ChaosWam
ChaosWam
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3636259#Comment_3636259
That's how balance works.
They can't make gens slower anymore with the current slowdown perks we have. I know you will say then nerf those perks and make gens slower but then killer will have free perk slots which will be used chase perks or information perks or perks like Plaything.
So you need to be careful with slowdown , you simply can break the game. And i don't even need to mention high tier killers. If you balance game around weak killers, high level killers will be just broken.
Eyrie is not bad map for killers with good chase power. But you simply can't nerf this map anymore. Just look Borgo and how terrible it is right now for survivors. Removing loops is good for weak killers but weak killers are on the rare side. So that's means you will go to against Blight, Wesker, Nurse, Spirit, Chucky, Xeno etc most of the time. And those killers are already so strong with good powers. Nerfing maps is simply means breaking them.
So except few maps, i don't think maps needs so much changes. Size is also another issue. If you make them so small, Saloon for an example, it will make game unbalanced for other side. Saloon and Midwich have high kill rates for a reason. We can't make maps like those two.
GoJ needs another nerf, maybe Eyrie should be smaller but non of loops should be removed. Haddonfield should get full loop rework, nerf houses and buff street. But nerfing maps to Borgo level will just break the game. And they should never balance maps around m1 killers because they are not so popular and most of killers have powers. Instead of nerfing maps, they need to buff weak killers. So they can play around strong loops.
Balance is not easy but i just disagree with DbD is favoring survivors more. Because my exp is just opposite. Playing survivor is feeling like hell and when i play killer, i am always finding fun and chill matches.
My main gripes with Eerye of Crows is the lighting, alongside main building having the perfect bully SWF setup still. In first person, all that bright light on the walls and floor makes scratch marks even more hidden and really becomes blinding in some cases. And what I mean by jank tiles is something I'm sure survivors also see: Generation problems. This has been seen with weird 3 gens, tiles with no pallets and whatnot. More times than none on killer for me, I've seen multiple jungle gyms with windows facing each other so there's no real chasing them without bamboozle to cut one of them off.
In terms of intentional game design, there's a good handful of maps that have easy to do mid gens that result in a wide gap to patrol quickly with no real way to approach without the survivors getting to safe loops immediately. I actually think that's one thing Crows does right, with the mid gens having more high walls to consider before moving while other maps almost have no high walls for some of their mid gens.
We also have to consider how extremely good loops can nearly guarantee 2 gens pop quickly alongside kitted out toolboxes/perks against most of the killer roster. I have saved many soloQ games on survivor running commodius with two charge addons, stake out, hyperfocus, fogwise and built to last to do critical mid gens in the killers TR when there's a decent looper, or at least most of the gen if they decide to switch to me. Then all it takes is map knowledge of the best loops and how to counter the killer in question and if they're easy to counter. It got so monotonous for me that I now try harder builds and suffer more in SoloQ for it because of how fast I could do gens by myself compared to my teammates. It's only when I run into extreme slowdown that the gen build starts to suffer more.
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@mmyers58 said:
wow overpowered everybody is just teleporting and this annoying playstyle is OP + annoying this needs to be changed
This isn't about live Sadako. PTB Sadako couldn't spam nearly as well, and taking a tape had no downsides as they don't break on it or give you condemned in any way, just disables the TV for 70 seconds per interaction.
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I will always say SWF>Killer>SoloQ
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3636236#Comment_3636236
I mean what is broken on survivor side atm?
Medkits are nerfed, now they are ok with even irri addons.
I'd rework toolboxes but i don't think they are that much problem.
Flashlights are very easily countered.
Maps and keys are just exist i guess.
There is only few maps left which favors survivors hardly but most of maps are feels balanced.
FtP + BU combo is annoying but it confirmed to be changed.
SWF teams are just excuse for loses because most of times i am not seeing that good teammates, even after so much wins. Team Eternal level SWFs are rare. So SupaAlf level Nurses too. We should balance game around this level players? Which probably 5% of playerbase for best. Do you know how this will be bad for rest of players?
So i am curious what makes game unbalanced for killers.
