MasterofSFL
MasterofSFL
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@hagling said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1698851#Comment_1698851
you didn't read the tweet did you? they said originally they hadn't represented ~any~ sexualities, then did so for heterosexuals only. they've committed to being inclusive and righting that wrong, which is admirable. i don't mind if you don't want it. this post wasn't for you.
It doesn't matter and if you feel that it does, then I suggest you stop reading the paragraph and a half of poorly written lore and pick up a novel with actual depth and character development. "Adding it in" just amounts to tokenism, which isn't righting a wrong or being inclusive, it's just cheapening the idea with a superficial shoehorn.
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I've said it before, intoxicated survivors should be affected by Oblivious. Regardless of the other changes, that in of itself would add to Clown's disorientation-as-a-mechanism theme.
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I currently have an active thread on No Mither: https://bit.ly/3j15JCf
We already have a perk that lets you recover faster from the exhaust status (Vigil). The reason the exhaust status was introduced was to help standardize the "mobility" perks, as well as remove the ability to recharge them while running. One of the issues with Sprint Burst when it was first introduced was that it was on a low cooldown and it charged as you ran. This kind of change could push exhaustion perks to far, as it would allow survivors to constantly have their mobility up during chases.
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@Shallgale said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1682225#Comment_1682225
Oh, I like that.
Though a quick dirty way to do it would probably be to just not award blood points for camping so sacrifices don't have as much weight if they go through the entire hook progression in one go. So having it count as if they did only one hook vs full sacrifice points. So that way it would have the killers depip for the behavior. So you reward killers that chase, find, and hook survivors for each unique hook with more blood points for better behavior and maxing out chase and other categories. This way killers that don't chase, find survivors, or ect won't get pip progression and stay in the 20 to teens.
Killers already Depip for camping, it doesn't dissuade the behavior.
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@thepyramidhead said:
The devs said it, its valid. Its also gives survivors a chance to do gens.
Well, the devs are wrong.
You can't simultaneously allow for camping, asking the hooked survivor to "stay there, as long as you can," and then penalize survivors who stay on hook/DC because they have better things to do. You can't also bill your game as an asymmetrical survival-horror with hide&seek elements, only to promote the contrary: Scenic Walking Simulator w/ a side of Myst added in.
If you're going to validate the most toxic playstyle, you need to reward the target of that playstyle.
Don’t Worry About Me: 20 Seconds after being hooked, Don’t Worry About Me activates. Upon activation, you gain 250 bloodpoints towards Altruism and earn an increasing amount of bloodpoints towards Altruism afterwards, capping out at 150 every 3 seconds after. While Don’t Worry About Me is active, you gain 250 bloodpoints toward Boldness for every generator completed. Don’t Worry About Me deactivates after being unhooked.
@AvisDeene said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1682102#Comment_1682102
Camping is playing the game, just not how you want them to play. They still have to defend it from your teammates, and be honest, it isn't the campers fault that it works, it's the Survivors since they keep feeding him.
Stopping the health bar wouldn't work for all situations. What will happen if a Killer manages to hook a Survivor near a gate when all gens are powered and their teammates keep running the Killer around the hook?
I would rather that the Devs upgrade the entity and have it teleport Survivors to a random hook after their first hook and only if there are 3 or more gens left.
Entity's Displeasure: Hooked Survivors while within your terror radius and 10m of you have reduced death progression shortly after being hooked, while you're not in chase. Entity's Displeasure Is deactivated upon entering a chase, Entity's Displeasure will reactivate after spending a total of 10 seconds near a hooked survivor after exiting a chase. Entity's Displeasure is not in effect when two or more survivors are on hook or during End-Game Collapse.
It's not hard to target the scenario everyone hates
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@thefallenloser said:
Additional change, which I think would be fairly warranted:
You begin the trial healthy. After recovering yourself from the dying state or taking three protection hits you become broken for the remainder of the trial.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1682038#Comment_1682038
I believe that it can actually be pronounced either way.
I specifically didn't put the additional health state in there because No MIther is supposed to out a target on your back, so the killer has a reason to chase you at the beginning.
@[Deleted User] said:
I'm all for it! I think it would still be pretty weak even with these changes, but this would make for some more fun niche builds and it would at least fit well with David King. It'd be pretty awesome to see people synergize No Mither, probably the worst survivor perk in the game, and Boil Over, probably the second-worst survivor perk in the game XD
I feel with the change it would be a viable choice for builds, if only because smart looping and chasing can force the killer to slug you because you're too far from a hook.
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@Leachy_Jr said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1681043#Comment_1681043
He has no mobility.
His tracking is reliant on survivor mistakes.
Doesn't "deny" an area unless you aren't stepping or crouching over torment (for some reason).
Mori on death hook*
Ranged attack with a reactable telegraph and a long cooldown.
Pyramid lives and dies by his anti DS and his ranged power due to how little else he has in his kit. Thankfully his raged power is pretty good during animation locks.
You don't need mobility when you have an attack that passes through obstacles.
Also, this whole "when things are done perfect" argument doesn't fly, it never does. Survivors will make mistakes unless they're top-tier, sweat with friends. When I said "Power-packed" I think you read that as over-powered. They're not the same thing and his kit is packed.
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As I had stated here, camping isn't hard to solve for:
Entity's Displeasure: Hooked Survivors while within your terror radius and 10m of you have reduced death progression shortly after being hooked, while you're not in chase. Entity's Displeasure Is deactivated upon entering a chase, Entity's Displeasure will reactivate after spending a total of 10 seconds near a hooked survivor after exiting a chase. Entity's Displeasure is not in effect when two or more survivors are on hook or during End-Game Collapse.
The most common retort you'll receive is that (Blatant) camping is a legitimate strategy and all you need to do is spend 2-3 weeks and $20 to get the get-out-of-jail perks or "just do gens." It doesn't matter what the hooked survivor's experience is like during the entire event, no one seems to really care or get that fact. At bare minimum, hooked survivors being (blatantly) camped ought to receive Altruism (time on hook) and Objective points (gens completed), just so the experience isn't so hellishly boring/frustrating to the point of DCing.
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Over-packed kit. Pyramid Head can deny an area, track you, mori you, ranged attack (with no drawback) and immediately send you to hook.
He's the Jack-of-All-Trades killer, with no real clear weakness.
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It's a flip of the coin: It's either going to destroy the survivors or it's going to completely fail. There is no inbetween.
It's too strong when it succeeds and it's useless when it fails. There's no balancing that and the fact that SWF is an active thing means that it's going to often rely on the killer facing a solo/duo group or a communicative 3-4 man. That something is so inconsistent, yet so ungodly effective against the one queue that is also the easiest to face makes it worth shifting in power at the very least.
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@SquirrelKnight said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1678804#Comment_1678804
But... That was a nerf because now its even MORE useless
But it wasn't, because survivors are actually going to spend their time healing instead of gens.
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@SquirrelKnight said:
Just gonna throw out my piece on this. The 1% difference per survivor is by no means, anywhere near an equal buff for removing the healing penalty. As now it makes healing easier so survivors are more likely to do it. So you are far less likely to have 4 survivors injured, and with that it also means that survivors dont have a reason to NOT heal. Now thana, can be fully bypassed by doing stuff survivors should be doing anyway. Not a huge fan of thana before the change but now its just useless
That's the entire point. This wasn't a nerf.
