Lexilogo
Lexilogo
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- Lexilogo
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WGLF needs:
1 stack for a 32K game
2 stacks on a 16K game
3 stacks on a 12K game
4 stacks on a 8K game
To be worth +8000 Bloodpoints in a match. Prove Thyself will never, ever earn that many Bloodpoints for you in a single match.
Prove Thyself IS a great Perk but We're Gonna Live Forever played competently will always earn you more BP than Prove Thyself.
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Always good to see bad Perks getting life breathed into them.
Also, as a Killer main, I am in no way complaining about most of these being Survivor perks- Survivor perk balance is IMO undeniably worse than Killer's perk balance. Both have their fair share of garbage that needs to be looked at but Killer's perks are IMO in a healthier state.
Survivors being less predictable with their Perk selection is also just a big thing I want to see happen- Stuff like Dead Hard would be a lot more impressive and effective if I didn't always expect to see it.
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You're not the first person to suggest swapping Waterlogged Shoe and Rusty Shackle's rarities.
I do understand why BHVR designated it as an UR, probably because of its relative complexity. An addon that increases your movespeed is pretty huge, but it's definitely a bad Ultra Rare especially because it pretty much just turns you into a worse Freddy.
I'm personally an advocate of keeping Rusty Shackles where it is and changing Waterlogged Shoe to be worthy of the Ultra Rare status, though. I think Hag having an Ultra Rare that makes her no longer a 110% Killer is cool, it's just a shame it doesn't work out in practice.
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Spine Chill, I'll just list the reasons why I think the Perk's better:
- No cooldown
- Knowing that the Killer is facing in your direction is more valuable information than getting a better bead on where the Killer is. Good gamesense can already allow you to reliably predict what 45 degree direction the Killer will likely approach you from, but Spine Chill allows you to easily distinguish between a Killer patrolling near you and a Killer patrolling towards you
- Increased action speeds, which while mostly insignificant is still an undeniable bonus and the skillcheck odds can actually be a big deal if you're good at getting Greats
- Can be used as a perk in chase to try and counter mindgames thanks to the lack of a cooldown
- Will always work regardless of what direction your camera's facing, while Premonition won't warn you if you're not looking in the Killer's direction already
Pretty much the only real advantage Premonition has over it I can think of is that it has less potential Killer counterplay, but I'm not sure any Killer will moonwalk towards a gen on the offchance someone's running Spine Chill, and it's pretty much impossible to tell whether or not a Survivor is running it to be sure.
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Dead By Daylight: Battle Royale is announced, for one day only it's 40 Survivors versus ten Killers.
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Features like this are generally "locked in" when a game launches and won't ever be changed.
If you implemented this, how many Survivor mains would (rightfully) come to the forums and complain that now, they can't play the character they like, quite probably a character they bought, because they're being handicapped by a Perk they dislike?
Yes, Survivors are essentially skins, but if people invest into skins, pulling the rug out from under them and implementing gameplay changes to them causes huge unnecessary discord.
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@johnmwarner said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1187001#Comment_1187001
Why do people keep saying this on 3/31 and yes I know time zones but BHVR is in the same time zone as me so...
They were probably using Greenwich Mean Time or a similar timezone for measurements, here in the UK it was pretty much dead on April 1st when the announcement came out.
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Check the date.
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@Reborn2020 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1185586#Comment_1185586
No its not like that about rules. They try to balance it out for both sides. Still the most important part which is gameplay doesnt change.
Standard high rank games? Where ? I highly doubt you can find any.
Well, of course you won't find any if you keep invoking a No True Scotsman and say "no, those Rank 1 players with thousands of hours of experience don't count". (also, giving a Survivor team a second chance in public matches is in no way an indication of being "unskilled" ESPECIALLY if the player in question 4Ks anyway)
It doesn't matter if they try to balance it out for both sides, I'm sure they do, but when you have that many rules that change the game's perk meta, how players approach a match, and how quickly matches end, it's no longer the same game of Dead By Daylight and is FAR less useful to analyse the overall state of the game.
As another comparison, Team Fortress 2's most popular competitive mode is 6 versus 6, even though pretty much all regular matches involve far more players. Even though this is also 100% balanced between teams, both sides only having 6 players to work with dramatically changes which roles and weapons are the most powerful.
"the most important part which is gameplay doesnt change" Maybe the chasing mechanics and so on don't change but the flow of a match is THE single most important thing about this game and that changes incredibly.
Also, considering Otzdarva was namedropped, and you seemingly made some kind of distinction between English/Russian streamers, I'll throw this out there:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0KppqkxnIoThis video features footage of him winning a tournament game and he dissects the match play-by-play explaining his decisions. (and, as a bonus, has a lot of examples of how Otzdarva deviates from normal strategies because of the tournament's ruleset) Has Otzdarva now met your standards for being a "real" high-level player, or do true Scotsmen still never put sugar in their porridge?
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I haven't actually tried this yet, but I kind of want to attempt this Pig setup:
Interlocking Razor, Crate of Gears
Unnerving Presence, Hex: Huntress Lullaby, Overcharge, Distressing
For bonus guilt, use after a rank reset and with map offerings to get tiny maps like Hawkins/The Game.
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I think pretty much anyone would agree an Ebony Mori is stronger than a Skeleton Key, yes.
Some suggestions for how they could be changed to make them better:
-Compensation BP for Survivors who are mori'd and Killers who end up with key escapes
-Keys having an opening time on the Hatch, something like 5-10 seconds with an unlocking noise being made for the duration so keys aren't quite a get out of jail free card in a chase
-Closing the Hatch if it's been opened with a Key no longer triggers the Endgame Collapse
-A new Status Effect revealing when Survivors can be mori'd (call it Marked For Death or something) so Survivors have more warning when they're in such extreme danger
-Ivory/Ebony Moris allows you to mori 1/unlimited Survivors if either that Survivor has already been hooked twice, or if a total of 5 hook states have been completed across the game (so, 1 death and two hooks is your minimum).
