Devil_hit11
Devil_hit11
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@[Deleted User] said:
Let me preface this by saying I think this is a really good chapter. With some tweaks, I think this can be one of the best chapters ever released. But there are some issues with the chapter that require some tweaks. I'm not a dev, so I can't really say what those tweaks should be. I can only review the gameplay on both sides.
As killer: Xeno's power is really satisfying to use. There is really good potential for skill shots and they have good mobility. Definitely in my main rotation of killers to play. The flame turrets can be a bit frustrating. I sometimes feel like I don't have enough time to react to them when I don't have the right add ons, and I'm pulled out of my power for too long unless I elect to abandon chase to crawl into a tunnel. I get why turrets are protected after you exit a tunnel, but it leads to an awkward standoff where the survivor kind of waits at the edge of the flame radius and you can't engage them because the turret will activate.
As survivor: This is the weak point of the chapter IMO. Xeno's tail attack is a guessing game. For every one time you bait out a missed tail attack, you fake a window for no reason and get M1'd. It's a skill shot for the killer and a complete guessing game for the other side. Survivor gameplay is also extremely repetitive against Xeno. Deploying a flame turret the first time is cool. It really ceases being a novel concept the 5th or 6th time you have to do it in a trial. And I am so sick of deploying flame turrets after the 3rd Xeno game in an hour. I would like to see flame turrets just have a single deployment, be disabled on hit, and have survivors pick them up and move them once deployed. It's way, way, way too repetitive to do the entire deployment process every. single. time. This is the same issue reworked Sadako has with constantly juggling tapes, Skull Merchant has with repetitive drone hacking, and Singularity has with EMPs. You really need to get away from this design of repetitive secondary actions on survivor. These things don't break up the monotony of gens when they themselves become the monotony.
you can see why i said that secondary objectives are not good idea for survivor because they add another repetitive element in generators to the game but they don't really like... add different gameplay. they end up being like generator 2.0. I think I wrote once to @Reinami for why I thought complicating game is not necessary a good idea. I think items work for survivor if they're like high-pressure adrenaline moment for survivor. when they're this slow-crawling type item, survivor over-time will grow dislike to the item over-time.
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@Boons123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3532961#Comment_3532961
Why should I waste so much time on two flamethrowers?
Just get destroyed and then enter a tunnel and regain his ability?
"But worth it" It's not worth it, a huge waste of time or he keep his power creates a lose-lose situation
i don't believe this lose/lose stuff. I am do not want to say that there is no situation where lose/lose will not occur but there is skill-cap in playing survivor to avoid lose/lose situations. Alien's attack is prediction based power. it is not your typical hand-holding special attack that most killer are.
@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3532961#Comment_3532961
He actually explained it plain and simple. If you need to double-up, you have effectively 2 turrets and HUGE time investment (so huge that it's net positive for killer).
My argument is, that on top of it the need to double up would screw soloQ, because it requires way more awareness/knowledge for soloQ then SWF. Making the killer another soloQ stomper
killer time is more valuable then survivor's time. some people exaggerate that and say it is like 4x more valuable which is not true. but i think it is like 1.5x-2x. you can always have at least 1 person on a gen when 4 people are alive. sometimes 2. the time sink is fairly minimal. the goal of the game is to survive as long as possible while trying to repair all 5 generators. turret are always going to be detriment to the killer when used correctly. it is simply how the game is designed. I often feel like survivor are just getting worse and worse over-time while killer players stay the same or adapt to any negative change. I wonder if it is because a lot of killer require very little learning on the survivor's part in intricacy to escape that whenever there is new mechanic, it becomes total shock. you just need little bit finesses and a bit game logic to waste killer's time with them.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3532546#Comment_3532546
Being able to instantly appear next to a survivor before they've even had a chance to move and attempt to hide or make their way to a loop is incredibly oppressive with zero counterplay, literally no chance to play, let alone counter. It's one of the things that often leads to an instant DC. It's simply not fair in any sense.
It's precisely why teleport killers have a cooldown at the start of the game and that's for a very good reason.
Xenomorph isn't a teleporting killer though, it's more similar to the likes of Billy or Nurse, and we all know how oppressive they can be with Lethal Purser. But Xenomorph does not need Lethal Pursuer to achieve this. They can rapidly scout out all the gens within the first 10-15 seconds of a game, and see footsteps, to pounce on a survivor before they've had a chance to do much if anything.
I said this isn't as bad on Xeno as it would be on someone like Dredge or Sadako if they could TP instantly, but it's half-way there. And my suggestion isn't all that restricting. Halving the initial tunnel speed, and increasing it gradually over x seconds, wouldn't 'feel' all that different for the killer, and it wouldn't be all that impactful, as after say 10 seconds it would be up to 11m/s and then 20 seconds it could be 14m/s, etc. It would simply soften that jump start. It would still be less restrictive than Dredge/Sadako's cooldown.
but they did have a chance to move. d/c on first down is one biggest survivor entitlement in this game. I do not really understand it and likely never will.
It's precisely why teleport killers have a cooldown at the start of the game and that's for a very good reason.
for very good reason. why? so killer can lose 3 gens in 1 chase? should killer d/c when their early game is sub-optimal?
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@Nun_So_Vile said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3533027#Comment_3533027
Yes, still no solid offical info on some things that are and are not intended. just want to know if hitting through objects is intended, and is the tail supposed to fit through the school bus gap similar to a hatchet?
it is intended. one of the dev explained how hitbox works on the tail attack during PTB. your intended to be able curve tail attack as form of heighten skill expression with the ability. the only aspect i can see changing for xeno is bloodlust build-up because none of killer powers work with bloodlust. they're always reset or disabled.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
Next to Wesker.
