Gandor
Gandor
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@ReikoMori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3492441#Comment_3492441
You're literally sitting there trying to classify her design as a bug when it most definitely isn't a bug. It's bad design, but it isn't a bug for better or worse it was intentional and intended. Like her kit didn't just materialize and have a bad reaction at random that folks are exploiting. Skull Merchant's kit went through both internal and public testing, there very little chance that the possibility of this being the way she was going to be played was unknown at the internal stage. At the public testing stage WE KNOW for a fact that everyone and their mother demonstrated how effectively she could hold a 3 gen and how terrible she is comparatively at anything else.
It is not bug, it is intended design are worst and at best it is just gross underestimation of either players' desire to push the limit of what was shown to be possible or the limitations of the design itself. This is nothing like Sky Billy or Space Billy which were actually bugs that just happened to be fun and harmless. Billy turning into Elton John's Rocket Man was never intended design in any way where as Merchant just playing around holding a 3 gen with her highly territorial area denial power is exactly intentional. The unintended part is the lengths to which people have gone to hold a 3 gen for the maximum allowable amount of game time.
Other killers can most certainly come to achieving the same feat with the right perks and depending on the killer right addons. It takes much more work and is less consistent overall as you'd need to account for the use of specific maps, but it is possible. If you look back at DBD's past Doc actually held games hostage for far longer than Skull Merchant ever could purely due to the games didn't timeout during the peak of hostage Doc. Forever Fredboi was notorious about drawing games out to insanely long degrees and didn't get hard disabled for doing the vast majority of time he had his original power set. Legion in the past actually drew games out to huge degree due to how mending and deep wounds used to work on top of having bugged addons that made mending essentially impossible. They can't just make you have an infinite mending issue anymore, but they can just keep wounding and kicking with their most recent addon pass giving them buffs to damage actions while in frenzy.
3 genning as a strat has been in the game for years because it has been in the game since day one. Most killers just weren't built to take advantage of it and perk support to make hard 3 genning didn't come till later. The biggest issue with 3 genning isn't the killer it's the way gen spawns are handled! It's a years old issue that killers outside of Skull Merchant have been able to weaponize to varying degrees based on their personal kits and perk support available at the time. Killswitching Skull Merchant does not change that fact.
You either don't know enough about the history of this game or you're so extremely biased that you beyond incapable of being reasonable..
You are still missing the point. It's huge difference if "forever Freddy" was able to stall the game. It's very much different when OG ruin with OG undying prolonged the game by insane amount (you had to possibly get rid of up to 5 totems or you had to reliably hit great skillchecks). It's entirely different that doctor had a build that made skillchecks super hard for some people. These are all just "broken OP" things. It's just not the same. None of these and none other then SM can force the game be so long, that the server just shuts down. That's unique just for SM and her alone. That's why she and only she breaks the game. That's why she and only she needs to be killswitched. None of your previous examples were able to hold the game forever (and also - server shutdown was possible even before - it's that the time to shutdown got changed to 1 hour. But you could have done that for a long time - and some survivors were indeed abusing it - that's why crows when not doing anything was implemented).
So again. She is the only one that can abuse (and was able to abuse - again - not counting knight on certain map for a brief period of time) server shutdown feature that was ABSOLUTELY not intended as a win-condition. So she is the only killer in whole game that warrants killswitch. No other killer can do that. Not even OG legion (which BTW had issue with no counterplay to him stabbing you in ability - instead of not being able to progress gens). It's just SM and her alone
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@ReikoMori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3492345#Comment_3492345
You're making a heavy amount of assumptions, but it all comes down to the last thing I said: Just because people do not like something doesn't mean that it warrants a killswitch. A killer being able to extend the length of a game by an excessive amount is not unique to Skull Merchant, it is a years old issue this game has had. Killswitching Skull Merchant for an undefined length of time until they get around to reworking her is not a viable solution. It makes absolutely zero sense when the killer is more or less functioning as intended. She's not breaking the game or exploiting a bug, she's just being played in the way that gives her the most use of her power as it exists currently.
She's not getting killswitched no matter how much folks desire that just for being a killer that can use the 3 gen strat to lengthen games. Every killer can do it to a varying degrees and to killswitch a killer simply because they can do it more consistently is nonsense.
None of the previous killers (except knight which resulted in rather prompt change to perks) were able to hold the game until server shut down. Meaning none of the previous killers were EVER a problem. So no. It wasn't here for a years - skull merchant is not in a game for years. The shutdown mechanics (and it's shortened time to 1 hour instead) was meant as a bandaid fix for cheaters holding players (especially streamers) hostage. It was never meant to be "legit tactics". Her design is so flawed, that people abuse this design bug into server shutdown. A very much unintended win condition (that is not reversed against killer just because survivors can hide for an hour to create same issue).
This is not about "not liking". It's about (design) bug abuse that is actively being abused. That warrants killswitch - a feature that was specifically designed to turn off parts of the game that are broken so they are not being abused.
Also - killer is NOT functioning as intended. 1 hour long win-condition is absolutely not intended gameplay. It's (design) BUG ABUSE. It's the same thing as people trying to defend sky Billy (except, that bug was fun and hilarious). It's clearly a bug that wasn't intended. It doesn't matter that it was using his power to the fullest. It was still a bug. And it still got patched (there was no killswitch at that time).