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I’m just going to address these things individually, @Dead_by_Gadfly. The things I’m going to address are Bold and Italicized.
Ground Up
“First is adding a mandatory secondary objective...Each switch takes 20 seconds to power at base (perks could adjust time either plus or minus) and once the switch is activated the generators in that region are able to be worked on...At the beginning of the match gens are orange for the killer, once they are Activated and can be worked on they change to Red (letting the killer know which Region to worry about)...Switches are NOT highlighted for the killer or Survivor and are RNG based (survivors can follow the cables to locate the switch)."
While I agree secondary objectives should be implemented, this idea of switches and regions isn’t it. The primary issue I see with this is that activating a region immediately paints a target for the Killer and cables just give a direct line to survivors, defeating the purpose of most information perks and giving them a massive bonus in the form of 1-3 more perk slots. Instead, I would rather your “Power Cable” idea be used, where the survivors have to couple and lock them into place (maybe using a randomized ↑→↓→). Cable Plugs spark after a gen has been completed, cables wrap around the map and there are 3 disconnected cables. Doing so would lengthen the time till the exit gates are powered.
Speed Caps
“A generator can never be completed quicker than 60 seconds even if all 4 survivors work the same gen using prove thyself and BNP’s. It can also never be slowed more than 100 seconds (stacking thanta, dying light and a bunch of Freddy addons would still never go beyond 100 seconds). This could be even more restricted depending on how the devs and community feel about it making it 70-90.”
Currently two survivors can do a generator in 47 seconds. It takes 80 seconds to do just one by yourself. This basically eliminates the need to work together. Slowing generator speeds directly shouldn’t be the move, I would propose instead that working with 1 or more survivors a stacked effect is applied that (actually) significantly increases skill checks, reduces the range to hit it and after a certain amount of failures (say 6-X {X= Survivor count on gen}) the generator stalls. This would help slow down overall generator progress, without actively nerfing the time and discourage 4 men on gen. Do that and rate decreases for generators can be easily placed in.
Chase
“This is where people have the most interaction/fun in the game and as such it shouldn’t be changed a whole lot. The blade wipe animation should be reduced though, and the speed up after getting hit should also be slowed down. Hitting a survivor that likes to hold W means spending another 20 seconds catching back up to them.”
Chases shouldn’t be touched, if you’re slowing down generator completion and adding in a new secondary objective, short chases will just amount to easy wins by killers more often than not.
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So buff one of the strongest Survivor perks?
Sounds like a no mate.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1677017#Comment_1677017
My goodness are you deliberately ignoring what I am saying? My whole problem with the perk is that the counterplay which is either chaining windows or pallets isnt really reliable. The jungle gyms/ LT walls are absurdly spaced and you cant chain them, while the filler pallets are down within 10 seconds. Clowns kit was designed around anti looping not anti infinite his kit isnt outdated. The perk was designed around stopping infinites.
I don't deny window looping doesnt exist. Bamboozle is a killer dead hard in a sense it can outplay you with he press of a button. One more time. I dont care about being caught I just want to be able to chain my tiles and counter the perk.
No, I'm not ignoring what you're saying, I'm just not sugar-coasting what this boils down to: "When killers use Bamboozle, they catch me."
You haven't given any real reason why Bamboozle is a problem, only that because Bamboozle sometimes exists within your games, looping and outmaneuvering the killer with windows is less effective. Saying that there's "nothing to run to, nothing to impede the killer" phrased differently quite literally is "When killers use Bamboozle, they catch me." Repeating over and over that it was a half-measured solution to infinite looping is not a point towards it being outdated, it was a half-measure tool, not the supreme end-all perk for it until they solved the problem.
If the perk blocked all windows in a radius, you'd have an actual point, but one window over the course a chase, that (possibly) cuts the chase down 30 seconds while the entire rest of your team is pounding out generators is not the ill-suited design you're trying to paint it as and with your proposed nerf, you might as well delete it. 8 Seconds is it's bare minimum now and more often than not it doesn't stop anyone unless they're; at killer shack without a pallet.
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@Yords said:
I have seen quite a few discussions against camping, they usually end up saying how to nerf it. I don't understand it, if the killer camps, just do gens and escape if you can. Camping sucks yes, but it is strategy. Killers who go out of their way to camp people for no reason suck to go against but they only get more kills because people go for saves. I am confused as to why people are making nerfs to something that is easily countered.
@MadLordJack said:
Because camping is a completely miserable experience that robs 5 people of a fun and interactive trial
There you have it.
I don't play Dead by Daylight for the scenery and stress relief.
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@Kind_Lemon said:
Alternative answer: if a killer stays by a hook too long, the survivor instantly dies so that there's no more reason to camp the hook and the survivor can't complain about the killer spending the entire match in his/her face.
It's also a bad solution.
I'm of the opinion that there doesn't have to be a "solution" and that instead, the game should be made to have everything feel better. Changing all of these specific mechanics without addressing underlying problems has been the strategy of the devs ever since perks like Ruin were introduced and kept as meta. And now, we're in a place where none of that feels any less frustrating.
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Kind_Lemon
An advocate of place-able totems, a priming-pallet interaction, and the removal of Exposed from tier 1 Devour Hope.
Also supports changes to how many survivors need to be present to start repairs on a generator.
#revertNurseaddons #reverttieroneDevour #reverttieroneBL #nofreechaseresources #placeabletotems #revertBillysounds #workwiththemusicyouhave
The underlying problem is always going to be that the game is asymmetrical and there are always going to be imbalances between the objectives/playstyles of both sides. The game will never be in a perfect state, but the game's most toxic/unfun aspects can be mitigated and that ought to be the overall objective.
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@thefallenloser said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1677197#Comment_1677197
As a fellow Trapper player, I’ll disagree with you here. Having to go around and pick up your power is absolutely the biggest issue with Trapper, as it’s the one that uses the most amount of time. Traps are spread out across the entire map. On maps like Ormond, it’s basically GG if you want to use more than 3 traps, and even on smaller maps like The Game, it’s still a painful usage of time to walk around and pick your power up off the ground and walk to put it somewhere else. This problem is only intensified by what you mentioned though, the small carrying/starting cap at base. If Trapper was able to grab his carrying cap out of lockers as well as start with 2 and carry 2 at base, he’d be excellent.
If you're chasing and patrolling, you pick them up as you go no issue. If your whole thing is beginning of the game getting as many traps down as possible, then yes, you're going to have a bad time. Tying them to lockers means you're going to be spending that time you'd otherwise spend grabbing them around the map (during patrols and chases) and wasting just as much time.
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I'll leave you this thread by @TheClownisKing: https://bit.ly/3dpOpph
It wasn't a nerf, it was a massive buff.
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As someone who plays Trapper, I say no.
Trapper's issue isn't the collection of the traps, it's the lack of carrying capacity and set time. If Trapper could carry 2, start with 1 and the setting time was reduced, he'd be where he needs to be. It's the inability to collect as he goes and the time wasted from setting/resetting traps that makes him so difficult to use.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1677017#Comment_1677017
My goodness are you deliberately ignoring what I am saying? My whole problem with the perk is that the counterplay which is either chaining windows or pallets isnt really reliable. The jungle gyms/ LT walls are absurdly spaced and you cant chain them, while the filler pallets are down within 10 seconds. Clowns kit was designed around anti looping not anti infinite his kit isnt outdated. The perk was designed around stopping infinites.