I am really questioning myself sometimes if we are still playing 2020 DbD. Survivors were op but not anymore. Game is pretty much chill and easy for killers most times. You will get some challanger teams time to time for sure but even on those matches you can win if you play right.
So what makes game unbalanced for killers?
Mainly map sizes, jank tile layouts, and the reliance on slowdown. You could also make an argument for gen speeds and toolbox power, but even I see that as a coordinated SWF issue for the most part. If you decide to run a build with no slowdown, which most newer killers will be facing now that Surge is back on Demogorgon, unless they also run killers with decent movement gens will fly pretty quickly. And unfortunately, most slowdown is locked behind licenses or the very slow shrine. Meanwhile lots of good survivor perks are avaliable almost immediately with Dwight, Meg and Claudette. Less so Dwight these days, admittedly.
Maps like Eerie of Crows and Garden of Joy are both good examples of really bad maps that suffer from these problems of map size and tiles, with Eerie of crows having the addition of really terrible lighting.
And on that note, if you think about it the most annoying builds on killer for survivor I've seen involve a lot of slowdown. It's strange that something that is almost required for most killers is extremely oppressive on survivors. Even the upcoming DMS+GE is thought to be oppressive. It really feels like there's no decent in-between because most slowdown by itself is sometimes not enough. It's also why Nurse and Blight are so good, lots of fast map movement and, in Nurse's case, ignoring tiles.
I'm not going to say I know the perfect balancing ideas, but I'd hope most of us can see the issue that games can either mostly end in 4ks with strong slowdown and mostly 0-1ks with no slowdown. Thankfully, the changes to gens and having no gen taps/requires survivors to commit to fix a regressing gen may help, but it will require killer to be more active on the regressing gen in question.
Edit: Also I'd like to mention I want more interesting stuff for maps and keys too. Anything to help mitigate gen speeds and promote variety of gameplay so we can justify nerfing slowdown. I guess my answer to your question is, what is broken on killer that isn't slowdown or Nurse?
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@MechWarrior3 said:
thank you so so very much for taking the time to thoroughly read my post and write out your own personal ideas. 💕🙏🏼🙏🏼
I am glad that you liked what I proposed, and I also learned a thing or two from what you said as well.
I had no idea that distorted photo could do that, and I think that’s hilarious!
In regards to pinwheel and cloth, I believe you are right they may have to tone down the radius from 8 m to 6.5 if the television were off, but to be entirely honest 8 m really isn’t even that far. I think they’re going to tone it down then while they are powered on the rain should be increased to 9m.
I feel like I have more to say in this response as a whole so let me think about it and I will edit it probably.
Thank you so very much for listening and taking the time again to write all this out. You’re one of a kind :-)
Not gonna lie, I would love to add you on a 1v1 custom to see how you work distorted photo.
Of course, glad to help.
And on the note of Photograph, it helps that I also run bamboozle to make up for her weaker aspects. I also recommend Superior Anatomy if you're not keen on window blocks. If you get the aura read off, fake going one way so they turn back to run past the window again, you can crawl over it and catch them off guard. If they keep going one way, then you can commit to chase, and it works pretty well on most tiles that aren't shack, but I find shack runners tend to stick to shack too often and get fooled by the window juke.
The only real downsides are if they pick up on you and don't look, in which case you need to readjust to them not tracking your movements constantly and mindgame around that, or if they run distortion, in which case you need to burn through those stacks. Personally I enjoy the fact there's counterplay since I have a decent rhythm with manifest/demanifest in chase. The only worries I have with a 1v1 is I'd have to, at this point, mentally time my manifests where I've done this for so long it feels like second nature so if I try to think about my timings while doing it I guarantee I'd mess up 🙃But that's unfortunately how my brain works, loves to make things second nature as opposed to deliberate. I stream sometimes so maybe I'll create a clip later to show my results.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
Killrates are telling different story than yours. Game looks like pretty much killer-favored.
Killrate is kinda hiding the fact that most games are uncoordinated SoloQ and some SWF that don't do callouts. Broken things on either side can't be excused by killrate/escape rate if the numbers are skewed because of it. Heck, Sadako is getting nerfed from her PTB because of uncoordinated players not touching tapes. How is that logical when she has an easy and non-punishing counterplay in the PTB, but broken combinations of items and perks is A-OK because killrates?
