No_Mither_No_Problem
No_Mither_No_Problem
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@Marcus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/608707#Comment_608707
You can't see where she's phasing, so you can just assume, never be sure. Also, you already have the phasing sound, so you don't need Object to know when she's phasing towards you. Object only cucks Anal Beads, but that is fair, because Anal Beads are already a stupid add-on, but Spirit can deal with it otherwise.
I already know how strong Object is against all killers not Nurse or Spirit. My point is : is stronger against stealth killers like Ghost Face than against other M1 killers.
"You can't see where she's phasing, so you can just assume, never be sure. Also, you already have the phasing sound, so you don't need Object to know when she's phasing towards you"
Yeah, believe it or not, OoO's effective maximum range of 72 meters extends a lot further out than Spirit's phasing sound and gives you a warning much farther in advance.
" My point is : is stronger against stealth killers like Ghost Face than against other M1 killers"
And my point is: Given how ridiculously strong Object is at base, that's not a Faceghost problem; that's an Object problem.
@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/608707#Comment_608707
OOO definitely does not hurt Spirit. It helps her. A LOT.
I had a Spirit daily shortly after GF came out, and I had been avoiding player her because I wanted to play GF. I got a game where a Meg was using OOO. I found her and downed her in the first 20 seconds of the game. The moment she looked at me, and I saw she was close enough, I just phase walked to where I saw the aura and found her. She was totally and utterly #########. OOO is really a bane against Spirit because she can move around without you being able to see her, and all she needs is to know your location for a moment to come get you.
OOO against any other killer is really strong though. Against stealth killers it's borderline broken.
OOO needs a rework IMO. The devs said they are looking into how aura perks work on stealth abilities and I think that's a bad move. Aura perks versus stealth is not the problem, OOO is the problem. Fix OOO and people will stop complaining about stealth killer auras.
I guess walking away when Spirit starts to phase or just looking away when she gets too close is too hard for that Survivor?
Oh, who am I kidding, of course it is; this is a Meg we're talking about.
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@Marcus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/608634#Comment_608634
It doesn't cuck Nurse kr Spirit. And other killers don't have their entire power destroyed by this perk, like Ghost Face.
"It doesn't cuck Nurse or Spirit."
Nurse is a given, and it cucks Spirit because you can see when she's phasing, but she can't see you while phasing, so if you think she's phasing towards you, just walk to another location.
"And other killers don't have their entire power destroyed by this perk, like Ghost Face."
You can see exactly what the Killer is doing and where they're doing it at practically all times, giving you more awareness and knowledge of the Killer's plans than any other mechanic in the entire game. Killers don't have their powers destroyed by Object; the Killers themselves are destroyed. Not having a stealth power doesn't change that in any way.
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There's actually a piece of software you can get that makes Spirit a total cakewalk. Some would call it cheating, but I think it facilitates the way she was meant to be played.
I think it's called... what was it... a pair of headphones?
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@Marcus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/608566#Comment_608566
"Anyone who says he's better than Myers is utterly kidding themselves".
I think you shot yourself in the foot in that sentence, LOL.
Also, I saw more people running Object of Obsession nowadays. Just yesterday I saw 3 solo survivors running OoO against a poor Wraith. Ghost Face doesn't make a exception, he gets cucked pretty hard by that perk.
Object is a sleeper meta Perk that cucks every single Killer in the game. Your point?
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He's the second best M1 Killer in the game. Don't listen to anyone who says he's weak; anyone who thinks he can't be stealthy just haven't learned that his sneaking actually has a skill cap. Not only does he have the ability to quickly put you on a 1-hit down, but he's also the best ambush Killer in the entire game and his lack of a red stain is an amazing mindgame tool—hell, even when he's busted out of his stealth, his crouch has very useful mindgame utility.
Anyone who says he's better than Myers is utterly kidding themselves. Myers has an okay snowball and faster vaults. Faceghost has mindgames, faster stalking, 115% speed at the start of the match, better consistency, a lean button, and a crouch button. He's better than Myers in almost every aspect.
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Well, considering Killers are designed to be the power role I would say that escaping should feel like a massive achievement and the average game should be 1 or 2 Survivors escaping... if they're lucky.
But here at red ranks, where generators get done so fast that not getting a hook within the first 45 seconds of the match basically means you've already lost the game, it's definitely the Survivors who are the power role.
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Just gonna drop a meme because it's what I do best
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Leatherface
Butcher's Best Chili—Start a chainsaw sprint at maximum acceleration.
Family Photo—Grants the ability to cancel a tantrum.
Hillbilly
Despair Engravings—Grants the ability to kill Survivors who have been hit by the chainsaw three times.
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Getting adept Spirit without using her power.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/607494#Comment_607494
Your fix has fundamentally different design goals.
I'm trying to make something as close to the original Legion as possible without bringing back his cheese and lack of interesting counter play, while maximizing lethality as much as is reasonable without breaking him (which as we can see is a very fine line to walk).
You're trying to take the current Legion and improve on his stall potential. That's not invalid or anything, but it's different enough that it's hard so say that one is just better. Stronger maybe, but not better.
Oh, speaking of current Legion:
I just played a game where not 1, not 2, but 3 Survivors had Sprint Burst. And yet, despite that fact, I was able to get a 4-man hit chain in one use of Frenzy. You know how I got it?
Survivors staying on gens and bum-rushing hooks together. They outright ignored me when I activated Killer Instinct, to the point that even with Sprint Burst, they weren't able to outrun me. They sat around the hook after I hooked someone and bum-rushed it when I activated Killer Instinct. I wasn't able to hit them; they let me hit them.Their tactics were so unbelievably monkey-brained that despite their triple panic button, I was able to chain hits on them. And they have the audacity to yell at me for "camping as Legion".