I don't deny window looping doesnt exist. Bamboozle is a killer dead hard in a sense it can outplay you with he press of a button. One more time. I dont care about being caught I just want to be able to chain my tiles and counter the perk.
I'm not ignoring what you're saying, I'm just not sugar-coating what it boils down to: "When killers use Bamboozle, they catch me."
For whatever reason these forums nuked my first post, so I'll just be concise here. The perk wasn't the answer to infinite loops, it was the half-measure against repeated looping. You're complaining about a half-measure now being ill-suited for the game, because you're not able to extend chases another 30 seconds with another close loop/pallet. It's an absurd complaint.
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@MadLordJack said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1677069#Comment_1677069
Who said 6 seconds? It could be 15. Or 30. The beauty of a perk like this is that the duration of the reading can be adjusted to bring it from underpowered to overpowered.
This kind of perk either becomes monstrous in it's strength or useless. Look at any other perk that shows the aura, the range is between 4-6. If you're talking about 15-30 seconds of absolute knowledge of a killer, you're basically giving survivors unlimited surveillance between Object of Obsession and "Reconnaissance". That's why I said all survivors or the killer and it's possessions. One gives you and the time a solid idea of where the killer is, at the cost of time and resources. The other gives you a solid idea of the killer's position and their traps. Simply getting the aura would make it too weak until it was too strong in conjunction with other perks and SWF.
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Bit useless to be frank.
You're spending 6 seconds to get 6 seconds of aura? I might have something if it were all survivors see the aura or and the aura of the killer's possessions, but you'd be better off with Spine Chill at that point.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1676929#Comment_1676929
I never said is ant 3 options I simply shave been stating that chaining windows (bamboozled counterplay) isnt possible when the tiles have absurd space in between them. Then I said even if you try to chain a filler pallet they are down within 10 seconds and even then they are rng based so you might bot even have them to spawn.
Yes it is outdated you said it yourself they ni longer exist so the perk bamboozle is outdated. Infinites does not mean repeated window vaults it meant never dying when you had that window. I dont care about being caught it's how the perk takes no skill and you simply "outplay" someone due to its nature .
Again, it is "When killers use Bamboozle, they catch me."
It's clear you do care about being caught, you just don't like you got caught when a killer has the foresight to take something that removes options you're counting on. There's nothing outdated about the perk, the perk arrived on Clown, who was specifically designed to make looping harder. By your own standards, Clown should be wrecking shop because his "Outdated kit" was designed for the infinite loop era and everyone is just open and without cover.
Windows still exit, 1-2 minute tile looping with windows still exists, all kinds of stall-the-game survivor perks still exist. The entire rationale for Bamboozle still exists. Just because it was introduced as a half-measure solution to infinite looping doesn't mean it no longer has purpose for reason within the game. If you're a window happy looper who always counts on having that one extra jump to extend a chase by 30 more seconds, then Bamboozle is for you.
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@DawnMad said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1675295#Comment_1675295
Can you give me a source, I would like to see it. In the current state of the game I don't believe there wouldn't be pressure to unhook since the killer can still hook another survivor in the meanwhile. This makes it a huge risk because at that point if he slugged 1 other survivor and found the last one the game would be basically over.
It most likely was the first PGE in September of 2016 "Slowed-down the Entity progression on the Hook if the Killer remained within a certain proximity of it."
I went over this issue a few days ago in this thread: https://bit.ly/3dh5lhA.
This was what I proposed: Entity's Displeasure: Hooked Survivors while within your terror radius and 10m of you have reduced death progression shortly after being hooked, while you're not in chase. Entity's Displeasure Is deactivated upon entering a chase, Entity's Displeasure will reactivate after spending a total of 10 seconds near a hooked survivor after exiting a chase. Entity's Displeasure is not in effect when two or more survivors are on hook or during End-Game Collapse.
The issue with removing hook timers comes down to pressure on the survivors. Killers need to be able to force survivors into lose-lose scenarios in order to disrupt and waste their time. Having no death progression on hook takes that way, as now at any time, when it's convenient, Survivors can just find the hooked man. Your proposal would probably increase tunneling more than anything, as now the first hooked survivor would become the priority. If you want to reduce camping overall, you'll have to make blatant camping sub-optimal to the point that it's not worth doing for 99% of killers. Additionally, as I have also stated in that thread, camped survivors need to be earning Altruism and Objective points while on hook (Altruism for distracting the killer, objectives for generators completed). That would at the minimum make being camped not feel like a complete waste of the Survivors time.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1676913#Comment_1676913
No that's not my complaint dont put words in my mouth. Actually it was meant to bandaid fix infinites :)
That is your complaint, I just went through all your posts. You're complaining it's giving "free hits" to killers because survivors don't have 30 options for an out when being chased. The perk literally is meant to stop repeated looping through windows and force a change in pathing for the survivor. The fact that infinite looping isn't the problem it apparently was in the past doesn't make the perk outdated or out of place, it means infinite looping isn't the problem it was and Bamboozle still stops repeated looping through windows. So yes, your whole complaint amounts to "When killers use Bamboozle, they catch me."
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1675878#Comment_1675878
Did you not read the post. Due to map reworks there are no tiles to run to. Also with how theh are designing maps now there are barely any filler pallets to run to as well and usually they are down in 10-15 seconds anyways.
The entire point of Bamboozle is to stop loops and force the survivor into leaving or starting a failed loop. This complaint just amounts to "When killers use Bamboozle, they catch me." Yes, that's the point.
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I think instead his bottles should by default affect survivors with Oblivious. His entire theme is disorientation, between the cloud of haze, drunkenness and Bamboozle, adding in Oblivious while intoxicated would put him at the right place.
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@Slendy4321 said:
Swf is probably the reason I quit playing killer. It makes the game not fun, having everyone know about your location constantly. I previously read on here that they could lock specific perk slots till a certain amount of those Swf are dead. For instance
If you have a full group of friends you'll be locked to one perk. For every death it unlocks a perk slot. Of course you can choose what perks you have unlocked and what perks get unlocked via teammate death.
If you have 3 friends you'll start the trial with 2 perks and so forth.
I feel like this would solve problems of Swf. I'm down to see this added to the game
I just see this as "Never play with your friends."
Instead, you'd probably be better off limiting the amount of times 1 perk is used between the group, similar to this suggestion: I.E if you're a group of 4, only 1 copy of a perk can exist on one survivor at a time. That would force the group to run a plethora of different perks and allow the killer to zero in on who has what and who needs to be dealt with (Meg has Borrowed Time, she needs to be killed first).
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@Moundshroud said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1674780#Comment_1674780
I'm not adverse to the long post myself, but there has to be a point. You seems to think more words automatically add weight; they do not. You seem intent on arguing for punishments. Can you show us on the doll where the bad camper touched you? :) Look, the DEV have stated over and over again that camping (all kinds of camping) are valid choices. This means you aren't going to get the crack of the whip you want because the thing you want punished isn't a crime. Accept it; you will be happier in the long run.
