been able to do that if I had quick and quiet
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Counterargument: No u
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For other kinds of objectives I'd want added see this link: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/46668/additional-objectives-brainstorm
Basically in my ideal gameplay loop you would:
1: Get parts (using your system or otherwise)
2: Install those parts into generators (which could actually be SHORTER than now)
3: Do at least 2-3ish generators (exact number can be decided and then balanced around)
4: Either A: Continue doing generators until you have done at least 5 B: Find and open the hatch (which would lead into a new area I'm going to call the tunnels instead of an instant escape) or C: Start doing a map specific objective
5A: Obtain a power cell from the basement. Alternatively complete all 7 generators in the case that the basement is being camped. Doing all 7 generators is a failsafe and not what you actually want to end up doing preferably. The parts system combined with the map specific means camping the killer shack if a generator and the basement both spawn there is not a viable option for the killer
5B: Obtain 3 power cells from the basement
5C: Depends on the map. Feel free to help me brainstorm specifics here
6A: Install the power cell into the gate and then open it like normal. If all generators are repaired then no power cell is needed
6B: Install each power cell into a handle like the one next to the gate. All 3 must be powered (which mechanically works like the gate) for a door in the tunnels to open. The tunnel door can be used to escape. 1 less power handle thing is needed to escape per dead survivor, with 3 dead survivors the door will open with no charges needed so the final person can use the hatch like they do now
6C: Escape somehow. Again map dependantRoute A should require a minimum of 440 charges (up from 420)
Route B should require a minimum of 410 charges and 40 less per dead person but is extremely risky (see link above for details)
Route C should require a minimum of 500 charges but should be the hardest for the killer to defend due to lack of interaction with perks and no direct regression methodAdditionally there should only be 1 gate. But since there are 2 other escape routes that means the killer still can't just camp the gate
Powering all gens to open the gate would take 580 charges and is not what you would want to do
The exact numbers can be altered in various ways.
remember that 1 charge = 1 second without modifiers. We use charges instead of seconds because modifiers exist
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@NuclearBurrito2 said:
Anyways, this arfleblarg has it's pros and cons:Glad that at least 1 has started to see the obvious
The good:
- It indeed makes doing gens with 1-2 people more reasonable
- Adds more options into what you can do at any given moment
The bad:
- Doesn't do anything to help gen rushes
- Objectively buffs survivors with no other changes made
Potential improvement:
- Make at least 1 required to repair generators. However make generators require 15 less charges. Make any number changes necessary so the timing numbers remain the same (meaning that a generator should still take at least 80 seconds total to finish without anything nerfing your progress) This helps stop gen rushes as building a part is harder to modify the timing of and only a max of 3 people can make a part at once (2 if you don't want to go to the basement) while an uncoordinated team is less likely to need all 3 at the same time
I'll try to come up with other ideas. While I do think the game needs to last longer I have other idea's for that. If I do it right then it should be possible to reduce the amount of time spent on a generator further while allowing for more interesting decision making. Having some kind of part system is important to having something like that work however
As for your comment;
I have a post about Death-Efficiency, which is simply about the disproportional drop in total generator efficiency of survivors upon the death of 1 survivor. (You'd expect to lose 25% per death but it's worse)I suggest that there's a problem with both gen-rushing and a low survivor count. What happens is that if you prolongue generator times WITHOUT making lower survivor count gameplay possible, then you cannot address the issue and normalise the experience.
Simply nerfing generator time is the worst thing you can do; Nerfing generator time and making the game more survivable for lower-survivor counts is THE solution to one of the core issues of the game.
I explain how regression is key to making the late-game unplayable. That is why the Part route is basically the elimination of that regression element, without unnaturally altering regression.So if the late-game is playable (with the Part system we can make it as playable as we want to!) then it is indeed possible to start working on slowing down the base-game, which would lead to:
1: Less 4 man escapes.
4: Less the game spiralling into 4 K's after 1 survivor dies.It's a normalised experience.
While I do think the game needs to last longer
Then play around with generator regression (:
See, we have 2 routes. The B route is slower as we discussed. The A route can be the fastest but it is also possible to experience major regression.The stronger you make regression, the more tempted people are to start to use part. In the most extreme case: We give the killer to kick a generator to INSTANTLY regress it;
Even with this power the game would still be functional as a 5 part gen only requires the killer to be away for 10 seconds. (about 5-6 seconds if there are 2 survivors on a gen).