This is why people still think Legion is OP. This is why they think that being 115 is a justification for Frenzy being slow as molasses. This is why Legion got nerfed into the ground. Because of brainless idiots who don't understand that when the Killer charges at you in a dead sprint, you run the other way.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/607458#Comment_607458
Nonono. With old legion and with your legion 25% is fine.
But here 25% of the duration is not 25% of the relative distance.
Remember, there is a 0.75 second startup.
So if the Survivor is literally right on top of you when you use Frenzy, then by the time you start moving they are 3 meters away assuming that they started to run (which we are).
It takes 1.875 seconds to cover that 3 meter distance so anything less than that is a loss in distance even before the cooldown starts, so you will never hit them. This math was all factored into the 6.6 base effective range I've mentioned a few times.
Again for reference, the Spirit has an effective range of 9.2.
If the startup wasn't there then this Legions effective range would be 9.6 instead btw. But the startup exists for non-balance reasons in the first place so it's not something I'd consider changing for this to work.
I'm not saying we can't mess with the cooldown, just that simply tweaking it to work like old Legion isn't going to cut it.
Well I was talking about my Legion rework, for obvious reasons.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/607375#Comment_607375
32% is the absolute minimum we can let him use his power at. Since anything less and he would fail to get a hit in even at 0 meters.
I don't think that's the right approach.
"32% is the absolute minimum we can let him use his power at. Since anything less and he would fail to get a hit in even at 0 meters."
Not true at all. If you get close to the Survivor in your first Frenzy, you could easily catch them with a second short burst if you put them into an uncompromising position. It can be as simple as mindgaming them normally and then turning on Frenzy when you lunge. And besides, just because the minimum might be too low doesn't mean that waiting for it to just be higher before activating Frenzy isn't out of the question.
I know it's just personal experience, but having the minimum recharge so low was what allowed me to do well with old Legion when it came to chaining hits. In my honest opinion, the fact that he needs to have all of his power back is what nerfed him the most. Having it readily available soon after losing it was what made it good for hitting people quickly.
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@NullSp3c said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/607234#Comment_607234
People usually run for loops and not always in a straight line. Even if there is a tree, the survivor will dodge that tree by starting to run to the side and legion just needs to change the camera very very slightly to the side and loses no time doing so. It's a very niche enxample but you get the idea.
Even if you stand absolutely still and only start running when the Legion turns around to chase you, he would need to hit that first Survivor in under 3.5 seconds to catch you.
Need proof? I’ll do the math.
Legion runs at 5.6 MPS. A running Survivor runs at 4 MPS. This means that Legion catches up to a running Survivor at a rate of 1.6 MPS. When Killer Instinct activates, this iteration of Legion stays in Frenzy for 12 seconds. Multiply that by 1.6, and the Legion covers 19.2 meters more than a running Survivor in that time. This means that to outpace the Legion in a Frenzy, you need to be more than 19.2 meters away from him.
Put more simply, Legion covers 67.2 meters in FF, sure, but a running Survivor covers 48 meters in that same time. The difference between the two is only 19.2 meters.
So let's say he starts chasing after someone, and you don't run until he turns around to chase you. He is running away from your position at a rate of 5.6 MPS. In a mere 3.5 seconds, he runs 19.6 meters away from your location—already more than the distance you need to be from him to outrun him.
At a closure rate of 1.6 MPS, this means that in order to hit that first Survivor within 3.5 seconds, the Survivor needs to start running from his Frenzy when he is 2.1875 meters away.
2.1875 meters. A Survivor can walk more distance than that in a second—2.26 meters, to be exact.
And this is all if the second Survivor stands stock still until the Legion activates his Frenzy. So you can see why even with a suboptimal path, running away screws him over.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/607004#Comment_607004
Ok so by THAT math (thinking about it that does make more sense and I made the same mistake myself) the Legion would need to be able to travel WAY faster in order to make chain hitting work, even in theory.
How the heck does anyone get chain hits again? Anyways:
Using the 9.6 M/S* 5 seconds we get that the survivor is 48 meters away. In order to catch up from that distance in 12 seconds the Legion would need to move at 8 M/S. Obviously that's unreasonable.
Something we COULD (technically) do is double the time (thus making it 24 seconds) again. Since that would mean that the Legion could literally Frenzy across the entire map, meaning that the Survivor would be forced to stop running away at some point ant would have to start running in something other than a straight line away from the Legion, at which point the Legion starts gaining ground significantly faster than 1.6 M/S.
Another option would be trying to increase the initial speed further, since if it's something like 6 M/S at all times then the initial time spent running away would be smaller. Specifically it would be 40 meters of distance. That would require 20 seconds of running at that speed, however that can be fudged in if needed.
Anyways though, looking at these numbers really makes me question how the hell Legion gets chain hits. Because he DOES get chain hits, even if it's not consistently. Do Survivors just not bother to run away? Or are we still underestimating the length of a meter and thus the initial distance is much shorter than we think it would be? For example if we started with 3 meters instead of 8 then the 2nd Survivor would end up a far more manageable 18 meters away. Sure that sounds insanely close but somehow Legion is currently able to get chain hits off sometimes and the math doesn't check out for that with larger distances.
BTW. If we set his speed to 6 M/S then he would be able to hit anyone in his terror radius exactly (given a straight line, but since both most people will be closer or further than that and lunges exist ect that's still pretty close).
In my rework, I changed his Frenzy to be usable when 25% of the power gauge was filled, since he’s actually worse at chaining hits than your iteration of Frenzy.