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3492379#Comment_3492379
I just dont believe you, I played Killer ever since DS was introduced. Ever since that time it has been run on a person that tries to get in the Killer's way. To stop me from doing my job. Now that the person using DS cant help their team without canceling DS they dont use it. Simple as. I am not blind to whats been happening in my matches. And the reduced time mean they cant use it to trick you into being stunned for 8 seconds with Head on.
Once bHVR cleaned up the perk, they all dropped it. I have seen it with my own eyes.
Well. You clearly play just one side then.
I play both sides and I see that a, using DS does not help anything, because those 10s that it can possibly prolong chase are insignificant and hard tunneler will just not mind it at all
b, people indeed stopped abusing it. But let's be honest. DS into headon was VERY rare already. It was like 1 in 100 games or even less. Most people didn't even had a chance to use the perk against me, because I generally don't tunnel so the perk rarely did anything (but sure enough, from time to time it was used aggresively) - if you were able to guess, then that was also free pressure (1 less person on a gen and 1 person that needed to pick up DS abuser).
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3492370#Comment_3492370
That does not say much, there are many perks that have bad activation requirements, would not be the first time a perk isnt valuable in a match. If a player makes the choice that they don't need help with tunneling at all, then that's their choice.
I dont know why you bring your grievances with the perk being imperfect to me, you wont get a perk that always gives you value and I would never agree to that.
That said, Im not against a power cooldown to make it more viable against certain Killers.
The problem that DS was feared is because people have stopped using it, the changes were marginal, they just stopped making it easy to abuse and then everyone dropped it like candywrapper.
All I am saying is, that THIS IS NOT TRUE. People stopped using it, because the perk is now really bad at it's only job. It's very conditional and even if stars align, it still provides very little value. The perk should be either very conditional (like adrenaline) or it should provide you little value (like bond). Or some mix of those 2. It should never be weak AND conditional. Otherwise you are asking for more "Red herring" or "Territorial imperative" perks...
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OP's suggestion is just bad - it's too much progression for not progressing.
But if the perk was allowed to get say 90 tokens, it could be high risk, but potentially high reward (in 4-gen, you work on that last gen killer is ignoring for freaking 2mins 15s just to carefully come to a gen and fix it immediately). That would be niche-useful perk just against 3gens.
Alternative would be to make it safer gen transfer by removing token loss altogether (or make the progression 1 to 1).
In both alternatives - the perk will have some niche and would be useful at least sometimes. As it stands, it's never useful and always helps only a killer.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3492350#Comment_3492350
I can't? Of course I can, it I want to.
I can simply focus on mending anyone who gets near gen to get same effect as merchant.
Wesker, Wraith can do same thing.
Issue is that skull merchant has problem to actually end the game. All of those can easily hold 3-gen to win, but they are going to actually down survivors because of it.
Legion used to have exactly same issue, that's why they made it, so they can down survivors with his power.
Merchant doesn't do that, because she can't really. She is M1 killer only, unless she goes double purple add-ons, but those won't really hold 3-gen.
They figured out counterplay against it and it's same as Legion. Just stay injured.
Which is even easier with MFT, resilience meta...
Sorry, but I have yet to see a game where there are 4 live survivors that can't fix all the gens in 30+ minutes (counting all the killers you mentioned). Provided we are not talking about skull merchant. Like sure - there's knight that can come semi-close to it, but he's still weak in comparison.
Huge difference is, that you can actually dodge legion's hit (FoV tech, pallet, locker, 360, etc) or even if you don't you can still fix the gen while being injured and for some time also while mending. You can also hide next to gen while legion is not in frenzy and so on. His kit is just bad in comparison to SM in holding 3gen. Like he can postpone the game, but not keep the gens at 0...
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3492363#Comment_3492363
10 seconds is fine, like you already lost a chase and you got another chance for free.
How much value do you think you deserve from one perk slot?
10s is upper bound. For a perk that can do exactly nothing in game. Is useless against high-tier killers. And at reasonable best buys 10s. Also it's a perk that's a bandaid for tunneling - and at best it still just buys you those 10s. But it doesn't matter if killer decides to tunnel anyone else from your team instead. So it's very likely it does nothing in whole game.
Nope. That doesn't sound like reasonable perk.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3492351#Comment_3492351
lol Sure, if you dont try to confuse the Killer and run in a straight line then the Perk is bad. LMAO.
Do the same test in a normal game Please
I did. The perk almost always buys like 5-10s at most. The best thing how to utilize it is actually just as a bleedout reset thingy - in this case if I actually eat DH, then it provided some value. Meaning the perk IS TRASH. It can't do anything reasonable on it's own. You need 2 perks that are both suboptimal now to get any value. And THAT is the reason why people don't bring it (not as you said that there's minor inconvenience).
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@appleas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3492293#Comment_3492293
Perhaps you would care to inform the devs of SM’s bugs so that they can fix her earlier? I didn’t know SM had bugs that made her broken like Wesker becoming invisible just before the anniversary event.
Please enlighten me.
Devs know about those DESIGN bugs for quite a long time. It was mentioned in PTB too. They even (insufficiently) addressed it. But it wasn't such a huge problem until this video dropped and people started to abuse it.