Even though survivors could still gen rush in this extreme example; it would be the killer's misplay as they could've instantly regressed a near 80 seconds of generator.If you understand the above, then you understand the main way you can nerf and buff things in a multi-route environment;
Through regression, you could accomplish the same as:
Make at least 1 required to repair generators. However make generators require 15 less charges. Make any number changes necessary so the timing numbers remain the same (meaning that a generator should still take at least 80 seconds total to finish without anything nerfing your progress) This helps stop gen rushes as building a part is harder to modify the timing of and only a max of 3 people can make a part at once (2 if you don't want to go to the basement) while an uncoordinated team is less likely to need all 3 at the same time
Early game nerf; late game buff; normalisation.
I'll try to come up with other ideas.
The beauty of the workshops is how many things you can do with them. There are a lot of mechanics that you can attach to it to make it infinitely more dynamic and adding to the gameplay experience;
This picture alone should set the mood:
Correct. This suggestion 100% helps death efficiency issues. Doesn't solve it but it certainly helps. Hence why it is listed under the good.
I just think that as stated right now there are other issues it could be solving that it doesn't. It's a decent suggestion but it could always be better.
The thing about buffing survivors is because giving a situational option will help the survivors in that situation while also not hurting them outside of that situation. Thus I would expect survivor winrate to go up and killer winrate to go down. This is a problem since Killer winrate is too low right now.
No worries however, changes are not made in isolation so it is a simple matter to make further changes to help with balance issues (hence making 1 part per gen 100% required). Again while making a part required if we also decrease the total gen time (not counting parts. The 1 required part means mathematically it is the same time but there is also travel time ect) does counterbalance the potential this change would have to buff survivors it wouldn't nerf them significantly either. However that starts to go beyond the scope of this suggestion, so yeah
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Honestly just don't be toxic even to those who DO deserve it. Why?
Because everyone thinks they are in the right, always. No one is thinking "I'm going to tbag to be a dick", rather they are thinking "I'm going to tbag because it is funny", which isn't something to get mad at.
Using an ebony mori? Not toxic, they are just playing to win and I shouldn't blame them for OP items
Same for a decisive strike.
Flashlight spam? What? Am I supposed to expect them NOT to use their items optimally?
ect ect ect
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Anyways, this arfleblarg has it's pros and cons:
The good:
- It indeed makes doing gens with 1-2 people more reasonable
- Adds more options into what you can do at any given moment
The bad:
- Doesn't do anything to help gen rushes
- Objectively buffs survivors with no other changes made
Potential improvement:
- Make at least 1 required to repair generators. However make generators require 15 less charges. Make any number changes necessary so the timing numbers remain the same (meaning that a generator should still take at least 80 seconds total to finish without anything nerfing your progress) This helps stop gen rushes as building a part is harder to modify the timing of and only a max of 3 people can make a part at once (2 if you don't want to go to the basement) while an uncoordinated team is less likely to need all 3 at the same time
I'll try to come up with other ideas. While I do think the game needs to last longer I have other idea's for that. If I do it right then it should be possible to reduce the amount of time spent on a generator further while allowing for more interesting decision making. Having some kind of part system is important to having something like that work however
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@NuclearBurrito2and healing in the case of thanatophobia would all ALSO be doing the main objective.
No; it doesn't. Healing adds more time unless your heal is near instant. Only if your heal is near instant and linked to taking out a negative multiplier on generators is it directly advancing the main bar.
That can be arranged
Hint: instant heal exist in this game for some reason
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@NuclearBurrito2 said:
@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@NuclearBurrito2So if I have all generators with 5 parts, you're saying that I still have 400 seconds left to do? (+the 20/40)
If not then I've indeed been doing the main objective.
no you have 400 charges. We don't measure progress in terms of time and if we did then cleansing ruin totems, opening chests that contain toolboxes, and healing in the case of thanatophobia would all ALSO be doing the main objective.
Ah, so if there exists a key that can be found and you find it, it instantly activates all generators, you haven't progressed because you've done 0 generator charges/ or does it mean it simply progressed to the last 20/40 of the objective bar?
In terms of mechanics that key would need to instantly give the generators 80 charges each. Your parts do not do this nor does it do something that is close enough to say it is that.
Here is the difference: Your parts speed up future progress, this makes them mechanically equivalent to a toolbox
this also means that it becomes less efficient the more progress is made before hand since it isn't retroactive.
