CrypticGirl
CrypticGirl
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@Raptorrotas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4044931#Comment_4044931
Would you kindly elaborate how tunneling is a shortcut?
And please dont tell me you mean "choses same survivor multiple times in a row" or "focuses down one survivor. Thats hillariously the same as "playing normally" on survivor by sitting on the same gen as much as possible.
Yeah, once you've forced that one Survivor out of the game at five gens, it's an autowin for you at that point.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4044907#Comment_4044907
Well if you go against good survivors with killer that isnt super strong like wraith or knight,dreadge and have 0-1 hooks while survivors did 3 gens and are doing last two and you struggle to get downs because many strong loops are in the games with pallets still up because they did those gens fast than you must tunnel or do something to gain preasure because 12 hooking wont save you here (unless you have strong killer and somehow pull multiple downs and hoooks or slugs in short time but those killers I mentioned cant do that compare to billy,blight,dracula,ghoul so they must use those strategies unless they basicaly loose or just end up on having one guy hooked when gates are powered and having to fight for that one kill).
If you think tunneling inflates someones mmr that I believe its good thing isnt it? Why? Because these people will eventualy hit a wall and face teams that are beyoned their skill so its less baggage for avarage survivors or survivors that would normaly play against this killer. In my oppinion its god thing they go up to stars and hit a wall because they aim for it so Idk whats your problem with it because these people want to win and they wouldnt play nice even if tunneling would be nerfed hard (probably sluged hard or just played strongest killers for getting that win because in every game the best stuff is picked by people that want to win and have the best stuff its just normal thing you cant change).
And Survivors face the same dilemma all the time Killers have everyone on death hook and Survivors still have five gens to repair and they struggle to get on a gen because they constantly have to save each other and unlike Killers they have no cheesy strategy to fall back on to catch up so it's basically game over and there's nothing they can do about it.
Inflating MMR isn't a good thing if you don't have the skill to keep up with your opponents that's why Killers cling to tunneling like an addiction and they just can't stop Killers hit the wall but they rely on tunneling to break through it and that's why they do it because they just can't stand the wall getting in their way the whole reason the wall exists is to keep players on both sides to an equal level but when Killers break the wall everything goes off balance and that's why tunneling is busted and complained about because Survivors have no way to break through said wall.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4044907#Comment_4044907
so i go from winning 60% which is balanced to winning 20% if im lucky….no tunneling to inflate MMR and your answer is to intentioanlly handicap myself by refusing to play optimally? ok so if survivors are losing match after match they should intentionally play less optimally? i mean if its too hot and they cant handle it then trying to win will make it hotter right? makes no sense.
Logically if someone is losing then they should do the opposite of what you suggest. Its not the first time you have suggested people should intentionally perform worse than they are able to. In what world does your logic make any sense? cant win? dont try to win because you will get harder matches? If this is the mentality of survivors then its no wonder they are getting steam rolled so often.
Tunneling isn't "playing optimally," it's taking a shortcut. Instead of running faster to win the race, you cut across the track.
Survivor is a completely different game, so the comparison doesn't hold here. Survivors are always expected to improve, loop better, play better, etc. Why are Killers not held to that standard? Why are only Survivors' skills expected to improve while Killers' skills are expected to remain static?
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4044903#Comment_4044903
exactly the fact is thats my personal experience which many others have said they felt the same way.
I can only assume your either playing high to top tier killers or you have not been getting enough wins to get actual good teams
Using a legit tactic to inflate mmr beyond the skill level can be applied to literally anything….using sprint burst every match might inflate a survivors MMR beyond their skill level, or using swf with comms might have inflated a survivors MMR beyond their skill level which might be why some survivors that play SWF regularly struggle in soloq. Or that killers using S tier meta build to compete with 4 man swf swat teams have used S tier meta to inflate their MMR? Makes 0 sense to say something that is legitimatly in the game or a lgitimate tactic has inflated MMR
Not only that, but based on using tunneling to inflate MMR….how would explain it when i never used to tunnel? Based on my experience i raised my MMR without tunneling THEN hit the SWF squads over and over, so i dont know how tunneling could have been used to inflate MMR.
You obviously think winning is impossible if you think tunneling is needed. Tunneling inflated your MMR even more than you already had before you started tunneling. If the game was getting too hot for you, your solution was to make it even hotter?
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@Balrog said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4044012#Comment_4044012
Unfortunately, it just isn't possible for us to be able to offer it outside of Steam. We really wish everyone could test the PTB, too.
There have been suggestions to test it in a separate event-style queue. Is that not possible?
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042866#Comment_4042866
This is what i have been saying, my advice has been to stealth and play more selfishly….maybe not as much as me (do whatever works for you) but thats pretty much all i have been trying to say. Might help with lessening the likelihood of being tunneled and can improve escape rates like it did for me. Just careful you dont assume someone has done nothing all match lol so many people make assumptions based on 5 sec of info. i went in a locker once for couple sec because killer was coming near me carrying a survivor. after killer left the area i unhooked them, healed them and went back to my gen. end of the match i was accused of hiding in a locker all match because all that survivor saw was me leaving a locker one time. Thats the thanks i get for saving them. Or when i done 4 or even 5 gens on my own because no one else will do them, i have been accused of ratting in the corner all match…. impressive feat to do 5 gens while standing in the corner but because the killer couldnt find me they assumed.
I don't just "assume" someone has done nothing all match. I use the info given to me, whether from the HUD or from Kindred, or when I'm downed/hooked, I can see everyone's aura. So when I say someone is doing nothing, I'm going by a lot more than five seconds of info.