S - Tier = Nurse & Blight
A-Tier = Spirit, Artist, Wesker, Xeno
surprise you don't rate skull merchant very highly.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3532936#Comment_3532936
Xeno is pretty strong tho, i would put him next to Wesker.
bloodlust is most definitely a bug.. when other killer's use a special attack, the bloodlust resets to 0. he already has anti-camp mechanic. he crawls out of the control stations slower. I guess that is funny. insidious camping on xeno. who would ever think about that? the community sure finds some interesting... play-styles...
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@Gandor said:
https://youtu.be/AuMVJ7SHM8U?si=8e7GMwkQP8nTK9Bo
Everything in this video. The only thing I don't like is the possibility of doubling on turrets as intended counterplay as that basically screws over soloQ bad
how does it screw soloq bad? most maps have center generator. a center generator means that you get center control station. turret can be deploy from any control station. max is 4 turrets. the basic logic is that you can put turrets in center loops. that is why scott argument makes no sense because... your going to center control station, setting up 2 turrets on center pallet. your not going in the corner of a map, picking up a turret and walking entire map with a turret to set it up. your taking nearest control station and walking to nearest pallet to set it up. It is little bit like playing trapper as survivor. After that, you just run to the turret when you get chased. you knock off runner mode with very little time investment. the killer has to deal with double turrets. maybe he breaks a pallet. if he chases as m1 killer, then it is easy to loop.
after he talks about how you can go in tunnels to recharge your power and how your not losing any distance. well here's an idea... just stand between two control stations in the center. if xeno goes out on top location, you run other way. if he goes south, you go north. if he goes to any other control station, then there should be a turret near the gen so you get free distance because your running through turret and xeno has to path around it or break it. you will likely get notification by HUD that another survivor who was on a generator is being chased. in end game, when there are 3 gens... you can just stack all turrets in 1 area.
i think it is more that survivor is not understand how to use turrets to their advantage. you really do not need loop xeno in tail form the entire game. you can mostly just spam turrets. they have 60 second respawn time. it was 45 second in the PTB.
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it would be better if it just press E next to a gen within 2 meters.
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dark sense+wiretap+object of obsession+Scene partner is joke wall-hack build. it is not good build but you can spam wall-hack aura reading against the killer.
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hiding footsteps is kinda like hiding killer instinct. killer instinct is one of those mechanics that they specific invented to not be countered.
@Seraphor said:
I think they generally want to move away from perks and items that specifically counter killer powers. That's why blinding no longer effects Wraith/Nurse/Artist etc.
So I don't think simply hiding scratchmarks should also affect a killers power like this.
However, this isn't universal yet, for example Calm Spirit still counters screaming from The Doctors power.
So I could see that effects which suppress footsteps could result in Xeno not seeing footsteps in tunnels. So Ripley's perk for sure. But unless Boon: Shadowstep gains this ability too, I don't see why simply hiding scratchmarks should do the same.
pinhead chains and fixated/self-aware, clown/freddy vs vigil hindered. nemesis zombies and flashlight. I think trapper traps and hag trap still work with map item? there is definitely some interaction remaining. I think whole goal of these interaction is supposedly to increase perk variety but since survivor do not know when they are going against these killers, it becomes more like novelty. killer gets frustrated that their power is ineffective and survivor just got lucky with their perk load out.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
Maybe they finally fixed it that Skill Checks like these, which you get when you let go off a Gen, do not auto-fail.
However, even before on very rare occasions a Skill Check like this just did not auto-fail, but you just get the Skill Check-Notification. And I would guess it is one of those rare occasions.
no there was always grace period for skill-checks but it was like 0.2 seconds or something. some player used to refer that tech to gen-tapping hex:ruin but some people didn't understand tech and instead gen-tap entire gen....
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deathslinger 2.0 complaints on M&A. don't worry, there is mechanic called turrets that fixes that problem. learn to use it.
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@mikewelk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3532381#Comment_3532381
Bold of you to say it's easier to dodge when mathematically you cannot react fast enough to dodge the tail attack. Demo has a whole animation and sound cue. He's a B-tier killer according YOU with no imformation to back it up. Learn to argue and stop thinking your tier list is the same for every player.
it is same with demo. you cannot mathematically dodge a pointblank shred from demo. it is why a lot of player use STBFL on him. to dodge attack, it relies on opponent not aiming shred well. at further distances, the attack has travel time so it is more of prediction between survivor and killer however in certain situations, demo can make survivor respect the attack in attempt to dodge it but cancel attack to m1. that might as well be called the deathslinger effect. despite this, demo is still loses large % of games because you can entirely avoid mind game by dropping pallets which forces him to break it due to charge time. The pallet break is slow so survivor gets to next loop in most situations.
Xeno has no pallet break at base-kit. his entire game plan is outplaying dropped pallets. the stats he has on tail strike are justified for his gameplay style. Xeno makes pallet look like actual mind games where loops are fair interaction where killer is in the advantage for loop but survivor still has some opportunities to waste killer's time at said loops.
@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3532351#Comment_3532351
Why are you taking responsibility for everyone? How do you know no one is saying this?
But regardless, what you're asking for IS this very thing. You keep saying you want the attack to be telegraphed, so you can react to it, and dodge it. That's the whole point. If it could be reliably dodged, Turrets would be useless.
telegraphed tail strike would be like slinger shot. you always miss until survivor makes a poor play. by that time, all gens are done. you brute force win. no point in using turrets when the killer can be runner mode entire game and still loses to gen speed because the attack is ineffective.
