Kaitsja
Kaitsja
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@Biscuits said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3134696#Comment_3134696
The argument around SWFs that some or most SWFs aren't good is a bad one, why? Because MMR exists, bad SWFs go against bad killers and good SWFs go against good killers. You still have an advantage over the killer at your MMR.
MMR exists but doesn't even work correctly, if at all. If good swfs played against equally good killers, there wouldn't be so many complaints.
MMR merely attempts to find you a balanced match. If it fails to do so, you just get whoever's online at the time.
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The killers I play against most are, in order, Huntress, Blight, Legion, Nemesis. Very rarely see any of the others with the exception of Pyramid Head.
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@Biscuits said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3134674#Comment_3134674
SWF's are already on sweat mode, at least let the killer even the playing field.
Swfs are not already on sweat mode. A lot of us are just having some fun with friends. That's not sweaty. But a killer bringing 4 slowdowns, plus a red mori, and tunneling is supposedly evening the playing field?
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The grind is worse if you only play one character. As an example, I'm a Kate main and I only play Kate. Before, if I wanted a perk, I'd only have to invest in a character up to level 40 to get the teachable. Now, I have to prestige the character to get the teachable.
For killers, the new prestige system is great since it means you can freely swap killers. It also means when a new killer is released, you're not limited to a few crappy choices.
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@Biscuits said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3134666#Comment_3134666
Just like you can't stop DC players from DCing no matter how much you punish them. No amount of information is going to change that dodgers dodge. I didn't prove any point, only that dodging is going to happen whether they can see it is a SWF or not. The amount of players dodging will not change with the added information.
Players who previously didn't dodge because they weren't sure would dodge because they'd know it was a swf. Killers, in general, don't want to play against a swf.
I'm against telling killers they're playing against a swf because even if they do choose to play, they're going to go a for a full sweat loadout. I'm playing for fun, not to win.
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@TarunCosmo said:
I think we are overusing the word t-bag.
There's no chat, communication is limited. I almost want to make a separate post for this.
At the beginning of the round, if I see another survivor we both double tap crouch, it's like saying "hello". This even goes for reunited, double tap to acknowledge their presence"
Spam crouches afterdoing gen, "woot woot!"
Double tap after heals means "thank you".
Spamming crouch to get a heal usually means "please please please please please please, pleaaaaaaaaase"
Spamming croush while someone is cleansing a totem, "Let me boon dat shiz, my friend!"
Crouch to killer:
Quick pump single crouch, "Come get me" usually in a playful way like a cat or dog ready for a chase.
long crouches, "Noooo please don't kill me"
spamming crouches "hahaha, yeah boy"
On your teammates face after a mori, or in dying state:
"t-bagging"
For the totem one, if it's a lit totem and someone's spamming crouch at you, it's probably because it's haunted grounds and they don't want you to cleanse it.
Little tip: If there are two lit totems on the map, there's no undying, no ruin, no blood favor and the totems would be across from each other if not for all the obstacles in the way, then it's probably haunted grounds.
On second thought here's a visual representation.
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@Biscuits said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3134572#Comment_3134572
People already dodge lobbies that they suspect are SWFs, the only thing that changes is killers being more confident in the perks they choose for that match. I think people would also be very surprised to see just how few 4 man SWF's are out there.
You just proved my point. People already dodge suspected swf lobbies, why would they play against a team they know is a swf? Why would they play against a swf that is potentially more skilled than them when they can play against solos who are probably going to kill themselves on their first hook?
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@Reinami said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3133800#Comment_3133800
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3133802#Comment_3133802
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3133825#Comment_3133825
This,
This is another argument i see, and the reality is this. There are 2 possible statements you can make:
- We SHOULD balance the game around the top level players
- We SHOULD NOT balance the game around top level players, and should instead balance around the AVERAGE player.
If you believe 1 is true, then you must agree that at top level Survivors are far too powerful, especially when playing SWF.
If you believe 2 is true, then you must agree that nurse is fine, because she often has the lowest kill rate in the game.
You cannot believe 1 is true, and that nurse should not be nerfed.
You cannot believe 2 is true, and that nurse should be nerfed.
If you do, then you are biased.
Either this is ok or it's not:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtENJZ_z0zw&t=1s
If it IS ok, then we probably should buff nurse. If it is not ok, then we talk about nerfing nurse after we nerf this.
One can maintain the position that Nurse is not okay while still believing the game should be balanced around the average player. The video you linked is a very extreme example of swf.
As you can see in the video, they're using a clock system to coordinate. This is something you see in tournament swfs.
I only play survivor in a swf duo, very rarely a trio, but never a 4-man. We communicate only the important details. Who the killer is, what perks they're running, if they have a hex and if we're in chase. If a totem is lit at a major landmark, we can say "Lit totem at shack". We don't use a clock system and say "Killer is at 1, going to 12".
