GonnaBlameTheMovies
GonnaBlameTheMovies
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I feel like Dance With Me was a very good buff though not that impactful in most games I play now. However I really don't think the changes to the shenanigans perks were significant buffs, since they just lead to people trying to force value out of more Blast Mines or Chem Traps Flashbangs but doing LESS work for the team. They really aren't any better than they were before, they straight up made Blast Mine and Chem Trap both last shorter and made you have to do less of a gen to get one. You're doing less for the team and getting less in return just to be able to use them more, these were not buffs they were NERFS.
As for Flashbang, now you're in a locker more often doing nothing but charging Flashbang and wasting more time, just like other locker perks. This was also not a buff but a nerf, because again, you are doing less gen and thus less for the team just to be able to maybe blind the Killer more often and even then only if you are good or running certain, also nerfed, perks.
People have called me nuts for this take. Maybe I am. But IMHO I can't call "perk lasts shorter in exchange for doing less for the team" a buff.
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Myers needs some serious numbers tweaks and some updates to what his kit HAS, but not what his kit IS. His kit overall is fine, it's the numbers being off and the need to rework several addons while basekitting others.
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He's absolutely fine, I think he's fun and balanced. He's flexible to build for like Vecna, and has a lot of different playstyles with how you focus him too - you can build around mixed forms, build around his mobility, build around wolf, around Vampire form, play him near pure M1, play him moderately stealth, very cool. I've gotten out against him almost as much as I've been destroyed as him, and my Killer games go about the same way. I don't see the complaints others have; if anyone thinks he's too weak they are just at an MMR that he doesn't do as well at.
That's fine. Not every Killer needs to stomp Survivor teams. Sometimes they just need to be fun, balanced, and interesting. Dracula is all three. he's fine and needs no changes; he's like Ghostface - not overly strong, but really fun, arguably balanced, and can be dangerous in the right hands.
I will say Bat form's sound is way too loud to track over and Hellfire is a really weird projectile that maybe doesn't work at some loops. Hellfire could use a slightly shorter cooldown and doesn't need such a punishing miss cooldown. It's possible the Wolf Pounce could also use a slight cooldown decrease too.
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I feel like a lot of the arguing for Weave Attunement comes down to one simple issue that needs resolving: Most items are fine, they are there to enhance play.
The real reason you would ever run an anti-item build? Toolboxes. It's toolboxes. They're hands down the strongest item in the game… and maybe too strong at that, or rather one specific one is. Commodious, and every iteration on Commodious such as the event toolboxes. -
@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792387#Comment_3792387
Because the community voted that they wanted faster queues over more accurate matchmaking. It was a big thing. Matchmaking used to be much stricter but people were quite upset with the long queue times (and it hurt killers more as you needed more survivors who were on the killer’s MMR, but it’s a lot tougher for survivors to gain MMR than killers) so BHVR had to deeply relax the skill-based matchmaking system.
A shame. Maybe making MMR gain and loss equal would help?
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Is it possible your mindset is way too deadset on winning as a Survivor and not on just... having fun trying to see how long you last? In my experience it's more randoms that are the issue, not Killers… Getting a lotta sandbaggers as Survivor. Not a fan of how the 70 second hookstages are making people leave others on hook and thus farming the gens, either. Not to mention because Blast Mine and Flashbang activate sooner for less gen, people are just trying to get as many of those off as possible instead of sticking on gens like in the past, which is a full on detriment to the team - you're throwing even more than before running those perks and the Killer still might get annoyed and tunnel you out over it. Even the Sabo buffs haven't done much of anything because now people throw to sabo thinking they cut their team some huge break, and we all end up slugged.
Why is it that every seeming supposed good thing Survs have gotten in the past year has been a Trojan Horse? And why do we all keep falling for it, thinking these things are buffs when in practice they aren't, they're just excuses to get people off the gens and stop genrushing, excuses that don't even deter people who WANT to genrush?
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
I think Dracula bugs aside is one of the funnest killers to play as with lots of room to improve as a player with how fun his abilities are, don't buff him, I don't want to hate another killer I've come to enjoy playing as, I think he is where all killers should be atm, good 1v1 and good 4v1 IMO.
I agree, both facing and playing as Drac is fine just the way he is. Not every Killer NEEDS to be nor should be super powerful. I don't think anyone should be S or D tier, at all. I do however, think Drac needs some small, small QoL things:
- Perhaps SOME of the addons could be basekitted,
- Sylph Feather is still apparently bugged,
- Reduce the ambient sound on Bat the way you reduced Dredge's sound,
- Why does Force of Echo power up Wolf not Bat?
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@Mandy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792130#Comment_3792130
It's fully intended that killers can change their loadouts based on what survivors are bringing into the game and there are no plans to change that, it's part of the design of the game.
Thanks also for confirming this and nipping this question in the bud, Mandy. It's absurd that people even want to have items hidden in the lobby, like how would that be fair to Killer? They can't see your addons, and Survivors can't see who the Killer is OR their addons. That makes it fair. The Killer needs to be able to strategize because items can change the game.
I would ask we maybe standardize some items though. I think maybe toolboxes could stand a bit of a standardization, and we could do something to improve keys somehow. I think maps, Medkits, and Flashlights are all fine where they are now, though I'd love to see addons that change how flashlights work the way maps and keys have them - and I think Styptics and Syringes need a MASSIVE looking at as they can create similar issues to what FTP+BU did.