This, in my opinion, was what made chaining hits as old Legion possible—not doing it all in one Frenzy, but getting close with one Frenzy and then quickly following it up with another.
Also, to answer your question as to how people get chains: Stupid Survivors. Most to all of my chain hits are from Survivors crouching in place behind trees because they literally do not know that I can see them through walls. And when they aren’t doing that, they’re staying on a generator. My best guess of their thought process is that they somehow get it into their head that the Killer won’t come for them—maybe since they’re used to Legion mains tunneling like absolute 4heads.
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@NullSp3c said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/607004#Comment_607004
Running at 5.6 ms for 12 seconds is a lot(67.2 meters) so it will be very hard for them to run you out. The current frenzy is 50 meters and it accomplishes nothing because of the ms being so low.
"If you’re running towards one Survivor at 5.6 MPS, and the second one is running away at a rate of 4 MPS, then there is a total of 9.6 meters of distance being put between the second Survivor and you every second."
You can't put things like that. This needs to be adjusted because there are variants.
1st variant- The survivor doesn't run exactly the opposite way. What you described is an almost impossible situation.
2nd variant- The different paths that a survivor can go through to run away aren't always a straight line.
3rd- The survivor may or may not see you coming and, even if he hears you, may not know where you're going to.
and so on...
Basically that is the best of the best situations possible.
“Running at 5.6 ms for 12 seconds is a lot(67.2 meters) so it will be very hard for them to run you out. The current frenzy is 50 meters and it accomplishes nothing because of the ms being so low.”
The amount of distance you travel is irrelevant. What matters is how fast you can catch up to a running Survivor.
“You can't put things like that. This needs to be adjusted because there are variants.”
- If the Survivor is far enough away from you that they can’t tell where you are, then chances are, when they do—which shouldn’t take them long unless they have no headphones and a blindfold on—they’ll still be too far away for you to catch up when they start running. Besides, the situation described is two Survivors who were bu chef up before they decided to run away from the Legion—the situation in which Legion’s ability to chain hits ought to shine the most. And yet, it doesn’t.
- The snags in running away you described do little to nothing to hinder the Survivor’s ability to put distance between you and the Killer, and you know it. So what if the path is suboptimal? If they’re running AWAY from you in any fashion while you go the other way to chase another Survivor, then they’ll be putting leagues of distance between you, no matter what.
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@NuclearBurrito Also, I made a miscalculation. If you’re running towards one Survivor at 5.6 MPS, and the second one is running away at a rate of 4 MPS, then there is a total of 9.6 meters of distance being put between the second Survivor and you every second. This means that the Survivor reaches the distance needed to outpace your Frenzy if you chase the first Survivor for longer than 2 seconds. You would literally need to be right on top of them by the time one of them is within hitting range.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
lets move this here, since it has nothing to do with your suggestion and is instead about THIS suggestion.
Anyways:
So starting with the 13 meters you calculated it takes 8.125 seconds to reach them, meaning you have 3.87500 seconds to spare on vaults ect.
Ok so, when a Survivor vaults a pallet or fast vaults a window it takes them 0.5 seconds. Since it takes you 0.9 seconds that means they gain 0.4 seconds of distance.
0.4*4 = 1.6 meters or in other words 1 second. Add in 0.9 and each vault costs the legion 1.9 seconds of time.
1.9*2 = 3.8 so that means he can afford 2 vaults and still hit the Survivor.
There aren't that many places on most maps where there are 3 or more vaults close enough together for that which are also forced, especially since you can hit people immediately after a window vault and during any vault, so if they only barely make it then that isn't going to cut it since the Legion will just lunge and secure the hit.
AND you've just (explicitly) assumed there is no mindgame. Some windows and pallets don't have a mindgame sure, but many of them do and that can sometimes save you time. Sure they can see you through the window if you just stand there, but if you start running in one direction and then turn back to vault then that can mess up their movement a bit, which might let you get to them slightly faster if successful and that can be enough to secure a hit.
Probably not as applicable as in a standard M1 situation, but the possibility is there.
Run back around and vault again. Waste his time. The Legion can’t mindgame the vault if you have actual distance, which you will after that first vault. Running around a loop will always be more cumbersome to the Legion than running in a straight line.
And with the way the walls around windows work, if there is a window that can be decently mindgamed, then that window is probably useless anyway.
But even if the Survivor messes up enough to let you get to them in this scenario, that still ignores the problem that reigns supreme above all else: the scenario I described is being VERY generous in terms of how close you can get to Survivors before they notice you and start running away. In most cases, they will be far too split apart to allow you a good chain. And on that note, in the time it would take for you to hit a second Survivor in the generous scenario applied, the two who have not been hit will have leagues of time and space between themselves and you, and the third will have finished mending because you nerfed it, so you have effectively accomplished nothing. Which means that, just like the current Legion, your iteration of the Killer ultimately fails at having map pressure and stall because of how underwhelming Deep Wound and mending is.
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@NullSp3c said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/606760#Comment_606760
The 10 seconds to mend was the old mend time and people already complained about it but that isn't really important, as you said. But with skillchecks, they must be aware of 2 things: when a skillcheck appears and when legion is coming to down them. it may not seem like it, but makes a huge difference between pressing a button and looking around with no problem and pressing a button but being careful about ######### it up and being careful watching when the killer is coming.
I don't know why people call it 4 hit down because the 1st and 2nd hit are basically one because there is no way in hell that you can't hit the same person again after aplying deep wounds.
