DeadArsenal
DeadArsenal
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- DeadArsenal
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There will be no enjoyment now, only ruthless meta.
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@SleepyWillo said:
All these people saying "I need ruin to have a chance against good survivors at red ranks" - what good survivors care about ruin at red ranks? Almost all good survivors can just work through it. It's literally a waste of a perk slot against good players. The only issue I've seen with it is when experienced players bring new friends into games and the newbs haven't seen a skill check before
You don't seem to understand how Ruin worked. When Ruin was up Great skill checks gave no bonus progression. That means even if they complete great skill checks they're only repairing it as quickly as they would repair a generator normally with good skill checks. Killers didn't rely on Ruin to freeze gen progression. They used it to reduce gen progression to a more manageable pace.
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@Todgeweiht said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/978729#Comment_978729
So you are basically proposing to make the game completely unfun for the survivors so they agree with you?
No he's stating a fact that Killers will resort to other means to win. Those means are things survivors don't like. Buckle up, because they'll keep doing it long after BHVR realizes how and why this was a mistake. Killer players would have gladly parted with Old Ruin if it meant adjusting gen repair speeds to take the edge off of gen rushing's effectiveness.
If Hex:Ruin doesn't buy them the time they need to win by playing "fair" then they won't play fair.
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The entire idea of certain methods of play being "toxic" is hilariously biased by itself. It's not a protest, it's not revenge, it's playstyles adjusting to a new meta in the absence of the old. If you have to game the system from the start to win then that's what you'll do. That's what meta is: The viable way to play. If toxicity is viable then toxicity is what everyone will get.
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@BRICKSandSTRINGS said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/978143#Comment_978143
Sis, I just don’t care. Really.
If you love the game I can't really understand why you don't care. If I didn't love the game I wouldn't be here trying to express why this is decision is bad for everyone. That's why I care enough to try and explain how this change, if not compensated for by extension of the early game or some other preventative measure against gen rush, will make the game less enjoyable for everyone across the board.
If being a sweaty tryhard that uses the most meta perks and unfair items possible were the fun way to play people would have just done that instead of using Ruin. Killers already have the tools to compensate for these changes, but everyone including you hates those tools. The gap between Survivor players and Killer players widens a little bit more and the tension between the two continues to rise. Anybody that plays both gets accused of just being one or the other and nobody trusts anyone else's input anymore. That is a potential future for this game's community and I'm not too fond of the concept.
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@BRICKSandSTRINGS said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/978131#Comment_978131
It doesn’t matter what they do to this game, I’ll still play it irregardless because I love it. Some people just take this ######### way too seriously ISTG.
You'll love it less and less as the meta shifts toward what has been considered "toxic" behavior up until this point. Shameless use of NOED and Moris alone will be annoying. But those are just the most obvious mechanical ways this will manifest. Forget all the threats people are making too, there's nothing to threaten: This is natural response to a popular and useful perk being changed. The meta shifts to the next most viable method and if that next most viable method is scummy what's left of the Killer playerbase won't care.
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@BRICKSandSTRINGS said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/972691#Comment_972691
omg sis. Resort to?! You guys already f’in do this over and over anyway so it’s no change for us.
You say that now, but I don't think you realize how many killers adhere to the socially acceptable Killer Rules that Survivors have complained into existence over the lifespan of this game. You may not notice it but Killers can often intentionally switch targets to avert accusations of tunneling or just hooking someone instead of leaving them Knock Out slugged in a corner. That's just a couple of examples. You run into a couple of jackasses every now and then. Now there will be nothing but jackasses.
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There are plenty of people offering input that understand both sides quite well. By the sound of things you're ignoring them in favor of a strawman you constructed. The new meta will be merciless and the only possible good this change could do is show BHVR exactly how busted the early game is.
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So what you're saying is that killers are better at playing survivor than you are? 🤣
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@Kycer said:
I used to be one of these nice killers who always thought that you can have fun as the killer without the need to ruin the survivors’ game with BS (OP) stuff.
Now that Ruin is gone, and the devs and survivors mains clearly don’t give a damn about the killer’s fun (as you can see in the forum), so why should we care about their fun? I will replace Ruin with Noed and bring Moris whenever I feel like it from now on.