Her DESIGN bugs warrant killswitch at this time. Those design bugs ARE being exploited now
@Feneroe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3492317#Comment_3492317
It's not a bug. Her power is meant to guard areas, including gens. They just failed to account for their poor map design and generator spawns. A bug would be if it a drone being near a generator made it so survivors lost the ability to interact with the generator or drone, or if her insidious effect from being in an active drone area never went away.
It IS bug. Same as RPD having map design bug that allowed you to escape map, go from outside and get to exit without opening exit gate. There was no improper movement or anything. Just a part of map that shouldn't have ever spawned and that made it possible to go outside. A mistake in design. Yet the map was killswitched, because it ruined the game. This is EXACTLY the same thing. SM is ruining the game (in a same way - survivors could also decide to not abuse that design bug, SM can also chase people and not just kick gens and hold her 3gen).
And it is the same thing, because survivor getting outside of the map is as much not intended as SM being able to hold the game until servers shut down. Same thing
@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3492317#Comment_3492317
Well, you clearly don't.
All things that allow this work as intended.
Which mechanic doesn't work as intended here?
Dropping survivor to give wiggle progress?
Perk that makes gens harder to complete?
It's not about features, they work as intended. It's about players. If I want other side to suffer, I will be able to do it on both sides.
Is head-on supposed to be kill switched, because you have groups ignoring gens and just staying in area with many lockers?
No, it's not about perk. It's about players.
If you want you can use new perk from Cage and bleed out somewhere in corner of the map...
Or all survivors stay injured and swarm gens. She can't stop all of you like this.
You can break it....
As we have seen in video - no you can't if you are soloQ (meaning you don't have perfect coordination or can't hit every super-hard skillcheck reliably).
Also she actually threatens people to either bring BNP's or suffer. I don't think that's healthy design - but this is "just about game health"
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3492049#Comment_3492049
What video of Otz is that?
Then people will stop making sooooo many threads saying tunneling is rampart and there's no real protection against it.
I doubt this claim.
I doubt this claim.
There's very clear spike of threads about need to buff DS from patch 6.1 saying how tunneling is THE problem in the game. Some threads don't mention DS, but still talk about tunneling - way more then before this patch. That's the proof of the claim.
What video of Otz is that?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v50MggXgOks -
@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3491523#Comment_3491523
She is quite fun to play as, if you like M1 killers.
She has many similar aspects to Legion imo. I enjoy both.
People should really learn what hold the game hostage means...
Legion is perfectly fine. You can't have 30 mins game against him if you are actually trying.
I just can't say the same tging about SM. She is one huge problem right now
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@ReikoMori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3492040#Comment_3492040
Not all killers have a 10% DC rate and I highly doubt Skull Merchant for as much as people hate playing against her even has a 40% DC rate. Though that isn't really the point, the point is that context matters which you pointed out and while you can and sometimes will have to infer context you shouldn't make a nuclear option decision based solely on inferred context. There is no way to tell the difference between DCs in terms of context and you could infer many other reasons that as plausible. It's just a bad metric to use especially in this game where DCs are just as likely to due to people having performance issues or throwing their toys outta the pram over getting downed first.
We can safely say that Skull Merchant doesn't have anywhere near 50% first hook deaths as if that was true, that would be something they would probably inform folks of since that is insane rate. Now that said, again context matters. Did they die on first hook because on purpose or did they die due to not being saved? If they died on purpose was it purely because it was a Skull Merchant? This stat can't even have like a worthwhile inference made into its context because even if there is higher than normal rate you have literally no way to know what the situation is other than it was a game that featured Skull Merchant.
You want them to do a data study of people's playing habits, specifically last time they played and against what killer then from that astronomical data set you want them to parse the games that featured Skull Merchant and then further parse if players that didn't log back in again. Alright, cool let's run with that. What's the context? What can you infer from this metric? How do you expect the devs to know why someone hasn't logged back in with just this set of data? How do you actually attribute the reasoning to it having to have been Skull Merchant that made them stop playing specifically? It just as easily could be that they are fed up with the game as a whole and Merchant was the last killer they faced. Could be they had life stuff that got in the way of playing. Could just be taking a break or they switched to a new platform and are actually still playing the game just under a different username. It could literally be anything, but yet let's killswitch Merchant. That'll bring the folks right back to game.
Bloodlodge and Haddonfield for that matter were killswitched because on top of being bugged they were also slated to receive changes anyway. So it just made sense to leave killswitched since the changes and bugfixes were gonna go hand in hand anyway. Skull Merchant may be extremely annoying when using the 3 gen strat, but she isn't bugged in a way that necessitates being killswitched. Just because people don't like a playstyle choice doesn't mean it should be killswitched.
Be reasonable.
If people dc on average in X amount and against specific killer X times 4 amount, you can be sure there's something specific to the killer that makes people DC that much more specifically on that killer.
Same goes for last game and same goes for dying on first hook.
You can expect that people will actually complain about the reason why this abnormality happens (say if she had game-breaking bug that kicks players from game, you would see many posts about it). And this is in fact already true - see the sheer number of threads about deleting/changing the killer with so many replies (like this one).
