FFirebrandd
FFirebrandd
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3359903#Comment_3359903
I agree the language matters. I say 'outplay' because if dead hard were deleted, then 99% Sprint burst would become the target of annoyance. As it is, the new blood rush perk will likely be irritating to face as well, even though it's single use, because it will be Sprint burst on 'e' instead of endurance.
I don't think dead hard is perfect, but it gets far more anger than it deserves. By design, it's the 'exhaustion perk that triggers on demand', so unless it's deleted or reworked completely it will always be 'annoying' to face... Again, that's because it gives the survivor a reaction to avoid something the killer wants to do (like blood rush will).
I also don't have any constructive ideas for how to fix Dead Hard as it is. I have issues with every 'recommended fix' I've seen outside of deleting it.
It's also worth noting that I think the perk is overhated because I personally find it to be incredibly unreliable as survivor. So much so that I've been using Lithe or nothing at all for months. It's incredibly dependent on killer's latency. Some games I was able to get consistent value, others i still effectively get exhausted on the ground. I have the same sporadic latency issue with vaulting, where hits land after I've taken two steps out of the window, but at least then I can choose to run resilience to mitigate it.
Dead Hard is countered by insta downs, deep wound (which can be applied base kit), exhaustion, and latency. It can be baited out or wasted if the survivor makes a mistake or is forced into a mistake.
It's also countered by fearmonger and blood echo. I tend to get decent fearmonger value in my killer games because, even if I get hit with dead hard once, I know they have to avoid touching gens for 40 seconds of free slowdown if they want to dead hard again later. I doubt that some people have even tried these perks, even though dead hard (or exhaustion perks in general) are so powerful. They're worth yelling about, but somehow not worth trying to use the tools to deal with in game.
Sprint Burst will never be as hated as Dead Hard for a multitude of reasons. Firstly it gives the Killer zero fake positive feedback. Secondly 99ing a SB is tricky and can backfire either via walking at the wrong time to get it or holding it for too long resulting in less total gen progress. Thirdly, most of the time SB happens at the very start of a chase when the Killer player isn't that invested in the chase yet... the survivor adding 10s to a chase at the start feels way different than the survivor adding 10s to a chase that should be over already.
Part of why you feel like Dead Hard is over hated is simple. The killer doesn't see half the DH fails. Specifically the exhausted on the ground ones. For the Killer, it feels much more reliable than it is. Also how reliable it is or isn't doesn't change the fact that right here right now when it did work... it royaly sucks for the Killer and... usually sucks way worse than old DH did.
As for countering it... outside of actively tunneling and swinging into basekit BT, most killers actually can't inflict deep wound at will. Oh gee, would you look at that... the second most popular topic on the forum is about tunneling being out of control. Seems to me like some Killers are actively using basekit BT to counter DH and survivors hate it. As for Blood Echo, outside of Plague and Legion most killers probably won't be able to get value out of it because of CoH and Medkits, and Legion doesn't need BE to counter DH anymore. The slowdown you're talking about with Fearmonger is only relevant if you let the survivor who successfully dead harded you go... and assumes the Survivor isn't able to do something else productive with that 40s exhaustion... like mending the deep wound, setting up CoH and self healing. It also doesn't help if you lost your first 2 gens during that chase and don't even have a down. Fearmonger isn't a terrible perk, but it isn't as good a counter to DH as you're implying.
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I'm excited. I've always preferred macro focused killers and stealth killers, and Skull Merchant is both.
Pig kinda is too but she's too dependent on getting downs and traps out for me.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3359633#Comment_3359633
Then I feel like we're saying the same thing with different words.
Your 'loss aversion' only occurs when the survivor presses e to dead hard, which is what I'm referring to as 'being outplayed'. You seem to be focused on the part where the anticipated phenomenon is 'swing weapon and down survivor' doesn't occur, and I'm looking at the reason why that happened: the survivor did something to change the expected outcome.