I don't understand your tunnel change. your essentially complaining about lethal pursuer xeno. the idea that killer need slowdown at the start of trial makes little sense. that is something that many player have said that killer have no pressure at the start of the trial so suddenly a killer using a perk that disappears after 9 seconds is overpowered because he can get into chase quickly? he used perk slot to potencial get a strong early game. the very start of the trial for survivor is often identifying the nearest pallet to run to and identifying killer your going against. Xeno has control stations so half of the challenge is already done. Countering lethal is as simple as camping a pallet for 9 seconds. as soon as killer begins a chase or 9 second elapses, your free to work on gens/setup turrets. if you successfully deny first hit by dropping pallets, your essentially playing vs killer with 3 perk slots.
the other killer having cooldown like dredge or freddy on their TP is poorly thought out game mechanic that hurts killer early game then required. Only Sadako's makes any sense because of mori condemn mechanic. The others make a lot less sense.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3532252#Comment_3532252
If you are baby Xeno, yes turrets will hurt you. But after 10 - 15 matches, you will learn how to destroy them without losing power.
And turrets can not be placed everywhere, especially in indoor maps they are terrible bad.
So i can take killer's power with very garbage and counterable item. But my cost is very op killer power? This does not look like fair. This killer need to be nerfed or item need to be buffed.
this sounds a lot like your blight posts. xeno does spend time going around loops if he misses. xeno is possible to loop. Blight is also possible to loop. your complaining about blight and xeno being strong killers when the killer player is competent at using the ability to their peak potencial. it is like survivor player want killer's to have low kill potencial regardless of how good they are at using the killer so the escape is easy. the reverse of pay to win becomes pay to lose like freddy.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
The biggest problem with Nemesis is the zombies still have garbage AI, and BHVR added so many line of sight breakers to maps that the zombies are really bad at finding survivors. The zombies should be reworked to be much better at hearing (i.e. not affected by sound occlusion) and responding to survivor noises, even if it's just survivor footstep noises.
there is add-on's for that. admin wristband. it is just that zombies stats so bad that there is no real point in using add-on to improve them. I am pretty sure the zombies are meant to be a bigger part of his kit but they're just not really worth anything besides maybe a random tracking perk or a random hit that occurs.
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@Clockwork_Enigma said:
The Nemesis needs an overhaul. There is no doubt in my mind that the current version of Nemesis should be completely changed into something that is more in line with his character and less risk-free from design.
The current version of Nemesis is, in a way, an interesting take on him but it ultimately doesn't feel like the Nemesis that the players deserve to play as or against. He is not fast, he is not intelligent, he is just a character with an M2 that hits three times to down.
And as of 7.2.0, it is more apparent than ever that he needs to be reworked due to the existence of The Xenomorph and The Mastermind having something shared with him at least.
- The Xenomorph with an ability similar to Tentacle Strike but better in most situations.
- The Mastermind with the Vaccine mechanic changed to the First Aid Spray.
More and more time is passing and making Nemesis feel less unique and interesting to play aside from the few "quirks" that can make the game not feel fun for either side--zombies for Killers, anti-loop for Survivors.
So developers, this is an open letter to you, from at least me, in saying that Nemesis needs to be put on your list of Killers that need to be changed in a significant way. Not in the way of Ghost Face or Legion, but in the way of Doctor and Nightmare.
In my personal opinion, Nemesis needs to be completely changed into something more fundamentally unique and not resembling any Killer playstyle to date. Something that makes him still feel like the Nemesis we have now, but with something new added to him and many things removed to make him feel more like the Nemesis that people saw when playing Resident Evil 3.
What this is could ultimately be up to you, but Nemesis needs to be redesigned because of the fact that other Killers have taken his aspects and made them better by viability or design, and he already feels that much outdated compared to the new characters.
With that said, I ask that Nemesis be re-examined as a Killer and updated to feature something new and unique to him that makes him fully stand out as a Killer before he's even more outdated by the time of another Killer's release.
Nemesis is suppose resemble a killer that has brute strength and the idea of swarming survivors by a zombie apocalypse. It is just that both of those aspects are under-tuned.
the representation of brute strength is his pallet breaking. the issue is that his pallet break is not exactly very fast. both chainsaw killers take less time to break pallets and c33 blight represent brute strength better than the nemesis himself. Singularity also potentially represents brute strength a lot better. in term of hitting over loops, the crouching mechanic instantly erases any threat level on the whip. the 3 health-state is cherry on top. strange aspect of 3 health-states is that according to wiki, His whip applies 20% hindered effect for 0.2 seconds. So clearly down the line, his kit is suppose have mini-sbtfl effect where you gain less distance per health-states but once again the values are so bad that it is unnoticeable
His zombie apocalypse is 2 zombies. the dev said that reason why there is only 2 zombies is engine limitations. more zombies supposedly creates lag. AI is really hard to code so I think this aspect of the kit is more technical limitation. My guess is that it is something to do with AI getting stuck on maps but I have no clue. crates only have vaccines but perhaps they were suppose have guns or something.
the killer likely had a lot of ideas but none of them were implemented. Likely a time crunch issue or they simply decided to not put them in dbd. nemesis feels like a beta killer. lots of beta-type mechanics but none of them fully flesh-out.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3531885#Comment_3531885
I never said win. It gained value just by equipping the perk and playing the game.
It was absolutely overtuned in the 6.1 patch, and the amount of value was far too much. It didn't lose any meaningful power by healing one person, and there was no penalty built in for tunneling or one person early either. Those were added in the nerf.
And unlike DS, Thana is still powerful in some circumstances. Legion and plague, as others have mentioned, still gain full value from the perk... Especially now that healing nerfs have made the perk even stronger.