There's just no other viable explenation why would people DC more against her (random chance would be so astronomically improbable, that you can win lottery much easier), then what you can see in all these threads - that she prolongs the game by insane amount. Just show me 1 other plausible explenation that would explain it considering all the feedback that is given. But you can't. Because there needs to be reason why it's always SM that has so many DC's instead of say Billy - or Knight for that matter. There's no other feedback then people saying she is insufferable.
Killswitch under these conditions makes perfect sense - the killer is doing more harm (to whole survivor population), then good (to a few killer mains that enjoy her). This is perfectly reasonable response to the issue at hand - limit the damage to the game
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@Emeal said:
Killers wont tunnel less even if you add two extra seconds. The problem that DS was feared is because people have stopped using it, the changes were marginal, they just stopped making it easy to abuse and then everyone dropped it like candywrapper. If everybody started using it again, then it would be feared maybe. But being not abusable and survivors thinking they are smart enough to outloop the Killer, this is what you get.
Also, if you add 2 seconds the Perk is abusable with Head On again. Allowing 7 to 8 seconds stuns. even worse with the perks we get tomorrow.
Right after nerf Otz made a video. Almost all killers were able to redown survivor in 5s after the stun. DS is a joke now. That's why people don't bring it.
Remove drop animation so you have indeed 3s head start instead of effectively 1.8s and people will use it again. Or prolong duration back to 5s. Or give survivors 150% movement sprint for 3s (which means 1.8s).
Then people will stop making sooooo many threads saying tunneling is rampart and there's no real protection against it.
I mean - it's sad that the strategy needs perk to have at least somewhat useable counter - so devs solved it by removing counter in perk form and called it a day (and surprise surprise - tunneling is suddenly at all-time-high).
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@ReikoMori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3491617#Comment_3491617
The game can't distinguish between a suicide and fair hook so that is a useless thing to look at.
DC's are such a rampant issue no matter what killer is played and again the game can't determine reason for a DC only that it happened which makes it useless to look at as well. There is a reason why people constantly complain the devs making decisions based on stat lines and you're asking them to do that very thing.
How does one determine the exact reason why someone stopped playing DBD? Unless people self report there is no way to know that answer so how would you remotely use that as a factor.
Please be a bit more reasonable. With your logic the devs might as well Killswitch everyone but Trapper and Hillbilly.
1, if all killers have 10% DC rate and 1 have say 40% DC rate, it either means she breaks the game, or ppl don't want to face her
2, if all killers have 10% people dying on first hook and then you have killer that has 50% people dying on first hook, you know you have a problem with that killer (either suicides, or too good kit for camping)
3, if you track what people (connections) play and when they log off from game, you can easily collect information which killer was the one that they faced as last. If killer is played in say 5% of all matches, but is still 20% of all last games for said connection/player, you know you have problem with that killer.
There is very good and strong and vocal majority of people that clearly say, that the killer is problem. Compound it with stats and you have good data with good interpretation = good information. Problem with behavior's decisions based solely on stats is with missing context followed by wrong interpretation of data. There's 0 chance in that if you look at overwhelming feedback given to her.
Killswitch is PERFECTLY reasonable in this case. The only people defending her are exclusively those playing her (and even good part of those will admit she needs changes) - which is similar to say survivors asking for OG MoM - without any regards to the other side and to the pain it brings.
I'd rather have her killswitched for a long time (like bloodlodge) until they really fix her, then have broken thing spoiling games for all the players facing her.
And yes. I HATE HER WITH PASSION. I don't care if I win the match, because it's going to be boring anyway. At her current state, 24 hrs ban might be preferable - because you can do something more entertaining at the same time - like cleaning the house or literally anything else
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@mizark3 said:
I'm sorry but this is the equivalent of bringing Haunted Grounds and saying it NEEDS to be cleansed. You brought an RNG perk, you roll the dice. I do think instead of 5 hooks, the existing 4 should have semi-fixed RNG. Piece off maps into 4 quadrants, and only 1 Scourge can spawn per quadrant (ignoring Monstrous Shrine's basement hooks). This still could have Scourge hooks spawn at the bracket leg spots [ ], but then at least they are more centralized even in the worst case, and still always possible to reach 1 Scourge in the majority of circumstances. Indoor 2 story maps like Gideon and Midwich can instead have West/East and 1st floor/2nd floor permutations as the 4 quadrants.
This...
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Devs should seriously think about kill switching her.
Don't take my word for it. Check the number of DC's or suicides against her. Check how many ppl stopped playing dbd altogether after facing her.
It's very easy - you will have many more players and games if you just killswitch that abomination for a killer
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BNP got nerfed, because it was free 25% progression. You have perk that requires just specific hook for regression. If you relax the rule, then you have to get BNP treatment instead - pick a gen that has 100s to complete instead
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Just increase their radius and all of those will have much better chance to actually do something. CoH will waste less movement time making the altru healing possibly not wasted by moving, shadowstep would work in more then 2 tiles (you can't be too close or too far) and exponential will not be always just outside the reach. This together with a bit lower risk of boon discovery would make them at least OK.
Also buff dark theory, because it's effect is too bad even if it was map-wide.
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3491356#Comment_3491356
Best team based on what? There's official leaderboard to show that these 4 survivors are the best in the entire game. Also even if they are proveable the best, why does BHVR need to make a statement over them losing a game?
For a game that everyone keeps claiming to be a party game, you guys care so much about unofficial competitive play.
