Mister_Holdout
Mister_Holdout
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- Mister_Holdout
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I'm referring to hypothetical match ups. The higher potential of survivors vs the higher potential of killers.
And in most cases, survivors can reliably defeat most killer setups. There are exceptions however. 3+ blink Nurse, insta saw Billy, iridescent Huntress, prayer beads Spirit, ect.
As killer, you never know who you're going to get matched with. You might get unlucky and be matched with a good survivor team. Guess what? Unless you're playing Nurse, that match will likely result in a loss.
I can give you specific examples of this happening, but I'm assuming you get the idea.
Survivors have the tools to beat most killers. That's my point.
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Nurse because screw survivors.
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@ABannedCat said:
Nurse. I like being rewarded for my skill.
Hell yeah
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The devs could have at least designed a power that isn't shite.
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I can appreciate you taking the time to develop this rule list. But I have one question.
Have you ever played this game on PC before? If so, how many hours? Just curious because I recall you saying that you're an Xbox player.
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It's honestly getting real old at this point. Lackluster update after lackluster update.
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Agreed. These lackluster killers are getting old.
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Not a fan of the red light either tbh.
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You're probably right about the experiments being unrealistic. I said it would be helpful to conduct these experiments, but I realize how difficult setting up all this would be.
Unfortunately, the community most likely won't reach a majority consensus about Nurse (at least not without strong evidence).
I'm not sure what the devs are going to do about Sally. My guess is when the game becomes more and more balanced, there will be a greater number of people calling for Nurse reworks.
We'll have to see how that plays out.
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@weirdkid5 I still want to see some experiments with good Nurses. We need a wide array of experiments to truly gauge how strong a Nurse can be. If you get a skilled group of survivors to beat a really good Nurse (ex. Zubat) over and over, then that shows Nurse isn't overpowered like people think. The only good Nurse I can recall the depip squad beating was Blinky Bill. We need more than just one match.
For the record, I would guess that any Nurse can be beaten. I recall Blinky losing a game or two during his streams. Of course, the footage for these games is lost as far as I know.
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@weirdkid5 Oh, I know. Only Nurses using the most try hard builds were able to win. But to be fair, the depip squad were being try hard as well.
I want to see some new experiments. Games where both sides are using relatively normal setups. This will give us a better idea of how easily the scale can tip.
Also, I wouldn't mind seeing a SWF team versing Zubat's Nurse. A lot of people tend to think he's one of the best all-around killers, so the anti Nurse people won't have any ammunition if Zubat is beaten.
In other words, the Nurse haters are stating a good Nurse cannot be beaten. I want to give them a chance to prove it.
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They seemed okay when I played killer, but then again, I was mostly preoccupied with how disappointing GF was. So yeah....
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I would like to see some Nurse experiments honestly.
Have one of the best Nurses go against some of the best survivors. These survivors need to be good at mind gaming and understanding how to use the map to their advantage.
There can be different experiments with different conditions to see if the results change.
The best we have so far is Marth's experiment. But I would like to see new experiments since the meta has changed a bit since then.
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I personally believe Nurse is beatable, but it definitely depends on her setup and the map involved.
Default Nurse is fair game because her power gives survivors enough wiggle room to react. As long as survivors manage their distance, and break line of sight when the Nurse misses a chain blink, they should not drop like flies.
To my knowledge, Nurse cannot chase after survivors with 100% accuracy all over the map. There are some areas that if caught in can get you killed really quick, but that applies to other killers as well. Or course, this all ties in with map design. I think all maps should have a minimum number of LOS breakers to facilitate mind gaming. Maps like Blood Lodge are hard to juke Nurses.
Lastly, Nurse does have problematic add ons. When you start combining these add ons, you drastically reduce a survivor's counter play. For instance, there's really nothing you can do against a 5 blink Nurse. She's going to get a hit.
This is why I believe stealth and mind gaming should be made a little stronger on some maps. Other maps need the opposite though (Lery's and Haddonfield). In addition to map design, toning down her add ons should put Nurse in a decent spot.
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My expectations are pretty low actually.
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Probably shouldn't carry on conversations with these people.