Comms are not necessarily always giving survivors the information perks you'd think they are. I can't say to my friend "Just got pushed off a gen at 9, it's nearly done but the killer's on me." because we haven't planned that far ahead. We are making it up as we go because we want to have fun, not win every game.
I believe that swf duos and trios are fine but when you get quads, it tends to be a different story. I'd be fine with placing restrictions on quads, but not duos and trios.
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@Biscuits said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3133999#Comment_3133999
I am not sure if you read through my post, I am definitely in the boat for the game to be balanced around SoloQ and not SWFs. I would much rather they compensate killers for playing against SWFs, than to kill half the player base by balancing around SWFs.
There are also perks that work very well against SWFs and giving the killer that information in the lobby could be enough to give them wins on it's own. I think the lobby should show if it's a SWF and in doing that you should also see that you get double blood points and easier PIPs for that game.
The argument of showing SWF in lobby has been made on here before, as has the idea of compensating them with extra BP, and the general consensus was that they would lobby dodge regardless of how much you compensated them.
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@Braincell1973 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3133279#Comment_3133279
Even with bloodlust survivors can endlessly keep their distance whilst in a loop.........
It sounds to me like you're a beginner playing against experienced survivors, which is a matchmaking problem. Watch some guides on youtube to learn how to get better at chases. There's nowhere to go but up.
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I thought they were remedying this with the new built-in mori system where if there's only one survivor remaining, as soon as they're downed, they get mori'd.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3131355#Comment_3131355
-"Of course killers would prefer playing against swf if you gave them four extra perks with zero limitations. Who wouldn't?"
Let's stop and think for a second. What part of the game right now gives you extra perks with zero limitations? The answer is SWF. You get the value of many free perks because you can talk. SWF needs to have a downside so that there is at least one advantage to playing in solo queue.
You are unwilling to limit SWF parties to no repeats of : characters/perks/items. That one simple change would make SWF a lot more balanced while having almost no impact on the strength of a SWF group.
"The devs literally said kill rates were too low"
I am not doubting that fact. You can't be sure that the buffs to killer had nothing to do with this :
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/MIWZWF7HKSXJ/image.png
Furthermore you have no information that proves that these numbers were a direct result of few people wanting to play killer. See all those months in red over the last year? For the huge majority of the last year Killer queues have been instant. Do you know why? Because almost nobody wanted to play killer. Meanwhile during a large portion of this time the survivor queue times were 5-10 minutes to play a game that could be won in under 5 minutes.
On the no repeats, I'm willing to compromise on: Toolboxes, flashlights, skins, and non-healing perks.
While I can't be sure the buffs to killer had nothing to do with too few killers, there's nothing to confirm that it had something to do with it either. Anything other than killers being buffed because kill rates were too low is speculation.
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Dredge was such a well designed killer and so much fun to play as and against. The cosmetics team have also been really smashing it out of the park lately.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3131112#Comment_3131112
Survivors already hate playing against four slowdown perks, what do you think is going to happen when you let them stack more?
Killers already hate playing against SWF - but they would probably PREFER to play vs SWF if they got +4 perks. I think it would do exactly what you want: make all solo players more balanced with SWF.
"You propose that solos get 4 extra information perks of their choice, while the killer gets any 4 extra perks of their choosing. This is in absolutely no way a fair trade"
It's not a fair trade that when you play in a SWF you can have 12 or more perks worth of information at no cost. This makes everyone stronger who is not in a SWF group. It would be totally fair and balanced because survivors get information and the killer gets power.
The most fair thing to do would be to have some kind of "tournament mode" . You queue up five players and your SWF plays against their killer while your killer plays against their killer. The regular game mode would be solo queue only. Then nobody needs any extra perks. Another way you could make it fair is if you could get reduced points (no item or achievement gain) in KYF and the game had "open mics" the whole time. That way you can play with your friends and still get points.
"You can't punish people for playing with their friends"
Taking away the 15% escape advantage from SWF over solo queue is not punishing people for playing with their friends. Just stop with that rhetoric.
"As for the reason why killers were buffed this last patch, it has nothing to do with killer numbers and everything to do with kill rates"
You are not privy to that information and are speculating. There is no proof of this "fact".
"If you can't beat a swf, it's on you as a player."
This retort makes sense when you consider low and middle skill survivors. The second we are talking about people with multiple thousands of hours of experience playing in a SWF in unfair. Almost all the "big name" streamers call playing in a SWF unfair. I think it's pretty safe to say the devs don't think SWF is fair either as they have noticed that being in a SWF gives you a 15% higher chance to escape. I will remind you again that when freddy got nerfed to oblivion he had a 4% higher kill rate. The SWF escape rate advantage is almost 4 times higher.
If you watch some of the old charity streams you can see some of the very best DBD streamers play against each other. It became painfully obvious that when you put a team of survivors with 20k hours on the same team they kind of stomp the killer.