Your argument of DBD being a party game makes it even worse if you think about it. In a party game winning is not everything. So 1hr match where barely anything happens is by definition HUGE flop. Like worse then gen sometimes not being fixable. Worse then Greg being invisible in his nightfall. Because those ruin part of game/a few minutes. SM ruins almost an hour of game IN A PARTY GAME! It's VERY MUCH worth killswitch provided we are indeed talking about just a party game.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3491245#Comment_3491245
There's a couple flaws in reasoning here.
First, I'll go over the quickest and simplest mistake here- survivors do not need to hack a drone for you to get Haste. The Skull Merchant receives that Haste bonus whenever a survivor is tracked on her radar, which happens when they have a Claw Trap on and when they're standing in an Active Drone radius. Simple mistake, common misconception, but it does undercut this idea that SM NEEDS to place drones on generators because that requirement for them to be disarmed isn't actually there.
More generally though, I get the sense a lot of your reasoning here is based on the idea that the only viable place for Skull Merchant's drones is on top of generators, and that's faulty logic to rest on for two reasons. The first is that it's not actually true on live servers right now, but more pressingly, the second is that we're talking about her core design, not what she can currently do on live. Her core design includes stealth- if they buffed that, any Skull Merchant who wanted to use it certainly wouldn't be putting her drones on generators, she'd be putting them between generators so that she can leverage them for Undetectable and survivors would have to go out of their way to disarm them.
A similar principle applies without having to assume any changes to her balance. A lot of people seem to think that the only way you possibly even COULD use Skull Merchant's drones in chase is to place one down in a loop while you're actively in chase with that survivor already, but that's pretty obviously a bad idea on the face of it, given how long it takes for the drone to be placed, enter the Active state, and then how long it takes for something like Lock On to actually build up. The far better way of using her - right now, this isn't hypothetical - is to place the drones in key loops and between generators ahead of time, and then chase the survivors into them.
(There are flaws here, in that this playstyle is most useful when you use expensive purple addons and I personally don't think you should have to invest that much for her to have a viable chase power, but we're talking about core design rather than the hard specifics of her live balance.)
It seems like the people who think her power is fundamentally flawed and can never be balanced are incapable of viewing it as anything other than generator defence, when that's far from the only thing it's capable of doing even on live servers, let alone with some small-to-moderate number changes. Misconceptions and misunderstandings seem to lay under that take all the time, like the idea that Haste only comes from Claw Traps or that playing SM for chase would require placing drones mid-chase instead of setting them up ahead of time.
I hope it's clear that I'm not saying Skull Merchant doesn't need changes, because she does. What I'm saying is that her core design is far from a failure, and isn't so flawed that it can't be salvaged. It isn't even all that far away from healthy, in my opinion.
I have to say I don't have enough imagination for that one. I hope you are right, but considering how freakish bad she is - I don't even want to risk it and would much rather she her nuked and restarted from scratch
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@DrKetchup still feels spirit just needs buff. #3 strongest killer is just a weakling in his eyes. I can't count number of threads where he proposes different buffs to literally 3rd strongest killer in game. Like... WHY?!?!?!?
Any buff to her would need compensation nerf 100%. And I don't think spirit needs any nerfs (considering her MDR/amulet both get nerfed in next patch).
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@Sava18 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3491286#Comment_3491286
Actually no, while it's less common these days there are comp corners where only one viable hook is located.
Show me the map and condition. Because I am pretty certain this is not a case any more basically anywhere. Even on maps like swamp and going for corner - there's 1 hook in that corner and you can still get to the other one that's bit more far away - at least when you know where you are going
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This has too big abuse factor. I am not against mechanics, that would force killer to hook once everyone is slugged (to speedup the game), but if killer really downs everyone, he kinda deserves (or should have high probability of) win.
So delay the mechanics by 30s after last person is slugged and have this in game only if everyone is slugged on the ground.
Also make it 1x thing, because otherwise if killer misplayed (or some really weird 1 in 1000 RNG happened) and there's a spot with exactly 0 hooks on the part of map where everyone is going, then this absolutely warrants slugging to death.
Or make it 15-20s of protection time and it resets with every hook (or at least pickup) state-change
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@Clockwork_Enigma said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3490958#Comment_3490958
They're the wrong kind of anti-face camping mechanics simply due to the fact that they could just remove the Flight Path from Dire Crows:
- Within 10 meters of a hooked Survivor
- And facing said Survivor.
That would make face camping still as non-existent as it is now.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3491020#Comment_3491020
First and foremost, in what world did I say remove her ability to hit people at tiles? There was no mention of tile play, just the inability to use her power near a hook in instances that should be very reasonable.
Second, your idea is still similar to my idea but worse. My idea is to simply remove her ability to set down a flight path when within a certain range of a hooked Survivor, while looking at said Survivor, which should almost NEVER come into play if done correctly.
Lastly, with regards to being the "third best face camper in the game", that is hard to believe given the fact that you have Cannibal, Trickster, Billy, Myers, Legion, Plague and Huntress as big contenders. Shape, too, if you count add-on potential. She is nowhere NEAR the third best face camper, and your mention of DMS only really works if:
- Survivors are working on the generators
- Survivors are too afraid of being hit by the initial wave of birds
- You hit all three of the other Survivors somehow
- You know where each Survivor is at a given moment
- Then if all three Survivors aren't afraid of your birds the first time, you wait for a longer time to then hit them again to force them off the generator about 12 seconds later.
