Icaurs
Icaurs
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Brutal strength, I think can work, the increased vault speed could also help decrease the distance gained on loops, however I think the stun time should not be touched. The reason being is because of the unsafe pallets where the survivor can only gain distance if they get the stun and I would be concerned decreasing the stun time would make those pallets useless. With bloodlust this would result in chases bloodlust shorter as killers wold get the speed boost faster. Would you be willing to increase the average amount of pallets to compensate this? As for the undetectable and gen regression, They should be fine.
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How are they abusing it? The perk only has 60 seconds before it automatically deactivates, same with BT. If you have a probblem with it then just don't tunnel?
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I can't find a flaw in your logic.
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Firstly, because if we nuke all the meta perks, this will promote more perk variety. Nobody likes to see Pain Resonance, Corrupt, PGTW, DMS ect every game. Nobody likes to see DH, DS, BT and CoH every game. These are examples, not the only things being nerfed.
Wrong. The reason is that it is not the strength of the perk itself but rather what it does. For example DS/BT are meta not because they are strong, they really aren't. The reason they are meta is because they are needed in current DBD due to the majority of killers adopting the tunnel/ camp playstyle. For example I remember when power struggle was first being announced, everybody said this perk would be meta and is so abusive and blah blah blah. Power struggle was never nerfed and it is an extremely rare perk. Because it is a gimmick, a joke. How can it ever be at the same level as say DS. We would either have to A majorly buff power struggle, which would be ridiculous or nerf DS which would result in far more camping tunnelling. Now you mention some of this in your next point, however even if you think I'm wrong, this would make the game unplayable until all of these issues are fixed. People asked for years for simply a second objective for survivors and they came up with boon totems, which have had a serious negative impact on the game.
Secondly, this will allow the Devs to look at the base-game issues. No Survivors enjoys being tunneled or camped. We might understand that it's necessary, but it's not enjoyable for anyone involved. No Killer enjoys seeing gens fly and structures chain together so perfectly, the best advise anyone can give is, "Yeah, just don't chase there." By destroying the perks that mask these issues, we can finally make a game where there is a punishment for camping/tunneling because there's not a need to do so. Likewise, we can do something about gen speeds and problematic loops/maps.
Ok, but the fact is DBD is balanced for the most part. It is really only at the highest point of DBD where things get really broken, however the overwhelming amount of DBD is balanced. 2 kills and 2 escapes is the majority of matches, it is even worse in solo quee where the killer rates skyrocket. Gen speeds need to exist because killers tunnel and camp, not the other way around. If we doubled gen speeds kilers would know time is in their favour and can camp with no consequences. They have increased gen times before, this is a fact. Now you can say (ok, lets fix camping). Hate to say it but this has been tired countless times and has failed very time, either the killers exploit or the survivors do. I have made posts about this before. Now you can say (ok lets change how the whole hook system works). At that point you are changing the fundamentals of the entire game, and honestly perks are the least of my concerns..
Lastly, because of power creep. Every single meta perk (on both sides) is kind of bonkers busted OP. I'm talking absurdly good. No perk is ever going to beat out Dead Hard. No perk is gonna beat out CoH or DS. The issue is that any perk that actually challenges the pre-established meta is FAR FAR FAR too strong, see Circle of Healing.
Again, it is not the perks themselves but rather what they do that is the issue. For killers the best perk for every single killer in the game, are perks that slow down generators. Nothing is really are strong as that. I recommend you watch this joke video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IaRUKWGGh8&t=115sYes it is comedy, but the point is that all the best perks for killers are gen slow downs. Nothing is important as that. So if you want killers to run more variety, then you need to remove them from the game.
Similar the best perks for survivors are perks that help in the chase and camping/ tunnelling. DH/DS?BT. Lastly healing is the second biggest time waste and thus COH. But before COH all survivors ran we will make it. If survivors don't have Dead hard they run LIthe. If killers do not have corrupt they run dead lock. If they do not have ruin they run pop. The perks are not the issue, it is the game design itself. You could nuke every meta perk to the point of being useless. Everybody will just run the second strongest perks. The perks should not be touched until the game itself is fixed.
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@fulltonon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2819225#Comment_2819225
100% safe palette as is is already making plenty of survivor players artificially better player than they are though, it's clearly a problem.
Objectively wrong. unfortunately the game does not measure player's skill properly but lets use shack as an example. We agree that the shack pallet is 100% safe. Well a bad survivor runs to the pallet they know is safe and throws it down. We agree that little skill is shown. However the survivor team as a whole suffers because that player got maybe 5 seconds of use from that pallet, and therefore is not skilled.
An average skilled play will take the window and loop around the shack before dropping it. Lets say you get 20-25 seconds of use. You did use the pallet more efficiently but ultimately threw it down to avoid a hit.
A skilled survivor will, take the window 3 times, optimising the loop, fake the pallet drop to slow the killer gaining yet another loop, take the longest possible route and potentially even only throw the pallet when they have complete certainty they will be hit. Possibly even allow themselves to be hit if uninjured to avoid using the pallet at that time, instead choosing to save it for when the need it more. Gaining well over a minute from one pallet. This is the same pallet in each scenario but we see 3 completely different levels of skill.
As it is there not enough safe pallets for low skilled survivors to be boosted though the MMR. That is assuming all 4 of them are at the same skill level.
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I've played the game for years so I guess this is my thoughts.
Dead Hard: 100% agree, removing the invincibility would make it a distance closer, instead of being able to just avoid an attack. Also this would fix the dead hard latency desync.
Decisive strike: Kind of agree, however unfortunately killers would simply wait out the timer. Until a system is put into place to properly discourage tunnelling/camping 60 seconds is mandatory to ensure killers do not abuse these strategies.
Boons: Boons are actually fine the way they are, there are only two issues. The first is indoor maps. Due to those maps being horizontal, they give the perk more distance then it actual should have, which is less an issue of boons and more indoor maps and why they are so poorly designed. Second issue is COH. Boon shadowstep is fine, strong but with only limited distance its fairly well made. The other two are so weak I have never seen them used once. Not including the first weak when the artist was released. COH needs a complete rework but that is it. Perhaps a timer should also be put in place after they are deactivated, to give killers more of an incentive to snuff them out but I don't think it is that important.
Gen kicking: Unfortunately certain killers simply have too much map mobility to allow for a 5% regression per kick. I would be fine if all killers moved at say hag speed, but on nurse, Blight? It would simply be too strong, and would require communication to beat.
Basekit borrowed time: I agree with basekit borrowed time however It would need to be longer then 5 seconds, as killers would simply wait it out. I believe 8 seconds minimum if not 10-12. Alternatively we could make it the current BT timer. The perk could work similar to the old BT, which use to apply to both the hooked and the unhooked, as means to fix survivors form simply trading hooks.
Basekit NOED. I would agree too this, however . First a counter in the corner to know how man totems are done, so they are not wasting time searching for a completed objective. Second unfortunately this idea would actually hurt killers them most. survivors would be concerned more about NOED then anything else and this would in turn cripple hex totems. Especially the stronger ones that get stronger as time goes on.
Automatic endgame collapse: I was a little unsure what it is you want here, but I understand you want to avoid survivors from stalling. Simple fix make the exit gate progress bar regress. this would mean survivors cannot 99% the door. It would also put more pressure on the survivors as it would force them either too leave the door closed giving the killer more time to get extra hooks, or open it, thus starting the survivors countdown to an automatic loss.
Non gameplay related things: Completely agree. Unfortunately this idea has been asked for before and the devs are incapable to doing that.
No Perk tiers: this has been asked for many times and in the latest development stream they explained why they have not done this and it is very stupid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIocxDbQ-9gEssentially they believe that removing the perk tiers would not decrease the grind enough to justify removing them, despite the fact they are objectively wrong.
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So let's split your topic into two points.
First the teabagging. Yes it is a legitimate strategy. Maintaining the killer's attention is important at times to ensure they are not pressuring generators. Is it annoying? Sure. But so is smacking a survivor on a hook, tea bagging as as pig/ scream. However in these situations the killer has nothing to gain by doing this, it is only done to taunt. At least with survivors you can argue that wanting to be chased is an actual strategy. In all honestly its a game and if you can't deal with people teabagging, maybe you just should not play online games.
Second no pallet should be safe? Completely disagree. Plenty of maps do not have the space for exclusively unsafe pallets, this would result in even more empty spaces then there already are and would artificially make you feel like you are better player then you are. Most killers have means of negating pallets and if you are finding yourself struggling, maybe you need to practice with killers that simply negate them.
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@PhantomChimera said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2809422#Comment_2809422
Things were considerably worse when the DC penalty is not active so it isn't useless.
Ahh yes players being held hostage by hackers, people being forced to remain in matches while players a toxic or (trolling). Or being forced to remain in matches where players disconnect or all kill themselves on hook. All so that people won't disconnect. Which people easily get around anyway just by allowing themselves to die on hook, making the whole disconnect penalty irrelevant.
This system is clearly far superior then just... letting people leave a match.
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The Dc penalty is useless, and your idea is flawed. Disconnect penalties simply don't work in a game like DBD, when a player can be removed from a match partway through. You could extend the timer so it starts at 24 hours Players will just tab out until the killer kills them. Currently all the DC penalty does is punish players being held hostage by hackers, people who legitimately lose connection and force people to remain in matches where they simply have no reasonable chance of winning, just to feed the ego of the other side. It should have been removed a long time ago.