However you are conflating this with an absolute boost in progress (which is where you are getting the -15 from)
Before you have started working on a generator there is no difference between the 2 since increasing the speed at which you make progress by 10% will make you complete the gen just as fast as decreasing the required progress by 10%. However once you start working on the generator any future speed bonuses become less meaningful. Toolboxes can seem similar because they repair a finite number of generators and can repair until the equivalent number of charges is reached however they can still have this problem if you don't end up using the entire toolbox. However the amount of charges that get made at the faster speed depends on the amount of progress you have already made on the generator you are installing it in.
Btw increasing the number of charges by 10 and decreasing the required charges by 10 is ALSO mechanically different.
Also I'm not sure why you are so defensive about the whole sidequesting thing, it's not like sidequests are inherently problematic and none of this discussion has actually established if this is a good mechanic or not
I vote we call this an arfleblarg and move on to if it should be added or not
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@NuclearBurrito2So if I have all generators with 5 parts, you're saying that I still have 400 seconds left to do? (+the 20/40)
If not then I've indeed been doing the main objective.
no you have 400 charges. We don't measure progress in terms of time and if we did then cleansing ruin totems, opening chests that contain toolboxes, and healing in the case of thanatophobia would all ALSO be doing the main objective.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@NuclearBurrito2Main Objective:
That which reduces from the 420/440 second bar resulting in the escape route being opened up, Thus:
-Opening exit gates = -20
-Doing a full generator = -80
-Doing parts = - 15 per partThings that don't subtract from this timer:
Healing: = Still 420/440 left to do
Sabotaging: = Still 420/440 left to do
Cleansing dull totem: = Still 420/440 left to do
etc.Doing a part is NOT -15 per part. Since again if I do 40 charges of a generator before installing the part then I will not be decreasing the amount of time to do the remaining 40 charges by 15 seconds
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@NuclearBurrito2We are talking about things that you do. There's no "To charge".
There's To sit still next to a gen for 80 seoncds or to go to workshops and install parts. Both directly subtract from the 420/440 second bar. It has nothing to do with charges.
It has to do with whether it subtracts from the 420/440.
Generator progress is measured in charges not seconds. This is because the amount of time it takes to progress it by 1 charge is not always 1 second, using a toolbox increases the number of charges per second and great checks suddenly increase the number of charges, hex: ruin decreases it and a brand new part adds 25 charges all at once.
And also having more than one person work on a single generator will both obviously install more than 1 charge per second but will also install less than 2 charges per second given 2 people working on the generator.
Same thing technically applies to the gates but it matters less there.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@NuclearBurrito2 said:
@Mc_Harty said:
370 comments...
Why the [BAD WORD] is there 370 comments?Because of flowers, steak and other things that probably smell very good.
When are we going to talk about perfume?
?
Well we have flowers, known for smelling good. And we have sticks of beef which is delicious and tasty things smell good. So we need perfume next cuz that is also supposed to smell good (in theory anyways)
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@Paddy4583you can either just play the standard game
Standard game? There's no such things as the standard game. There is just the game.
I'm sorry, but if you've been sitting at a generator for 80 seconds, you've been side-questing for 70 seconds.
Those 70 seconds sitting there putting in regressable charges were not mandatory. If it's not mandatory then it is....?If it's not mandatory then it is............?
Well it's side-questing by your own logic xD
Actually it's 80 CHARGES. It hasn't necessarily taken 80 seconds.
And no matter how many parts you install you still need to give 80 charges to the generator. Yes that is mechanically different from a part giving 10 charges thus reducing the number of charges, since if you work on a generator for 40 charges and then collect and install 3 parts before working on the remaining 40 charges it will take you 60 seconds without any additional modifiers. However if it instead directly granted the charges then installing the 3 parts would instantly complete the generator (renaming it to a flower does not change the fact that it took 80 charges which is the mechanical aspect).
Doing that would take a total of 105 seconds not counting travel time btw
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@Mc_Harty said:
370 comments...
Why the [BAD WORD] is there 370 comments?Because of flowers, steak and other things that probably smell very good.
When are we going to talk about perfume?
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@NuclearBurrito2 said:
@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@NuclearBurrito2The rogue-like is a bad example since it's single player, but the fortnite example is good:
The reason why the fortnite example works is that the collection of players in total always have a 100% win-rate.