What you argue for is both unreasonable and ultimately doesn't work anyway. The only way to ENCOURAGE Killers to stay away from the hook is to educate them on why it is generally in their best interest most of the time, or to weight things clearly with enticements so they make the choice you are hoping they will make. It has to remain a CHOICE. Rewards work. I often suggest that Killers who move away from the hook earn progress (sort of a Killer Bold) not unlike the Bold Survivors earn for staying in a Killer radius while not in chase. Both actions require a leap of faith and taking a risk of losing something valuable.
I'm not going to rehash that in depth now, because it isn't necessary. What is important is getting you to understand that you are trying to build a castle on a foundation of sand. Your very premise is wrong, and unsustainable. This is because you are operating with an entirely different perspective than the DEV and a lot of us. I play Killer and Survivor. I think camping is fine. It is just part of the game. I don't think it needs fixing at all. However, I was willing to engage in this discussion with you and make suggestions on how to achieve your goal (less camping) in a way that doesn't go contrary to established fact. The Dev have already placed a penalty in the game which hits people (to a degree) for staying close to the hook. Be grateful you got that much. Now it is time to add the carrot.
This condescending tone thing, you can drop it.
If you have a problem with verbose posts, fine, lets be succinct: as long as toxic methods of play are on par with non-toxic ones, players will choose that method that benefits/is least detrimental/risky to them. It's that simple. I'm arguing for a stick, sticks are necessary, provably so. If you think a small hit to end-game emblems is a "stick," then I don't know what to tell you other than, you're wrong.
If the Devs want to go the way of MTG's R&D, by all means, go for it. Developers don't have to address the concerns and frustrations of the community (of which, this is a reoccurring one), though if past attempts of that methodology are anything to rely on, it doesn't turnout well for the game or it's playerbase. You can keep cracking snarky remarks if you wish, but my concern is game/community health, not "wah, I'm having a bad time, fix it."
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@Chechia said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1674636#Comment_1674636
I understand what you mean but I honestly see it as a non issue. There are things people can do in this game that is unfun. But the game itself is interesting because everyone is free to decide how they want to play. I can't really see a way to prevent face camping. And it doesn't really happen that often that it is an issue in my eyes.
There are things that needs to be changed and things that only needs a change of mindset. I think this case is easily solved if we all be more chill about this game and the outcome of our games. Not every game will be brilliant but we won't face a camping bubba or an ebony nurse every single time we press "Ready".
Because of how the game is formatted, it is an issue. As long as survivors die at the same rate regardless of the proximity to the killer, there are going to be a decent percentage of games where that survivor gets camped. That camping, plus the frustrating perk/offering/add-on combinations is going to lead people to DC/Leave the game all together.
Understand that this isn't about just "camping," it's aimed at trying to disincentivize but one of many toxic activities that cause people to DC or leave. Mindsets aren't going to change on it, "Given the opportunity, player's will optimize the fun out of a game." Even though camping isn't optimal to "winning," the fact is that we have dailies, rifts and achievements. Maybe Camping won't net you that 4k 32,000 Bloodpoint bonus, but camping that last survivor to ensure your 50,000 BP rift is done, will. Some players just want to camp, because they know it's easier or because they enjoy the feeling of schadenfreude. Because Dead by Daylight is performance based, not objective based, 'losing' because you didn't do the typical thing doesn't really have a sting. However, for the guy being camped, who now can't "perform," the experience is agonizing.
Truthfully, as I stated earlier in this thread, hooked survivors being camped/ignored need to earn Altruism and Objective points (Altruism for time-on-hook, objective points for generator completion), so at the very least they feel as if their time isn't being completely wasted. That would mitigate the DCing for some, but the experience would still be unenjoyable and unproductive for the community. In order to change player behavior, certain behaviors have to be made clearly beneficial while others detrimental.
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@Moundshroud said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1674349#Comment_1674349
Nonsense. That was a whole lot of hot air so you could vent a spleen. I never attempted to justify anything one way or another. I don't have to do so. Whatever a Survivor or a Killer decides to do in the game (that isn't hacking or lag spikes) is automatically justified. Legal choices are valid choices, and none of my business. I could care less about your "feelings" on the matter. When I entered this thread I made a suggestion of how to achieve the goal that seems important to you, i.e. how to encourage Killers to camp less (any kind of camping). I pointed out that you have to make it worth the Killer's while so that they make the choice. I pointed out that punishments never have, and never will work.
Do no put words in my mouth, nor should you assume too much about my motives. I'm completely transparent about my bias and intentions. I feel communication in this type of venue is easier that way. I'm going to repeat a simple truth since you seem to miss it over and over again. Killers are not Bots; they are Players just like you and I. Their agency (free will) in the game is just as important to them as it is to anyone else. Their fun is likewise just as important to them as it would be to anyone else. The symmetry of the game has no bearing on that whatsoever. If you wish to encourage people to engage in a behavior, you make such behaviors more valuable than the alternative.
"Some of you responding seem to be laboring under this idea I want killers nerfed and it's so unfair to be a survivor. I play Survivor/Killer roughly 50/50. I want the toxic forms of both mitigated and mediated.."
The fact is you did try to justify camping, you even go on to explicitly justify it two sentences after saying you weren't. Your argument shifted from the "Players are agents who determine what is and isn't fun" to "If it's part of the game, it's fair game." That's not how game design or balancing works. That logic just leads to never patching gameplay again.
This nonsensical repetition of killer's being people is just dumb, to be frank with you. You're saying the Killer's fun and agency is just as important as the Survivors fun and agency, ok. Now what? Does that mean at no time Killers can't be buffed, because it affects the fun and agency of Survivors? You're not saying anything useful with that statement, only trying to equivocate that Killers and Survivors are the same. They're two sides within an asymmetrical game, there are going to be times when one side needs direct intervention to stop certain habits that only pertain to that specific side. I would bet money that if I looked through every patch note to date and the dev notes for them, I'd find changes specifically targeted at Killers or Survivors because the activities they were engaging in were directly detrimental to the opposing side (even if one side found it fun and "legal").
I pointed out to you that carrots require sticks, that means even if you nudge players in one direction with incentives, that's not enough to make them go down that path. The specific form of camping, Blatant Camping, that this discussion is about also happens to be one of the least Bloodpoint generating methods of playing killer. Adding in additional Bloodpoints to incentivize activity, when clearly the killer isn't directly concerned with their Bloodpoint earnings doesn't solve the issue (you'd earn far more BP a game chasing, hitting and using your powers).On top of that, there's nothing stopping a killer from Blatantly Camping after maxing out the Bloodpoints earned from your suggestion. That's why you need a stick to go with it, so that there is a clear, obvious, optimized and profitable choice and a clear, obvious, waste of time.
Lastly, this idea that punishments don't work is absurd. Damn near every online game has a form of punishment for unwanted activity, specifically because punishments do work (how often do you see Survivors permanently hide, knowing crows exist?). If you punished camping by giving survivors a random unhook + sprint burst + invulnerability, you bet you'd never see a killer camp after having it happen a few times. Obviously that ruins the entire balance of the game, which means you need something that works on the margins of behavior: I.E. a clear detriment to doing X. If you wanted to add in a clear benefit to avoiding X as well, then that expands those margins and strengthens the notion that doing X is detrimental. Nothing stops your suggestion being implemented alongside the one I put forth, but your suggestion cannot achieve anything on it's own.