SoloQ needs QoL absolutely, no doubt, but we can't have double standards on broken combinations.
Besides, do we really want to rely on one or two broken combinations, or do we want more balanced things across the board on both sides?
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Actually now that I think about it, it'd be the perfect excuse to adjust her movement animations.
Each stack increase could have her hunched over slightly more and more, as if she's more of the prowl the more haste stacks she receives. Both a visual indicator for survivors and more visually appealing for a hunter type killer.
Hindered should also be removed from her kit because I dislike her having both.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3635785#Comment_3635785
I updated my suggestions regarding our well baby’s addons. Will you take another look for me?
I forgot some important details. @radiantHero23 Will you check too? What am I missing?
Thanks for the heads up! Let me read through this and type in live time here.
- Tape Editing Deck: Passive condemned on this addon specifically is a bold step, and I endorse it because it's an active choice to run and could lead to experimenting with it alongside certain builds for slowdown and hindering survivors to gain condemned. I like it.
- 100% agreed with the VCR, don't even need to ask me twice. Always has been my favorite addon for mindgames.
- Telephone: I'm not a major fan of haste/hindered to be completely honest, but telephone has always been extremely weak for a purple addon regardless. I think your suggestion is a step in the right direction.
- Funnily enough, Photograph is my second most run addon. Why? I demanifest/manifest frequently during chases to do mindgames, and due to this I learned I can use it as a pseudo 'I'm All Ears' if I do it correctly at window mindgames or as they turn corners. It's difficult to learn when and how to time manifest for it, but it's very rewarding to see if they double back or hold W. That said, I do agree it could be tuned up and I like your suggestion. (Also fun fact you can interrupt actions with the scream, even unhooking if they look at you. The hate messages I've gotten...)
- Clump of Hair/Mother's Mirror/Newspaper basekit: I can't say for certain if this would be overkill or not as a lot of invis can be quite strong. However considering the circumstances with Sadako, I think it should at least be considered. I'll probably think this one over more but I'm not opposed to the thought.
- Pinwheel/Cloth: When I first played Sadako years ago I was going mad trying to figure out why these weren't effective. Now looking back, I was mostly suffering from 'new player in DBD' syndrome. Blindness doesn't do much for Sadako except counter WoO or other kinds of aura reading, so mainly SoloQ information and Pinwheel seems redundant since Sadako can demanifest, granted it hides her lullaby if you don't demanifest and they ignore the TV. The issue is, nobody will ignore the TV for those effects to linger (unless they also want tons of stacks) and the only combination I can see being useful is Iridescent Tape and Pinwheel, which I shouldn't even need to explain why that's a bad idea with this update. I could rant forever about them, but your suggestion to have them active when the TVs are off is good. May need to adjust range depending on effectiveness but that would need to be tested.
- Fishing Net: On paper it sounds great. 4 locks on stacks = permenant blindness. But as I said before, blindness on Sadako is a moot point if she can demanifest. Aura reading perks are already weak against her power. I agree with you on that fully. I have two suggestions for it: 1. Your suggestion with it being tied to condemned gain and 2. If they double down on hook lockon condemned being capped, have it raise the cap by 1 stack. (Even if gaining condemned will be harder to apply, at least it would be something I guess?)
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3635768#Comment_3635768
But the Ptb doesn't mean much. Peoe DC or kill themselves on hook just because it's a certain map or killer on the Ptb. Most killers that actually try to win will win.
They must know that.
As someone once told me:
"But the data says-"
Then again, if it's true that they have plans to add/remove things despite how well the PTB goes, it further confuses me as to why there's a PTB to test things on. Would we be as alarmed if those changes were in the PTB to begin with? We'd probably critique all the issues with them but we'd at least be aware of them beforehand.
All this just makes me wish we had a 2 week PTB period, on a seperate client that can be updated separately with changes, and they keep a close eye on both the data and player feedback. Not sure how you'd go around players goofing off to skew the stats, though.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3635840#Comment_3635840
I am not sure who this rework is for because even @radiantHero23 does not like rework. I don't think dev understand what he was asking for his request and I can only interrupt his posts from discussions i have had with him.