Since you were generous to share your Bubba match, I'll share a match of mine, too. This was probably the last match I've had that I would consider "epic." We all did our part, we all got a piece of the action, and we almost lost, but our team was saved by No Mither of all perks! This was Chaos Shuffle, btw, so it's not like she chose that perk. And I didn't have my precious Kindred, but thankfully the No Mither teammate did, so I used that info to my advantage. One thing I noted during my chases was that this Wesker loved his mindgames. Always double-backing, running backwards to hide his red stain, etc.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2411619708 -
@Leon_van_Straken said:
A 1v1 isn´t a good idea at all.
First of all it will only spread toxicity, since the Survivor will always lose this mode either it takes 10 seconds or 10 minutes.
The difference is that this will breed toxicity. "Lol noob easy down" or "Lol you took 1.20 minute to get me what a baby Killer"
There is no defined Victory there and even if you would say if the Survivor got chased for 2 minutes and it is a victory for the Survivor it still didn´t say anything about skill. Because if you reach that chase time while only throwing 1 or 2 pallets respect. If you reach it my shift W and pre drop. Well… is that skill? I mean… I could write a bot to do this.
I fail to see how playing 1v1 with a friend would spread toxicity… 😕
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042862#Comment_4042862
Thats not what i asked, i asked if you thought you morals prevents you from improving. if you struggled with killer you already said you wouldnt tunnel and be ok with the loss due to your moral objections regarding tunneling. As survivor do you have moral objections to stealth and selfish play which may or may not aid in your escape rates and enjoyment of the game?
I don't have moral objections to stealth and selfish play when the timing for it is right. If I see a teammate hiding and doing nothing from start to finish, yeah, I would object. On the other hand, if I'm hanging on hook in endgame and the Killer is camping, I don't mind the teammates being selfish and leaving me.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042858#Comment_4042858
i think playing by the rules to achieve a win is honourable. cheating isnt honourable and griefers/bully squads are not honourable because they dont want to win they want to annoy the other other player even at the cost of winning.
Going by that definition, yes, I do play honorably as Survivor.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042851#Comment_4042851
I dont consider my actions dishonourable. Brutally harsh and cold maybe but not dishonourable. Actions like playing stealth (i mean stealth not rat), playing selfishly and thinking of my escape above all others. These actions are part of the game as far as im concerned. When im killer i have seen some survivors like me and i dont consider them dishonourable for walking out the gate when im securing an end game kill i think "smart move".
That wasn't what I asked. I asked what you would find honorable, not dishonorable.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042845#Comment_4042845
do you think your morals are getting in the way of your improvement? For example, you said even if you were in a position where tunneling was the right call, you still wouldnt do it and your ok with the loss. Does this apply to survivor too? I have offered advice on how to counter tunneling. Some might call it dishonourable to do what i do but it does help me counter the common issues people seem to have, it does help me win and does help me have fun in my matches.
That depends on what Survivor actions you would consider honorable from a Killer perspective. Do you even think there are any?
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042841#Comment_4042841
Thats neat. More power to you. But its not going to help you understand how to effectively counter it, which leads me back to what you're trying to accomplish. If you are just trying to spread good vibes, great, we could all use more of that! But if you want to reduce the impact an unfun situation has when you find yourself in it, self destructive levels of moral superiority is not going to do you any favors. In a genre like fighting games, refusing to engage in basic concepts like zoning or neutral because of moral objections means accepting you will never improve as a player, and is a mindset that is actively looked down on in almost every genre, like @Reinami has been arguing. Pretty sure TLC even wrote a song about it a few decades ago.
My point isn't to argue. I stick with these discussions because I do honestly intend to expand people's mindsets to their opponents, regardless of how any of us personally feel about them. If you don't want to learn from it, I have to reiterate, what do you hope to gain?
Mainly? Understanding. You say you play Survivor, you say you've been tunneled and learned how to counter it, so it sounds like you should understand. I'm just having trouble seeing that in your responses.
I've play thousands of matches since I first started, I've got about 3300 hours overall. If that hasn't helped me improve, then what will?
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042833#Comment_4042833
But being good enough to counter tunneling isn't going to make it any more fun to go against.Then you can't find enjoyment from improvement, nor better outcomes, nor punishing people for relying on such strategies as a crutch. I'm going to have to assume you've never had to adapt to an aspect of a game you dislike, because being able to turn frustraton into delayed gratification and enjoyment is pretty common when experiencing those types of improvements. Or you could just compound your frustration and demand the devs cater to your lack of enjoyment and make others enjoy the game even less in the process. This is why I keep trying to emphasize to you that it is empathetic advice, regardless of whether you're willing to accept it.
The only scenario I haven't been in is the one doing the tunneling. But what do the first four scenarios have in common?None of them are fun!So you've never been in a situation where tunneling was the right call? How can you be as dismissive when you haven't even worn your opponent's shoes? I do not believe that tunneling is always the necessary play to compete in the game, but I don't have the hubris to claim a stance as absolute as yours without even experiencing it.
I have been tunneled. I have been tunneled many times, by many killers. Some better than me, some not. But the biggest growth I learned in how to tunnel it came from trying it myself, from seeing how people misdirect, their routing, their pathing, how they used tools mid chase to buy distance or time, etc. If you refuse to improve, and you refuse to put yourself in your enemy's shoes, what do you hope to achieve with your complaints? It feels like you want to demand empathy while refusing to show an ounce yourself, and I'm saying that in the hopes you might change that outlook. You will only keep burning yourself out and hating the game more and more over time, even if you get your way about things.