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Ruin. The thing is as things currently are gen speeds are balanced. I mean they are balanced in the sense that if a typical survivor can run the killer for a normal amount of time, and the average killer is running 4 meta perks, the match is fairly even. They really cannot risk increasing gen speeds much more, even as a perk. Especially with camping/tunnelling being so prominent.
Dead man's switch. Neat idea, unfortunately it is just another gen slowdown perk, even if it was nerfed hard, people would just change it out for eruption or something, I think those sorts of perk will always be meta, and still would not be particulars fun or unique.
Dead hard: simple dead hard nerf, remove the invulnerability. This means it can still be used to close gaps or extend chases for a few more seconds, but remove the ability to fix, any mistake a survivor makes every 40 seconds. Even with this nerf, I still think it would still be the number one perk, but I think it would feel less cheap.
Iron will: Complete rework. removing grunts of pain is simply too strong to be a permanent effect. Maybe if you made it so you had 3 minutes of no grunts of pain, and then the perk disables for the rest of the match, but at hat point it becomes tedious and difficult to strike a balance between too strong, and completely useless, like what happened with mettle of man. So scrap the perk completely. Maybe once inured you move 7% faster running/walking and crouching, when not in a chase. Either way if you want to remove grunts of pain, it should be limited with a timer.
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I think the issue is that dead hard does 2 things at once, both of which are strong. 1st the 1 second immunity, 2nd can be used as distance closer. A far more simple rework would be to remove the invulnerability. Dead hard would then be used solely for distance closing at loops and if there are no loops, simply a way to extend the chase by a few meters making the perk more situational, but still strong. It would also fix the dead hard hit validation.
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the game is dying: Yes and no. DBD constantly has periods of large amount of new players, where a fraction continue playing until the numbers decline until the next DLC. This is not the first time DBD has had as massive player drop, there just has not been anything interesting added to DBD in a while, the last one being nemesis. When the next killer/survivor comes out expect wait times to decrease.
The survivor queues are getting longer and longer: Objectively wrong it depends on the time of day, your region. Under certain situations killer wait times can be far longer then survivors. It also depends on your MMR. High MMR for both sides results in longer wait times.
so im pretty damn sure that a majority of the people who leave are killers. Wrong most players remaining as SWF, mainly because SWF is the only way to play DBD. Solo survivor is a far worse experience then killer.
i mean sure my games are almost always 4k but thats when i tryhard blight or play like nurse spirit. This is the problem, you acknowledge the power imbalance that killers have, yet most killers object to nurse/ spirit being nerfed despite the fact they are very broken. The problem is not any specific side, rather that players are bringing in killer addons/ perks ect and survivors are bringing their perks and items that are simply to strong, too often. killers are equally the cause of DBD's decline as survivors.
The fun killers are the ones getting nerfed while they are already pretty weak. Not true most nerfs are made to killer addons (pig) however the few that have been nerfed were because most killers should be getting 2 kills again, which actually is happening regularly.
The dead hard hit validation is horrible and the hitboxes are all over the place. This is a real issue both sides suffer from and while DH currently looks awful and needs to be fixed, it is working as intended so I think they have bigger issues.
The map RNGs can be the difference between a win and a loss i mean 3 jungle gyms in a row how are ou even suppose to play against that?... I agree a lot of maps should have at least a set amount, unfortunately when they did do this, killers complained because smaller maps resulted in more pallets, not less. In fact the majority of map changes were introduced due to killers complaining and they have not stopped since 2016.
killers and survivors complain about haddonfield well maybe rework that map? Should have been reworked a long time ago.
I think the game is focusing more on the survivors than killers. 100% wrong, almost all reworks have been killer sided regarding maps, how many maps have added extra loops?
maybe try buffing the weak killers and make killer fun again. All this results in are killers are overkitted (not overpowered). Their basekit does simply too much with little to no input, boosting low skilled players through the ranks until they reach high MMR where none of it even matters because the objective of survivors is simply too short for a killer who players the game normally, but honestly too long if a killer chooses to camp.
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@ThatOneDemoPlayer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2759213#Comment_2759213
Clicking/t-bagging can be used to draw a Killer's attention, so yeah, they're strats aswell. Leaving teammates to die is, depending on the situation, a good/the best choice. Jumping in an out of Lockers isn't really useful under any circumstance, other than trying really hard to get a Killer's attention away, which usually doesn't work.
Camping isn't done to deny the ability for a Survivor to play the game, it's strategically protecting a Hook, usually done when there are important objectives around such as Generators and Hex Totems. There's nothing toxic about playing strategically, whether that be on the Killer or Survivor side
Its not strategic, its just toxic. You are robbing a player of an ability to play the game. Now I recognise the difference between camping at 1 gen left and camping at 5 gens. So lets not talk about the end game, which is a problem in itself, but rather camping a base game strategy. What you are doing as killer it just waiting and hoping, that players do not do the objective. this is not not a skill and I struggle to see how someone can find it rewarding. As a killer if you want a player out of a match you can do it, easily if a killer can't even camp then they need to find a different game. There is no way to improve at camping as you are just waiting. Just as a survivor there is no way improve at getting camped. Neither side can implement any skill, which is why it is not a strategy or if you do consider it one, it is very toxic as you are not allowing for an actual match. This is why I hate passive gen slow down perks (corupt, deadlock) these perks require zero input from the player and while they not be the strongest killer perks in the game, they are two of the most brainless, and slowing down gens should be hard. If you goal as a killer is not to encourage fun for both sides (same goes for survivors) then what you are doing is toxic.
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@ThatOneDemoPlayer said:
Tunneling and camping are not toxic, they're strategies employed by Killers to win a game
.... that is just wow. So, anything does correct. Ok, well tea-bagging/ flashlight clicking are strategy's to keep the killers attention, so nothing wrong with that. Leaving teammates to die, jumping in and out of lockers. All of these can be considered strategies, and I would say they are all toxic. If robbing a person of the ability to properly play a game is not toxic... then there is not much need to fix anything.
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@bm33 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2738167#Comment_2738167
Did you watch the video or did you just get offended by the title? Kind of like how a black person may get offended seeing a literal black face worn by a white man in a game? If you haven't you should watch the video because it is very informative.
It's a win for the black players that won't be reminded of a terrible intrinsically racist history of black face everytime they have a match against a smart face Bubba.
It's nice for you that you don't find the mask to be racist but there are enough that do, including the devs, that it's getting removed. When you wear it as killer you don't even see the cosmetic - the only people seeing the cosmetic are the survivors, survivors that may be black and are reminded about the horrible history of blackface and racism in real life as they spend an entire match trying to not get killed by a white man literally wearing a black face.
So... Do you feel this way, if so... why? You cannot honestly believe leatherface has anything to do with historical events? Is it not more offensive to exclude a demographic on the basis of their race, I find that so discriminatory, leeatherface is a fun character who can be enjoyed by all demographics, removing some because of an unrelated historical event is really awful. If you are not offended by leatherface with claudete's face and are simply speaking on behalf of others... please don't.
Also I know that this ties into people commenting racist phrases in the end game chat, but that is why the report feature exists.
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Ok so. A long time ago DBD had this thing called (chain loops) where if you were good you could chain multiple tiles together, this was the best way to play the game, but not everyone could do it well, so killers could kill the weaker survivors who attempted this, and the game was balanced to a degree.
The Devs then removed many of these chainable loops, they then removed a bunch of pallets creating natural dead zones with nothing there for survivors to use, then blocked off many of the strong loops. Many of the killers maintained their strong addons which simply break most loops, and the devs have continued adding many killers that are actually fairly overpowered as they offer little counterplay. So with only a handful of strong loops and plenty of killer addons and powers being (anti loop) capable of negating pretty much every loop besides T-L walls the shift W meta was created.
Running loops is actually risker then picking a direction and running, because you are guaranteed a certain amount of time (usually 30 seconds). If you run to the closest tile you are actually making a far risker play, and even if you can loop the killer, you burn through resources way faster.
no flashlight rescue: Probably cause of all the gen gen slow down perks all killers run, leaving gens unfinished is too risky. The nerf to flashlights, and the fact that it is so easy to bait a flashlight save, why bother.
no bodyblocks, Because they shrunk most maps, now there simply too many hooks to close to one another. Sure in a team its possible to bodyblock but by yourself? Simply too unlikely, most of the time you are just giving the killer a free hit.
just the boring Shift+W They don't loop, just run in straight line. Explained why.
predrop pallets. Probably low ranks TBH, most skilled survivors rarely do.
They don't heal, just sit on gens, even when they are together and could easily heal each other.. Doing a gen takes 80 seconds, to heal I believe is 15 seconds (if somebody heals you. 2 people do a gen together, 40 seconds. Lets say it takes you 15 seconds to find a survivor after being hit, and for them to start healing so 30-40 seconds. Notice how much smarter it is to just do a generator instead of constantly wasting time healing. I've seen survivors spend minutes running around a map looking for teammates, being healed and 3 seconds alter they get hit, wasting so much time. The smartest way to play survivor is just do generators and rely on adrenalin.
They don't even rescue sometimes, gens before friends. This is in part due to the massive increase in killers camping and tunnelling. Not only do you waste time going for the save, but you often just cut their limited time on the hook shorter.
Before killer main start saying "But survivor is easier, they are so powerful, blah blah," understand I am just saying in terms of the actual chase, game is heavily on the side of killers., not all but most, absolutely. The only reason survivors win so much is purely gen speed.
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2746167#Comment_2746167
People should not be able to escape unless all 5 gens are done if they are not the last remaining survivor. Ever.
