NarkoTri1er
NarkoTri1er
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are we talking about actual high skill and 0 perk/item/addon restrictions on each side? Survivor wins most of the time
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first 5 perks being on this list is kinda like pointing out you are baiting
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the matches you described would end the same no matter if basekit mori was implemented or not. The very cringe about basekit mori is actually slugging 4th survivor out while 3rd is hanging on hook even when you literally have a hook nearby (i hate it too)
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this is the same question like if you'd asked Riot why is it still objective to destroy lane turrets, inhib turrets, nexus turrets and nexus. It's simply a core win related mechanic of the game
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@Klavatoo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3890488#Comment_3890488
wouldn’t adding a ping threshold be a simple fix? You can’t switch to a server you have over 90 ping on etc
it was a bit of a joke, but with ExitLag you can reduce your ping by around ~20-30, which would somehow bypass ping threshold
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EU players with ExitLag about to switch to NA servers for easy matches, definitely a good idea lel
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3890250#Comment_3890250
If you're chasing a survivor who's been unhooked in the last 60 seconds, that's not DS being put to aggressive use, it's just being put to use. You just consider it 'aggressive' use because the survivor doesn't let you freely cancel the perk out.
ohh, so now there is no such thing as aghressive DS use?
Crazy how first you act like using anti-tunneling perks aggressively is literally a bad way to use them and then act like using them aggressively is simply...getting value out of them? Like c'mon, decide your opinion on it
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3890250#Comment_3890250
I simply cannot wrap my head around this idea that you wouldn't know the user has DS and identify that this is what's going on.
Do you not remember the survivor who just got off the hook? Are you so excited for an "easy down" that you forget there might be a reason they want you to go after them?
The last time I got hit by DS was about 3 years ago, before 6.1 when DS was much more powerful. And it was a conscious decision on my part because the survivor was so aggressive it was obvious he had the perk and clear that he felt he was invincible because of it. So I played into it intentionally to turn off the perk, and stop him being annoying. I didn't give him the attention he desperately wanted (I continued my intended chase) and he didn't bother me the rest of the match.
Every time since then, I just leave people on the ground to rethink their life decisions. This, btw, is one of those "valid, situational slugging" scenarios that I talk about.
The idea that you would switch targets in this situation and let the survivor lead you to a locker is just you playing into an obvious trap. The survivors don't choose who the killer chases. Last I checked they didn't carry lockers around with them either.
You even know it's a trap, at least on paper. So the only reason this would ever work is if you couldn't identify the situation in game, which is the definition of game sense.
I simply cannot wrap my head around this idea that you wouldn't know the user has DS and identify that this is what's going on.
did you even read my whole post at all?
Do you not remember the survivor who just got off the hook? Are you so excited for an "easy down" that you forget there might be a reason they want you to go after them?
do you not remember that survivor who just got off hook is actively trying to deny you hitting the unhooker and literally forcing you to hit them in order to buy some time for unhooker to get to a safe tile?
Do you not remember that exactly the unhooked survivor might take a hit, be down and force you into a lose-lose situation, which is either proceeding to chase unhooker who has additional health state unhooked survivor used for them and having that downed DS owner self-pickup with e.g. UB?
The last time I got hit by DS was about 3 years ago, before 6.1 when DS was much more powerful. And it was a conscious decision on my part because the survivor was so aggressive it was obvious he had the perk and clear that he felt he was invincible because of it. So I played into it intentionally to turn off the perk, and stop him being annoying. I didn't give him the attention he desperately wanted (I continued my intended chase) and he didn't bother me the rest of the match.
so, you really think only value you get out of DS is if killer picks you up, you succeed that difficult skillcheck and get off their shoulders instantly? Did you never think about indirect value of it that doesn't come by just managing to proc it? Time to check again why are self pickup antislug perks used in combo with DS.
Every time since then, I just leave people on the ground to rethink their life decisions. This, btw, is one of those "valid, situational slugging" scenarios that I talk about.
literally what i described above. Congrats, you underwent a lose-lose situation.
The idea that you would switch targets in this situation and let the survivor lead you to a locker is just you playing into an obvious trap. The survivors don't choose who the killer chases. Last I checked they didn't carry lockers around with them either.
survivors control the chase. Survivors literally control direction of the chase, killer can only do it on edge-map tiles (unless it's a ranged or powerful zoning killer like Huntress that fakes M2 to zone you off, but even then you are still in quote a big part of it's control).
And again, lockers, slugging DS user, picking them up, literally it's all a situation where your time is literally being wasted, is that so difficult to understand?
You even know it's a trap, at least on paper. So the only reason this would ever work is if you couldn't identify the situation in game, which is the definition of game sense.
you know what game sense also is? Not constantly ignoring the fact that person that has DS can pick themselves up OR have someone else pick them up while unhooker or whatever surv they bodyblocked for has +1 health state they received by downed DS user that will receive that lose health state quickly again.
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Corrupt, Gift of Pain, Eruption and Grim (Oni)
Corrupt basically to prevent survs from easy early gen splitting.
Gift of Pain to keep em more injured and some small slowdown.