Fortnite: 100 people with 1% winrate.
Football: 2 people with a 50% winrate = 100% winrate.But in your 4k example, survivors and killers will never total a 100% win-rate per match the same way fortnite and football does.
It actually adds up to MORE than 100%. Since each player wins and loses separately that makes it effectively 5 "teams" (for lack of a better term) rather than 2.
If everyone has a 30% winrate then that's a 150% total winrate, or in otherwords you would expect to see an average of 1.5 winners per game
Survivors are 1 faction. Killers are 1 faction. There are only 2 numbers that there are to add.
If you play a squad versus squad in fort-nite you don't get a 200% win-rate for each time 1 squad wins. The win-rate per member should be 50% per member in the squad, meaning 50% per team/faction on average thus 100% per game.
That's just it. Survivor's are NOT a faction. At least not a single one anyways.
Idk how you define a faction but I've always used this definition:
A faction is a group of people who:
1: Win and lose together
and
2: Have a mutually exclusive wincondition with all other factionsSurvivors/Killers would meet requirement 2 except survivors don't fit requirement 1
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@PubStar87 said:
Mister_xD said:YOU dying 85% of the time does not mean EVERYONE dying 85% of the time.
go play some killer before you come here and complain how unfair and OP killers are.
I usually 4K with Killer
Without using BBQ&C btw
doesn't change the fact that survivor winrate is 40%
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@NuclearBurrito2The rogue-like is a bad example since it's single player, but the fortnite example is good:
The reason why the fortnite example works is that the collection of players in total always have a 100% win-rate.
Fortnite: 100 people with 1% winrate.
Football: 2 people with a 50% winrate = 100% winrate.But in your 4k example, survivors and killers will never total a 100% win-rate per match the same way fortnite and football does.
It actually adds up to MORE than 100%. Since each player wins and loses separately that makes it effectively 5 "teams" (for lack of a better term) rather than 2.
If everyone has a 30% winrate then that's a 150% total winrate, or in otherwords you would expect to see an average of 1.5 winners per game
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Also killers literally get victory cubes for killing people (and ONLY for killing people, they do not get it for other actions)
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@thesuicidefox said:
@NuclearBurrito2 said:
@thesuicidefox said:
@NuclearBurrito2 said:
And the fact that you can pip despite losing or depip despite winning is irrelevant, pips are to assist with match making, which cares more about contribution than outcome. (or in otherwords if you don't do very many gens, get hooked twice but escape anyways then you may have won but you haven't shown that you are ready for more skilled players, while if you do every gen and win most of your chases but then get hocked and facecamped right at the end then dispite your loss you showed that you are still worthy of higher ranks (with probably a better team to let you escape more))Right which is why if you do all that stuff to pip but still die the game considers it a "win" and you rank up, where if you don't do that stuff but escape you "lose" and therefore rank down.
Pipping is the win condition because stuff like this can happen. If the game went purely by kills/escapes then you would get screwed out of "wins" specifically because of bad luck or because of bad teammates.
######### are you talking about. The game does not say you win just because you piped. Instead it shows that you are dead/sacrificed, that you lost your item ect ect ect too bad so sad try again next time
The fact you think this way is why you get all pissy about stuff like hatch or SWF in other threads because to a player like you, only a 4k is a win.
If you rank up you won. PERIOD. Just like any other game, you rank up if you win, and rank down if you lose. Therefore pip = win conditions. You can make up whatever other rules you want, but that's the way the game determines if you won or lost.
Not how that works. Again Overwatch is another example of a game where ranking does not imply winning. Deceit is another.
Prove that ranking = winning, then we will talk
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@NuclearBurrito2 said:
@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@NuclearBurrito2I'd estimate the ideal to be closer to 30% escape/4k rate.
I suggest estimating again.
The survivors need to survive; that's the balance; a 50% survival rate. That means less negative experiences across the board. As simple as that.
We both agreed that in a perfectly balanced game a 50% survival rate requires an ungodly snowball effect.
Games where you lose more than win tend to be more satisfying in the event that you win, thus having a low winrate across the board.
This is hardly the only game that balances like this, battle royal games only have a 1-5% winrate (depending on the exact game we are talking about) and they are extremely popular. Roguelikes are known for being hard enough that many people never get to the end at all and dark souls is popular enough to almost be it's own subgenre.