Also Blood Amber is still badly designed and does need some retuning, as it nullifies mindgames mid-chase.
The hatch makes the last part of the game somewhat exciting, if it is simply impossible for a player to win, they will either jump in and out of lockers to be killed or go AfK. The hatch is great and helps keep the game interesting. Same with keys, now keys did need a nerf, but apart form simply making an item useless we now have an issue with killers slugging survivors for minutes, dragging out matches. I simply with they considered these sorts of things before removing an aspect of DBD that is kind of important.
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The issue with your idea, is one side can be played with friends, and the other cannot. A significant portion of players are SWF,, and maybe they may play one killer match, but not as many as they will with friends.
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Hatch was fine the way it was, the issue was keys. They should have left hatch and simply change how keys work. Maybe only 1 survivor can escape through the hatch with a key instead of multiple, maybe only skeleton keys can allow a player to escape? There were lots of things they could have tried, but they rushed a rework because of course they did, now keys are useless, they are a gimmick item, which would be fine except they are still treated like they are rare. Would honestly rather a brown tool box then a pink key, and nobody sees an issue with this.
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I think you are trying to complicate something, that has a really easy fix. Remove the immunity on dead hard. Now killers can hit survivors if the survivor makes a mistake, instead of being able to correct any error on their part. This would also keep the primary use of dead hard, the ability to close a small amount of distance instantly. Even with this nerf, Dead Hard would still be the best exhaustion perk but would require survivors to be a bit smarter on how they use it.
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@Lochnload_exe said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2621889#Comment_2621889
very rarely, because it could only happen when all 5 gens are done, so they could just leave. How often did I see 3 man escapes? Extremely often, if one survivor is dead the moment only 1 gen remains they could leave, if you play good as killer and secure a 3 gen and start pressuring good, they could just find a key and leave lmao
Hatch was not the issue, it was keys. They did not need to change the entire hatch, when they could have just changed keys. For example Allowing keys to only allow the one who used it too escape. Or another to perhaps instead of affecting the hatch at all, use it to automatically open one door when the gates are powered. Or maybe exclusively skeleton keys could allow one survivor to escape, which then would automatically start the end game collapse. Instead they rushed out a poorly conceived rework that made the item useless. Dull keys are actually inferior to broken keys, because the chance to use one is so slim, so the only real value they have is as aura reading, which broken keys are better for.
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What about basement? Is proxy camping the same? Or killers that don't camp but tunnel, which is another issue.
Pyramid's cage was reworked like that, because what was happening was pyramid would send the cage, then go to the cage because typically that was where the survivors would be going to. Also in part due to blocking the unhook animation. So will killers be able to see the hooked survivor? If yes, then you haven't fixed the issue, if no then killers won't be able to make in reasonable strategy, it would be largely down to luck. For example, killer hooks survivor, then goes to hook and sits just outside range. survivors attempt to unhook, either killer shows up and starts camping, or the cage gets sent away and killer runs to the next spot to defend it.
There are a lot of variables and I personally don't think pyramid's cage rework was that great.
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The real issue is that the maps are too small and anyone who plays DBD regularly can easily remember any reworked totem spots. Totems are simply not well designed.
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I was all for nerfing keys, so long as they maintained some purpose. since the nerf I have seen maybe 2 people with keys and and as a killer never once had to alter my playstyle because of them. I agree either keys need to be returned to how they were, completely reworked so they have a new purpose, or removed entirely, because some of those items on blood webs take take up quite a bit of points.
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@CrashMADDS13 said:
I disagree. Even as the maps and their tiles continue to get neutered, survivors still have a huge edge against most killers. Besides, you aren't meant to beat the killer 1v1 in a chase. You are meant to buy as much time as possible for your team. This is a 4v1 game.
That is why killers have antiloop.
Please read the post before replying. I fully understand, that in a 4V1 situation survivors have the advantage, however as maps have more and more loops "Fixed" and tiles removed this is resulting in the best strategy for survivors, get hit, and run to the corner. This is not fun, for either side
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@Cropsy said:
Not too easy to play. And looping isn't fun. Good survivors have the edge.
Looping overall is a lame mechanic. It's like an annoying version of the chase part of duck, duck, goose without the endorphins from actually moving. At launch, stealth was the skill survivors needed, which is a better fit for a game called Dead by Daylight--not tea-bagging/parkour by daylight.
I agree, however too many killer powers and perk simply negate stealth. Interestingly when DBD initially focused on stealth the game was more balanced as the match was slower, allowing for more time for killers go get downs. Unfortunately too many killers now simply remove that option.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2698691#Comment_2698691
2:35 involved a little mindgame on the tile, I did take the path to try and make the survivor not know the way I'm coming, as you can see
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/YM5W8H2ZL3DT/image.png
she was still there even though she was already on that side of the loop way before I got there. She only got that wall later on (after she saw me). I negated the loop using an unusual path since you mostly see players going straight to the survivor using their same path; doing that she can react and get to pallet/window. This is a negating a loop with the help of confusing the survivor, it's not a bruteforcing and you cannot really do that usually. (I do that a lot by myself as you can see in other vids, my movements tends to be unusual since I mindgame a lot of stuff) - pure anti-looping (this was actually an attempt)
5:30 that was a reverse chainsaw mindgame, negated a loop just because the survivor did not pay attention to the killer. That's pure anti-looping and I honestly I don't see anything wrong with it. Why would you need perks to negate any loop in this game, you speak about them... you can definitely tell how weak a killer is if you MUST use addons or even perks to negate any kind of loop. (While I do use Bamboozle for some, since we know what happens with the windows).
I told you cannot pressure 4 people at once which is true, it depends on how well the survivor team knows to play against Leatherface and what structures they use, windows, jungle gyms, T L walls.. main building/chaining tiles. You are as well not guaranteed for any loop win, it's just on the survivor's atention.. it's not even close to Nurse where if the killer is good, you can be the best... you still die.
Every single tile in this game for Leatherface is a 50/50, even the short loops since pallets get you stunned, give distance to survivors, windows exists, chaining of tiles exists as well... a lot of main building and big maps. The only time you get a down 100% is a deadzone which is not a problem from the killer itself but rather a unproper placed survivor (or to say, a weaker one).
I did not say you can 100% negate loops... I said you can do that but that doesn't mean you will succeed. That's what you should do to make it work but it doesn't work like that... theory doesn't always work in practice; and as you can see it didn't actually work well for me too. A lot of the time I'm super mad at eating pallets all game long, not being able to negate any loops and boom... the result is a 1 kill or maybe 2 by camping at EGC... that usually also means I face a strong team.
and one more thing "negating loops should not be power", I kind of disagree... if the power itself allows for anti-looping that makes the killer strong & fun, and by looking at what was recently released in DbD... you can definitely see that killers are made to negate loops as much as possible.. some more, others less.
Negate loops for LF is between Bruteforcing and mindgaming. If you constantly bruteforce you may end up with no kills since eating a pallet ain't downing a survivor.
Mindgaming is what matters, but that is not always on your side. I can see that bruteforcing is not much fun for survivors but the way Leatherface works, the way his power works, the way his entire character from the movie works... it's the only way from what I can see to make him playable fitting the current game mechanics in DbD. However you have the forum for suggestions in this case, feel free.. I'd like to read your suggestion!
You don't understand my point. I don't care that you can hide your red stain for 2 seconds. That isn't even a leatherface technique, you can do that with most killers, it takes a little practice. The issue is that you started using your power on one side of a tile and it carried you all the way around back to where you started. That alone would make it one of the strongest powers in the game, as only a few killers can do that, but you can instantly down with the same power. That is not skilful, It is actually really easy, if she had ran earlier, although if she did you would have been able to hear her, change direction, because he is the only killer with an instant downing ability that can do that, maybe she could have survived. But even if she did, you could just cancel your power early and begin regaining your charges, and immediately swap to an M1 hit, on 115 killer.
Cause he has no penalty. when I say penalty, I mean when you mess up your hatchet with Huntress you are punished for it, because she has either throw the hatchet wasting it, or put it away, wasting more time. But leatherface as nothing like this, only the tantrum, which is his only thing that requires some level of practice. Before you say he has to put it away, because he instantly breaks pallets, you need a wall to separate you al the time, and even then it may not be enough because of how fast he goes.
5:30 I don't care about the mindgame, what I care about it even if he did everything right you would forced him to drop the pallet, break it, and then continue the chase while regaining your charges. He has no penalty. That is what he is missing, just make it that chainsaw cannot break pallets and he would be fixed. HIllbilly should be allowed to break pallets because he has to release his chainsaw in the direction of the pallet, but leatherface does not, they are not the same killer, and only hillbilly should be allowed to do that.
If negating is tiles is going to become a power, then the run in a straight line strategy will become the norm. This is boring for both sides, killers complain about this all the time (Artist is the newest one of these). Yet you encourage it.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2698337#Comment_2698337
As you can definitely see, the mistakes that happened in the game will happen to absolutely anyone... the best of the best killers just because it's naturally for a human to make mistakes. Sometime you can have wrong decisions as your game evolve because you are stressed by the game progression or some chase.. then you ######### up.
My point is, a good team of survivors knows how to play against you. You negate loops, that's the least you can do... otherwise just think that without that you cannot even end some of the chases that even provide a slightly better outcome in your game.
You could see that I'm running an addon for my chainsaw for better charge and STILL... it's not that piece of cake game.