That said, can you please also state whether some strategic focusing out of players (non-toxic tunnelling), hovering or patrolling of hooked Survivors or sticking around certain gen clusters near endgame, (camping), and prolonged downs for pressure (non-toxic slugging) are intended game design, as long as they are not drawing the game out or used to grief? Because that seems to be a very common misconception in this community.
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@LapisInfernalis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790647#Comment_3790647
I have already seen basekit Claudettes and Megs who want to look like noobs but are actually P100 lol
I don't trust the cosmetics, I trust how they play or I trust what they're bringing into the lobby.
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But why though? Is there really still salt from 2v8?
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@BrightWolf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3791034#Comment_3791034
I know the Legion struggles so bad. Like never mind that they're pretty mid-tier because of how disadvantaged they are on large maps, not to mention with all these new perks/tiles for "chase extension" and people are just pre-running/dropping the moment they hear their TR. But they are by no means the "worst killer to face" There are others for that, like Plague, for example, who does everything that people complain about Legion doing but infinitely worse imho because her power can linger on objectives. While Legion is an M1 killer with a chase power that inflicts deep wound, sure mending is annoying, but just play around Legion's power and don't group up and you'll be fine.
But as for the abuse, I understand as well. I got called a "sweaty Legion" for bringing Franklin's to counter a wannabe flashlight bully squad. And they got mad that I kept kitting them outside of power to make them drop their purple items with strong add-ons. Never mind they gave up the moment they realised they couldn't effectively bully me as they hoped. But somehow its still my fault.
Anyway, the sore winners are also why I don't bother much with killers like Nurse, Blight, Spirirt, Wesker etc. It's also why I hesitate to play new killers like The Unknown, Vecna and Dracula, because people will be mad if I'm not a P100 sweet lord going for the 4K. Yet, as mentioned above will still be upset if you're just a P1 with yellow perks experimenting with how their power works and now really trying to "win".
Seriously, do people want to sweat their balls off every game or do they want to play chill? Or is this a case of people sitting in a fire and complaining that it's hot?It happens to Survivors too, Sable is a Survivor I enjoy running on occasion, she's in my roster. I love Sable, I love her aesthetic, it reminds me of The Craft and I really love that.
But because there's so. Friggin'. Many toxic Sables out there, I consistently always get targeted out as her SO BAD. I'm not toxic, I'm not a mean person, I don't teabag and don't run obnoxious builds. But no matter what I do, I get targeted by both Killers and Survivors simply for daring to play a Survivor people don't like because… why, exactly? Because she has crappy lore? Because people don't like her design or personality? Because she's not as fleshed out as other Survivors yet? It's absurd. I just wanna be a silly Goth girl wing-haver.
And the sad thing is Skull Merchant gets this same treatment for the same reason, so now the only people who play her do it to be toxic with her. It's ridiculous.
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
The biggest problem for solo queue is the ridiculously terrible MMR scoring system that uses escapes as the SOLE DEFINING INDICATOR OF YOUR SKILL. It boggles my mind that we can't use the whole emblem system, which has other elements that correlate highly with being good at looping, not being a useless teammate, etc. If we had a halfway-functioning MMR scoring system and matchmaking system, at least there would be some hope in solo queue that if you play well, even if you don't escape, you will eventually get matched with non-useless teammates. With the current system, it's especially difficult for good solo queue players to increase their MMR scores because they so often get matched with terrible teammates and have no chance of escaping, no matter how good these poor solo queue players are.
There should also be an option for you to not be matched with a certain percentile below your MMR score. Make it a check box in the options that says you are willing to wait for longer queues to avoid being matched with other players way below your skills level.
The problem exists for Killers too, because the MMR only cares about Kills. Nothing else. If you are too good and you 3-4k too often, even if they are good loopers who just had a bad game, you skyrocket your MMR just by chance. If people throw, you get a free win and boost MMR for nothing, which can push you to a higher level than you are ready for. Then if you realize you're there you have a harder time getting out of it solely because of the loss prevention feature to prevent smurfing, which doesn't even work because people can and do still lobby dodge.
I don't know why on earth we can't have the option to wait for better queues to match us with people who aren't so far beyond or below our skill level with a Killer or as Survivor, there's nothing that we can do. -
Knight. Cool aesthetic, looks interesting, really nifty cosmetics, awesome power idea.
I absolutely hate playing as him with a burning passion.
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I mean 4x1 is always 4 in Euclidian space, it's not exactly hard math to assume that if you have MORE of one role per role, the odds of getting an expected result will be that multiplier more. If you have four times as many black marbles as white ones, and toxic of either are marbles with speckles, and the draw is four blacks to a white, but there's a small number of speckles in each? The odds you will draw one or more speckles for the black marbles is higher, than for the white ones. I can even prove it for you if you all want calculations. You're not getting toxic players as often as you think.
We will be liberal here and define Killer toxicity as anything Killers do to grief or annoy Survivors: egregious camping, strong perks on already overly strong Killers they're good at, slugging for 4ks or bleedout, hard non-tactical tunnelling, humpteching, etc. We will define Survivor Toxicity as anything Survivors do to irritate anyone else in the round: running annoyance perks with the intent to irritate (and not be silly or something), sandbagging, giving up on hook, DCing, farming off hooks, teaming with the Killer, teabagging, bodyblocks to deny the first or any hooks at all when the Killer is struggling, flashlights and clicky clicky, bully squadding, singling a random out with their SWF, etc.