That's what I would do, after thinking about it for a bit. I think these changes would keep these items' high potentials (keys can still get a 4escape and moris can still get a 4k) BUT lowering their potential for "get a win out of a bad play" kind of scenarios and being more about winning more.
An Ebony Mori still gives you an undeniable advantage and might win you a game where you ordinarily would've lost, but don't let you obliterate a Survivor out of a game early (which is a huuuge advantage and a jerk move for the Survivor) and are more about winning more when you've already got the advantage. If someone gets salty about an Ebony Mori people can point out they were probably starting to lose the game anyway.
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Trapper's the game's mascot, he's relatively difficult to screw up compared to the other free Killers (Wraith can have his Wailing Bell misused by newbies, Hillbilly can crash with his saw, Huntress can miss hatchets and Nurse can miss everything), his Power carries with it zero explicit downsides, his Power is good for learning the game in general, and works great against low rank Survivors without feeling oppressive or like its carrying you through matches.
I would also argue he's got good teachables, Agitation and Brutal Strength are both decent choices especially for new players.
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April 2nd: For the purposes of balance between the Killer/Survivor playerbase, today's Shrine will be Spies From The Shadows!
Also I have to agree with others, it's 24 hours, mate. The Shrine of Secrets always has a low chance to give you what you want/need anyway and works on a long-term currency, it's not like it's some ultra-vital service you need constant access to. If they replaced the entire Bloodweb with Moldy Oaks then sure, I'd understand getting angry at an important feature being denied for the purposes of a joke, but the Shrine of Secrets is not an ultra-important pillar of the game.
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Goth would make more sense as a cosmetic, not as a character. Nea is already a street punk type.
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Clown and LF are the ones in most need of a buff but I think practically speaking Trapper could, relatively easily, be given a lot more potential than he has now for redrank play especially without too much work on BHVR's part.
Like many Trapper mains have been saying for ages, buffing his base Beartrap carrying capacity to 2 would go a long way for freeing up his addon choices and improving his overall state. As would changing Beartrap spawns so they aren't so scattered, making self-escape times from Beartraps a fixed value instead of RNG, and perhaps giving him new addons to make him more unpredictable- I've always wanted a Rare/Very Rare that allows him to walk through his own traps without triggering them.
Characters like Clown, Legion, LF, and Plague need serious rethinks, but a character like Trapper could perform very well with some relatively minor changes.
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Sorry, I will have to say that the gameplay changes in DbD Tournaments ARE significant enough that they need to be heavily taken into account.
The #1 thing is that the goal is to earn BP, NOT to kill Survivors or escape the match. That change alone hugely changes how you view the game's Perks and which should be effective. Enduring + Spirit Fury is a good combo in regular play, suicide in a tournament, for example.
I also don't know about this specific tournament's rules, but I have heard that there's also limitations on Survivors gen repairs to avoid genrushing, which is REALLY huge. IIRC, don't the Tournament rules restrict the first few Generator repairs to Healthy survivors only?
Plus, I've also heard about things like anti-tunnelling/camping rules, so if someone gets unhooked you have to respect it and go for the rescuer, so Perks like Borrowed Time aren't really a thing in tournaments... Are you starting to see the problem here with how much some tournament rules change how the game's played?
Tournaments are not useless for information on the state of the game but I would highly recommend watching standard, high rank public matches instead of tournament play for game analysis. You can analyse tournaments and get good takeaways from them, but you NEED to constantly take into account the differing player motivations from standard play and the limitations of the tournament's rules, and the game's overall balance state certainly can't really be determined with all the artificial restrictions.
At least, beyond criticising the game for apparently needing so many artificial restrictions for people to be capable of making Dead by Daylight tournaments that are fun to watch. Things like map restrictions aren't a big deal but DbD tournaments often have lists of artifiical limitations as long as your arm.
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It's because using Insidious for its intended purpose (crazy, galaxy brain mindgames) is pretty much impossible, and using it for camping a hook is incredibly easy.
And who's the best camper? Bubba, because one of the huge benefits of his power is that it can instadown Survivors enmasse if they're close together. Bingo, you get a match made in Texas.
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I actually think Oni might be in the same category as someone like Hag who has become fully devoid of humanity. His Mori involves ripping out a Survivor's tongue at the end, which is something he only did to people who used their speech to dishonor his name- So why exactly would he do it to random Survivors?
IMO given his physical alterations, much like the Hag his thought process is probably unrecognisable and he's essentially just going through the motions that he was when massacring people. He slaughters people with his kanabo and rips out tongues but is no longer capable of having a motivation to do so, he just keeps doing it endlessly and is stuck in the same furious, raging state forever.
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I had a game maybe a week or so ago as Doctor on the new Saloon map. One of the Survivors had used a Map Offering for it, poor bastard.
I ended up mostly stomping but for the last guy standing, I figured I'd show mercy, seeing as they'd gotten very unlucky with the map + killer combination, I enjoyed the match and they generally played well- Even if they hadn't been able to find the hatch in the fair amount of time they were the last one standing. I smack them, bring them over to a hook, shake "no", then stomp off with them round the back of the saloon looking for the hatch.
I make an entire lap around the map not being able to find the thing, even checking the 2nd floor of the saloon in desperation (even though hatches obviously are on ground level) and eventually manage to figure out that it was hiding underneath the noose platform in the center of the map. Just as I'm done in postgame chat gging and mentioning "oh, and sorry for that map + killer combo, you guys got super unlucky" it turns out one of the other Survivors had been spectating that entire time and was laughing about the hatch location.
The other guy on my back also had no idea where the hatch was (despite that hatch technically being in open view, all 3 of us totally missed it) and the three of us laughed about it for a little while in postgame chat.
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@Joelwino said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1185217#Comment_1185217
What if thy were temporarily disabled until they got reworked? Like how event offerings get disabled but not deleted when the event ends? Or like how the moon offerings are technically still in the game but unusable?
@Saitamfed said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1185217#Comment_1185217
Disabling is not the same as removing...
