Devil_hit11
Devil_hit11
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@dugman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3208627#Comment_3208627
No, going up and down in MMR isn’t an official “you win the match” definition. If it were then not only would all the survivors win or lose completely separately but also the killer would have no way of actually knowing if they won or lost the match in the end because their MMR is hidden. If I kill two players and two escape I have no idea if my final MMR went up or down because the amounts it went up or down for each kill and escape vary based on factors like the relative MMR of the opponent at the time and the order of the kill and how long the match was.
You’re trying to shoehorn the current MMR system into a definition of which side won the match when it’s not intended to be used that way.
it is winning and losing the match. in every game, whenever your MMR raises, it is considered winning and when your MMR drops, its considered losing.
If it were then not only would all the survivors win or lose completely separately but also the killer would have no way of actually knowing if they won or lost the match in the end because their MMR is hidden
that is exactly how it works right now. Survivors win and lose completely separately. All 3 of your teammates can die right now but you can still win by escaping through exit gate. This is what patrick's explanation was talking about. Conversely, you can have 3 of your teammate escape who all win, but you can be left on the hook because you got chased last in the end and your teammate can leave you so you will lose MMR. MMR is hidden. it is indeed true that you have no way of knowing if you lost the match or won the match. Its because your not suppose to care about whether you win or lose since entire purpose of MMR is for matchmaking purposes.
Before the emblem system, there used to be something called the victory cube and it worked similarly to how you see MMR currently. They do not show MMR to prevent belittling other players for being lower mmr and to prevent belittlement of the matchmaking system e.g showing screenshot of rank 1 killer vs 4 purple rank survivors in old emblem system.
@Gandor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3208842#Comment_3208842
And here I disagree. I see 0 reason why 2 escaping should be rare. It should be either fair to both parties (hence 50:50 chance to kill = expectation of 50% killrate), or survivors as a team should win = 4 out or they lost. I see 0 reason why "2 surviving should be rare". It makes 0 sense. Why? Just to make it easy for killers to be unfair to survivors? I see no other reason why I should expect to loose.
opening exit gate should be rare. 3 survivors escaping would require the survivor to open exit gate almost every game for 50% win-rate. that is how it is for SWF and higher MMR. you will be winning like 70% of the matches with that idea as survivor. Its still somewhat like that especially for high-level SWF. It occurs like that for solo vs most of the killer because of how weak a lot of killers truly are when the survivor is competent at the game. Unfortunately, BVHR balances around incompetent survivors because that is the majority.
@Ayodam said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3207814#Comment_3207814
While there’s overlap, killers perform best at low to mid ranks and struggle at high ranks. So killers (both new and veteran) 3-4K easiest against newer survivors (low to mid ranks), not experienced survivors (mid to high ranks). Survivors perform poorly at low to mid ranks (failing to escape), but perform better at mid to high ranks (consistent escapes). Balancing low ranks would mean survivors require more enhancements. Balancing at high ranks means killers need that attention.
i agree with this post. I think killer can dominate low players without a killer power and just normal 115% m/s. At middle-level the killer requires a power but the survivor lacks the fine intricacies of the power so the balance of power does not matter too much. At higher-level, the intricacies of the killer power matter a lot and the killer relies a lot more on the power to be effective because how much better the looping vs 115% is and how much more generator efficient the survivors are at the game. there's less time to chase and it is harder to chase making it hard for most of the cast to perform. huge struggle to play weaker killers.
I just think that generator efficiency is not as optimized for soloq because soloq lacks the coordination in doing healing and generators in efficient time manner despite the looping being fairly similar. As a result, I think that most of the truly high MMR struggles for killer when the killer faces a strong team is SWF. This is why I think that when killer become stronger, they first become stronger to consistent beat soloq and only then have lesser chances to beat strong swf's.
This is all just my opinion in regards to killers.
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@Gandor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3208453#Comment_3208453
I think you are VERY greedy now. Again why 2 escape is win for 2 and draw for other 2? Why isn't it loose for 2 killed and draw for 2 that escaped? Again. I think it makes more sense to define anyone from survivor died as survivor loss then your I killed 3 and barely won as a killer.
If anything - survivor team did well only if everyone escaped. You wouldn't call it a win for survivors if your friend died. So 2 out is DEFINITELY not survivor win. But to be fair to killers (because making most of games kill nobody because in some games you can kill 4) it is fair to go with 2 kills as a draw. Even if from logical point of view any survivor dying should be considered tragedy and NOT a team win. Anything more then 2 gate out and 2 killed is pure greed from killer's side.
It is totally unacceptable to consider 2 out as a win for survivors. If anything I would rather consider killer's win if he killed anyone, because survivors lost to save their teammate. No way in hell could your definition be considered a win under ANY reasonable circumstances. You still didn't give me single reason why that should be so
survivors need to play as a team and its supposedly more difficult for 4 players to play perfectly to escape the killer then it is for killer to be successful at killing survivors. The killer getting kills is almost a given as the killer is suppose to be stronger in the 1vs1 compare to 4vs1. the difficult of escaping the killer is suppose to be so great that you often need martyr your own teammates for others to escape. contrary to your opinion, your friend dying for your ability to escape is intended. from gameplay perceptive, that is exactly how you defeat camping killers in the game. You let your teammates die on hook to get generator progress so that you can escape while leaving your teammates behind.
The survivor need to play perfectly for all 4 survivors to escape for the max MMR but they should not need to play perfectly to win. the survivor's objective is to upset the killer's victories. Their objective is not to flawless the killer. The survivor has low expectations to escape so when they do escape, its suppose to be like wow, that was impressive! if the killers are strong and the killer player is good, two survivors escaping should be difficult while 3 survivors escaping should be rare. 4 survivors escaping should very rare.
The killer have win conditions that are very black and white. they either successfully killed majority of the team or failed to do so. In terms of 3 and 4 kills, there is very little difference between the two outcomes. Killers typically slug the 3rd survivor to get 4th survivor in attempt to mitigate the hatch rng and exit gate spawn rng. The hatch mechanic and exit gate spawns is largely luck based with very little skill component in it. The killer that gets 3 kills is not that much better than the killer that get 4 kills. Barely winning for killer does not exist. Killers win or lose with nothing in between. Survivors have more complicate variations in winning because the team aspect of the game.
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@dugman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3208526#Comment_3208526
You’re confusing MMR going up and down based on individual performance with winning the match. If a killer kills two people and two people escape by your argument they won twice and lost twice because their MMR went up twice and down twice. Likewise if two survivors are killed and two escape did the survivors win as a group or lose as a group?
MMR going up and down isn’t the devs officially saying whether the killer “won a match” or the survivors as a group “lost the match”. It’s strictly a balancing mechanism to help make matches closer, that’s its only purpose. And the video you linked, which I’ve seen already, doesn’t say anything different.
in the killer current system, the killer wins twice and loses twice. the survivors that died lost mmr and the survivor that escaped through exit gate gained MMR.
in the system i am describing, the killer loses twice. He does not gain any MMR. He only loses MMR. The survivors that escaped through exit gate still win MMR, but the survivors that were left behind do not lose any MMR. they don't gain any because they died but they do not lose anything. I would say survivor won as group but they did not dominate the killer. they just met the bare requirements to not lose.
MMR going up and down isn’t the devs officially saying whether the killer “won a match” or the survivors as a group “lost the match”.
If you gain MMR in games. that counts as winning the match. If you lose MMR in games, it counts as losing the match. In some sense, I am describing draws but only for the survivor. the survivor should not be required to get all 4 people out in every single trial. they just need get 2 or more people out. 2 people escaping means that the killer failed to kill the majority of the team. The difference between 2 survivors escaping, 3 survivors escaping and 4 survivors escaping just reflects how much the survivor team dominated the killer. for killer, 3 and 4 kills is nearly the same thing in dbd. it only describes how much the killer dominated the match. that is why kill-rate is somewhat misleading since killer can have like many games in a 2k, but only single game as 4k.
For example, if you have 4 games that are 2k's and 1 game that is 4k. the killer's win-rate is 1/5, 20% but the killer's kill-rate is 48%. this is why 47% escape and 53% kill-rate in previous patches was very low in my opinion. kill-rate means very little while win-rate give a lot more information.
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@smartemarte said:
Does anyone else think that the chains shouldn't be able to be spawned right ontop of the survivors?