Let's say we have a sample of 5000 Killers and 5000 Survivors each. Let's say that 500 of each of these players are known to be toxic players in some way, because it's very unlikely people play this game just to bully - most people want to play the game. Now obviously we have millions of players, but let's pretend this is how many we have. We are not replacing players "drawn" for a match, no lobby dodging or anything. That means operating with a 1 in 10 chance of any given Killer OR Survivor being toxic, or 10%. However because there's four times more Survivors, the chance of repeatedly getting a toxic Survivor increases to 40%. That means it's four times more likely you will get someone toxic as KIller than as Survivor. We basically have to assume that at least one Survivor will be toxic based on this due to the sheer numbers.
The data are normally distributed so if an event is certain to occur, p=1 and anything above that would mean a certainty as well. Both these draws happen independently of each other. If we then remember there is a draw four times for each Survivor, we have to multiply it by four, and this assumes at least one Survivor is Toxic if not all four. Assuming a normal distribution, when starting a draw of five players:
- Toxic Killer: 10%, this includes you.
- Toxic Survivor: 40%, this includes you.
And when looking at the whole lobby, with yourself included in the number:
- Chance that the Killer is toxic but no Survivors are: 6%, not as much as you think.
- Chance that at least one Survivor is Toxic, but the Killer isn't: 36%
- Chance that the Killer is not toxic (but Survs may or may not be): 90%, meaning most of the time the Killer isn't toxic. At all.
- Chance that a Survivor is not toxic (but the Killer may or may not be), when we draw four times: 60%, which means most of the time Survs are not toxic, either. At all.
- Chance that everyone is toxic on both sides: 4%. Toxic isn't meeting toxic much to get justice on either side.
- Chance that either the Killer or the Survivors or both are toxic: 46%. In other words you kinda need to assume someone or both could be toxic to you, regardless of role.
- Chance that someone is toxic, but not both sides: 42%, on the bright side it's a little less likely someone will be toxic to you, regardless of role, but not by much.
- Chance of a game where nobody is toxic: 54%. You are not getting as many games with toxicity as you think you are. In fact most of the time you're not.
What this breaks down to is this.As Survivor:
- You are more likely to get toxic teammates than a toxic Killer.
- No, you are not "always getting Toxic Killers when you're playing nice". You're catastrophizing if you think this. It's just not happening, you are remembering bad matches aside from good.
- If you think the other side is being toxic to you, it's more likely to be happening because you are doing something toxic or perceived as toxic.
- If you're SWF, there's a stronger likelihood than not that you will have a toxic random, but also a stronger chance your SWF will be the toxic ones. If you're looking for "justice" against a "useless" or toxic random, you're probably also being toxic.
- It is unlikely, however, if that random OR your SWF are toxic, that the Killer will also be toxic. You're bullying the wrong people.
- It's even less likely that the Killer is going to be toxic to you all if all of you are random, though it does happen. Most Killers are not toxic or super aggro to random lobbies.
- If you have no idea as a SoloQ and have all randoms, it's highly likely that the Killer is probably not going to be toxic. However you need to be prepared if someone is toxic, because there is almost a 50/50 chance someone or both sides will be toxic to you.
- No, people are not being toxic to punish toxicity on the other side. They're just being toxic, and most toxicity is not even aimed at toxic players but people just trying to play the game. If you think you're serving justice to toxicity, you're probably just being toxic yourself.
And this all explains why SoloQ sucks. You get toxicity from both sides, and even when you're nice and the Killer is, there is no guarantee the others will be. That also means that you are much more likely to get it from other Survivors instead of Killer. Your problem is not toxic Killers - it's toxic Survivors, but toxic Killers do not help when you DO get one. You are probably overassuming that Killers are more toxic than they really are, and giving your teammates too much of the benefit of the doubt.
As Killer:
- You need to assume at least an over 50% chance that someone in the lobby is toxic or going to play aggressively especially if the queue is a SWF.
- You have a higher chance of meeting toxic Survivors, either one or all four, than if you were Survivor - and if they're SWF it's likely this tendency increases because toxic players play toxically together, and much Surv toxicity needs coordination.
- If nobody in the lobby is being aggro or toxic, but you are then you might be the toxic Killer.
- You yourself probably are not intending to be toxic.
- No, you're not punishing toxicity on toxic Survivors being jerks to their team as much as you think. You could be accidentally targeting the wrong people.
- Most of your games probably aren't toxic but you still have to err on the side of caution, and be prepared for if they are.
So as Killer, you probably aren't trying to be toxic, but people will think you're toxic anyway, so you may as well play what helps you win. That said, you do have a responsibility, since you can do more about it, to be a good human. That doesn't mean being a pushover, that means not being one of those 4% of toxic Killers being toxic just to be toxic. You know better. Be the bigger person. You're the power role.
But looking at these data, even with this very rough estimate of 1 in every 10 on each side being toxic? Survivors are still on average more toxic to everyone in the round by far, based on sheer numbers, and it isn't even close. Survivor Mains? Be better.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790998#Comment_3790998
My point is that killers will prefer the pop+pain res combo over slugging as well, which is why I said this problem solves itself.
This complaining over 10 extra seconds of hooks happens basically any time there literally any change whatsoever. A small, but loud, group of people have a tantrum, threaten to play like ######### for a while, and then it dies off and never becomes a meta strategy.
It's pretty tiresome to listen to, honestly.
Oh, my bad, I misread it. You're right it's annoying, why are we all fighting over something arguably healthy for the game? It really only seems to punish ranged Killers that camp, or mobility Killers that camp, and it makes going to the hook to unhook soon dangerous in case the Killer does come back. I have seen no impact from it in my games but ranged Killers ARE camping less… though I have seen more slugging.