He had 3 major complaints about Current Sadako which boils down to singular global complaint. His global complaint is that Sadako is too focused on macro play[Condemn] and does not reward killer for micro play. What are these micro plays that I am referencing?
1) He does not like that Sadako has no good chase power. Part of his request was that he wanted Sadako to have a better chasing ability(He was upset that Rekiro watch got nerfed). He wanted her micro chase play to be buffed. So he is complained that her chase micro play is not good.
2) His second complaint was that all of Sadako's good add-on revolved around Condemn build-up. He wanted add-on rework on some of her worse add-on. In particular, he wanted Sadako to be a better stealth killer. He doesn't like lullaby. He is complaining about her micro stealth gameplay.
3) His 3rd final complaint is a bit complicated. It was difficult for me to understand it but his essential complaint is that survivor at live take tapes out of televisions which turn TV off. He doesn't like that survivors are taking takes out of televisions which limit her mobility. As secondary, he dislike teleportation cooldown. This complaint is regarding Micro TV gameplay.
Did the dev deliver his requests?
The answer is they delivered two minor requests. They increased base invis from 1.0 to 1.2 and they removed TV cooldown. for delivering these two buffs, they nerfed everything else. So now killer is extremely weak like freddy tier-weak where killer is complete m1 with TV teleport instead of gen teleport.
Now you just need wait for mid-chapter changes. I made post here: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/403099/sadako-suggested-changes-my-version-of-onryo#latest talking about what I would change to merge New Sadako with Old Sadako. The post got buried. the number in the post was experimental with possible subject to change.
I have not always seen eye to eye with most other Onryo mains, considering I can defend certain aspects of current live Sadako (but hate other aspects like slug condemned) but it makes me happy there's enough people who genuinely support her being in a good spot. I was extremely happy most of us and survivors liked the PTB Sadako, after a looooooooooong time of hearing how boring current Sadako is and how weak old Sadako was.
These upcoming changes are terrible, and I agree with radiantHero23 on these points as well as many other Sadako players who have expressed their concerns. And it's not like I want Sadako to be oppressive to survivors either, I really liked going against her in the PTB too. But there definitely needs to be a carrot/stick tradeoff that makes sense in a 1v4 scenario and throwing in unneeded nerfs to her kit specifically over aspects of the game that's specific to the game like tunneling or condemned spam that can be countered by taking a tape that is no longer a downside to grab seems like too much stick and not enough carrot. Especially with Iridescent Tape, the carrot gets replaced with a plastic one.
And honestly that analogy goes for however you'd balance her. If you take away more of her condemned pressure, you need something to compensate that makes sense. Goes for any killer really.
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Had they done something to make tapes less appealing to grab to compensate for the cooldown, I'd consider it a fair tradeoff. Heck, I may have even let it go if it was just the hook-condemned cap even though I think that's pointless to do. Doing both that and the cap on hook-lock with no other buffs is dirty.
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I think I may also be going insane because I'm experiencing some weird MMR things as well.
Now I can't say for sure on survivor side because even I'll admit I'm a mid survivor, but when my killer mains experience these kinds of survivors and the killers I barely touch get godlike loopers who know every tile combination like the back of their hand and have 2-3x my hours played, something feels weird.
I had to double check and yes, killers have seperate MMR but it's raised based on your best killer's MMR. So why is it I get really terrible/inexperienced survivors on my mains but not on killers I'm also inexperienced with, or at least mid ranged survivors?
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I have a strange feeling MMR may have some hiccups occasionally, or something with matchmaking.
The past few months I've been winning 8/10 matches with my mains Sadako and Deathslinger with quite a few wins as well with other killers like SM, Singularity and Pyramid Head. I swapped to some of the killers I rarely touch like Freddy, Trapper and Huntress and I noticed something very strange. Keep in mind I have 1800 hours.