If you want to pretend that SWF doesn't give a big advantage that's fine. But literally the entire streaming community acknowledges that it does.
The devs literally said kill rates were too low, and that was before the mid-chapter update actually dropped. It was the whole reason they were buffing killers. Did you just not read the June 2022 developer update?
Here's your proof.
Dead By Daylight is not balanced from the top down. It's balanced around what's average, and your average survivor is not clocking in at 8,000+ hours.
Of course killers would prefer playing against swf if you gave them four extra perks with zero limitations. Who wouldn't? Solos on the other hand, well they got the short end of the stick. They can have four extra perks but only if those four extra perks are information perks.
Like come off it mate. It'd only be a fair trade if killers were restricted to perks like Surveillance and Discordance for their four extra perks.
I played Plague with pre-nerf Thana and three slowdowns and it was against a SWF trio with one solo. It took them over 30 minutes to finish all the gens, and all I did was pressure gens. None of them played bad by any means, it was just that I had so much slowdown they couldn't get anything done.
With eight slowdowns, I could make it take twice that amount of time which obviously is not fun for anyone.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3131116#Comment_3131116
SWFs can better coordinate what they should be doing, if they had more information about what the other survivors are doing. It’s the same concept of how solo q survivors want survivor action icons, even though these icons don’t involve direct communication with the other survivors.
Unless someone is on hook and nobody's able to get them, they should be doing gens. Nobody really runs noed anymore so totems can mostly be ignored unless there's a hex in play.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3129995#Comment_3129995
Survivor action icons would raise 2-SWF and 3-SWF closer to the level of 4-SWF. This would raise the escape rate of 2-SWF and 3-SWF.
You still haven't explained how this increases their escape rate. You can't coordinate with solos.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3130126#Comment_3130126
SWF without any kind of balance buffs for the killer was a huge mistake as DBD was a game built with indecision in mind. You are not supposed to know if you should keep working your generator, go for the save or hide. You always know which action to do when you are in a SWF.
Imagine playing games where no one is talking, the survivors are all talking, or the survivors are all talking but you can hear them talking. The scenario where the survivors are all talking is the scenario where they have the advantage. About 1/3 of the perks in this game become pointless if you can talk to each other.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3130000#Comment_3130000
"This is why giving solos access to the same level of information a swf has is the best way to bridge the gap."
Let's imagine we are in a SWF. The killer comes to chase me and my generator is at 75% progress. We only need one generator to escape. If I tell you my generator is at 75% and I run far away from that generator then we are guaranteed to escape if you come to repair my generator.
If the killer kicks my generator with overcharge before chasing me and nobody does anything about it then it resets to zero after a minute. How do you balance out voice coms? If we are in a SWF I can say go to the generator near the hill besides shack. If we are all solo then you will likely start a new generator and get nothing done before my chase ends.
Do you propose that there would be a map wide 75% flashing neon sign over the generator with the most progress? This is just one advantage you get by being in a SWF.
Do you propose that solo players would all know the killer has Bamboozle as soon as he uses it near a survivor? This is what happens in a SWF.
Do you propose that solo players see the aura of any active totem that another solo survivor has run past? SWF don't get to see the aura but they can relay the position of the totem to their team.
In short there is no way to 100% bridge the gap between solo players and SWF. But there is a really simple shortcut to make the game a lot less unfair to the killer and solo survivor when they play in a game with a SWF. Give solo surviovrs 4 information perks of their choice that active in case of SWF. Give the killer any 4 perks of their choice that activate later in case they play against SWF.
I think you will find that most killers would enjoy playing against SWF with 8 perks. Most SWF would absolutely hate it - because their advantage would dramatically decrease.
Survivors already hate playing against four slowdown perks, what do you think is going to happen when you let them stack more? Survivors are going to DC en masse because literally nothing can be done. Killer perks and survivor perks are not equal in terms of strength.
You propose that solos get 4 extra information perks of their choice, while the killer gets any 4 extra perks of their choosing. This is in absolutely no way a fair trade, and survivors in general wouldn't enjoy playing against that.
I'm proposing that solos get the same level of information as a swf, not the exact same information. If solos can make informed decisions, they'll (hopefully) play better. If somebody's on hook and at least one person is thinking about going for the save but they're also thinking somebody else is on the way, they'll be able to glance at the hud and know that one person is in chase, and the other is on a gen.
Survivors can't have games without killers and killers can't have games without survivors. You can't punish people for playing with their friends and you can't just give the killer an absurd buff to compensate for the existence of swf.
Smaller maps means killers can get downs at a consistent pace, which also means that all that information sharing isn't going to make a difference.
Solos get buffed by giving them the same level of information a swf has. This means things like basekit kindred and action icons. They can never be made equivalent to a swf, but the gap can be bridged.
After this, the survivor role can then be nerfed as a whole while weaker killers can be given buffs where necessary. This allows for more killers to be viable, and for killers to get downs at a consistent pace without relying on stacking slowdowns.