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@Juya said:
As title say, every character would get the 3 teachable perk max level from the beginning and permanently equipped.
Along with being able to equip 4 other perks.
It not only makes more sense for every character to naturally know it's own perk and used them without limit/restraint(the 4 perk limit). It would make starting the game/ a new character more enjoyable.
I know this causes some issue due to perks like no miter ( and hex perks... maybe?), but I think no miter needs a rework anyway...🙄
If anyway want to bring suggestion/opinion don't be shy.... just don't be toxic. Thanks in advance for reading my post.
You're just power creeping to the max with this and trying to add some RPG Class element to the game.
If you're looking to make the perks for killers and survivors less bland and bump up power, you just add a 5th perk for killers (retuned, obviously) and add a split-perk mechanism for survivors (think all those useless/niche perks now being mixed and matched with eachother). This gives killers that extra synergy to do those niche/weird builds and allows survivors to combine things like Dance With Me and Light Weight.
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@Chechia said:
Instead of talking about why killers shouldn't be camping and what the devs can do against it we should rather ask ourselves this question: Why are killers camping? (toxic reasons are excluded from this)
The increased camping and tunneling has only one reason: gen speed.
I will guarantee you that if the devs will make the game more balanced and killers can actually go for the 12 hooks, there will be less campers in the game.
So instead of implemeting a punishment to a side that already is punished and needs to use everything what it has to win, the game should finially get a good rework.
Just a litte reminder at this point: one gen done is equal to 20% completion of the survivors objective while one hook is only 8% of the killers objective. Sure you might argue that one gen takes around 80 seconds but 80 seconds is nothing. One good chase from the survivor side is worth over half a gen (and this doesn't include taking the person to a hook and traveling time to stop a gen that can be extremely far away because of the RNG). And this isn't a 1 vs 1. While one survivor is being chased three others are free to do gens and the killer can't do anything about it. THIS needs to change and if it will change the campers will vanish. Not all of them ofc, because toxic people will always exist but most of the camping killers you see aren't toxic. They are just as frustrated of the game as you are in your post right now.
"Unlike many, I want camping to be in the game. However, I want it to be in the form of Bait & Ambush, not blatantly sitting there waiting for a survivor to die."
"I don't know about you, but when I play survivor, I play for the action and pressure, not to hold M1 for 3 minutes while I play walking simulator. So a camping killer does in fact harm more than just the hooked survivor, it's also lessening the overall game for the rest of the survivors..."
As I've repeated, I am not talking about generic camping, I'm talking about a specific, toxic form of it. This thread does not pertain to a fake roam, doubling back to catch someone. It's not about someone doing a close patrol, quickly running here and there to catch someone out of position. It's not about anything other than a killer blatantly camping, just sitting there, doing nothing, waiting for someone to approach.
Whatever issue you think generator repair speed is causing, it doesn't have anything to do with this specific kind of camping. Even if you rework how the game works on a base level, leaving in the ability to gain anything of substance from this form of camping just leads to toxic, unfun games. Killers need to be active or they need to be deceptive, being stationary and obvious is counter to their role.
Some of you responding seem to be laboring under this idea I want killers nerfed and it's so unfair to be a survivor. I play Survivor/Killer roughly 50/50. I want the toxic forms of both mitigated and mediated so that Survivors don't feel the need to bring every single get-out-of-jail option they can, while killers don't feel the need to bring several ways to expose survivors, moris and camp. The only way you do that is taking each issue and coming up with a workable solution: in this case, an anti-camping mechanism targeted at blatant camping.
Maybe generator repair speeds are too fast, maybe repair rates need to be nerfed for two and three survivor repairs, while four man repairs get buffed. Maybe allowing just some time for a killer to breathe would take the edge off and allow killers to actually impact the game without having to optimize every single action. That's a discussion completely separate to this, where one side has the power to remove.exe someone and potentially ruin their experience and the other three survivors.
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@Moundshroud said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1674066#Comment_1674066
But it isn't about that. The Killer is a Player too and his/her agency is just as important as the Survivors. They are not Bots, and we don't get to decide what is fun for us is more important. Thus, the only thing that will work is making it lucrative to move away.
I've said this before, so I'll repeat as many times as I have to: asymmetrical games require as asymmetrical solutions. Survivors and Killers each have different considerations to take into account. Killers want to be able to chase/hook/kill survivors without being endlessly harassed/looped/interfered with. Survivors want to be able to successfully escape chases/hooks and avoid dying, without being overtly oppressed.
Just because a killer likes killing and winning the game with a 4k does not excuse the existence of secret moris, which breaks the format and expectations of the game. Conversely, just because survivors like surviving and winning the game, does not mean 4 man flashlight DS+Unbreakable+Borrowed Time should be condoned. At some point the game has to function within a certain parameter for each side, so it's completely irrelevant whether or not a killer finds a particular thing "fun." If something you're trying to justify comes at the cost of game and community health, then the bar for that things has to be higher than "Well, these people like it, therefore."
This is specifically why I stated in the OP and in multiple posts within this thread that the distinction between Blatant Camping and "Bait & Ambush" needs to be made, where Blatant Camping is standing in plain view, with your terror radius, watching and daring the survivors come rescue the hooked man (typically the first one downed). "Bait & Ambush" is concealing yourself and your terror radius nearby the hooked man, using your powers/perks to setup ambushes. It's the plain difference between a Ghostface hiding behind a tree or a Trapper running Insidious and placing traps all around a specific hook vs a Leatherface dragging a survivor to a hill, hooking them, then standing on the hill till the survivor dies and/or others attempt to unhook.
If you want to try and argue anything resembling the latter is justified because "The killer is his own agent, he decides what is fun," then there is absolutely no rationale within the Dead by Daylight community to complain about 4 man SWF squads making the game a living train wreck for killers. These survivors are their own agents and they decide what is fun. That's obviously absurd though, so why even put that forth?
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@Moundshroud said:
The only thing which will "effectively" deter camping is to make it worth the Killer's while not to do it. Punishments for staying near the hook have never worked, nor will they ever work. I suggest creating a benefit to Killer BP or emblem advancement which rewards them for moving away from the Hook (when not in a chase), not unlike the "Bold" Survivors get for remaining in the Killer's Terror Radius. In this case, going further from the Hook and remaining away would earn. Likewise, a version of Barbecue & Chili (weaker) could be made base package so the Killers have something to move TOWARD whether an Aura shows the Survivor's briefly or lights up a Generator(s) currently being worked. Killers will be more likely to leave that "bird in the hand" if they have a direction to go. Do you see my point?
Camping is a valid tactic, and is sometimes the right move. More often than not, it only hurts the Killer's overall performance. Until we make it crystal clear through rewards that moving off has merit, pointless camping will remain. That is why it is more common among new Killers who don't really understand when/why they should camp versus when/why they shouldn't. I think all of you are presenting this in the wrong, self-involved light. This isn't about your fun as Survivors. It is about commonsense in application, i.e. what is rewarding and what is efficient for the person you want to NOT camp you.