I think it ALL doesn't come down only to math because there are a few variants that you have to make to count after the math is done, adjusting it. Just by the fact that people are careful about the skillchecks they are consuming time to when to mend and where, this can give you some more time. The reduced cooldown by canceling it is good even with a loop nearby. Breaking pallets faster is obvious that it will result in a lot less loops and safe places. With the rework, survivors are also in need to heal or, otherwise, you have a frank's mixtape on them (same with exposed). No, it isn't broken. Why? Because you can't vault pallets as you could before and it has counterplay. The stall potential is ginormous in the contrary to what you said. Now people don't even bother about healing or being exposed vs Legion. This rework makes it needed to heal.
Explain to me how this is bad to you?
“The 10 seconds to mend was the old mend time and people already complained about it but that isn't really important, as you said. But with skillchecks, they must be aware of 2 things: when a skillcheck appears and when legion is coming to down them. it may not seem like it, but makes a huge difference between pressing a button and looking around with no problem and pressing a button but being careful about [BAD WORD] it up and being careful watching when the killer is coming.”
You act like watching for skill checks requires actual vigilance. It doesn’t. It takes almost 0 of a decent Survivor’s attention span to hit even great skill checks, let alone good ones. They will, in no way, impact the Survivor’s ability to keep a lookout for the Legion. They are small, easy to deal with, and have no audiovisual disturbances significant enough to be a hindrance to your attention span. At the absolute worst, they will hear you coming as they get a skill check and be forced to fail it, putting a single extra second or two into their mend bar. In exchange, they now have a shorter overall mend time and can speed it up even further with great skill checks.
What a great idea.
”I don't know why people call it 4 hit down because the 1st and 2nd hit are basically one because there is no way in hell that you can't hit the same person again after aplying deep wounds.”
They call it a 4-hit down because you need to hit someone 4 times to down them.
“Just by the fact that people are careful about the skillchecks they are consuming time to when to mend and where, this can give you some more time.”
Already debunked that nonsense, so I won’t bother now.
“The reduced cooldown by canceling it is good even with a loop nearby.”
It doesn’t stop you from being looped, so no, it’s not good if a loop is nearby.
“Breaking pallets faster is obvious that it will result in a lot less loops and safe places.”
Breaking pallets doesn’t matter when he has no stall. That’s why Clown is a bad Killer.
“With the rework, survivors are also in need to heal or, otherwise, you have a frank's mixtape on them (same with exposed). No, it isn't broken. Why? Because you can't vault pallets as you could before and it has counterplay.”
See, except they won’t heal because if it has counterplay, they’ll just, you know, counter it, effectively removing the need to heal. However, a more prevalent issue than that is that having good chase potential doesn’t encourage healing. It encourages genrushing even harder because a good chase Killer still can’t stop that without good stall or map pressure, of which this Legion has none. Let me repeat, if chase potential was a worthy trade-off for stall and pressure, then Clown, Freddy, and Faceghost would all be top-tier Killers.
“The stall potential is ginormous in the contrary to what you said. Now people don't even bother about healing or being exposed vs Legion. This rework makes it needed to heal.”
As described by my previous point, it does the exact opposite of what you say—it makes Survivors ignore healing and do gens even harder.
“Explain to me how this is bad to you?”
Because none of what you just said is true.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/606760#Comment_606760
In both the current and past version of Legion he wouldn't be even close to hitting both Survivors in my Situation.
Old Legion would be 7.94500 meters short from the 2nd survivor and Current Legion would be 10 meters short.
Being able to hit these survivors anyways despite a decent initial distance (5 meters is more than you would give credit for) is excellent chain hitting capability's. No other Killer comes anywhere close to damaging Survivors that quickly and unless your name is Sally or Max, Killers don't tend to cover ground as quickly as you would expect even when using their powers.
Even Spirit who's power is insanely fast only gains about 7 meters depending on addons. (2 second activation time so +8 initial distance, 7.04-4=3.04, 3.04*5= 15.2, 15.2-8=7.2)
This is only a little bit below that for the first hit and more than double that for any additional hits.
@NuclearBurrito I was in the middle of writing a counterclaim, and I intend to finish writing it.
“Being able to hit these survivors anyways despite a decent initial distance (5 meters is more than you would give credit for) is excellent chain hitting capability's.”
Except the calculations you provided are just running in a straight line. It does not include forcing the Legion to jump over a window or pallet or the Survivor having an Exhaustion Perk—and between the density of loops and how common Exhaustion Perks are, a Survivor is far more likely to have one of those at their disposal than they are to be totally defenseless.
Let’s look at a scenario that is much more likely to take place.
You approach 2 Survivors on a generator with Monitor and Abuse. You know you can get to them faster with Frenzy and still get a hit, so you activate it immediately before they notice you. They notice you when you are 8 meters away (because let’s be real, if you let a non-stealth Killer get within 5 meters of you, you need glasses) and run in opposite directions—one to the left, one to the right, but both in the opposite direction of you.
At a rate of 1.6 meters per second, it would take 5 seconds to hit the first Survivor. In that time, the other Survivor is gaining distance on you at a rate of 1 meter per second, for a total of 13 meters between you and them.
If Frenzy lasts for 12 seconds instead of 6, then you would theoretically be able to catch the Survivor, because you would need 8.125 seconds to catch up. However, again—loops and Exhaustion Perks. Sprint Burst would make it even tougher to get to them by increasing the distance gained to 15.2, Lithe would allow them to outrun you with ease by waiting until you get close to them and then vaulting a window, and Balanced Landing has the same effect as Lithe except you’d need to camp a place to fall from instead.
Moreover, even without Lithe, vaults are very powerful against the Legion. Let’s say the Survivor vaults over the window in a pallet-window jungle gym (since that’s where most windows are situated) after you have chased them for 5 seconds. At this point, you have 7 seconds of your power left, and there is 5 meters of distance between you and the Survivor. It would take 3.125 seconds to get to the Survivor had they not vaulted, but they did indeed press the space bar, so now you have an obstacle in your way.