As for the reason why killers were buffed this last patch, it has nothing to do with killer numbers and everything to do with kill rates. The devs were unhappy with the kill rates hence the killer buffs. I don't agree with their reasoning, but I do agree with the buffs.
I'm not against killers and solos getting buffs, but I am against ideas that only really benefit the killer. If you can't beat a swf, it's on you as a player. That same swf would've beat you even without comms. Comms, believe it or not, do not make or break a victory.
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@RatbasterdJr said:
So many people claim “I got this killer 3849359 times in a row”
I doubt these numbers. The odds of getting 5 nurses running irdentical addons IN A ROW, is very slim. Even more slim if they are all good nurses.
Eh, I'd believe it. I had 5 Legions in a row, all running Thana. Three out of the five ran the add-on that makes you broken when you mend yourself and that's about all I remember.
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FNAF's gameplay is marketed towards kids, and I assume most people play Dead by Daylight for the gameplay and not the lore. FNAF would bring a bunch of children to the game all clamoring for Springtrap. Parents would find out that their kids are playing this game and they would freak out over it. I don't want that.
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@Z0mbiv0r said:
I don't know, guys. I understand giving solo survivors extra information is the easiest way to narrow the gap in power between one solo surivor and swf teams, but doing that blatantly kills the purpose of the game on the survivor side, which iirc was to have four people trying to survive a killer with no possibility to be coordinated. I'd say it goes against the lore too. The most I would do is a sort of in-game proximity voice chat. We need to find a different solution for swfs, and I think it's not easy for the devs, so we should go easy on them.
Proximity Chat presents several problems as it assumes everybody is speaking the same language. In America, the primary spoken language is English, but then you have Europe where there are many different languages all encompassed under the one region.
Then you have to take into account people who don't much fancy the idea of communicating with strangers. Then there's the children, because children play this game too. This is why giving solos access to the same level of information a swf has is the best way to bridge the gap.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3129738#Comment_3129738
If all survivors are given extra information in the future, then the people in SWFs would be given extra information (that they currently do not have) about the survivors that aren't in their SWF.
And it would make a difference to a SWF, because they would get extra information on what people outside their SWF is doing. For example, the HUD currently only tells people when the obsession is in chase, but if survivor icons are added to the game, then the SWF members would know every time someone outside their SWF was in a chase.
The hud tells you when any survivor is in chase. It's a bit more subtle when it isn't the obsession, but their portrait and name become a bit brighter when in chase and dim when not in chase.
You can also deduce that a solo is in chase by the change in their health state. If they suddenly go from healthy to injured, you know they're in chase. I fail to see how knowing that a solo is in chase magically increases a swf's chance of escaping.
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@BrokenSouI said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3129759#Comment_3129759
I think doctors power works on one floor, and has an add on that changes it to be more of an oval around him to reach multi floors ? I could be wrong on that. But that would mean they have the capability to do it.
Even if they don't. They would need to change it to once per hook state then. In people's excitement. They don't seem to be willing to admit there's issues that can be easily abused with the perk. They're not be realistic or looking at balancing issues with it either
His normal shock works on one floor, but his big one works on multiple floors which is why Gideon is such a good map for him.
Reassurance should be limited in such a way that it will pause the timer for no more than a combined total of 60 seconds.
Once those combined 60 seconds have elapsed, the perk cannot be used on that survivor anymore.
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@BrokenSouI said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3129663#Comment_3129663
That's more of a problem with booba then anything tbh. Once per hook state is my issue initial reaction. But I think it would be ok if it didn't work on multi levels. That's THE biggest issue with it greifing/bully wise. SWFs sending people to the game, Midwhich, etc and using it on the opposite floor is more of a problem then infinite time on the hook. At least if it's limited to the same floor. 6m is nothing and gives enough opportunity to at least hook exchange.
Every perk that works within X meters operates with the same ruleset and works three dimensionally. I'm not sure they could change a single perk to only work on the same floor without changing the entire ruleset.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3129264#Comment_3129264
That would still buff most SWFs, because most SWFs aren’t 4 people, and that would give SWFs extra information about the survivors that are not in their SWF.
The end result is SWFs that aren’t 4 people would have their escape rate raised.
No, it wouldn't. The HUD already tells you when someone is in chase. The next logical step is for it to simply tell you who's doing what, not where.
This doesn't lead to an increase in swf escape rates unless the killer plays poorly, in which case I'd say they earned the win. It makes no difference to a swf what the solos are doing because they can't communicate with the solos.
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@Dead_Harder said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3129346#Comment_3129346
Healing from others maybe. If you heal yourself under the hook though, you are turning off otr and ds and putting yourself at the killers mercy.
Maybe the average survivor thinks that wise, the average survivor is also pretty ######### at the game.
It's just really old advice.