The killer literally doesn't have to aim it and it instantly hits the survivor, surely this isn't how its supposed to be designed? you can't dodge what spawns right onto of you. A lot of players I'm matched with just DC or die on first hook to him and it's not because they're good killers it's just because its an irritating mechanic without it almost being an auto hit if the killer isn't stupid.
the literal mindgame of his chains is predicting where the player is aiming his gateway. The stronger survivors that I chase as pinhead typically run into the gateway spawn location so when you go into his gateway, you will fire the chain forward while they are behind you.
survivors do not even get punished for not understanding his ability because of how terrible the chain durability is. I have hit survivors like 4-5 times in a row with his chains in a straight line and still did not get a single hit from the chains ability. the chains break too quick
My impression is that your asking for survivors to gain indicators for where pinhead spawns the gateway but that is like showing where nurse is blinking before she is blinking. it kills the mindgame of the killer.
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@FrostySeal said:
I've always wondered why the Devs always seem to be so incredibly inconsistent with Killer add-ons. On one hand, you have Killers like Artist and Phead who have mostly awful addons with one a very select few that are actually useful, then you have other Killers like Blight whose add-ons are almost all extremely good with only a couple here and there that are bad. I didn't wanna make this post to complain about Killers like Blight who have really good addons, in fact, I really like Killers who have really good addons like him because it makes me feel like there are multiple different playstyles I can choose and I'm not limited to just one or two options like some other Killers. I wanted to make this post to talk about how Killers with bad add-ons deserve to get their add-ons reworked to at least be useable.
different dev's. Mclean designed blight's add-on and he put a lot of thought in killer. blight is 10/10 in term of gameplay design, balance and add-on design.
The other killers probably get rushed heavily, so their add-on are often very random. I guess they just throw dart on the board and base their usefulness of an add-on based how much like they like the killer.
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@dugman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3208401#Comment_3208401
No, they didn't define the killer winning the match. By your first paragraph you're saying the devs said the killer wins twice if they killed two survivors which is silly.
And baseball games can end in draws in rain outs. In particular, in the MLB, if two teams are playing each other and tied, and this is at the end of the year and neither team is scheduled to play each other again that year, and the game has no effect on the playoffs structure, then if the game gets called due to a rain delay it can be ended as a tie with no rematch.
i am not making this up. it is what was explained in the new years anniversary stream. that is how they calculate your MMR currently. it's decent system for killer. for survivor, its unintentionally harder to gain MMR than its really suppose to be but they did say they will consider adding team-based mmr for survivor so that ranking for survivor is easier. Killer has much easier time currently keeping MMR than they're suppose to be.
if you looped the killer for 5 gens and died, you might not lose MMR in the future if your overall team performed well as result of your excellent chase gameplay. People can stop memeing Patrick with hockey after the survivor mmr is slightly more refined. Killers are going to lose more often, but at least they are improving killer ever so slightly, so silver lining on that front.
Edit: I went on youtube to find the footage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQ7HT0QnUdYyou can watch this video for their explanation for what is win.
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@Gandor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3208401#Comment_3208401
Because only killers can't accelt draws and you are another one with this mindset. But ok. Let's go at it your way. Survivors win if at least 3 get out. Everything else is lost game. Now let's ask devs to rebalance game around this premise.
And no. I see no reason why I should take your 3k as killer barely win. It's your idea so you should be fine with 3 out being survivors barely won if you don't provide at least as good reason as I provided you for 4 out being only acceptable win for survivors (you would not be happy of event where someone you met died).
they win if two survivor escape. the two survivor that escape go up in MMR while other two draw. the reason for draws is that killer would have little reason prevent survivors escaping if all 4 survivor gained MMR. Like this, you technically gain MMR as killer for killing as many players in form of the draw and survivor has incentive to try get all 4 survivor out, but its not completely obligatory. In some cases, its not possible... like leatherface facecamping hooks etc.
In regards to camping. I think purpose of camping was to create time pressure for survivors to unhook their teammates. The idea fails spectacularly. The regression on hooks incentivized the killer to stay at hooks and disincentivize survivors to unhook survivor as result of camping. In fact the best counter to camping is to just leave your teammates on hooks and be ahead of the generator objective compare to the hooking objective. It creates weird racing dynamic of survivors completing generators vs the killer stand still at a hook.
Overall, they did try to create perks to extend hook timers like reassurance but killer complained about it. Personally, I do not think hooks should regress during the game and should only regress after 5 generator are done to prevent 99% exit gates but that is just my opinion.
In regards to tunneling. Killers tunnel because individually hooking survivor offers no reward for the killer. A survivor that is on 2 hook-states is as powerful at doing generator as a survivor on 0 hook-states, so from strategic perceptive, there is zero purpose in ever leaving a survivor alive. Killing the survivor is best form of slowdown for the killer making it the most popular and potent strategy in killer's arsenal in my opinion.
tunneling is related to win-condition for killer. I do not see anything changing in regards to this unless the killer win condition in regards 3 hook=death for the survivor changes. part of the problem comes from killer getting no rewards for isolated hooks which killers have often asked for slowdown perks that trigger on hooking. the idea behind slowdown perks is that these perk overwhelm the survivor if the killer is successful at the chase, but lose potency if the killer is looped for long time. issues with those perks is that you can use tunneling and camping to strength those strategies. Due to their wide-spread use, they have received negative changes, though some of them remain effective.
The only way I can see killer not tunneling is by removing the need to tunnel to win. I think only perk that does that is devour hope because devour hope groups all survivors hook-states and sets it to a single number. in DE, it is set to 5. With that perk, you can hook anyone and as long you reach 5 hooks, you will be able to kill survivors regardless of who you hooked to get to 5. you can tunnel but there is no difference in chasing one survivor from another in term of reward. The perk is a hex so its too unreliable, so in the end killer just tunnel because tunneling is certainty instead of relying on the bad rng totem spawns.
Overall I do not see anything changing in regards to these two strategies. they're part of the game and your better off just improving your chase as survivor to make tunnelling ineffective and doing generators efficiently to reduce effectiveness of camping.
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@dugman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3208327#Comment_3208327
Draws do exist in real games. Baseball games can end in draws for example when they're rained out. Soccer matches can end in ties depending on the rules of the respective tournament. Many boardgames can end in ties. It's not nearly as uncommon you're claiming.
Also DbD unfortunately has no clearly defined victory conditions regardless, the devs never have said what constitutes a killer winning a game versus the survivors winning the game versus the game being too close to call. So when a bunch of players feel it ended in a tie after 2 kills that's just as valid an opinion as saying the person with the most bloodpoints wins the match or every survivor who escapes wins and every survivor who dies loses and the killer only wins if they got the most bloodpoints, or whatever other system people come up with.
they did define by winning and losing in dbd. for killer, the killer wins if they kill a survivor by any means. the survivor wins if they escape through exit gate. the killer one is fine. the survivor one needs a bit of work because their system currently works like battle royal game instead of team-based game which survivor is team based game.
baseball does not have draws. they have something called extra innings. its similar to over-time in soccer or over-time in hockey. like with the other two sports, you can have 100 extra innings. games really do not have draw's. they are usually trying to avoid draws unless unavoidable like chess. I do not know much about board games besides classic monopoly. There is no reason for dbd to have draw's so I have no clue why anyone talks about that.
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@Gandor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3208327#Comment_3208327
And what about making both roles equal and getting rid of cheap game breaking camping and tunneling, to get 50% kr AND wr. Both should be possible. Also killer camping and tunneling is long-time survivors complaint so current status is not OK. (If you prefer to leave it the way it is, then you are satisfied with bad game)
i would say camping and tunnel is describing the killer's win conditions. what do you want to change about it? Camping is by product of regressing hooks and the action of camping is standing near 24 meters of hook with intention to push a survivors hook-state from 1->2 or 2->3.
Tunneling is action of tunneling hook-state onto single survivor. saying the killer should not tunnel is saying they should hook every survivor 2 times first, before killing anyone. Not tunneling is least efficient way to win the game as killer.
I am not sure what your complaining about within these two strategies for killer. Virtually every single dbd game has these two actions. I have no clue what your trying to fix. you need more details to explain what is game-breaking about these two strategies? what should dbd change to make you happier in regards to these strategies?
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@dugman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3207865#Comment_3207865
Your opinion on 2 kills not being a draw is just your personal view on what should of shouldn’t be considered basically a tie. The game itself and the devs don’t actually give any clear guidelines on what constitutes a win or a loss. And a lot of people think 2 kills is a tie.