You can’t mindgame the Survivor because they can see you through the window and around the corners of the wall and will mindgame right back, so you have to force it. You take approximately 0.9 seconds to get to the point where they vaulted, and then another 0.9 seconds to vault it, for a total of 1.8 seconds of your power. Assuming the Survivor ran straight forward, you would close 1.44 meters between you and them in the time it took to approach the vault, but they would gain 3.6 meters on you in the time it took for you to actually vault, so they end up gaining 2.16 meters on you. Since they vaulted when you were 5 meters away, that means they are now 7.16 meters away from you, and you have 5.2 seconds of your power left. It would take 4.475 seconds to catch up to them now, so you should be clear, right? Not really, because that’s just a Survivor running forward, ignoring any more pallets, windows, or jungle gyms they might run into—which, given the placement of vaults either tends to be either near a pallet or just outright facilitating one, they most likely will. They could just as easily find another vault or pallet and force you to circumnavigate it once again—except now, you don’t have 7 seconds of your power; you have 1 or 2. So you just lose it and end up chaining no hits, ultimately ending up in failure once more.
You might think at that point that this was the Survivor outskilling and outplaying the Legion, but the problem with that that statement is, the Survivor did not do anything special to trick or juke the Legion. They did not dodge a hit. They did not confuse the Legion. They did not mindgame. All they did was run straight forward and occasionally vault. That’s it. And they still shut down the Legion’s entire power. They didn’t do anything except barrel forward, and there was still nothing the Legion could do.
And this is an extremely generous scenario, in my opinion, simply because most Survivors will see the Legion before they are even within his Terror Radius, let alone when he is within 8 meters of them, unless the map is something like Shelter Woods or Yamaoka.
That doesn't even include the second Survivor hiding in a locker while you were chasing someone else or having Distortion equipped—counters you knowingly implemented into this rework.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/603906#Comment_603906
ANYTHING can be balanced with the right Numbers. You just need to actually work through it.
This is why I try to avoid variables when describing an idea. Instead of just assuming that a specific number is fine, I actually calculate which numbers to use.
For example 5.6 M/S is needed to help make up for the 1 second self stun. Because part of the whole point of doing this it doesn't COMPLETELY make up for it (he gains 1 extra meter) but it means it's a reasonable 6.6 meters gained on the survivor (which means you would get pretty close to a survivor before using it). Old legion was 7.68 meters btw.
If you wanted to make it completely cancel out btw you would want a speed of 5.78 M/S. But the idea here was to make it so you'd need to be close to hit the first Survivor but that additional survivors could be relatively far away (19.2 meters to be exact).
For example if you walk up to Survivors working on a generator within 5 meters (probably with M&A) and activate Frenzy, and they both start running in opposite directions. The first survivor you will hit in 5 seconds no problem, the second survivor you will barely hit using a lunge.
So, you basically just admitted that Feral Frenzy’s hit-chaining capabilities are still weak with your rework, further nerfing any pressure he may have in exchange for a more “lethal” four-hit-down power.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/606683#Comment_606683
It all comes down to math.
Right now while vaulting Legions power depletion is paused. A 15% drain is simply what would happen if there was no pause.
The ability is deliberately hard to hit because the reward for doing so is far higher than in the current iteration or even the initial iteration. Using it and then canceling for example can easily lead to a 10 second chase from healthy.
The mending time is mostly because no one likes mending and thus making it as short as we can afford to is good, the power (due to the shorter cooldown among other things) is much more lethal and has utility in being a whispers lite. So having mending take too long in addition to that is too much.
That being said don't underestimate the presence of skill checks. It means that the Legion can approach someone mending more easily letting him take advantage of the brief moment of vulnerability in one way or another.
It can also drain faster.
“The ability is deliberately hard to hit because the reward for doing so is far higher than in the current iteration or even the initial iteration.”
No, the reward is lower because you get even less stall and the shorter fatigue won’t matter if a loop is nearby.
”The mending time is mostly because no one likes mending and thus making it as short as we can afford to is good”
Who cares if nobody likes mending? Nobody likes getting caught in a bear trap. Nobody likes being vomited on and getting injured without being hit. Nobody likes Madness III. Yet at the same time, nobody in their right mind is asking for those garbage abilities to be nerfed. Taking 15 seconds to mend is not a big deal; if you don’t like it, get over yourself.
”the power (due to the shorter cooldown among other things) is much more lethal”
Except you nerfed its lethality by giving it even more counterplay in the form of pressing the space bar at loops, which already hard-counters it as is. And, again, I will repeat: No matter how “lethal” his power is, it’s still not lethal enough to make up for Legion’s complete and utter lack of stall and map pressure—something you nerfed even further in this rework.
“has utility in being a whispers lite.”
By changing Killer Instinct to auras, you are changing it from a tracking function that will always reveal nearby Survivors to a tracking function that has ways of being blocked or hidden by the Survivors, so you’re actually giving it less utility.
”So having mending take too long in addition to that is too much.”
15 seconds is not a long time. It takes more time to heal somebody.
”That being said don't underestimate the presence of skill checks. It means that the Legion can approach someone mending more easily letting him take advantage of the brief moment of vulnerability in one way or another.”
- They're not any more vulnerable sitting still to mend than they are sitting still to mend with skill checks.
- Are you aware of how easy great skill checks are to hit? A 10-second action does not need those.
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@NullSp3c said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/605795#Comment_605795
What do you mean it doesn't give stall potential?