Eruption and Grim for obvious gen protection.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3890217#Comment_3890217
>DS
>Better for aggressive purposes
>"Hiding in a locker forces a lose-lose situation"
*Aggressively hides in locker
i understand that concept of forcing chase as the unhooked player due to having DS to get value out of it for your teammate as a way of aggressive usage of your anti-tunneling perk is hard to grasp for a casual player, but there is always time to learn something new yk instead of acting like there is no value in DS just because you never heard of the term forcing a grab when you know you are about to get downed during a chase :)
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3890148#Comment_3890148
>DS
>Better for aggressive purposes
*Menacingly slug-crawls towards the killer, intimidating him into dropping a survivor.while DS works far better in combinations with other perks (Unbreakable, Plot Twist and other anti-slug perks to counter killer slugging your DS out).
just in case you didn't see, bringing anti-slug perk together with it literally forces killer into a lose-lose situation, while forcing locker is even better way to also force killsr into guaranteed lose-lose situation where they'd eat DS up by locker grab or you'd be free to go when they leave locker because they don't want to eat it.
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it's an very strong perk that is heavily underrated by community because people don't understand the general value of greeding people on hook in so many different cases other than camping.
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both are very good perks, but OTR excels because it has more built-in stuff and works better on it's own, while DS works far better in combinations with other perks (Unbreakable, Plot Twist and other anti-slug perks to counter killer slugging your DS out).
Overall, i would rate OTR as a better pure anti-tunneling perk while DS would be a better perk for aggressive purposes (in combo with an anti-slug perk recommended)
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I think a lot of players, on both sides, have complaints about balancing changes, because they dont realize they have been MMR boosted and facing opponents they shouldnt have been able to face in the first place. I'm taking killer specifically for this post due to current changes affecting them the most, but its also true for survivors when medkits were being changed, or when MFT got changed (people saying they now needed to genrush to compete with the killers they were facing, like, duh, you boosted yourself and now you have to deal with the consequences of that).
well, there are way too many players like that, you can find them all the way on dbdtwt, dbdtok, Reddit and also here.
The big problem with dbd community is that majority of players who don't really have necessary game knowledge are very confident in engaging balance discussions simply because they are some "high MMR" when in fact they aren't aware how awful matchmaking is and that losing often when at soft MMR cap does mainly mean you are underperforming.
Think about it, for killers claiming that its impossible to win without slugging, in the past 4 years the following things happened:
Gens have been increased by 10 seconds.
Mapsizes have been reduced.
Basekit generator kicking applies 5% damage and the gen keeps regressing untill the survivor fixed the 5%.
Chase related interactions are 10% shorter for killers, and survivors received a 10% nerf in boost duration.
DS has been nerfed to a point its rarely being used.
Killers in general have been upped in strength.
Less pallets on average.
Less windows on average.
More hooks per square meter of map so less time carrying survivors to hooks.
here we come up to a problem.
Gen speed increase is a very welcome feature, but the fact that toolboxes and BNPs are still at their current state, along with perks that are truly what we can call genrush (Hyperfocus+Stake Out for example) is quite problematic thing.
Some maps have been absolutely obliterated, like Haddonfield and Borgo, but other than that, no significant changes have been done to maps.
Basekit gen kick yea, but at the cost of 8 events limit. Not that the change is bad, but with some perks/addons you can reach regression event limit very fast (e.g. Eruption).
Chase related interaction are still very strong for surv.
DS was still strong at 3s (exception for Nurse, Billy and Blight, and even though there were suggestions that would make this perk much better against them while not punishing already weak killers more than it already was, majority of the community won).
Yes, killers have been upped in strength as an attempt to keep up with surv strength, but big majority still can't keep up with surv metas at all.
Less pallets on few maps.
Less windows on few maps.
More hooks doesn't really matter when hooks are already more beneficial for survs than they are for killers + sabo was rebuffed, bringing back the most unhealthy kind of gamepplay on surv side back.
And sure, BT has been made basekit, sure, hook timers have been increased by 10 seconds. But how often does basekit BT actually trigger unless you tunnel? How often do survivors stay on hook for longer than 60 seconds?
i mean, basekit BT is an anti-tunnel + hit tanking feature for aggressive usage (along with OTR). Regarding survs staying on hook, people just don't wanna greed anyone on hook don't know the actual benefits of keeping surv on a hook a bit longer in any case, so that's why it isn't very present nowadays.
All in all, the game should have been easier for killers in general to the point where they didnt need to rely on slugging, tunnelling and 4 gen regression perks. But yet people did. And now they face survivors who are basically out of their league to the point that they have to keep relying on the things that boosted them to those brackets in the first place.
great problem with tunneling is that majority of killers simply don't stand a single chance without a 3v1 asap, and even that strategy heavily punished by more and more additions that not only counter it, but also any hooking order other than fresh 12-hooking. Majority of killers still can't 12-hook because of so many features and perks triggering off hook and 12-hooking also being a biggest waste of time as killer. The very point of playing of surv nowadays in terms of hooks is forcing killer to spread hooks as much as possible.
Slugging is basically optimal play nowadays in order to avoid on and off-hook triggering mechanics and perks. Also, it is basically implemented into basekit of killers like Oni, Twins, Plague and Myers.
What actually is a big problem with average killer player is that they don't know how, when and where to tunnel, slug or camp. They will just be focused to use those strats 24/7 no matter what and exactly that will make them lose their matches against any at least a bit competent team.
And while I think there are some valid points, I am also 100% convinced that the vast majority of players have accidentally MMR boosted themselves and now simply have to deal with the consequences until their MMR lowers to more realistic numbers.
this is the well known case on both sides and it's funny that, even though people have pumped their MMR up, due to soft cap being too low, they will always be at the very mid level in terms of skill. That's why we always hear well knowns:
TUNNELING/SLUGGING/CAMPING OP
GENRUSHING/FLASHLIGHTS OP.