And yes, DbD is VERY different in that it doesn’t have a clear win condition for killer and survivors, it’s one of the main design flaws of the game in my opinion. Not having a clearly spelled out win condition for both sides leads to some of the issues people complain about frequently, including things like this very thread.
a draw in games means is no conclusive result. In hockey , for example, if you have even score, like 1-1. in order to resolve inconclusive result, you have over-time until someone scores. Main issue with that is you can have an endless amount of over-times, so in order make the result faster, the teams conclude to do something called shoot out. Its faster to do shoot out then it is to go to endless over-times, however in finals, there is endless over-times.
The same logic is used in soccer. you play for 90 minutes, then you have over-time and if over-time does not produce a conclusive result, then you have shootouts.
draws do not really exist in games. they exist in chess because..... well there is no way progress the game in chess so stalemate exists but in dbd, one side can always progress the game and your objective as killer is to kill all survivors as killer or escape the killer as survivor.
@Gandor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3207865#Comment_3207865
Someone dying is survivor's loss. Imagine, that you find yourself and your family in trial. Would you settle for anything but getting everyone unscratched out as a win? No? Then 3 out is survivor's loss and balancing team should adjust killrate like this (so 20% killrate should be the target).
Is that unfair to killers? So is your 2 out killer loose lookout. Stop being unfair pls.
Ok. So make suggestion in a way, that at least 1 person gets out more often. My idea is to spawn open hatch when only 1 person is still standing (and another one is being slugged). Because any game that expects you to loose (the odds are, that you will get killed) is inherently unfair. And this is pvp not pve, so the game should not be unfair to any 1 side
someone dying equals survivor's loss is weird dev design in for survivor mmr system. somehow they concluded that everyone survivor is doing 1vs1vs1vs1vs1 as we are playing battle royal games. survivor is 4vs1 so their scoring system needs have some team element. in order to not encourage survivor to die, i think best way is to make it so that survivors draw when they die if 2 survivor get out and survivor gain MMR if they go outside exit gate.
4 escape = killer loses most mmr
1 kill, 3 escape = killer loses 3 values of mmr and 1 survivor loses no mmr(null)
2 kills, 2 escapes = killer loses 2 value of mmr, 2 survivors lose no mmr(null)
3 kills and 1 escape = killer wins 3 values of mmr, 1 survivor draws for escaping the random hatch or too far exit gates.
4 kills = the killer wins 4 values of mmr.
Its easier to gain MMR as survivor then killer but supposedly, the killer is the stronger role so they're favoured to win. Funny enough, most of killer powers in dbd are pretty... weak but it is what it is.
Generally i would assume kill-rate would be around 60/40 because killer can a lot of garbage kills like 1-2 in losing games and a lot of extra kills in end game, but I would guess that the overall win-rate would be around 50/50.
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i have no clue why people think of draws in video games. Most games heavily avoid draws as it gives inconclusive result. DBD is no different in that regard.
The concept of draws comes from chess. the concept of Stalemate. In chess, its refer to as draw by insufficient material. Both players cannot progress so they agree with draw. The other stalemate is the inability to move your king or other pieces. One player not being able to progress the game therefore game is concluded as draw. draws in video games come from one player being unable to progress the game.
dbd does not have have draws really. there is no stalemate in dbd. they used to have stalemate with hatch stand-offs but this was removed for obvious reasons. one side can always make progress towards their objective. I would say 0, 1k and 2k are loss for killer, the killer failed to kill the majority of the team while 3k and 4k are wins for killer. the killer successful killed the majority members of the team. The survivors are suppose to be at odds to escape, while killer is favoured to kill but their objective is harder. the cookie cutter asymmetric win-conditions.
Closest you get to draws in dbd is if survivor are hiding when two players are left, but I am not sure how common this is. Whisper is killer perk that helps counter this situation but whisper was not one of the perks in developer statistic to be highly popular so I assume these situations are not that common. People do not care about it/put up with longer drawn out games as normal gameplay if the survivors refuses to die. I think what would be good is having killer instinct when two people are left if the killer does not find anyone within 2 minutes but this is separate issue altogether.
I am not sure if 3 generator can be consider a stalemate situation if the survivor is unable to progress them but that is another issue where generator should be so close to each other where killer can make the game go on forever. its also why I am heavily skeptical on perks like overcharge/call of brine that allow killer to compete with survivor's progression of the game in certain instances.
win-rate is way better then kill-rate for general statistic. the 1-2k for killer is for tiebreakers... which are only relevant if you are making tournament-type competitive system which dbd does not really need because its not really competitive. its more casual and the game largely centers around casual-fun.
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@Leachy_Jr said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3207373#Comment_3207373
Technically, true. By QoL I tend to classify add ons that make playing a killer much more fun. Haddies calendar for example isn't extremely significant but it's fun asf cos you wont be chewing through locks half the match.
all add-ons that buff killer make the killer more fun. DBD killers is release under-powered killers then improve them with add-on's. Its just that now a days, the killer power feels ultra-under powered and the add-on is marginal pain killers.
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@fulltonon said:
The fact is they just wanted to remove slugging and used moris as excuse.
its because mori are connected to slugging. mori skip hook-states just like slugging entire team skips hook-states.
the thing with slugging is that slugging 4 survivors is difficult because, its suppose to be difficult since the reward is unlimited. for that reason, slugging all 4 survivors is impractical. survivor's base-kit for preventing 4 man slugging is really strong. 30 seconds to recover at 95% and 4 minute timer means that you can be slugged 6-7 times before your remotely close to dying to bleed out. the 45 second changes it from 6-7 times to 4-5 times but 4-5 times among 4 survivors is still a lot of downs. The survivor has to mess up a lot for killer player to be remotely successful at slugging. Not much reason to use anti-slugging perks when the base-kit is already that good.
In order to make slugging easier as killer, you need eliminate at least 1 survivor to create a 3vs1. that's what twin's strategy is based off. its based off eliminating one survivor and then slugging the rest because its impractical for twins to: down someone 35 meter away, walk to them, hook them and do this x12 times per match. you could have 10 second chases with the killer but if it takes 40 seconds to hook a survivor, its like having 50 second chases. It would take forever for twins to acquire 4k if the twins had to hook everyone 3 times each.
for that reason, if you make a killer based off slugging, you need have some sort of gradual reward to the system or else the killer will be like 0k or 4k with nothing in between. that is also why slugging with other killers in general is not popular. Its just too high risk with improbable reward.
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@gatsby said:
With self pickup becoming base-kit and Unbreakable’s rework, I don’t see Exponential getting enough value to justify a perk slot anymore. Here’s my idea to rework exponential to make it something worth bringing into games.
Boon Exponential - Whenever a Survivor heals a full health state within the range of the totem, all injured Survivors with in range gain a health state.
This perk would follow the similar rules as Renewal. So it wouldn’t work for 99ing heal outside the totem and finishing it in the totem. It needs the full health state. It activates from self healing and teammate healing.
exponential ability to pick people up is powerful effect already if the killer slug. it does not need rework. what keeps the perk for being used is low 24 meter range. If this perk was bigger range, like 48 meters which is half the map, you would not be able to slug with the boon up. Its sort of crazy to think that they're giving global boon exponential to the survivor's base-kit. I just do not think that deleting an entire strategy at base-kit is good especially one that is not popular in every single trial.
@gatsby said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3207253#Comment_3207253
I wouldn’t mind that actually. Keeping the perk similar to how it is on Live servers but adding the wiggle speed increase. Could be really interesting and give it a niche over Unbreakable
100% wiggle increase would be more powerful than pre-nerfed boil over. you wouldn't be able to hook anyone if survivor bodyblock the hook while your carrying them off the hook even if they're like... 6 meters away from the hook.
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@dugman said:
Continuing a series of threads on the least picked perks according to aggregate site Nightlight, next up is Jonah’s perk Corrective Action (0.19% usage)
Corrective Action - You start the trial with 1/2/3 token(s) and gain a token, up to a maximum of 5, for every great Skill Check. When a Survivor fails a Normal Skill Check while cooperating with you, 1 token is consumed and their failed Skill Check becomes a good Skill Check.
There are a few things that I think make this perk not be used very often
- It only works if you’re paired with another survivor on a gen, but generally speaking survivors should want to split up on gens so ideally you don’t want to be in a position where the perk is getting value. Of course sometimes you end up wanting to pair up in some cases just to push a specific gen out more quickly so this isn’t a game stopper for the perk, but it does cut into its ability to have broader appeal.