DS has no consistent situation where it can still shine. The perk is too weak to perform it's basic function with a 3s stun, 1.4s of which is animation locked for the survivor. So you gain 1.6 seconds of head start, which is beyond laughable, and trivial for any B tier killer or better. The conspicuous action and ecg nerfs to DS were fully justified tho.
the very first version of decisive strike was that whenever a killer pick you up from dying state, you can wiggle off killer's grasp stunning them for 4 seconds. there was no timer, no hook condition, no skill-check. nothing. I am just referencing your comment when you were talking about a perk that makes killer objective 25% longer. it was free 4th hook. later perk was changed to be obesssion perk and then changed again to require unhook and a timer that is more familiar towards today's version of the perk.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3531854#Comment_3531854
Then you agree that Thana was over tuned. That was my point.
a perk is only as good as the player who uses it. you make it sound like equipping thana was an instant win button.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3531832#Comment_3531832
The perk required nothing extra from the killer, just to play the game with the perk equipped. In return, you get a 22.5% increase in survivor objective work required.
For the two weeks between 6.1 release and the Thana nerf, it was in 100% of games. It effectively made gens go from 80 seconds pre patch to 112.5 seconds after patch, which was and is completely overkill.
Imagine if survivors had a perk that, after just playing the game normally, increased the killers hook requirements by 25% overnight. So after dropping 3 pallets or vaulting 3 vaults, the survivors gained an extra hook stage, up to 3. That would be used constantly and would be insanely over tuned. That's why Thana got nerfed as fast as it did.
Imagine if survivors had a perk that, after just playing the game normally, increased the killers hook requirements by 25% overnight
they did have that. decisive strike. it was one of strongest perks in dbd because it increased the total hook count from 3->4 by giving you an extra life/free wiggle off.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3531782#Comment_3531782
Put that on a killer that excels at keeping survivors injured and stack it with other slowdown perks, and yes, that is 100% an overtuned perk.
You surely can't be saying that the Legion and Plague Thana builds were okay for the game?
what was wrong about them? this game has killer like nurse and blight that have constant chase powers. plague acquiring corrupt puke the entire game is certainly stronger chase killer but it is by no means an auto-win for her and than you have legion who is entirely m1 killer and relies on survivor grouping to be effective. one of aspect that people always talk about is spreading and doing gens at the start of the trial. how is that not a counter to thana? thana's effectiveness is strongest at early game because with 5 gens with 0 progress means that you need to do 5 gens under the penalty. with 1 gen, you have a much less of penalty go through because it is just one gen. because you need get injures, thana on average has most strength in mid game which is around 2-3 generator marker because that is the point in the game where killer has injure pressure which thana is based off.
that is good summary of how gen defence perks work in the game. gen regression is strongest at 1 gen(see 3 gen skull merchant). gen-blocking is best at the start of the game and -action speed is more middle game. of course different people will have different opinions for what part of the game is most relevant for the killer to be successful at.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3531681#Comment_3531681
Yes it did, but it was also extremely overturned due to the other buffs in 6.1
Toning it down made it useless. This perk needed a rework.
adds 25 second extra on 0-100 gen if the killer injures the entire team for entire trial and survivors do not heal = over-tuned perk.
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@Zokenay said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3531682#Comment_3531682
It wont... traps make impossible to escape from, since not even Endurance saves you
lockdown trapper is most defining aspect of trapper. you can still escape in the basement. you can hold down a trap for a teammate, exit the basement while two teammates run through trap. i think it is more of gimmick than anything. a more reliable proxy basement camper is mint rag hag with make your choice. trapper is more about pallet lock-down and window lock-down. more of 3 gen type killer akin to skull merchant. all 3 killer are designed campers... but i guess they all excel at different styles of camping.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3531379#Comment_3531379
Thanatophobia is dull by design. It needed a rework no buff or nerf.
but it punished survivor for staying injured.
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@TickTackBoooom said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3529378#Comment_3529378
How about you just ignore turrets when you realize they are stacked? Most of the time its not that bad to be M1 for a moment.
yes. why don't killer just stop chasing the survivor randomly. that is definitely a winning strategy.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3531511#Comment_3531511
This wouldn't make chase perks not worth using, though, because no perk effects have actually changed. What it does is encourage you not to run the best options for everything all at once, because they would have anti-synergy.
You'd pick one of the best options - an Exhaustion or something like Resilience - and then pick other stuff for whatever else you want because it'd synergise better.
they tried that once with killer side. for example hex:ruin, pop and corrupt intervention. they made ruin over-time regression perk so it does not work with pop and try to impose anti-synergy with corrupt intervention. what happened? killer just ran all 3 of them.
on survivor side, if anti-synergy is discrete that there is 0% to use them together, they'll just pick best option and discard all other options. for example, run MFT and ignore DH/resilience then supplement the remaining perk slots with next best options.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3531475#Comment_3531475
But when you don't get to use Lithe, you start thinking about other possible combinations. In this situation, Made For This is the one sticking point because it's another best-in-class, but when that perk is inevitably nerfed and people almost certainly drop it en masse because they assume it's worthless, you'll start thinking about your other options.
Maybe you bring Quick & Quiet or another straight chase perk. Maybe you bring stealth to make up for being more vulnerable in chase. Maybe you bring Exhaustion and try to manage it, or pick an Exhaustion perk you use less frequently because it works out a little better. That's where the increase in variety would come from; if you can't easily use the obvious two best things together, you start looking at other combinations or nonstandard ways of making those two things work together.
(As an aside, Nurse had her basic attacks changed to special attacks because it was blatantly overpowered for her to get to use Exposed. It really had nothing to do with variety at all, it was a really straightforward balance change for balance reasons.)