All of the survivors the same will make some mistakes where will be able to dominate on, get some value and change the game course. But with all in that into account, you can see a very hug difference from a team of survivors who stands absolutely no chance and another team who gives you that 50-50 (not even sometime) chance to win. You do 1 or 2 mistakes and you can lose your game even with a big boy that has insta-down and negates most of your loops. Now hopefully you can get my meaning, if you nerf his chainsaw power... this is not going to be good man and I understand that you genuinely think he is a problem... but sir, you are really going to ######### him up really bad in high mmr.
Btw I do appreciate the commentary
Just to add as a note for you, you should never go for an m1... only when you just cannot secure a straight down because Leatherface really suffers from that term people use "gen-rush", you don't have anything on your side besides a really good chase power that you can ######### that up as well. If you watch my other stuff, again with my main Bubba... you are going to see some trend going on when I play this power. The more you m1, the more time you will lose in your game and probably lose; not saying M1 is not allowed but it will favor the survivor team.
I did quickly see something that you probably did not notice, the 3:00 commentary in my video from your reply. After she can drop a pallet either from my coming from another side, she still has time to reach the SHACK once again (or the tile on the left) and use the window, prolong the chase by all means even if the survivors still has the same faith to go down by later in the match (remember she had lithe). You cannot reach someone as I said, 2 charges are not enough because of the distance. if you chase goes for more than 1 minute in your game, you will see the holy Tinkerer really driving you insane.
I think we misunderstand each other. What you said, is the reason why I hate leatherface so much.
"My point is, a good team of survivors knows how to play against you. You negate loops, that's the least you can do."
All a survivor can really do to outrun the killer is use loops. Negating an entire loop is really busted. This is why the running in a straight line across the map has become such an optimal strategy. More and more of the strong killer do not allow for proper looping, meaning the best thing a survivor can do is pick a direction and run. I hate this strategy a lot. That is why I really want to Emphasise 2:35 and 5:30. Both times you essentially negate the entire loop. Without any perks. Now you can say that leatherface still cannot pressure 4 survivors at once., but if we acknowledge that he negates most loops, the only way to beat him is to do the gens faster then he can down. This both requires no skill, and is unfun.
Oh I wasn't trying to point out every mistake you made. I was simply trying to show that in the video both sides could have played better and had either of you capitalized on it they might have lasted a few more seconds and you could have gotten an extra down. Believe me I know everyone makes mistakes in every match, (from experience) my main point is that simply negating negating a loop should not be a power.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2698111#Comment_2698111
With addons, yes he can kill you and that is also fine.
He is not an easy killer at all, there's the difference between good and bad survivors.. go and face a strong team and you'll change your perspective. (Actually he is easy to pick-up, yes... not to master; his power is simple)
I have made a video on this matter, a gameplay.. one of the many:
When survivors are good, you are kind of #########.
Ok this actually is interesting. Looking at the video.
1:28 you run into your first survivor. He cannot use the first pallet he sees because no matter what side he goes on you can instant down. maybe he could get a stun but otherwise you would have instantly broken the pallet putting him in a position for you to use your chainsaw again, because there is no penalty. You then screw up and go for a chainsaw but you could have gotten an M1 because you are 115 killer.
1:45 you don't want him to drop the pallet because you know that if the pallet is up you can outspeed him if he tires looping you.
1:54 you begin your first mind game. Now apart from the fact that unlike most killers a single screw up as far more devastating due to it being an instant down. If he tired looping and you continued your direction you would have got the hit. So he had to vault which allowed you to double back keeping momentum. Solid mindgame however lets say he guessed right. you would have broken the pallet instantly putting him in a really bad position. No matter what he did he was likely to either go down or get hit by an M1.
2:25 she is diagonally across the tile from you. The furthest distance possible. you then release your chainsaw and go, not across the tile but around, going the longest possible distance. Now in that instant she could have gone for the vault, but in her defence look how far you acutely are. You cover the entire tile. This is the issue, look how much distance you cover in one go. Worse still if she tried looping around the pallet you would have caught up to her or best case scenario she drops the pallet, you break it and now she is out positioned, for you to, yet again INSTANTLY DOWN.
3:00 she could have ran earlier honestly, but again you negate the entire shack with one perk and then you release the chainsaw because you are hopping for no random pallets, you get unlucky, but then you screw up and allow yourself to get hit by the pallet, had you done that thre would have been nowhere for her to.
3:20 she is just messing around XD
3:48 you release the chainsaw on one side of the wall, if you went for the kate she would have been forced to drop the pallet as it was impossible to make it too the window. You then went for Yun during the same chainsaw and she only survives because of dead hard.
Here we go 5:30. This right here is my biggest problem with leatherface. You cannot loop him. Look at that the only thing he could do was drop the pallet. Experienced players know this which is why they drop them early. You are simply too fast with too many swings it was impossible. The fact that those tiles do not work him is ridiculous. Now he might have been able to use the window, but that is a different tile.
6:05 not sure what she was dong but you go for a chainsaw, realise that she is going to vault and then cancel it. Instead of being punished for your mistake, you are able to quickly swap to an M1 hit. Because leatherface has no penalty for mistakes other then the tantrum.
6:54 your mistake
7:11, No words. Not even a leatherface issue.
7:27 Shack, one of the strongest loops in the game, she can't vault the window because you can easily change direction and would get a hit. looping the tile would be too risky, maybe she could have ran earlier, but still by the time you arrive she is already at the other entrance, you release your chainsaw, she is forced to drop it and you instantly break it, because again there is no downside.
7:32, she cannot go for the window because you can easily change direction and get the instant down. So she attempts to run around the tile, you release your chainsaw, she does not want to just throw down every pallet so she saves it but your swing is simply to busted and you go all around the tile to the locker, forcing her to jump in. Now if she went the other way, (clockwise) maybe she could have ran around to the window to keep the loop going, but again you would have just bamboozled it, negating the loop.
8:44, saves the pallet forgets your swing is too long and too fast, and you beat him around. If he guessed right he could have dropped the pallet but again a normal 115 speed killer he should have beaten you to the pallet.
9:15 she beats you to the window, but because you can just end your swing early you can already begin your swing before she even reaches the door, you screw up and allow her to escape.
From what I see, you could have played better, objectively, not debatable. They definitely could have been better. But everything I said is the same, he breaks pallets and requires minimal skill..
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2697840#Comment_2697840
The video you sent me got his down because the survivor did not run into a straight line. Get another sample of someone running straight and you are going into cooldown. The moment this Nea started to go around, she lost a lot of distance and it was way closer to the killer giving him only a slight turn on the tree.
"But here you are saying just Brute force it because it is really effective, which would be fine, except he has the ability to instant down on top of this. Imagine if Doctor could instantly break pallets as well as force them to drop them. It would be busted he would need no addons. leatherface has this as well the ability to instant down. Either he needs to have the number of swings severely decreased or the distance that he can gain while swinging is decreased."
Completely disagree and I hate the comparison you made but I will write on it:
Doctor works differently, while he doesn't have such a powerful chase power he has other stuff for himself... he is a RADAR if you know what that means.
Leatherface has absolutely nothing going on for him expect a very top level chase ability, a very lethal chase ability that includes a huge risk that will cause you to lose the entire pressure (tantrum). He has no map mobility, no map awareness built in his base/power, he is a standard 4.6 m/s killer that was buffed in order to get his chasing enhanced, the only possible way to still make its reflection 1:1 to his movie.
By decreasing his swings or the distance you are nerfing his entire chasing potential that already has issues at high MMR where people know how to play. Even at lower MMR, people are there as they are not as good which also imples they cannot perform as well... so that again implies this is not a problem at all (besides the camping issues where I tend to agree). Again, Bubba is all about the chase because otherwise he has nothing... he excels in chasing.
"This is just... disgusting. Only a few killers could have kept up with that survivor, but not only do most of them require actual skill to use, none of them can instantly down."
Sorry but why would you exactly need skill to use when such a survivor is caught in open-space? are you saying that every single kill should be awarded with hard work by the killer even if the survivor has no idea what's happening around him? it doesn't seem correct or fair to me at all.
"Even if lets say she made it to a pallet she would have to have used it to avoid the down, and he still would have just broken it with his chainsaw. If you don't see a problem with that, then I don't know what to tell you."
You really don't know what to tell me because I do believe that'st just fine. The idea is to play very safe against this killer, he does much better in some areas than most others killers and that's not an issue at all, it's actually good by making him unique in his own way. If you do ######### up like the survivor in the clip, I don't know what I should tell to that Nea actually. That was a huge misplay, and you should know that being caught by Leatherface is a death sentence in the open-space, with all you exhaustion perks included.
"I think you are trying to overcomplicate him. Once that window is shut down that loop is gone. Either the survivor makes it to another loop, they throw down the pallet to buy maybe a few more seconds or they go down. There is no need to mind game as he has full control of the chase. On top of the ability to instantly down" - completely false, the T L has 2 windows and can still be played just fine. It only relies on survivor's attention to not ######### up. But let's go on your way and the survivor goes to another loop aka chaining the tiles, after they thrown a pallet, you destroy and have 2 charges left... so the T L wall is still there... why would you not chain it again? you have no way to catch with 2 charges... and also why would you even drop the pallet anyway?
You vault on a window from T L wall, but you do get a little distance before the killer is on your side, since Bamboozle is also very predictable, you have a lot of time to make to a loop in safety without needing to drop a single pallet... and then chain more tiles for saving map resources.