To deter behavior, you need to provide both carrots and sticks. I have only come across one true punishment for staying around the hook and that was the first PBE, of which was just a binary Yes/No of whether the killer was or was not in range. Simply giving bloodpoints for doing what a killer should already be doing under most circumstances isn't the bullseye here. Giving killers more innate power probably will exacerbate the issue, allowing them to have a weaker BBQ&C will just tell experienced killers whether or not camping is the move. Whatever carrots you want to give the killer, the fact is the stick has to be tied to standing with the hooked survivor, otherwise it's free bloodpoints/auras up until you want to camp.
If you read the post, you'd know I am not contesting "camping as a tactic," it's blatant camping as your sole method of playing. It doesn't matter if the killer's performance is or is not hampered more often than not, that's only a point in the direction of making the act not worth it in the first place. The fact is that it is about the fun of survivors, as the next poster points out.
@arcnkd said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/197148/what-to-solve-blatant-camping-heres-how
I'll say it again: camping is only harmful to the Survivor unfortunate enough to have become the victim; effectively removing them from the game and denying them bloodpoints.
A good group of Survivors, will work on generators while the killer camps - knocking out several before either attempting to save before state change; or choosing to leave the hooked Survivor to buy more time and knock out most if not all the remaining generators depending on point in match. The huge problem is Survivors will kill themselves on the hook immediately instead of struggling it out and buying their team that time - which often results in camping feeling like it is toxic to the entire time when it is really the 'I quit' Survivor mentality when they get placed in an unfun situation.
Camping can be combated by team-rushing the hook and even solo-rushing or trading your place on the hook to buy even more time for the rest of the team, unless it is a one-hit down killer like Bubba that makes you have to think and weigh your chances more carefully because he can multi-insta-down. Also, killers that camp are also the killers that either: do not care about emblems or pips or ranks; or are trying to derank themselves.
The problem is the game has a plague about it in the form of a Survivor vs. Survivor Team vs. Killer mentality -- where Survivors care more about their own individual escaping than making sure members of their team are able to Survive -- and that isn't the Survivors fault. That is on the Devs for designing the reward system to not reward you based on team gameplay: such as post-match awarding something like 25% of the individual bloodpoints scored by teammates during that match, which would encourage players to help their team make as many plays as possible instead of worrying about themselves first and foremost.
Which is why I have also stated that survivors being camped need to gain Altruism and Objective points. That lessens the frustration of the act and at least gives the incentive and satisfaction that surviving as long on the hook as possible means getting something out the game and the rest of the survivors leaving (I.E. not DCing immediately).
However, this whole concept of "Good X do Y, therefore" is neither a counterpoint or a rebuttal when talking about an inherently toxic, counter-intuitive action. It doesn't matter if "Good Survivors do Gens," bad killers let survivors do gens. I don't know about you, but when I play survivor, I play for the action and pressure, not to hold M1 for 3 minutes while I play walking simulator. So a camping killer does in fact harm more than just the hooked survivor, it's also lessening the overall game for the rest of the survivors, whether or not three escape and one dies. As with the first reply in this post, when you want to promote one action and deter another, you need both carrots and sticks. If the game was geared to more team-based plays and rewards, the altruism aspect of the game would be intensified, making hook saves more valuable and therefore, camping more lucrative.
@Orion said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1673191#Comment_1673191
Yes, I did. What you don't get is that I'm not making any arguments, I am telling you what actually happened when these ideas were tried. Not an idealized scenario, not even a hypothetical scenario, but the very real scenario that happened.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1673193#Comment_1673193
Survivors showed up without triggering the chase conditions. That's where the abuse lies. They don't have to trigger the chase conditions if they don't want to since one of the conditions is literally that they're sprinting within the killer's line of sight and within a certain distance from the killer. Your solution does not and cannot account for that.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1673197#Comment_1673197
See above, this is not an argument, it is me telling you what happened. I'm not going to reply here again unless I get bored, but anyone who's been here a while can tell you that this is the same idea that everyone always suggests and has been objectively proven to be a bad idea.
Survivors already show up to hooked survivors and wait out the killer to leave or taunt them to chase. You've lost the plot here, the issue is blatant standing next to a survivor and camping the entire game, 10m is roughly a 3sec walk for almost any killer (which is also roughly the minimum safest distance for an unhook) and the complaint/criticism here is that survivors will show up and somehow ring the killer around the hook in just the right manner to never engage a chase. This is forgetting that the PBE you said was a problem occurred in September of 2016 when the only available killers were Trapper, Wraith and Billy, some of the easiest to kite killers in the game. "Sprint Burst" was the only exhaust perk in the game and it's highest tier only left it off cooldown for 20 seconds and it recharged even while running.
What was being abused wasn't just the hook-distance mechanism, but also the lack of mobile killers while the most mobile survivor perk had an absurdly low cooldown that could be used effectively ad-infinitum. So everything that created the framework for that abuse (Lack of mobile trappers, high mobility on low cooldown, universally used mobility perk) has been removed or solved within the game. Between the Terror-radius now being a qualifier (with many killers now being able to remove it), a ~3 buffer zone for most killers, a chase breaking the effect and survivors being unable to infinitely kite, the problem you're pointing out can't exist in this form.
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@Orion said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1673141#Comment_1673141
And they were also just showing up to force the killer into a lose/lose situation, like I said. I should know, I was there.
Regardless, no tweaks can solve the main issue this suggestion had, which is that survivors could (and did) easily abuse it.
The lose-lose situation was caused by the permanent reduction in the death progression due to distance being the only qualifier for the killer. It's that binary "Is the killer within range: Yes or No" that makes it profitable for a survivor to show up and force the killer to chase, as now the killer must choose to give up a hook and chase, leave and hope to find the other 2 survivors or chase and risk gens being completed.
Without that binary and instead using a true/false, you instead get in that exact scenario:
"Is the Hooked Survivor:
- Within the terror radius: True
- Within 10m of the killer: True
And
Is the Killer:
- Currently in Chase: True"
With that change, the survivors can't abuse the mechanism by just showing up, there is no lose-lose for the killer. The moment a survivor shows up and taunts a chase, Entity's Displeasure disappears. It would be no different than things are today when a survivor taunts a killer to give chase, the timer would still be the same, the survivor would still be delaying the killer on purpose. It's only when the killer camps and no survivors show up does Entity's Displeasure activate. So where does the abuse exist in this framework?
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@Orion said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1673017#Comment_1673017
They didn't have to loop (although they did). Merely showing up forced the killer into a lose/lose situation (let the survivor be unhooked or let all gens be repaired), which is absurd. They also tried having the first hook stage be infinite (though self-unhooking still progressed it by the normal amount), which failed.
Unfortunately, as this was the very first PTB, back in 2016, I've no idea where to find official patch notes. Best I can do is the wiki, though it doesn't mention the tweaks and other attempts.
"new mechanic:
- slowed-down the Entity progression on the Hook if the Killer remained within a certain proximity of it.
It was their first attempt to create and implement an anti-camping mechanic. Since the new Mechanic got abused too heavily by Survivors purposefully kiting the Killer around their hooked teammate, the Developers disabled the Mechanic again."
