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Icaurs
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@Eredestra said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2636452#Comment_2636452
In that case, just reduce the amount of bloodpoints the Killer get's for staying in a close proximity to the hook.
No need to block anything or give anyone immunity, just deduct points.
But you're still punishing killers for something that survivors do. That's really bad game design, even if it was only one point deduction, imagine if killers received extra points for repeatedly hooking the same survivor. Also this idea simply falls apart on maps with multipole floors, I know you could make it so camping only registers if you are on the same level, but imagine how many ways you could get around that, the holes in the jigsaw map, possibly even the hills on the corn, azarovs, ect.
Either way there situations where I can understand camping as a strategy. If there is only one gen left and you only have 4 or less hooks, it would make sense. One possible Idea could see is making it that hook points count more with when there are less gens, but even then I could see killers simply waiting for the first 2 gens to go before starting a match.
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@GoshJosh said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2636452#Comment_2636452
Give me one historical example of anti-camping/tunneling mechanics being tested, besides this test you mention in 2016.
Ok first one to mind was the rework BT, killers would use the undetectable status to bypass it and still camp, so they had to change it so that it has a set radius.
Second was the reworked Decisive strike. Survivors abused the perk doing gens instantly after being unhooked because they knew the killer could not touch them.
If you want examples of direct in game mechanics, behaviour have openly come out in support of camping an tunnelling, so they never had much of reason to nerf it, the example I gave was back when behaviour prioritized "Fun" over balance.
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So behaviour actually did something similar to what you proposed back in 2016 I think, this was back before the swivel hook and killers would block the unhook interaction. Survivors started looping the killer near the hooked survivors, essentially abusing the mechanic. Most ideas regarding tunnelling and camping have been tested at one point or another and either the killers or survivors abuse it.
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@Voodoo101 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2626752#Comment_2626752
Well said.
The problem is that there are too many killers that cannot play the game. They pick killer thinking that is the best roll, load up with all the best perks to slow down gens and things, then think it's a way of getting easy kills. Then they meet players who play survivor all the time and have probably played against better killers who can loop, and survive.
Then the excuses come out because they spent so much time chasing one survivor that the team must have gen rushed, or it's perks because a survivor managed to lose them.
Lets take a look at just a couple of perks that are really OP against a survivor - "No One Escapes", the ability to one shot a survivor when they finally manage to do all five gens, this alone can be a game changer. Any killer that can't at least get one kill just with this perk is either against a very good team or is having a really bad day. "No Way Out", the ability to stop survivors opening gates for a time, add that with NoEd and it even gives you more time for those one shot kills. Then there is "Blood Warden", The ability to stop survivors even more by blocking the exit even when the gates are open. I have know killers use two of these and get a 4K letting all five gens to be done.
Maybe if killers stop crying about how one sided the game is for killers, stopped looking for excuses and actually learned how to loop, how to play mind games, they would start winning without these tactics.
If I can play a low level Pig in RPD, not tunnel, not camp, even allow them to keep picking each other up when they are slugged, and get a 4K, then it's not survivor sided.
It's not about which side has its easiest, the issue I see is killers will play the optimal way to play every match. Currently camping and tunnelling is the best way to secure kills. So even if generator times were doubled to fix gen rushing, killers will actually camp more, not less. They need to either completely change the design of dbd, which of course risks breaking the formula that most of the community wants or put in harsh punishments for playing in such a way that robs all players of an actual match.
Lets be honest though, DBD will never change as everyone says "I will only stop doing "x" once "Y" is fixed. Nobody wants to be the change and are actively punished or harassed for daring to want the game to improve.
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@Rey_512 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2631258#Comment_2631258
You have it completely wrong, man. Even a mediocre survivor can run a killer for minutes if they run from strong loop to strong loop and drop pallets safely. By the time you get your first down, 2-3 gens can easily pop. THAT is what killers have to deal with today at mid to high ranks. It’s a problem when mid tier survivors can waste loads of tile because maps are so poorly designed.
How... How are you getting looped for "minutes." The whole problem with "genrushing" is killers down survivors in about a minute and 2 gens pop, making it impossible for killers to win. If you are legitimately getting looped for 2 minutes and only 2 gens pop (even only 3), then the survivors were actually really slow on gens, you are objectively bad. You clearly do not want to improve as a killer. If you really need help try running enduring, brutal strength to help you practice with pallets.
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lets say ranked for SWF, casual for solo survivors. The reason for this is that teams are competitive by their very design and swf will be able to trash killers way to easily. and then ban meta perks for survivors and killers in casual. Watch as killers say that both modes are unfair. SWF is not the issue, it's killer's reliant on bad players to win. I love when killers complain about swf, when they get looped for 2 minutes straight, that's not swf, that's just a good player. Killer's don't hate SWF, they hate versing good players.
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@BeanLag said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2629779#Comment_2629779
Man im literally saying i dont find this fix the right one due to the fact it will affect mostly the solo players while the real problem, the swf would not be that affected. Since SBMM i play a lot of survivor and i play it only soloq. Yes the boon totems are VERY strong even being solo if you know what you are doing but it biggest problem is when used as a team so i would nerf it in that direction
And I'm literally saying... no.
You're exact quote is
"SWF needs some type of nerf. All the balance issues the game has comes from swf"
Most of the time killer's go "Sweaty 4 man swf" what they really mean is good players. 4 individual good players. Which has nothing to do with SWF. Killer's are reliant on bad players to win, meaning they don't want to improve they want too bully new players (why smurfing is an issue).
If my option is play solo survivor and get trashed by sweaty killers and incompetent teammates because killers are allowed to do whatever they want with no consequences. But if I dare have the audacity to play with friends I'm going to be punished thereby being trashed by sweaty killers, then I choose option 3, play a different game. Instead of nerfing SWF we buff solo survivor , increased movement speed, gen speed, borrowed time, kindred and decisive as base kit. After all, balancing issues stem from solo survivor.
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Because there are not enough players for 2 game modes. Also survivors can still do generators without needing meta perks, however killers need meta slow down to win. Killers will only play the competitive mode.