Exhaustion perks don't have to be the obvious picks if they have anti-synergy with other perks, that's my point. If more strong and desirable perks had the Exhaustion condition, players would choose to use one or the other, increasing variety. Even in cases where they try to use both, that could be argued as a healthier outcome anyway, because at least they're trying something new with a little self-imposed challenge.
i don't think so. i think only way you can survivor not use exhaustion perks is if you just nerf all of them to completely worthless. stealth will not prominent in dbd because there is too much mechanics in dbd that prevent stealth from being worth it. the main one is scratch marks. the other two are cries of pain and blood pools. a side problem with stealth is tracking perks and some killer just counter stealth.
the result of making all chase perks not worth using is survivors just switching all their perks into gen-rush perks to do generator faster. Like if you cannot slow chase down then your only other method of reliably winning is doing objective faster.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3531379#Comment_3531379
Yes, the purpose is to remove its synergy with Exhaustion perks because those mitigate the downside of being injured quite a bit (at least insofar as being vulnerable in chase), which in turn makes the supposed tradeoff not exactly a huge factor when it comes to decision making.
What do you mean by "only" working with MFT, though? There are other chase perks that aren't Exhaustion based, some of which actually have inherent synergy with Resilience anyway. Take Quick & Quiet, for example; inherent synergy with Resilience, a chase perk, but not Exhaustion related.
I am personally of the opinion that while Exhaustion perks should be viable and strong, I don't think they should be the de-facto obvious pick for all builds no matter what. Builds that specialise in other things at the cost of making Exhaustion perks less reliable overall should, imo, be seen as a healthy and viable alternative if you want it. Sometimes, to increase diversity, you have to lower the absolute numbers of the current biggest pick, if that makes sense.
Lithe on nightlight has 17% usage rate. when Lithe is used, resilience is picked 17% of the time. adding exhaustion to resilience makes lithe does not work with resilience. the synergy of MFT and resilience remains same but other perk choices are more narrow. your not increasing perk diversity. your making perk diversity have a more narrow scope. in other words, your enforcing the meta. that is kinda what they do on killer perks. for example, a killer has unique build, say nurse with starstruck, they make nurse have special attacks so a unique perk that works well on nurse stops getting used. this enforces nurse to run meta perks.
I am personally of the opinion that while Exhaustion perks should be viable and strong, I don't think they should be the de-facto obvious pick for all builds no matter what.
exhaustion perks are design flaw in survivor's perk system. they will always be best perks for survivor because extending chases means that generator go faster and you survive longer as survivor. so you win faster as survivor and die less often simultaneously. as a result, they will always have highest pick-rate because they are the best perks. the only caveat to exhaustion perks is their reliability to trigger.
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@radiantHero23 said:
In the current state of dbd, resilience is a strong meta Perk.
This however has less to do with the Perk itself but more the game around it.
Multiple perks help out the survivor when staying injured. Made for this being the strongest one. This on top of longer healing times leads to most survivors just slamming gens injured because most killers lack the mobility or chase potential to stop them in time. If we disincentivise staying injured resilience's pickrate will drop eventually.
The Perk isn't the problem it's all the other perks and mechanics that make it strong.
you mean like thanatophobia? i am pretty sure perk got nuked 2 times. survivors said it was unfun.
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3531289#Comment_3531289
My thought process has a lot less to do with Resilience itself being overpowered, and more to do with how perks should be laid out to encourage healthier build diversity.
The Exhaustion condition on Iron Will and Made For This was a good move that should have, in theory, pushed players to think of other perks to synergise with beyond the otherwise-obvious choices. Considering it would fit Resilience, I think that might be a nice extra step in that direction.
exhaustion effect removes its synergy with other exhaustion perks. your reducing perk diversity by making res only work with MFT.
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I agree with ambient noise reduction. With how loud it currently is. He might as well have a lullaby in nightfall. The only aspect that I could think that needs improvement is his locker exits. he should exit lockers faster when using his teleport. It would improve his ability to ambush survivors in nightfall and cut survivors off at loops that have lockers that he can teleport on.
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the middle ground that he is missing is lack of 4vs1. it is much easier for survivor to go to a box to remove infection than it is for singularity to apply infection. he does not have enough dynamic information to apply infection pressure onto the survivor. Overclock is not particularly hard to outlast when only 1 person is infected. His overclock duration relies on many survivor being infected and map mobility also relies on survivors being infected. Both of those get canceled by passive EMP generation.
I think his 4vs1 skill-floor needs to be easier on killer side. At same time, if his skill-floor is lowered that he can just infect the entire team easily and outpace passive EMP generation, survivor might complain that he is too oppressive. only time will tell if BVHR decides to improve him.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3530674#Comment_3530674
3 seconds is loads for an attack cooldown.
For reference, Demo's Shred is 2.25 seconds and has a far bigger hitbox.
Huntress Hatchets are 2 seconds and have much greater range.
Nemesis' Tentacle is 2.2 seconds and has a charge time of 0.35 seconds, and only has to be aimed in one dimension.
Meanwhile Tail Attack has a narrower hitbox than Hatchets which are beach balls, is harder to aim than Tentacle or Shred, and has a longer cooldown than any other special attack in the game.
Why are you all refusing to use Turrets?
well said. I think it is perception problem similar green puke plague where some survivors see plague going at near full speed after green puke vommit and think they're going get hit so they do bad movement not realizing that plague cannot hit you. that sometimes always happens with doctor where doc uses shock therapy and some survivors do not realize that missing shock therapy -> cooldown where you can just run into the pallet/window as killer cannot swing.