Pointing this out every time is just as pointless as pointing out that anti-camp is actually anti-FACEcamp. We KNOW that all Killers are not the same, all Survivors are not the same, so I'm sorry I can't specify that in every single comment I make.Then why did you barge into the topic blaming killers right off the bat? The topic is supposed to be about a bipartisan concept, considering the perspective of your opponent, yet all I see are complaints that your opponents refuse to do so while refusing to be the better person. I'll stop pointing it out when you stop doing it, especially when I have not made the claims you are arguing at me.
But in this case, I believe the generalization is accurate because jesterkind is the ONLY Killer player I've seen state and explain why tunneling is unhealthy for the game as a whole. Yes, they may have played Survivor as well, but they've stated that they areprimarilya Killer player.I've discussed it multiple times, and even proposed solutions to it on many occasions. I apologize I don't lead every post with a resume of every stance I've ever had in DBD (as most people don't do this) so maybe it would be more effective to go off of what individuals say, rather than what you project onto entire role (one which I, ironically, rarely play.) Empathy helps with not making those generalizations. You can agree and disagree with people regardless of what role they main, the important thing is to address their points (whether for or against) independent of any such affiliations, and take their experiences into consideration.
All those nuances mean little, because the tunneled Survivor still dies too quickly, leading to the quick death of the whole team. In fact, there's an active topic about that...There's also countless experiences of survivors, many of which are even on sites like youtube and twitch, not only escaping being tunneled but turning it into a game losing move for the killer. The way this is worded tells me you care more about being validated than you do understanding your opponent, which makes me question why you would keep posting in a topic about the latter.
I honestly don't know what you hope to gain from this conversation.
So you've never been in a situation where tunneling was the right call?
Even when tunneling was the right call, I still wouldn't do it. If I lose as a result, fine. I prefer to play with honor and lose than sweat my arse off and win.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042781#Comment_4042781
All I have said is that tunneling is not necessary to win, and that tunneling is too strong in its current state.I just reposted the exact comment you barged into the topic with, immediately shifting blame toward killer players without displaying the empathy for your opponent the topic was centered around. Empathy doesn't mean giving your opponent things for free, it means understanding why they play the way they do. Making a demonization assumption right off the bat isn't the best way to achieve that.
Just so we have a baseline, this is the Webster's exact primary definiton of empathy:
"the action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts, and experience of another"
With its connection to sympathy, with its primary defintion from the same source:
"a feeling or expression of sincere concern for someone who is experiencing something difficult or painful"
To which I ask: Which term and/or definition does introducing any element of specifically us vs them rhetoric serve?
And I'll also say that telling Survivors to "get gud so you don't get tunneled" is also lacking empathy.It actually is empathetic, because its exactly how I dealt with it over the years, and regularly see killer players discuss identifying weak links when they play. I just put two and two together and realized that sometimes the harshest truth can be the most productive when appropriately placed. You could argue it's not as sympathetic unless worded in a particularly edgeless fashion, but its certain empathetic. They want you to take the advice so that you will improve your enjoyment of the game through improvement and minimizing the scenario you dislike.
Killers seem to think tunneling is fine because it's "the most efficient/optimal way to play." But let's flip the card over.More generalizations. "Killers" aren't one person any more than "Survivors" are. Instead of flipping it over, why not zoom out your perspective?
Imagine that Survivors can cooperate on one generator, and the number of gens that pop would be equivalent to the number of Survivors on that one gen. Example: three Survivors on that one gen = three gens pop. That would be incredibly busted, wouldn't it?Yes, and this is known as a strawman. Its an extreme version of an argument that has not been made, designed specifically to attack for its silliness. You are arguing at someone about outlandish expectations who is instead trying to help you find common ground.
And yet for Survivors, that would be the most efficient way to play.If the survivors were able to completely destroy the intended design of the game, yes, that would be both busted and the most efficient way to play. If the implication here is that I think LCD strats like tunneling are how the game should ideally be played, that would be one of the dangers of making these types of generalizations. I want LCD strats replaced with healthy alternatives, but I also recognize that there are many situations where they are the correct play. Your lack of understanding the opposing perspective makes you seem to think any time someone defends those tactics as being either possible or relative to that state in the game, they must be advocating for something as ridiculous as your strawman's impact would be on the game's foundation. That makes you look even more unreasonable to anyone who doesn't already agree with you.
Survivors would tell Killers, "Just get gud so they can't work on the same gen." Would Killers be okay with that? What chance would the Killer have of winning at that point?That is both poisoning the well and misrepresenting an argument. In the scenario you gave, it would be pretty difficult to not see how being able to skip gens as a resource while simultaneously consolidating 3/5ths of the objective in such a way would destry multiple core components of the game. But for your comparison to work regarding things like tunneling, you would have to similarly ignore all of its nuances: Time per hook stage, time per rechase/down/hook/etc for 3 hook states (have to include the original chase, of course) and decide that the other survivors could accomplish nothing with that amount of time. When you are tunneled, you have one role: Waste as much of the killer's time as possible, to give your teammates a chance of punishing that decision. When you are not the one tunneled, your role changes to accomplishing as much of your objective as possible to utilize that time as efficiently as you can. That is not even remotely the same as 3/5ths of the objective being done with almost the entire map still having further gens to do. Even if you were under the assumption of that one gen popping three other gens instead of just counting as 3 gen pops, that still defeats the potential of concepts like map pressure, and FURTHER LEADS KILLERS TO FOCUS ON STRICTLY THE MOST EFFICIENT PLAY POSSIBLE DUE TO TIME'S VALUE TO THESE ELEMENTS IN THE CORE GAME LOOP. In other words, even if your comparison, the result is still the same: Don't assume your enemy is just out to get you just because they aren't actively self sabotaging in your face.