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@BeanLag said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2629118#Comment_2629118
SWF needs some type of nerf. All the balance issues the game has comes from swf
Gen speed
Perks
Map offerings
Boons
Items
All this things are a problem due to SWF
No. Just.... no. The problem isn't SWF, it's competency. I recommend you play solo survivor, run bond with open handed and just watch your team. they just stand there... like statues. Only moving when somebody is hooked, and then they book it across the map for a save. After getting hit, they run to the across the map to the corner and start self caring. No amount of information I could have would make it playable. I apologise if killers feel frustrated when they verse people actually playing the game, but I shouldn't be punished because I don't want to have to run the killer for 2 minutes each chase just to stand a chance.
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Ahh yes, remove even more ways for survivors to exit a toxic match. Seriously, this is why the DC penalty is such bad thing (ignoring the constant crashing), If we are at 5 gens and the killer is slugging everyone I would rather just DC and move onto another match (I'm not going to get any points anyway). Sometimes just being able to leave a match is a good thing. If you removed the attempt, and the skill checks on the 2nd stage, people will simply afk. If you don't want people to abandon a match, I hate to tell you this but people will, no matter always want too.
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Every time a Killer hits or downs a Survivor all generators get blocked for 5 seconds.
I like it, however I would only support if it it activates when hitting a survivor different too the one last hit.
- If 2 or more Survivors are repairing generators while a teammate is hooked further than 40m away, and the Killer is further than 24m away from the hook, Entity progression is increased by 33%.
No, killers will simply proxy camp and this won't address the issue of tunnelling at all, also this simply fails on indoor maps. How about instead increasing the gen speed for each survivor not hooked by the entity, however this only activates after the first survivor is hooked. However every time a new survivor is hooked all gen speeds are decreased for a set time, as a starting point.
- When a Killer damages a generator the generator explodes for an initial 2% regression. Generators regress at a rate of 50%.
I support increasing the base speed increase, however they need to drastically nerf the existing gen slow down perks to compensate, ruin, corupt, (ect)
- Repair speed perks and items no longer function as they currently do.
- Toolboxes now unlock the Sabotage action as well as increase the speed of Cleansing.
- Toolbox and Worn-Out Tools are removed. Mechanics and Engineers Toolbox rarity becomes Uncommon and Common from Rare and Very Rars.
I agree items should be removed or heavily nerfed, same with killer addons, even minor addons on killer make them way too strong.
- Basement is removed.
Agreed, outdated mechanic, only there to encourage camping.
- Recovery speed from Dying is increased by 75% when 5 generators remain while 4 survivors are alive in the trial. Recovery speed is increased by 50% when 4 generators remain while 4 survivors are alive in the trial. Recovery speed is decreased by 25% when 2 generators remain while 4 survivors are alive in the trial. Recovery speed is decreased by 50% when 1 generator remains while 4 survivors are alive in the trial.
No, I don't support slugging, it is a boring playstyle, I understand that in can sometimes be necessary but it should not be encouraged.
- Successful attacks while a Power is active does not trigger perk related status effects.
Little unsure what you want with this?
- Exit Gate open progress regresses at a rate of 100% when no longer being opened.
Fully support, 99% exit gate is just stupid.
- Exit Gates are blocked for 10 seconds if a Killer opens it.
Don't think it will do much but yeah I don't see any issue with that.
Overall some neat ideas. However you have to be careful when altering gen speeds, because the time to down with say nurse is significantly shorter then the time to down deathslinger.
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Just give up man. I've tired making the same post before. Every killer says the same thing "But gen rushing." Killer's don't care about fun, they want to win. They say but getting gen rushed is not fun, but lets be real, killers will still tunnel, even if the game is in their favour. I genuinely do not know how a person can enjoy going back to the same hook every 3 seconds or going after the player that has no way of escaping, but they don't want fun, they want survivors to feel frustrated. They have said this, they don't care if survivors are having fun, well great then lets all have a miserable time together, and then they act surprised when survivors teabag at the exit gate. Remember killers set the meta, survivors then respond, with the new killer having insane anti loop powers (honestly broken) killers are going to say "but she's weak in map pressure therefore not op." Survivors will then respond with the new exhaustion perk overcome and killers will then complain that survivors are just running in a straight line with no way to counter it. As long as you play DBD you just have to learn to run DS/ BT on all of your builds.
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People like to blame the game for forcing them to tunnel, but lets be real you would do it anyway. It's not the game it's you, you want to win at any cost and don't care about having fun. If you did you wouldn't play killer. I'm so tired of killers saying "I have to run this" or "do that". No you don't. Even if you fee like you do you, I'm guessing you run the same meta perks for killer, before the match started, you clearly don't care about anyone else's fun except your own. Before you say "well survivors don't." Yeah But you are just as bad, in fact you are worse because you want the game to change but won't make an active effort yourself. Genuinely toxic mindset.
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It's a neat idea, however the fact hat you need to use an ultra rare item, for a one time use item, that is is not 100% guaranteed, that can be negated with a perk, just seems a bit much. Maybe instead make it so the item can be accessed with any key however the likelihood of shard of glass is is affected by which key you use. Broken key 10%, dull key 40%, skeleton key, 70% however you can still get normal items from the chest but with base addons, equal to the rarity of the key. Purple key, purple addons, pink key pink addons. Apart form that I support the change as current keys are just useless as an item.
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The problem is circle healing can't be changed too much, or else it risks being obsolete to self care. The increased healing of teammates as its only use would make the perk incredibly weak. I believe the healing speed for teammates should be left the way it is, however the self healing speed should be capped at 50% normal speed. No perks or items should effect this speed for survivor or killer. This would mean you can still self heal but would be far more time consuming. Either that or circle healing should not exist at all, in all honesty I was kind of disappointed that one of the 2 brand new boon perks was just another healing perk.
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I misunderstood, I apologise. So you really hold the mindset that anything goes? Then all I can say is I hope that I never encounter you as killer or survivor.... ever. It genuinely sounds like an awful time. I have heard people say they want a symbol to know if they are versing SWF? Well I would rather a symbol for people who hold that mindset, so I know to dodge. Because playing with or against you does not sound like a good time.