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@BrightWolf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790256#Comment_3790256
Know the feeling, play badly on a killer that is "known" for being OP or hell, even on a mid teir killer, because you just want to try them out for a change of pace and you get told to "uninstall, trash newb git gud" because how dare someone be new and or bad with a killer who strong.
No joke, I had someone tell me "GGez, baby Nurse got smoked. Uninstall and stay out of my lobby." in post-game chat. Like no #########, what clued you in that I was a "baby Nurse" ? Was it the yellow perk load out (All Ears, Bitter, Surge and Nurses) or the fact I was running her Plaid add-on which allows me to see where and how far I am blinking/teleporting? Or the fact I had no clue how her power worked even on simple loops? Like bro, would you have preferred to get smoked by a 2k hour full-aura nurse who's also slugging for the 4K? ISTG some players will never be happy.
Sorry, didn't mean to unload there. But I absolutely agree that many issues within DbD can be summed up by player toxicity, especially elevated when they've been playing for too many hours without a break or have been on an extended loss streak and they're just carrying over frustration and irritations from past matches. So they finally get an "easy" match and it breaks their brains because now they can finally release that pent-up energy and they, ofc, choose to do so in the most toxic way possible with little to no thought on how their little tantrum affects other players.
So yeah, just like you, I try to play the way I would like to see other killers try to play. Which is nice, chill where we all walk away from the match feeling like the game was tough but fair and with a decent amount of BP. Hopefully with only minor tunnelling and/or proxying (because sometimes that playstyle can't be avoided, no matter how hard you try.)
I feel this so hard, and it actively scares me away from playing stronger Killers. The abuse I get playing as Myers pales in comparison to what I get if I play Cenobite.
They don't even have to be strong, just annoying. I dropped Legion because of the sheer disrespect and hate I got for things like just playing normally trying to Frenzy chain for BP.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790649#Comment_3790649
- The MMR numbers of some of the 5 players in a game, might sometimes be so far apart, that it might be considered unacceptable.
- If 1 player DCs, it might cause the entire game to be considered invalid, and the other players can’t gain or lose MMR in that game. Some people might consider that to be a “worthless game” that’s not worth playing.
- If a player DCs, they might not lose MMR, which means if a player thinks they might lose a game, they can protect their MMR by DCing.
- A 3k and 4k might be worth the same MMR, because BHVR might cause the 4th survivor to be worth 0 MMR.
- If there are generators left to be repaired, and the last survivor escapes through hatch, it’s worth 0 MMR… but if the killer closes hatch and the survivor escapes through a gate, then the killer might lose MMR and the survivor might gain MMR.
- The game might secretly predict if a survivor is trying the ragequit in a way that bypasses the DC penalties, and might do something if it believes a player is ragequitting too often.
- The game might have higher MMR numbers for players when they are in a SWF, if the game believes these players perform better when they are in a SWF.
- There might be a large penalty for the survivor that loses first, and the penalty might be so large that it might cause survivors to start hiding at the beginning of the match so they aren’t found first, if they knew about it.
And no, I’m not interested in you trying to argue on which of the above things might be true. That’s not the point. The point is there are things that would make people upset if they were true and made public, and those are possible things MMR might do, that would make players upset if they knew about it.
Because really, the whole “We don’t want to show MMR because we don’t want to cause players to worry about it” explanation isn’t valid. Many PvP games show MMR, and it’s completely fine.
You make good points and thank you for answering. I will go point by point to dissect this but I am not attacking them; you are under no obligation to defend these, nor is it my intent to argue with you. I just wanted to discuss this because I'm genuinely curious.
- This is probably the case, the game could be hiding this and if so maybe there is a secret adjustment. I'm not sure if that is a bad thing; we do need matchmaking to improve but I think people want quantity over quality. If this is the case, it may be the community's fault for wanting faster games over better games.
- That's problematic and I believe DCing needs harsher penalties. But I also do not think MMR should be gained or lost for anyone if the whole round is invalid; that would mean Killers unfairly win more and Survivors unfairly win less.
- See above. I think that issue would only increase if we could see MMR and that may be why the Devs don't show it - not a nefarious reason at all.
- I'm not sure that's the case, as Killer it seems I necessarily go up slower when I 3k than go on a 4k streak. Rather the game may be taking individual MMR into account and making it so someone with less MMR dying gives no MMR gain, but someone who has a large number and gives up to die gives tons of gain. My fear is if we let others see this MMR, could they not use this to cause issues for others? Maybe the inverse of a "derank squad/Killer" who try to force the other sides' MMR lower on purpose? If so BHVR may be trying to avoid that situation.
- I agree this probably happens and should be addressed.
- I don't see an issue with punishing ragequitters this way if it makes ragequitting less common for the rest of us.
- I also don't see this as that much of an issue. You have a general Killer MMR and individual ones, why wouldn't it make sense you may perform different as SoloQ than SWF and thus have different MMRs between them? It'd make more sense for balance, though it probably doesn't feel great if the game thinks you're crap at SoloQ and gives you bad teammates.
- I'm not sure where this idea comes from, or why that would ever be useful to gauge MMR. I doubt BHVR would do this.
I do get your point and do understand. I just think that this community is so volatile that even if we saw MMRs, people would find SOMETHING to complain about with them and see perceived sleights from the Devs that just aren't happening period no matter what. I don't think showing MMR would fix it.
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@WolfyWood said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790662#Comment_3790662
But if I said I have fun losing on killer and I think killers should just enjoy the chase and playing a scary character even if theyre weak I'd be crazy right?