Any scenarios that avoid loss aversion are 'always on' or 'on a timer' forms of hit avoidance, but also don't require any precise timing or reaction by the survivor either.
The key difference between other forms of hit avoidance and dead hard is the unknown that comes from having a real person as an opponent, which is what we're both seemingly agreeing on.
That difference in language matters.
This is a game. The potential for outplaying your opponents is a thing that should exist. It's a good thing.
However, again... this is a game. All parties involved should be enjoying it if possible. Outplays can and should exist, but ones that feel like garbage because they feel like they robbed one player of something they spent a considerable amount of time to get generally shouldn't.
You seem to be saying that Dead Hard is fine and stay as it is. I'm saying it absolutely isn't fine and shouldn't stay.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3359369#Comment_3359369
What you described is present any time endurance gets used, whether it's from BT, OTR, or Dead Hard. Including the 'it sounds like I hit then but it didn't count'. (Which, btw, hit validation also registers hits that 'shouldn't have landed').
Endurance is only relevant when you would get a down (injured), and the feedback is the same regardless of where the endurance came from.
And while I'm sure there are some who would argue for endurance changes, by far the overwhelming outcry is about dead hard.
You're 100% guaranteed right now to have BT on every unhook. This isn't a hyperbolic 'dead hard is everywhere', it's just a fact that BT is in every single game, several times per game. And it isn't necessarily the 'waiting' that bothers people as much, because when they want to, people will cheerfully count to 10 while sniffing the survivor off hook.
The variable here is that the survivor has agency over when dead hard is used. That is, by far, the most triggering aspect of the perk.
It actually isn't because you should be able to tell if someone has basekit BT or OTR active.
If you're swinging into the Survivor who just got off hook, you kind of expect Endurance. Same with a Survivor who's injured but silent. Maybe not so much with Soul Guard or We're Gonna Live Forever but almost nobody runs those.
Loss aversion can't kick in when you weren't expecting to have the thing in the first place.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3359327#Comment_3359327
People don't like getting outplayed. That's basically what it boils down to.
The outplay potential with Sprint burst is basically just to 99% it... Until blood rush comes out.
Then you'll get a Sprint burst on a button, just like dead hard. I give it a month before people complain about that, too.
There's more to it than that.
For example, if I as the killer lose track of the survivor at a loop and they leave, gaining a ton of distance... that obviously doesn't feel good, but it is an annoyance at worst. Slapping a Dead Hard feels infinitely worse.
The way Dead Hard is set up is that it is only relevant in a position where the Killer otherwise would have a down. To make matters worse, the feedback the game gives killers for a down vs hitting DH is very similar.
It is literally the perfect setup to trigger the killer player's loss aversion. Honestly that alone should get it nerfed/reworked again.
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I did see that video. For the most part Scott was correct. However if SB became meta I do not think there would be anywhere near the same outcry against it. For one very simple reason.
SB doesn't ever feel like you got robbed of a hit. DH basically always does.
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I generally prefer macro and stealth play to anti loop/1v1. Most killers like that are M1 killers, so yes. I still main M1 killers.
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The funny part is that yeah you'd have Dead Hard, but unless you 99 Sprint Burst... you aren't using it.
Side note, for April Fools, I want them to actually do this. Everyone has every perk equipped.
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Dead Hard is absolutely unfair unless it is against Nurse, Blight, and maybe Spirit. If you're reaching, maybe Legion and Slinger as well since they can turn it off.
However, I would say that Trapper is in slightly better shape vs it than other M1 killers since they can't DH traps anymore. 50/50ing the pallet doesn't really work if there's a bear trap there.
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For Beast of Prey, what I'd rather see is the following.
After being in chase for 20s, Beast of Prey activates.
Beast of Prey grants undetectable until a survivor is damaged by any means.
Beast of Prey has a cool down of 50/40/30 seconds.
So... kinda like Trail of Torment but activated by being in chase.
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Ever been in a game where there's 2 Survivors left and they just stealth around and do nothing?