To start, I have to clarify that OP made no distinction between the two and was just saying "remove them".
Disabling them would be relatively more reasonable but still opens up many issues of community backlash, certain Achievements becoming impossible, ecetera.
Regardless of what you think of Moris and Keys, I don't think you can argue they are so incredibly gamebreaking that temporarily disabling them all until a rework comes is particularly reasonable either, as that's also quite an extreme reaction.
It also comes with a major seperate issue: When are you gonna find a good way to rework them? Disabling items that are a pretty core mechanic of the game, with no clear timeframe as to when they'll become avaliable again and you having no idea when your team is going to come up with a rework that'll get them into an acceptable state is a bad idea.
It'd make more sense to keep them as is, and when one does find a way to rework them, just implement that with no disabling period inbetween.
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If you're good it should be hard enough for that Myers to get to EW II let alone EW III with the way higher Evil requirement. And, as people are saying, lockers stop him from doing a Mori with Tombstone addons.
It should also be noted that you gave that guy their Evil Incarnate achievement if they didn't have it already, so thanks for your service. No clue why they brought Remember Me and Blood Warden for an Evil Incarnate run but to each their own, I guess.
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Can't throw hatchets, only ranged weapon is a stupid slingshot that I can't aim properly, the Survivor playerbase seem dumb as rocks and never make interesting plays, I apparently have to BUILD everything myself, and the Beartrap equivalent doesn't even inflict damage.
Seriously, I've seen lots of people talk about the axe murderer experience with Animal Crossing, but the truth is it's suuper jank. The only weapon that works even remotely well for attacking Survivors in that game is the bug net. 0/10
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@smartemarte said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1185138#Comment_1185138
what the hell can you break by disabling two items ?? you'd have to be awful at code to manage to do that
No, it might break other stuff. If you remove the reference for "key" from your game, all the stuff in your game that references "key" will now cause serious errors or crashes because the game now has no idea what "key" is supposed to be and yet the code's telling it to get a reference to "key".
Anyway, such a discussion isn't really the point. Disabling moris/keys would be a pretty simple endeavour from a work POV, but what about all the people who invested BP into them, use them, ecetera? There's a LOT of new design considerations.
There's a reason why a game designer's solution to something is almost never "delet it!!!" and such an action is essentially the nuclear option for a feature deemed completely unworkable.
The simple reason why these addons exist is for match variance. The idea is that URs are, well, ultra rare, but give a significant advantage and make you feel more powerful than usual for a match.
The question is how much is too much, and what's tolerable for both sides. How do you make Ebony Moris feel like a powertrip for the Killer without making the Survivor feel like the match was pointless? How do you make Keys feel like a clutch escape and special without the Killer feeling cheated?
Regardless of what you think the answer is, it's a discussion that goes deeper than "just remove them lol" and simplifying it to that will accomplish nothing except get people to rightfully ignore what you're saying.
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"Change my mind" posts are an inherently negative archetype born from a deliberately provocative format and intellectual dishonesty, being used as a platform to throw out a controversial opinion or as propaganda pieces as opposed to being born from an actual interest in discussion, and people should just stop doing them. Change my mind.
Joke that was actually kinda serious aside, speaking from a Killer POV, I agree the complaints are blown out of proportion.
Do I think the game's balance state is in a great place? Of course not. Do I think that, at the highest level of play, an organised Survivor team has an unreasonable advantage over most Killers? Yeah.
But at the same time, a good proportion of Survivor/Killer community complaints aren't from people truly dealing with said issues, but likely regurgitating what they've heard from people who have, and blaming that for their own bad plays. Sorry, but if 4 gens get popped before you find your first Survivor, that's probably not because of genrushing, I'd wager it's because you're bad.
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I don't care. I've seen P3 Survivors play like lemmings, and I've seen Survivors wearing other cosmetics or no cosmetics at all perform very well.
I take mental notes because you always want to be sizing your opponents up, but how someone's playing will tell me waaay more about how someone thinks than what they're wearing.
The only kind-of-exception is the "Blendette" or P3 Claudette look. I don't tunnel these players or assume they're toxic, but I will take notes especially if they're bringing a toolbox, because that pretty much broadcasts exactly what their strategy is going to be (stay immersed, do loads of gens).
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For Killers, I would say know when to disengage.
Learning how to end chases quickly via mindgames and map knowledge is great, but being able to suddenly peel away from a chase the moment a pallet is dropped to whack a Survivor off a gen is what keeps you feeling unpredictable and is what will win you the match at the end of the day.
Survivors expect a one-by-one hook carousel that gives them time to do gens. To stop them taking advantage of that, you need to constantly be asking yourself in a chase if keeping this up is a smart decision, where you think the rest of the Survivor team probably are and what they're doing, ecetera. Remember that every unhook, every gen popped, every regression halted gives you information, and that information is how you get a surprise locker grab that gets people asking "How the HELL did you find me" in postgame chat.
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@PodgeNotRodge said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1184378#Comment_1184378
Dude, the fact fact you even answered this forum is amazing. I was just doing this for a joke 🤣
Sorry, I couldn't resist pointing out that ackhtually it's green stripes.
One pedantic defense to note, I'm aware DbD's Freddy is from the remake, not the Wes Craven original Freddy movies, but the sweater colour isn't changed from what I know. In both portrayals the colour often looks black but I believe even Nancy Thompson in the original movies directly referred to the sweater as being red and green.
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@Murdle said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1182694#Comment_1182694
Hag belongs in A because freddy, hillbilly, and oni (s) aren't on the same level as nurse and spirit (ss) and Hag isn't on the same level as freddy or hillbilly.
It's a no brainer. She belongs in A.
"In exactly what world are Clown, Legion, Deathslinger, and Trapper ALL stronger characters than Huntress?"
Umm.. This world. Lol.
Clown obviously can end chases pretty quickly by SLOWING and nearly blinding survivors.
Legion is stupidly mobile sprinting around the map at lightning speed and the ability to vault ######### like survivors is cancer.