That's exactly the same kind of effect that tunneling has on Survivors. So how anyone can be okay with that is beyond me.The fact you think thats exactly the same is why it remains beyond you. Thats the danger of things like conflating arguments and embracing us vs them mentalities.
But being good enough to counter tunneling isn't going to make it any more fun to go against. I've been in four out of five tunneling scenarios: One, I've been tunneled and died quickly because of it. Two, I've been tunneled, but ran the Killer long enough for the teammates to finish the gens and leave out the gate as I die. Three, I've had teammates tunneled and die quickly, and we're too busy saving them in order to do the gens. Four, the tunneled teammate is able to loop the Killer long enough for the rest of us to rush the gens and escape. The only scenario I haven't been in is the one doing the tunneling. But what do the first four scenarios have in common? None of them are fun!
More generalizations. "Killers" aren't one person any more than "Survivors" are. Instead of flipping it over, why not zoom out your perspective?
Pointing this out every time is just as pointless as pointing out that anti-camp is actually anti-FACEcamp. We KNOW that all Killers are not the same, all Survivors are not the same, so I'm sorry I can't specify that in every single comment I make.
But in this case, I believe the generalization is accurate because jesterkind is the ONLY Killer player I've seen state and explain why tunneling is unhealthy for the game as a whole. Yes, they may have played Survivor as well, but they've stated that they are primarily a Killer player.
But for your comparison to work regarding things like tunneling, you would have to similarly ignore all of its nuances:
All those nuances mean little, because the tunneled Survivor still dies too quickly, leading to the quick death of the whole team. In fact, there's an active topic about that...
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/462216/killers-win-if-they-kill-1-survivor-early#latest
While that thread isn't specifically about tunneling, it is a major factor in why Killers tunnel. (Do I also need to point out that I'm aware that it isn't the ONLY reason?)
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@YaBoi0215 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042614#Comment_4042614
I haven't turned towards the Killer role myself. I play 85-90% survivor but I still have this mentality. I want to win the game. I will do everything the game allows me to do to win the game. If I can loop a killer for 5 gens and leave then I will 100% do that. If I can get my team on multiple gens to pop them as fast as possible, I will 100% do that. And I will expect the killer to tunnel, slug, camp, hold a 3 gen, etc. to win as well. It's what you signup for when you load into a competitive online game. I never expect my opponent to not take the game serious and try to win.
I personally think this is something the BHVR can easily fix as well. If they just added a Quick Play and a Ranked Play queues for the game than I think this sentiment would be better accepted. That how I feel in games like Overwatch or Marvel Rivals. When I load up Quick Play it's mainly to just have fun and try out new things so I'm not going all out. If I load up Ranked Play then I am picking my best character and trying my absolute hardest to win the match. BHVR adding these separate queues would allow new players and people just looking for casual fun to find it in Quick Play and then the hyper sweats, like myself, can go load up Ranked Play and try their hardest to win.
I had put up a suggestion for a "chase mode" or "1v1" mode, but no one responded to it. So I guess no one liked the idea…
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042781#Comment_4042781
But that is precisely the point i have been making. You say that tunneling is not "necessary to win" i agree with that. You also state that "tunneling is too strong"
Ok then, fine, its took strong, and should be nerfed or changed and its clear the devs are doing that.
Now answer to me. If my goal is to win the game, why would i not tunnel every single time? If it is strategically the best strategy for me to use to optimize my chances of winning the game why would i not do it? Now you claim its because "i should have empathy" but that is EXACTLY MY POINT. Why is it that the DBD community and the game in general for some reason is the only multiplayer game where the majority of the player base thinks that you should intentionally not use the best strategy to win the game because its "not nice" or "mean" No other game is like that. There are sometimes people who think that yes, but they are the small minority. But in DBD for some reason everyone loses all sense and decides that we suddenly need to "think of the children" and "be nice" when playing.
My question is. Why?
I think cogsturning gave a pretty good answer to that. I'm afraid I don't have an answer, because I haven't played any other pvp games, so I have no idea what those other games are like.
Ok then, fine, its took strong, and should be nerfed or changed and its clear the devs are doing that.
Are they really? They've scrapped the past two tunnel/slug reduction systems, with no indication that they're going to try again, so it's not really that clear.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042767#Comment_4042767
Thats what you tell a killer when you tell them to not tunnel someone who refuses to leave during their protections, makes extremely obvious misplays right in front of the killer, or just is generally the architect of their own demise. Part of why people say improving at looping makes you less likely to get tunneled, for example, is because it makes you less likely to find yourself in a situation where the killer tunneling you out is the objectively correct move. Telling a killer they shouldn't take advantage of situations that fall into their lap is equivalent to telling a survivor to not finish gens, but without the context of said interaction, a survivor would be free to assume the killer must have malicious intent in such a decision.