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@Jaxton2000 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2621183#Comment_2621183
I just have to stop you there on saying gen rushing, taunting at the gate and leaving teammates whatever etc is toxic.
People choosing how to play the game is how they choose to play the game. Is any of it "toxic"? No, I would say they're annoying at most. If you find them irritating then you find them irritating.
Gen rushing being "toxic" is probably the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Sorry people are trying to escape... the main objective of the game? Rushing to escape? No way! Your toxic!!!
Toxicity is the after game chat when people throw temper tantrums...
No yeah you're right. leatherface faceamping, yeah its the player fault if they get angry, killer can't possibly win without resorting to camping, well I guess he just should get good or something. 4 gens in 3 minutes? Guess the killer should say GG, because they are just bad or something. "it's people's playstyle." Yeah the playstyle is called a toxic playstyle. (It's their objective). Wow that sounds like a fun game (sarcasm is obvious).
Also you say leaving teammates is toxic but objectively it's a good strategy (leave one player, 3 escape.) If my goal is to escape, then abandoning teammates is the best option. Tea bagging at exit gates? you mean getting more points. The goal of DBD is to get points. Why do you have an issue with teabagging. (because it is annoying), Too bad I want points. During the match drawing the killer's attention is a legitimate strategy and my playstyle. If you get annoyed, then that's on you right?
Lets play the word game, if I substitute the word (toxic) with not fun would you agree with my post. Or are you saying 5 minute matches where nobody gets more then 15,000 points was a fun game. Or do you play DBD competitively, because if so that is not the point of my post at all.
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@BIeepBIoop said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2615652#Comment_2615652
If ds was weak it wouldn't be meta, it's like the people saying dead hard was weak because sometimes it left you exhausted on the ground, just because people said that they still used it. Wanna know why because it was a powerful perk when it worked.
You may say that ds is just used a lot because of tunneling, but the other reason it's used is that it's such a powerful if not the most powerful perk not only are you able to waste time if the killer needs to get someone out asap, but it also works as like a snowballing denial. It does not need a buff, it's like buffing an already overused perk.
I think DS is meta, not out of strength but of of necessity. Not running it means you risk of being simply being hooked once then, that's it game over. Even if your team does the right thing and simply rushes the gens so they can escape, you being forced to just sit there and sacrifice yourself, is not fun.
As for dead hard, nobody said dead hard was weak, before the patch. If you saw people saying that, then they are just objectively wrong, dead hard is the strongest survivor perk, even before the patch. However the fact that the perk would sometimes just not work, is kind of... really bad. Yeah people still ran it, but when it worked, yeah you won, and if it failed, it wasn't due to being outkilled, it was due to bugs. Just saying I have supported removing the invulnerability of dead hard, so it can only be used to as a distance closer, instead of being able to just phase through attacks.
Also just because a perk is overused does not mean it needs it can't be buffed or nerfed. One of the most used survivor perks (3rd most used I think) was Borrowed time. they then buffed it so it activated at a set distance instead of in the terror radius to stop killers who can turn off their heartbeat from just ignoring the perk. Which is good.
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@Dino7281 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2618837#Comment_2618837
We just have different opinions on what toxic means.
You think that killers trying to win is toxic. What is interesting you mention only killers to be toxic... Both sides can do it, but you think it is toxic just because you don't like to do it.
I don't think that is toxic in every case. It's kinda dumb say camping / slugging / tunneling is toxic overall. There are situations where it is best thing that killer can do.
It's different if that killer is doing it just to torture survivors, but that is quite rare in my games and my squad know how to deal with it. There are lot of perks how to deal with camping / slugging / tunneling and there is playstyle how to play against it.
Of course it's way harder to deal with it as soloQ, but that is just issue of soloQ that needs to be buffed.
The only reason I exclusively mention killers, is because this is a post about DS and camping/ tunnelling, which is a problem caused by killers. I have said gen rushing is toxic, taunting at the exit gate is toxic, leaving teammates to die in order to prioritize finishing gens is toxic. So no, I am not a saying survivors do no wrong, I have and will always call it out, just not on this post , as it is unrelated. As I said lets say toxic is not the right word, miserable, is a better word. Those things make the game miserable. I would rather just die then be slugged on the ground for 3 minutes. I would rather just die then be tunnelled out of a match.
My question to you is this. Do you find tunnelling, camping, and slugging fun? Not as a survivor, but as a killer. Now I agree there a certain situations where those things are acceptable. , such as once the exit gates are powered, I believe anything goes, but in general no. So when you camp (ect), are you actually enjoying yourself? Do you honestly say "great game tones of fun." Because I'll say it, as a survivor the first time 3 generators go in 80 seconds its funny and exciting and I laughed. But on the 10th match, the 20th, the 50th and so on, you realise it isn't. Sure all survivors on different gens may be the best way to play, but it is not a fun way, for killers or survivors. The same however goes for killers, sure camping and tunnelling may optimally be the best way, but seriously it is not fun. For the survivor or the killer. Do you agree with that? If so maybe you need to stop viewing this game as a competitive game, I don't and I have more fun just practicing with my power and not caring whether I win or lose then camping /tunnelling, now you cay if I don't care if I win, why do I hate tunnelling so much? Because it robs the survivor of the the thing you actually play for (the chase). I play survivor for the enjoyment of being chased. If you don't enjoy camping (ect) and only do it out of necessity, maybe you just shouldn't play killer. Seriously if you don't find camping (ect) fun (because I Don't) why are you even playing killer? What is your idea of an enjoyable match.
Lastly I never said tunnelling and camping is some unbeatable strategy. I may not play with some (elite squad) I just play with a few friends trying to have a fun time. All we do is just rush generators and if needed, trade places with Borrowed time. 3 survivors escape, easy. It's not hard, but it's not fun,.
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@ThiccBudhha said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2619136#Comment_2619136
You dislike meta, and then defend a Wraith nerf. I think that is a bigger issue than anything you wrote. You literally just ignore the contradiction to justify your cherry picked attitude.
@StarLost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2619136#Comment_2619136
To the first part, I agree.
However, it can't be inconsistent. Either both sides need to play 'nice', or neither should be expected to.