Otherwise, you're on a large cooldown while giving the Survivors the benefit of continuing to repair generators while you simultaneously are unable to facecamp as effectively as the aforementioned Killers. Your face camping in that scenario hinges on Survivors being unaware and you being aware of their locations at the same time.
Basically what I'm saying is that your facecamp with DMS is way too situational to become a problem.
What would prevent killer from standing 1 inch away from hooked survivor and shooting craws with DMS, pain res, deadlock? Just waiting at the hook for trade/tunnel and stopping all the possible progress?
My whole effort to the game was 1st initial down - then just unending camping/tunneling and slowing the game down.
No. This killer especially needs this area. Otherwise a lot of Artists would never move more then 3m away from hook. Maybe and I really mean maybe this can be reevaluated after self-unhook-anticamp mechanics is added to the game
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@Sava18 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3489137#Comment_3489137
Ah yes, defending bad design with perk/specific killers.
Gens can't move, hooks get deleted. Survivors can walk to a terrible area that has one hook deleted in order to struggle off.
There is no comparison.
Hooks can't move, gens get completed. There's precisely perfect comparison. Also - there's never ever a spot on a map where just 1 hook is the possibility. It's always at least 2. So if you delete one and then get the other one sabotaged, that's your fault (same way as creating 3gen for any killer that does not guard it from 1st second of match is survivor's fault).
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@Ithiria said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3491015#Comment_3491015
Sometimes if you work on gens instead of resetting with teammates you will just lose because they'll just quickly go down one after another.
I know this isn't always the case, and sometimes you do just need to hit the last gens, but I'm not claiming Circle is S-tier. I think it's a solid B-tier perk. There's much worse, and I tend to not even run full-meta anyhow.
I agree it's better then say reactive healing. But even if you don't go out of your way to boon, you still spend at least 20s on average just to create the boon (meaning you are not looking for totems, you boon only opportunistically if you happen to encounter bones). Now cool. You have boon. Say killer does not find it (risk you just take) - you need to reset. Will you walk away from the action for your 10s with other person for 8s heal? Or will you heal on a spot in 16s? Even if both of you are injured 8+8+10+(10/2) > 16+16 (the last part is to get back to gen, but it can be opposite direction or same direction so on average half the time spent walking). This does not include setup time....
But sure, if you are already in boon, or if you need to reset 4 ppl, it can be worth it. But is that "star alignment" really worth perk slot? Over something as basic as say resilience? Or inner healing if you are dealing w solo healing? Or we will make it if you want altru heal speed?
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@Ithiria said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3491013#Comment_3491013
Searching is the problem, and actually was even when CoH was OP. Some people would throw games spending like 40 seconds tryna find one that isn't in a terrible location.
You really should just mind the map when exploring, checking crannies you know bones can be when you're passing by doesn't take much time when you're traversing the map looking for gens.
You also shouldn't boon early on, it's not necessary. When I put Circle into my builds I tend to boon if it looks like we're gonna have several players be injured, in which case it's very worth the time since it makes resetting much quicker even in the face of sloppy.
Or you can work on gens instead and get out before you need the boon. And that still ignores the value of spare perk slot for something actually useful
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@Ithiria said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3490670#Comment_3490670
I disagree, We'll Make It has an activation condition that is very problematic in solo queue (and doesn't do anything for you) and botany knowledge messes with your medkit if you bring one
Additionally, CoH has that info component, I think it's pretty valuable to know when an injured teammate is there or if your teammates are resetting (and you yourself are injured.)
Getting alright heals and alright information for one perk isn't a bad deal, however, you do want to make sure you boon in a deadzone or a really strong spot so you don't waste your time booning.
Time investment of searching for totem and then booning make it not worth it.
IMO there's only 1 good boon left and even that has conditions - strong swf, flashlights/sabotage and hard to access spot for killer - exponential.
All the other boons are weak now (CoH because investment, shadowstep because investment and so limited area), or outright useless (dark theory has investment for benefit you can't ever notice)
To make 3 of those boons actually good (but far from meta), you would need to increase their range by +50% without changing anything else about them.
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@KayTwoAyy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3490657#Comment_3490657
To piggy-back off of this...
I'm curious if other Killers, such as Blight, can hold a 3-gen hostage as we saw with Skull Merchant v. Eternal, but don't simply because it's not the playstyle that became most popular with that Killer.
I've no reason to believe Blight couldn't do what Skull Merchant did in that match up, but better, because of his mobility. He can effectively run the same add-ons as SM, or he could run his even stronger add-ons.
While my gut reaction is to agree with OP's call for a complete SM rework, I fear that Skull Merchant is a product of a Killer playstyle meta-shift, rather than her own design. If this is the case, other Killers who can lock down a 3-gen will begin doing so, and the problem will then be universal.
No. Blight in fact would be worse at this tactics. Blight does not have ability, that prohibits you from working on a gen for guaranteed tens of seconds or being exposed. Blight does not have any addons, that make hitting skillchecks so damn hard. Blight has no ability to track survivors, so if he does not look behind that rock next to a gen, then survivor can start to work on a gen 1s after blight turns away.