All I have said is that tunneling is not necessary to win, and that tunneling is too strong in its current state. And I'll also say that telling Survivors to "get gud so you don't get tunneled" is also lacking empathy. Killers seem to think tunneling is fine because it's "the most efficient/optimal way to play." But let's flip the card over. Imagine that Survivors can cooperate on one generator, and the number of gens that pop would be equivalent to the number of Survivors on that one gen. Example: three Survivors on that one gen = three gens pop. That would be incredibly busted, wouldn't it? And yet for Survivors, that would be the most efficient way to play. Survivors would tell Killers, "Just get gud so they can't work on the same gen." Would Killers be okay with that? What chance would the Killer have of winning at that point? That's exactly the same kind of effect that tunneling has on Survivors. So how anyone can be okay with that is beyond me.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042752#Comment_4042752
You came into a topic about increasing empathy for one's opponent with a loaded us vs them argument, and you don't seem to be understanding the hypocrisy in your stance. They're not claiming you should purposely misplay in order to be nice to your opponent, in fact thats the exact point they seem to be trying to drive home. If you understand that as a concept, why jump into the topic trying to make it one side's fault specifically? Reminder, this was the comment that probably got you those responses:
I think the bigger problem is that some players, mostly on the Killer side, take the game too seriously, and feel that anything less than a 100% win rate is unacceptable.It takes a universal issue that crosses roles, and tries to paint it specifically as being instigated by one side while minimizing the prevalence of it on the other. One of the most misleading things about the survivor role as a survivor is that most survivors do not play the same as any one of us, and we have no idea what they're doing when not being told in some way. I can assure you that with a prevalence of 4 to 1 in a given match, the liklihood of that mentality applying to a survivor is much higher than it is a killer, even if the tactics and methods employed are different. Thats not a point worth dwelling on though, as we can only adjust our own behavior, so the important takeaway is to just be mindful on when you are unintentionally giving that impression to your opponent. I believe that was likely the intention of the examples, outlining that its not worth getting upset at someone for playing to win when its something we all do.
If that was the point they were making, telling me to stop doing my gen so that the Killer doesn't feel bad isn't going to get it across.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042742#Comment_4042742
I think their point is that playing to win isn't a killer specific thing, and that things that feel miserable to one side are often unavoidable consequences of that. Unavoidable besides sandbagging oneself, of course.
Having empathy for your opponent isn't just being glad when you aren't the one getting dunked, its understanding that they're not personally trying to make your experience worse by trying to win, that just ends up being a consequence of how most interactions in the game are designed. Objective denial is a topic this applies to frequently, everything from gen regression and securing a hook stage to saves and sabos. You can dislike individual tactics employed, but constantly assuming ill intent with a net as wide as "wanting to win the video game" is a bit much. Unfortunately in the current state of the game, all you can really do is go as hard as you can out of the gate and then adjust to your opponent's pace, and that certainly applies to both sides. The early game is just universally too important to how time scales for the rest of the match.
And they're making a bigger assumption by claiming that I'm assuming that all Killers are toxic when they tunnel or whatever. I don't think all Killers tunnel to be toxic (but I have seen a few that do). I recognize when they do it to win, and yes it sucks when they do, but I just move on. Are they claiming I'm supposed to be nice to a Killer who's tunneling me?
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042729#Comment_4042729
yet it doesnt stop you doing what you were doing because you felt bad for the killer. you wanted to win… you could see all 3 gens were going to be done at the same time, you could have stopped doing your gen. My point is you and the team as a whole could be seen as making the game as miserable as possible for the killer because you wanted to win, you were playing the game. This is what many killers do, they play the game, they try to win….maybe they feel bad for tunneling maybe they dont but they dont try to make survivors games as miserable as possible they just try to win, just like you.
Actually I assumed that the other two were on the same gen. I only knew that I was on my gen alone.
Anyways what are you trying to accomplish with this constant gotcha?
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042631#Comment_4042631
so if you could loop a killer for 5 gens, would you care how the killer feels? or if you blind the killer for a flashlight save after they spent ages to get a down, do you care about how the killer might feel about that?
Yeah, I do feel bad when we end up stomping all over the Killer. One match where I had a hacking teammate who kept remote flashlight saving me, and the Killer DC'd? Yeah, I felt bad. That poor Killer literally couldn't do anything. Another match where a Clown chased and hooked a Meg while the three of us were on three separate gens, and they all popped near-simultaneously, leading to the Killer's DC? I didn't blame him at all.
Just a few examples.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042614#Comment_4042614
by too seriously you mean they want to win so they do what the rules of the game permits to do so? There is nothing wrong with trying to improve, trying to get better results. tbh i play both sides but im actually finding survivor the easier role play right now.
They want to win, so they do everything in their power to make the other side miserable, and they don't care how their opponents feel. All they care about is winning.
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I think the bigger problem is that some players, mostly on the Killer side, take the game too seriously, and feel that anything less than a 100% win rate is unacceptable. Survivor players who feel that way will likely turn to the Killer role, because they tire of being stomped on and Killers are naturally stronger.
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I got twin Steve's with Scene Partner in my lobby this morning. I think the third teammate got annoyed with them and DC'd because of it. The Killer killed the Steve's and then the bot, and then let me crawl out the gate (since somehow we did manage to finish all the gens, lol).
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@Zuiphrode said:
Frankly I just don't believe people when they say "oh my internet went out". This isn't 1993 and none of you are on a 56k modem. You just want to leave at the first down/hit/when the killer is someone you don't like with impunity.
This may not be 1993, but despite the internet in general being majorly improved since then, hiccups absolutely can and will happen to anyone at anytime for any reason. In fact, the ones who claim that their internet never goes out ever are the ones who are lying. The truth is that humans aren't perfect, so neither is anything they design.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042448#Comment_4042448
I mean. No.
There's no way of arguing even the overtuned aura reading tools in the game at any stage were passive at all, let alone insanely passive.
I think the only passive aura reading in the game right now is Lethal Pursuer, and coincidentally that's the one Distortion hard counters. Every other aura reading tool in the game has a trigger.