I literally can’t afford to be nice to survivors after this ruin nerf.
The time of the nice killer is dead. Survivors killed it. Embrace this brave new meta. Survivors will enjoy it even less than Killers do.
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@Huff said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/977744#Comment_977744
"educated guesses"
Nuff said. I never said you were stupid, only that it's the only alternative to you just being malicious and trying to put words into other peoples' mouths. There's no "retreat" here. Just gonna let you have fun being angry over made up things, buddy. :)
Oh aren't you a craft sophist? Your insults are conditional so they were never really insults huh? Laughable When the dust settles we'll see how this turns out for Survivors that are riding high now. The new meta will not be any more fun, I assure you. Both sides of the playerbase will suffer for this. Mark my words. By the way, you're the one threatening to retreat in case you forgot your last two posts. "I'm done with this interaction" he says, right before claiming someone else is in "retreat." You have very little if any self awareness.
P.S. I added the word "to" in an edit to my original post and the auto-moderation system ate it. So if you see a double post that's why.
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@Huff said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/977744#Comment_977744
"educated guesses"
Nuff said. I never said you were stupid, only that it's the only alternative to you just being malicious and trying to put words into other peoples' mouths. There's no "retreat" here. Just gonna let you have fun being angry over made up things, buddy. :)
Oh aren't you a crafty sophist? Your insults are conditional so to you they were never really insults huh? Laughable. We'll see how this turns out for Survivors once the dust settles. What hurts one side of the playerbase hurts both sides of the playerbase. Mark my words.
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@Huff said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/977685#Comment_977685
Not everybody plays the PTB. I even admittedly don't because I just am too lazy to sign up for it. That's the thing. Even if people do play it, there was literally people complaining about it before the PTB was even released. You're just reading too far into it. The point of that question is that there's plenty of people that are forming opinions without actually being privy to all the information. It's childish to do something like that. It's childish to put words into somebody's mouth, like saying they're implying somebody doesn't know how to play killer. Perhaps you're not trying to start something, but the only other option is that you're too stupid to realize that what you're accusing him of saying isn't what he actually said. That's why he calls out this group of individuals children. Because they act like it. And what extra conclusion could they make? People find new things out all the time, even on live servers. People just need to get their hands on the material to figure things out more completely.
You're just trying to inject your own thoughts and ideas into his original post. Sorry I don't live in your reality where everybody has to mean what you say they do. I'm done with this interaction, because I don't want to turn this into even more spam unrelated to the OP's question.
Of course they're complaining about it before PTB was even released, because they play the actual game enough to make educated guesses as to how something will change the game and why. The whys and hows have been expressed many times which is why it's not at all fair to start broadly generalizing anyone that's complaining as an angry 12 year old. In fact, you calling me stupid in your post while trying to claim I'm trying to "start something" just tells me you're projecting so hard it's disgusting.
I gave you two the benefit of the doubt and you threw a tantrum because I called you out on your insulting, degrading, and hyperbolic assertions. Of course you would posture and disengage after throwing further insults and claiming my posts are "spam." Why wouldn't you? You actually legitimately believe taking away the one method of averting gen rush without adjusting anything else is a good idea.
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Because like it or not playing Killer requires a degree of critical thinking and gamesense that a bot can not achieve without telling it where the Survivors are on a constant basis. You might as well be asking why they don't just make Survivor bots: They'd be too stupid to even bother playing against.
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@Huff said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/977665#Comment_977665
And where in there does it say that they can't play killer? Give me the reality check, please.
They very basic question of asking them if they played the PTB in the first place is an implicit accusation. You might as well be asking "lol have you even played the game?" News flash: Even without playing the PTB it's easy to see how this affects gameplay. What extra conclusion are you expecting after they've played it? Do you think they're going to radically change their minds when they find out they were right before they even played it? No, it was a loaded question from the start.
Furthermore, your reality check needs to come from realizing you just accused someone of trying to "start silly things" when the person who started the thread opened their first paragraph by painting anyone that disagrees with them as a child. Get a clue.