- Survivors who have played the game somewhat regularly rarely miss Good skill checks. It does happen occasionally, mostly when a survivor leaves a gen and a skill check pops up at that exact moment, but it’s definitely not common beyond newer survivors. (Including me, I hardly ever play survivor and I sometimes miss skill checks because of it, but I’m positive if I played survivor more often it would not be much of an issue.) Unless you happen to be facing a killer with something like Unnerving Presence or Huntress Lullaby average survivors just aren’t going to fail checks that often.
Looking at the numbers, when Corrective Action triggers it saves 10 seconds on that gen. For comparison, Prove Thyself is very popular but when you actually look at the numbers it only saves 6 seconds at most per generator if two people work on it together from start to finish (without the perk two people can finish a single gen in 52 seconds, with it the time is 46 seconds.) So a single trigger of Corrective Action is worth almost two gens worth of time with Prove Thyself. Similarly Resilience speeds up solo gen repair by about 8 seconds per gen but also requires you to be repairing gens while injured which is a bit risky.
So crunching the numbers out it looks like Corrective Action could actually be a decent perk IF it triggers reliably 1-3 times per match. If it doesn’t trigger most matches though then it’s obviously not worth running.
It would be an interesting experiment to go through a bunch of recorded games and count how often people fail skill checks while paired up on generators. I’m sure it happens at low MMR, but I’m not sure if it happens often enough at average or higher MMR. Without knowing that data it’s tough to tell if this perk actually needs a buff to be used more or if it’s a perk that’s actually a bit of a sleeper that the community is maybe underusing.
I think you did not read the perk correctly. It changes failed skill-checks into good skill-checks. it does not progress generator faster. it prevents you from losing progression. Failed skill-checks regression generators by 10% and pause generator for 5 seconds. In total, for each skill-check failed, you lose 16 seconds total.
Its a joke perk made for survivors that cannot hit regular skill-checks against impossible skill-check doctor.
The perk is overly complicated for no reason. The perk should be reworked to have a more simple effect consistent effect.
Reduces default regression penalty of failing skill-check by 100% when working on generator. Reduces the pause penalty for failed skill-checks to 4/3/2.
In essence, the perk will remove progression penalties for failing a skill-check and will allow you to resume a generator in 2 seconds instead of 5 seconds. This perk would also work for your teammates as long your on the generator with them. The perk does not remove loud notification for failing a skill-check. You would need to use technician for that on generators. Nobody use this perk besides new players that are terrible at skill-checks. The only use of this perk is to turn your brain off as survivor, not that this is not already the case for survivor for gens.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3205920#Comment_3205920
I've scrimmed with him before and the big thing with M1 killers at a really high level is that you need to get downs to exert pressure. That seems obvious, but people new to comp tend to load up on slowdown on M1 killers and then they don't down anyone so the slowdown does nothing.
Even just saying high MMR as a catch-all, one or two chase perks are needed because the return on slowdowns diminishes if you aren't downing anyone. In general, the M1 killer mechanics have to be spotless on Ghostface and get 3-4 downs with his power. Usually means stalking and 99ing from very far away. Forced Penance also works wonders on him because coordinated teams tend to body block for exposed players.
I have never understood the obsession with forced penance as a perk because it does not prevent the survivors from bodyblocking. All it does is prevent same person from cycling bodyblocking but I feel that you can just cycle the broken status effect such that the status effect loses meaning. I think for the perk to punish bodyblocking, it would have to instant down the survivor if the hit was protection hit or something, so I find it a waste of perk slot.
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@[Deleted User] said:
High ground is your friend with Ghostface if the map has it. 99 people and leave them if they spot you. He doesn't exert pressure in a linear manner like other killers. His games kind of ebb and flow as you stalk people up, one shot them, and then stalk people up again.
i love his ebb and flow gameplay. I wish more killers had unique play-styles that required mastery to do well with them. its too bad that SWF destroys ghostface really badly making him not viable for top-level. I wonder what could make ghostface more viable at the higher level without changing too much about him. Its little sad that the dev couldn't improve him in any meaningful way to make him more effective vs stronger players.
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@dugman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3204717#Comment_3204717
Dead Hard is still the first or second most popular perk but its usage is half what it was, dropping from 40-50% pre-rework to 20-25% now. So yeah, you see one person or so a match using it but before it was two.
for me, it felt like 3-4 dead hard per game. now it feels like 1 or 2.
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@Gandor said:
Agreed. DS needs buff, but it shouldn't include anything that makes it active at endgame.
why not? people almost used it exclusively to have better chance at escaping the end game after conspicuous action restriction type change. that was my main reason for using DS after the restrictions. I'd equip DS if i was dying too much in the end game. Now the only way I see myself equipping DS is to stack it with off the record and dead hard to reset deep wound timers... but I feel like you need to do really poorly in the chase to need that much anti-tunnel.
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@Brimp said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3205812#Comment_3205812
Sometimes all it takes is a single person. Its not a matter of "all 4 survivors are alive = escape" literally can only happen with 2 survivors which as most killers 2 kills is still usually the most they can do unless serious mistakes were made.
i would say for most of the killers. they probably range about 1-3 hooks if its highest level but there is middle ground where it's a bit more balanced and survivor make more mistakes so the balance is closer to the ideal 5-6 hooks. more chances to 2k and sometime convert into 3k-4k. I would say dbd is closer to balanced then it has ever before base-game wise. killer power-wise? some killer could use a bit of helping hand on the micro elements on killer gameplay but its overall ok. I just kinda wish that killer's fast chases and hooks meant a little more over the whole tunneling gameplay and camping gameplay that will become even more dominate after the unlimited base-kit breakable change.
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@Brimp said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3205713#Comment_3205713
I mean when it ends up in an uncounterable scenario no matter the circumstances... You can at least body block the killer from hooking. Heal tech you can do 0 things about to prevent it.
counter is not relying on end game to get kills. if there is that many people to heal the survivor, then survivor deserves to be in the advantage. some killers do really well in end game because of their innate instant down ability allowing them to comeback but for other killers. you really need to play the early and mid game to win with them.
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@Seraphor said:
Sure it is. You just need to aim the portal directly on top of the survivor, so that when you shoot youre only standing still for a fraction of a second.
he is still slower while moving with his gateway. they took that from nurse's blink charge design but forgot that he doesn't dash to the location. the chains also have really bad durability. I wish there was an add-on that made him spawn an extra chain for 4 total chains that or fix base-kit chains to stop breaking on objects & him breaking his own chains. The chains should only break by him if he hits survivor that is chained.
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@Alcuin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3205724#Comment_3205724
Wesker shouldn't have a one-shot ability because he has built-in slowdown, built-in information (Killer Instinct), anti-loop, the ability to hinder/slow survivor movement, and map mobility. He has enough going for him, already. In DBD, one-shot ability should either require significant game sense or significant mechanical skill. He requires neither.
so you think his bound is too low skill-cap(skill-ceiling) to land? Not sure I agree with that. I think you should not miss his virulent bound if your close to the survivor, like pointblank with new hitboxs but it does take mechanical skill to land his bound. How difficult it is to use his ability varies more on how good the survivor movement is. The better survivor movement, the harder it is to land the move and the less chance you get to hit them. You do need to understand the loops to use his bound so I would say he fills game-sense category as well. Personally, I would say his hindered from infection is stronger then the instant down aspect of it, but either way, your not suppose to ignore the infection.
I do not think the difficult has any connection to whether the killer should have instant down or not. I think whether you should instant down or not should be more if the killer power feels unrewarding without instant down. Instant downs are good way to fix the killer's lethality issues from holding-W on health-states but having too many of them makes health-states feel too unrewarding for survivor so I would say that lower attack cooldown is better then most cases. that is just my opinion.
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@Alcuin said:
There's not a shooter game that this can be compared to. Either they don't allow for one-shot downs, including snipers, or they require enough skill to justify a one-shot down. With DBD, if a ranged attack requires skill, it receives complaints. Huntress can't have realistic hitboxes because too many would complain. She's gotta keep he beachballs. Same thing with Wesker. His hitbox is too difficult, it has to be fixed. Why doesn't this include a nerf to balance his now easy-to-use power, i.e. Why does he still have a one-shot ability?