With the current state of MMR, you can literally have a very high winrate no matter which side you play if you have enough skill, because once you reach soft cap, average skill of your opponent(s) will stagnate. That saying, MMR is almost a nonexistent thing atm.
The game has objectively been getting easier for killers, yet you claim its harder than ever. Then maybe the conclusion should be that you're facing opponents that are out of your league.
the game has also been objectively been getting easier for survs too, yet they also claim it's harder than ever. Strongest tools to counter camping, tunneling and slugging ever and still, people fail to counter those + were playing against those way better when there were way less perks to counter them?
Not to mention constant giving up. For what? We all know 3v1 asap is very important for killer, why is tunneling so problematic also if survivors themselves induce that 3v1 even after…first chase?
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@Pit_Bull_Love said:
Pretty sure it's not just one person doing it
it's not even people, it's AI bots just programmed to queue into the match with cheats on and usually advertise cheats in postgame chat. They are getting banned sometimes when players actually report them, but there are way too many burner accounts for those for anticheat to rely purely on player reports.
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@XtremeDBD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3888764#Comment_3888764
Most survivors go down in dead zones and corner maps, wasting everything up to where they die. STB is terrible in solo queue, but also not good in SWFs either. Like i said, you're essentially taking a killer progress on one survivor and giving it to yourself, especially if you run aura perks like floods of rage after the unhook, your gonna catch them way before that timer finishes. You can also completely counter the perk with proxy camping or hard camping during the last few seconds of a hook stage. Its a terrible perk, ehich has so many people like me confused why people use it
no meta perk is good in the hands of average survivor due to having an actual skill floor in terms of macro tbh,that's why you don't see perks like Deli, Reassurance, StB, Wicked etc. not really having that big pickrate and success rate in matches.
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@XtremeDBD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3888710#Comment_3888710
Camaraderie now has the same visual effect as reassurance
And Deliverance is insane regardless of solo queue or not
tbh 40s Exposed + scream is way weak punishment for how strong this perk is, because let's be honest, even if killer engages into chase very soon after surv uses StB, timer will go off way before killer manages to land a basic attack onto StB carrier.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
I personally don't see enough value in the perk. Aside from the people who completely misunderstand how it works and think "it removes a hook stage" entirely from the game, it's completely overrated. It's, at best, incredibly niche.
Where exactly is the killer during this unhook?
If the killer is near the hook (camping, proxying), then you're just making yourself exposed, trading a hook state for no reason. You shouldn't even activate the perk, although this is likely the most common scenario when the killer is intent on tunneling.
If the killer is far enough away that it's safe to become exposed, what else are they doing? If they're in chase with another survivor, you don't need to use an anti tunnel perk here either.
So the only time this would come into play is if the killer goes far enough away, doesn't get into another chase (I guess kicks a gen?) and comes immediately back to hook to tunnel.
Then the killer has to also not have any idea that the only two perks that cause survivors to scream on unhook also expose the unhooker, and then further misplay into it by going after the injured unhooked survivor (presumably with endurance), instead of the instadown survivor who unhooked.
I just find that scenario to be completely unrealistic.
I personally don't see enough value in the perk. Aside from the people who completely misunderstand how it works and think "it removes a hook stage" entirely from the game, it's completely overrated. It's, at best, incredibly niche.
this is extreme understatement of the perk lol.
If the killer is near the hook (camping, proxying), then you're just making yourself exposed, trading a hook state for no reason. You shouldn't even activate the perk, although this is likely the most common scenario when the killer is intent on tunneling.
you as a StB carrier are NOT gonna be the one trading a hook against a camping killer asap because first traded hook will definitely end up with killer already wasting enough time for some gens to pop, you will use it later in the match, or even let a survivor spend almost 2 whole hook stages on the hook to give your team a massive benefit before using StB (good synergy with Reassurance btw)
If the killer is far enough away that it's safe to become exposed, what else are they doing? If they're in chase with another survivor, you don't need to use an anti tunnel perk here either.
StB is not just an anti-tunneling perk, is anti-any kind of hooking that isn't pure 12 hooking by putting everyone on fresh hooks before going for 2nd hooks. It literally wastes killer time no matter if they tunnel or not.
So the only time this would come into play is if the killer goes far enough away, doesn't get into another chase (I guess kicks a gen?) and comes immediately back to hook to tunnel.
wrong. This perk comes into use in many cases, only case where it actually serves no use is when killer slugs really, really hard, but either way, you'd definitely not finish as a 4-men slug if you have at least some game skill.
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dbd could be actually much better balanced, but there is a big problem with playerbase and who is actually used for sampling results for balance.
You can't expect to have nearly perfectly balanced game when so many players have casual game training and are constantly complaining about stuff that mostly comes as a result of their own mistakes.
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Nurse is currently only problematic in terms of synergy with aura reading perks, other than that, she's not as strong as Blight all the way since her blink attacks started counting as special attacks.
Billy is ok now.
Blight is still a top-tier butchering machine.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
Most of the community plays SoloQ and with how the perk is designed it mostly benefits SWF.