To the second part, that's sort of inevitable. The game being refined and balanced is a good thing.
CI isn't the problem. The problem is the way the meta works right now. It's entirely possible for a team of survivors to pop a gen less than 20 seconds after a game starts (14 seconds if I recall), and 2 within a minute. That means that the game could be potentially almost over before the killer gets their first real chase, especially on maps with multiple 'freebie' gens like Haddonfield or RPD.
Now, of course slamming out 5 gens and stealthing around/abusing busted loops/CoH so you get a 4-out before the game has even really gotten going means less BP for all involved, but so long as the survivor 'win state' is escaping, that'll be the meta. The killer has to pressure early (which means that you need to run CI or LP), run a cascading/snowball pressure build like Plaything+Retribution+Pop+Discordance, take your chances with something like DH or Starstruck builds or play a dirty 'consolidation' build like NOED+NWO. 'Slowdown' builds aren't really viable anymore, thanks to the Undying nerf+CoH.
To fix that problem, the survivor meta is going to have to shift first.
Third point - I hate easy wins almost as much as I hate terrible losses. This is another problem with the meta - as by the time I know that it's going to be an easy game and I should ease up, I've probably already killed two survivors and they have 4 gens remaining. Because if I didn't go in sweaty, I could easily be on the receiving end of a total stomp.
I disagree completely regarding Wraith. He played as a partial anti-loop/partial mobility killer, which was a good niche for him. He wasn't even close to OP, and I can't think of a single tier list that didn't slot him as middle tier at best. My point though was that it demonstrated an inconsistency with BHVR's stated design decisions.
Lastly, I'm not sure if that's a good design goal. The ideal would be killers to be easy to learn and hard to master. Wraith was actually a good example of this, as is Pinhead and Freddy (who is probably on the chopping block next/was nerfed hard respectively). Nurse is an outlier, even by DbD standards. Even very good killers can struggle to play her well (watch Otz's Nurse streak. He had an easier time on Doctor, of all things). She's only OP in theory.
But...that's immaterial. My point was that BHVR can't say 'we don't balance around high level play', 'we're nerfing Wraith because he was giving people a hard time in low level play' and also say 'we won't buff Nurse because she'd be too strong in high level play' or 'we aren't going to touch SWFs because they're only a problem in high level play'.
You can't have it both ways.
I cannot say that this is 100% confirmed, so do not say that you know differently, however my understanding as to why, Freddy/ Wraith and other killers were nerfed is not because they are too strong. Objectively Wraith with this best addons is still weaker then nurse with no addons. However those killers were dominating at the low ranks, 4k every game. The reason for this is those killers were extremely strong for how easy they are to play. I think it is common knowledge that the devs mainly balance around kill% right. In their mind a balanced killer majority of matches gets 2 kills 2 escapes. Well at low ranks wraith was getting a lot of 3 or 4 kills, however at the high ranks. Because killers tunnel and camp, this is artificially increasing the kill percent. Lets say you get gen rushed and get 1 kill with 1 gen left, You then camp another survivor to death. You then say this killer is weak, but the devs then look at the kill % an say, no 2 kills is balanced. I'm not staying this is a good way to balance but that is how they do it mainly.
Anyway I said both sides need to have at least incentives to play the game in a way that is more balanced if not punish them for it. genrushing may be funny the first time you do it, but by the 20th game, all you really are doing is just punishing yourself as well as the killer, and if you think that's ok, then that is a really awful mindset, (no that I'm saying you said that). I agree there needs to be a hard nerf on more or less everything in this game, survivor and killer, the gaps in strength between perks/ item/ addons is just awful.
As for your last point about swf, if they ever, punish SWF, DBD will die. Solo survivor is... just so awful. If I ever get punished simply for wanting to play with friends that may be the thing that kills this game.
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A lot of people jump to your defence of killers should do anything in their power to win... this is a really bad mindset. I hold the same view for survivors. There should be pre set rules for both sides and the game should punish people for not following them. I know a lot of people are going to say "Do whatever you need to win." That is such an awful mindset.
Lets say every player held that view, ok so every match will be the same 3 killers with the same perks using the same strategy going up against the same survivor perk. That sounds awful. I know a lot people are going to say "most people run the meta already." Exactly, it is because so many people hold this mindset that the game has become so unplayable. Doing all the gens in 4 minutes, wow fun game, killer abandons the match to camp somebody to death, yeah tones of un.
This game is being refined more and more and because of this this game is only going to be come worse. Do you know the best method to counter corrupt intervention? It is for all 4 players to hide for the first 3 minutes of a match. Just wait it out and only start doing the objective once it is gone. The killer will be checking the gens that are not corrupted, the won't go to the corner of the map with corrupt, so you are really unlikely to counter him. As a survivor you have no actual reason to start until corrupt is gone, imagine if every survivor did this, and considering corrupt is meta, imagine if most matches played out like that, does that seem like a fun game to you?
The truth is most players (I'm not saying you) but most players could not care if a match is balanced or not. Survivors are getting demolished, ez win, 3 generators before the first hook, EZ win. The majority of this community only cares when it affects them.
As for your point on wraith, he needed a nerf. What was happening was survivors were being forced to either drop the pallet and wraith breaks it with his increased break speed or save the pallet and the wraith would beat the survivor around basically any loop. All the change did was mean you actually have to learn to counter/ mind game loops instead of being able to easily get cheap hits. A"s for nurse, I mean what do you expect? She is the hardest to play but the most rewarding. So no wonder she has a low kill rate, unskilled players can't use her, but the experienced players will easily dominate most matches. That is a perfect killer.
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@Dino7281 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2617901#Comment_2617901
CoH will be issue as long everyone can self-heal with same speed as med-kit without valid counter-play.
Both sides have nuclear option and tactics, why is it toxic just because they want to win? There is counter-play to all of that.
Slugging is toxic? Oni and Twins would be terrible without slugging.
Survivor is trying to block me with BT, so I wait and down him, so if I hook him again, it's "tunneling", if I leave him it's slugging and both are in your opinion toxic, so because he wanted to annoy me even tho I wanted to go after unhooking person, I am toxic? Interesting
I just.... please actually read my post. Don't just respond.