"Use the spray". And get rid of his aura-reading, yes. If a killer has a one-shot ability, get rid of that killer's ability to read auras. This includes Bubba, Billy, Myers, Ghostface, etc.
he is not easy to use. what. the ability to 1 shot has no connection to how hard they are to play. I mean most of easier killers have 1 shots...ironically like myers. billy, bubba, Ghostface so on. Wesker's bounds is skill-shot and its surely much harder to use then pretty much all the 1 shot's in the game. Maybe clown's pinky finger comes out to be a harder though i'd say clown is still easier.
It had higher skill-cap before increase in hitboxes changes but the overall dash was too slow. people were having desync issues where he would teleport through the survivor instead of hitting them. as a result, they increased survivor hitbox.
@Alcuin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3205596#Comment_3205596
If you're going to give Killer information (aura-reading), you have to limit the power (one-shot abilities). There's a problem with hitboxes in this game. Huntress does not have to get a headshot, she throws a beachball. That's why Iri Head plus Infantry Belt was incredibly broken. If you want one-shot downs, it's got to be pin-point accurate aim.
pin-point aim? Like deathslinger with iri coin? I mean its still more situational than that iri head. I think those got changed because too many people kept d/c vs huntress with the add-on's. it would really help if your teammate stop d/c when killer uses strong stuff and tries to play the game even when at harsh disadvantage. You should go in my detail to explain why you think wesker's ability to pierce two health-states when you are fully infected is BS. I'd like to point that Wesker is first killer in 11 chapters that acquired a base-kit instant down. the last one was Oni and that was roughly 2 years ago.
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@Crowman said:
While Myers certainly needs adjustment, I don't see making it so his power only exposes the person he stalk a better change as then the difference between Ghostface and Myers becomes which kit is actually stronger instead of Team Expose vs Individual Expose.
Its funny that someone mention this since I had an idea at one point that makes it so that myer can only instant mori survivors that have been fully stalked on judith tombstone and tombstone piece for those survivor mains that complain about mori add-on's. For exposed? Not required. I think you had a problem with mori add-on's so if they ever adjusted them, you get that type of a change on them.
Its team game. As much as it sucks for your teammates to mess up against killer, you end up getting punished for their misplays. that is just how team games are.
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@ihateboons said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3204065#Comment_3204065
Yeah. Deliverance is a free yeet off a hook if you unhook someone. You can unhook yourself for free otherwise during the 1st phase of your hook stages. You are indeed confused on how game mechanics work and that there is a huge cheater problem. I don't think your first language is english from your post so I'll try to be nice.
Your reply makes me think you are:
- White knighting BHVR for no reason
- Never actually played the game beyond the tutorial
- Never played against cheaters
- Are in fact a hacker/VPNer(VPNs are considered cheating IMO. Blame BHVR for poor security).
I've been the victim of 4k slugging and the killer making us all 4 bleed out while going afk 100s if not 1000s of times. They aren't fun. Why should i have to run 4 second chance perks because the person playing Killer is "playing for money" and needs to take a shower? We shouldn't. But the same thing with killers. But SWF is here to stay, they will never get rid of it. so GG there.
The only 2 killers this is going to affect directly are Nurse and Twins. Nurse is a 4slug demon who the Dev have had major issues balancing perks around since they started introducing new perks. Twins needs a huge overhaul because her kit demands you slug for pressure or suffer a loss almost every time.
Yes, Sabo/Breakout teams are going to be stronger, but you have free Base perks to handle that(Iron Grasp/Agitation). "But thats a wasted perk slot!!1!" so is DS now. At least as a Killer you can save shards and buy killers/perks that are free to combat sabo/breakout. Survivors have to buy DLC to counter it, unless we run No Mither(LMFAO)
No Mither is Trash has been since David was released and has seen very very little changes since. Don't you dare ever seriously suggest this perk to anyone to counter slugging until it gets a desperately 5+ year long rework unless you're literally running in a SWF with a Sabo Squad. You are basically trolling new people when you tell them to run No Mither. That's rude dude. You'll just get tunneled out of the game faster than normal.
Soul Guard has never seen the Shrine and odds are, according to the way BHVR does things with the Shrine, it won't. Even if i have been playing this game since before its first Anniversary, i'm not buying DLC anymore until BHVR fixes the balance on a lot of things and seriously handles the cheater issues(it sucks watching a baby streamer lose 80% of his viewer count because he's being held hostage in a game)
Don't ever suggest buying DLC(since you can't buy SG with shards, just real money/auric cells) unless someone has asked which one they should get.
Considering the low survival rate of SoloQ™(which is the majority of the playerbase currently), if you can't pick up someone and hook them after 45 seconds as Killer, maybe you should play Survivor.
Also, don't complain to me about Dead Zones or even Comp Corners. You will see these players maybe 20% of the time. You need to complain to BHVR. Considering the last 6 months that's all they've listened to is Killers crying about everything despite having a higher win ratio, so what did BHVR do? They knocked Survivors down even further. HybridPanda made a rather funny statement(and was quoting ME from his in stream chat) in a recent video about Self-Care being #1. Survivors are pissed and have boycotted buying and using DLC perks. I'll co-sign that statement because its true.
Also, do me a huge favor. Name a Killer perk that has a true, honest to All downside? Hex? lol Pentimento.
I've been the victim of 4k slugging and the killer making us all 4 bleed out while going afk 100s if not 1000s of times
sounds like a skill issue. unbreakable does exist. bleeding out for 4 minutes is part of the game. it is that long because they do not want killers camping the slug the first time they down them. sounds reminiscent of.... hook camping.
Yes, Sabo/Breakout teams are going to be stronger, but you have free Base perks to handle that(Iron Grasp/Agitation). "But thats a wasted perk slot!!1!" so is DS now.
The premise of second chance perks is that they're second chance perk. not an endless chance. The way killers counter second-chance perks is by over-doing a particular strategy to win. the effectively the counter to DS is tunnelling, the more you tunnel, the more opportunity you to have waste the second chance. You get more opportunities to successful tunnel a survivor out of the game by pushing their hook counter to 3(0). Its same for unbreakable. You counter unbreakable by continuously slugging because it gives an opportunity for the survivor to waste it so now you have more of an opportunity to slug.
your job as survivor is to make your second chances count. IG and AG are not related perks to second chance perks.
The only 2 killers this is going to affect directly are Nurse and Twins
wrong. it will affect every single killer. It is just that not every single basis their gameplay win condition through slugging, for other killers, they take slugging opportunity when they see it but the survivor has to play poorly for you to gain an opportunity to slug. some killers have explosive power-ups in their ability that give them more opportunity to slug. Some player will take that as opportunity to make slugging as part of their primary win condition. It will affect Oni, Myers, Plague, Nurse and Twins. Twin's is the most prevalent slugger because she get punished for NOT slugging because survivors can often be far away from Charlotte when victor downs someone far away. Victor himself is limited time power-up. He has low cooldown but he is dependant on positioning. Slugging is way to make victor more time efficient because twins themselves are not very time efficient despite having really good 1vs1 through victor. That is why Twins can do well at high-level(good 1vs1) but do poorly at low level because low-level players have trouble making victor time efficient while a skilled player can mitigate the drawbacks of victor through slugging. Slugging is easiest highest skill-cap action for the killer so you can argue for Twins being among hardest killers to optimize in the game.
No Mither is Trash has been since David was released and has seen very very little changes since.
Apart from old Sole survivor, It is the worst perk in the game. The iron will and lucky break are pretty good effects on no mither but they're not the game-changing effects for why No mither has drawback. It is the unlimited unbreakable. Unlimited unbreakable removes the ability for the killer to slug. with such a powerful effect, it has to have drawback. Being permanent broken on the other hand is too severe of a drawback. Nobody will seriously use the perk with that kind of drawback. I think the idea behind the perk should be that you can pick yourself up more then once, but the survivor loses some bleed out timer. The ability to pick yourself up multiple times will give you multiple second chances but it will come at cost that you are more likely to die to bleed out. This makes david king perk more of risk vs reward. It would add to another dimension to the survivor gameplay to juggle between their bleed out timer and the current hook-states that they get.
This idea behind No mither could help slugging as a whole. It can fix a little bit of the problems of slugging being too super high risk to attain the high reward. Its currently too high risk to use as main stream strategy. it would be good way to have more gradual build-up rewards towards slugging like there is for hooking and this would help smooth out twin's gameplay. Other killer could also opt into the strategy more often and survivor would have another dimension to their gameplay to optimize.
this is why hooking is more popular then slugging. it is much safer option. Its so dominantly more popular to hook that survivors do not even consider bringing anti-slugging perks as part of their regular build. Killer's see it too much of risk and survivors do not face it too much unless the killer see's specific place where he see's slugging as a way to gain more reward then hooking. That's why you will never see Wraith slugging people as their dominate primary win condition.