From what I’ve heard, that used to happen all the time pre Hatch when there was only 1 survivor left.
Hatch was added to make that situation not a thing.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3358346#Comment_3358346
1, I don't think it's irrelevant. It's recent change and it fully applies
2, 10s longer solving of gen?
1. It is irrelevant because we're discussing how to make tunneling and camping less desirable. Something the 6.1 changes actually did the opposite of. OP suggested to buff survivors massively to do it and I suggested we massively buff both. That way we both have a better stick to punish tunneling and a better carrot to entice not tunneling.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3358266#Comment_3358266
STBFL, brutal strength and thana were basekit from 6.1 on killers. And I see only BT on survivor. What do you mean?
Firstly, I'm talking about this proposal so changes in 6.1 are irrelevant to this discussion.
Secondly, even if they were... killers never had base kit Thana. They got 50% of Brutal and 25% of STBFL. Survivors also got the post unhook movespeed bonus from Guardian/Babysitter base kit.
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Brutal Strength is my comfort perk. The only time I take it off is if I have a build where I need all 4 perks to be other things.
Also Corrupt on Trapper.
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By my count, you've added 4 perks as base kit for Survivors but only one for Killer. So why not keep going and make 3 more killer Perks base kit that rewards not camping and tunneling?
Base kit BBQ and Chili
Base kit old Thanatophobia
Base kit old Pop Goes the Weasel
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I'm really excited for her too. Got my 9k shards and nearly 2 mil bp. I'm ready.
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Did he have unrelenting equipped?
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This has been my experience pretty much the whole night. Tunnel or lose.
Why?
Because when all the survivors took BT, DS, and Unbreakable out of their builds, they replaced them with things like Prove Thyself, Circle of Healing, Built to Last, and other assorted perks that make them much more efficient than they normally would be.
Playing "clean" used to be very strong specifically because you could be nullifying 75% of the survivor perks in the lobby (everything they brought except their exhaustion perk). That's actually huge. Now though, nobody brings anti tunnel, anti slug, or anti camp perks so it has never ever been easier to tunnel, but it is way harder to not... because the survivors are doing everything faster. It also doesn't help that Thanatophobia got butchered.
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if they were going to do this, they should make it an option. Either you can do the current fast snuff that leaves the Totem still alive or a slightly longer break action. Then shattered hope would make the break just as fast as the snuff and also do the aura read.
The thought process here is that perks like Hex: Plaything, Hex: NOED, Hex: Thrill of the Hunt, and whatever Knight's Hex is called exist that need dull totems to work.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
Incapacitated should just never exist for a set duration and probably shouldn’t be used on perks. Its original purpose was to force survivors to remove Victor, and it was then added to Pinhead as well. For these two purposes, it’s fine as it is and doesn’t need to be changed. Eruption was bad design not because of what Incapacitated does, but because of the way it used it, how it was applied, and how long it lasted. That Huntress addon that has it should probably be reworked too.
To be fair, if you were just hit by a hatchet, odds are you aren't going to be repairing, healing, cleansing, etc in the next 10 seconds anyway.
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@SilentShepherd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3355002#Comment_3355002
Killers who remove chase ...... basically the only fun thing a survivor can do, just defeats the whole purpose of playing that role
Out of the recent Killer releases from BHVR, it's what? look at how many recent killer releases are anti-loop killers? Artist? Dredge? Knight? and now another one coming?
If BHVR wants to kill looping, then tell me what do Survivors do? Just close our eyes and hold W so we can be your mousey toy plaything until you down and hook us, and inbetween that stellar gameplay, we have holding M1 and staring at the screen.
I feel like putting Skull Merchant in the remove chase bucket is a bit inaccurate.
For context, SM's base kit anti loop takes 5 and 13 seconds at a loop to kick in. She drops a drone, it takes 3s to turn on. If SM stays in its range for 2s she gets undetectable, which can be helpful in chase but isn't crazy. If the Survivor stays in the Drone's area for 10s they become exposed. Which only matters if you're healthy.