You could maybe make the argument for something like Undying being passive, but I'd like to do you the courtesy of assuming that isn't what you're saying here. Any relevant aura tool has both a trigger and a timer, often having a distance requirement as well.If you want a killer tool that actually represents the same idea and is problematic for the same reasons as old Distortion, it's Lightborn.
Weave Attunement is pretty passive, too, and still pretty busted even in its current state.
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I got it with Hyperfocus and Stake Out. And a Commodious Toolbox.
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So from my spreadsheet for December (last month), these are the Killers I faced.
Shape - 9
Ghoul - 8
Animatronic - 7
Deathslinger - 4
Mastermind - 4
Trapper - 4
Onryo - 3
Spirit - 3
Clown - 2
Doctor - 2
Dredge - 2
Ghostface - 2
Huntress - 2
Knight - 2
Krasue - 2
Legion - 2
Lich - 2
Nemesis - 2
Singularity - 2
Artist - 1
Cannibal - 1
Dark Lord - 1
Good Guy - 1
Hillbilly - 1
Nightmare - 1
Oni - 1
Pig - 1
Skull Merchant - 1
Wraith - 1
Xenomorph - 1
Any Killers missing from the list, I didn't see them at all.
As for Killers I have Prestiged, I have Trickster, Huntress, and Wraith at P3. Everyone else is P1 (except P2 Trapper.) Animatronic, Ghoul, and Krasue I don't have at all.
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Mass BP spending and the faster login. I can do stuff while waiting for the game to get to the main menu rather than coming back to the screen "Press any button to continue" or whatever, and then having to wait even longer to get to the menus…
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041566#Comment_4041566
and you dont see an issue with the fact that that people are actively trying to win and trying hard to do so but still get beaten by people casually playing the game not even that bothered if they win?
Why do you think that's an issue? And what do you suppose should be done about it? Is it really an issue that requires dev intervention?
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Yeah, I'm pretty sure that challenge won't be happening for me. Thankfully I've already completed the rift…
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@drag27 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041385#Comment_4041385
heh yea, then afterwards they nerf the hell out of something for survivors. hows that been working out?
Of course you'd bring that up because that would work great for you.
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@drag27 said:
you got basekit BT and perks like DS, DH. you guys need to accept the fact that they are not going to delete tunneling completely
No, but they can sure nerf the hell out of it.
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@Anti051 said:
Why would the devs listen to a bunch of emotional noobs demanding a change that would prevent most of the killer roster from being able to stop survivors from escaping in advanced play?
The only way that hardcore blockages on "tunneling" could work is if it becomes physically impossible to complete all gens in under 4 minutes. Too many of you stop your thought process at getting what you want without considering if there would still be a contest afterward.
Most of the survivor horde evidently thinks that every killer has the same level of power and that they should all be forced to play for 12 hooks (in perfect rotating order) on top of multiple second chances inside of a 4-minute timer and that "if they're good enough" they can still stop everybody no matter which killer is being played.
Unironically complaining that you're not being listened to when you're literally asking the dev to break the contest of the game for your own egoic satisfaction = WeirdMaxxing
DbD is becoming one gigantic lesson in game design about what happens when you continuously make developments off the copium-based opinions of game-scrubs.
In reference to the true definition of the word "scrub" as far as game design goes - https://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub
Why would the devs listen to a bunch of emotional noobs demanding a change that would prevent most of the killer roster from being able to stop survivors from escaping in advanced play?
Well, they listened to the emotional noobs on the Killer side, so no reason not to listen to Survivors.
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Lots of people are having the issue, so the only thing we can do is wait, or keep trying.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4040025#Comment_4040025
And yet if they are, you objectively have more chance of a comeback than almost every single different killer does when all remaining survivors are in the exit gate (with very few exceptions.) All survivors being downed is still a check scenario as long as a single one has an opportunity to recover and reset. Even disregarding that, hatch is basekit, and can even have its general location manipulated with offerings. Your chances might not be as high as you would like, nor even very high at all sometimes, but they are more than zero.
Considering how powerful that ability to literally undo the killing blow is, you would think every single game would have at least one person running one, especially with how strong something like conviction is when used properly. And yet instead everyone is allowed to give up before that type of reset, so why would anyone bring it when they can just prematurely give up instead and not even have to be subjected to waiting for their loss? Abandoning being available literally discourages using the tools that are given to prevent the situation, so they become as underutilized as kindred. Meanwhile, when people talk about scenarios in the exit gate where hitting out is literally non-gameplay, they are talking about ones where even those small chances do not exist. It is a true checkmate, requiring survivors to directly undermine their own victory for any other outcome to occur.
When people talk about the double standard, they're not necessarily talking about stuff like just the exit gates being powered. Checkmate scenarios don't actually occur on the survivor side until much later than people lament, and it often causes them to prevent themselves from even getting an opportunity to utilize those chances. Since we can't control the agency of other players in things like their loadout, we can always instead be that person for the team (and ourselves.) Unfortunately, like you mentioned, the assumption that nobody else will bother means they might not even wait for you to start the reset, so defeatism strikes again.
Even disregarding that, hatch is basekit, and can even have its general location manipulated with offerings.