He can reach multiple people easier with the changes, so everyone is injured and mending. The guy you're chasing after hitting other people can be downed by 2 ways:
The one that i described above( that is powerful imo)
And if you cancel frenzy you receive a shorter cooldown than normal, making it more lethal and it can end chases fast.
This basically gives legion multiple ways to achieve it's purpose: stall the game and kill people.
The problem is, your proposed rework has three ungodly terrible changes that will utterly destroy Legion’s ability to chain hits:
- Losing 15% of your Frenzy when vaulting a pallet or window, making the chaining-hits aspect of Frenzy even more heavily countered by pallets and windows than it is right now.
- Killer Instinct becoming aura-based, allowing Survivors to use aura-canceling abilities to hide themselves from the Legion and avoid being found during a Frenzy.
- Deep Wound’s pathetically short 15-second mend time being reduced even further, down to 10 seconds.
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I groan whenever someone thinks the new maps are better for Killers, then proceed to run a Killer around the completely safe side of car loops for 30 seconds as well as camp the multiple god pallets inside of the buildings.
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@Ember_Hunter said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/605820#Comment_605820
Thanks XD
Oh wait, reminds me:
I fixed one of your old memes to be more accurate!
I didn’t make this meme
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@NullSp3c Moreover, I've looked over the thread you linked, and the proposed rework nerfs Feral Frenzy's ability to apply stall and pressure—the exact thing Legion needs. It doesn't matter if he can use a mediocre Frenzy to down a Survivor; that won't stop the other three from doing generators.
Which do you think is more fun: Going stabby-stabby with very little thought and effort and having your generators done immediately, or actually having to M1 but being able to last longer than 5 seconds before the gates get opened?
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@NullSp3c said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/605090#Comment_605090
If you run around it, the survivor can vault back. If you break the pallet, it gives the survivor time to run. frenzy only lasts 6 seconds, it is almost nothing. The idea is to have a 0.75 sec cast time which gives the survivor 3 more meters to run.
These are the best cases where the survivor has no window or other pallet to run to.
Mindgames? Unlucky pallet spawns? Windows?
Unless it's one of those perfectly safe and literally unmindgameable pallets, you can get a Frenzy hit off without needing much effort, regardless of vaulting.
And even if there was counterplay, the strength of stabby-stabby just becomes even more nonexistent then. Not having counterplay was the literal only reason that Frenzy was good for chases; the fact you need to hit someone four times would completely nullify its strength if it were to become counterable.
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@Peasant said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/603576#Comment_603576
You seemed thoroughly upset about posting your rework in the wrong thread, but couldn't you just copy and paste it into the correct thread?
That wouldn’t change the fact that I posted it in the wrong thread
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@NullSp3c said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/603906#Comment_603906
I played legion the exact same way as you did before the patch. I only used feral frenzy to down someone when that someone was the last one on the trial and i knew where the hatch was.
Now that i think of it, it is fun to stabby stabby to down someone. The problem with that is that you could vault everything. If you can't vault pallets when you're not with killer instinct active, the stabby stabby mechanic becomes counterable. His power being lethal doesn't mean overpowered if you chose correctly how it works. Just see the post that i linked and go tell there what you think about the idea. I mained legion too, and still main so I completely know what you're talking about when you say that you played legion the "right way". Maybe the right way was to also kill people with your power but it lacked counterplay back then. Now i lost my will to play legion because he is unfun and i don't like the other killers that much.
“If you can't vault pallets when you're not with killer instinct active, the stabby stabby mechanic becomes counterable.”
... No, it doesn’t. Just wait for Frenzy to recharge and then run around it. Or, better yet, just break the pallet.
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@Ember_Hunter said:
Wouod missed attack consequences and power gauge decreased by normal attacks still apply?
You'd go into fatigue, but you wouldn't instantly deplete the rest of your power gauge.
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@Avilgus said:
Good ideas with logical argumentation (except for the action penalties that are too high), some people should take example.
How are the action speed penalties too high? Stage 2 of Deep Wound applies less than 9 extra seconds to a generator and less than 2 extra seconds to healing. Considering the current meta is never healing, you’ll get more use out of Thanatophobia—a Perk with a very weak and ineffective slowdown.
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@laplace said:
I love this idea for the legion. However for deep wound I think it would be a drag to have to rework an entire status effect. Instead I think the deep wound should last like 20 or so seconds and should still drain even during a chase, but not as fast. And to counter spamming, hitting the survivor twice with FF will cause the power to have to fully recharge in order to be used again. Basically we can go with the 1/4 of the bar to activate it, but hitting the same survivor twice in a row will empty FF and it will require a full bar to activate again. I think only then we will have a proper legion.
Deep Wound is vastly superior as a pressure power than a chase power, and no matter how you change it, being able to use Feral Frenzy and Deep Wound to literally guarantee a chase is neither fair nor balanced. It doesn't matter if reworking Deep Wound is a "drag" or not; in order to make this utterly terribly-designed status effect worthwhile, you need to put work into redesigning it.
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@NullSp3c said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/603606#Comment_603606
BHVR gave legion 110% ms because he should be power dependant. His power was supposed to be used on chases like all the killers that have slower movement speed. I think this was the right way to put legion. It is like it conserves his difference from the other killers, being a guy that hits multiple survivors but is also very fast at chases with the cost of needing to hit multiple times to down someone. With the link i gave you, his chases would have counterplay and he would benefit more than before when using feral frenzy to down someone or to chain hits.