Trapper needs no explanation. If you think trapper is weaker than Huntress, you sir, need to play the game.
Deathslinger is the only one I can agree with kinda but at the same time, he just shoots you once, you gotta stop and mend. If you don't lose him.. Obviously that chase isn't gonna end in your favor.
Huntress can be looped easily and lower movement speed.. Easy to juke hatchets. That's why they're better.
Wraith is.. Definitely bottom tier. Again, like I said.. spine chill.
Even if I don't have spine chill.. Pretty easy to see a giant "invisible" air dent moving across my screen and hearing elephant stomps around me obviously anyone will notice and run right away.
There are stealth killers that can expose you then hit you at any time while being undetectable so.. Yea wraith is gonna stay as the worst killer for me.
Clown can end chases quickly but so can a plethora of other Killers including Huntress, and they usually have some other ability packed in addition to be able to end chases, and don't have a heart attack whenever they vault anything.
Huntress is loopable but the reason why she is considered so strong is because she's a Killer with a high skillcap. Hatchet juking is up to the Huntress to fail, a good enough Huntress can and will hit you if all you have as defense is mindgaming the hatchet. In that kind of situation you need to rely on Huntress-safe loops (dependent on the map) or using her lullaby for info on her map movements.
Trapper's one of my most played Killers and I absolutely think he's below Huntress. He's better than most people give him credit for but his ability is waay more counterable than hatchets and he gets much worse the more co-ordinated Survivors are.
Legion can use Feral Frenzy to be very mobile, but if Survivors are split up they're just an M1 Killer and using Feral Frenzy is essentially pointless.
Wraith is definitely not bottom tier. Yes, his stealth ability is a lot worse than most would like it to be, but high rank Wraith results and plays kinda speak for themselves. Being able to move faster around the map and remove your TR, even if the "invisibility" is huge false advertisement on the Wailing Bell's part, is a powerful tool and high rank Wraith mains have consistently proven it.
I'm not necessarily making the full galaxy brain "wraith is actually high tier" argument here, I think he's mid tier or even arguably low tier, but he is not the worst Killer in the game.
Most people would probably tell you that LF is the worst Killer in the game and Clown's just above him. I think your list appears to be based on experience versusing these Killers, which isn't a bad place to start, but you probably should do more research on how people who main these Killers feel about the topic. You don't have to take all their words at face value, but you should know at least that Huntress is a stronger Killer than Clown.
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This one isn't original, but Overwhelming Presence should slowly drain the durability of all items (held or dropped) within your Terror Radius, especially now that fully drained items aren't consumed.
Shadowborn IMO needs a bonus effect beyond an FOV increase (because Monitor exists), so I'm going to suggest removing the Red Stain while you are not Chasing a Survivor.
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I don't play enough PvP games to get the best sample, but my time in League of Legends generally had more toxicity than Dead by Daylight- At least, in actual matches/postgame chat. (oh, and for context: I never even set foot into Ranked play) Dead by Daylight's out-of-game community might be one of the most enflamed there is.
I think a major contributing factor is just the nature of the game. Because of DbD's asymmetrical nature, it can be hard for people who main one role to empathise with their opposite- And, thanks to the game's rocky road of balances and reworks, we've unfortunately got a load of Survivors and Killers who seem to believe any failed matches on their end are the fault of the game balance, plus the usual entertainment vampires distributed between who can apparently only have fun if they're trying to ruin someone else's.
But, thankfully, the silent majority do, in my experience, end things off with a gg and are generally respectful players. A silver lining to all the negativity you often see in this community is that it provides endless examples of how NOT to behave.
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@Kira15233 said:
@Lexilogo don't nerf clown, I do agree with your doctor nerfs, I don't really understand the rests but I do also agree with the idea of increasing bloodpoints game, I grinded enough for the rift, don't make me grind so hard for bloodpoints, I totally agree for bloodpoints but explain me the changes for killers except Doctor please.
They aren't nerfs, they're extra Addons that do what I list in exchange for whoever equips them earning +50% Bloodpoints from the match.
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@ausanimal said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1183423#Comment_1183423
Good thing i said 2nd chance perks, items and getting the gens done as fast as they can i didn't just limit it to 2nd chance perks like you did and like you said "but what exactly isn't un-fun about getting unlucky and found first by a Killer, chased and Hooked, immediately going down after a rescue because a teammate of yours was a moron". The amount off time i have hooked someone walked a few feet away from the hook just for someone to unhook them or do it right in front off my face sorry but that's on your teammate not me if you go down again, that's why survivors get BP for a safe rescue so survivors need to stop blaming killers all the time and start looking at there teammates.
Yes there are killers that camp or will hang around the hook if i know someone is at the hook i will look for them otherwise i move on to the next survivor all survivors need to do is wait a bit then unhook not go i will unhook now in front off the killer and expect them not to do anything.
The most easy way to balance mori and keys would be that you have to hook each survivor at least once before you can mori a survivor which will stop i just got unhooked then mori complaints because the killer will need to hook all 4 survivors at least once to use it and for keys only one person can get out with the key which will stop complaints about 2 or more people getting out with a 1 key.
All the things you listed are the killer base kit which allows them to do there job as the killer and what make them unique just like it's in the survivors base kit to fix gens, heal other survivors, disarm traps, pull down pallets. Take away what power the killers have and you will turn them all into M1 killers that can't do anything else.
If you want to close the gap on BP between killers and survivors then they need to fix the maps and gens to allow for more interaction with the killer, when i'm having one off my matches where i hook everyone once for BBQ then just screw around and chase people and down them but not hook them the BP gap is pretty small. Why because everyone got into a chase, got hit, escaped a chase, got someone off a hook, worked on gens they pretty much did nearly everything they could.
Instead off hand feeding things to players or nerfing killers even more or giving BP to survivors for no reason i.e they got mori lets give them blood points they should spend there time on working out how to make killer/survivor interactions better, when people ask me why i didn't hook them a 2nd time my answer is simple i enjoy the chase more then killing because off that everyone is getting more interaction with each side which in turns means more BP.