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@Blackboar22 said:
Tunneling is when a killer does everything in his/her power to get someone out of the game, ignoring other survivors, gens, winning and all that which is why its called tunneling, tunnel vision. But now people complain about tunneling after a survivor body blocks with bt or off the record, or even if the killer randomly finds the previous survivor they hooked, 1minute after the person was hooked. They even call it tunneling if the survivor is self caring under the hook like come on, thats the survivor playing poorly, not the killer tunneling.
It's long been held that healing under the hook is better than running off to the corner of the map to heal.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3128906#Comment_3128906
"The solution is to shrink maps, bridge the gap between solo and swf, nerf the survivor role as a whole, and buff killers where necessary."
Making all the maps smaller would help. But how are you going to bridge the gap between voice coms and none? Giving killer and solo survivors extra perks to make SWF weaker would do exactly that.
"Swfs have the equivalent of team-related information perks. It doesn't really matter where the killer is when you can deduce from the hud whether or not they're in chase"
That information isn't always readily available without voice coms or aura reading perks. But if you have voice coms you don't need a perk - one of your friends can tell everyone else where they are leading the killer. Without giving solo survivors free perks how do you intended to even out that advantage? You can't.
Giving solos the same level of information swf gets bridges the gap. This means things like basekit kindred, and HUD Icons that tell you what each survivor is doing.
Swf gets no benefit from this because they already have this information. That addresses the Solo vs Swf imbalance. For killers, basekit regression buffs and smaller maps. That addresses the imbalance between killers and swfs in a way that's fair for everyone. Then the survivor role can be nerfed as a whole.
There is no justifiable reason why killers should be OP by mere virtue of them being killers. This is not a simulator where you play against bots.
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@Volcz said:
This game was created w/ solo in mind. SWF was added to the game because it was something the community (at the time) asked for quite a bit. No surprise the game is unbalanced as can be.
That's wrong. MandyTalk already addressed the whole "Swf wasn't intended to be in the game" debate. The feature wasn't ready at launch which is why the game launched without it, but it was always intended to be part of the game. It is also intended and expected for those survivors to be on comms, while information perks are made with solos in mind.
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Anything that works within X meters applies three-dimensionally. Breakout works across multiple floors, for example, as does Starstruck.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3127929#Comment_3127929
"Here's what happens when you tell the killer they're playing against a swf: Lobby dodge."
Let's talk about this for a second. Why does a killer dodge a lobby? They see something in the looby that says I don't want to play against that. So what about a SWF makes a killer want to dodge a lobby? SWF gives an advantage and they would rather not play against that given the choice.
If as I have said in other places I get +4 perks of my choice for playing against SWF groups then I would ALWAYS want to play against SWF groups (the perks would be chosen ahead of time and only activate if the game inlcuded a SWF team. Any non SWF players would get +4 information perks).
One of the advantages you get in a SWF is that you don't need to spend perks to see auras. You never need to bring perks like Rookie Spirit because your team can tell you where the gens are. You never need to bring Kindred because your friend can tell you if you are being camped. Your friends can tell you when they throw shack pallet so you know not to go there. You can call out a location to meet friends to go to heal each other - making perks like bond/empathy completely unnecessary.
All the while you get the benefit of those perks without actually selecting those perks. You get the best of both worlds as you get information perks as a result of talking in your SWF and you can bring whatever action perk you want. This allowed for SWF groups to bring the "ultimate" build in previous patches : Unbreakable, DH, DS, BT.
Do you know what happened when people used that build in solo queue? They got destroyed compared to when they used it in a SWF. In short being in a SWF gives you extra perks.
If the solo players in the game with a SWF got extra perks to compensate it would make SWF far less valuable. Take a moment for example to imagine playing against nurse with 8 perks. What can you come up with?
How about : No way out, Remember Me, Overcharge, Call of Brine, Starstruck, Agitation, Floods of Rage, Lethal Pursuit.
That would be fun to play against - right?
If you think that would not fun to play against then how much fun is it to play against a SWF team that uses voice coms to gain an advantage?
How many perks worth of information you get out of a SWF varies as some groups are only one or two perks but when I play in a SWF it's closer to about 16 perks worth of information. Many years ago there was an exploit that allowed killers to use as many perks as they wanted. This was called cheating and was patched out of the game. Meanwhile being able to talk and bring 2-16 extra perks worth of information is just "standard" for SWF? Hello?
Swfs have the equivalent of team-related information perks. It doesn't really matter where the killer is when you can deduce from the hud whether or not they're in chase, and from their terror radius if they're nearby. Most swfs play just as well without comms.
Killers have no perks that are equivalent to that because their objective is the opposite. Thus giving them extra perks of their choosing to compensate would actually be busted beyond belief and allow for builds that completely prevent survivors from doing their objective.
The solution isn't to break the game by power-creeping killers and solos. The solution is to shrink maps, bridge the gap between solo and swf, nerf the survivor role as a whole, and buff killers where necessary.