Acting like people are unreasonable for wanting to win without every match being a slog makes no sense.
The problem there is that if you change it for stronger Killers to feel challenged it's impossible for weaker ones, and if you change it for weaker ones the stronger ones just stomp. This isn't 1 to 1. It isn't the same issue.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790643#Comment_3790643
I’m glad you brought this up because I have definitely seen Ghostface in comp games. And he was holding his own too. People sleep on a killer that can insta-expose survivors. A lot of killer mains think if a killer requires any sort of skill or finesse (like Ghostface) and can’t bulldoze through survivors (like Nurse, Hillbilly, Blight, Wesker, Spirit, etc) they aren’t strong. But it’s not true.
Oh my goodness I feel seen. 😊I have told people in this community time and time again that Ghostface is a decent Killer, and pretty strong played well. But because you don't play him like a "bulldozer" Killer as you described, people write him off. IMHO if someone calls Ghostface "too weak to be viable", it leads me to think maybe they are just bad at M1 chase, Killers that don't have super strong M2s, or stealth games. Because a good Ghostface really can be super tough to deal with, since with a good one chases never begin to start with and the one thing that Survs have against M1s thus goes out the window. You can't really run from a Killer that can't be found easily (people sleep on there being no/low TR so hard) AND is able to one-tap you in half a second before you can react.
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@BrightWolf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3789868#Comment_3789868
Which is when you get M1 killers running quad slow-down and slugging just to get an edge on the 4-man with toolboxes or some other annoying meta build. Which then ofc, leads to strong killer like Nurse, Blight, Huntress etc running full-aura or quad-slowdown, not because they need to, but because they want to.
which then feeds into people not wanting to play SoloQ, so they start pairing up with friends on coms and the whole cycle repeats itself.It really is a vicious cycle and I don't know how we're supposed to fix it. :(
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790845#Comment_3790845
You got it mostly right. But you are missing where BHVR has directly caused this. Yes the problem is the overall sweatiness of the game has gone up. But why?
A combination of 3 factors. SBMM, kills = skills and optimizing the fun out of the game.
SBMM
Skill based matchmaking, by design, creates a situation where the system itself is striving to create a 50% win rate for everyone by creating "equal" matches. What this creates is a situation where every time you win, by definition, your next match will in theory be more difficult.
But, couple this with a game like DBD which has so much randomness and RNG it's almost impossible to properly match people skillfully. Personally I hate SBMM in general. I miss the days of the CoD lobby where you could goof around and "rank" was only about your prestige which was more about how much you played rather than how well you played. Winning only got you that prestige faster, you'd still eventually get it. Anyway that's a different topic.
The point is the system by design means that every game you play, because the other side is again, in theory, equally skilled to you, you must always play at the top of your game. And we know what the "top of your game" translates to in DBD land. It translates to playing in the most unfun ways possible.
KILLS = SKILLS
This brings me to my next point of BHVR balancing such a system on the idea that kills and escapes are what matter, and completely ignoring all the other factors. Survivor is a team game, so if you spend 5 gens running the killer and your 3 teammates get out but the killer has noed and rancor and kills you, it counts as a loss for you. This creates an environment of selfishness on the survivor side.
On the killer side, it creates an incentive of focusing only on kills and forgoing everything else.
For both sides this means that the most efficient way to win is for survivors to slam gens as fast as possible and for killer to hard tunnel someone out as fast as possible. There are other subtle things that can happen like slugging and such. But the point is that for both sides to play effectively they also must play the least fun way possible for all the players in the game.
OPTIMIZING THE FUN OUT OF THE GAME
This leads to the final point, optimization. Players will always optimize the fun out of your game. This is why you as a developer always want to strive for the most effective way to play your game to also be the most FUN way to play the game.
The devs need to rebalance the game around Chases and survivor/killer interaction and matchmake and count wins and losses as something other than just kills and escapes. The problem is both sides are put into this sandbox with an objective that is entirely divorced from the activity that creates the most fun for everyone, which leads to everything being so boring because it's so optimized.
BRINGING IT TOGETHER
In short. Yes. It is the community, but the devs bear the brunt of the responsibility still. They created an environment through SBMM that is focused only on kills and escapes in an environment where kills and escapes are not the end result of the most fun part of the game and the "fun" can be entirely absent and you still complete that objective.
The solution to this problem would be to do one or more of the following:
- Rebalance the game around hooks and chases instead of kills. (I always liked tru3ta1ents idea around creating a "hope" mechanic that the goal of the killer is to fill by doing the things that are fun instead of going for kills and base wins/losses for both sides on that bar. Fits the lore better too)
- Have SMBM also care about HOW you got those kills and escapes and having an 8 hook 4 man out still count as a win for the killer or a 3 man out still count as a win for the dead survivor.
- Ironically, Bring back the emblem system that used to determine wins and losses by you doing multiple things rather than focusing on that singular outcome.
- Remove SBMM entirely and let people get matched based on ranks again, things will still be sweaty for a little while but it will start to calm down eventually.
You're very correct on all of this, and said it better than I could. The game is too sweaty partly because BHVR's past decisions made it so, and it is my hope they will start fixing that in the ways you said. How?
- Fix SBMM to feel more fair - if you 0k/die, you should lose one "SBMM Unit", if you 4k/escape, you should win one "SBMM Unit". Winning more or less shouldn't be weighted more. To keep it fair, it needs to be one to one. I'm not sure why it's so hard to escape sweat city when you find yourself in it.