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@Huff said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/977357#Comment_977357
You came in here accusing somebody of telling people they don't know how to play killer, and that people would be offended, when nobody here has said anything of the sort. Then you continue on and accuse somebody else of not being willing to listen to criticism, when they made a post asking about PTB testing.
You really haven't contributed anything to the thread, dude. Don't waste your time trying to start silly things.
The OP calls everyone complaining "pathetic" and "12 year olds." I think you need a reality check.
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I presume that both Killers and Survivors must, else they wouldn't have any hope of escape. If the Fog was all they've ever known they have no reference point as a safer and better place to go back to. It feeds on them until they've lost all hope and then discards them into a void of nothing. The Killers, on the other hand, have to be kept in a perpetual state that makes them dangerous. They also cling to environments like the ones they were around in life. None of these would have meaning if they forgot who they were before.
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@ppo8820 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/977478#Comment_977478
I honestly don’t care that much. It’s a video game at the end of day. There’s a whole real world out there my friend.
I say play how you want. It won’t matter in the long run. I’m sure killers will up the toxicity but if that’s what you need to do, by all means go ahead.
But it does matter in the long run. Dead By Daylight has an interesting dynamic where players have very different perspectives. Some people play both, some people play only one, but any changes that are a detriment to one eventually ends up a detriment to both. Hex:Ruin was a fulcrum that the socially acceptable metagame was balanced on. Now that it no longer functions in that capacity there are consequences for both Killers and Survivors.
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@ppo8820 said:
As you can see in this forum. Some Killer players don’t actually want to get good or use skill. They’re used to easy games and will defend it with vigor. No one wants to adapt or grow, just want 4ks. I was getting 4ks by rank 15 killer. As survivor it took until rank 8 where I could outlast a good chase.
Your perspective if flawed. The more Killers feel persecuted the more ruthlessly they'll exploit every advantage they can get. Once the dust settles I think you'll be enjoying a lot more behavior that Killers refrained from out of courtesy. Tunneling, Slugging, and Ebony Mori on second down will become the new standard. None of that requires more skill. Quite the contrary: It can often be easier.
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@kate_best_girl said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/977349#Comment_977349
Honestly let’s all just start being super toxic toxic and ruin the fun of everyone to protest because they’ve gone way too far this time
I don't think it's about ruining peoples fun or protesting. It's just moving to the next most viable playstyle. People used Hex:Ruin because it was the most acceptable meta, like a compromise. Now the compromise is gone, like a peace treaty expiring without being renewed. Violent adjustment to the new status quo is natural.
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@ppo8820 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/977311#Comment_977311
I can’t dislike a streamer? He’s full of #########. Dude says every game he even remotely has to try in are “ 0.5 optimal survive with friends”. He’s a whiner and a complete boob. I can’t stand it so no, I won’t be tuning in.
sidenote. You’ve contributed nothing to my post except show how pressed and angry you are. I’m guessing you’re just not great at game. Feels bad man.
You don't have to like him to listen to him or consider his thoughts. But since you've immediately jumped to telling my how angry I apparently am I get the impression you won't listen to anything anyone says at all. I guess I'm wasting my time trying to reason with you.
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Ruin needed to get the rework hammer but without adjusting gen repair times they crippled a lot of killers. High tier killers will still find a way but the others will fall into disuse and the meta will get even more boring than it was before. It's also going to encourage a lot of people to use all the Ebony Moris they've had locked away because they considered it unfair to use. NOED use will increase as well. Killer players have the tools to deal with this already. The anger mostly comes from the fact we were expected not to use those tools so many forgot they existed.
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@ppo8820 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/977300#Comment_977300
You mean tru3? No thanks I’ll pass. Lol
So you already know of someone who meets your criteria...but you ignore them? 👌
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@ppo8820 said:
Yes notice no one commented. Proves none of them have even played in the ptb. Lol
Or maybe they're insulted by the question and won't spare the effort to respond to someone that implies they don't know how to play Killer. You wouldn't listen to anyone here anyway. Go listen to any streamer that plays in red ranks. They play both Killer and Survivor and their thoughts are already out there. Even the ones that wanted a Ruin rework are wondering what the hell BHVR are thinking.