@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3530590#Comment_3530590
To be fair, Xenomorphs power is pretty forgiving. Huntress has to reload if she misses too often and is 4,4m/s, while Xenomorph is 4,6m/s and does not need to reload.
if your missing all 5 or all 7 hatchets, your playing huntress pretty badly. xeno cannot break pallets like nemesis so he has to be good at landing hits when the pallet is dropped. that is his entire skill-cap. this is also same skill-cap as huntress but huntress has more versatility because she can shoot at loops and shoot between loops, so she has greater versatility in her ability. the drawback of course is 110% m/s for that versatility. slinger and trickster also share that versatility but their power are... questionable balance on power-level scale regarding countering hold-w.
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great perk to counter distortion users. might be bad perk if survivor start using calm spirit.
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difficult to solve. the point of hook regression is to make survivors go to the hook to save teammates. the unfortunate result of hook regression is killer camping because the reward for successfully camping is -1 hook states and an easy tunnel opportunity to remove someone out of the game. it creates racing dynamic where the killer can purposely give up early gens for 1 hook-state.
that is also why perks early game perks like corrupt intervention and deadlock are somewhat dangerous because they all boost early game on killer so that killer can not lose many gens in 1 chase to do his successful camp - > tunnel strategy. I think once they implement the anti facecamp/close range proxy camping, then strategy will be more risky to do. people will still proxy camp within 17 meters but the reward for skipping hook-states will occur less often which will encourage killer to leave hook because return on rewards for camping will be less rewarding. it will be easier to hook-trade.
dbd should encourage proactive offensive play. not hyper defensive turtling gameplay. hyper defensive turtling gameplay will always be somewhat part of the game with like hook camping hag but i don't think this type of gameplay is particular fun to against for survivor. at the same time, killers know this is competitively strong strategy so killer defend it. as result, i do not think that camping will magically disappear. Just be little harder to do then it is currently.
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@adaw0ng said:
I believe the tail hit will get nerfed to get a clear warning. Previously, this was an issue with Deathslinger and they changed it, so I believe and hope this will follow the same path.
that change destroyed slinger. i hope no other killer goes through that type of change. balancing around bad players will make the killer weak.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3530279#Comment_3530279
Right now I see it that you a, get bad xeno b, prerun so much you can safely predrop c, get hit. In these conditions - I will leave the loop immediately - because I know that going around the loop means hit with less distance then if I hold-W away. THAT IS SAD quite frankly. It means no chases or mindgames are possible, or you go against someone who doesn't know how to use the ability yet (and drag it over all the loops and things).
I sure got some bad Xeno's that can be looped. But once they learn how to drag the whip over all the loops, it's gg.
I sure got some bad Xeno's that can be looped. But once they learn how to drag the whip over all the loops, it's gg.
right... i do not agree. long chases are possible vs xeno.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3530089#Comment_3530089
Yeah... have you seen the reaction of the killer there because he should have hit you? That's the reason of why you should be hit if you are still in range.
Also, I'm going to bet that gif is from the time were the game was still P2P and lagging was even more of a problem that it is right now.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3530137#Comment_3530137
You are simply nuts, starting with that being almost 4 meters of jump and almost 5 meters for male (if you pay close attention, the fence over the wall have 16 bars coming from the center of the pillar, and if the wall is 8 meters then 2 bars means 1 meter). Are survivors able to fly now, apart of being olympic runners thanks to haste perks?
Also, besides from the fast vault being significantly fast than a slow or even medium vault (0.5 seconds to complete vs 0.9 / 1.5 seconds, respectively) there is no mention anywhere of a "minimum distance" for the vault, much less that it guarantees you enough distance to being out of the reach of the killer.
What the momentum means is that first, you need a minimum distance running to reach the enough momentum to do a fast vault, as not survivor or the killer accelerates to their maximum speed instantly afaik (in fact, lounge attack distance is also affected by momentum, meaning that if I walk for a couple of seconds before doing it it would reach further). That, and on patch 2.5.0 they implemented this:
- Survivor Quality of Life: Survivors now retain their momentum after Vaulting, instead of it being reset to 0 as previously.
And what that means is that if you would maintain your speed the moment you finish any of the vaults, so if you have maximum speed when vaulting (AKA fast vault) you would have instantly max speed when you are at the other side, so it will be more easy for you to get out of reach in conjunction with the fast vault only taking 0.5 seconds to complete.
In conclusion, fast vaulting never had anything to do with gaining a lot of distance or making you unable to get hit, but giving you the chance to get away faster without guaranteeing that you are not going to get hit, as it is logical and is how it has to be. Taking this in count, if they add distance to fast vaults both male and females (for Trapper reasons) should look something like this:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/SJBOQ4YHV5YO/attackconesvault.jpg
1.5 meters of jump made in 0.5 seconds and max speed on finish that also count haste effects so you have more than enough time to get out of there. And if you don't, then maybe you should have go for a pallet as I was literally breathing on your neck. Powerful, but fair, not going flying 5 meters away though the window because you don't like to get hit.
getting hit after finishing fast vault is unfair hit for the killer.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3530219#Comment_3530219
Idk, I think it's fine the way it is now, it already got buffed to 2 minutes. The change in this update actually makes it possible to reliably use Repressed Alliance with it again like you could originally, since Repressed still works like it did before with being on the generator to block it. So if you're willing to use 2 perks for it you can make it unremovable for a little while.
Also I wouldn't say barely anyone uses Wiretap, it's not meta but I still see it more often than a lot of other perks.
i think two perks are a little bit too high commitment. I am just saying a buff to those perks would not hurt.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3530169#Comment_3530169
that is how pallet should be. they should mindgame tools to outsmart the killer.