I agreed with you on circle of healing.. I don't know why you keep bringing it up.
Both sides have nuclear option and tactics, why is it toxic? Because as I said it is not fun. I play DBD to have fun, if you want to play competitively then we have different goals for the game. I don't want to hear, SWF is makes the game unfun or 4 flashlights clicking is unfun, or I keep getting bullied and only get 1 hook, (i'm not saying you said this,) well guess what that's what a completive game is. Slugging, tunnelling, may be competitively a good strategy, but it is not fun. Maybe you want the game to be 4 survivors with the 4 same perks and the 3 viable killers with 4 perks, But I don't,
As for the twins/ oni, yeah twins would be far worse without slugging, that is what I call a poorly designed killer. That is why player disconnect constantly or kill themselves on hook against twins so much, not that they are too strong, but the chase, is the part of DBD that players want, and they just break that.
As for your last point, I actually said there are situations where tunnelling/ camping is acceptable. If a player taunts, if a player body blocks, at the end when all generators are finished I believe anything should go to ensure as many kills as possible.
My last post I outlined why camping/ tunnelling/ slugging is bad for the game, if the devs are not going to punish killers for doing this, then at least we need are proper methods to stop this from happening. Which is why D strike needs to be buffed, which the point of my original post. If not then I don't know what you are doing in DBD. When you play DBD and the killer stands in front of the hook for 3 minutes, or a nurse slugs everyone until they bleed out. Or you as the killer get 1 kill but only like 2 hooks, you say great game lots of fun. Because I don't, this is a massive issue that needs to be addressed. Before you or anyone says (but survivors genrush) I say yes, and there needs to be a punishment for that as well. Otherwise if anyone defends camping/ slugging or tunnelling, because anything goes then as a player you have to support genrushing.
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@Kiikii said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2615652#Comment_2615652
If you want 2 DS I want all gen progress slowed by 30% period. Because this would be ridiculous to any killer trying to get to hooks on anyone.
Why? What is your issue with D stirke currently? The perk has an auto countdown of only 60 seconds. A survivor cannot touch a gen, so even if they taunt you that they are immune, they aren't doing anything. If they body block for a team mate then just slug them. If you are getting hit by D strike I genuinely don't know how other then you are tunnelling. In which case maybe... stop?
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@Dino7281 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2615877#Comment_2615877
I am pretty confident in being high MMR killer, I usually didn't have to use tunneling, but that just changed since CoH. That is just cheap way of having effect as 4x med-kits. Tunneling is just best way how to deal with CoH / 4x medkits.
I have never said killers win against us, it's rare to get more than 1 dead with my squad. We don't really babysit killers, so we can't be mad when they try to win too. It's just rare to see actual tunneling, most killer are willing to switch if you give them that option. Camping from first hook is even more rare, I really don't count camping when all gens are done, or proxy-camping that is valid too, slugging is really good way how to get pressure, if you think it is toxic and killers should not use it, then you should question your own skill instead...
Slugging is not toxic, camping is not toxic, tunneling is not toxic. You have no idea how toxic looks like...
No you're right, lets have every match of DBD the killer will slug, tunnel and camp because not toxic right. Except it's miserable experience for all players, not just the one on the hook. Bubba stands in front of the hook all match. Not toxic, and if you get slugged off hook, your own fault for getting hooked, not toxic. Killer focus you out of the match, not toxic. Nurse with infectious fright, slugs the entire match? not toxic. Lets say toxic is the wrong word, more like miserable. Ok, so now Dstrike is mandatory, unbreakable is mandatory, Borrowed time is mandatory. This does not sound like a fun healthy game.
There are exceptions when I can accept camping/ slugging, tunnelling, mainly when the last gen is finished, I say anything goes to escape/ kill. As for COH, they need to make it that the self healing speed caps at 50% healing speed as a starting point.
Also I do give killers the option to switch, to the point that I will often trade myself for my teammates if we need more time finish the gens. I don't care about winning, I care about how I win, and sitting on the hook for 3 minutes while my teammates hold M1 because the killer returns to the hook every 30 seconds does not sound like a fun game.
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@Dino7281 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2615686#Comment_2615686
"Does those numbers seem fair?"
Well, those numbers are made from nothing...
I can say we face actual tunneling in like 1 of 10 games. So based on that it's fine?
You have perks and tactics that just results in tunneling being best option for a killer -> looking at CoH.
There is usually reason why killer is tunneling, or it's not actual tunneling at all.
If a killer doesn't have any better option other than leave that survivor, it's not tunneling.
If that killer just downed you and left, it's not tunneling.
If you tried to get BT hit with body-blocking killer and he waits 12 seconds, it's not tunneling.
I always go for protective hits when killer is chasing someone on dead hook, I even let them down me if needed.
I was pretty generous with those numbers to exaggerate my point. At high rank DBD most games if not all involve tunnelling to a certain degree. Ask any experienced killer and they will tell you they need to tunnel to win against top survivors. If killers aren't tunnelling and are still winning in your matches, then you or your teammates are objectively bad. with SBM it has now become so bad D strike is now mandatory. What a lot of killers will do is camp or tunnel one survivor to death and hope they die before the last gen so they only have to pressure 3 people. I sympathise with killer mains, I really do, and I struggle to be motivated to paly killer, however tunnelling, camping and slugging is toxic. It's the same as 4 survivors running 4 speed toolboxes or deliberately letting teammates die simply so the killer gets less points. It is really bad for the game and needs to be discouraged. Just because something is effective or (necessary) does not mean its good. Also slugging somebody of hook is tunnelling, objectively, your dying state is a health bar, the killer is decreasing your health bar while on the ground. that is still targeting them, (tunnelling.) As for your point with BT, yeah I agree if you taunt with BT or d strike then the killer isn't at fault, but I don't really know what to do about that, and that is a separate issue for a different discussion.
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@Dino7281 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2615652#Comment_2615652
I actually got value from DS way more since nerf, just because killers don't respect it that much, unless you make it super obvious that you have DS...