Legion got from 4.4ms to 4.6ms because he needed an increase in lethality. You can make his power lethal with a lot of counterplay, effectiveness and enjoyment to both sides. Basically make his power able to do things that wasn't able when it has killer instinct active. For example: when triggering killer instinct, the power drains at half speed and legion can vault pallets. When out of killer instinct (simply pressing the button) he can destroy pallets x% faster, being x a number that behaviour thinks is fair. This way his power is better when you're after multiple survivors but gives you utility when downing someone. Gives counterplay to the survivor when going to a pallet.
The deep wounds solution is on the post but it is a lot to say.
I think the main problem with legion atm, from what i've seen and experience when i play him, is that he is very unfun and underwhelming. The unfun part is the worst one because, as a lot of people that were legion mains before that horrible patch, we prefer that legion is kinda weak but fun to play ( this doesn't mean that we don't want him strong). He got more unfun and underwhelming with the patch.
People who dc vs legion i kinda understand them but not totally. There were ways to counter him when he was trying to down you but it was just a matter of time for him to down because there was nowhere safe. Still... disconnecting is punisheable, and thx bhvr that it is.
High terror radius doesn't help, his short stature is a double-edged blade because it also makes survivors harder to detect and easier to lose.
Hillbilly is loopable but he only needs 1 hit to down you, has a lot of pressure and few downsides. His skillcap is ginormous.
The visual obstruction of deep wounds is just bad. Almost doesn't obstruct their vision and doesn't threaten them at all. Wow, your screen becomes very slightly black and whiteish and sometimes comes a drop of blood on the screen. Even if it would cause visual obstruction, that isn't the purpose of deep wounds, unless he stabbed you in the eye. JK. But deep wounds was made to down survivors that are bleeding internally. I think that should stay as it is.
I'm sorry, but I just disagree as a whole with your philosophy regarding Legion at his bare fundamentals. There's no way a power like Feral Frenzy can be fair and balanced if it can achieve downs. It's pure fantasy. Legion is fine as an M1 Killer; his short stature is not a double-edged sword unless you struggle to track Survivors and the Deep Wound VFX pay dividends (mostly back before the nerf), I can assure you. Keep in mind, I did well as an M1 Legion back when his base movement speed was slower. If I can M1 at 110 speed, then you can do it at 115.
Besides, even if it were good at chasing, that matters little if the Legion has no stall, because genrushing is simply too powerful of a strategy. Feral Frenzy works best as a pressure tool, not a chase tool.
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Faceghost
Ever since he came out, the only time I've played any other Killer is either for a daily or for YouTube content.
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@NullSp3c said:
The stat part I would change some numbers but they are more or less the olde numbers so it's good.
The idea of Deep Wounds seems cool but i have a problem with it. Feral Frenzy isn't still lethal and makes legion still a m1 loopable unfun killer. It makes survivors constantly mend and it would make more people disconnect than pre patch legion.
I think the idea is good but not for deep wounds and it doesn't solve legion's problems. This idea would be better for plague's sickness imo. Solves the "no cleansing" problem.
""The idea of Deep Wounds seems cool but i have a problem with it. Feral Frenzy isn't still lethal and makes legion still a m1 loopable unfun killer"
I honestly don't understand what the whole gripe with having to M1 is. i get it can be frustrating with the way loops are designed, but if being an M1 Killer were ultimately that bad, then why does everyone rate Billy as top tier? The way people talk, you'd think his map pressure would be outweighed by the sin of being an M1 Killer.
Also, between his short stature and the visual obstruction of Deep Wound's VFX, I would say that Legion has the best M1 mindgames in the game—the first, of course, being Faceghost. Add on to this Legion I came up with and you have the slower vaults and further visual Deep Wound obstruction caused by stage 3, and him being an M1 Killer should be fine.
Keep in mind, I played old Legion at red ranks and used Frenzy the way new Legion is forced to use it—I chained injuries and applied Deep Wound for pressure and stall, and refused to use Feral Frenzy as a tool for securing downs. This means I was, quite truly, a 110 M1 Killer. And I nonetheless consistently got 3k's and 4k's in my games.
"It makes survivors constantly mend and it would make more people disconnect than pre patch legion."
I already addressed why they would be far from "constantly" mending; Survivors who DC against this iteration of the Legion are just entitled brats and probably the same people who DC against current Legion.
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@FreddysMixTape said:
Just about anything would be better than the current version of Legion.
That being said, I actually quite like this idea. It fixes most, if not all of my issues with the rework and the suggested version of Deep Wounds sounds like an actual debuff rather than just a mild inconvenience like they are at the moment.
One thing that I've been wondering though is, considering that Borrowed Time also applies Deep Wounds, would it then apply this version of Deep Wounds or do you feel like the perk should apply a new status effect akin to the current version of Deep Wounds or perhaps even just put survivors on a timer like it used to? I feel like it would be kinda strange for BT to not put you on any sort of timer that results in going down if not attended to.
I'd be totally fine with BT receiving its old effects, just so that Legion's sole reason for existing isn't buffing Borrowed Time.
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@Peasant said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/602873#Comment_602873
"And he copied and pasted and he saw that it was good."
what
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A very stupid thing I did just now is accidentally posting my Legion update idea in Bug Reports.
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@Rizzo90 I did not mean to post this in bug reports; my apologies for clogging up this section with the wrong thread.
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@Awakey said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/602013#Comment_602013
Whoa there, Spirit takes skill!
Not to derail the thread, but she does.
I used to think Wraith was OP, and Adrenaline sucked.
"Man, she's so hard guys, I have to use my ears instead of my eyes!"
"Wait, what's that? You can still use your eyes because the indications Survivors leave become much more visible when they themselves aren't?"
"..."
"I have to use my ears instead of my eyes, guys! Come on! Spirit is haaaaard!"
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He's bad because his power has a net value of 0 at best and is a net loss at worst.