On my mains, I get a lot of survivors throwing, not knowing mechanics of even deathslinger, low hours and not very good at loops to the point where I sometimes give hatch out of sympathy. On the killers I barely touch, I'm getting survivors with double and triple my hours and know every counterplay to whatever build I decide to run.
I understand MMR between killers is different to an extent, your highest killer MMR is soft-shared with the others, but it doesn't explain why on my mains I get matched with newer or clearly lower MMR survivors compared to killers I don't often touch.
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Against a SWF? I'm mixed on it. A good SWF can deny hooks a lot and negate 3/4 perks for a long time.
Against uncoordinated SoloQ? Yeah they're not going to survive very well.
I think it should just prioritize activating GE until that perk is exhausted, then DMS can be activated after hook or at second hook of anyone who was already hooked and activated the first part of GE. Oh and also make the scream from UW not interrupt gen repair.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3635693#Comment_3635693
i think their logic was not explained correctly. what the post is trying to say is that lock on stack system encourage player to tunnel because every time you get new lock on stacks, your encouraged to lock in the new lock on stacks. for example, if someone has 4 condemn stacks and you tp back to the hook, now the player has 5 condemn stacks +1 stack to lock in. Suppose they go into another TV spot, you TP, now they have 6 stacks. Now you 2 more stacks to lock-in. 4+2. Once they get unhooked, same process occurs, you tp again, your incline to lock-in new stacks and so on.
the condemn system is suppose encourage to spread pressure then after enough condemn has been spread, then the killer can decided spot 1 player that is weak link and choose to focus/tunnel that player. The new Sadako doesn't encourage spreading pressure in her gameplay at all. there is no ring drawing to do so.
That logic is only worse if Sadakos know that they have more than 2 stacks off hook with the new system. It would become more of a problem since with the addition of the condemned cooldown, targeting the highest stack survivor becomes a major focus to condemn and get out of the match ASAP if they're ignoring the tapes.
And tunneling them off hook with the locked in 2 stacks + whatever else they may have makes it more of a bonus instead of spreading more condemned to the other survivors for late game pressure due to time. Really I'm starting to question lock-in stacks entirely if either case is as oppressive as the devs claim, because I see condemned cooldown a far worse problem in the long run since it cuts down Sadako's slowdown. If anything, both of them together really discourage spreading pressure to more than 2 survivors. Especially with how easy it is to shut down the condemned spam without the cooldown in the first place.
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@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3635808#Comment_3635808
I wouldnt say that, main reason why id because her way of spreading condemn is still way faster thanks to the lower cooldowns for the TVs themselves
Except it really isn't if survivors grab tapes. The only viable way to do it with these changes are to corral them to TVs that haven't been turned off, IF survivors choose to use those loops in the first place. And even if you get a lot of stacks, only 2 are saved perk hook and the rest can be cleansed if you leave them alone off hook and go for someone else.
The only way survivors would gain condemned is if they ignore the TVs every 10 second condemned stack, which is probably extremely viable and they can just rush the gens and then cleanse.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3634889#Comment_3634889
Thank you for doing this. 🙏🏼💕 truly!
I put a lot of thought into this after 2000 hours of playing our beloved TV girl.
I have great suggestions behavior please! 🙏🏼 Please take a look at the addons again. Out of all the purple addons only 1 of them is worth using…kinda…sorta with this update. (Tape editing deck) the others are lack luster for purples.
ADD-ON SUGGESTIONS ❤️
Tape editing deck - Bring passive condemn back on this addon to give survivors a reason to turn the tape in. (bringing back tapes that passively condemn would be a great idea, it was a great idea to begin with.)
VCR - there should be similar animation like Freddy’s animation where Sadako is coming out of the TV so survivors think it’s her. It’s just an audio queue now and a small visual effect. Also, with survivors being able to see auras of televisions of any TV, this add-on will remain and effective because they know exactly which she’s coming out of so there’s no tricking anybody with this add-on.
Telephone - this should be increased to 8.5 meters and from 3 seconds to 3.5.. The current range is so short, you could just lunge attack and hit someone. The slowdown is enough to help you get the next hit or hinder them enough around the loop to potentially get ahead.