Also, do me a huge favor. Name a Killer perk that has a true, honest to All downside? Hex? lol Pentimento.
Like all of them? They're usually explicit like "This perk has 80 second cooldown -Oppression".
I don't think your first language is english from your post so I'll try to be nice.
I would say that I have too many ideas in my head and I want to write them down, but its hard to write them down in concise manner so sometimes I end up blitzing out ideas without proof reading what I am trying to say. It ends up being confusing.
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@GrimoireWeiss said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3204177#Comment_3204177
It's not.
Huntress slows down to a snail pace to prepare a hatchet, takes 1,25 seconds to release one at minimum speed and also has a harsh speed punishment if you decide to raise a hatchet and not throw it.
Compare that to Nemesis for example. If a survivor goes through a pallet you raise the tentacle and if the survivor decides to drop the pallet he takes a M2, and if he decides to continue the loop he takes a M1 because Nemesis has a very short wind up and cooldown for his power. A Huntress in this situation can't get a M1 because she actually has good designed cooldowns.
The same applies for Artist, Trickster, Dredge, Slinger... basically killers whose counterplay boils down to WWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
I'd probably agree with Danielmaster87. Huntress is very much about holding-w and line of sight. It is difficult to dodge her projectile when the player using her is good at <12 meters. the m/s slowdown is somewhat exaggerated as drawback for her. Nemesis's range is a lot more limited and his gameplay boils down to you disrespecting his tentacle which allows you to extra loops in a lot of cases or him disrespecting pallets and you gaining a small opportunity to pallet stun him. All those other killer are way easier to loop.
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@GrimoireWeiss said:
I wish more killers were like Huntress. Strong but fair to face. Since 2020 it feels most killers boil down to "press M2 to instantly zone survivor".
sounds like a perfect description for huntress. press m2 to zone survivors.
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@drsoontm said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3203023#Comment_3203023
It's not the same. As an example, SWF cannot accurately give the exact location of the killer and it's movements. The information in that case is usually something like "killer camps", "killer goes to someone alone", ...
I expect highly trained, SWAT-level, groups will be more accurate, but nothing like wall-hacks.
Accuracy is key.
yeah wall-hack on killer is too accurate. there is no such thing as survivor instinct but swf is closer to survivor instinct on killer, not pure wall-hacks. in some sense, they know where you are in general but not as precise wall-hacks.
kindred base-kit survivor aura reading is fine, but why does it have to be limited to only occuring on a hook? it should be all the time, like empathy. it seems like they're giving a giant buff to swf with this base-kit unlimited unbreakable.
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@ihateboons said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3203536#Comment_3203536
Mmm Yes. Pondering to survivors. Myes.
You could post a suggestion instead of whining. Especially about "pandering" to Survivors, who have had the lowest Win Rate for how long now? I'll let you look up those stats. Take some Mayo, them thangs is DRY.
"OH NO BHVR YOU SUCK" Yeah, you folks act like this is their first rodeo. But forreal. Don't you dare sit there and say they are pandering to anyone. Cheaters aside, this game is still wildly unfair for both sides.
BHVR's at least attempting to balance stuff. As mad as I am at them for fumbling a dozen times a minute, they haven't abandoned their game like a LOT of devs do when things get a little prickly. What I believe you are having a problem with is being self centered with a huge self bias. You are blind to anything except what affects you.
Also, we will be losing another Achievement: You will no longer be able to crawl out of the game via hatch.
???? I am very confused? I am not sure why you think you should be getting up automatically with no perk without any downside when the killer down you. that is like jumping off a hook for free, base-kit. Perks that allow you to get up with no downside should have limit use like unbreakable and the unlimited sources of pick which are no mither, your teammates, soulguard and the boon should take away a portion of bleed out meter so that slugging is closer to hook-states. you can get up but it is limited to around 3 times similar to 3 hook-states. It will help killers like twin's function a bit better and other killers can opt into slugging strategy if they wish. this patch is like completely killing twins and is subjected to have huge abuse with sabotage, bodyblocking and deadzones with no hooks.
that is why hope the patch gets large revisions/changes or does not pass through.
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@SuzuKR said:
- Kills slugging as a strategy because 45s is an incredibly small window especially when chain-slugging because multiple survivors in the vicinity. The first will be back up before or around the time the second goes down if the survivors are decent.
- Kills incentive for interactivity from survivors. Why the hell would I get off a gen to go help them if they get back by themselves in 45s anyways?
- Exacerbates major issues with unhookable zones that can be intentionally created.
- Kills incentive for interactivity from killer. Why would they risk a slug and losing health state when there’s an insanely overpowered base recovery mechanic? It would be better to just immediately tunnel off hook/camp, instead of slugging and going for more chases.
- Punishes the killer for playing smart by slugging in situations it makes sense (multiple around for instance) when the result is from survivors misplaying (by grouping up close by).
- As if the above points weren’t already bad enough, Unbreakable will now make it take a mere 22.5s to pick oneself up. Infinitely.
its just pondering toward survivor mains as usual. killer deserves to get rewarded for downing survivors, not punished. its already pretty silly that you can pick other people up infinitive and now they're adding the ability to self-pick infinitely? talk about punishing the killer for downing the survivor.
The chapter could largely simplified to following: When end game collapse begins and final survivor remains, You will automatically mori the last survivor if you down them. None of this infinity unbreakable pick up stuff. if anything unbreakable is not a very popular perk and slugging is not that popular so it should improved instead removed from the game. I hope changes do not pass through but they likely will so it is what it is.
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@Laluzi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3202653#Comment_3202653
You just told me to play survivor instead if I didn't like that BHVR's slated changes are going to wreck things for killers.
Last update primarily consisted of things I liked or was neutral about, with a few issues of varying importance that are still unresolved (and I have been talking about ever since they dropped.) This update is the first time I hate every single thing they've announced.
Mostly I think you are very wrong about the idea that we have to wait for PTB before we're allowed to say that water is wet.
20k bp for an offering is going to be very rare. If there any slugging challenges in those rifts, those challenges will be near impossible. Its hard enough to slug 4 survivors with 0 unbreakables, let alone 4 base-kit unbreakable every match. your going to be heavily punished for trying to slug. those offerings are at best 8k bp and at worst, 0 bp.
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yes turbo buff tunneling so nurse has pyramid head's power. sounds like a good plan to merge killer powers.
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@Brokenbones said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3202577#Comment_3202577
Not really
Pinhead can get a good start but then he still has to win his chases. Chain hunt isn't an automatic 'win chase' button. It's good slowdown, nobody will deny that but it can be dealt with. Chain Hunt gets really oppressive when it's reset over and over again which doesn't happen very often from my experience.
After the Lethal Pursuer find, from that point onward, the Pinhead player has to then figure out where the box could be based either on survivor telegraphing, available information or the killer instinct reveal. Not to mention if survivors are playing well, they'll know to take the box somewhere really annoying for Pinhead to contest.
I still think my point still holds true, box logic is something both sides can use it's just survivors don't really need to use it because the game tells them where the box is anyway. Pinhead is far from a problematic killer, in my opinion. He's easily one of the most balanced we have.
I'm not trying to say your opinions are invalid, I just really don't think it's that big of an issue.
resetting chain hunt over and over is part of pinhead's entire skill. He is one of the killers that I try to not tunnel/camp/slug and try to go for loads of chases because the chain hunt rewards me for downing survivors with the box. Him picking up box early on is not a problem because when you pick the box in isolation as pinhead, the box respawn in 10 seconds so cancelling chain hunt is pretty easy. You only get rewarded if you down a survivor with the box which activates chain hunt and the respawn time is 30 seconds which rewards pinhead player for successfully downing the survivor. He is alright but his chains break too easily making his chase a little annoying for playing him.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3201645#Comment_3201645
You're welcome to hold on to your optimism, while some remember a time where CoH could have been reworked to be in line with the other boons instead of ruining the concept of boons by existing, even after it was laughably apparent before the PTB proved it, and their adjustments were all put in the wrong places instead of how its inclusion changed core gameplay mechanics entirely. They prove time and time again that they don't learn from their mistakes, so people try to caution them by reminding them before its too late. Once a change like this is rolled out, it becomes considerably harder to change or revert without undoing its impact on the rest of the game. I'd rather see them skip content updates and fix game health than make changes that shift the problems of game health around, but if nothing else it always makes for good lessons in the game devlopment process.