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No they have to rely even more on random chance to get a reasonable amount of time to down all survivors 3 times assuming Survivors aren't packing multiple perks that allow them to gain a health state, recover from slugging, take an extra hit, and/or get out of a grab in some circumstances. Taking Ruin had nothing to do with a Killer's "skill" and everything to do with how the structure of the game is gamed very easily. Gen rushing remains king and the new Ruin does nothing to stop this.
At its root Hex:Ruin was nothing more than a way to spend a perk slot to gamble for an extra 35 seconds to 4 minutes of time. At red ranks it was all but necessary for many killers to remain viable. You say "apply map pressure" but you're under the mistaken impression that killers weren't doing this before. Applying pressure is something you learn in brown ranks and apply forever. You don't even make it into green unless you're capable of applying pressure so don't give me any BS about Killers not knowing how to use a basic part of the game.
You can't put pressure on an SWF gen rush unless you are very lucky. It is not a consistently applicable skill. It's guesswork. You can not comb the map for survivors while keeping them all off the gens on maps are too large and the gens are too far apart. If you fail to guess properly the Survivors already have more control over the match than you ever will even without perks that allow them to escape or take extra hits.
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@Almo said:
We expected outrage when doing a fundamental change to a perk used in such a large percentage of games. However, after playing with the new version, we're much happier with how it functions in the game as part of the whole system.
I hope you guys are going to be watching the metrics like a hawk when this hits open air. I'm willing to bet that the average length of games at any rank higher than green will tank hard. I agree that Ruin needed to get the axe but it was propping up something that was broken without it. People keep calling it a crutch. It's not a crutch: It's more like a structural beam that now needs to be addressed directly. What I really hope is that your intent was to fix the problem that caused so many people to take Ruin: Games can be far, far too short.
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@[Deleted User] said:
adapt
Yes, adapt by choosing the next most viable way to compete with SWF teams of survivors. Killers have spent half of their perk slots to get two extra minutes of time to complete their objective. Ruin did need to be put down, but not without extending the base game length.
You know what'd be great? Make survivors find gas to put in the generators. That'd solve the problem.
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@CrummyCookie said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/117882/are-there-any-no-ruin-killers-here
No. Every killer relies on that crutch perk then cries when it gets destroyed
Better watch your tongue or they'll start using NOED and Ebony Moris instead.
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But what does the kill rate mean exactly? What's the context here? What would be the optimal killrate? 25% or 50%? Why either of those but not 70%? Where do we draw the line and why? Conventional game logic dictates that dying in a game about survival is failure right? But then from the Killer's perspective failure is a gradient scale: If you got 1 kill and 3 escapes did you succeed? How high does that number have to be before the killer "wins?"
Asymmetrical games are too complicated to be boiled down to these simple concepts like raw killrate. Citing them doesn't really prove anything because the mechanics are more complex than that. In a conventional game if one faction is overpowered they win more often. In Dead By Daylight a Killer fails in quarters and Survivors fail individually.
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@Venom368 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/971127#Comment_971127
Survivors perks would never be nerfed if Killer's fun was never considered.
I agree about the last statement you have. I don't understand why some people feel like they can only have fun at the expense of other players. I'm not a fan of that mindset.
Ruin in no way affects how much fun I'm going to be able to have in a game. I don't understand why being 'meaner' because games are going to be shorter is required. I can have just as much fun in a game that lasts 2 minutes less when I'm not running Ruin as opposed to a game where I am running Ruin. I might get less downs or hooks, but that doesn't mean I'm having less fun.
I see all these killer posts threatening that they have to face camp now, but face camping just makes games end quicker and in a worse spot for the killer, so I'm confused. It seems like the posts are more coming from 'I'm gonna be mean unless the devs give me what I want' rather than 'I'm going to have to get used to playing without Ruin'.
I'm glad somebody saw that post before I tried to edit it and the auto-moderation system ate it. I'll admit: I mostly play Killer and I tend to play during Blood Hunts so I end up lurking the lesser rank tiers. If I'm playing against people that seem to be struggling I'll even dial back the pressure or just leave people slugged instead of hooking them a third time. I've even went and hid in the basement because I felt like the survivors needed a little break.