Both genres are not 2 teams against each other. There are very little places where games have 2 teams against each other with an (intended) unequal win-rate.
This game is no exception? I've been talking with the premise of everyone having an equal win rate. In fact the games I just listed have an equal winrate, that 1% is the same for everyone (roguelikes and darksouls are both singleplayer so yeah)
Also Throne of Lies has an intended unequal win-rate.
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@PubStar87 said:
85% of matches you dieWhy bother bringing in items?
60% actually
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Combine with M&A for a tiny terror radius
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just play normally. He's not even that strong
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@thesuicidefox said:
@NuclearBurrito2 said:
And the fact that you can pip despite losing or depip despite winning is irrelevant, pips are to assist with match making, which cares more about contribution than outcome. (or in otherwords if you don't do very many gens, get hooked twice but escape anyways then you may have won but you haven't shown that you are ready for more skilled players, while if you do every gen and win most of your chases but then get hocked and facecamped right at the end then dispite your loss you showed that you are still worthy of higher ranks (with probably a better team to let you escape more))Right which is why if you do all that stuff to pip but still die the game considers it a "win" and you rank up, where if you don't do that stuff but escape you "lose" and therefore rank down.
Pipping is the win condition because stuff like this can happen. If the game went purely by kills/escapes then you would get screwed out of "wins" specifically because of bad luck or because of bad teammates.
######### are you talking about. The game does not say you win just because you piped. Instead it shows that you are dead/sacrificed, that you lost your item ect ect ect too bad so sad try again next time
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@NuclearBurrito2I'd estimate the ideal to be closer to 30% escape/4k rate.
I suggest estimating again.
The survivors need to survive; that's the balance; a 50% survival rate. That means less negative experiences across the board. As simple as that.
We both agreed that in a perfectly balanced game a 50% survival rate requires an ungodly snowball effect.
Games where you lose more than win tend to be more satisfying in the event that you win, thus having a low winrate across the board.
This is hardly the only game that balances like this, battle royal games only have a 1-5% winrate (depending on the exact game we are talking about) and they are extremely popular. Roguelikes are known for being hard enough that many people never get to the end at all and dark souls is popular enough to almost be it's own subgenre.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@NuclearBurrito2 said:
@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@NuclearBurrito2Define a win for a killer? They definitely pipped in their matches.
I think ZubatLel pipped/neutral pipped in ALL his games from rank 20 to rank 1 without PERKS AND ADD-ONS.That's about a 100% winrate there.
Killer win = 4k
Survivor win = escapeI can't stand it when people conflate ranking/pipping with winning
Killer 4kin is not a win. Pipping is winning, which is why you rank up when you pip and not only when you 4k. When you 4k, you typically double pip meaning you did more than just winning.
Pipping is not winning and ranking is also not winning. According to both the tutorial and the fundumental design of the game the Killer's goal is to kill everyone and the survivors goal is to survive. I have a much more drawn out argument if you need it but keep in mind that this isn't the only game which has it's ranking system and winconditions as seperate, overwatch uses contribution to determine if you rank up at lower ranks and only switches to using wins at mid to high ranks for example. This is because ranks have a purpose that isn't necessarily fulfilled by just checking wining, specifically it is there to match players of even skill levels, in a game like this high skilled players can get screwed over and low skill players can get lucky very often so winning isn't a good enough tool for matchmaking. However that doesn't change what your winconditions are in the first place
You stated that:
Survivor WR = 50%
Killer WR = 50%this would be balance. But if a survivor should survive 50% of the time and a killer should 4k 50% of the time THEN LITERALLY EVERY GAME should be all survivors dying or all survivors escaping, otherwise such a ratio would be IMPOSSIBLE, meaning that if 1 survivor escapes, all should magically become alive, otherwise your suggestion is impossible. xD
This is 100% correct. I do not think survivors should be escaping 50% of the time and I don't think killers should be 4king 50% of the time. I'd estimate the ideal to be closer to 30% escape/4k rate. This would mean a 1v1 in a hatch situation is a 50/50 and then you work your way up from there.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@NuclearBurrito2Define a win for a killer? They definitely pipped in their matches.
I think ZubatLel pipped/neutral pipped in ALL his games from rank 20 to rank 1 without PERKS AND ADD-ONS.That's about a 100% winrate there.