If you can watch that clip, of leatherface, and defend it. There is nothing I could say to change your mind. "She wasn't using optimal movement" Completely ignoring the fact that in the video the distance he covers would cover most tiles. Not even acknowledging how much more distance he would cover with top addons. Your view is you ned to use optimal movement, with an exhausting perk, and you might survive. This is one of the easiest killers to play. So yes, he is broken, he is easy, he is way to strong for how easy to play he is. Your only defence is he can't pressure 4 survivors at once. Which most killers can't anyway. Thanks to attitudes like this leartherface has remained in this awful unbalanced state.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2696633#Comment_2696633
T L was given as an example how you can mindgame with Bamboozle to your argument " because they never learn how to mind game and rely on his busted mechanic.
Mindgaming is also possible at Shack, Jungle Gym and most of the loops that have only 1 wall in the middle (e.g Autohaven).
You are saying that... there's no mindgame when you bruteforce... well sir that's the idea. You want to get rid of what is strong otherwise they will use that stuff against you. You are removing the strong tiles and zone everyone on what is in your favor, also giving you time to pressure the ENTIRE map... for somone has has no map mobility.
"For example those generators that appear in open spaces, you're dead, no question. unless you run extremely early. " - that's the first issue that most survivors do, seeing that a lot of Bubba players are not that good from my observation, people do a lot of risky plays giving the killer free down. As I mentioned earlier, you need to know your surroundings and not take risks against someone who can insta-down you. It's completely your misplay by being located or doing a gen in open-space, or even running into a deadzone (without pallets). You don't blame the killer for this.
The stronger the killer is in a chase, the better the killer is at the end of the day. You should not have any tiles on the map providing you immunity. (Shack won't work you say, so I ask you, why should it work? do you think that's a safe house for you?)
" in that instant the player either drops the pallet which he quickly breaks or the player saves the pallet and nowhere he runs is safe because leatherface will out speed him and only one hit he is down. " that is not true, Leatherface gains the speed in like 3 seconds from first to last charge (1-3).. he is not Billy where he starts with an incredible movement speed and unless you have Beast Mark (which has a rev penalty) and even Purple Chili (to extend your charges)... you are not going to reach the survivor with only 2 charges (as you used 1 for breaking the pallet)... and you wait, then he has even more time to reach a safe zone. The only real solution is to use something like double chili which at the end of the day, gives a huge penalty against pre-droppers since you are not going to reach them (are you going to circle an entire loop? do you think that works? I doubt)
I am confused because you said you use Bamzoole to brute force pallets. This is the issue I have with your position.
You now have the ability to brute-force the strongest loops, get rid of them and for the late game and your tiles in your favor.
What I always recommend with Bubba, get rid of what is strong and mindgame what is weak so you either eliminate the resources or eliminate the survivors by creating pressure, the odds are on your side either way.
By also using Bamboozle on different tiles, same example as Jungle Gym... they will know about that, the mindgame of your chainsaw still goes in action if you can do it and the survivor will be heavily limited and most of them will not run to other tiles being trapped inside the mindgame (again if you don't fail).
But here you are saying just Brute force it because it is really effective, which would be fine, except he has the ability to instant down on top of this. Imagine if Doctor could instantly break pallets as well as force them to drop them. It would be busted he would need no addons. leatherface has this as well the ability to instant down. Either he needs to have the number of swings severely decreased or the distance that he can gain while swinging is decreased.
I'm going to post a twitch video here to show how fast and how far his swing actually goes.
https://clips.twitch.tv/ArtsyExquisiteReindeerM4xHehThis is just... disgusting. Only a few killers could have kept up with that survivor, but not only do most of them require actual skill to use, none of them can instantly down. That would cover most tiles and catches up to an exhaustion perk. As well as being a 115 killer. Even if lets say she made it to a pallet she would have to have used it to avoid the down, and he still would have just broken it with his chainsaw. If you don't see a problem with that, then I don't know what to tell you.
As for this whole point.
One great Tile for such is the T L. Bamboozle one of the windows, use the second wall and "moonsaw" aka double back with your chainsaw, fake your red stain... confuse the survivor into not vaulting the window and reach him right after.
I think you are trying to overcomplicate him. Once that window is shut down that loop is gone. Either the survivor makes it to another loop, they throw down the pallet to buy maybe a few more seconds or they go down. There is no need to mind game as he has full control of the chase. On top of the ability to instantly down
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2696608#Comment_2696608
With all respect, it's not going to be fun at all seeing how you let survivors exploit your weakness. Good that you want to show off how great of a killer you are, but people want to have fun and having an easier time give the killer way more players. The harder and less value you get, the more survivors can beat you, the less fun you will have.
You can mindgame with Bamboozle, it's not only for bruteforcing pallets but it's a key element to waste the strong loops. He has no map mobility.
Here is something I explained to someone on discord, take a look:
----
When you don't use Bamboozle:
You are an 4.6 m/s killer with insta-down having no map mobility, that cannot chainsaw through windows and those are used usually at every single loop to prolong the chase.
Everytime a survivor sees a Bubba, they are not going to drop the pallet right in your face but usually go to the nearest window and let's for the sake of it say it's a jungle gym.
What is going to happen is simple, without Bamboozle you do need to mindgame or you are going to be looped over 3 times until the window is blocked (and a reminder gens are getting done).
Going for a mindgame without the insta-down means 1 health-state if you can even get the hit, the survivor doesn't even have to waste the pallet since the speed boost given and run to another loop. At the end you still have your jungle gym still intact and the survivor still running you.
Going for a mindgame with the insta-down, you have a high risk of failing and bumping into an object, mis-using your charges and going into the cooldown which after may prolong the chase and get the survivor either to run somewhere else for distance or just run you more inside the loop until you force him to drop the pallet. (gens are still getting done in the meantime)
Now how you get him, that's on you but while you have to remember on whatever map you play (if you are lucky to be on a tiny map, or unlucky to be on Red Forest)... your map mobility doesn't exist. If you take more than 2 minutes at some chase without destroying strong pallets or at least getting a down, what I experience at HIGH MMR... you game will end in minutes and you could be waiting on the hook hoping they will come and trade.
Now when you use Bamboozle:
Same stuff still applies, no map mobility, survivors play with that perk in mind.
The catch is, you now have the ability to brute-force the strongest loops, get rid of them and for the late game and your tiles in your favor.
What I always recommend with Bubba, get rid of what is strong and mindgame what is weak so you either eliminate the resources or eliminate the survivors by creating pressure, the odds are on your side either way.
By also using Bamboozle on different tiles, same example as Jungle Gym... they will know about that, the mindgame of your chainsaw still goes in action if you can do it and the survivor will be heavily limited and most of them will not run to other tiles being trapped inside the mindgame (again if you don't fail).
One great Tile for such is the T L. Bamboozle one of the windows, use the second wall and "moonsaw" aka double back with your chainsaw, fake your red stain... confuse the survivor into not vaulting the window and reach him right after.
Everyone says that windows are his greatest counter, while you can mindgame them... you don't have the resources in your power to handle the spread of the generators on the map. Every mindgame, every strong loop takes a little bit of time... that added for each tile will secure generators and you will suffer.
--
*eating pallets won't help you win. Winning is secured by kills*
It depends on the situation and the tile. In your example we're talking about a T-L wall right. Those are definitely strong examples that counter him, to an extent. But that is the same for pretty much every killer, not exactly a leatherface counter. That's not the player that's the tile, and that is mainly RNG. Lets say it's just a simple wall with with a pallet in the middle. There is no mind game only brute force, in that instant the player either drops the pallet which he quickly breaks or the player saves the pallet and nowhere he runs is safe because leatherface will out speed him and only one hit he is down. Of course in a real match of DBD certain situations will cause leatherface to be extremely broken. For example those generators that appear in open spaces, you're dead, no question. unless you run extremely early. But shack won't work, as you said 2 L walls won't work, long walls won't work, the only situation that can counter him are main loops that counter most M1 killers, T-L walls and that's really it. Maybe if you remove bamboozle more loops become viable, but even then you have to remember unlike normal killers a single screw up as a survivor could mean if you go down once, that's it. It is near impossible to save.
As for your point about map pressure, that is a different issue to my actual point about him having no counter play. Yeah you can just gen rush more or less negating all of this, but that is the same for every killer and is a separate issue.
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@MrPeanutbutter said:
I’m sorry, if you claim that Leatherface has “no counter play”, I can’t take your opinion seriously. It is widely known that he is one of the easiest killers in the game to loop, and he really struggles with windows. I play killer as Leatherface quite and bit and survivors who know how to loop usually destroy me
How/? No seriously how, If a survivor is one one side of a pallet and your on the other you can't leave because he will hit you, and you can't stay because he can quickly break the pallet, so every interaction is this weird dance as you both move side to side as he charges his chainsaw to instant break the pallet still giving him the advantage. His movement speed while swinging more the makes up for his slowdown then charging, and the fact he moves 115 makes him viable for M1 chases. The only form of counter play that exists to counter him is window, that's it, and not only is that not a very safe option because some windows are safe, other are not because of the increased speed, but most leatherface players run bamboozle to simply shut down any loop. It's why most leatherface players are so bad, because they never learn how to mind game and rely on his busted mechanic. Of course none of this is even addressing his basement ability or even just his hook defence.
If you have never ran bamboozle on leatehrface, do it, and if you are going to say that you are still struggling, you simply do not understand him well enough.
Experienced leatherface player.
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@Terramortius said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2654470#Comment_2654470
I understand your point but I think I need to be more clear where I am going with all of my ideas. I am more for making the whole game enjoyable to both sides.