I would love to see how many people that play killer like your idea off nerfing killers even more just for a 50% bonus in BP knowing that there are a few killers that struggle now even more if its a bigger map.
I agree Killers aren't responsible for unsafe hook rescues, but you have to admit that IS indeed a raw deal for the Survivor who got "saved".
Having to hook every Survivor at least once per mori would make Moris much less powerful but opens up more potential for abuse/exploitation than you'd think. If your teammates have all been hooked and the Killer used a secret offering, why not go ultra immersed and hide somewhere you know you won't be found to avoid much risk of the Killer catching you?
Only 1 person getting out per key would only result in the salt being Survivors having their teammates abandon them mid-match. That's already a pretty contentious issue as is.
Uh, no, the things I listed were PART of the Killer's base kit. Eg. Padded Jaws makes Trapper worse, but you can still play Trapper and it by no means makes him "More of an M1 Killer". Just like how Survivors don't need toolboxes to repair gens but are better at it if they bring them.
No, changing maps would not "fix the survivor/killer BP gap". Yes, more killer interaction can net BP, but the playstyle you describe is not how Killers are supposed to play. Of course if you don't hook people just to prolong the game the Survivors will earn loads more BP, but that's not what's actually supposed to happen. Making Killer interaction more common would probably lower Survivor BP average gains because 4Ks would happen more often.
Also, for the record, a voluntary handicap addon is not a "nerf to a killer", you can just not use the addon and every Killer would be exactly the same. Nurse and Freddy are doing fine even with BP handicap addons existing for them, I just want the bloodpoint bonuses to be useful.
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@Shocktober said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1183484#Comment_1183484
With enough time played in the game, you will know the basement spawn locations. You can start the match off by checking one, and if it is not there, you know it can only spawn in one other location. That is done within 20-30 seconds of starting a match.
If you get 2 people down there, that's 20~ seconds off the game for your win condition. 20 seconds is a pretty long time in DBD. Something like pop goes the weasel gets you 20 seconds as well, but only towards defending gens, and not actually killing the survivors. You can delete a gen by hooking survivors 3+ times with pop, or just outright kill a survivor with monstrous shrine.
The kobe % matters a small amount, because someone getting off the hook in the basement is a catastrophe in the meta of DS / BT. If you have 3 people down there and even one person gets off, that will more than likely start a chain of second chance perks that you cannot counter.
I would really only say there are 4-5 super impactful killer perks. Whatever you choose to run, if you choose to run them, is up to your flavor. And monstrous is fine as a decent perk for a basement playstyle.
I am not saying it's a great perk, but it does have it's uses.
The Kobe% is a 1% total reduction chance. If it changed the base chance of a self-unhook to 0 it would be more justifiable but the 1% total reduction is miniscule.
Let's say we keep running basement hook only builds and 4K every single time in the basement. If every Survivor makes three self-unhook attempts, that's a total of 12 unhook attempts for about a 60% chance that none of those self-unhook attempts will succeed. Monstrous Shrine increases that to just under 70%, so even IF the Survivors try self-unhooks as much as possible in the dream scenario which will essentially never happen in-game, Monstrous will STILL only make the difference between a Kobe and a Survivor wipe 10% of the time.
At least, if I got my probability math right. There's a high probability (budumtish) that I screwed it up.
You will get ~20 seconds off the game for your win condition IF you camp multiple Survivors in the basement at different times. If that is the case, and you're camping Survivors in the basement one by one, Monstrous does pay off but you wouldn't be playing even remotely effectively. A good Survivor team should genrush you and by the time the first one's dead, with or without Monstrous, up to four gens could already be done in that time.
You are correct that 20 seconds is a long time, but how much time can Monitor & Abuse save you in a match via allowing you to get closer to a Survivor before they hear your TR and run off? How much time can any detection perk save you by allowing you to locate hiding Survivors when you'd have missed them otherwise? Ecetera. Sure, Monstrous does save you time but IMO most other perks still indirectly save you time and make your goals quicker and easier to perform, and do it better than Monstrous, it's just that there's no way to quantify how much time Save The Best For Last can net for you (even though I know it's WAAAAY more than 20 seconds in the average match).
If you're roaming, they will almost certainly get saved and you'll hook them again, the timer doesn't matter.
I'm generally pretty light when it comes to calling perks "useless" or "bad". I defend perks like Brutal Strength, Sloppy Butcher, even Overcharge. Monstrous Shrine is indefensible. Even in a facecamping basement Bubba build, it's a bad Perk.
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@PigNRun said:
Wonderful ideas. My only comment is that the extra 1000 BP should only be from Moris and not dying. Otherwise, Survivors will be encouraged to crawl away to a dark corner and die there on the floor to unnecessarily lengthen the match just to spite the other player.
I am conflicted about the bleedout thing, yeah. This is kind of a seperate thing but I've felt for a while that Survivors should be able to voluntarily speed up their rate of bleedout if they've been in the Dying state for a while and was kinda envisioning a slugged Survivor finding a good hiding spot to deny the Killer their final hook, but it's not really that well thought-out in retrospect.
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@Shocktober said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1183465#Comment_1183465
Basement hooks are not RNG. You can run agitation and iron grasp, then defend the generators near it. Most maps only have 1-2 basement spawns, so within 30 seconds of loading into the game you can know which gens to be defending.
I always do corrupt intervention (the best killer perk in the game currently) as well, which sometimes locks down a 3 gen right on top of the basement.
Once you get someone down there, it's not hard to get the second person assuming you are running a 1 shot or stealth killer. Or spirit / hag because they are overpowered. Then once you have two down there, it's pretty much faceroll at that point.
You don't need the perk to win in 90% of the cases, but that's the same with most perks in the game.
Sure thing, but you don't start with knowledge of where the Basement is, nor can most Killers be reasonably expected to defend any Generator they want at the start of the match.