Killer win = 4k
Survivor win = escapeI can't stand it when people conflate ranking/pipping with winning
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And seriously. Wanting longer games isn't a bad thing
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@NuclearBurrito2More than half of survivors SHOULD be dying. Since the only way for the game to be perfectly balanced otherwise is to have an ungodly snowball effect to the point where after 1 survivor dies the others are literally guaranteed to lose
Exactly HALF of the survivors should escape through the exit gates and the hatch should not be a free-escape factor in that.
I'm not sure if you checked the win-rates, but I suggest checking them again.
So you wanted more gen-time after all, sugar coated as second objective? No thank you.Last time I checked the survivor winrate was 40% while the killer winrate was only 25%. Or in otherwords a 15% imbalance
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@NuclearBurrito2More than half of survivors SHOULD be dying. Since the only way for the game to be perfectly balanced otherwise is to have an ungodly snowball effect to the point where after 1 survivor dies the others are literally guaranteed to lose
Exactly HALF of the survivors should escape through the exit gates and the hatch should not be a free-escape factor in that.
I'm not sure if you checked the win-rates, but I suggest checking them again.
So you wanted more gen-time after all, sugar coated as second objective? No thank you.if 50% of survivors escape then that is an average of 2 kills per game (duh)
However in a perfectly balanced game Survivor WR = Killer WR
Survivor WR = 50%
Killer WR = 50%So if everyone dies 50% of the time then in order for any given person to always live half the time is for everyone to always escape when ANYONE escapes. Meaning that any game where someone dies must be a game which eventually becomes a 4k
If the snowball effect is lessened then in order to have a fair game the average kills per match must go up and thus the average winrate must go down.
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@The_Crusader said:
AlwaysInAGoodShape said:@The_Crusader said:
5 totems = 70 seconds, and then there is the time running between them. It's like an extra gen.
6 gens isn't enough for some people it seems. I bet these people are loving the load screen issues. 3 vs 1 and Noed, when you need every advantage you can get.
If gens go too fast it's on the player not the gane.
Yeap, you'd be surprised how many people claiming they want "second-objectives" simply just secretly want to add more gen-time so that they don't have to be confronted with their lack of skill.
They try to make extra gen time come in another form as to make it less obvious.
Exactly lol.
More than half of survivors are dying but some people can't realize the problem is with the way they play, not the gen times.
Although I do admit that some killers are better than others when it comes to pressuring survivors.
More than half of survivors SHOULD be dying. Since the only way for the game to be perfectly balanced otherwise is to have an ungodly snowball effect to the point where after 1 survivor dies the others are literally guaranteed to lose
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What do you mean making it less obvious? I've been explicitly pushing for new objectives which slow down the game
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@NuclearBurrito2 said:
@AlwaysInAGoodShapeSo in the analogy of the SoB
If I walk up to a generator and give it 40 charges. Then I stop working on the gen to collect 3 pieces of beef which I put on the stick next to the generator. And then I go back to finish the generator, assuming I have no items, always get good checks and am not being effected by any perks how long will it take me to complete the generator?
Yeah, the flower example is the better example. Remove the sticks; once you instal a part on a generator it transforms into a flower. (you then work on the flower. You can no longer work on the generator since of course a flower isn't the same as a generator.)
You wouldn't be able to work on a (flat)generator the moment you instal a part on a stick. You'd have to work on the stick instead.
Perks in the hypothetical version simple also affect sticks:
Perk x: Increase gen progression and stick progression by y/z/aLook. The point is that there are 7 locations with a thing. You need to give 5 of those 7 things 80 charges.
Creating a part does not change that nor does it even add charges, just like how hex: ruin and other gen stopping perks don't remove charges or increase the number needed.
Changing the name or model of the exact location does not change the fact that it is a thing that needs 80 charges. Flower, generator whatever it is semantics
If the parts were 100% always required then it would be meaningful since then completing a generator would require more than 80 charges
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape
So in the analogy of the SoB
If I walk up to a generator and give it 40 charges. Then I stop working on the gen to collect 3 pieces of beef which I put on the stick next to the generator. And then I go back to finish the generator, assuming I have no items, always get good checks and am not being effected by any perks how long will it take me to complete the generator?
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape the issue with the sticks of beef thing is that in order for it to really be that you can do them instead of gens you need a mechanical difference from the suggestion in the op.
Because no matter how many sticks of beef you have it doesn't mean jack ######### if you don't walk up to a generator and hold M1 to give it charges
And also the analogy breaks down when you consider that the different "methods" interact with each other.