Yes, to counter camping, fix gens, but you never know a killer is camping until your progress is massively crippled by camping together with him and waiting for a safe chance to rescue so that's out of the question. You say it's easy but you haven't been in my server and seen how toxic people are. If it's a bubba looking at the hook, would it still be easy? If it's a perma tier 3 myers looking at the hook, would it be easy?
Sometimes when ideas don't work, you need to find out why it didn't work and find out which part works as well. That's the way to fine tune ideas. Of course I know no idea or solution can please everyone so the next best thing is to keep a best fit solution, in the middle ground of 2 arguing parties. For this game, the issue we have is a lack of fun because we cannot do anything when killers camp us and killers have little counter play against people who abuse DS or whatever perk.
That's the whole reason I propose my changes, I hope you can see where I come from.
No I'm glad people a proposing new ideas. DBD has gone in a completely different direction to where the devs wanted it to go, an while it has changed, it hasn't changed enough to compensate for the new direction. Please keep suggesting new ideas, its good for the game I just want offer reasons as to why it would or wouldn't work.
I was a little on unclear when I said "do generators". I meant in a skilful sense its easy. 4 survivors with discord or something can easily get around it. I's not difficult. However I've played solo survivor and have seen first hand what happens when killers camp and how often it is results in multiple kills. Obviously some killers its impossible to get a save if they choose to camp, this needs to be addressed.
Honestly I think the devs need to stop pumping out content that is clearly unfinished let alone untested and instead spend a year developing new game mechanics for both killers and survivors. The current game design is on too delicate of a balance that does not allows for the drastic change it needs.
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Here is the issue you don't address in this post. Camping and tunnelling killers are easy to beat (Do generators) but if the killer decides to just tunnel you out of the match that's it you're dead, and no DS, BT ect will change this. This strategy both screws over the survivor on the hook as they die, and the 3 that survive receive no points. This also happens to be the most effective way to play the match as tunnelling a player out allows for less survivors doing the objective. your post does not fix this at all. Face camping may be the worst of it but tunnelling is not much better, proxy camping may allow for a small window to get a save but it's still unlikely.
I have said this before but the radius timer idea has been proposed years ago, tested and failed due to survivors abusing it. Also how would it work on indoor maps, it wouldn't. (but make it so you have to be on the same level) then this would allow for work arounds and the mechanic could be easily abused. example camping on top of the stairs of basement is not really any different then camping in basement itself.
Solution: I don't have one. Unfortunately most the community has pushed for a more competitive form of DBD and this is the result, meta every match and really unfun playstyles.
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@Faulds said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2652252#Comment_2652252
Corrupt is a good perk that prevents losing 3 gens in 2 minutes (that is OP)... since downing someone can take more than a minute. Corrupt is an example of what every killer perk should be. Tinkerer is also a good example, since you can't just defend all gens that procs tinkerer (even with mobility); but it gives reliable info. I don't want every hex to be reworked into basic perks, but i think that gens slowdown should be more like corrupt/ pop (even though pop has too much restrictions in my opinion).
I guess it depends on your opinion on (OP). For low ranks, casuals or even full sweat killers, yeah it's a little OP. The perk only falls off at the high MMR. I wont pretend to know the extract numbers but if high MMR is say 20% of the player base, 80% are struggling. Personally I think high MMR is even smaller but that is to give a general idea.
If you want most killer perks to be roughly as strong as corrupt, then a lot of survivor perks need to be buffed as well. I have already explained why the current survivor meta exists so re read one of my earlier responses if your not sure. Again the reason why gen speeds are the way they are is because of they increased the timer, camping would become even more optimal then it is now. I won't pretend like I have a solution, but altering gen speeds clearly won't work, and this will allow for 5 minute matches to always continue. None of this was addressed in the original post but the solution has no real answer ATM anyway.
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@Faulds said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2651525#Comment_2651525
Corrupt OP? When survivors can stealth out the 2 minutes? Definitely no. Ruin/ Undying OP? When both of your perks can get done in 2 minutes? I never run ruin (with or without undying) without pop... cause i need consistency. You know the difference between killer and survivors? Survivor best perks are consistent... but killers best perks aren't (most of them are hexes, and the ones that aren't are designed weak "because only hexes should be strong").
Current meta for survivor, Dead hard I agree they should take away the immunity. DS, only activates if tunnelled, stop tunnelling and survivors will get no value. Unbreakable to stop slugging, don't slug no value and borrowed time to stop camping/ tunnelling, don't tunnel and camp. Yeah such consistent value. I know COH is going to be part of the new meta but that an issue with boon totems in general. I explained the current meta only exits to counter killers main playstyle. if killers played fairly and committed to chases none of these perks would get any value.
Corrupt blocks half the gens for the first 2 minutes, that is more then enough time to get your first down and start applying pressure. ruin and undying is RNG based however the fact that people would willingly rely on luck shows just how op they are. Killers would choose to risk 2 perks for one strategy shows just how op it is. Tinker is just broken and if you don't think so you just don't know how to use it.
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@douggie123 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2651525#Comment_2651525
In that one minute you chase the survivors a gen pops or two. And it's alright saying know when to stop chasing but if you did thag all the time you won't be chasing anyone. Get real man.
Did you even read my post? I said the gen speed is an issue of game design. However I explained in my first post why they can't alter gen speeds. Regardless both you and the original post did not address gen speeds you complained about maps. I explained why you are wrong and then you brought up an unrelated issue. If killers want to complain about gen speed for the millionth time, make your own post and all the killers can go there, this post addressed a series of points and I answered every single one.
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@douggie123 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2651372#Comment_2651372
My guy they don't even need to be at pallets I get them constantly just coming up to me and flashlighting me, when I pick survivors up there can be no one there and then all of sudden what do you know a survivor appears from thin air with a flashlight due to sprint burst making them get to me faster. or hopping out a locker or hiding in the reeds or something.
Then the pallets are mostly broken on every map shelter Woods is about the only decent pallet thing for killer due to the least number of pallets. Then Haddonfield let's discuss that fun little map. God loops everywhere. Oh let's talk about another fun set of maps badham preschool the breakable walls are useless most of the time they just open up worse loops and pallets are stupidly placed. The game the map crawling with pallets with a pallet every 2ft along with loops every 3ft. Ironworks of misery goes two ways on occasion killer sided and mostly survivor sided. The groaning store house the map with the most treacherous loop possible with with every window being broken and the breakable wall taking out one of them only. Then we have the workshop map can't remember the name but that's got more loops than anything in a small building. Yeah walls are there but again it opens more loops. Coldwind Farm the map where you lose a survivor in every area.
Let's talk about yamaoka maps where you can't see a thing for the plants and statues etc and broken loops. Especially the shrine map wow let's talk about the loops on the shrine. They are broken and killers have no chance. The swamp maps are exactly the same.
Enough about maps let's talk about some killer perks
Any hex - totem spawns are broken and are found very easily oh and let's not forget that survivors can bless hexes as well (broken). Retribution and haunted ground is the only perk which I dont have a problem with broken spawns for.
Pop goes the weasel: it doesn't feel like it does anything, it needs to be buffed so it takes more progress off or something.
Overcharge : most survivors hit it so thats a wasted perk
Fire up: its a waste of a perk slot and needs to be fully buffed
No way out - it's an OK little perk but needs to be slightly buffed to be a little longer
Remember me - is okish
Bloodwarden - this needs to be buffed because it is crap really and very situational and you actually need to hook a survivor when the gates are opened which leave the risk wide open for them to disappear before it is even able to be used. My suggestion is that it activates as soon as the gate opens and last for a minute and then you can activate it again or extend it for 20/30 seconds if you jook someone.
Sloppy butcher is a wasted perk slot at the minute due to boon circle of healing
Unnerving presence the skill checks are quite regularly hit
Brutal is a good perk but you still need to actually catch the survivor
Agitation is good perk but you need to catch a survivor
Predator - it's ok
Bloodhound - is ok
Shadowborn - this perk is useless sometimes especially as it has the fall back of opening more weakness to flashlights
Enduring - is crap unless matched with brutal etc
Tinkerer is useless especially as by time you get to the gen unless the gen is really close to you.
Stridor is actually useless now
Thanatophobia it doesn't seem to be effective whatsoever so needs to be buffed
Nurses is fairly good
Stbfl - this is a good perk
Pwyf - this is crap and needs buffs
Dying light is about as useful as soggy toilet paper
Overwhelming presence it doesn't seem to be that effective
Monitor is only good on certain killers
Beast of prey needs to be majorly buffed it's useless same with territorial imperative
Knock out is good but relies on you actually downing quickly so you can look elsewhere even then it's nto too bad but survivors moan and say slugging op
BBQ is fairly good needs to be slightly longer lasting
Franklin's is a good perk
Hangmans trick is weak af
Surveillance is not worth the paper it's written unless running with ruin for the 2 minutes ruin stays up and even then you can't get there in time.