No. The game is boring if it's just about hold-W and predrop. The game is fun, when there's possibility for mindgames and looping. But if you are guaranteed to get hit - then you need to be outright stupid to try to loop (mindgame, not leave the loop, not hold-W). If there's no possibility to outsmart, because killer can hit you reliably on reaction, then you can't loop. I am not talking about going for 50:50. I am saying not going for 100:0 (also known as 15s chase which is exact opposite from 5gen chase).
you sound like your asking for 100% reliable ocunter-play that always wins
No. I am asking for counterplay where I get at least 50% chance instead of 0% change to escape, because killer has on-reaction reliable hits.
No. The game is boring if it's just about hold-W and predrop. The game is fun, when there's possibility for mindgames and looping.
Xeno going around drop pallets is looping and mindgames. in term of pallet breaking, that is likely an issue because throughout dbd history, the dev have reduced the time to break pallets making pallet breaking more rewarding than looping. like a lot of the time, it is simply faster to break pallets then loop around them to get hits. I do not see how this is Xeno problem.
i have not played against xeno as survivor enough times to judge but i have escaped all xeno's because my team are generally gen efficient. your post sounds like a skill issue.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3529851#Comment_3529851
They removed the part from Blast Mine and Wiretap’s descriptions saying that you need to repair for 3 seconds to install the trap. So I think it’s actually an intended change.
They did also do a bugfix on them from the PTB so you are not allowed to install the traps on generators with no progress (which would’ve prevented the killer from damaging the generator to remove Wiretap). I am not sure whether you can apply the trap to a blocked generator.
would wiretap be too strong if it was not possible to remove? barely anyone uses it. i wonder if it would be fine to buff it a little more.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3529641#Comment_3529641
But this is the main issue - once you learn to play Xeno well, there's literally NOTHING as a survivor you can do to even try to loop him. You will just get hit on almost every loop in a game - and for those loops where you don't get hit immediately, you still need to pre-drop immediately.
Basically it means you can only shift-W and hope that somehow your team will get gens done in time anyway - because slowing down at like 90% of loops in game means you just got hit. That's god-tier-nurse-level oppressive - but Xeno has more map mobility (tunnels are quicker then blinks on large maps) and no edge map counterplay. The only thing that holds him back a little are turrets that take up long time to set up, take long time to respawn, but can be reliably deleted for m2's worth of cooldown (during which you still move at 50% speed).
Like try to play against that and tell me any possible counterplay against good xeno. Because I see literally nothing you can do. The only thing you can hope for is getting the game (possibly the only map that consists of only tall structures with pallets you can predrop). Any other map is instant gg against xeno that learned his whip. But even Gideon will not contain enough pallets to fix all gens in time (since it got nerfed now quite a long time ago).
But this is the main issue - once you learn to play Xeno well, there's literally NOTHING as a survivor you can do to even try to loop him. You will just get hit on almost every loop in a game - and for those loops where you don't get hit immediately, you still need to pre-drop immediately.
that is how pallet should be. they should mindgame tools to outsmart the killer. the summary of your post is that if killer is really good at playing their killer, the killer should go on 5 gen chases. I don't think you should ever going on 5 gen chases as survivor unless killer player is like brand new and just misses swings out in the open or something.
Like try to play against that and tell me any possible counterplay against good xeno. Because I see literally nothing you can do. The only thing you can hope for is getting the game (possibly the only map that consists of only tall structures with pallets you can predrop). Any other map is instant gg against xeno that learned his whip.
you sound like your asking for 100% reliable ocunter-play that always wins.... like super safe pallets that block your way. inherently, counter-play is meant to not be reliable. that is very thing that killer dislike playing against. safe stuff. it is almost like you have to... you know... outplay killer and try make killer make a mistake? crazy idea.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3529528#Comment_3529528
... 3 meters? So you are able to jump further than the height of the tallest person when vaulting? Because if not, it's the first notice I have that the meters of the game are not somewhat at "scale", as that would be more than a "Wraith" of distance.
Either way, I said that because I thought he meant that it was a bug that the Alien was able to hit the Ada in the video. And again, I don't really care what distance any of the vaults has, but if you are at attack range you should get hit, no matters in what point of the vault you are or if you have finished it and are at the other side of the window.
And just for reference, this is in theory the hitbox (as I didn't find any more sources of the actual range):
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/KRIAVVNO55WO/attackcones.jpg
BTW, also for reference and in theory, there are exactly 8 in-game meters from the center of one of the pillars to another of the wall in the image. I doubt that survivors are supposed to vault almost half of that wall there.
the way vaults are suppose to be is where purple line is. medium vaults are suppose to be where yellow line is. the bug they had in previous update was that male vaults were where orange line is. they needed to move distance a bit back to purple line. I remember someone talking about vaults at one point in a patch note.
it was long time ago where they buffed medium vaults momentum. they called the mechanic momentum. I do not remember which dev talked about that. they buffed medium vaults at one point to be 0.9 instead of 1.1. I believe this was the time around clown's release. In any case, momentum is how far you get propel forward after completing a vault. fast vaults are meant to be max momentum such that when you complete it, you do not get hit by killer m1 swing. medium vaults are medium momentum. you still get hit but your directly next to the window. slow vaults have no momentum. you will be directly next to the window after a slow vault.
I personally do not like these medium and fast vault mechanics because the loops lose symmetry where if you are on counter-clock wise part of loop, like say shack, you can react to medium vault window vault on pallet side because of how slow medium vaults are. not a big fan of vaulting mechanics in the game but I can understand the mechanic for why it was invented. I prefer reading my opponent and winning mind games at every turn. at same time, a lot of m1 killer have too weak of a base-kit to challenge loops and gen speed to hook ratio is not that fair for killer. in that sense, medium vaults are fair. this is just mini-rant on my thoughts on vaulting in the game. this is whole separate discussion on a different topic.