Don't get me wrong. Blight is stronger. Thanks to his ability he can also hold 3gens quite well. But he is nowhere near as good at holding it as SM. And if he decides to kick gens instead of chase (because say survivors with 5k hrs each can consistently outsmart learning blight), then he is in much worse position.
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Ah yes. Spirit being #3 strongest killer in game is not enough. She clearly needs some hefty buffs /s
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@Crowman said:
There should never be an exception to the DC penalty. Doesn't matter how "justified" you feel about it.
It shows you are playing killer way more then survivor.
TBF I agree. Provided they outright delete skull merchant (possibly knight too, but he's only half as bad)
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The map used to be too large with too many god loops that could be reusable making it very survivor sided.
So the solution was to make it 2 very small maps with lots of (mostly unsafe) pallets and a handful of sort of good windows and obnoxious 3gen - swinging the pendulum at killers.
Sure, there still are killers that don't like the map (e.g. huntress), but for most it's easy win one way or another
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The killer is so broken by design, that the only thing to do about her is give her the OG Freddy treatment.
Just nuke her and do her all over again
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It's iri addon. It should compete with things like C33, engeneering's fang and so on. For it's rarity - it's not even THAT strong.
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@supersonic853 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3488874#Comment_3488874
And on maps like midwich or ironworks of misery which can literally have 1 hook in a area? (One of the times i played midwich there was only 3 hooks upstairs making it so when you got rid of one impossible. People have even found an entire hallway with no hook at all. Ironworks of misery the entire middle building only has 1 hook inside of it if basements not there. So if someone dies on it (which survivors can easily force) you have the slug the rest hanging upstairs. (Rcpd had this problem to with the library). Its why sabo builds have been such a popular thing for troll teams.
No longer true. Ironworks does not have complete deadzone (if you know how to stagger survivor into super-quick down) - talking main AND midwitch got changed in around patch 6.5 and no longer has any hook-missing spots (they added about +50% or more hooks and made the spread more even - making it instantly about average or even slightly worse map for sabotages compared to the best map in the game).
Usually it's the other way around - some maps have such a dense hook spawn, that even perfect sabotage with bodyblock is not enough to rescue teammate (saloon, gideon, Lery's come to mind as an examples).
Unfortunatelly devs won't do anything about it, because sabotages are not very popular (because they are generally bad even though they are fun) so there's very few voices asking to fix them
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TBF I feel like Devs are removing those. Like GoJ was awful. Now it's just bad (but predictably so). A lot of maps had random stuff that's no longer there (going to basement in Thomson's comes to mind). There are still issues with newer maps (IDK about Toba, but definitely shattered square) - hopefully those will be fixed too
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I think good take on this whole topic was summed up by Scott
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xUcEfHuk9I -
5 for both sides would be fun. More options, that would be a natural big meta shakeup. I like the idea.
Giving just 1 side 5 perk slots is yet again unfair. The game is quite balanced now (TBF, killers still have above 50% kill rate, so if anything, buff survivors a little more), so going for 5 perks for killer while leaving 4 to survivors is absolutely no-go (especially with that reasoning - same can be said for killer by patch 6.1 - basekit STBFL, brutal strength, prolonged gens by 12.5% (perk that does not even exist), quicker bloodlust (another nonexistent basekit perk) + quite a few survivor nerfs )
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@BlueHorkew said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/383928/nerf-cenobite
This might help, if you are struggling.
During chain hunt, the chains always go waves of 3, so when you pick up the box, count until you have dodged 3 chains and then start working on the box.
Basically if you are working on the box you will not attacked by chains, but if you are in the middle of a wave of chains then they will still attack you and interrupt you.
Also, if you are the only survivor not downed, killed or on hook, NEVER do the box, chain hunt can never start when there is only one survivor up.
And as I wrote just before you - if you can pre-dodge the chain, you don't even need to wait for 3rd one
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@mizark3 said:
A nice QoL buff to all levels of play would be batching charges. Right now the second you tap M2 while sawing, the charge is used, and the saw timer resets. That means if you tap M2 2 times at the start, you burn all the charges but only get 1 saw duration. If it were batched, it would queue up the charge to be used when at 0%, that way you don't have to memorize the timings and can just tap the button once or twice can focus on the chase and its mindgames. I think that would help newbies and veterans alike.
Then if they fix his bugged and worthless Iri, that would also help him be in a better place. The tuning guide is basically a worse version of Purple Chili (same bonus per charge), and since it combines the charges, it slows you down further than you'd expect from what the number says. The saw speed is programmed to reach certain speed thresholds after X% of a charge, not X seconds. That means if you only have 1 charge of the 3 times combined, you reach full speed much later than if you had the normal 3 charges.
For iri addon - AFAIK this was (long time) bug that got fixed in PTB (so in next patch it will work correctly)
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100% what @sizzlingmario4 said. He's very fun (both as and against) if he isn't the camping kind
Just a note - giving him both speed AND chilly basekit would make him too strong if he actually then takes beastmarks and award chilly.
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To be frank, I love playing as Pinhead, but don't really like going against him (but he's nowhere near so bad as knight or skull merchant). He is a little annoying with his box.
As for chain hunt activating, that's a good thing. You shouldn't ignore it. This forces you to pick it up before time runs out.