Hatch offerings don't really help anyone, except perhaps the person who used it now that they're secret. Even back when they were revealed to everyone, I always hated seeing it, because it also told the Killer where it would spawn. And the Killer would have a much higher chance of reaching it first due to their base quicker mobility, and even more so if that last Survivor is slugged. Sure, one can plan for that with certain perks, but that would be the rat build that no one seems to like. And I don't particularly enjoy playing the rat either.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4040010#Comment_4040010
there is hope when everyone is slugged, someone could have a perk to recover. slugs can move….when all spread out the killer cant defend all slugs, a slug could crawl to a hatch spawn location so when the other 3 bleed out hatch is an option. there is just as little hope for a slugged survivor as there is for the killer with literally no possible way to down a healthy survivor standing 1m from the exit so you cant swing the "hope card" to justify kicking up a fuss over wasted time because it still applies to both sides
Maybe we'll see when we can actually see our teammates' perks. For now, I'm not going to assume that anyone is running anti-slug perks (because 99% of them don't).
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4040004#Comment_4040004
thats making the assumption that all killers that are complaining about it would slug for 4min waiting for them all to bleed out….. which is unlikely the case. i know i havnt intentionally left someone bleed out for 4min because i play to win not to be toxic.
much in the same vein, survivors are ok hiding all match up to an hour when its 2 v 1 hoping 1 dies so the other can get the hatch but they complained about 4min? cant tar everyone with the same brush and not expect the same in return
much in the same vein, survivors are ok hiding all match up to an hour when its 2 v 1 hoping 1 dies so the other can get the hatch but they complained about 4min? cant tar everyone with the same brush and not expect the same in return
Except in that situation, there is still hope. When everyone's slugged, there's no more hope.
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@Junylar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4039949#Comment_4039949
So bleeding the killer of his sanity for 2 minutes of teabagging at the gates is fine then? They value survivors' time, but not the killer's, that was the whole point: symmetrical situation, but different privileges, survivors get to quit the moment they fall on the ground, even if the killer has no intention to slug for 4 minutes, so that dear survivors can skip the mori animation and thus protect their ego, but the killer can't do anything against a bully squad but to obediently endure the humiliation procedure. Survivor sided design, QED.
Interesting how Killers lose their #### over waiting two minutes for Survivors to leave, but they're fine with waiting twice as long for Survivors to bleed out.
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Reverting all the mechanic changes they've done over the past year would be a good start. Who knows what can be done after that...
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@Junylar said:
There is an undeniable objective proof that DbD is indeed survivor sided: the abandon mechanic.
Survivors get to abandon whenever they are outplayed. The killer has no such luxury. The killer only gets to abandon if he wins and all the survivors already abandoned before him. Otherwise, the killer has to endure whatever humiliation survivors decide to throw at him, including the two minutes of teabagging at the gates, while survivors can even skip the mori animation, because of their high survivor privilege. If this is not a survivor-sided mechanic, then I don't know what is.
Easy mode: push them out. Less humiliating than waiting or watching them t-bag. And probably quicker than hitting the abandon button, too.
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@drag27 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4039811#Comment_4039811
and now you failed to factor in:
- it wastes time to break pallets and theres a perk that lets you rebuilds a pallet
- windows can only be block thru certain conditions (rushed 3 times in chase but wont block if you break los, or use of perks)
- Chase perks can be used more than once in chase through certain items or perks (example: anti-exhaustion syringe)
- Bloodlust activates only in a prolonged chase, thus you wasted time on a chase
So if you get downed/tunneled/slugged with all that help and basekits, you definitely have a skill issue
It's not a skill issue because the game is designed to prevent Survivors from looping the Killer forever. And now you failed to factor in:
- The perk that lets you rebuild a pallet, are you talking about Rick's perk? That one isn't even good because you have to waste time opening two chests to activate it, and it's fragile, so the Killer won't have to break it. Some help that is.
- There's a perk that blocks windows, it's called Bamboozle.
- Anti-exhaustion syringe: only once per match, since it consumes the medkit on use.
"Bloodlust activates only in a prolonged chase, thus you wasted time on a chase"
Wouldn't that be all the more reason to not tunnel?
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@drag27 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4039692#Comment_4039692
yea if was an open map with nothing but walls then you'd be right and i would concede. However you left out 3 things you have to factor in:
- pallets
- window vaults
- Chase perks
funny how you conveniently left these 3 out as if killers dont have to worry about pallets still leading to one and another or to window vaults/jungle gym as well as survivor chase perks like lithe/sprintburst/balanced or flashbangs around the corner.
fight it all you want but it still takes more then just chasing and hooking survivors or "chasing survivor off gen" as alot of you love to say, to provide pressure if gens pop too quickly. so far all you have said is that killers should just spread hooks and thats all it takes to get pressure, still havent provide alternatives to tunneling/slugging
And some things you fail to factor in:
- Pallets can be permanently broken
- Window vaults get blocked
- Chase perks only work once per chase.
- Killers get bloodlust.
So if you can't catch anyone with all that help, you definitely have skill issues.
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@jmwjmw27 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4039633#Comment_4039633
I don’t know about you, but I’d rather play optimally and try to win than play suboptimally expecting to lose because I can make an excuse when I do.
That excuse being "I lost because I didn't tunnel?" Or "I lost because I have skill issues?"
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It could work if the Survivor was required to be on death hook before you could mori them. But then again, this would defeat the purpose of the green mori offering. (Or is it blue now? Idek...)
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@drag27 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4039569#Comment_4039569
1st one is invaild. thats just how you WANT killers to play, to you know, give you a chance. "keep survivors occupied" ok how? "give them something to do other than gens" ok HOW?
By hooking them? If you tunnel and keep chasing a single Survivor, that gives the other three nothing to do but gens, and then you get "genrushed" as Killers like to call it. But if you hook one, then go after another, that's two Survivors not doing gens. And then the third Survivor has to go save the hooked person and heal them. That's three Survivors not doing gens. So that's not "giving us a chance" at all.