She does have addons that give her more chase power than that, but they look like worse variations of what Clown does. Or a better version of Dredge's perk that makes survivors break pallets they vault.
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Most of the time I really enjoyed playing on Hawkins. The visuals were great and I kind of loved how there were no standardized tiles on it... instead it had a ton of weak pallets that you could sometimes combine into a mega tile and I did really like it. As killer it was quite nice that there wasn't much in the way of God windows or pallets. Most tiles felt like you could play them out in your favor.
Except if I was playing as Huntress... then it *sucked*.
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@Brokenbones said:
To me It feels like Knight and Skull-Merchants powers don't have a "intended playstyle", It's just whatever players do with them because their powers tick so many general killer gameplay boxes (albeit poorly in some areas)
'Anti-loop', Tracking and a way to protect generators. The only thing that's missing from these two is mobility but they make up for that by having a power that leaves "something" in an area (guard/drone).
Problem is, they just aren't fun to play and I know that's extremely subjective as some people genuinely enjoy playing genlock knight but speaking personally I can't play Knight for more then a game or two before I'm bored but I can play Blight or Wesker non stop not because of their better results but because their powers are genuinely fun to use
We seem to have ended up in the same spot as to her game plan (versatility) but very different spots as to whether or not we'd play them.
I really like M1 killer game play, so Skull Merchant being one with a power that you don't directly do much with but will hopefully provide enough little extra efficiencies for you and inefficiencies for the Survivors to be viable is super exciting for me.
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So... I'm not from Behavior, but I can share what I think is the gameplan for Skull Merchant.
So... the backbone of her kit is information. Beyond that, she's got three things going on. Light anti loop from exposed and forcing survivors away from loops, light slow down from survivors hacking drones and removing claw traps that takes her almost no time to set up, and light stealth from drones giving her undetectable. Then... she's got so many addons that add perk like effects to any one of those 3 game plans... making it entirely possible to specialize in one of the three.
So... in short, I think the gameplan is versatility and efficiency. Even when specialized, She won't be as stealthy as Ghost Face, as good in chase as Clown, or have as much slowdown as Leigon or Pig, but those will never be the only tools she's working with. Meanwhile all her base kit info will make it easier to not waste time not knowing where to go.
I don't know if that game plan will work, but I think that's what they were going for.
Edit: Also I am 100% expecting her to be add on dependent.
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Red Herring / Diversion.
It is by no means the most consistent perk, but if you can use it to manufacture situations where the killer is looking for a phantom for 10-15s, it's really good.
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@Phasmamain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3354174#Comment_3354174
He had slightly better stealth but his M1 game was exactly the same basically.
I’d say they are both frustrating on indoor maps (Though trickster can have ricochet at least)
His M1 game was better because he's shorter than her. There's some tiles where he can mind game but she can't because of that.
In addition to the ricochet addon, Trickster also raises his knives faster and doesn't have a charge up mechanic. So in indoor maps especially... there's a lot of times where Trickster could land 1-2 knives and Huntress wouldn't be able to use a hatchet. No joke, before it got removed, I hated getting Hawkins as Huntress. On Trickster I didn't care... and sometimes it would turn out exceptionally well.
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@Phasmamain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3354075#Comment_3354075
Old trickster was just an annoyance imo. In chase it was similar to doctor where he was guarded a down but it took a long time to get it. It felt bad for survivors since you basically knew there was nothing you could as dodging 1 of his 70 knives was useless
he was even more mindless at low wall loops where he could just spam knives since he only had to hit 16 out of 60 base
Longer decay time meant even if the survivor played well they would go down because their laceration bar would never decay if the trickster was somewhat decent
I just can’t see any positives about him over huntress especially his old version
For old Trickster at least, he had better uptime, better stealth, and a better M1 game than her. I also found him much less frustrating to try to use on indoor maps.