Distorted Photo - this could be useful if it was increased to 18 or 20 meters but the biggest issue is a survivor has to witness her manifesting which is frustrating because you have to count on survivors hearing her lullaby as a stealth killer to know you’re around, the two don’t go together.
Clump of hair should be basekit. (This would help her stealth due to her lullaby and because her invisibility is the same, as it is manifested, as it is de manifested, it should be harder to see her de manifested.)
Mother’s mirror OR Newspaper should be basekit. (To help her a little in loops)
Rickety Pinwheel/Seasoaked Cloth - Very neat idea! However, she gets punished hard for using these add-ons, because when she teleport it shut the TVs off, and the add-on is useless. I would suggest merging the two add-ons together or making it so the add-on stays on whether the TV is powered on or off. (You may have to make a different visual effect for this though from the static that usually surrounds the television)📺
Iri video tape - (Bring back OG video tape)
As someone who loves the VCR, I kinda dig those additions as well. I use it as a scare tactic post-hook with DMS because I find most survivors don't want to risk staying on a gen if they hear the teleport sound too close. Not to mention if they have LoS on a TV and see the fake me crawl out.
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@Orthane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/403512/whats-the-point-of-ptb-feedback
Well you see she's not Blight or Nurse so she's not allowed to be even remotely strong.
Better buff Adrenaline vial though, can't have Blight falling below S tier.
The worst theory I've heard makes it make too much sense with that:
Sadako got x amount of moris in PTB compared to live, it was too similar so condemned got nerfed (despite it being a stress test and people adjusting to the changes, which I noticed near the end of PTB with them taking tapes ASAP.)
While Blight's addon changes maybe shifted him slightly down in power, despite the obvious flaws and clear power they still have so just adjust those slightly and call it a day. I mean, a killer who is doing slightly worse and considered a strong killer it MUST mean the data will trend correctly!
Meanwhile Billy is Billy but with a cooler chainsaw, which we should all love and support. Seriously, Billy deserved his buffs, no jokes or sarcasm.
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While I agree that devs have the right to change things based on their data and information, even I have to question why we have the PTB.
Public Tests are meant to stress test changes. That's been something with most games that use them. It's starting to feel like BHVR either looks at the least consequential problems and creates issues for the long run by adding/removing things people didn't have problems with while overlooking things they have found to be a problem.
I've said it a lot already but PTB needs to be a separate client with full access to the killers/survivors/perks being adjusted/added during a set time frame so tests can be more accurate. You also have to take into account how many people goof off in PTB and how inaccurate that makes the data.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3635676#Comment_3635676
If you have to bloodlust 3 them to "eventually catch up" it is effectively an infinite. Because by the time you catch them, you lost the game. Yeah its not a "true infinite" but its "infinite enough" such that you lost the game.
I have never seen bloodlust tier 3 outside a good looper at those windows, I can confirm that. I could probably count on my fingers how many times I've seen BL2 outside Haddonfield as well, so I consider myself decent at chase.
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The problem now, with the changes coming up, is tapes have no downside to take at all. They no longer break on hit and don't give you condemned or passive condemned.
In the PTB they added the ability to lock-in condemned on hook, all active TVs apply condemned on teleport and show their aura within 16m to the survivor, and no cooldown on her power. She was still only able to traverse active TVs so taking a tape is a strong counter to the changes since a survivor deactivating a TV turns it off for 70 seconds. It also only takes 1 second to take/deposit tapes, much faster than before plus the removal of tape breaking and gaining condemned on hit, and you don't even gain condemned holding the tape like old Sadako. In PTB, it felt fair and balanced compared to live and very few had issues with it, with most people I saw liking the changes on both survivor and killer.
Then BHVR with the patch coming soon added a hard cap to condemned hooking to 2 stacks per hook on the grounds of 'tunneling' when in reality, now you need to tunnel to keep them from cleansing any additional stacks they may have above the 2 when they were hooked since that isn't cleansed on hook. Additionally, a 10 second cooldown to teleporting spreading condemned, despite the fact that when taking a tape it deactivates the TV for 70s and the 16m radius around it for the condemned per teleport already (alongside the obvious upside of keeping her from teleporting to that TV), with NO downside to taking in the first place on the grounds of 'spamming' despite TVs turning off after a teleport for 45 seconds, so if anyone is gaining stacks from teleport spam it's those who aren't taking the 2-3 seconds to grab a tape from whatever generator they are on, coincidentally the time it roughly takes for Sadako to crawl out of a TV, demanifest and teleport again.