- Make "doing enough" count, as you said - In my opinion getting at least 20k points should always be considered a pip or win. Both sides. You can rebalance the emblems around hooks and doing gens/chases, or make doing stuff give more points. You can also make it so if say… the Killer never gets enough hooks, or Survivors don't get to do anything at all, you automatically lose and do not pip. Incentivize making the game go longer and making people do more than just kills and gens. I ironically think the Finisher Mori, if expanded, could help with this by having an alternate goal to go for on Killer - Moris over Hooks.
- Rebalancing the fun factor - you said everything I would have. I think we should buff a bunch of weaker perks, and limit the effectiveness of overly strong ones. But these changes need to happen at the same time as the other stuff. Now, I think BHVR is trying, slowly, to do that and it's working - I have played more both sides this year than I did all of last year where the game felt so bad as Killer and easy as Surv, I actually quit Killer and then Surv for three months. But there is a long way to go yet.
Overall I think things like hiding grades, hiding prestiges, having easier challenges, modes, a different queue where MMR is ONLY used to generically match-make but not gained/lost and you can learn with ease, and other minor changes basekit have really helped improve the game. At the least, it feels like Killers are a threat again. But to make that feel good for Survivor, we need to now focus on stuff that feels fun for Survivor. What do Survivors like? Chases. Shenanigans. Doing sick saves. Feeling like they got out by the skin of their teeth. If we can bring that adrenaline back without making it so easy to consistently escape too much, making Survs like me wonder "will I make it out alive against this Trapper/Ghostface/Demogorgon/Slinger?" instead of "why am I losing to this Trapper/Ghostface/Demogorgon/Slinger I am doing everything right, he's not good he's just [insert tactic Survivors dislike here]", I think people will like Survivor more.
Or at least give Survs as many BP per round as Killer. No excuses.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
Hey, you know, maybe if slugging takes off it'll finally kill off the pop+pain res meta that's existed for basically 3 years or so now. But I doubt that'll happen.
I think once killers realize they aren't getting their precious regression from hooking this problem will solve itself.
I really don't know if you understand the ramifications of that. I would much rather lose a bunch of progress on a gen I just did (and still be able to play the game), than sit on the ground for four minutes. As annoying as it is, Pop + Pain Res is way, way healthier for the game than slugging being strong.
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@ranbuta said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790845#Comment_3790845
Yes, you are right, I feel that there are so many more players who want to win more than have fun.
With a very small percentage of toxic survivors, I sometimes put winning first to keep them from T-bagging.The game is still healthy if the killer is best used to hook to win. However, if it is best to slagging it is quite unhealthy. I would like to see BHVR change that.
But your idea is also very good. If this game could be more casual and fun, there might not be so much slagging.This may be a language barrier or mistranslation here, but it looks like you're saying there are few Survivors that ARE toxic. There are actually just as many toxic Survivors as there are toxic Killers, most Killers just want to play the game the same as Survivors. Killer toxicity comes from frustration with Survivors being toxic, and Survivor toxicity comes from frustration with Killers being toxic. If anything, the chance of seeing a toxic Survivor may be higher, because there are four times as many of them as Killers in a round. So while you see toxic Survivors more often, Killer toxicity feels worse because you can't do anything about it.
If that wasn't what you meant, I apologize. :)
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3735324#Comment_3735324
Just like DH … or DS … or UB … or a Flashlight from a weird angle. Strangely enough not Head On or Blastmine, this two perks, while doing essentially the same, need more setup and you feel like actually stepping into a trap instead of just getting hit by an unavoidable BS.
I agree with you but the only issue I have with Blast Mine, or had, was that it lasted too long and the Killer was unfairly punished for doing their objective of simply kicking. It made kicking gens a total liability in games and now with its smaller timer with less gen progression needed, it doesn't have that issue. I would have been fine with it as is though, if it simply showed the mine on the generator or gave the Killer SOME tell so they could avoid the mine and it really WOULD be like stepping into a trap, instead of a tool used to a) annoy the Killer, b) do blind challenges, c) make the Killer second-guess doing basic tasks like kicking generators at all.
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This has been the case on the American servers for years, and probably the EU ones too. It's unfortunately not new, it's just a consequence of the game changing slowly.
It's not "bad Killers", it's not problems BHVR created, it's none of that. No matter what anyone says, it's not ANY of that. It's the fact that this community has turned this simple little tag casual game with competitive elements, and made it into a super comp e-sport, and used that to create divisive us vs. them rhetoric, toxicity, and bred such distrust of the other side that it's entrenched now. The need to win on both sides outweighs the need to have fun, and despite what BHVR tries it's probably not going to go away quickly, if at all.
Unfortunately, people like the commenter above show EXACTLY this issue I am talking about. We see it on the forums every day. There is SO MUCH loathing of the other side simply wanting to play the game as intended, everyone goes "I don't like that the other side can win. Better sweat, because I want to win." Which then makes THAT side sweat, in this case, when slugging happens Survivors sweat more with stronger genrush perks, and that makes Killers not even slugging sweat even more. It's a vicious cycle and it will continue until we all funally agree to a ceasefire and just… stop trying to win so friggin' hard every. Single. Game.
BHVR can help by disincentivizing sweating for 4 man outs and 4ks. Reworking the emblem system. Making pips trivial so people feel like they are hitting a goal, but not having to GRIND for that goal by playing in an unfun way. Grades and Emblems need looking at again. BP gains across the board should be equal on both sides. And MMR gains and losses need to occur at a 1 to 1 rate, not this "you gain faster than you lose" crud that creates the very arguments people are having.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790621#Comment_3790621
Thx.