There is basically no way to guarantee that your random teammate doesnt die in 10 seconds after being unhooked, or what Ive mostly experienced, teammates half the time snag the unhook before you can even use STB, so you dont get value and your teammate dies easily.
this perk can actually be very beneficial in soloQ too, but with people basically griefing soloQ matches quite often, you can't get any proper value out of it there
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taking in mind how big part of dbd community is clueless about the game, downvotes will be used only to pump up ego when seeing some rational takes actually downvoted into oblivion
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ohh boy, we're in for a ride.
killer was wraith he found someone right off the bat (it was a Kate that info is going to be important) and I got on a gen as soon as he started chasing (like I'm supposed to) he downed her. Hooked her then blew up my gen with scourge hook as I keep working they get her off then he found someone else and blew up my gen again he used 3 scourge hooks on my gen by the time he got his fourth hook I was still working on my gen and Kate which was the fourth hook killed herself cuz she knew it was a lost cause
you are telling me Wraith managed to get 3 Pain Res pops by the time you were doing 1 gen? Those chases lasted how long, 10s each? Against Wraith, that's truly...idk what to tell you.
Skip to the next match it was against wesker and I happened to get in with that same Kate.. she was the first one to the hooked. After she got hooked he started chasing someone else and us both standing were on gens that were almost finished so the other survivor finished theirs after it popped he went to it to chase that survivor and Kate killed herself so I said to myself we're not making it so I killed myself
so Kate sold the match and you joined her.
The next match this time it's a chucky at first it's going pretty smooth 2 gens down by the time he gets one hook and that one hook happened to chain friends til the end and it went down hill from there
Chucky, a now C-tier killer, manages to snowball yall with no problems using FTTE after 2 gens have been finished with 0 problems?
I'm telling yall they are catering to the killer side
i'm telling you no, that's completely incorrect, the fact that currently all cases proved as fault of your team speaks for it.
Also just had a trapper slug 3 of us at 2 gens and moried me without me being hooked... like did they not realize people would still be toxic to get as many points as they can. adding the EGC mori just encouraged toxicity even more
Trapper manages to do that to you, now you should be seriously concerned about skill level of team you are playing in.
About the 6th or 8th match got hooked at 4 gens.. went with my rescuer to go heal but killer followed us hit me again hooked me. after i got unhooked I ran off to go do a gen. killer is chasing someone else but that same someone that only been hooked once ran him over to me therefore killer killed me (ik it wasn't my teammates fault but I was still very annoyed)
first part is literal mistake in decision making in terms of reset timing. Second one is literally fault of your teammate.
This is more of a rent then a point and srry about that I just need to get my frustration out as a solo survivor it's getting increasingly hard and sometimes unfair especially when you have people who say tunneling and slugging is fine because it's apart of the game when it's a problem no one has fun in that situation except the killer I can only hope the changes they announced will help at least a little bit
problem in general is mindset of soloQ players, people play for everything but to contribute to actual objective. Because of that, many ppl are giving up + adding oil up to the fire when they lose to a camper/tunneler slugger instead of looking back at their oen mistakes and learning from those.
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@ad19970 said:
Nerfing tunneling, slugging and camping in a signifcant way is the only way to really improve the game's health gameplay wise. These strategies are insanely unfun to go against, so they shouldn't be encouraged, not like they are now.
If these nerfs are done right, it will create a much better foundation for the game. And then, the killers that will start struggling too much, can definitely be buffed in more healthy ways as well. So I am very hopfeful that BHVR will implement proper anti-tunneling, anti-camping and anti-slugging changes to bring this game into a much better fundamental state.
this argument is literally on the level of BHVR's decision to completely destroy Skull Merchant as an attempt of damage control in order to actually make community go quiet on her until she gets properly reworked and rebuffed again (not soon lol), and is quite literally looking at the aspect of game health from quite an one-sided perspective.
These strategies are insanely unfun to go against, so they shouldn't be encouraged, not like they are now.
splitting gens is also very unfun to face, Boil Over and sabo strats are also very unfun to face, yet sabo was buffed for example.
If these nerfs are done right, it will create a much better foundation for the game. And then, the killers that will start struggling too much, can definitely be buffed in more healthy ways as well. So I am very hopfeful that BHVR will implement proper anti-tunneling, anti-camping and anti-slugging changes to bring this game into a much better fundamental state.
anti-camping, anti-tunneling and anti-slugging perks are insanely strong right now. There is no healthy way to nerf camping, tunneling and slugging at the moment because killer's main objective, hooking, is already on dead legs.
Doing any kind of straight up nerf and then waiting to see how things will go over time to see what buffs killers should receive as compensation is literally extremely irresponsible thing to do.
All pof these strats are still meta because average player has no intention to ever learn the counterplay. Do you think they would be so popular if people using them noticed it doesn't yield success to them nearly as often as they think it does? Of course not.
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instantly voted no lol
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@foolsparadise said:
it's funny how half the people on the forums are claiming these changes will be survivor sided and the other half are saying it'll be killer sided. just shows that many of you actually have no clue what you're talking about, and are once again blowing things out of proportion before anything is actually implemented.
personally I'm just gonna wait and see what happens. either what they're planning works out and people like the update, or it doesn't work out and they have to do something different. at least they're trying, at least they're somewhat listening, and even if that's the bare minimum, it's still a good thing and they should be given a chance to improve things. immediately tweaking over what you're assuming is going to happen is likely to just discourage them from making any major changes out of fear of backlash.
you guys are comically dramatic and it's impossible to take these kind of posts seriously. please stop with the victim mentality guys...this goes for both killer and survivor mains. bhvr is not aiming to cater to one side or the other, they're making changes to hopefully make the game more enjoyable for the playerbase as a whole. to me, this update actually seems pretty balanced in terms of how many changes each side is getting.