Doing so will ensure killers can get downs at a consistent pace which is arguably better than just breaking the entire game because of the swf boogyeman.
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Sure, I'll bite. Give them some sort of BP Bonus for hooking a different survivor. 500 BP in whichever category it best fits. Give it a lore reason like it excites the entity when the killer torments the survivors or something.
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I think initially there'll be a lot of buzz around the perk and survivors will have fun sticking it to killers but that will get old fast. I'd hate to be the poor guy hooked at 5 gens, camped and just left there until EGC.
Reassurance is blatantly overtuned, but rather than giving it an excessive cooldown, it should just be limited to twice per game, per survivor. That extends the hook timer by 60 seconds, which is equivalent to an extra hook state, and encourages survivors to use it wisely.
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Because Plague and Legion could consistently keep all four survivors injured. There was really no need to buff Thana in the first place because they increased gen times to 90 seconds from 80 seconds.
All they had to do was revert Thana.
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@StarLost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3127929#Comment_3127929
If it's hard to get killers to play against SWFs, doesn't that indicate a problem, though?
SWF doesn't need to be 'nerfed', so much as solo queue needs help (in a way that won't buff SWFs - very difficult).
However, there are a few things that probably should be done to help make SWFs a bit less obnoxious.
- If a survivor changes items or perks after the killer hits 'ready', the countdown is paused and the killer is unreadied. There's nothing quite like seeing a sudden switch to 4x flashlights without there being any way for me to switch to a counter.
- People playing in a group gain a small, proportional inflation to their MMRs, depending on the size of the group. Say...1.1x for 2 people, 1.2x for 3 people and 1.4x for a full squad. This allows the communication advantage to be offset by a slightly stronger opponent, and also frees up killers at the original MMR point for solos.
It indicates that there's a grey area in that regard. Do killers not want to play against swfs because they're unbalanced, because solos are easier to play against, or because of the bully squad boogyman?
I agree that solos need help, and giving them the same level of information a swf has would significantly reduce the gap between solo and swf. Swf doesn't benefit from information they already have via comms.
Both of your suggestions sound fair. I can't really gauge MMR since I'm not sure if it even works in Australia.
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@maximo99ac said:
swf needs to be nerfed they are playing with all aura perks for free or al least killers need to know when they are going to play againts a swf
Here's what happens when you tell the killer they're playing against a swf: Lobby dodge.
@Guest said:
Maybe do what some tournaments do in limiting multiples of items and the same perks. I would also add a way to track individual survivors so when swfs get cute and run the same survivor with the exact same outfit.
Tournaments have different rules because there's prize money on the line and the rules apply to both survivors and killers. If you wanted to place restrictions on survivors, it'd only be fair for restrictions to be applied to killer as well.
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I don't see reassurance becoming a meta perk, since it still doesn't solve the core issue that being camped isn't fun and actively prevents one person from participating in normal gameplay.
Non-participation is part of survivor gameplay, but is clearly intended to be temporary, hence why hook timers are quite generous and why face-camping was changed.
I can't imagine being the poor survivor downed at 5 gens by a camping basement insidious monstrous shrine bubba who's then forced to just hang there on the hook for the entire game because nobody's going to attempt the rescue and instead just use reassurance every 30 seconds.
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@Slan said:
I do not think swf should be nerfed yet. The priority should be a solo Q fix and then I would address this. Now SWF has some things that may make a game pretty unbalanced, like the fact that everyone can know where is the killer when someone is being chased, there is an Object of Obsession or when someone sees him from afar. Making pressure against a SWF is very difficult sometimes, as they often repair strategically to make things difficult for the killer. Yes, you can sometimes outplay them, but you'll often need a miracle. Due to this, sometimes you will not rank up as you should (before the rank update I could not get to purple ranks because of the SWF groups and now I have awful times with them that lower my MMR for sure). The ideal solution would be the famous competitive mode, a gamemode that could only be played solo and that would affect the ranks and the MMR, alongside the casual mode, that could be played with friends, would not take in count or afect the ranks and MMR and I think that DCing penalties should not be applied to it.
Splitting the player base will only hurt the game more than it'd help.
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@Tostapane said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3127305#Comment_3127305
It's funny how people believe in those lies, you know? If that was the case then information perks like bond, kindred, premonition, spine chill, etc etc shouldn't be here in the 1st place... They told so because they gain money from it, without mentioning that people want to play with their friends, hence why in the beginning they had the problem of lobby dodging until people find their friends in the same lobby so they were forced to add that feature, without thinking at the balance of the game doing so... the game wasn't thinked with swf in mind, you like it or not... Remember that devs before adding 10 seconds to generators also said that genspeed was fine and generators didn't needed to be adressed...
You can't claim it's a lie if you have no evidence to support your claim.
As we are not privy to their development process, we can only take what they say at face-value.