DS is not weak at all and you really don't wanna make it infinite duration on ground, I would let you bleed out...
I wouldn't mind bigger skill check.
The issue isn't that I'm not getting tunnelled I am A LOT. lets say 1/10 games I miss the skill check. 2/10 the killer slugs. 2/10 the killer is nurse/ blight or spirit, high mobility incredibly fast downing speed making the perk have far less value. 1/10 games after I land the DS is screw up or get genuinely outplayed and go down fairly quickly after the stun. Does those numbers seem fair? 6/10 games I do not feel like the killer the is properly punished for tunnelling. This takes up an entire perk slot just to punish a playstyle that is already toxic. I know that tunnelling already punishes the killer by rewarding few points and lets say in most cases your teammates do the objective and 3 escape. All that means is is not only does nobody win as the person who dies get nothing and the people who did the objective won't pip in I believe silver onwards with zero benevolence and zero chase. But I still am miserable even if I help my teamates escape As for the bleedout point, I would make it the perk works by stunning the killer when they hit the survivor and giving the survivor the mettle of man effect.
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@Mandy said:
If you had the chance to repair etc then you weren't being tunnelled anyway.
DS in it's current form is a lot healthier for the game than the previous iteration of it. It genuinely works on being tunnelled now, whereas before it was often used to just be invincible from the killer - for example, working on a gen right in front of the killer knowing that the killer couldn't pick them up because of DS.
Untrue. If Decisive strike was designed to be purely anti tunnel then
1 It should have 2 uses, why should it be disabled if used, if the killer is hit with Decisive, they won't go oh no I tunnelled, they say great now I can freely tunnel this guy.
2 the perk should only be disabled if a gen is touched or if a player heals (ect) why do killers still have the option to down a player and wait out the timer, old DS, sure slugging was a means of countering, but slugging now is simply abusing an already weak perk..
3 Decisive should not have a skill check or at least should not be affected by perks/addons(ect) that effect skill checks. Why do I only have a chance of escaping. I know its easy to hit the skill check but I do miss it occasionally and when I do, not only I suffer but my whole team suffers because of it. Killers even have a means of countering Decisive, unnerving presence/ enduring, clowns gas. This perk is supposed to stop killers from playing an unfun playstyle and yet have plenty of ways of countering it.
Lets be real the rework to Decisive strike was rushed and now the perk only really works if the killer is standing in front of the hook and chooses to pick them up immediately. Even if they do depending on the killer Decisive strike is not a big deal, especially high mobility killers such as nurse and Blight.
Old Decisive may have been strong but at least it made killers fear tunnelling. Unlike now where killers have little fear of the perk. Please bring back Old Decisive (Not original Decisive ) to return the game back to when tunnelling was really punishing.
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Very strong. Base 115 movement speed killer making him a viable M1 killer his chainsaw is just... broken, at most loops a survivor has to make a choice. save the pallet, leatherface gets a speed boost from his chainsaw and will catch you before you finish the loop. Or you drop the pallet and he instantly breaks it with his chainsaw and is on you way to quickly. Sure you can use windows. However most leatherfaces run bamboozle to simply a negate the loop. He may not be as strong as some killers, either low A tier or High B tier however he way to strong for how easy he is to play
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People confuse nerf with rework. Trickster is by no means strong, making him weaker would be redundant and is what happened to Deathslinger. Trickster does not need to be weaker, rather his power to needs to be changed to allow actual counterplay. He throws his knives to fast with not enough cooldown between them and with way to many knives even without addons. His power is unavoidable unless using a long wall loop and will slowly injure you over time even if you perfectly loop. Also showstopper is just... bad, rapid knives? Most good tricksters hold the showstopper until somebody is hooked and then camp the hook making a save near impossible.
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@FellowKillerMain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/291781/killers-stop-moaning
Survivors need to be nerfed because the game is doing more them than they do for themselves, most of the time. Unlimited vaulting with no cooldown; fast vaulting while standing still at pallets; 50 billion pallets in every level; most loops have increased in size when they said they would be decreased in size when they reworked the springwood maps.
The killers are playing against the developers, now. Not survivors.
If survivors could not fast vault pallets unless coming at the right angle like windows then 90% of pallets would be easy to mindgame. Most maps have shrunk in size and has created an issue where there are simply too many hooks, resulting in killers being able to easily camp 2 survivors at once. Worst still pallets have been decreased so much that plenty of maps have artificial dead zones, that if a survivor is not informed beforehand risks running to an area of a map with literally nothing. This is also why so many survivors pick a direction and run until they go down now due to maps being so anti-survivor and no loops. Lastly most of the "god loops" from old dbd have been blocked off and the few that remain can be negated by breakable walls. Only a few good loops remain and the few that do can easily be countered by strong killers.
I"m not saying this game is killer sided, however you are ignoring years of balancing for killers so that you can continue to complain and act like the game has not changed when it really has.
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I think the issue is not that they lost but more how they lost. Even if your whole team did generators the whole time, and saved with BT and had DS. It is unlikely the person being targeted will survive. Survivors don't need a buff, killers simply need to be punished for this as a way to discourage this type of playstyle. Nobody has fun and is toxic.
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@Dino7281 said:
It's not possible and would just create more issues.
You can't just rank strongest to weakest. How that perk is good depends on map, playstyle, killer, skill level and probably some more factors. There is no way to make this fair for both sides, that's just impossible. How the perk is strong is really subjective. Undying is way stronger in low MMR than high MMR for example.
Other way is to value, how much those perks are used. Well, if you use your system, than weak perks are going to be used more and it will mess up balancing, because you will not be able to tell, which perks are not used much "because they are really bad", when people starts using them for more BP.
How to change meta? Easy, buff weak perks. They did quite good job in last patch, at least for survivors, it didn't really affect killers. I love Built to Last, Windows of Opportunity and Any Means Necessary. That's the best way to go imo.