like c'mon, do y'all actually think that they're prioritizing one side over the other in a game where they need people to play both sides? you really believe this video game company, with one title they can truly call a major success, is catering to one side over the other? really guys? if you seriously believe that, then you're so entrenched in the stupid tribalism of this community that you've actually lost touch with reality.
i absolutely understand not having any faith in bhvr to implement these changes in a balanced, or even fully functional way, but at least give them a chance before freaking out like this. y'all want the game to change and improve, yet when presented with change you shoot it down and immediately start with this "aghhhh dbd is being destroyed aaahh dbd is dying the devs are garbage!!! the sky is falling!!!! the end times are upon us!!!!!" bullshit. mfs do this every time there's some sort of change to dbd, for once just sit back and observe. they're not just gonna drop these changes out of the blue, there will be testing and a ptb. if it truly ends up being that bad…then we can resume the doomposting.
tells you everything you need to know about dbd community. Even though i am seriously concerned for phase 2 and those anti things, everything else is literally just a QoL and RNG reduction we all desperately needed
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3887121#Comment_3887121
Considering other comp players on the forums have disagreed with you and explained why you're mistaken in separate threads why would @Firellius expect that you would listen to him (or not listen in this case) anymore than what you currently don't do if he did scrims?
i don't think watching DbDL tournaments from time to time marks you as a comp player
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3887040#Comment_3887040
V1rtual, a player for team Oracle, managed to get ~30 winstreak by playing M1 only perkless Trapper. Trapper gigabroken confirmed? Because that's what you are making it literally sound like.
I'm not saying they're broken. YOU are.
You, and so many other forum killers have been adamant that killer is unplayable without camping tunnelling and slugging, despite more competent players than you showing that it's not just playable, but strong. That you don't -need- any of these tactics that you keep insisting on.
And what's even more insulting?
i still manage to have decent winrate without tunneling and camping and only slug while in power to chain hits with Oni.
You even admit that you do not need this! You admit that you're doing perfectly fine without tunnelling, camping and slugging, so my question to you is:
Why even care about these announced changes?
Why is it that every time there's any kind of discussion about fixing these problems, you and people like you come in to balk and protest, when by your own admission, you don't need these strategies?
Because if that's true, these changes won't negatively impact you. That 'decent winrate' you manage without camping, tunnelling and slugging? That'll continue. That won't change. So why the constant protests?
Because to me, it sounds like you're going 'I'm doing fine, I'm doing well, but I want to reserve the right to win even more and ruin the game for others. My minor concerns are more important than the major problems that the other side has been dealing with for almost a decade now'.
I'm not saying they're broken. YOU are.
You, and so many other forum killers have been adamant that killer is unplayable without camping tunnelling and slugging, despite more competent players than you showing that it's not just playable, but strong. That you don't -need- any of these tactics that you keep insisting on.
And what's even more insulting?
many killers in this game conceptually stand no chance against a competent SWF because they are literally forced to tunnell, slug and camp, but they are being heavily punished for it overall, especially pure M1 killers.
You even admit that you do not need this! You admit that you're doing perfectly fine without tunnelling, camping and slugging, so my question to you is:
Why even care about these announced changes?
Why is it that every time there's any kind of discussion about fixing these problems, you and people like you come in to balk and protest, when by your own admission, you don't need these strategies?
Because if that's true, these changes won't negatively impact you. That 'decent winrate' you manage without camping, tunnelling and slugging? That'll continue. That won't change. So why the constant protests?
Because to me, it sounds like you're going 'I'm doing fine, I'm doing well, but I want to reserve the right to win even more and ruin the game for others. My minor concerns are more important than the major problems that the other side has been dealing with for almost a decade now'.
skill difference, skill difference, skill difference!!!
After i've hit soft cap, my skill kept improving because i was practising the game in an environment separated from pub matches, while my opponents were stagnant in terms of skill. And by playing with no tunneling + no camping challenge, i am giving my opponents a literal headstart. Would i ever avoid doing any of that if i actually had perfect opportunity to utilize those and win the match against someone on my skill level? Absolutely no, and you are constantly avoiding the very fact that skill difference is why people who do these streaks manage to consistently win.
I've never said game is impossible with these, i was always saying there was never a proper incentive for killers to actually not slug, camp and tunnel to win, but there is plethora of counters to it people are straight up refusing to learn how to use.
So it's really time to stop trying to accuse anyone of being bad at the game because they won through tunneling, camping and slugging. You are far worse than them because you have such strong tools to make those strats close to worthless in 90% of cases, and yet you refuse to learn how to utilize them better.
And if you actually want to look at the game from the perspective you are trying to look from, but are constantly failing, you should seriously enlist for some scrims and comp DbD in general to get a huge reality check
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3887005#Comment_3887005
Hens has been practising the game excessively hard and has a lot of hours in it, meaning he mastered so many macro and micro aspects of the game.
I find it ironic that the guy that claims survivors refuse to improve is willing to dismiss Hens because 'he's too skilled'.
Now, since you are expecting average killer to learn the game as much as Hens learned in order to take advantage of as many survivor mistakes as possible, why don't we try to make this a vice versa situation?
Wrong.
Because remember, Hens didn't only go well over the balancing benchmark by getting an excessively high killrate/winrate, he also didn't use any killer powers, which are two colossal steps you don't have to match him on.
why does average survivor player not even attempt to learn how to counter those?