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@Huge_Bush said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3127305#Comment_3127305
As long as all of your suggestions are implemented at the same time or before reworking her then sure, rework her. But gutting her like so many whining children want, without reducing map sizes and obscene strong loops and tiles, and making things fair for all killers to compete with the power of SWF, shouldn’t happen.
We all know it’ll never happen. It’s too much work for the devs to actually go into every map and balance them to be fair. They like how the game has crap rng. They also know reworking Nurse will alienate a large portion of the player base, which is why they didn’t touch her powers when they rewrote her code.
Gutting her like the whining children want wouldn't balance the game, so we're in agreeance.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3126940#Comment_3126940
How do you know they're going to be tunneled just because they're new? If matchmaking is working as intended, they should be going against some killers they're level, maybe some killers your level, and maybe some killers in-between, which was an anti-smurf measure baked into the MMR system. Neither solos nor SWF are given a safe zone just because.
But you're comparing apples to oranges anyway. You went from the buffs and debuffs conversation to suddenly talking about playstyle. Tunneling is a playstyle just like being altruistic is a playstyle, but being efficient (in the case of SWF) is not, and that's the one thing you've left out.
MMR merely attempts to find you a balanced match. If it can't, you get whatever because we can't have long queue times.
@Khelendrose2020 said:
No, SWF should not be nerfed. That said, it is too strong. For whatever reason, the game was originally designed for 4 survivors who can't communicate. There was no invite option. So, they need to balance the game around SWF play capabilities. Buff solo que survivors to have similar information and buff killers to compensate.
That would mitigate the swf impact on killers, especially M1 killers.
This is blatantly false, as confirmed by MandyTalk in a previous thread. The game was always intended to have swf, and it is intended for them to be communicating. The feature simply wasn't ready at launch.
@Tostapane said:
they shouldn't be nerfed indeed... it's sufficient to relegate this feature in custom matches (KYF), in that way solo survivors will be buffed as concequences...
Absolutely not. As I said above, swf is an intended feature. It is also intended for them to be communicating. All this would accomplish is making swf players quit or lobby dodge until they got each other. Both of these would skyrocket queue times and do absolutely nothing to help solo queue.
@DBDVulture said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/340572/swf-shouldnt-and-never-should-be-nerfed
SWF could have limits placed on it so you can't be a bully squad.
Add restriction : No repeated characters/perks/items in a SWF group.
Add Overhead icons to each survivor. Non repeated perks are in Blue (and look like the Vigil buff) and repeated perks are in red (like when debuffed by Monstrous Srhine.
Since most SWF groups are 2 people this has almost no effect on the majority of players.
Since having 3-4 people in a SWF is a huge advantage this will limit their ability to bully killers.
You still get to play with your friends and you aren't punished. You just play by a ruleset that is already being enforced in tournaments to make the game more fair for killer. If you don't like it then you can always play solo.
Tournament players represent less than 1% of the player base. They have their own rules because of their skill level. Making swf play by a ruleset that only applies to swf is punishing them for playing with their friends.
Out of all swfs, bully squads represent less than 1% and are few and far between.
@Huge_Bush said:
And as such, killer mains deserve a killer powerful enough to beat or at least compete with the best SWF, which is why Nurse should never be nerfed.
I do agree that people playing with their friends shouldn't be punished.
Nurse needs to be reworked from the ground up. Nurse is an outdated killer that can never truly be considered balanced without absolutely gutting her.
Instead, maps should be reduced in size, solo's buffed to close the gap between swf, the survivor role then nerfed as a whole and killers buffed accordingly based on those changes.
If killers can get downs at a consistent pace, then all that communication you're all so worried about isn't going to matter. I don't recall who said this, but it's a statement that definitely rings true.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3126693#Comment_3126693
"Swfs are not throwing off the balance of the game"
"The only difference between a swf and solo queue is information."
I guarantee you if I take 3 of my friends and play against you in a private match we will win more games on average with voice coms. You can say : the generator at killer shack is 50% completed. And if you rotate off a gen with 10% or less progress then you saved a ton of time. This tranlates to efficiency.
It's a lie to say that voice coms do not aid in efficiency/coordination. If I have distortion I can tell my team if the killer has Lethal or BBQ. Killers are much easier to handle when you know what perks they are using. If you are very familiar with the killer you might be able to determine the addons.
Imagine if we went into every map in DBD and had the same 4 players race to find all five totems and complete 5 gens with the killer afk. If After rotating through all the maps 10 times we removed voice coms it would be the expectation that it would take longer to find the totems/complete the gens in the next 10 rotations. For both trials we would use no perks/items to help find totems.
"Communication doesn't magically make a noob play like Oracle."
And let's have a little tournament where Oracle isn't allowed to use voice coms but everyone else in the tournament gets voice coms. Know what the result would be? Oracle loses. Communication is a huge advantage when one team has it and another team does not.