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*underpowered*
Most killers are underpowered verse good survivors.
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This is a build that I haven't tried myself (because i dont have the perks yet). Tell me how it goes.
DH, BT, Head On, Q&Q.
I feel the BT and Head On combo will be great for dealing with basement situations.
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No, it should not be a non hex perk. Ruin is actually pretty strong when used by a killer who can pressure survivors effectively.
The devs just need to overhaul the entire totem system, and make totem locations much more hidden and random. Hopefully, even the veteran survivor mains wouldn't be able to find them straight away.
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Preach.
But seriously, the map design is horrendous in this game. Anyone who isn't biased can see that.
The devs need to revisit the more "balanced" maps and study all the details that made those maps more balanced.
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Trapper: 2 traps by default. Traps hold survivors for a minimum duration. Increase the hit box of traps. Make traps slightly darker by default.
Leatherface: Little to no slow down while revving the saw. Smaller chainsaw hit box for easier maneuvering. Short chainsaw sprint for added map pressure.
This is what I can think of at the top of my head.
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So in other words, you want an easy escape, right?
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@Mochan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/497479#Comment_497479
Factually you'd be wrong, because in most cases (Ranks 5-20) Killers have the upper hand. Suvivors only have the upperhand at the highest ranks, where so few people are that htey keep running into each other over and over. In lower ranks you'll be lucky to see the same guy twice in a month. That's how many more people are in the lower ranks where Killers are definitely enjoying the advantage.
I'm not wrong.
Good Survivors > Good Killer. That's just how it is. DbD favors survivors in most scenarios. Rank doesn't matter, because those SWF kill squads could be at any rank. The only killer capable of going toe to toe with skilled survivors is Nurse. And that's because Nurse isn't handicapped nearly as much by bad map design as other killers.
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@BadMrFrosty said:
Now, unless he changes fairly drastically from PTB to live (which.. I don't think has ever really happened for any killer in a positive sense), it looks like he'll have the same problem pig does - sprint burst.
Thus far he appears to possess no stall and no map pressure (two key elements of a good killer). In theory he can end chases before they begin, but with the prerequisite that the survivors are completely blind or on one of the few favorable stealth maps (Lerys, for example).
I'm not sure how he'll function against even semi-coordinated SWF groups with his power being disabled at the low, low cost of.. panning your camera in his direction in his TR. Does anyone else have any possible theories as to how he could play out? For me, I figure the exposed effect needs to be increased for sure. What I would change already:
- Increase exposed duration to 60 seconds.
- Remove all 'sound' tells that Ghostface is nearby. Stealth is hardly useful if your enemy is getting sound prompts that 'something is up'. Use your eyes.
- Survivors can no longer disable his power. This has to go or he'll end up like Plague - weak, forgotten, and thrown in the dumpster after the initial hype week.
- For a limited time when coming out of stealth after exposing a target, he receives increased lunge distance for X amount of seconds.
- I'm All Ears: Perk adjusted to show auras of survivors vaulting within killer's terror radius - cooldown 10 seconds.
- Thrilling Tremors: Generators currently being worked on by survivors are blocked instead of those not being worked on. That way, you stall the game, AND know for sure which generators are being worked on.
- Furtive Chase: Gain up to 4 tokens each time the obsession is hooked. Each token reduces your terror radius by 2/3/4 meters and reduces your red stain by 50/75/100%.
Those would be my ideas for a start. He's sounding a lot more threatening compared to his current iteration.
Nice. Those sound like good changes.
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I personally haven't found him annoying. He does a pretty good job at running the live stream.
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I would be much more hyped for map design updates tbh. I feel like all this lore crap can wait.
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@Poweas said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/499563#Comment_499563
@Mister_Holdout thanks a lot actually. Is Q and E worth using when I try to curve? Or should I only curve with mouse?
@Poweas I use Q and E for everything. But I also use the mouse just a bit when trying to hit survivors in melee range. Basically, I use the mouse just enough to initially line up the chainsaw with the survivor, and then I use Q and E to respond to their sudden movements.