So I guess in a word: flexibility. Yeah, Huntress was a better ranged killer than him, but he could do other stuff as well that she mostly couldn't.
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@Phasmamain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3353866#Comment_3353866
What exactly did you like more about old trickster?
A lot of things.
I liked how you could bring in 70 knives for the price of a brown. That could pretty easily enable Trickster to go on multiple chases without having to reload. Especially if you managed to weave in an M1 or 2. That could let Trickster be much more relentless than Huntress could be.
The 70 knives and longer fall off timer also meant that you could usually prevent survivors from just holding shift W. But not in a borderline cheap way that old Deathslinger could by tapping ADS. Now though, you don't have near as many knives and there's a high chance that a long distance knife will just fall off even if you do hit.
While I did like that his power countered loops that couldn't be mind gamed and wasn't as good on ones that could... I didn't like how his changes doubled down on that.
Lastly, I am aware that it was a bit silly that M&A used to create a ring of silence between his lullaby and TR... but I didn't really see it as a problem. It isn't like a surprise Trickster can instantly inflict a hit with his knives. He still needs to throw 8 of them. In fact I really liked that since I quite enjoy stealth gameplay. But too many stealth killers don't have a backup plan for maps and teams where stealth doesn't work. Old Trickster with M&A scratched that itch for me.
Seriously... I was all the way here for old Trickster. So much so that I P3'd him under the old Prestige system. Then the changes happened and I basically haven't touched him since. I don't think he should be reverted, but I would be overjoyed if they changed Memento Blades to basically take you back to release Trickster.
Edit: Now that I've reread my former second to last paragraph about M&A, I think that’s part of why I actually am excited for Skull Merchant. Stealth killer with a backup plan is one way you could describe her current kit.
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Oh lord I hope not. I actually really liked release Trickster and hated the direction they took him.
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I would say no. No killer should have required addons. However if the addon in question is brown, then it at least pushes the problem into not an emergency territory. Also judging their power assuming they'll have the brown equipped is reasonable.
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Well... for starts, the main reward for Killers to not tunnel got deleted. That being BBQ stacks.
For seconds, MMR got put in place. As a system, MMR encourages the players to go hard and never let up. For the Killer side that means tunneling. For Survivors it means gen rushing. For a casual game, DBD's old match making was a lot better other than emblems being real mean to some killers.
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@t1zer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3313311#Comment_3313311
My friends are playing with this kind of destruction, because they fixed 4 and 3
Maybe tell them to run the game full screen.
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Can I go with reverted? Before the meta shake up, I already thought that prebuff Eruption was better than prenerf Pop if you were going for a defensive/territorial play style. Even with just all the indirect buffs it got in that patch it probably would have become Meta.
I legitimately don't know why they buffed it.
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@YOURFRIEND said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3312317#Comment_3312317
Is nurse getting nerfed? The compensation addon buffs outweigh the special attack consideration in my opinion.
Tbh it's difficult to tell. She's losing a lot of her current broken stuff but gaining a lot of new stuff. There's really no telling if she'll be better or worse afterwards. I think she'll be worse, but I can definitely see somebody not agreeing with me on that.
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@Sometimes_Sage said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3312317#Comment_3312317
Like I wrote in my second paragraph and then reitererated multiple times towards the end, it's about the fact that one side is reduced to efficieny over game feel, not about which side is numerically stronger.
Also, waiting out the immunity on someone who is blocking you isn't countering them, it is doing exactly what they aim to force you to do.
Except they aren't just focused on efficiency with killers?
Do the upcoming Knight changes look like an efficiency change to you? Cause they aren't. Not a single one buffs Knights who just drop guards at loops which is the most efficient but boring way to play him. Instead they all buff Knights that go for longer paths which is much more interesting and fun.
Honestly it's the same for Nurse. Sure overall she's going to be weaker, but they actually buffed a lot of her add ons that are currently meme level. Like the Undetectable post blink hit one, or auto 2nd blink one, or the rewind one.