Yes, you can play a Basement-oriented playstyle and win as Killer. Monstrous is still worthless, because if you're locking down the Basement that much, what does the Kobe% or the Survivor hook death timer matter to you? Wouldn't you get more out of a generally good Perk that helps you more easily locate/down Survivors to throw in the Basement than you would out of the Survivors in your basement dying ~10 seconds faster?
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Legion isn't overpowered by any stretch of the imagination, but it's hard to argue that his power is well-designed.
Feral Frenzy is, for all intents and purposes, a free hit on Survivors. The only chase mechanic that still matters after it's invoked is Pallet stuns, which are easy for Killers to bait out and avoid or just use FF after tha Pallet's been dropped. Any competent Killer can use it and there is essentially nothing the Survivor in chase can do to avoid being hit by it. (scratch marks being removed helps a bit but not when you're in Legion's sights and have little to break that line of sight, like in outdoor maps)
Then, when Legion gets a free hit, they also gain information on nearby Survivors, who they can proceed to also hit for free. These Survivors have a slightly better chance to avoid Legion than the initial victim but it's still not great.
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@Shocktober said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1183411#Comment_1183411
There's plenty of worse perks than monstrous shrine. At least monstrous shrine gives you value when you can make it work. There's other perks, like unrelenting, that are just absolute trash unless you are a rank 15-20 killer who misses 95% of their swings.
There's also furtive chase, cruel limits, bitter murmer on anyone who isn't huntress, lullaby / overcharge at high ranks, third seal, beast of prey, etc etc.
Furtive is gimmicky but at least lets you lower your TR beyond normal limits which can be very effective. Overcharge actually isn't totally useless at high ranks as it prevents gentapping. Bitter Murmur at least provides consistent information on Survivor movements. Cruel Limits is very specific but can make indoor gens a lot less safe.
Monstrous Shrine only works IF you get a basement hook, which is dependent on factors like map RNG, and only reduces hook timers by roughly 5.4 seconds per stage. Even if you extended it to every Hook on the map it'd be a pretty awful perk and as most Survivor teams, especially good ones, will not leave allies to rot on the hook it's extremely, extremely unlikely to ever make a difference between a hook state.
This is a more out-there idea, but one of my ideas for a Monstrous Shrine buff would be all Basements spawn in possible locations, but are invisible to Survivors and they simply see the floors/walls as if no Basement existed. When the Killer walks where the stairs would be, the Basement materialises there as normal permanently and the other potential Basement spawn vanishes.
This way the Killer chooses their Basement spawn location, and perhaps gets the benefit of barring Survivors from the Basement as a hiding place or for chest loot until they actually go to the Basement for a hook.
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@Maelstrom10 said:
Read most of this, but as it's 6am and I haven't slept yet, I'm just going to add this if it hasn't been been already stated.
Healing another survivor should grant the healed survivor survival points just as you get altruism points.
Survivors selfcaring get them. Bridge the gap. Make it efficient to heal by someone, and be rewarded for it.
Please
Would make the survival category so much healthier, as you'd gain points the same way you would altrusim.
That is actually a good one I didn't state in the thread. Survivors who don't bring the ability to selfcare definitely get shafted in Survival points unless they actually escape. A small BP event for getting healed would be nice.
I did consider writing something up about Solidarity, because from what I understand that Perk should probably reward BP, but I don't know anywhere near enough about Survivor play to make a good judgement on that. Hell, I had to look up if Inner Strength rewards BP for the self-heal. (it does)
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@ausanimal said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1183139#Comment_1183139
That's the thing what is a proper game survivors complain about mori but have no problem bringing in all the 2nd chance perks they can, items and getting the gens done as fast as they can or like you said use a key to get a free escape, but a killer brings in a mori to balance the playing field and all off a sudden its unfun for survivors and they need to be given BP to say sorry you died have some BP as a reward and are way of saying sorry you died why not just take the loss and move on to the next game not everything needs a reward. If survivors beat me fair and square and i don't get 1 kill and the gens get done fast or 2-3 survivors get out because off a key i just say gg and move on to the next game.
Mori and keys both need a rework done to them not BP given to the player because they died to a mori, i think the hatch should go back to how it was when so many gens had to be done not like now if your the last one alive the hatch opens even if only 1 gen got done the survivors failed at doing there objective they shouldn't get a free pass but keep it so they can try and open the gate or the killer can forcing the EGC.
But survivors don't need items to do there job if they need to heal they have perks or other players, they don't need a toolbox to fix a gen so not taking a item into the match won't impact the survivors i.e making it take 100sec to fix a gen not 80. Lets not forget that survivors can find items in the match to so survivors are not really at a loss if they go into a match without a item as it doesn't stop them from doing what they need to do.
There is reasons why killers get more BP then survivors apart from wanting to get people to play killer, a lot off killers need add ons to be some what decent in a match and killers lose them after each match, yes survivors have that now to but they keep the item which can be used without add ons and even then they don't need to bring a item in to be able to do there job. Go though every killer and look at what addons you would use on the killer there is only a few you would really use the rest are just a waste and sit there.
Moris aren't really comparable to 2nd chance Perks. Even if every Survivor brings Decisive Strike and Borrowed and all of them proc them, (which is often the Killer's own fault anyway) that's not really comparable to an Ebony Mori. The game's balanced around no Moris.
Also, you're clearly trying to poke fun at Survivors complaining about Moris, but what exactly isn't un-fun about getting unlucky and found first by a Killer, chased and Hooked, immediately going down after a rescue because a teammate of yours was a moron, and then getting booted from the match by an instant Mori?
You can say you think Moris/Keys need a rework, but I personally think there isn't that much you can do to them that doesn't destroy their current appeal. You can stack on more restrictions, but at the end of the day Moris are for executing Survivors, and Keys are for escaping when you ordinarily wouldn't have "earned" it yet. I think compensation BP would be a solution that partially resolves the "I waited in matchmaking and didn't get a match" complaint at least from a progression perspective. (I also disagree with your Hatch rework, I MUCH prefer DbD's endgame now from back when I was playing with the old system, but that's kind of offtopic as it doesn't change how Keys are used)
Survivors don't NEED items to do their job, yes, just like a Spirit doesn't need scratch marks to down Survivors with her power, Trapper doesn't need to deal Health State damage with traps to get hooks with them, Billy doesn't need instadowns, Clown doesn't need all five Bottles, ecetera. One addon here I'm unsatisfied with in that respect is LF's Speed Limiter, as instadowns are all LF really has going for him in the first place, but an LF rework is a seperate topic.