A few weeks (months?) back a community manager asked here in the forums on how they could tackle the unpleasant ingame mindset.
I seriously hope that they start loooking into this. Its pushing more people away from their game than some of the balance updates.
I think they are making steps in the right direction by making it more about just trying to have fun and less about comp. The outcry people are having about how "easy" the game is for various sides right now is a form of extinction event, which is what happens when old habits die out - they go through an increased burst of the bad behavior happening before it settles. The longer the habit has been entrenched the more drawn out it is.
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@Toystory3Monkey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790645#Comment_3790645
yeah, though he's played on only one map with heavy restrictions for survivors. and even so he struggles. so that says something.
I suppose the difference then is the skill with which the Ghostie plays, not his kit.
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@WolfyWood said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3789859#Comment_3789859
So what part or the game is supposed to be fun for the survivor in your opinion?
The part where you play with your friends and it's actually a challenge to work as a team and win instead of being able to slap on 16 perks that all boost each other and easily four man out. I still have fun doing this even losing a bunch more as Survivor. Why do you and others need to win consistently to have fun? Or is this about BP gain, a totally separate issue altogether?
I want to be challenged as Survivor. I like hard games. It's sad to me that other Survivors do not.
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790084#Comment_3790084
Matchmaking. A Ghostface who is much better than the survivors would still easily win.
I would not bother with this person they seem really entitled and overly comp-minded. Anything less than an S tier may as well not exist to them…
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It's also causing severe GPU usage and it's causing sudden game crashes.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3789720#Comment_3789720
My whole point was that the only valid reason for hiding MMR is if it’s doing something very controversial, that would be made public if everyone could see MMR.
Which is a problem, because it assumes BHVR is purposely hiding something for us, that they know we wouldn’t like. It’s kind of like how the forced short M1 attack bug, that can steal hits from the killer, is purposely not being acknowledged… even though there’s actual proof the game is forcing short m1 attacks as part of proximity checks, that are completely separate from the hit validation checks.
I get what you are saying Coffeecrashing but my question is what nefarious thing you believe BHVR might hide by not letting people see MMR. What is is you think they're doing with MMR that is so controversial? That's what I am curious about.
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@LapisInfernalis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3787753#Comment_3787753
I have seen P100s who looped really badly and P3s who looped like Gods.
It's dumb to judge skill by prestige.
I agree, this is why I am glad for the lack of them in lobbies.
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Before it died, there were several rounds where Ghostface was featured in Outrun The Fog, Brimp. Your statement is simply incorrect that Ghostface has never been used in Comp, he's considered a Low Tier comp Killer. MYERS, however, is never actually used in Comp. Ghostface definitely is and a simple Youtube search would show you plenty of footage of people like Team Eternal even playing him in comp rounds.
But you clearly don't play Ghostface or think this Killer is worth anything to the game, you seem to only care if the Killer can dominate in a 4k every single round. So please kindly do not speak about Killers you do not play. :) I am glad Blight is treating you well.
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Dredge is spooky now and I am a happy Locker Turkey. c:
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I think you need a break, friend.
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Massive GPU usage that means I have had to completely rejigger OBS to even capture footage and I am forced to play on Low if I want to record. Random crashes multiple times. Slow startup and loading time when the game is launched.
They need to reoptimize the graphical use again.
Oh and Bots are somehow revealing Ghostface from well across the maps again, and have even better wallhacks than before, and are ignoring Undetectable.
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People who are actually this toxic over a video game are pathetic and need to be banned from all games. Forever. They can go play Hello Kitty Island or something, I guess.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3789880#Comment_3789880
They’re at 48%. Which means killers are at 52%. Which means killers at the tippy top of MMR are still winning more than survivors at the tippy top of MMR.
You do realize that's effectively 50/50??? And you do realize that you're assuming I am worse than I am?
This is what I do not get about the posts on this forum or the rhetoric in this community, time and again, and it's something I see you particularly do a lot. I don't get it about ANYONE with similar opinions here, but you're one of the biggest examples. It's literally every other post with you and it's dismissive. Do you know how well I or anyone else performs at the game, have you seen my gameplay results? If not you really can't comment. I don't need bones thrown at me from elitists who have played for 10k hours, all I and other newcomers need is our perspective acknowledged and my experience to be seen as just as valid and equal as yours.
Not everyone has a 75%+ winstreak in the game. I don't think most people do. Most everyone is at that 60/40 split and that's fine, it doesn't mean one side is overpowered and the other isn't. That too is just another lie and conspiracy theory, to use your direct words, concocted to make people feel better about game balance not being in their favor any more. Literally everyone playing is mid except for a handful of players like Hens and the very babiest players. There are real issues that truly do affect the mid MMR experience and they need adjustment. When you say "no it's no issue, it's just because you're bad/boosted yourself", you're effectively denying and invalidating the experience of tons and tons of players, which makes people who have joined the game in the past 3 years like me feel unwelcome and unwanted.
It's time for the big boys who have been here since year one to start accepting and validating people who are newer, without the patronizing statements.
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We have a big perk shakeup coming this Fall, just wait for it. It's also pretty normal to have lulls between events/modes.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790249#Comment_3790249
As a pig main, i know exactly what you are talking about. I often have the feeling that people in this game, regardless of which role they play, become literally evil towards everything they deem "worse". Lower tier killer? Lets be extra rude because they lack the options to do anything about it. Lower hour survivor? Lets tunnel them out asap. No meta perks? Your getting bullied friend.