Also with the No mither comparison, its because the basekit effect is more in line with that than UB: UB you can only use once per trial, while no mither you can pick yourself up constantly. Its literally why people use it in troll and bully builds, as it usually has to do with forcing lose/lose situations to punish the killer for interacting with them in any way (including slugging and not bothering.) People paired it with their Boil Over meme builds for a reason.
i think survivor are over-playing their hand when complaining about slugging. slugging encourages the killer for the most part to pressure the entire team and asking the dev to fix slugging is asking for dev to continuously give you second chances at going down. survivors can infinitive nearly infinitive pick each other up in a 4 minute time window without the killer getting any reward for downing the survivor. for that reason, slugging is not that popular of strategy because it is least effective out of the 3 but completely deleting it feels like an extreme decision.
While its not impossible for the killer to win without slugging, the gameplay for killer is a lot more one dimensional now. I think that just something that killers are going to have to live with assuming the changes pass through. no more wild-comes back's. Personally I like the wild-come backs and explosive nature of the game with many gameplay among all the different killers but I guess it is alright if its more monotone.
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@Brokenbones said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3201845#Comment_3201845
It's not free though. If someone unhooks close by - you can basically always hit one of them. By definition that's not free, you gain something from it.
In the endgame though yeah it's a problem, I 100% agree but having a perk essentially make camping extremely easy isn't the solution. All you get is killers who can ignore the perks downside camping in the early/mid game. I have no issues with the perk being used to make chases quicker, I just hate how it doubles as idiotproofing for camping killers.
Health-states vs losing the status of 1 person on a hook dying is not an equal trade for the killer. equal trade for killer would be an unhook for 1 person slugged. One of the impressive aspects for survivor for high MMR is that sometimes, if a teammate goes to unhook with you because teammate knows the killer is camping, I will often circle around the killer, get close enough to the killer while looking at my teammate's position and take a hit on purpose and somehow, my teammate knows to utilizes killer cooldown to get the unhook. Its impressive that you can do this reliably in soloq with no communication, some killer will accuse you of swf but it seems like its understood strategy for survivor at higher-level.
Its not just end-game thing. its all-game and its effective strategy to counter facecamping killers at hooks. The camping wraith cannot secure kills if you use this strategy. Its obviously most potent in end game because you can change say a 2 or 3 man escape into 4 man escape but the killer has to not be good at camping hooks. I.e no instant down, no faster recovery etc.
At one point(1.5 years ago), I thought it was unfair strategy for killer to be able to do this with the perk, so I suggested a rework to the perk on forums that was something along lines that instead of reducing killer's cooldown time by 40%, It reduces survivor's sprint burst by 0.25/0.50/0.75/1.0 seconds so it is more chase perk but I suppose dev consider face-camp as fair strategy to gain kills given that they buffed the killer's cooldown time from 3 second->2.7 seconds.
It seems that camping and tunnelling are good strategies while slugging should be punished. As a result, I do not see them changing the perk.
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@Brokenbones said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3201784#Comment_3201784
I can give you a good reason
It turns camping from a risk vs reward scenario into a turn your brain off scenario
Its not killer fault that there is no counter-play to survivors properly bodyblocking and abusing the killer's long cooldown timer to get free unhooks at base-kit without having instant down.
Do you want just free unhooks without the killer being able to hook-trade at all? in end game, it can lead to free escapes with survivor kongo lines.
I am just playing devil advocate on your complaint on the perk.
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@Brokenbones said:
Hooks should respawn eventually
It's a very archaic mechanic that serves no purpose in modern DBD, I'm not even sure what purpose it served in old DBD
i think it comes from survivor objective. when survivor complete their objective, the generator can no longer be interacted with. They just applied that same logic that when killer finishes their objective, the hook is disappears which is fine because slugging was fair counter-play but with base-kit unbreakable. DBD is certainly going in an interesting direction.
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3201703#Comment_3201703
45s is not a long amount of time at all. Why are survivors being rewarded for ignoring their downed teammates?
end-game, 2 exit gates are far apart, your waiting for your teammate to die, so that you can get the free escape. Your also acting like survivors constantly get to use unbreakable 3-4 times a match. Its hard to use unbreakable once per match consistent especially in soloq.
This is big buff to swf though. bodyblocking swf with unbreakable. Not sure why swf needs buff consider 15% higher escape rate at higher level... but ok.
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@MobTalon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3198682#Comment_3198682
I absolutely disagree with the "make Lepron Lichen" basekit, never once have I heard such a broken suggestion. Literally not a single killer has basekit aura reading on their kit.
At most if we're to add basekit information to The Demogorgon, make Eleven's Soda basekit, as it's more thematic and would give a good amount of info that wouldn't be too broken.
fair point. What about killer instinct? Like legion. How about getting killer instinct for 3 seconds upon emerging from a portal? I would say his portals are under-utilized compared to his shred. His shred is usable at base-kit but its not amazing from slow pallet breaks. I think killer instinct serves similar purpose to aura-reading in this case, but I guess that is down to preference.
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@WorthlessBeing said:
All that's left is to give survivor baseline Self-Care really.
I mean why even bother to play killer. Well, I still will, but I can smell the trash games from a mile away.
Honestly? I don't like that "Last Stand" thing at all. It would've been simpler to make the Cypress mori baseline, boom. And leave the other two moris as they are.
You've just given survivors even MORE weapon and their hands were already full of them.
well forum have been saying that soloq is unplayable because of tunneling and camping. So with base-kit unbreakable, Survivor can now bodyblock other survivors that are on death hook when they are not hooked.
Base-kit unbreakable is more anti-tunnel put into the base-kit for the survivor. that is my guess for why they did this.
The other reason they did this is because 2 player gameplay scenerio's. Survivors find it unfun to be slugged for 4 minutes when killers are going for 4k due to hatch & exit gate mechanic, so this last man standing highly discourages slugging to get 4k.
In general it also kills 3 man slugging strategies as well.
TL:DR This update is more anti-tunnel put into the survivor base-kit through teamwork.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3201302#Comment_3201302
Yeah, adding basekit self pickups just deletes any pressure you can get from slugging, since there's really no incentive for a teammate to come pick them up.
the way dev are seeing is that base-kit finisher mori's can raise kill-rates if both survivors are spotted at the end of the game since downing both survivors consecutively means that both survivor will die instantly.
what they are not seeing is that the killer is often going get 3 kills in 2 vs1 scenario's irregardless of mori.
The main problem with base-kit unbreakable is 3 man slugging becoming almost unviable. In many cases, a killer can lose all 5 generators very quickly, but is often able to squeeze a kill through tunneling and camping such that he creates 3vs1 just as end game as begun.
If the killer has like 6-8 collective hooks remaining, it is impossible for him to get 6-8 hooks if the survivor made it to end game, so the killer only option is to slug, 3 man slug. Its not exactly easy to 3 man slug because one person can always pick up the other person but if you are lucky enough to down both players consecutively, you can leave both survivors on the floor and attempt to scout the final survivor to down them. that is where unbreakable as perk really shines, it shines when you are at mist of defeat as survivor but the exit gates are opened which can change 4 kill to into 2 man escape at min, sometimes 3 man if slugging backfires though more likely 2k.
the other place that unbreakable shines is bodyblocking. Suppose that survivor A is on death hook, and Survivor B on 1 hook state and survivor C and D have not been hooked. The killer is on 1 gen. If the killer find survivor A, he will be desperate to try to tunnel survivor A out of the game because if he is successful, he can turn the game from 4vs1 to 3vs1 which opens possibility to 3m an slug where as 4m slugging is not that easy. You can throw yourself at the killer as survivor C and D when survivor A is being chased(tunneled out of the game) and there is large likelihood that the killer will slug you and will continue to chase survivor A until he eliminates survivor A out of the game. Unbreakable is good in this situation because you can throw yourself at the killer, but your teammates do not need to come and pick you up, they can stay on generator while unbreakable picks you up.
according to BVHR stats in first update, Unbreakable is not that popular of a perk because most killer do not slug every single game. there's risk vs reward to the perk making it situational. Of course if you get into these two situations of end-game 3 man slugging and bodyblocking when a survivor is on death hook and your on 0 hook, then unbreakable is really good.