Some Killers are reliant on addons but the game isn't supposed to be balanced around that, neither should the game be balanced around certain addons being useless. Those issues are (more slowly than I'd like) being resolved. About the only Killers I think are seriously addon reliant right now are Wraith and Trapper, honestly, at least from the ones I've played (perhaps ones like Oni are also reliant on addons?). In any case, I've already said I actually don't want the Survivor BP bonuses to make Survivors equal Killers in BP gain, but to stop the gap between the two from widening too much.
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Great read, but the part where you lose me is linking The Lost Tapes with The Alchemist. I mean, if No One Left Behind's description really is plotting to overthrow the Alchemist, I think it's a stretch to say that conversation was recorded. I also think saying "Don't be predictable and selfish!" could be referring to The Alchemist being predictable and selfish is very clearly not what that's referring to. It more means not abandoning other Survivors for your own safety, which would be a strange warning to give in the context you speculate. At most, I guess it could mean more "don't take the serum for yourself!"
Plunderer's Instinct's description is also IMO just referring to a period of time where people perhaps willingly entered The Entity's realm (or, at least, were in The Entity's realm but were making the best of it) and were able to easily take advantage of the Chests in the trials to create useful stuff from the Fog. We know The Entity "grows in power" in vague ways by consuming the hope of Survivors, so my personal headcanon is that the Trials started out much less deadly and more profitable for Survivors to better lure them, but as The Entity accumulated Killers and refined its techniques they became what they are now.
Vigo's Jar of Salty Lips could also be explained via Vigo using The Fog to create it, or harvesting from dead bodies he was able to find.
I DO think Vigo had the assistants you describe and those assistants definitely didn't have a happy ending, though I think the Killers escaping and killing them is a more likely explanation than Vigo creating entire encaged hunting grounds for them and setting them loose on Survivors. Just think The Lost Tapes Survivors are probably their own thing, and unfortunately don't look like they'll be revisited. (even though I quite like their entries!)
EDIT: Looking over the Serum Killer skin descriptions, they seemingly confirm that they were probably escapees, not used as weapons. Plague's reads "She emerged from confinement ..." Hag's is "She escaped ..." and Spirit "She emerged from captivity ... ". All these descriptions describe the Killers in question gaining unexpected strength to do so, and as the serum version of the Doctor reveals that the Killers did have different containment procedures (as he got ankle restraints) I think it's reasonable to infer that they just escaped containment due to the serum having unexpectedly potent results, which is what caused the deaths.
Parts of the descriptions like Trapper's serum cleaver also seem to state that the Killers had enough time to incorporate some of the Alchemist lab's serum into their own weapons themselves, and considering how valuable this serum seems to be I highly doubt it'd be deliberately wasted like that via releasing the Killers voluntarily.
Also worth noting the Serum verison of Trapper says he was "injected with metalloids congealed at high temperatures" so the nature of the experimentation was probably pretty diverse. Also noticed Trapper's Serum skin looked far younger and less leathery, so IMO it is pretty probable that this was indeed a past event that happened to the Killers, and while the Entity obviously reverted some of the Serum's effects to keep its Killers in working order, Evan was probably a recent addition to the lineup by this point.
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Candyman is on the more obscure side but is a legitimate horror icon despite that. I'd be down for a Candyman DLC, and especially all the inevitable bees jokes that'd endlessly follow his mains.
As for what his Killer Power would be, being able to teleport out of various mirrors would be an obvious idea, but if I had to guess any power it would probably be a bees related status affliction Survivors have to deal with on top of getting hooked. Maybe BHVR will try to revisit ideas from pre-rework Freddy, with Candyman being relatively weak in chasing but having loads of information on Survivor movements and being able to effectively juggle a Survivor team and keep them all busy?
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@ausanimal said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1183032#Comment_1183032
So killers can get bonus BP but take a nerf while survivors get bonus BP with no downside yer no thankyou take "+1000 BP for dying, but escaping sacrifice to The Entity. (mostly by moris, or in the rare instance you bleed out. Maybe this should be +1500 or +2000?)" sorry but if the survivor died why should they get BP for it are you going to give killers BP if gens get done in under so many min to balance it.
even "Dead Hard awards extra BP (say, 250) for the Killer missing an attack during or shortly after Dead Hard triggers, overriding other Attack Missed BP events." if the killer lands a hit they lose 250 BP. If you going to give a downside to killers using addons to get more BP you need to do the same for survivors as a lot off nerfs you listed for the killers will hurt them bad in the game.
Survivors who end up being the Obsession actually already get BP for dying.
The Survivor did die, but they didn't die to a standard Sacrifice, they died to a Mori. Currently moris are incredibly divisive among the Survivor playerbase and a lot less "fun" than they should be, especially Ebony/Ivory Moris where a Survivor understandably feels cheated. With this change, Cypress Moris would actually be a benefit to the final Survivor and hopefully not feel as salty, and while Ebony/Ivory moris could still remove you early, you'd get a parting BP bonus to compensate for not getting a proper game.
If you want a comparable bonus for Killers, an amount of Sacrifice points (like 500 at the end of the match) for each Survivor who escaped via a Hatch opened with a Key would be the more fitting comparison. That's also a situation where you might feel cheated out of a "proper" game, and I don't think that would actually be a bad change either.
Survivors shouldn't lose BP for being hit, not even the best Survivor in the world can get chased by a competent Killer forever without getting hit (even with the best environmental props, excluding an infinite the Killer just moves faster and the Survivor will eventually need to consume pallets for more distance). The Dead Hard BP is supposed to be a bonus for people who use Dead Hard correctly, just like how Killers get BP for using their Killer Powers correctly to down Survivors.