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@blackmoonrealex said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/403444/dev-update-feedback
I said this before and I’ll say it again - condemned needs to go.
Sadako has map mobility and stealth, but she’s terrible during chases. Condemned wasn’t really all that strong, and now that it’s been nerfed, it’s really useless. Who cares about locking in condemned? There’s not going to be any time or justification to use it as a means to get kills.
She needs something that will help her along throughout the match. Stacking condemned doesn’t match the lore anyway. Sadako is the only killer with a status effect that does nothing unless she downs a survivor after meeting a demanding criteria.
Absolutely not.
Condemned isn't the issue. The way I see it, half of the problem is BHVR is too scared to make condemned a decent passive threat, and the other half is survivors who refuse to touch tapes out of either ignorance (just not knowing, not a negative way) about how they function or trying to greed generators. More killer power information accessible in-game would be beneficial for the lack of knowledge.
Even if you remove condemned, the suggestions for Sadako are honestly busted in return that I've seen:
- Sadako with remote-pallet breaking. It would make a lot of loops into complete death traps. Front desk of RPD comes to mind, heck most of RPD would be a death trap.
- Sadako could demanifest-walk through pallets and walls. Aside her lullaby giving her away so walls wouldn't be a real scare tactic, demanifest through pallets would also be a horrible idea outside any small loop. Besides, the counterplay would just be to greed a pallet without even looping until she demanifests or breaks the pallet and create a stalemate.
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I wonder how that will work with Dredge's nightfall or Singularity's biopod viewing.
That said, ghostface may just be perfect for this.
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Weird thing is, uncapped hook condemned lock did inspire more hooking as opposed to tunneling. If anything, now you have to tunnel to keep those stacks up and not risk survivors lowering it back down to 2, especially with how easy it is to do tapes since they have no downside now.
And I agree, tunneling is a symptom of the game itself, be it killers who feel too weak to attempt to spread hook pressure, killers with powers blatantly too powerful for tunneling, and reworks like this one making most feel as if it's the best approach to being nerfed.
Edit: I forgot to mention those who will absolutely tunnel no matter if it's smart or not to do just because they can/want to, in which case no change is going to stop them.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3634938#Comment_3634938
Until i see these adjustments, im not getting my hopes up. Im tired of getting disappointed.
If it's any consolation, despite our balance philosophies before, if this debacle has revealed anything it's shown how dedicated we all are about the killer we main. I salute you all for at least getting BHVR to notice their mistake, even if they decide to double down on it later or not.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3635197#Comment_3635197
taking a tape is basic counter-play but rework dumb down the tapes the gameplay so much so that the gameplay for survivor is too easy for experienced survivors. The weaker survivor player won't use tapes effectively thus still dying to condemn mechanic. Having a noob-stomp mechanic that does nothing for high-level but obliterates the casual beginner survivor team is unhealthy.
Sadako is an M1 killer
it is not about being an m1 killer. it is about how applying condemn is skill-less mechanic now that is automated. Being good as Condemn Sadako is same as being Day 1 Sadako. The gameplay depth of the character is gone.
Dying to condemned is 100% on the survivor if they ignore the tapes.
It isn't a matter of 'low tier' and 'high tier' when the counter is grabbing a tape at bare minimum. At best, survivors shouldn't fall for it more than a few times until they understand how it works. If survivors fail to grasp that for so long, it's on BHVR for not giving enough information. Heck, it's less 'automated' now that it isn't global.
Condemned is meant to be her threat and slowdown. That's like asking to remove Pyramid Head's mechanics because of the mori. Or trapper's traps because new players keep stepping in them. Or more accurately, Pig's headtraps because low skill survivors die to the trap. We can't cater to the majority of a bad playerbase or else basic mid tier matches are going to suffer hard.