Make your choice I feel you need to see the aura of the survivor who saved for a few seconds
Bamboozle needs to be huffed to 33%
Coulrophobia Is actually crap
Spirit fury is alright
Rancor is fairly good
Discordance it's good for information
Mad grit this is a great little perk
Iron maiden again you need the aura
Corrupt needs to last longer
Infectious is alright
Dark devotion is alright and can be fun
I'm all ears is good
Thrilling is good
Furtive chase is trash
Surge when triggers should include the effects of other perks like pop, overcharge etc
Claustrophobia that's a neat little perk
Mind breaker is alright
Zanshin is good for what it is
Blod echo is alright
Nemesis is alright
Gearhead is useless
Dead man's switch is crap
Forced penance is good
Trail is good
Deathbound is useless
Dragons grip is fair
Hoarder is pretty good
Oppression is good only when run with other perks and again needs tk include other perk effects
Coup de grace is good
Starstruck I feel u need to see the auras of survivors in the radius
Lethal pursuer needs to last longer and needs to activate begin and end of game
Hysteria is good
Eruption is good
Deadlock is good
Scourge hook is good but useless with boons activated
The new killers perks all look good but I fear they are gonna be nerfed to oblivion
I'm not going to respond to every perk. Survivor has as many bad perks as killers. boil over, buckle up, sole survivor, de ja vu, So lets just address meta. The current meta for killer is corrupt, which is way to strong for how easy it is to use. tinker, which is broken on high mobile killer, ruin/ undying. The issue is these perks are insane on high mobile killers, spirit, nurse blight, but have nowhere near the same effect on weaker killers. Ruin/Undying is op. Honestly if ruin was a bad perk, you wouldn't use 2 perk slots for it. You are right that it is RNG based, but considering it still used as meta, shows just how op the perk is. People would risk 2 perks just for this one combo. Now lets look at survivor. Dead hard, which I agree they should take away the immune to damage just make it a distance closer. unbreakable to stop slugging, D strike to stop tunnelling, BT to stop camping and now circle of healing to stop the hit and run. The survivor build is 100% designed in a way to counter the killer playstyle, most of which is unfun to go against. Killers have full control over DBD even if they don't want to admit. Every killer runs the same strategy so survivors build there around countering it.
So lets talk about maps.
Badham- I agree needs a rework
Haddonfield- agree
As for coldwind farm, that's on you, you should not be losing track of the survivor, that's your own fault.
That's really it. (Besides RPD) Most maps are fairly balanced, RNG plays a role sure, but besides the shack there really isn't many maps where the survivor can get more then one loop around. Most killers have ways of getting around this. In fact the biggest issues with killers is not their inability to down survivors, but rather the inability to pleasure 4 survivors at once. How long are your chases lasting, because honestly you should be getting a down typically every minute, which would mean maybe one- two loops. As I said there are tones of killers that can break down pallets incredibly fast.. You should watch high MMR killers, they can down survivors typically around 40-50 seconds. The problem that you and the original post don't seem to understand is the issue with DBD at the moment is not that killers are weak. They are not, it is the devs are failing to strike a balance between the killers 1V1 and 4V1. Pinhead, good 4V1, bad 1V1, trickster, good 1V1, bad 4V1. nemesis good 1V1, bad 4V1. The only killers that are considered viable by killers, spirit, nurse blight have both strong 1V1 and 4V1. Look at the new killer the artist. Her power is uncountable. used properly there is no way for any survivor to counter it. She is till losing cause she has no 4V1 abilities. If the survivor is looping your for minutes that is 100% on you, if not and they are only looping you for a minute but 3 gens are still going then maps aren't the issue, it's game design.
As for your point on flashlights, I provided 3 solutions to counter it, but honestly you should not be getting flashlight blinded, it really is not hard to counter them. I can assure you they are not coming from thin air, they are somewhere near you, if you fail to find them, then that's not the game, that's you.
From your post I get the impression that you watch high MMR killer videos and assume that the game is so anti-killer but it really isn't. As I said in my earlier post, Meta killers, with meta perks are near unbeatable unless in a team. The problem is not that killers are failing to win but rather what is needed to win is simply requiring them to run the same build with the same killer every match. Survivor is no different, as I explained why the current survivor meta exists. I see no difference between you and the original post, and everything I said to him applies to you. You should play more killer, reach the point that you down a survivor in 40 seconds, then 3 gens go. then I think you might come to a different understanding as to why killers are struggling.
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Ok, lets actually break down your post.
1.3/4 flashlights. Ok, what killer are you running? Most high end killers negate flashlights at pallets, bubba, hillbily, blight, nruse, spirit. Other killers that more or less negate the flashlight blind, plague, dr, Demogorgon, and nemesis. All these killers can break the pallets to fast or the blind to go off. (Dr with his shock blast.) Even if you can't deal with it, if they are injured just listen out for the grunts of pains, even if they are not injured or have iron will, you can still track them with footsteps. If you are talking about flashlight saves then you need to learn to bait saves, fake pick ups, slug (ect.) Perks that will do this for you, lightborn, franklin's demise, infectious fright. Most killers won't need these, but practice with them first then try to play without them.
2, Bodyblocking survivors, Ok, and? The only reason bodyblocking should ever be an issue is if you are tunnelling. Try not to tunnel. If it is end game and you need to, I don't know what you expect survivors to do, stand there and let you get kills? They are doing the right thing. If you're talking about them body blocking during a normal chase, just hit them. It's a free hit.
3, two keys. This is actually what convinced me to post. 2 keys? You do realise only one survivor can use a key. If they have 2 then either you're going to kill both of them or one of them. Keys are so underpowered now if you seriously have a problem with keys, you don't stand a chance at moderate ranks, let alone high rank. The issue isn't keys, rather hatch. Because hatch is a 50/50 chance that is spawns closer to the survivor or killer. There is nothing wrong with keys, as a killer I am more scared of one med kit, then 4 keys.
4, Adrenaline/ dead hard. The way I see Adrenaline, its the survivor version of Noed. No real skill and really cheap perk, no reasonable way to counter it. It's honestly unfair, but so is NOED. I discourage both perks, but honestly I don't blame you getting frustrated with it. Dead hard is easily the best survivor perk in the game and needs a nerf. In fact a lot of survivor/ killer perks need to be nerfed, they are just way to strong compared to other perks. The only thing I can say is if you are encountering strong perks constantly you need to run strong perks in response, regardless of whether you are survivor or killer, both sides are playing this game competitively so you need to adapt if you want to play.
5,Easily abused loops. Objectively wrong. Some maps are survivor sided, however some heavily killer sided. Almost every pallet in midwitch is an unsafe pallet for survivors, barring a couple that need to broken. Shelter woods can spawn as little as 7 pallets. Most good loops have breakable walls, meaning they should only get one loop. Most chases should really only last a minute, if it is lasting longer, then that's on you, this isn't even counting killers that just break chases (Spirit, nurse, Blight.
6,Killers have like 1% chance of succeeding with survivors having the other 99%. Not even close. Most killers get 2 kills the majority of matches and actually win more matches then they lose at low MMR. The only real issue is high MMR and it's not that killers aren't winning, because they are. It's that they need to run high end killers, with top perks every match.
7,camping subsides it a bit but we should not need to camp or tunnel to succeed. If the game tilted in favour of killers you would see more camping, not less. Killers camp, not because it is needed, rather because it is the best way to win. Before changing anything gameplay related they need force killers to change how they play by punishing camping, not the other way around.
8,The devs are actively promoting camping and tunnelling. Yes, they always promoted this playstyle. This is nothing new, again killers mainly camp by choice, not when needed. Killers have defended camping long before SBMM. Killers camp by choice. Supported by the devs, in their own interview, where they openly supported things such as insidious bubba.
IN short most of your points show less of an issue of killers but rather yourself and your clear lack of experience in the game.
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@Taingaran said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2644880#Comment_2644880
Perhaps more accurate is that not all aspects of the game are supposed to be fun. For example, how can you have fun on a hook or fun to get hit on the head with a pallet or get blinded by a flashlight ?!
And you cannot make a fun game for both sides, when the goal of one is to catch up, hang, kill, and the other does not allow to be caught and escape. Those. absolutely opposite goals and tools. Each side has its own some sad situations, they should be, and that's okay.
P.S. And don't use the word toxic. Find another one. And so many people use it instead of finding a word that more accurately describes something.
Yes...you can have fun, and you should be having fun, being hooked, getting pallet stunned. This right here shows your mindset. Your view of fun, is winning. That's it. You don't care about fair match, or how your victory occurs. All you care about is whether you win or not. Some players like myself, want to win, while still encouraging a fun playstyle for both sides. Guess what I can deal with gen rushing, its easy, you just face camp. However I hate the playstyle, its not fun so I don't do it. Getting hooked is fun because I can recognise when either I screw up, or the killer genuinely out plays me. This is why there are killers that people hate who don't allow for outplay.
"you cannot make a fun game for both sides." That is just. so toxic. You can make the game fun for both sides, its easy. Stop running meta builds every match, play with a little variety, and don't play in a way that robs of a match of the main thing that both sides want (a chase). I promise you if a player is given a fair chance and still loses, they will say gg. If they don't, then they are just as toxic as you are. DBD is not the only game where two teams have opposite goals, however it is the only game that I have ever heard anyone say "You cannot make a game fun for both sides."
You don't like the word toxic, because It describes you so arcuately? Ok, how about miserable. It sounds like any match you participate in would be miserable.
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@Taingaran said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2644694#Comment_2644694
If the killer is playing off the ground, and the team has no time to lift the recumbent survivors, then the problem is definitely in the survivors. And this is definitely not a reason to strengthen the perk.
Also keep in mind that this is a Second Chance Perk !! This alone makes you think about whether he needs amplification.
It is incorrect to compare the hook timer and bleed timer. On the hook, the survivor can only hope for the team. And on the ground, he can crawl, hide from the killer, or crawl to his team.
In the game, situations are normal that bring, should bring discomfort, cause a feeling of helplessness. And being on the ground is this situation. Not everything should be fun and enjoyable.