The result post-update is that 3 man slugging will be non-existed, as in completely dead and body blocking survivors that are on death hook will become more common due to base-kit unbreakable. Before killer would take gamble that you do not have unbreakable because its not common perk. Post-update, every killer will pick you up if you bodyblock for death hook person, so you can now trade your hook-state for one of your team hook-states, like that survivor A who is on death hook. So more anti-tunnel mechanics put into the base game.
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there's a slight problem. DS is 60 seconds, but being pick-up is 45 seconds. With DS+Soulguard, you created lose/lose situation for the killer where the killer cannot slug to avoid decisive strike and the killer cannot camp bodies because soul guard grants endurance when being picked up on the ground. Cases where a sabotage on hooks force the killer to slug but the unbreakable punishes the killer for the only play available to them.
Removing slugging entirely from the game heavily simplifies the game and removes variance from the trial. I like how every killer is unique and has different strength's. Killers like Twins have long walking time between downing a survivor and hooking them so their play-style of slugging is punished. Oni is kicked out of his ability when picking up a survivor and his power has some incentives to slug. Sadako has niche play-style in slugging. Slugging for map pressure is entirely gone and the decision to hook becomes binary decision.
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@Raccoon said:
Dream World just needs some sort of lethality/boost if survivors stay in it for too long.
A hard reason/necessity to stay awake is all he needs, imo, as clocks would then function as slowdown, too.
He had that. Forever freddy was lethality boost because you could stack sloppy butcher+ old thanotophobia for massive anti-healing with dream world. Swinging chains and Jump rope were punishments for staying in his dream world on both gens and healing. He just got nerfed. nothing else.
I think he's fine as horror icon in the game. Not every killer has to be strong I guess. some are destined to be F-tier.
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@randonly said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3199414#Comment_3199414
Pig RBT's have been completely ruined to the point that by themselves they don't kill and it's not even worth using addon for that anymore, ruining the live or die lore. And look, the nerf in her entire base kit was because of a broken addon that allowed her to simply camp in a box and stay afk in front of a box in the game.
As for myers, I hope they (devs) rework Judith's tomstone, but not to the point of ruining the character's lore and base kit.
its because pig RBT are not meant to be reliable mori's. They're first about slowdown, then about mori's. the mori is highly map dependent and somewhat rng-based. I think pre-work RPD was her most consistent map to mori someone because most players got lost in the map pathing for old RPD to get to jigsaw boxes and then there is just big maps that increase walking distance between each box so your more likely to get mori'd. I am not sure what odds are to get a mori, but I think you can get a mori every 1/4 or 1/5 games. something like that.
As i said, I think the dev consider mori mechanics as fair way to gain kills and they balance around them(by making the killer terrible at every other category besides mori).
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@ThiccClaud said:
You start at half infection when you get unhooked, how the ######### are you guys not getting infected during chase? It's not like you can spray mid chase. And it just feels like this is a free tunnel mechanic for garbage killers. Also if he hits you once he is "succeeding"????? Imagine huntress huntress hitting you with a hatchet and then a timer runs for 50 second which makes you 10% slower after the timer is done. Is that fair?
huntress used to have an add-on that hindered you for 30 seconds for 5%. It got removed in her add-on rework along with her action-speed decrease add-on. so it is funny that you mention it.
it takes 100 seconds to get fully infected. The only way to speed up the infection in chase is a purple add-on that increases infection rate when he throws you, but if he hits you, most of the time, he is suppose get health-state so the infection mechanic only rewards wesker for failing to hit with his ability. The other is his green video add-on.
The infection is like old legion's deep wound mechanic for moon-walking but unlike legion that gets uncounterable deep wound hits, Wesker's bound have fair counter-play so in the end, its your fault for getting hit by his ability. He is just cashing in on a delayed reward.
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@Crowman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3199351#Comment_3199351
The tombstone addons are holding myers back from being a better killer. At no point am I saying the devs have to remove Myers having the ability to instant kill survivors. But the fact he can do it against healthy survivors who haven't been hooked is no longer fine with the direction the devs have been taking the game.
We've seen Moris get nerfed for giving killers the power to quickly tip the scales of the game in their favor. Hatch/keys got changed to not allow multiple survivors the ability to escape without finishing the objective. There's no way the tombstone addons will stay the way they are.
I think they'll stay how they are because they want myers to stay to his lore on being able to instant kill survivors. that is running theme behind mori-based killers is that their fantasy in dbd gameplay is compromised for the sake of being more lore accurate.
my main dislike behind mori's for myers and pig specifically is how -unpreventable- they are. I just feel like these killers do not feel like they have build-up to earning a mori. The premise that you have to line of sight myers for the entire game feels unrealistic to dbd gameplay for survivor. Its same for pig. you just follow the normal gameplay loop of a killer and mori naturally occurs automatically from rng jigsaw boxes. I feel like these two mori's take away from survivor gameplay instead of add to the gameplay because the expected way to counter these killers is to flawless the game by not going down. that's why these killers have weak chases because they devalue the hook-state system so your expected to flawless the game against them.
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@Crowman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3199226#Comment_3199226
It is a bad argument. We shouldn't ignore unhealthy stuff in the game just because it's attached to a weaker killer. Myers needs basekit adjustments and an addon overhaul. He should get those things regardless if Blight's addons have been touched. DBD is constantly being updated so it doesn't really matter if 1 thing gets adjusted before the other.
Moris got changed before keys did. Both were unhealthy and they both got changed
myer's lore is to instant kill. so its faithful to lore of his character. weakened these add-on would really hurt myer's as whole.
I just think that the shape and his whole tier 1/tier/tier 3 feels like he is suppose to be ever-changing but he doesn't feel like the shape in the sense that tier 1 is detriment, tier 2 is barely better then normal killers and tier 3 is downside where other killers like billy have base-kit instant down without needing to waste time to acquire it. He does not feel dynamic as killer in the sense of being transforming killer.
Myer's feels like he is suppose to be like Iron man where he is suppose to just go through everything and be like super-killer m1 that does everything quickly. Its just that he does not feel oppressive in tier 3 because he has no anti-loop towards pallets in the game. He get stunned like every normal killer and pallets impede his ability to down in tier 3. I think they envisioned him to be more of a build-up killer that progressively gets stronger the longer the game goes on by making him have faster action speed on everything similar to freddy's fire-up perk. Its just that positive additive bonus have diminishing returns in DBD and fire-up just is has little impact so stacking action speed bonus do not make much of a difference for his tier 3 to be threatening.
I do not think they're going change him or any add-on's because he is gimmick killer. you make his tier 3 relevant by optimizing his niche mori play-style that has synergy with his pwyf perk. there is nothing more to him. Keys & mori offering were global to the game. Nurse could use mori's and survivor could use keys that could impact the match result heavily which is why they got changed. Mori's for Myers are his unique gimmick and I do not see them changing his gimmick unless they change Myer's design but people like his add-on design so it is unlikely to change.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
I am not talking about base-kit BT, it is good enough. It was very good buff for survivors.
But problem is coming with OTR. It is not stackable with BT, which is fair. But this means killers can abuse that.
If killer wants to tunnel you, they are hitting you after you unhooked. This means you can not use OTR or DH anymore. Smart killers are taking these perks from you. You have no protection after that.
So these perks are not very effective sadly. They are not helping you like old DS. Old DS really punished tunnelling, OTR can be counterable very easily with early hit or STBFL.
I am really hoping we can get old DS back. It still can stay deactivated for end game but stun time (3 seconds) is doing nothing. DS was the best anti-tunnel and now sadly tunnelling is so strong. We need 5 seconds DS again.
they're not bad. It got nerfed in the PTB to prevent survivors from being able to stack second chance perks such as Base-kit BT, Off the record and Dead hard. these perks now have anti-synergy but taking an extra hit is really good.
DS is only perk you can stack with second chance perks. It was just reduced in power-level.
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@dugman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3198847#Comment_3198847
I see what you’re saying now, you’re assuming every survivor is running Up the Ante.
I don't think anyone ever made video regarding luck in the game but I searched google and got this video from 2020 dbd titled "Up the ante is actually op".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qtnfRsstrsthis video is like... the personification of what was powerful in old dbd. DS+Unbreakable, SWF, powerful maps like old Ormond, Instant escape keys. the game really has changed for how it looks. So if your curious to how good up the ante is. you can watch this video to gauge the performance of the perk. it does work. Just only for SWF.