He can't patrol with it because the fatigue removes all mobility.
He can't chain hits because he barely moves faster and is hard-countered by a myriad of things, including exhaustion perks, pallets, and just not being bunched up.
He can't stall because Deep Wound is a joke and takes 15 seconds to mend at max, assuming you don't sit in his 32-meter heartbeat to ignore the timer.
Want to use your power as a free first hit? Enjoy your free Decisive Strike stun and headache-inducing tunnel vision while any Killer with mobility or stealth is better at getting free first hits than you are.
With Legion's power, one of two things happens:
1) You try to chain hits or use your Killer Instinct for any sort of pressure, only to realize that if the Survivor is more than 10 meters away (yes, I did the math), you can't catch them. You then go into your fatigue and receive a net loss for using your power, because in the time it took you to finish your Frenzy only to still be miles away from the Survivor you were trying to get to, the first Survivor you ran away from has a 95% chance of being fully mended and on a generator. In short: You get punished for using your power.
2) You use it for a free first hit and then go into a Decisive Strike stun with seizure-inducing tunnel vision, wishing you'd just played Wraith instead.
Overall: Not very good.
Keep in mind, I played old Legion the way new Legion is forced to be played. Meaning, I used Frenzy to chain hits and apply stall using Deep Wound, and outright refused to use it as a tool for winning chases. Also meaning, I was a 110 M1 Killer.
And I still think these changes were a nerf.
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My favorite build is switching to Ghostface.
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Opinions I used to have?
-I used to think Pig was terrible.
-I used to think the Legion change was a buff.
-I used to think that Spirit required a lot of skill.
-I used to think that Breakdown was OP.
-I used to think that Deliverance was a weak Perk.
-i used to think Diversion was Adam's strongest Perk.
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I've done almost nothing but exclusively play Faceghost since he came out, and let me tell you something: His stealth has a skill cap. You need to learn pathing that takes you down more roundabout routes towards wherever the Survivors are, including taking detours around open areas. Sure, it might mess with your map pressure a bit, but it allows you to both approach and stalk from locations that the Survivors would not expect. And if you know how to be creative and look for the lean prompt, you can peek out from just about anywhere, letting you both avoid detection and get crazy fast stalk.
I'm going to sound like a total Survivor crybaby by saying this, but I genuinely feel it's the truth: He's a great Killer and most who have trouble with avoiding detection or getting marks just need to learn to play him more effectively. You need to learn to identify the paths that give you the most cover, even if that includes using your crouch and slowing yourself down as you approach. You need to learn the ins and outs of what he can stalk both through and around. You need to learn the best positions to stalk from.
You need to learn to use his kit.
He has a lot of utility to his stealth in that sneaking and that stalking. You just need to learn how to effectively apply it. People say he's just a worse Myers, but in my experience, he's got so much more utility and consistency to his power than Myers could ever dream of—the only thing Myers has over Faceghost is snowball potential; for everything else—basic chase, mindgames, stealth, map pressure—Faceghost is the undisputed winner in my eyes.
Avoiding detection is a matter of pathing and a matter of positioning. Figure the two out, and you'll be getting a LOT more marks than you did before.
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Is it bad that I thought by "crossplay" you meant guys cosplaying as female Killers and vice versa
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@SkeletalElite said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/597509#Comment_597509
There is no safe side though, the other side is just useless, if both sides were like the short side thats whats called a god awful pallet and its worthless. If both sides are short, all the killer has to do is respect the pallet and they'll get the hit every time because if the survivor drops the pallet they can walk around either side and hit them.
There is a safe (pronounced: utterly unmindgameable) side to most, if not all, of new Badham’s pallets, and the “unsafe” side is still long enough that using the strategy you provided does not at all guarantee a free hit.
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"The pallets aren't meant to be free hits after they've been dropped if you refuse to kick it. You have the option of mindgaming now but you have to actually win those mind games"
The thing is, you literally can't mindgame it if they approach it from the safe side until they drop it—which will take a while if they run the safe side. The loops are still just as strong as they were before, and now there's more of them.
"The two story is NOT safer for survivors. Its only still safe if youre running BL since you can drop down the stair case at the end now."
I guess vaults with little to no mindgame or circumnavigation are unsafe?
"Not sure which god pallets youre talking about. If its the basement ones then that I can concede on."
The one in the house that can't be mindgamed, the ones in the preschool and the boiler room that can't be mindgamed, the ones in the two-story building that can't be mindgamed... honestly, what else could they be?
"Only thing I really have to say is not every pallet should be unsafe, the maps should have SOME stronger pallets."
No. My definition of a "safe" pallet is a pallet in which the Survivor does not need to mindgame and outplay an M1 Killer to effectively use it—they can just run around it and the Killer has no method of counterplay. There were a lot of those in Badham, and there are even more now. Every pallet should require skill for the Killer to get a hit on, yes, but every pallet should also require skill from the Survivor to not get hit. As it stands, most of the Badham pallets still don't require any skill or mindgaming from the Survivor to avoid the hit. They don't need to "outplay" the Killer; they just need to run in a circle and then press space when the Killer gets too close.
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@DaS_only said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/596832#Comment_596832
How can u run around in a straight line? Doesn't make sense lol
Man, picking at my speech. What a fun, additive, and insightful response.
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@NoShinyPony said:
I agree that chases are the fun part in DbD. They are the magic ingredient that make DbD so successful compared to the other games in this genre.
Chases where you are given the opportunity to outsmart your opponent and must utilize your movement and wits to win are fun.
Chases where all both parties do is hold W in a straight line because they're running around a pallet or window that literally cannot be circumnavigated and won't let you try to outplay them is not.
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