But there's a bug in a game, where chains don't go for some survivors for limited time and at the same time they can go for a survivor that's solving a box (It's not super common, but it still does happen).
This being said, usually chains hitting survivor is survivor's mistake. You can reliably (provided you are not bugged - but again this bug is rare) solve the cube by waiting for 3rd chain and then start, or if you are a little advanced - by starting to solve the box before dodged chain hits ground (meaning you kind-of pre-dodge the chain and start solving it while it still flies, but after it will no longer hit you).
As for him being too strong - well I think he's in a right spot. If you are able to dodge the chains (skillful interaction between you and killer), then he's just very slow M1 killer. If he does not have impaling wire, there are quite a lot of obstacles where his power does nothing (aka, slow him down more then survivor)
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@notyarbllewe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3486506#Comment_3486506
I feel like guaranteeing the killer is put to a bad map is much stronger than seeing some stuff about the survivors, but I get your point. However, the killer is only able to see the items themselves and not their strength, so that is definitely not quite as powerful as it could be.
For me it's equal trade. If you think it stronger, that's fine. I am totally OK with removing map offering so long as whole lobby is invisible (or keep current status)
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@notyarbllewe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3486032#Comment_3486032
People have said what they could do is reverse the purpose of map offerings, making it so they prevent a map from coming. The bad part of this, though, is that tryhards to could easily choose to not bring the few good killer maps, increasing the chance of the ones they love. There are too many survivor-sided (or messed up entirely) maps, and so this wouldn't be quite as good for killer.
If the devs can't fix the maps, I find it best to remove map offerings. You can't say it's fairer to be forced to the worst of maps rather than unluckily getting put there.
Ok. Remove map offerings, but remove whole visibility for lobby. Map offerings are the other side of coin that killer knows stuff about survivors, can see their items, can change build, possibly can see hours played...
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3486018#Comment_3486018
"Doesn't have time to perfectly react" sounds a lot like "brute forcing with speed". Spirit's directional audio perfectly tells which direction Spirit is, and it's constantly updating, so survivors should know instantly if Spirit changes directions.
So if it's 50/50 it's bruteforce. If it's 100% for killer it's mind games. Got it
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My group will use ALL the map offerings one after the other, with exception to lery's, midwitch, RPD, toba's and shattered. These offerings are means to a, not repeat the same map twice b, dodge those 5 realms we don't enjoy. Same build on all the maps (maybe with exception to saloon - I remove saboteur there as the perk is totally useless on that map)
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3485892#Comment_3485892
If survivors have enough information where they don’t need to guess, then it’s not a mindgame.
The buffed directional audio is 100% crystal clear, is loud enough to be easily heard through chase music, and isn’t affected by sound occlusion. There’s no room left for mindgames.
Mindgames is just the fancy word for anything that requires someone to make a guess.
Interesting. How is it then possible, that if I go in one direction and then double-back, that survivors will go to my other side and let themselves be hit? And I am talking about all survivors... Maybe perhaps... They don't know perfectly well where spirit is after all? Or they maybe don't have time to react perfectly well? Go figures.
Also I have exactly the same experience when going against spirit. I don't know about you, but all I can say is approximate direction. And double backs work
@lav3 said:
Surely directional audio is hurting her but doesn't make her unplayable.
Imo, all she needs is changing her trash add-ons.
With upcoming patch, her viable add-ons rare than Uncommon will be Rusty Flute, Cherry Blossom and MDR.
Others won't be a wise option.
Yes. She has quite a number of addons, that are beyond useless
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I agree with you.
But a note to what you said - killer having 8 hooks and 0 kills does not mean, that killer tried to spread hooks. I have had games, where killer was bad enough, that even though he wanted to hard tunnel at 5 gens, that the rest of survivors were able to make the killer loose his target. It is possible, it's just not that likely.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3485351#Comment_3485351
Many loops are large enough that you can't mindgame, because the survivors would hear the directional audio change well before you reach them.
And if Spirit does "mindgames" on the small loops, she's really just brute forcing with her phasing speed, by doing things like getting a survivor to vault and then phasing to the other side of the pallet before the survivor can vault again. And those loops are generally short enough that the pallet was unsafe, and the killer could have gotten the hit even if they weren't spirit.
So if it's not 100% guarantee, then it's not mindgame? That's not how it works. The game is designed to give both sides a chance.
There are very few loops, that are short enough, that your case would actually be true. I have seen some insane spirits, that mindgamed even shack with downed pallets (that's a bit extreme, but still possible). I don't know what more you would want. 99% of loops are less safe than shack
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3485039#Comment_3485039
inexperienced player won't understand mindgames. i had long conversation with old slinger with gandor. there is no point in arguing. spirit is not about mindgames anymore. she's more about brute-force speed between pallet loops. the survivor makes no guesses but killer makes some guess based off location after you break the pallet as spirit. I think you'll still be able to play spirit post-MDR nerf because you can get old MDR by combining with yellow speed add-on. you'll get 35% speed which is only 5% less then current MDR. Eventually if they go billy-route with spirit, they might remove all speed add-on on her and put heavy negatives like --2 second and -1 second duration on phase-walk for speed add-on's to remove incentive to use them.
You know that spirit is my 3rd most played killer at the moment? There most definitely ARE mindgames. You can use directional audio AGAINST survivors.