I can do a gen for 40 seconds, and THEN go and make then install the parts, doing this is meaningfully different from doing the whole thing with no parts and installing new parts from the start. However if the parts fill a separate bar then this interaction is lost (or in otherwords, a stick of beef would effectively be created in the act of doing a gen, however the act of creating a stick of beef would never be enough to fully complete a generator)
In addition there is the point about how eventually a generator is completed and you no longer can work on it in that location anymore. In the SoB analogy the mechanics wouldn't interact so you would effectively have 2 gens adjacent to each other where now we have 1 for a total of 14 power mechanisms only 5 of which are needed.
TLDR: Stick of beef doesn't work because in order to prove your point it needs to be meaningfully and mechanically different from what it is supposed to represent
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@thesuicidefox said:
@NuclearBurrito2 The reason every player can win/lose independently is because of the asymmetrical design of the game. Since you can't directly compare one side to the other they have to go by an independent win/loss condition, which is the pip.You are also ignoring the fact that you can pip even if you get 0 kills or die, just like you can depip even if you get kills or escape (though since kills/escapes CONTRIBUTE to the win condition this is a bit harder to do than the former).
Having an Asymmetrical game in no way means you can't have mutually exclusive win conditions (evolve, deceit, town of salem ect)
And the fact that you can pip despite losing or depip despite winning is irrelevant, pips are to assist with match making, which cares more about contribution than outcome. (or in otherwords if you don't do very many gens, get hooked twice but escape anyways then you may have won but you haven't shown that you are ready for more skilled players, while if you do every gen and win most of your chases but then get hocked and facecamped right at the end then dispite your loss you showed that you are still worthy of higher ranks (with probably a better team to let you escape more))
Overwatch actually uses the same system at lower ranks so that supports don't get stuck in low ranks because their team can't capitalize on their help.
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Btw if you are looking for a game with a similar tone to DBD then I would recommend Deceit. Completely different core gameplay but it nails the horror aspect. Much better community but that's probably because it isn't that big yet. (mario kart? Really!?) Basically think if Trouble in Terrorist Town was a better social deduction game
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Also for a survivor:
What action is the one that takes you out of the game? Escaping (wincon) and Dying (losecon).
Which action gives you the victory message at the end of the game? Escaping
Which action has the most emphasis put on it? Escaping
Which action is the one with the most rewards? Escaping
According to the lore what are the survivors trying to do in a trial? Escape
According to the tutorial what are the survivors trying to do in a trial? EscapeFor the Killer(less straight forward as the survivor but the same premise applies):
What action can you preform to end the game? Killing everyone (wincon) or everyone escaping ( losecon)
Which action gives you the victory message at the end of the game? Killing everyone
Which action has the most emphasis put on it? Killing
Which action is the one with the most rewards? Killing
According to the lore what are the Killers trying to do in a trial? Kill everyone
According to the tutorial what are the Killers trying to do in a trial? Kill everyoneIdk if you have heard of it but a game which uses the exact same system is Deceit, ranking system (In that it isn't based on winning or losing) included. It does make the wincon significantly more clear (winning explicitly says that you win rather than just displaying a complimenting message and vice versa) but the point is that this hardly would be the only game that has their ranking and winning systems separated
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@thesuicidefox said:
@NuclearBurrito2 If we look at any other game, you "rank up" when you win and "rank down" when you lose. Therefore, pipping is the win condition. Not escapes or kills. Those are your objectives but that's not how you actually win a game. You can get 0k/die and still rank up, or "win", just as you can get kills/escape and still rank down, or "lose".You know I can still use that line of reasoning to show that escaping/killing are how you win/lose.
In any game the way you end the game is by reaching the point at which the winners and loses are deciding. Or in other words anyone that can win already has won. Most of the time there is a wincondition you much achieve FIRST in symmetrical games. Other times there are winconditions which prevent the other person from achieving theirs by definition.
However piping doesn't work like that, like I said everyone can win thus you can reach the point at which you have "won" but the game is still going. Win conditions aren't just what make you feel good, they are what ends the game.
Also not every game uses that kind of ranking system, most games do because most games with a ranked system are symetrical and either it is a 1v1 and pure skill (which is where it works best) or it is a team game where your team and another team go head to head with exactly 1 winner (which is sub-optimal but still works).