So, like I thought, the survivors were just keeping the Killer within range of the hooked survivors, forcing a reduced death progression. Unless someone can show me the PBE notes at the time, it seems that there was only a distance requirement: In-Chase and Terror Radius were not part of this iteration. Specifically why I placed terror-radius and not in an active chase was for that very reason, if distance is the only requirement then it's a given it's going to be abused. I feel that the missing components in that kind of anti-camping mechanism are what I originally put forth, with some additional modifiers:
Entity's Displeasure: Hooked Survivors while within your terror radius and 10m of you have reduced death progression shortly after being hooked, while you're not in chase. Entity's Displeasure Is deactivated upon entering a chase, Entity's Displeasure will reactivate after spending a total of 10 seconds near a hooked survivor after exiting a chase. Entity's Displeasure is not in effect when two or more survivors are on hook or during End-Game Collapse.
This solves for the looping/kiting/stalling of survivors, which now cannot endlessly kite the killer around and force a permanent reduction in the death timer It keeps killers from standing directly near a single hooked survivor, but rewards getting at least two hooks then camping. It also allows for forcible plays end-game, catching a survivor and forcing the remaining survivors to make a choice. It keeps open the ability for stealth power/perk killers to utilize Bait & Switch strategies without punishment.
@The_Krapper said:
Alot of the ideas people post on here have been tried in very old ptbs and even though some of the ideas sound good people always find a way to abuse them and cause it to not be in the game, survivors have no one to blame but themselves for something like this not already being implemented because everything that was tried to prevent camping was abused in the old days
Having just went through both the PBE and Patch Notes for the game, I only found one iteration of anti-camping popping up in the first PBE like Orion stated. That version simply made it so the killer had to be within a certain distance and nothing else. My version places several conditions, all of which combined are what constitutes blatant camping. The only abuse this could cause would be survivors actively get someone thrown on a hook and then ignore them until End-game collapse. However, that all depends on whether or not a killer is going to actively camp to begin with and the whole point is to punish the activity.
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@Orion said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1672693#Comment_1672693
It was based on distance and was disabled if survivors were in the same radius or if the killer was in a chase. The TR thing was not tried, I misspoke. However, given the findings, the TR would just make it worse, because the problem wasn't killers, it was survivors.
If you have the specific patch, I'd like to read it. The only way I can think this would be abusable (the past iteration) would be that the distance was too high and that survivors would loop in and out of chase just outside the range necessary for them to deactivate the mechanism, while keeping the killer within it, so that the hooked survivor was in a permanent state of reduced death progression. That's solved by having a deactivation timer that spans further than the end of a chase/reactivation timer of being within range for an accumulated amount of time and a smaller distance (If too large to begin with).
@batax90 said:
How about doing gen as a counter i know this sound terrible but listen when all gen are done you can escape and most of the time 1 or 2 gen are done before the killer get is first down so if you tell me withing 2 minute you cant do 3 or 4 gen then you dont know how to press M1 as a survivor
I know this may come as a shock to you, but I'm not an idiot and do the generators the moment I figure out the killer is blatantly camping. Also, unless I'm SFW (and I only play with either my wife or my buddy), there's no way of conveying this to any of the other survivors, so yes, I will certainly tell you that within 2 minutes I cannot do 3-4 gens by myself. The post isn't a "wah, this sucks" complaint, it's about the toxic nature of blatant camping, from a gameplay, thematic and player experience view: killers who don't actively chase turn games into Press M1 and Walk Simulators (literally your response); Players who are camped gain nothing for their 2 minutes of agony.
@StevePerryPsychOut said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1672886#Comment_1672886
This only exacerbates the issue with the gulf between power of solo survivors and SWF. 3 solo survivors have no way to know is a killer is camping if he is just outside of kindred range, or if the individual survivors are not running kindred. SoloQ is already seriously suffering in the current state of the game, and camping doesn't really hurt a competent SWF, which according to most killer stans is what kills the game for them. So why does camping need to be a viable strategy when it's just a "rich get richer, poor get poorer" strategy?
This is effectively the entire issue summed in one paragraph. The "Optimized" method of playing DbD is a 4 man survivor team, with everyone carrying specific perks, items and making specific callouts, all within a VoiP. Every counter to the OP and camping issue (aside from one) has been "Just work with your team/It's dangerous to go alone, Take This!" Blatant camping punishes Solo survivors, it does nothing to SWF. SWF, fully optimized, enrages killers and makes the killer demographic have to goto extremes to deal with them (Devour Hope+Mori+One Hit Down Killer). These killers now face the Solo survivors and still camp, but now down you immediately and/or kill you out of nowhere. The rebuttal cannot simply be "Play better and with these perks 24/7."
@MrLimonka said:
This is a very good idea - the chasing condition is important here.
Sadly, the entitled killer mains will tell you that this is "abusable" without any explanations, while it is obviously not - pretty sad..
It is abusable if not implemented correctly, that's why I worded it as I did. The mechanism has to actually punish blatant camping, not simply being within a general range.
@Xzan said:
What about maps with multiple floors?
While I don't know how BHVR codes it's engine, I can't imagine them having an issue with making a more oval/oblique bubble for distance.
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@ToxicMyers said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/197148/what-to-solve-blatant-camping-heres-how
Or, you could always, run perks to counter it, and it shouldn't be an issue because some of these are meta. here's my list from perks to choose from if you that butt hurt about camping
- DS/UB/SG every killer in the world will hate you if you abuse it but if you use it to its intented purpose (anti tunneling), you should be just dandy
- BT it works against every killer but stealth killers and it a free health state for the unhooked
- Kindred lets your teammates know if you are being camped and tell them to rush gens unless you in a swf where you don't need this
- deliverance very good with very smol pp but requires you to get an unhook
I'm pretty sure there are other but you get the point. You have the tools you need. If you have none of these perks rush gens if you find out its a face camper.
Also did you know that when survivors try to unhook a camped survivor, thats technically the bait, the ambush is when you get grabbed. Also you say that camping being punished through bloodpoints and emblems doesn't matter but in the next goddamn paragraph you say "nor should they be rewarded with ensured kills/ bloodpoints. Now, idk about you, but the game ain't over till Jane sings and you say ensured kill like saying camping actually 100% is a guaranteed kill. That's like saying gen rushing is a guaranteed win. Nothing in this world is free or guaranteed without conditions, and i tell you a good team hell even one good player could probably get someone off of that hook easy. Now move along, cowpoke, you should be getting your anti camping build ready.
"If the excuse to not address it is going to be "Only some killer's can reliably camp/Bring this special perk," then it really just amounts to saying nothing in response. Not every player has X/Y/Z perk and just because some killers can execute a toxic method of playing a game doesn't mean that method should go unaddressed. The game is asymmetrical, with survivors being on the none-low end of information, the expectation for survivors to predict and combat something through their perks to stop one particular (toxic/antithetical) kind of play isn't a legitimate expectation. Killers being on the move and making active plays however is a reasonable expectation, unless they already setup a build to ambush hooked survivors."
Now, pardner, I must inform you the folly of assuming one's circumstances, as you can always fabricate the notion of your advantage. Translated: You can always just say "well, if you had just brought X/Y/Z, you'd have been able to deal with A/B/C, duh," forgetting that survivors neither know the killer or anything about the player themselves before jumping into a game. You're literally asking people to have the foresight to buy and level the right survivors, then build the perfect build with those perks to counter a specific playstyle with precision.
As an aside, an ambush is by definition a surprise attack from a concealed position. The fact that you're blatantly visible with a massive terror radius means it's not a Bait & Ambush, it's just baiting and setting up shop. Not every single player has the perks or the team to counteract this method play and it has the high potential to ruin one player's game, eating up their time and getting zero out of it.