And yes, the Killer addons would significantly impact a Killer's game. Remember that Survivors already do something quite comparable to this when they enter matches without any items. The intention with these Addons is also to allow for them to be played around to an extent- If I'm worried about any of them being overkill, it's probably Myers' because EWI can already be difficult to escape in high ranks.
I considered Survivors getting similar negative addons for Bloodpoints, but because Items are fundamentally a different mechanic it's not quite the same thing, and as Survivors are playing on a team that might not appreciate the others gutting themselves too much.
It also doesn't help that your reply is kinda predicated on the premise that Survivor/Killer BP earnings are balanced with each other when that is very clearly not the case. A Survivor needs to escape and perform well in all categories of play (or be very, very good at the game and barely not escape) to get Bloodpoints roughly equivalent to what a Killer gets in essentially every match, AND their BP farming Perk isn't BBQ + Chili. It is well-known that Killers earn more Bloodpoints than Survivors.
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@BattleCast said:
They also need to buff the blood point offerings.
Browns offer a 1k in the best case scenario
yellows 2k
and greens 3k
WHAT????
That is also a problem, yes, and it's kind of silly that, despite being BETTER than the BP addons I mention in this thread, they're still eh.
Not 100% how I would buff them (aside from maybe just a rework to the numbers, like 100% for common, 150% for uncommon, and 200% for category-specific offerings) but maybe tying the category-specific Offerings to the Emblems system? Each BP category is somewhat related to an emblem anyway, so maybe something like +1000 BP at the end of the match for each tier of that respective emblem you earned for Common, +1500 BP for uncommon and +2000 for rare?
So, you equip the Rare version of Spotted Owl Wreath as Killer and get iridescent Chaser at the end of the match, that's a payout of 8000 Bloodpoints in addition to the multiplier to the Hunter BP category (let's assume it's maxed because you got Irid Chaser), which with unbuffed numbers would be a total of 16,000 additional BP for the match. I think that's fair, for the best-case scenario of a Rare addon that won't always work out quite like that, especially considering Survivor Pudding/Escape! Cake and Bloody Party Streamers already exist.
@SrxErick4 said:
Leí uno y cada uno de tus puntos y se que lo hiciste lo más justo posible, quisiera comentar cada punto y decirte mi opinión de cada uno pero escribiste demasiado, (soy un jugador veterano con 2 1/2 años de experiencia). También no tengo tiempo. Apoyo la mayoría de tus puntos.
Don't worry, I also think I wrote too much!
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I would put Hag in S tier. A good Hag with a good gen setup can be nearly as unbeatable as any Nurse/Spirit. Sure, she has slow movespeed, she can teleport and is a territorial Killer, it doesn't matter. Yes, a Hag trap has lower consequence than a Trapper trap, she can still immediately initiate chase and probably get a hit off on you, and maintaining her traps is way less cumbersome.
In exactly what world are Clown, Legion, Deathslinger, and Trapper ALL stronger characters than Huntress?
Wraith is definitely not bottom, he has more tools than Leatherface or Clown. Stealth and above average map pressure are both valuable things to have. Hard to get used to/get results with, perhaps, but Wraith players have proven his toolset is sufficient to consistently work at high ranks.
Myers is overrated and I say this as a huge fan of playing him. Yes, Myers WILL stomp in many lowrank games, in high rank games where Survivors are more acutely aware of his stalking and how to exploit it, EWI is really difficult to get out of and gens will pop before Myers can seriously chase anyone. Add that to the fact that, despite being a really strong M1 Killer, he's still an M1 Killer, makes him more mid-tier.
Demo and Trapper are a bit high in general. Trapper struggles with genrushing because he needs his preptime and has a lot of Survivor counterplay especially with co-ordinated guys who can deal with his traps, and Demo broadcasts a lot of information to Survivors via his constant screeches which becomes more of a problem the higher you go.
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@VCDiamondFinder said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1182105#Comment_1182105
Clown I can kinda see, but honestly him being able to stop looping for the most part is really good, again I feel his perks (besides bamboozled) need tweaking and his power as well, but nothing major that would break him, and talked about last post above this one
Sure, Clown can stop looping. So can Freddy, who can teleport around the map and delay Survivors. So can Doctor, who can easily find hiding Survivors. So can Nurse, who makes walls irrelevant. So can Spirit, who can make any loop unsafe and mindgame Survivors. So can Hag/Trapper, and their traps are far more versatile than just for stopping loops. So can Deathslinger, and he's got a neat hat.
Many other Killers have anti-loop tools. Most of them either have better ones, or other tools on top of an anti-looping ability.
As for LF a "worse version of Billy" is kind of misplaced. He sacrifices all of the map pressure (which is the best part of Billy) for slightly "better" instant downing that takes longer to actually pull off. Against solid Survivors who know how to pressure gens, you cannot put up a fight as Leatherface. I can when playing Killers like Trapper, but not as Bubba.
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Firecrackers shouldn't be very practical, they're supposed to be a oneoff celebration kind of item, and their blinding capability is fine.
The whole no noise notification thing might be weird, but stuff like Red Herring and Diversion indicate that devs really don't want Survivors throwing out fake noise notifications everywhere. As a Killer main myself I actually wouldn't mind having to ask myself every now and then if a noise notification is legit, but eh.
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@VCDiamondFinder said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1182079#Comment_1182079
How so? I cant think of a killer, that if played correctly, that needs a buff
You should think harder, I can name two major candidates.
Clown is, well. Not in an ideal state. He can stop loops. That's... That's it.
Leatherface is good at instadowning and that's it.
All Killers can perform well under the right circumstances, because the basic M1 Killer setup can still wipe a Survivor team that makes too many mistakes, but some Killers very clearly require Survivors to make too many mistakes to perform well. LF and Clown make me think of Demogorgon, Freddy and Pig who make up for an eeeh ability with supplementary powers that help them get results, but LF and Clown are missing said supplementary powers.