These counters being 'genrush' (but not actually genrush because that's unfair to killer), 'swiffer' (But not actually swiffer because that's unfair to killer) and 'loop killer for 5 gens'.
Why is only killer expected to learn to play the game on a top tier level so that they don't have to tunnel, camp and slug in order to win against average pub opponents?
Again, this 'top tier' level you're talking about doesn't net you a balanced experience, it nets you a 90% winrate with an arm tied behind your back. If you equate that with 'what is needed to win against pub opponents', then that speaks volumes about what your balancing benchmark is.
You were accusing others of refusing to improve, but you balk at the idea of having to play without these crutches because of a dogmatic belief that killer is unplayable without tunnelling/camping/slugging, to the point where you won't even try. And the moment someone sets before you the possibility that -you- may need to improve for once, it's anchors out.
I find it ironic that the guy that claims survivors refuse to improve is willing to dismiss Hens because 'he's too skilled'.
who exactly is dismissing Hens here? He is showing how awful MMR system is and how exactly am i dismissing that?
Wrong.
Because remember, Hens didn't only go well over the balancing benchmark by getting an excessively high killrate/winrate, he also didn't use any killer powers, which are two colossal steps you don't have to match him on.
V1rtual, a player for team Oracle, managed to get ~30 winstreak by playing M1 only perkless Trapper. Trapper gigabroken confirmed? Because that's what you are making it literally sound like.
These counters being 'genrush' (but not actually genrush because that's unfair to killer), 'swiffer' (But not actually swiffer because that's unfair to killer) and 'loop killer for 5 gens'.
tunneling counters:
- anti-tunneling perks;
- chase skills;
- teammates taking hits for you;
- greeding survivor potentially about to be target for tunneling on hook;
- stealthing as a survivor on death hook and avoiding unsafe unhooks yourself
slugging counters:
- anti-slugging perks
- avoiding grouping up as slugs and trying to spread as much as possible
camping counters:
- pressuring gens;
- trading hooks;
- anti-camping perks;
- taking hits in endgame.
But "there is no counter to those!!!".
Again, this 'top tier' level you're talking about doesn't net you a balanced experience, it nets you a 90% winrate with an arm tied behind your back. If you equate that with 'what is needed to win against pub opponents', then that speaks volumes about what your balancing benchmark is.
if League of Legends challenger player plays D-tier champ in plat-emerald ranked matches, gets counterpicked every single match and still has 90% winrate, what does it mean? That champ is broken? League of Legends is unbalanced? Because you'd quite likely understand the thing that way and that speaks enough about your balancing benchmark and how you are paying 0 attention to matchmaking quality.
You were accusing others of refusing to improve, but you balk at the idea of having to play without these crutches because of a dogmatic belief that killer is unplayable without tunnelling/camping/slugging, to the point where you won't even try. And the moment someone sets before you the possibility that -you- may need to improve for once, it's anchors out.
i am the one not calling survivors unskilled when they stealth.
I am the one not calling survivors unskilled when they split on gens early.
You are the one calling killers unskilled when they camp a hook that is being swarmed by other teammates.
You are the one considering killers unskilled when they slug in order to avoid a flashbang/flashlight/pallet save in the open.
You are the one considering killers unskilled when they win first chase very fast and then decide to tunnel that survivor out.
But always, and always, when survivors fail to play the way they should, problem is in...game balance?
Let's put that "calling about improving" ball down, because in my average match i still manage to have decent winrate without tunneling and camping and only slug while in power to chain hits with Oni.Should other people follow my example? Why should they? If your opponent plays optimally, why shouldn't you?
So at this moment, dropping a crutches + skill issue tag on using strats given to you in the game at the times and places where it's beneficial is not unskilled, it's smart.
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@iloveandhatethisgame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3886318#Comment_3886318
good so you admit that they were meta. Thats all I needed. They were meta for 5 years just like dead hard yet you made it seem like it’s only survivors that get to keep their meta perks. Dont believe me?
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/DV50ACCF34D4/img-9921.jpeg
again with the ruin was bad take lol. The perk was the mosted used perk for a reason. Because it was meta you even said it. “Only good survivors” always a cheap point since there isn’t no consensus for what a good survivor even is
again with the ruin was bad take lol. The perk was the mosted used perk for a reason. Because it was meta you even said it. “Only good survivors” always a cheap point since there isn’t no consensus for what a good survivor even is
not even your average survivor player would know to tell you what an actually good survivor is, they'd maybe just say "a survivor that lasts long in chase" and that would be all
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3886974#Comment_3886974
Without exception, the bill has always been passed to the survivors. Every discussion about camping/tunnelling/slugging has always been ground to a halt on this argument about how killers -need- to camp/tunnel/slug in order to have a chance at winning. Without end, killer competence has been left out of the equation.
We can't keep holding off on fixing these gameplay issues because 'it's impossible to win' when it's evidently very much possible to win. And no, what Hens did, did not set any kind of standard skill requirement. It's not like he barely eked out the desired 60% kill rate while playing his hardest, he got well over that, without using killer powers.
It is not unreasonable, after years of these crutches being in the game and shaping killer perception around the game, to just for once, tell killers to try harder.
You don't need to be a pro player because you don't need to hit 90% kill rate.
You don't need to be a pro player because you don't need to play without killer powers.
You just need to try.
alright, let's explain things in the most transparent way possible.
Hens has been practising the game excessively hard and has a lot of hours in it, meaning he mastered so many macro and micro aspects of the game.