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So... couple things.
First, post unhook endurance does have counters. You can wait it out and grabs completely bypass the effect.
Second, the patch that made that endurance effect be base kit also added 10 seconds to each generator, gave killers faster kicking gens and pallets, faster recovery from successful hits, shorter post hit speed boosts for Survivors, and a bit of instant regression when kicking gens.
I don't know which side came out on top with that patch, but it isn't nearly as cut and dried as you are portraying.
Same with this patch honestly. Yeah... Nurse is getting nerfed, but the Knight is getting some pretty nifty looking buffs and new Eyre of Crows looks a lot less mean to killers.
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This would be so nice.
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Dead Hard.
If you ever dare to try to have fun with a killer with a lackluster or no chase power... Dead Hard is just all kinds of stupid. Oh you got out played? Just kidding no you didn't because you have a button that I didn't or couldn't play around and the chase is now 50% longer than it should have been.
Seriously... it needs to be deleted.
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That's not why VHS is mostly dead.
All of the following happened between when streamers were hyping it up an when it released.
1. A DDOS attack.
2. A lengthy period of radio silence.
3. A rebranding.
4. Their Discord getting hacked.
5. No marketing push to announce that the game was finally out.
I'll freely admit that VHS is much more punishing than DBD is, but trying to make it out like that is its biggest problem is incredibly inaccurate.
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To be honest that wouldn't help much. If someone gets caught in a trap, a far better outcome is for you to down them.
What would actually help him is if disarming took longer at base.
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An FoV slider going from current FoV to Shadowborn's FoV then rework Shadowborn.
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I'm not really sure why they buffed it. Prior to that massive overhaul, there were situations where it was better than Pop.
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Depending on the terrain, he's either way too good or kinda useless.
The weird part to me is that his last set of changes made that even more true. I wish they'd make it so Memento Blades gave us release Trickster with old brown knife bag. I miss 70 knife Trickster.
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Iron Grasp: Now also gives 10/15/20% faster picking up and hooking survivors.
Beast of Prey: After being in chase for 15s, gain undetectable. This lasts until you damage a survivor or 5s after losing chase.
Predator: Predator now spawns the normal set of scratch marks in addition to the narrow set.
Unnerving Presence: Now uses old Ruin's skill checks instead of shrinking the success zones.
Distressing: Repairing, healing, sabotage, cleansing, and blessing are 3/4/5% slower if done in the killer's TR.
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I still don't think it needed a nerf at all. It was used so much because it is comfortable and reliable. I would definitely take it getting rebuffed to 40-45% though.
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So... what I'm hearing you want is make it terrible as a stand alone perk but obnoxious and possibly OP if you combo it with other regression perks.
No thanks. Oppression just needs a slightly lower CD.
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Funnily enough Trail of Torment is actually pretty good on Legion. It has helped me get very easy downs here and there vs Survivors who don't heal up after getting frenzied.
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I've been running Built To Last, Streetwise, Resilience, and an exhaustion perk. With that setup, you can get 4-5 full heals out of a yellow medkit with no addons. It's pretty nutty.
It's a pretty good replacement for my previous build that used old Botany and Self Care to make a brown medkit last for nearly 2 full heals. Rip the medkit efficiency on those perks.
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First, I would make it take less time to set traps and more time to disarm them. Right now at base it takes longer for Trapper to place them than Survivors to disarm them. That's just wrong.
Second, I'd make it so that once every... 45-60 seconds Trapper can open a locker to move the furthest trap from wherever it is into his inventory.
I'd want to see where he sits after that.
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@Shroompy said:
Funny way to spell Trapper
Trapper has issues, but at least he's got one of the best snowball potentials in the game and the most dangerous traps in the game.
What's Deathslinger got going for him? The clunkiest gun known to gaming... that's what.
Also Trapper is actually fun. Hearing that snap + scream is very satisfying.