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@drag27 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4038139#Comment_4038139
so then why dont you tell us then? you sound like you know how to play killer better than us so let's hear it
Sure. Spread hooks, keep Survivors occupied, give them something to do other than gens. Friends 'til the End is a great perk for that.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4039118#Comment_4039118
no one said anything about hiding to avoid being tunneled, i have said many times i have been able to loop the kiiler so long that they abandon chase which means the killers tunneling doesnt work. Your saying there is no skill in looping? no skill expression in the game at all because its all luck and you think that someone like me can be lucky that often, match after match, for years which is the reason why i dont find tunneling an issue….. lol what can anyone say to that mindset? hope your luck improves?
You know, I'm going to be nice and show some of my gameplay. This was one of my better chases, and I consider myself lucky because I normally don't last this long in chase. But why did I do so well this time? Did I do anything particularly skillful? Or was I just lucky that Wesker kept missing his dash attacks (and even vaulted something at the beginning, giving me more distance)? Or was I lucky to get matched with teammates who split up on three separate gens during that chase?
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2447363709 -
@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4039118#Comment_4039118
Thats… what competition is. You are constantly at odds with an opponent, and need to continuously make decisions that elevate yourself into a more favorable position while lowering theirs when it conflicts with your own. Concepts like
"mechanics that ensure the Killer will catch you eventually"are specifically designed due to the 1v4 nature of the game: Nobody is supposed to be able to run the killer for 5 gens in a balanced matchup, much like nobody is supposed to get 4K 5Gen games. The dynamic for the game just isn't built for those extremes, which is why they get pointed out as landslides that shouldn't be possible without the other side essentially allowing them to be.There's a sharp difference between
for longandfor the entire match, which is why eventualities are in place to try to keep the game more in check. The game doesn't directly punish you for extending chases, it just usually requires utilizing a resource that may be consumable. The same reason why so many basekit buffs have been given to both sides, the design is to be about maximum interaction while trying to prevent extremes beyond the player's control (yes, this includes everything short of a checkmate scenario, even when temporarily limited.) Its important to keep that in perspective when not only are the two sides structurally different and at direct odds in their objective, but you have to account for both sides being human players. For everything one person finds unfair while the opponent doesn't, their opponent likely has plenty of situations they feel the same in reverse.Thats why skill compensation is generally kept out of balance conversation unless necessary to set a baseline for the health of the game. Actively limiting more skilled players to compensate for the ones who refuse to adapt and grow is one of the easiest ways to kill a live service game, but so is ignoring it entirely when it affects core aspects like player agency. As for skill itself, it is more than mindgames and luck. Far more. Focusing on them while ignoring everything that leads to them (positioning, available resources, allies/multiple opponents, even just the distinction of micro vs macro play goes outside that limitation.) As killer, if your perspective on the other 3 survivors is mindgames and luck while only focusing on the one, you will lose a lot more than you win, which is ironically the main way to punish hard tunneling as the other 3 players. You can't be on all 4 at once, and the entire reason tunneling is so desirable is because it removes one player's potential from the match as fast as possible. Skill isn't even limited to the mechanical, as simple things like understanding proper routing can easily be the difference between reaching a resource and buying more time, as well as catching up to a survivor in that same scenario where you don't waste time around corners, through windows, or traversing the map in general. Its literally why mobility killers eat so good in the current meta, and is an element of skill that has plenty of agency by itself. And thats not even getting into more advanced aspects like killer specific interactions, just general interaction vs most of the cast with perks/items/addons/etc being modifiers in either direction on a given interaction.
I feel like the misunderstanding of skill as a concept, as well as the self imposed limits on it, are where the disagreement stems from. Considering the hyperbolic assumption that you need to avoid both the killer and the gens to avoid the possibility of tunneling (something that can only happen to 1 out of 4 players in a given match at any given time) it seems like the perspective might honestly be the main thing holding you back. If a killer tries tunneling you and you fare well and waste their time, they are forced to either detatch and find a better opportunity or overcommit and lose for it. Again, winning and losing aren't about the entity's endgame message and honestly this mentality is exactly why many people miss the old and busted emblem focus instead of the MMR one.
Thats… what competition
is. You are constantly at odds with an opponent, and need to continuously make decisions that elevate yourself into a more favorable position while lowering theirs when it conflicts with your own. Concepts like"mechanics that ensure the Killer will catch you eventually"are specifically designed due to the 1v4 nature of the game:Nobodyis supposed to be able to run the killer for 5 gens in a balanced matchup, much likenobodyis supposed to get 4K 5Gen games. The dynamic for the game just isn't built for those extremes, which is why they get pointed out as landslides that shouldn't be possible without the other side essentially allowing them to be.Oh yeah, I get all of that. I wasn't complaining that the game is designed for the Killer to catch you eventually. I just bring it up as the counterpoint to others' (particularly Killer mains') expectation that Survivors are supposed to loop the Killer all game when they're being tunneled when, by design, it's impossible. That's also why tunneling is so effective.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4039113#Comment_4039113
so now we have established what skill part is (decision making), which is in the players control… the fact myself and others dont have an issue with tunneling is because we make better decisions while people that struggle with tunneling make bad decisions. correct?
It's still luck because it's your decision vs. The Killer's, not to mention they only have to win once (or twice if you start healthy). So tunneling is already heavily skewed in the Killer's favor. Survivors winning one 50/50 at a loop only earns them maybe five more seconds. And then add in the game mechanics that ensure the Killer will catch you eventually, skews it even further in their favor. So all the Survivor skill in the world won't defend against tunneling for long.
And your own decision to hide all game to avoid being tunneled, there's no skill in that.