@Orion said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1672328#Comment_1672328
Longer time till death on hook and if it wasn't done as I laid out, then of course it would be abused. I forgot to add while not in chase, however, but this isn't something that can just be abused, unless the abuse is in the form of constantly waiting "just out of range" and playing the waiting game with the killer: Hence terror radius, distance and not being in chase are the prerequisites. If you loser your terror radius, the effect doesn't kick in. If you're out of the distance it doesn't kick in. If you start a chase while close, it doesn't kick in.
Yup, it was tried exactly as you laid out and abused by the survivors because they did, in fact, wait just out of range.
So the actual mechanism was, in fact, one that required the hooked survivor to be:
- Within the killer’s terror radius and within a minimum distance from the killer
- Not within the terror radius and distance of a killer in an active chase
I'd like to see that patch, because I'm sure the conditions weren't that and were most likely flat distance, without chase or terror radius being prerequisites.
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@undoredo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/197148/what-to-solve-blatant-camping-heres-how
Yeah, of course; camping seems annoying and unfair. But think of it this way:
If you camp someone all the way to death hook, the killer wastes a bunch of time when other survivors do gens, given that the survivor doesn't get saved. If the survivors do wanna save that person, than tank a hit and get the save, or do a 1:1. Bait the killer. Figure it out. It's a strategy with pros and cons.
I don't object to that change, however. Camping can be lame, I suppose, and that could be a good nerf.
I've already thought of it that way, it's in the post.
Unlike many, I want camping to be in the game. However, I want it to be in the form of Bait & Ambush, not blatantly sitting there waiting for a survivor to die. Not only because it's maddening to be the one on the hook (Hooked survivors being camped should really be earning Altruism Points at minimum), but being the survivor not on the hook just makes the game less enjoyable: kind of defeats the purpose of the game holding M1 with no pressure. Additionally, this whole "get a stick and draw out a plan with other survivors" thing doesn't work, innately. Unless everyone is running Kindred and/or Bond (an additional perk alongside those already suggested), there's no method of coordination that isn't SWF.
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@Orion said:
What's "reduced death progression"? If it's what I think, this was already tried and abused by survivors in the very first PTB.
Longer time till death on hook and if it wasn't done as I laid out, then of course it would be abused. I forgot to add while not in chase, however, but this isn't something that can just be abused, unless the abuse is in the form of constantly waiting "just out of range" and playing the waiting game with the killer: Hence terror radius, distance and not being in chase are the prerequisites. If you loser your terror radius, the effect doesn't kick in. If you're out of the distance it doesn't kick in. If you start a chase while close, it doesn't kick in.
@PanicSquid said:
There is no need. Only killers with an insta-down can reliably camp a survivor. (Looking at you Bubba). With good coordination survivors can rescue a camped friend without adding any perks into the mix. If you can use Borrowed Time, it can be done solo. Desperate Measures could also be amazing in breaking a camp.
Tl;dr: Teamwork or perks can reliably solve this problem.
Incorrect, it's absolutely needed. A less toxic community/play pattern means more overall enjoyable games and that leads to a healthier, more robust community. That's something devs in all games need to promote.
If the excuse to not address it is going to be "Only some killer's can reliably camp/Bring this special perk," then it really just amounts to saying nothing in response. Not every player has X/Y/Z perk and just because some killers can execute a toxic method of playing a game doesn't mean that method should go unaddressed. The game is asymmetrical, with survivors being on the none-low end of information, the expectation for survivors to predict and combat something through their perks to stop one particular (toxic/antithetical) kind of play isn't a legitimate expectation. Killers being on the move and making active plays however is a reasonable expectation, unless they already setup a build to ambush hooked survivors.
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@Raptorrotas said:
My opinion is that "Boring" and "Unfair" are catchwords used to not say "too strong". Most complains boil down to the killer being able to down survivors faster than other "more fair" killers.
Did you ever see those ideas to "fix" the Spirit? "Remove her invisibility and maker her see even less" - definitely just a small QoL tweak for survivors. /facepalm
You cant fix the "boring" or "unfair" out of killers without nerfing them.
Sure you can.
Oppressive killers are almost always no counter-play, so you just add in counter-play. Are you saying a periodic "flicker" while phased would be the absolute end for Spirit?
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Strong is relative.
What I think you mean is that any killer should, in any random game with equally skilled survivors, be able to kill at least 2 survivors with minor mistakes made on each side.
The "Strong" killers are really just the oppressive ones, whose kits let them secure kills while their perks keep the map at bay: I.E. Spirit shows up out of no where and you can't search for ruin. If you want to balance out the powers in some of these killers you'd so something along these lines:
Weak Killers:
Trapper: Increase base carry capacity to 2. Decrease trap setting time. Increase Trap disarm time.
Clown: Increase vault speed, Survivors gain oblivious while intoxicated.
Wraith: Faster exit out of cloak, higher transparency at a distance.
"Strong" Killers:
Spirit: "Flicker" while phased.
Slinger: Longer recovery from missed shots.
Pyramid Head: Just rework him.
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Not only would it create a huge imbalance, it would ruin the entire feel and flavor of the game.
Dead by Daylight is supposed to be an asymmetrical Horror/Thriller PvP, not a high school dunkfest on the kid whose not part of "the group".
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So let's review this real quick.
The counter to Undying + Any Hex is to:
*Blow 1 Perk Slot
*Check for hex debuffs
*Search the entire map for every lit totem
*Remember those totem locations and individually cleanse them until the + Hex has been taken care of.
This is not a counter, this is literally what you have to do anyway, minus blowing a perk slot.
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@Predator3174PL said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1666800#Comment_1666800
There is a reason why some killers are less used than others.
Not all killers are fun to play as in red ranks. Legion maybe isn't good at higher ranks, but he is still fun to play as and personally, I don't mind playing against him as a survivor. Legion just does what he was designed for
Not all killers are as fun to play against in red ranks. The knife cuts both ways.
I reiterated the point several times already, if DCers are issue, do what mitigates the issue.
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@Katzengott said:
I would take a 5th perk for using no addons anytime.
But it could also break the balance against solos if killers stack another slowdown perk. Or just NOED.
You would just retune the perks.
Killers want and need options, there's zero stopping the devs from reducing certain perks for that reason. Half the reason why perks need to be as power-packed as they are is due to having only 4 slots.
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@Godot said:
There's no way in hell I want something like this. It would be game breaking.
I'm simply curious. What kind of builds would exist with a 5th perk slot, for both sides?
Would you just place BBQ&Chili or WGLF on the 5th slot always? Would you try new, interesting combos?
For Killers: All Kinds
For survivors, it's just becomes the top 5 most useful-in-all-scenarios perks.
If 5 perks were to be implemented, it'd be for killers and come with a rebalancing.
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Already been saying that.
The game is an asymmetrical pvp, Killers need additional power/options. You give them this, you can better balance killer perks.(each individual perk won't have to be so packed/intense.) Rework several of the weak/niche survivor perks and generic perks into "split-perks" that can be combined in one slot and survivors will be able to soft-counter a wider variety of killers, negating the need for hard escape perks like Dead Hard or Decisive Strike to exist in their current iterations.