The hook example, was only there to show how long 2 minutes actually is in a match of DBD.... the bleed out timer doubles it. I don't want the hook timer to be changed.
I'm just... going to post leave this here
"In the game, situations are normal that bring, should bring discomfort, cause a feeling of helplessness. And being on the ground is this situation. Not everything should be fun and enjoyable."
By our own words, DBD should not be fun, it should be a miserable experience. Slugging does not bring helplessness, it brings boredom as I tab out to wait for the bleed out timer.
That is such an awful toxic mindset. Fun should allays be prioritized and the game should encourage as much fun for both sides.
I attempted to provide an idea that allows for strategy for the killer while still allowing for players to participate in a match. An attempt at least to match balance with fun. You clearly have a different goal for the game meaning you would never agree to my idea unless it tilts heavily on the side of killer.
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@Taingaran said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2643794#Comment_2643794
Until killers are given another opportunity to put pressure on survivors, slugging will be relevant. And it depends on the actions of the developers.
I also disagree with the fact that when a survivor lies on the ground he is being held hostage. The near-death state is one of the conditions of the survivor. Moreover, he can not be in this state for a long time, only 4 minutes.
I also don't like the fact that the survivors force the killer how to play. The killer already has few styles: hooks, slugging, tunneling, camping and facecamping. And you propose to deprive him of one of the styles, one of the choices.
And the suggested recovery time is too short. It must be at least 90 seconds long.
The 60 second timer was a generalisation. If the idea was ever put into affect I would support it being tested at 120, 90, 60, or 30 just to see how it affects matches and pick the most balanced. Remember I would make a condition that you cannot start recovering until the timer goes away, so even if it was 60, it would be 60 + the recovery= 70 seconds. Your teammates can still heal you though. However somewhere between 60-90 I think would be balanced.
I said I recognise that slugging needs to exist, however there is a difference between slugging because you find 2 survivors , down one and then chase the 2nd. That I think is fine. What I hate, is nurse with infectious fright flying around the map downing everyone then getting 1 hooked. I don't even consider that a match. My idea would still allow the first scenario as an entire minute before recovering is a reasonable time to down the 2nd survivor. (lets say it got extended to 80). However the 2nd scenario would be prevented.
4 minutes is not a long time? ok, an average match of DBD is 10 minutes. 4 minutes is almost half a match. How long is the survivor hook timer? The hook timer is 2 minutes so half of that. So if 4 minutes is not a long time, and the hook timer is half of that, then surely you would agree the hook timer needs to be extended to at least 4 minutes, since it isn't much time at all? In all seriousness if you don't think 4 minutes is a long time to just sit there slowly losing , I don't know what to say other then you are objectively wrong.
Survivors don't force the killer to do anything. The killer can play however they want, its just that slugging, tunnelling and camping is the most effective. As I said slugging is still an option, if you don't think 60 is long enough, cause I think it's more then enough if you're not downing a survivor within a minute then you deserve to get gen rushed, but lets say 80 seconds. 80 + recover= 90. Now would you agree. If you can't down a survivor within a minute and a half, you need to practice more as killer really.
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@Taingaran said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2642880#Comment_2642880
Even now, the Unbreakable with 1 use is able to turn the game. And you suggest using 2 or even 3 times)
And death by bleeding is one of the possibilities of a murderer. And in my opinion no changes are required here.
That is why I gave it the 60 second timer. You can still slug, it still an option, however you can't leave survivors on the ground for 2-3 minutes, as they slowly bleed out. We should be discouraging that sort of playstyle. If a survivor spends more then a minute you are effectively holding them hostage. They can't die, they can't play the game, its not really any different then trapping them in a corner. In my first post, I recognise the necessity of slugging, it sometimes has to happen, however it should not be encouraged, and certainly should not be a playstyle.
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@Taingaran said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2642630#Comment_2642630
Stopping the bleeding timer is unnecessary.
Yes it is. If the perk has a 60 second cooldown and the recovery is 12 seconds I think, you're bleed out timer is only 3 minutes. You would only get 2 uses. Even if my numbers are wrong, you may get 3 uses, may as well just buff it so it can activate 3 times. Also I want to discourage killers from bleeding out survivors.
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I would agree to make it infinite use. However make it so that the perk can be used once, afterwards is a 60 second cooldown, that has to go before you can begin recovering next time you go down. While the perk is disabled, your bleed out timer is paused, and only starts once the perk reenables. the 60 timer only decreases while you are in the dying state. This will still provide killers the option of slugging, but prevent them for leaving survivors. on the ground for 2-3 minutes.
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@GoshJosh said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2639582#Comment_2639582
I did read it... that's the first thing I said, that I needed time to read it before responding.
I just don't recall any of these alleged attempts you say BHVR has made. The last real change was increasing each hook state timer to 60 seconds from 45 seconds. That was patch 1.5.3 per the wiki. We're now in 5.3.2. Sickening.
Are you for real? Are you a real person?
One my original post: failed
two the BT: failed
Three the DS: failed
four the emblem system: failed
Each attempt the community found a way to work around or exploit it. My point was that there have been attempts to discourage camping and tunnelling throughout DBD's history and it has failed every time. I have said all 4 of those things to you and your response is " I don't recall any of these alleged attempts".
If you seriously played this game since 2016 and you cannot recall any attempts by the devs, just... stop. Just say you started playing since 2018, at least I could understand where you are coming from.
Lastly you responded by saying "I need time to respond." There is no rush. Take all the time you need. You need a week to think of response, take a week, I don't need an update.
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@GoshJosh said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2638500#Comment_2638500
I needed to take time to read your comment in full. No, I am not a new player (been playing since 2016), and yes I understand that both sides can be toxic. I'm not here to really discuss points and emblems, but the main topic: facecamping.
If you haven't read it, whey even post? Also my point from each post has been, Behaviour has attempted to address camping, tunnelling, abusing mechanics multiple times and either the killer worked around it or survivors have worked around it or abused it.
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@Munqaxus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2636452#Comment_2636452
This method sort of worked actually.
Stopping hook progress can work effectively to prevent camping if it only pauses hook progress while the killer is in close proximity and not in a chase. If they added the "not in a chase", while also within so many meters of the hooked survivor, hook progress is paused.
I think adding sprint burst, no blood and no scratch marks to unhooked survivors would help a lot to prevent proxy-tunneling.
The not in the chase requirement may make it better, however It is not difficult to break a chase, the radius of the triggering the timer slow down would have to be pretty big to avoid proxy camping, (16-20) meters and simply running in a straight line after being hit usually breaks chase. Either way I already stated that this idea fails on indoor maps, even you made it so killers have to be on the same level, there are ways of working around this, and it is unlikely to prevent tunnelling.
Lets say you made it 16 meters. Killers will just sit outside the range. the issue is less face camping and more, killer leaves hook, survivor gets unhooked, killer immediately comes back, finds injured survivor due to groans of pain and blood, killer then tunnels them.
Again there are situations where I recognise camping, tunnelling as a legitimate strategy. There is a difference camping at 4 gens and camping at 1 gen.
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@GoshJosh said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2637449#Comment_2637449
Your first mention proves my point exactly. It was killers being able to bypass BT, one of the few anti-tunnel (not anti-camping) perks survivors have. And they still can, just by waiting out 12 or more seconds. It wasn’t changed to a radius activation range, but always triggering upon any unhook. The original BT was anti-camp and anti-tunnel, since it protected both the unhooker and the unhooked. But only worked once per match based on being in terror radius, which was very problematic for several reasons.
Old DS wasn’t abusable to me, as killers had the choice to slug a recently unhooked survivor. And either way you look at it, it still isn’t very anti-tunnel at all, so needs some better features and conditions if it’s going to remain a one-time use perk.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2637652#Comment_2637652
Ah yes, let me dedicate half my build every dang trial in case the killer decides to camp. And even with BT, the best outcome may be a hook trade; at worst, we both end up hooked or downed. And if it’s me being camped, hang there for 850 BP while my teammates get to earn minimal points and get out themselves. Real good advice, much thanks!
No... my point was that both sides abused mechanics. Current BT is great, 12 seconds of invincibility is pretty good, I actually thought BT worked by the distance of the killer, so guarantee activation is fantastic. I really dislike current DS, I actually made a comment a while ago about why it needs a buff, however if you don't think doing the objective right in front of the killer, knowing you were untouchable was abusive I don't know what to say to you.
Also your bit about the need to run half your build to counter camping, that's the same for both sides. If 4 survivors simply choose to do the gens in 4 minutes, killers have dedicate their entire build to stop it. I have never and will never support camping, tunnelling, or slugging, however I recognise that at times these things are unavoidable. Unless you are ok with deliberately throwing the game.
Also brief mention, I'm assuming you are a new player, joined in the last 2-3 years. Originally survivors and killers ranked up by points, not emblems. The best way to rank up as survivor was through escaping the best way as killer was through killing. This resulted in survivors gen rushing to ensure their escape, and killers face camping as it was the optimal way to rank up. Behaviour implemented the emblem system to encourage players to do othering things in the match, so you needed to do the objective, get saves, chases ect, and the same for killer. What survivors started to do was prolong the match after they reached a point when they felt secure to get as many points as possible. Because gens use to always go in about 4 minutes, and there use to be way more loops, pallets, for survivors, they could continue the match for another 3-5 minutes simply taunting until they felt like they had enough and thus would easily escape through the exit gate. Which created a need for the end game collapse, to force survivors out of the gate. So yes, survivors are just as toxic and abusive as killers.