You don't have to play like Oracle to get an advantage from voice coms. I played today with 1 veteran, 1 intermediate and 1 "noob". The noob told us which killer we were facing every round thanks to the loading prompt. Even that is an advantage because you know to hide vs certain killers. Every round we called out Lethal+BBQ because someone brought distortion. We regularly called out the killer's location and that too is a huge advantage.
From time to time I get streamer in my lobby. If they are live I love to listen in to their coms when they are playing 3-4 man SWF groups. It's hilarious when people say it's ok I have DS right before I pick them up. So I don't and instead slug them. People always call out to their group if they have unbreakable. So of course I stop a chase and return to immediately pick them up. By listening to the calls they make I know exactly how to counter everything they are doing. They tell me which generators to go kick. They tell me where they put their boons. I don't watch while I play - just listen. But the information they give me always throws the game to my favor.
If talking were not an advantage then I wouldn't listen to their stream as I played against them to try and counter that advantage.
I don't have the patience to explain to you in detail why it boils down to a skill issue if you can't beat a swf. When solos have access to the same level of information swfs has, you'll understand that comms don't make up for a lack of skill.
You listening in on a streamer's comms doesn't mean they have an advantage, it means you have an advantage, because you know their next move before they make it. It's why stream sniping is frowned upon. That is an unfair advantage, and swfs with comms is intended.
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@Razy01 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3126693#Comment_3126693
I never play killer. Probably one match every 6 months as killer. My suggestion is purely from a survivor main point of view so you're just completely wrong. Don't jump to the conclusion that I'm a killer player just because of my suggestion 🤦🏻♂️
In your original post, you said that you recently dabbled as killer again and that swf matches are still infuriating and very unbalanced. That's from killer perspective, which contradicts you saying that your suggestion is purely from a survivor main point of view.
If it was from a survivor perspective, there is no way you would suggest it in the first place since you'd be matching with a duo + 1 solo or a trio. If you play killer once every 6 months, how are you so certain it isn't a skill issue?
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@Razy01 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3125628#Comment_3125628
Swfs are the only thing throwing off the balance of this game. Do you have a helpful suggestion to balance this or just complain about "punishments"?
Swfs are not throwing off the balance of the game. Killers are quick to complain about the bully squads but don't notice the swfs that aren't bully squads. You pay more attention to the games you lost against a bully squad than the games you won against a casual swf who're just playing for fun.
The only difference between a swf and solo queue is information. Anything else is a player's individual skill. Communication doesn't magically make a noob play like Oracle.
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Pips on the survivor side are too reliant on the killer actively cooperating with you. Given that grades are largely meaningless, it would go a long way to not only do what you've suggested here but also remove depipping.
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You can't punish people for playing with friends. Giving SWF a debuff is doing exactly that. Limiting what perks they can bring is doing exactly that. This isn't the first time I've seen these kinds of suggestions and the solutions are and always will be to buff solo queue and reduce map sizes.
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@Mat_Sella said:
If they don't understand that ensuring the gen getting *permanently* done is more important than a constantly in flux health state, they deserve their death.
If I'm running my altruistic build, ill heal them right there. Still hate them tho.
It's more beneficial to heal your teammates than to leave them injured. Unless the killer has ruin, the gen can wait.
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@Zolfo16 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3123033#Comment_3123033
Well... no. They do that because it is beneficial to them and time efficient.
Until it's not.
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@AcelynnBen said:
tbh i would agree but have the feeling that survivors will be toxic about it
so no thanks
Unless the killer is running at 250ms while the survivors are all hovering around 50ms, there'd be nothing for them to be toxic about in that regard. A killer who runs at 60ms against 50ms survivors isn't going to be very noticable.
A killer who has extremely high ping against survivors with relatively low ping is going to get hits they had absolutely no business getting.
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@AetherBytes said:
Yes, lets remove the killers ability to punish hook bombing and attempted farming. Why don't we just get rid of their ability to break pallets and use their powers too?
This needs its root issue fixed, the fact Survivors can just swarm a hook and guarantee a rescue is what causes a lot of what is considered "camping." If survivors stopped rushing hook, killers would camp less since survivors would just do gens instead. Of course there are facecampers who do need to be removed, but survivors need a way to give killers more reason to leave hook.
If survivors stopped rushing hook, killers would camp less since survivors would just do gens instead.
"If gens didn't fly so fast, killers wouldn't camp/tunnel", "If chases were shorter, killers wouldn't camp/tunnel", "If maps were smaller, killers wouldn't camp/tunnel", the list just goes on.
If this patch has proved anything, it's that killers don't need a reason to camp or tunnel. They'll do it simply because they can.
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@Naz said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3122052#Comment_3122052
To me, the best punishment for someone running right up to you to try and unhook right after you hook is to grab them. That way they don't get the unhook credit, their teammate can as I make my way to the next hook. Seems fair to me. There will always be those that abuse grab but the rest of us shouldn't pay for that.
Unfortunately, changing hook grabs is one of the few solutions there is to deal with the issue of camping.