So how does he manage to have solid amount of wins without tunneling, slugging and camping? Answer is simple, his skill made him able to notice much more mistakes made by average survivor player than your usual killer player does, and thus he takes advantage of almost all those mistakes. As a result, he doesn't need to force an early 3v1, slug or camp because average survs already make enough mistakes that manage to make up for him handicapping himself.
Now, since you are expecting average killer to learn the game as much as Hens learned in order to take advantage of as many survivor mistakes as possible, why don't we try to make this a vice versa situation?
Tunneling, camping and slugging are severely punished in high skill levels and you actually need to think when you should even attempt trying those (quite often it will be a no-call), why does average survivor player not even attempt to learn how to counter those? Why is only killer expected to learn to play the game on a top tier level so that they don't have to tunnel, camp and slug in order to win against average pub opponents? Why do survivors somehow not need to improve? I'm genuinely curious because i'm seeing this "my opponent should learn to play the game at top level in order for me to have more fun while they handicap themselves while i shouldn't work on improving at all" pattern way too often. There are 2 sides in this PvP game, not just one.
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@solarjin1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3886765#Comment_3886765
is that legit even possible? i can't go 5 games without someone dooming the match through DCs/suicides
who have a 80% excape rate as solo q?
RoxannaGV, former community manager of DbDL has managed it. Also, KnightLight, Zaka and Xeno are having pretty good results on-stream too
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3886266#Comment_3886266
If Hens can get a high kill rate without camping/slugging/tunnelling while playing as not even trapper, ghost or pig but PURELY M1 killer without any powers, then so, theoretically, can you.
if a very skilled player can have 80%+ soloQ escape rate by actually playing as part of the team, so can you
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tbh i wouldn't make any difference between random teammate going next and random teammate using Slippery Meat and luck based builds, both are throwing the match
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@buggybug said:
I think its someone whos throwing or probably new tbh. Then again i see people have like self care with strength in shadows or circle with self care. Overall yeah people can have some quite interesting builds. I stop running exhaust perks 3 years now since 6.1 so mm I guess it's quite weird whenever I see someone doing it knowing youncant do more than one at a time.
only case when you are truly throwing with 2 exhaustions is having SB combined with any other exhaustion tbh
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885922#Comment_3885922
True, thats why I have been saying this for a long time: The objective of the game should be 2k, not 4k. As soon as the 2nd survivor is dead, the remaining 2 are sacrificed by the entity.
this would be the most boring and non-interactive thing they would add to the game lol
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@turksmall236 said:
I don't think we should be penalized for going next if our teammates are goofing around not progressing the match or if they don't bother unhooking us, also we shouldn't be penalized if the killer is destroying us at 4 or 5 gens with no chance of winning. A lot of things have to be considered, this needs to be implemented very carefully
those teammates will get penalized, meaning i think we will see much less cases like that
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everything else in health updates is a huge W, but when you reach points of anti-slugging, anti-camping and anti-tunneling without the slightest mention of finally making hooking/spreading hooks again is very concerning.
For anti-camping, i severely hope it's something like giving teammates info on anti-facecamp progress and/or basekit Kindred and nothing else, because camping is perfectly counterable atm.
For anti-slugging, i hope we will just see bleeding out and Knock Out being addressed, because anything more will result in killers like Oni, Plague and Twins getting heavily impacted by game design and will generally fail to address why slugging is a thing in general.
For anti-tunneling, really? With current anti-tunneling perks state tunneling is close to impossible if teams has at least some gamesense, any further punishment for tunneling is simply rewarding refusal to counter it.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885583#Comment_3885583
1/3rd of players being soft cap MMR is a very generous estimate from someone who says survivors are all just plain bad.
Also, apparently, BHVR has in the past stated that only 5% of the playerbase were in 'high MMR', with the soft-cap being raised after that. Which makes 33% off by a factor of 10, most likely.
So we're not looking at 10K players, we're looking at 1K.
soft MMR cap is so low and thus it's oversaturated. There are way too many players in that zone because it's so easy to reach and, because of that, we have a high matchmaking inaccuracy problem.
@crogers271 said:
The game averages way more than 30k players a day. Right now it has 26k players playing at this moment on Steam, not including all the other systems.
However, this is then not just split up by MMR, but also divided up around the world.
So let's say there was a 100k people playing when Momo was playing, but we split that up to various servers. Let's say he's on one of the more popular regions, we cut that down to 20k. Of that, 4k players should be playing killer and thus can't be matched with Momo, so we have 16k survivors. 5% of that player base should be in his MMR range, so we're talking 800 players above the soft cap.
If out of those 800 possible opponents it takes almost ~2k games to find a suitable match up, the game is killer sided. Even if we estimate he only hit an even match up every 100 games, the chance of that streak is in the tens of millions. On top of that, remember for him to lose the streak the survivors can win or tie. For the streak to be realistic and say he got a little lucky, you need to be saying he was only hitting a challenging match up like every 300 to 400 games.
i mentioned Steam only due to it being the only reliable sample i can notice. But overall, matchmaking takes every other platform into sample too, meaning.
In terms of balance, this is another external factor that has nothing to do with actual balance in terms of buffing/nerfing/tweaking stuff. If you'd really want pub zone to be far better way to determine balance, we would have to raise soft MMR cap by significant margin in order to actually have much more filtered out playerbase. This way, you'd never have accurate balance views outside of comp zone of DbD, because it's the only place where people can actually reliably be put into similar skill levels.