Since all 5 players win and lose individually with the 4 survivors effectively being neutral towards each other this doesn't work. If you have heard of the game town of salem you would know that trying to put elo in an asymetric game usually doesn't work out too well (they tried, It doesn't work), so instead this game bases your rank based on contribution rather than just victory.
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But yeah. Specific things that are too strong:
Decisive strike
Insta-heal Syringe
NOED
Ebony Mori -
@The_Crusader said:
AlwaysInAGoodShape said:It's below 30% on all platforms at rank 20 and below 45% on all platforms in rank 1.
And so the survivor buff will come, but we all know that NOED alone probably accounts for a good chunk of that.
Remove NOED, survivors survival rate goes up, devs can justify buffing killers in other ways to compensate.
But no some people just won't hear it.
I'm cool with a NOED nerf assuming counterbalancing occurs. Hell these additional objectives could even BE the counterbalencing.
Anyways though, the issue isn't the 45-30% escape rate, the issue is that the KILLER winrate is only 25%. So either we need to lower the survivor winrate, raise the killer winrate or a mix of both
To lower survivor winrate most effectively you need to make the killer early game easier/longer
To raise killer winrate most effectively you need to make killer end game easier (that means hatch) -
@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@NuclearBurrito2For PS4 it's exactly 40%.
The other 2 are in between 40-45% I think.At lower ranks, the win-rate drops to almost 25% and that is terrify if you actually consider that at this point everybody is escaping through the hatch and not the exit gates.
The number of people escaping through gates is a lot lower.
Rank 20 has a 30% winrate.
Higher ranks also actually escape via the hatch MORE than lower ranked survivors. Although it's only a 1% difference so it's probably just margin of error, and my hatch stats are not up to date
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######### are you talking about. Piping is just how you rank, determining victory isn't even it's job. Your stated win condition as per the games tutorial (which btw doesn't even MENTION pips) is as Survivor: Escape and Killer: Eliminate the survivors.thesuicidefox said:I play for pips too. I only play really hard to escape if I find a good item or to deny the killer a 4k, just so then it's like the group "won".
@NuclearBurrito2 said:
######### is up with this community.I play to win
Then that means you play for pips, because pips are how the game defines a win. Escapes/kills are not actually wins as defined by the game. They contribute to wins, but are not the sole condition of what a win is. Not to say you can't play to escape/kill, just that it's not technically a win. If they were then you could set any goal for yourself and call that a win. "I found all the totems" or "I hit everyone with Third Seal". Those are not wins, they are imaginary win conditions, just like escapes/kills.
@Eveline said:
Funny how most of the killers I encounter want that 4k so badly lol. No wonder they are frustrated with the game.Exactly. Maybe if they played to the game's actual win conditions they would have a lot more fun and be a lot less frustrated. It's like saying as survivor "I win if I get chase by the killer but never get hit". Well the moment you get hit you're probably going to curse out the game and make all kinds of excuses.
Note how it is technically possible for all 5 players in a game to pip despite this being a 4v1 game
The whole point of having a pip system is for matchmaking since winning in this game doesn't guarantee that you actually earned it. -
Higher ranks is actually ABOVE 40%. Closer to 45%AlwaysInAGoodShape said:@The_Crusader said:
What's the escape rate around 40%? It's less than half.But apparantly survivors need more objectives to do.
God forbid the problem lies with the person playing killer rather than the objective time.
At higher ranks its at 40% for survivors. Only at very high level survivors against very high level killers is the problem that killers (actually!) don't have enough time.
Which is why solutions that simply try to make the game longer would all hurt the game for the majority.
40% is the overall average. The range is 35-45%
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Neither. I was C where in addition to the gens and gate there is a 3rd (or 4th or 5th or whatever) requirement to escaping and that the whole process takes a total of greater than 420 secondsAlwaysInAGoodShape said:I hinted at this in my OP: That there's a trinity of options. Basically in DBD you're doing the same thing under many different names:
"healing", "doing generators", "Sabotaging". You are doing the EXACT same thing. The only difference is what it accomplishes + the location.
Therefore, to me it was important that we didn't simply name the same experience as something else; instead we'd CHANGE the experience.So what would you prefer?
A: Instead of doing 5 Gens; you need to do 3 Gens and 2 cankers? (Cankers take 80 seconds to complete and give skillchecks)
B: or would you want to do what the op suggests meaning you do the "same thing"; doing generators, but you'd actually be doing different things.