The higher my rank gets the less this happens, obviously. I have to start playing the pressure game from the start and do it as hard as I possibly can in order to have a chance against SWF in mid-ranks. (And as far as I know there's no warning that I'll be playing against SWF, even though one would be both nice and a reasonable piece of information to ask for.)
By red ranks everything is cutthroat and Killer is a struggle to get as much out of every second as you possibly can while Survivor becomes an exercise in creating a meta perk toolset and (ab)using it as much as you can.
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@Venom368 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/970731#Comment_970731
You got a point, I haven't seen a post made directly addressing 'fun' for killers. It might have been mentioned in posts related the several survivor perk nerfs that have happened, but i don't remember.
They already addressed they would never directly put a penalty on SWF, but rather try to balance the game around it, which they are working towards. They answered my question in their livestream Q&A about if they had further changes for perks to bring solo queue closer to SWF (like they did with the kindred changes) and they acknowledged they did.
Catering towards survivor fun is kind of required, sadly, when 80% of the playerbase is playing survivor at any given time. I don't think there's much you can do about that in an asymmetrical game like this.
Regardless, I'm optimistic about the future changes and have faith in the devs decisions. Even though I've found some changes to be questionable, I can look at the game 1 year ago and how it is today and realize that it is undeniably more balanced than it was. So the devs must be doing something right
Catering toward everyone's fun is required. The problem is that Killers get no such consideration. Killers have progressively fewer tools, games are getting shorter, and higher ranks demand a form of metagame that is not fun in any capacity. Then on top of that Survivors get an arsenal of extremely useful perks that are all useful on their own while Killers often have to combine perks for synergy or they absolutely will fail.
Then there's the courtesies that Survivors expect of killers like not using NOED, not "tunneling" when removing players from the game is all but necessary, and not "proxy camping" or whatever BS they came up with when Killers realized hook camping isn't efficient anyway.
Any survivor mains that think this state of affairs is good remember this: The more utility Killers lose the harsher the meta gets. Then, after you've forced Killers to play a certain way, you'll decide it's not fair anymore so they have to find a new way to compete against an ever-changing standard of what's "fun."
Remember this too: The moment you make this game about having fun at your opponent's expense the entire premise of the game is mortally wounded and doomed to die.
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I find it amusing that the OP of this thread has Balanced Landing as their avatar. Makes me wonder if this is an ironic joke even though it's probably not. Poe's law and all. You know what else wasn't OP? Moonwalking Legions. Didn't stop them from nerfing Legion into the ground.
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BHVR seem hell bent on making Deep Wounds a match lengthener instead of actually being directly useful. I'm pretty bitter about it but I'm waiting to see how End Game Collapse interacts with it before I start getting too bitchy.
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The penalty is that three survivors have 25 seconds to do gens.
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OP's avatar is Freddy Krueger: Dream demon, mass murderer, and child molestor. I would consider shanking a janitor rather less evil than that.
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If you're in the trials you're already The Entity's dinner. Escape is an illusion.
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I once lied to a bunch of SWF'tards that cheesed me hard on Hattonfield. They got smug after the round so I told them to feel proud for having defeated a Prestige 6 Killer. Taking the bait, they immediately launched into a vitriolic insult spree and were too stupid to notice that I had fewer than four perks and was obviously playing a low level unprestiged character. At that moment I realized that I should not have sympathy for anyone.
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Yeah it's "very nice" if you want Legion thrown in a garbage bin and never taken back out again. Nerf the hell out of a barely to-par killer then stick him with a 4.4% movement speed increase while making his power even more crappy and boring than it was before. What part of these changes is supposed to make Legion more fun? I guess none of it. What a let down.
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@McFred https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/on+pins+and+needles
It's more of wordplay on an expression, but if you don't like it you don't like it.
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While they're all the same franchise there's three distinct forms of Evil Dead:
Evil Dead 1: Pretty standard cabin horror B movie with gallons of fake blood.
Evil Dead 2 & Army of Darkness: Dark Comedy with light horror elements. This is what people like.
The Evil Dead: Rebooted Evil Dead 1, plays its cards straight but tries too hard to be edgy.
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Can we call the Chapter "On Pins and Needles?"