Buffing weak perks won't work. If all the weak perks were buffed all to the same level of the stronger perks, this would create more perks that are honestly way to strong. It is simply impossible to buff 60+ perks without some of them becoming too strong. Honestly a lot of perks are too strong already. You can't just nerf the meta perks due to many of them needing to exist and even if you did, most players would simply move too the second strongest. I think you can rank the perks. It's somewhat debatable sure, but the stronger perks aren't map dependent that's the thing. Weak perks require a gimmick to work or only have any real value on certain maps. For example Dead hard works just as well on every map, while visionary is really only useful on indoor maps. Just because you happen to get visionary on Racoon city does not instantly make visionary a strong perk. perks in the "average" category may become a bit more debatable but I think there is too huge of gap in perk strengths too not be able to create a tier list.
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The issue I Have with your overall idea, and this the problem with balancing in general is killers that are powerful, are so much more powerful then those that are weak, and nobody really wants to address this. Sure a trapper with say only one gen slow down perk lets say has a strength of 1, and will lose 95% of matches. But a nurse of spirit running(Corupt, tinker, undying ruin, ECT) is actually absurdly powerful. They would have a strength of say 15. It is ridiculous how strong killers can be, and lets be honest unless you are playing in a team that can coordinate, is really hard to beat. Do they lose at high mmr? Yes but they need to be realistically beatable by a team that is not a 4 man SWF. Either all killers need to be brought up to to the same strength as a nurse/ spirit, or the Nurse and Spirit need to be brought down to at least Bligh, before balancing anything else.
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@bm33 said:
Green keys can be found in chests and unless you are running Ace in the hole they do not include add-ons even though their only use comes from equipping them with add-ons. Devs intended this otherwise they would have given them some base ability.
Medkits, which you are more likely to be able to use, are a common item making them appear more often in chests. Keys, which you would not use as often, are rare so they do not appear as often in chests. Would you rather keys were made common and you have higher odds to pull one out over a medkit?
I have had many matches where a teammate brought in a green key with aura reading add-ons or used the aura reading add-ons on a purple/pink key. I've seen people say that thanks to the nerf they'll be more willing to bring a green key with add-ons since they'll be less likely now to be tunneled out if killer sees a key in the lobby. This comes down to a play style choice - while you wouldn't use a key for aura reading there are plenty who will to save a perk slot for something else.
I always considered green keys as a joke. Lets be honest, a green key with no addons does nothing, I think this was implemented during the time in DBD where balance was less of an issue and if was made under today's development, green keys would likely never have existed.
As your point on med kits, obviously I prefer med kits over the reworked keys, even if the key had aura reading by default. However the fact most people would rather a common item over a rare item, I think is rather poor balancing.
Again my actual point is not that keys are weak, I in fact support keys being nerfed. I however outlined the situation where the key itself can be used, and it is rare and obscure. With addons it may be used, but no other item in the game is like this. What my biggest fear is that survivors who have a key will realise that their best chance of escaping is letting teammates die. If there are 3 survivors and 3 generators left, if one survivor has a key, the optimal way to survive is just hide. The moment they realise they are likely to lose they go hide, now sure currently some survivors already do that. however if 3 survivors are alive and 3 geneartors, if they do even just one generator if one teammate dies, they can still escape and so can their teammate. There is at least incentive to keep playing. If you are running a key you are saying "not only do I already plan on losing, but I will let you die to ensure that I survive. They may not, but that is what you are saying. It is even worse when you realise that survivors can't even start looking for hatch until all their teammates are dead, so killers have more of an incentive to camp because there is no need for them to search for hatch, the survivors literally cannot start looking until their teammates die, making every match a 50/50 who finds hatch first.
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@bm33 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2530306#Comment_2530306
I didn't say I'm regularly not getting hit. I said you can go through a match where you don't get hit or players are in broken state. These matches do happen enough with camping killers or vs Plague.
Having an additional option to escape the match when you're the last survivor, especially if door RNG is terrible, makes the key useful. Better to have the key and not need it than not have the key at all. Then on top of that you can equip add-ons that give you aura reading through out the match, adding to the usefulness of keys outside just being used for the hatch.
To use a key you will need
to be the last person alive
have found one inside a chest
have the killer found hatch and chosen to close it
the doors be too close together or killer with high mobility
find the hatch in the allocated 3 minutes
avoid the killer, who will be looking specifically for you, and if you brought one in for your (aura reading he should know this.
and open the hatch when the killer is not around as there will be an unlock bar like the door.
This is the bare minimum circumstances in order to use a key form a chest.
to use a medkit you will need
verse any killer besides plaque as I believe she is the only killer to skip the healing mechanic
find a medkit in a chest
get hit (which you should be, if you're not getting hit the killer is either not playing the game, or you are in too low of a rank)
and then find an opportunity to heal which should be happening unless the killer is tunnelling you in which case no item will save you
one of these is a common item, the other is a rare item. As for aura reading there are I believe 4 aura reading addons for keys, 1 for killer 3 for teammates. I stated if the devs intended for keys to be used in aura reading they would make them appear in chests that way. I suppose if you really want to see aura and do not want to run
kindred
bond
empathy
a map
rookie spirit
detectives hunch
visionary
dark sense
sabatour
counterforce
new perk Clairvoyance
or any other aura reading perk I suppose you could run a key. But lets be serious nobody is going to do that. Especially the completive players, I may run it as a joke, but that is it. Simply making a perk or item (a meme) is not a proper rework.
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@bm33 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2530229#Comment_2530229
As I said, you could go an entire match not needing to heal which would make the medkit useless. Medkit is only useful if you or a teammate are injured and not in broken state.
A purple/pink key without add-ons you still have a chance to open the hatch if it is closed which allows you to avoid the doors, this is very useful if they spawned close by or you have a killer that can cover distance quickly. Before the nerf you were never guaranteed to be able to use the key during the match - you could've died before the hatch was even revealed.
If you are regularly going entire matches without being hit. You should create a youtube channel because you have to teach your skill to the community. Also read my initial post, I outline the 2 specific scenarios that the key can be used but it is no guaranteed. I already addressed the points you made.
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@bm33 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2530176#Comment_2530176
There are definitely times to see killer and teammates auras outside of a player being on a hook. Being in chase with a killer and finding teammates to heal/work on gens are just two examples.