Other than that, game would definitely need some sort of ranked mode in order for most accurate kind of matchmaking
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885552#Comment_3885552
Again, you'd have a point if it was low double digits, but with a winstreak of over a thousand, even in blind matchmaking it has to hit a similarly skilled team at some point.
at some point yes and that point would be far beyond what his winstreak was :)
if game averaged less than 2k players a day, you might have a point, but with game averaging more than 30k players a day, let's say maybe 10k at soft MMR cap at least and possibility of repetitive opponents to come by, the number of actual matches that would need to be played in order for Momo to finally meet a remotely skilled team is...way way beyond 1947.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885410#Comment_3885410
Momoseventh, holder of the biggest Blight winstreak for example is a long term comp player and the best Blight player in the world
In a game with SBMM this should never be possible, regardless of the player’s skill level. Because their opponents should be equally skilled.
The fact these players are “long term comp player[s]” does not make thousands-long win streaks justifiable. It’s shambolic.
this is why i am saying SBMM needs to be drastically improved. I am not justifying winstreaks, i am pointing out to the exact source of the problem: terrible matchmaking, and i really hope BHVR does something to improve it in future, because it isn't okay for 0.01% top player to be matched with players not even close to their skills.
This would be equal of a challenger League of Legends players constantly being matched with Platinum-Emerald players at highest.
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@mecca said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885410#Comment_3885410
Nice dismissal. You are the kind of person that dismisses all proof that doesn't fit your narrative.
nice dismissal? Sounds like you are the one dismissing everything shown to push a hardcore us vs. them mentality simply because you are expecting to consistently win with pure casual training for this game
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@mecca said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885316#Comment_3885316
Winstreaks are everywhere. I think some actually got bored after winning thousands in a row and it's actually not done out of boredom. Like, how long does it take to play a thousand matches ? MMR doesn't work when the balance is so broken anyway because how do you even have MMR when skill is meaningless?
Keep pretending there's nothing to it. Survivors that are smart know.
why don't you pick up a killer, record every match you play and show us how skill is meaningless? You sound like that kind of person who'd say "everyone can do winstreaks" and then loses against most mid teams because "they genrushed".
Momoseventh, holder of the biggest Blight winstreak for example is a long term comp player and the best Blight player in the world. Do you think he would reach even 1/10 of that streak if he was a very average player?
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i think he needs rocket launcher
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@mecca said:
Its the most unbalanced game in existence. Tryhard killers own the game basically with a leash on the devs to dictate balance.
Survivors know this because nobody wants to play it and those that do either lose or give up. It's really sad.
Meanwhile, killers play the game undefeated with unfathomable win streaks that elitists downplay and tries to pretend they are insignificant.
winstreaks made by 0.01% of top players who literally had hardcore comp training and have highest macro game knowledge out of rest of players and are playing against very average players. This isn't a balance issue, this is MMR issue and it will never be fixed because none of yall would want queues to be a minute or two longer so that you could have more accurate matches.
Not to mention that stricter MMR would really shatter egos of majority of this community.
Next time when you or any other person tries talking about winstreaks, make sure you mention whose winstreaks you are talking about
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@sanees said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885067#Comment_3885067
the plague literally just spits on the generator and now anyone who touches it will spread the disease and expose everyone to an uncurable status, while the plague itself can be on the other end of the map, at this time the legion must run to you, must outsmart you in the pallet mind game and still there is a huge chance that the survivor will simply drop the pallet after the hit and stun him
With all this, the plague has a red liquid that gives power while the legion is just M1, it looks like you're making it absurd like "Trapper is OP and he has no counter game" or you're really that bad at understanding killersthe plague literally just spits on the generator and now anyone who touches it will spread the disease and expose everyone to an uncurable status, while the plague itself can be on the other end of the map, at this time the legion must run to you, must outsmart you in the pallet mind game and still there is a huge chance that the survivor will simply drop the pallet after the hit and stun him
the Plague at least interacts with survivors and survivors interacts woth her, has a kinda low skill floor and significantly high skill ceiling + her power is not just about vomiting on gens and making survs perma broken.
And let's not try to present some basics of M1 chases on pallets against a killer that won't really do much no matter if you stun or not stun them as something power related that actually requires some skill. Legion has 0 skill aspect in their power. It's just hit n' run slasher power.
With all this, the plague has a red liquid that gives power while the legion is just M1, it looks like you're making it absurd like "Trapper is OP and he has no counter game" or you're really that bad at understanding killers
where did i try to present Legion as broken killer or anything similar to that? They are literally one of the easiest killers to vs. and so one of the worst killers in the game, they are just a massive skillless snoozefest to vs., and in my opinion even to play as.
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@sanees said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885034#Comment_3885034
I'm wondering how the legion can hit without interacting with the survivor? Your argument indirectly applies to the plague, but not to the legion
Plague has an actual skill aspect implemented into her power, Legion is literally just run around and slash, 0 skill floor, 0 skill ceiling. Basically nothing but an M1 killer that just has killer instinct in their power and is just meant to be annoying compared to Plague that actually has strategic counterplay and strategic gameplay from her side.
Those two are literally incomparable
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@sanees said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3884990#Comment_3884990
it's just 6 seconds...
and killer having 0 interaction with you
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Oni is basically my killer one-trick. As for survivor, Mikaela is the only one o'm willing to push to P100 so she's my main ig.
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a killer being boring and zzz to vs isn't necessarily tied with them eventually being op. It's boring to play a match where Legion just comes, slashes and leaves