That has nothing to do with the game itself other than that the perks are availible. However, if certain perks or playstyles are nerfed, others will rise to take their place. This is truly a problem with the playerbase itself.
This is the philosophy i try to follow: treat others the way you want to be treated. Does not only work wonders in real life, but also in game. You dont have to make your opponents experience amazing, however, you dont have to make it as miserable as possible either.
You are a Light in the Fog. Please never change.
I agree the worst part of the game isn't the game. It's the playerbase. It's 100% the playerbase. Maybe we need more consequences for this sort of behavior. Maybe we need a system of reporting players who deliberately single out and harass or bully others. IDK. IDK what BHVR can do that wouldn't be abused.
It stems from entrenched entitlement. That's it. That's all. There's even some people on these forums way, way too comfortable with saying things like "oh you're just bad, that's why you think X is a problem." No. A problem is a problem and hw good someone may or may not be has no bearing on if that thing's an issue or not. It will still be an issue if you are good, you just know how to deal with it more and expect it.
OP I think you have hit the softcap and that is why this is happening. You struggle because you tried too hard to be too successful too much, by wanting to not just win but DOMINATE above all else. It happens to everyone eventually.
I suggest taking a long long break.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790292#Comment_3790292
GoJ was changed some not long ago and Haddonfield was nerfed quite recently too. Not sure what they can do to Gideon. It doesn’t have any windows so it needs the pallets.
But does it need THIS MANY pallets? And does it really need two God Pallets outside the Basement entrance? And does it need the same layout every time? And could we not have the structures always predictably spawn the same loops so that the same broken paths are always usable every time? And couldn't we address generator and hook spreads? And could totem spawns be more consistent and harder to find?
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@cruelb said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3788834#Comment_3788834
It's very easy to gen rush without a toolbox. Plus, killers have aura… so I think we're pretty much even ;)
I don't see how aura is the same as generator progression and therefore "even"… Also sure, you can genrush without a toolbox. Without perks even.
But toolboxes are the only thing that make it OVERLY easy, which is the issue. Because they stack with perks and Survivor tactics in ways that can sometimes become too strong.
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We don't need one, we have AFC and 70 second hooks now.
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Again you assume I do not know how to play this game because I am newer to it. I have been playing for two years. I win most of my Killer Matches. I escape a good deal of my Survivor matches. I have played enough to be decent at both. Sorry I am not high MMR like you, I guess?
Your responses smack of entitlism just because you've been here for years more than I have. Please do not respond to me again, because you're right on one thing, ppmd - your response to me here was absolutely petty and absolutely unnecessary. Not to mention incredibly unwelcoming.
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Unfortunately I experience this so often in SoloQ as a Surv that likes stealthier playstyles (I am helping the team, I am just not a front and center chaser - I basically, play support), I no longer play SoloQ at all if I can help it. SWF with at least one other person only.
I never get that angry at the Killer (though sometimes I verbally salt, I understand why Killers do things like slug or camp or hover around some areas), I'm always much more angry at SoloQ Randoms. It's the one thing in this game that makes me wanna quit the game sometimes - well that and the occasional group of Survivors that just won't let my Killer play the game.
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I don't see any us vs. them, just a description of why matchmaking screws everyone over. It's messy and needs a reworking or some sort of working over, at least.
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I think this should be the rework or part of it:
- Tier 1 begins you as a 110% Killer with normal lunge and vault. You are Undetectable. You don't regain this state when you Tier up to Tier 2.
- Tier 2 makes you 115% and gives you a quicker pallet break speed. No Vault increase. You can hold in this state indefinitely if you want.
- Tier 3 allows you to walk through pallets and walls to break them, and gives you the longer lunge and vault speed. It also gives 5% haste for 60 seconds. You can 99 Tier 3 and use it as needed. You can Mori the Obsession basekit in this state, but only if they are Death Hook and this ONLY applies to the Obsession.
- You cannot run out of stalk, on anyone. You always have access to stalk juice.
- Tombstone addons are changed and now extend the duration of Tier 3. Tombstone Piece makes it permanent until you Down someone, then it drains you back to Tier 2 and you need to gain it again. Tombstone does not extend Tier 3 to start, but is now an endgame addon like Dracula's shield addon that immediately sets you to Tier III when the Exit gates are powered for the duration of the endgame.
- When you Mori, you can grab people out of lockers, off gens, off chests. etc., but not off of hooks.
I feel like some of these even would be a big improvement. Make Tiering Up allow for more of a risk and raised stakes just like in the films.
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Bat has the same issue as Dredge had, the squeaking is way way to loud to hear Survivors over. It's also got the issue of being a bit wobbly and frustrating in indoor maps, you may as well never use it in indoor maps. Just fix a bit of that.
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It doesn't seem to have changed my games too much but I am seeing more tunneling.
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@ChaosWam said:
In my opinion one of three things should be considered.
- Nerf repair speed on toolboxes a smidge. Not too much as to cripple them, but not too little. Maybe reconsider how quick gens get repaired when done with multiple people as well.
- Make base kicking gens a little stronger. We had the buff, but it honestly doesn't feel like it does anything. I'd even accept other regression perk nerfs if the base kick were better so we don't have to feel we rely on constant regression.
- Put a cap on progression/regression speeds and %'s.
I agree with these ideas but:
- The only one that would fix the problem in the short term,
- They already did? I'm not sure how much more they can do,
- I think this could also work and me more long term.