None of the items have add-ons when pulled from a chest unless you have ace in the hole equipped. Green maps without add-ons is only useful to find gens, if you know where all the gens are it has no purpose like a green key. If you don't get injured or you're playing against the plague you may not be able to use your item just like you wouldn't be able to use the purple/pink key for hatch - but atleast the add-ons make the key useful outside the hatch while the medkit add ons do not make it useful outside healing.
Maps have a purpose of revealing generators, totems, traps ect, useful.
Medkits have the purpose of healing yourslef. Useful.
Even toolboxes can be used to slightly increase gen speed.
Flashlights blind, even if your bad it still has a use
My issue is you can go entire match with a key and never even get a chance to use it, without any addons. No other item is like this. That is my my problem.
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@bm33 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2530075#Comment_2530075
You can only use Kindred when someone is hooked, that is the only time you can use that perk. Just because many run it doesn't change you only get use from it during a specific situation in the match. You can't track your teammates or the killer outside of someone being hooked and the killer near the hook.
I never said medkits and flashlights are bad. You said "you're telling me that you would bring a green key with add-ons to track your team mates instead of Kindred and an actual useful item like a medkit or if you're confident enough a flashlight." and I responded with they are just not useful for me because of my play style.
As for "perks are better in every way than the item" - You heal much faster with a medkit (especially with add ons) than you do using the perk Self Care. Sabotage with a toolkit is better than the perk simply because the perk has a cool down. Using pink map to find totems is better than waiting for gens to finish with Detectives Hunch or running around waiting for a sound to go off with Small Game. Using a key with add-ons to see killer/survivors at anytime is better than waiting for someone to be hooked (Kindred), someone to be injured (Empathy), or killer to kick something (Alert). Like I said before, you use an item to free up perk slot for something else more useful based on your playstyle. All the items can be useful depending on your playstyle and the perks you could run aren't necessarily better than the item/addons you could use instead.
Many times when I saw someone bring in a purple/pink key they had aura reading add-ons attached. Until recently you could use all the charges on a key with it's aura reading ability and then use it to escape. Alot avoided running green keys with add ons not because they weren't useful but because killers would use Franklin's or tunnel them out if they saw a key in the lobby. The keys aura add ons are extremely useful and now keys are nerfed killers will be less inclined to tunnel out survivors they see with a key so more will run the green keys with aura add-ons - if they ran an aura perk they can now free up that spot to run something else.
Kindred Either your teammates are on the hook revealing your entire team to you and the killers aura or nobody is on the hook in which case you don't really need to know where they are. While I believe the key may have addons for aura reading that is only secondary to the real benefit of opening hatch. Also as I said, there is no guarantee the key will have an addon for aura reading. If the key was intended for this by the devs the keys would now have addons by default in chests. This is clearly not the devs intention. If you get a pink key from a chest with no addons, you may never get to use the item thorughout an entire match. This is somehow still 'ultra rare." My point is this idea is clearly rushed and now keys serve no real purpose during a match.
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@xenotimebong said:
I’m sure there will be a lot of criticisms, so I just wanted to point out the stuff that is really good about this update:
- Plague buffs! Nothing super strong but some nice QoL changes that will make her feel better and less frustrating to play.
- Windows of Opportunity losing its cooldown - this is great and was very much needed.
- Any Means Necessary getting built-in dropped pallet aura reading is a really nice change, too.
- Key nerfs! We’ve been waiting for a long time but I think this change is perfect. Helps killers not get screwed by bad luck, helps solo survivors not get screwed by bad luck, and now survivors can actually use keys for challenges and not get camped to death for it.
- And the hatch only spawning when one survivor is left will hopefully cut down on survivors creeping around waiting for their teammate to die when there are only two left, and will also stop people dcing to give their friend hatch, two issues that have been a pain in the butts of killers for a while.
I’m very pleased about this update, and even more excited to see the add on changes now. Thank you.
At the moment lets say there is 1 gen left and 2 survivors. 1 of which is 2nd stage hook. Currently the killer has a choice, leave the hook allowing a save but search for the hatch so they know where it will be for later or camp the hook and hope the teammate reveals themselves, fair. Now the hatch will not have spawned in the only thing for he killer to do camp the hook, as there is no incentive to leave because either the survivor will come to the hook. Or if they choose to wait out out their teammate, it will be entirely down to luck who the hatch opens closest too. this result in more camping, more waiting out of teammates as keys will be a very selfish item. I support keys being nerfed, but not this.
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All keys are being nerfed to be broken keys, that is my point. I outlined the specific situation that would have to occur to use them naturally in a match and it is way to specific. Their aura readings the only guaranteed value and add dons from chests are not guaranteed.
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keys and mori are not the same. They may be equal in power, but they are not the same. If a killer equips a mori. Even if you see no value in skipping the pick up and hook on the 3rd survivor. At worst you can say a mori has no impact and purely enjoyment. As for keys however, I already outlined the situation needed to actually use one. the chance of it happening naturally is incredibly small. You will have to force it otherwise the item will be useless. This would actually make skeleton keys weaker then a brown toolbox, as it least the toolbox has value. I understand aura reading, but as I Stated (Chests). If I see a teammate with a key, They are telling me they already planning on tanking the match and waiting out for hatch.
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That is my point. I don't have an issue with keys be nerfed, I in fact support it. However, I genuinely see no value in keys anymore, especially with chests. This needed to be considered when implementing the nerf and simply was not.
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Right but mori is at least... fun you get a neat kill animation and get to skip hooking the survivor a 3rd time. That is at least some value, there is a point to it. Now it would be more of a hinderance to have key because you are taking you are taking up an item spot that could be used for something like a med kit. as for aura reading while that is true, remember what you get form a chest is random. if you get a key from a chest it may have no addons at all. and as for point about opening a hatch when the killer is patrolling the doors. That is a very specific circumstance. you have to be the last person alive. the killer has to have found the hatch. the endgame collapse will have started so you countdown to automatic loss is already going. you will then have to find a key the doors have to be reasonably close enough that opening it is too risky or versing a killer then can traverse across the map really fast (Blight, ect). All so you can maybe find the hatch and escape. And nobody sees a problem with this being an "Ultra rare" item?