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@Th3Nightmare said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3529402#Comment_3529402
I gave another example, it's a shame... that they released it like that.
i love it mobility, but this is super annoying for me, sooo... i hope in the next hotfix will be fix.
this was a problem in the ptb where you hit the floor and the hitbox vanishes. my tip to playing xeno is to look up before you press m2 then move your invisible cursor like a X. you should hit survivor before the drawing of the X hits the ground. whether you need to draw from left to right or right to left will vary based off loop/area.
the big advanced skill-cap that i am still trying to master on Xeno is hitting over objects. drawing an X in your head is easy when survivor is out in the open, but hitting over a wall requires timing to hit over the wall. that is going to take me at least 1 month of practice on every map before I understand how to hit over each loop on every map.
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@Gandor said:
Turrets can be countered just by noticing them and M2-ing them. What can't be countered is that lingering hitbox of a shoot ability, that can hit anything a deathslinger can, but can still turn miss into a hit.
His runner mode is super oppresive. I didn't care that turrets can be reliably deleted before, but considering there are very few loops where trained xeno can't hit you very quickly.... Turrets definitely need buffs or alternatively his M2 needs to be nerfed to indeed do only as much as people in this thread think it does (basically make it no better then nemesis's whip)
runner mode requires mechanical precision, situational awareness and timing to be used effectively. Xeno has deep skill-ceiling for a player to master. runner mode should be super oppressive when the killer has mastered the ability. weakening his m2 just makes him a free escape.
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it causes problems because killer can spam cancel pallets so survivor does not know when they should go to another pallet because they will be hit before they reach next pallet. this is already somewhat of a prominent issue with pallets that are in the corner of the map and an issue with brutal strength/killer with base-kit pallet break abilities.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3529355#Comment_3529355
If you stand in front of it, how it is a bug that you can be hit through, again, an open and unobstructed window.
Again, I don't care if they add more distance to the vault so it help you getting away from the window quicker, but if you are inside my attack range I don't care in what side of the window you are, you should get hit for many reasons, starting because it's the logical thing.
your not suppose to be standing on front of a window after completing vault. your suppose to be like 2-3 meter ahead window after finishing fast vault. you can only hits survivor after completing a vault if the vault is medium vault or slow vault. they need to fix the bug or just revert change. it was already fixed. they just needed to reduce distance for male survivors.
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missed cooldown for most attacks is like 10% m/s. his cooldown makes complete sense because he is suppose looping around pallets because his power does not break pallets like nemesis. the killer does get punishing for missing because he did not get the hit. you just cannot hold shift-w mindlessly and transition between loops for him missing.
@GrimReaperJr1232 said:
This is a fallacy
Her cooldown is 3 seconds, which is pretty standard. What's different is her movement speed. She seems to retain more than the stated 2m/s in the patch notes.
it definitely feels around 50%. you move a lot slower than survivor but your not completely stuck in place like regular m1 attacks. they should implement 50% on all basic attacks. the attack feels much smoother. what I find funny while playing xeno is how this speed exaggerates the survivor that optimize distance vs those that have poor movement when getting hit. it is like mini-sbtfl vs weaker players.
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@Steakdabait said:
Yea, it wasn't needed lmao why is bhvr so scared of making killers have punishment when they fail with their power lmao
it is because of turrets. when you m2 a turret, you suffer missed attack cooldown. to weaken double turret situation for xeno, they made it so that if your on very edge of two turrets, you can m2 a one turret, then walk back outside of radius of 2nd turret, then m2 2nd turret. the survivor still get massive hold-w distance but at least you do not get kicked out of your tail form by force like in the PTB.
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@Batusalen said:
For the million time, the "new" fast vaults were bugged to the point of softlocking the tutorial and making survivors invincible while vaulting.
And in my personal opinion, I don't care if they made the vaults give you more distance as long as I can still hit you if you are in attack range, even if you are at the other side. I don't know why is so strange to you all that the killer is able to hit you through an open window to the point of wanting an invisible field on it.
your not suppose to be able to m1 through window after completing fast vault. your suppose to teleport further away from window after finishing vault. for fast-vaults, killer should only be able to hit you DURING the vault animation. not after animation is done. in conclusion, they still have not fixed the vaulting bug for females.
@averagemikaelamain said:
https://twitter.com/HensDBD/status/1696689989029863535?s=20
Huge distance,huge speed. Hooray to all the killer mains that cried about imaginary i-frames.
Male survivors still vault further btw
if the killer cannot hit you after finishing vault for the males then males vaults are working correctly.
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@[Deleted User] said:
I think they're really frustrating and pull you out of your power for way too long. I just don't think the concept of giving survivors the ability to cancel a killer's power is a good one. They should be able to counter it, but not straight up cancel it for a length of time a la Singularity and Xenomorph. This forces the killer into a lose-lose. You either lose efficiency to work around it or try to bludgeon your way through, but there's no counter to the counter, just mitigation. It's just frustration by design against high level players.
that is exactly how i approach playing those killers. I bludgeon my way through their negatives to come out on top.
@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3528993#Comment_3528993
Yeah, that's the thing about these types of mechanics. A mid to low level survivor won't be efficient with a flame turret or EMP and they won't wreck games. It turns into an advanced form of body blocking in high level lobbies. I already have survivors running to teammates who drop flame turrets and then also tank a hit if need be.
precisely. advanced body-blocking is unfun. it makes those killer much harder to enjoy due to constant setback when used by experienced survivors.
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ultimate weapon Oni is funny. you go into your power, open a locker and you are moving sonar with instant downs. the perk name is very fitting for Oni.