Let me just say it's pretty hard to execute all this properly. It does involve quite a bit of mechanical skill.
If you have the time, I would reach out to Zubat during one of his streams and ask him about Q and E. As far as I know, you're supposed to use Q and E for everything. You can ask Zubat just to make sure (Zubat is a god tier Billy). Also, ask him how you consistently hit 360s. I haven't heard him say and I'm dying to know xD
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This is a very well-thought out post. I agree with a lot of what you said.
Having a healthy mixture of looping and stealth should hopefully please most of the player base.
Just a word of caution. You don't want to make stealth too strong. Otherwise, Nurse and Spirit will be significantly weaker. I'm all for strengthening stealth, but it needs to reasonable.
Killers like Billy and Wraith should be susceptible to looping. And killers like Spirit and Nurse should be susceptible to stealth. That would make for an interesting variety of game play.
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As some of the others have said, using Q and E is highly recommended. The improved control and accuracy is noticeable.
Other than that, there are a few advanced techniques worth learning:
Curving: During the very beginning of the chainsaw sprint, you can curve your sprint by quite a lot. This will potentially allow you to chainsaw survivors at certain loops. It's not a guarantee though. Really skilled survivors can do a quick 180 and avoid the charge. Basically, when a survivor is looping around something, you can catch them with the saw if you position yourself correctly and pull out the saw fast enough to start the charge. You'll need to be close enough for this to work though. And you may have to mind game at certain loops. But what's really important is being able to curve around obstacles. This is very hard to do by the way. You need to understand the obstacle's hit box. I recommend watching experienced Billies for examples. But typically, you hold the charge at 95% and postilion yourself just shy of the corner of the loop. Once there, start the sprint and do a sharp turn, which will allow you to curve around what ever obstacle is there and allow you to hit the survivor trying to go around the loop.
360s: I'm just going to be honest here. Hitting survivors that can 360 well is a pain in the ass. Even in narrow hallways they can still pull it off. I haven't seen anyone give a well-thought out response as to how you can reliably counter 360s. I'll give you my advice based off experience. Don't try and track a well done 360. It's either not possible or ridiculously hard. What I would suggest is backing up just a tiny bit (in order to get a better view of the entire 360) and then keep your chainsaw steady without turning too much. If you turn too much while charging the saw, it can quickly disorient you. Wait for the 360 to slow down and then nail them. With Q and E you can respond pretty well to sudden movements. Like curving, this skill takes loads of practice. There are different 360s that you'll need to get exposed to.
Feathering: This simply means using the chainsaw to mind game at pallets. You can keep the chainsaw charge at around 5% and pretend like you're going for a sprint. The survivor will keep running around the loop allowing you to get an M1 hit or even a saw. A lot of survivors will adjust for this by throwing down the pallet next time. So keep your saw charged and when they throw down the pallet, you can more quickly destroy it. Also, if a survivor throws down a pallet, they will usually not leave the loop until the pallet is broken. You can bait them to leave by pretending that you're going to destroy the pallet, but in actuality you simply cancel the charge and go around the loop to catch the survivor who has just left.
That's about it. As for perks, Whispers, BBQ, Enduring, and Spirit Fury are staples. You can throw on Ruin if you anticipate a tough survivor team.
If you need someone to learn from, then definitely watch ZubatLEL on twitch. One of the best Billies I have ever seen. I'll give him that.
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I would personally love a 2v8 game mode, but I also understand the devs are very unlikely to implement it. So my guess would be 5% or something.
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@StopDropPANIC said:
Watch these videos:
How to not be a bad killer by DammNoHtml (ScottJund): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UoymuGcBzY
How to run all generic tiles as killer by DamnNoHtml (ScottJund): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8u0jRxN2kQ
Advanced chase strategies by OhTofu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HafXeY7RF6Y
Pallet tutorial by OhTofu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPr_bQdVkj0
Have fun!
These are good guides, but I would urge OP not to take everything they say seriously. Both of these guys are survivor fan boys who try and present a false idea of what it is like to play killer.
Their guides are good for learning how to run tiles, strategies, and perk load outs, but what they forget to mention is this: if you're going against good survivors, you're screwed.
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That was a change that should have never went through. Unhook properties are not supposed to favor survivors.
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/499121#Comment_499121
Can your circle strafe perfectly with a keyboard? No.
Can you perfectly hug loops without needing to turn your camera using a keyboard? No.
Can you move at different speeds using a keyboard? No.
Can you move in any direction you wish that is not one of the 8 cardinal directions without doing janky inputs on keyboard? No.
A joystick is superior to a keyboard when it comes to movement. The only thing a keyboard can offer that a joystick can't is instantaneous full speed in a direction, but as it takes less than a millisecond to push the stick completely in a direction this is barely an advantage.
@TAG I would only use it for killer as I feel that mouse input is moot for survivor. My controls would be something like (Xbox) M1 for attack, M2 for power, LT for action (kick gen, break pallet, etc), LB for alternate killer power, and either mouse scroll click or left stick click to drop survivor.
Just so you know, KBM is superior to controller in most cases (this applies to killer and survivor). The speed and precision you gain from KBM is very noticeable.
I was blown away with how much better KBM is than controller after to moving to PC. Now I can never go back.
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This game is poorly optimized in general.
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Yep, I've noticed it too. Not that it matters much anyway because queue times are so long.
But I understand why survivors do this.
It's far less stressful playing with reliable teammates than with trash randoms.
I just wish the devs would get serious about actually trying balance the game (which means addressing bad map design).
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One of the few instances where I wouldn't blame the player for disconnecting.
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I admire your bravery for posting this discussion in the survivor section. But it will do no good I'm afraid.
This game has been survivor-sided since the beginning, and will probably stay that way for a while I'd imagine.
People in the community simply don't want to admit the game favors survivors (in most cases).
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@lasombra1979 said:
@Mister_Holdout I actually agree with you about it ruining the immersion. I also am not the best team player so most my friends now refuse to SWF with me because I end up sandbagging them(only half the time on purpose). Now the only time I run SWF is with my wife. That really isnt SWF though, its her finding ways to sandbag me before I sandbag her. I think most killers love when we load in their lobby, we do half the work for them.
That's one of the reasons I don't totally hate SWF. Some of them are there to have fun, and not completely ruin the killer's game.
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It's pretty tricky for me to say which killer is better. There are many variables involved.
Spirit might be a little better against good survivors for the simple reason she can handle loops more effectively.
But on the other hand, Billy is just such a powerful killer all around (even without a meta build).
Most high rank Spirits I versed were using tryhard meta perks. Billy can do well without tryhard meta perks.
I think if you compared a Spirit using (Ruin, BBQ, Sloppy, NC and good add ons) to a Billy using (BBQ, Whispers, Enduring, Spirit Fury and low tier or no add ons), then Spirit would probably be better. But compare that same Spirit to a Billy using Ruin with Doom Engravings and Primer Bulb; now all of a sudden Billy becomes much more potent.
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Nurse because she doesn't have to put up with the bullshit other killers do.
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I don't like playing with friends either (ruins the immersion for me). Not to mention, it's pretty disgusting given the huge advantage your friends have over the killer.
If matchmaking did its job, life would be better for everyone.
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Learn Nurse like I did, that way you can nuke them during the next encounter.
Or...
Just leave when the match is over. You shouldn't let the toxicity get to you because all the rational players know this game is survivor-sided.
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Unhooking properties should not be survivor-sided lol.
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Sure, and killers can break generators that have already been repaired.
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Yeah, I'm not a huge fan.
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Yeah, even though I'm a killer main, I also play solo survivor. So I know the feel.
That said, you'll probably always have teammates like that. Unless the devs can improve matchmaking considerably.
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It changes honestly.
Some days I'm only in the mood for killer.
And other days I'm only in the mood for survivor.
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Favorites? Probably Haddonfield and The Game. Haddonfield is fun to look at, and Gideon Meat Plant has loads of pallets.
Least? Probably Lery's.
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There are a few killers that I don't particularly like versing, but if I had to pick one it would be Freddy.
I'm sorry, but his power is just obnoxious.
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Some of these perks are pretty cool.