And once again I ask, how is nerfing her helping with anything you want to begin with? She wasn't given a chase power, her tapes weren't given downsides, and condemned spread is even worse with the same, as you put 'skilless' mechanic.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3635182#Comment_3635182
why did you say the changes were necessary when it seems your gripe is how strong tapes and taking them are when they also didn't get changed at all with this upcoming update?
I already answered my problem with rework. This was my answer:
I dislike entire Onryo rework because there is no substance gameplay left on either side. The killer has no skill expression in applying condemn/manipulating condemn to be more effective and survivor has no skill expression in deleting the ability. The killer is spoon fed condemn stacks for existing and survivor is spoon fed the counter-play.
Condemn cooldown just prevents mechanic from stomping weaker survivors.
And again, we shouldn't base massive changes on survivors who refuse to interact with the counter mechanics. They are not a good representation of balancing a power.
The entire rework primary goal is to allow survivors that play poorly to win.
I honestly can't take this seriously anymore when "Condemn cooldown just prevents mechanic from stomping weaker survivors." and "The entire rework primary goal is to allow survivors that play poorly to win." is in the same argument. I can't explain again how taking a tape isn't something strong survivors do, it's the basic counterplay.
Skill expression arguments are fine, Sadako is an M1 killer and suffers the same skill ceiling as other M1 killers with a twist on her manifest intermittent invisibility, timing anti-stun demanifests and mentally checking condemned and TVs. Her core is still an M1 killer. But I cannot justify nerfs to something that has a built in counterplay to them that's extremely simple to do. Walk to a TV and take a tape. Can be done between teleports. Tape exchanges are quick and easy and you just have to mindgame an M1 killer.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3635162#Comment_3635162
In the PTB you could get decent stacks and buy yourself time since survivors had to respect it and exchange tapes, or prevent it by taking tapes early to protect their gens.
not my experience. i wasn't able to get any condemn kills vs good survivors. I had scottjund experience which was that when you face a good team, you get no condemn kills. the tape counter is too strong. That is why the changes are confusing because they nerfed a killer that already sucked.
If you play public ptb which typical features weaker survivor players, then you will stomp lobby by spamming TV teleport's. that is why they added condemn cooldown. What was newbie stomp mechanic in the ptb is now a mechanic that does absolutely nothing now.
Then I ask again, why did you say the changes were necessary when it seems your gripe is how strong tapes and taking them are when they also didn't get changed at all with this upcoming update?
My experience in PTB was very different. Thanks to uncapped hook condemned, I was able to use it as a pressure tool when teleporting mid chases and mentally checking when TVs would turn back on to apply more condemned. Especially as survivors wandered the map and get struck by it every teleport until I find their target TV and get 3-4 stacks locked onto someone for choosing correctly. It was a very great mid to late game tool.
And honestly, I take Scott's input with a grain of salt considering he more than likely didn't play a lot of Sadako before. Even his recent video he admits to as much and 'started to get into it' during the PTB. I also highly disagree with his take on condemned having a timer being good, it just incentivizes ignoring condemned even more.
Edit: And again, we shouldn't base massive changes on survivors who refuse to interact with the counter mechanics. They are not a good representation of balancing a power.
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Something like this would have worked very well if it was adopted early in the game's life.
At this point, would it mesh well with content releases? Possibly. Getting hyped for a new 'team aura' perk could be possible.
The one issue I can see is to balance it all out correctly. A lot of perks would need major buffs/changes to compensate for the restriction of only being able to bring one of each type.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3635067#Comment_3635067
The tapes weren't touched at all and Sadako was effectively nerfed
The tapes did change. previously in old iteration, you had a passive that gave you 1 condemn stack every 30 seconds when holding a tape. In current iteration, this passive was removed and traded for different passive where you gain 2 stacks of condemn when sadako successfully basic attacks a survivor when carrying a tape.
What does this version of Sadako have in relationship to carrying a tape?
Nothing. They straight up removed the passive with no positive. The tapes did change, they changed positive for survivor with no upside for killer.
heck I'd even argue with the hook condemned cap and condemned having a cooldown, tapes were massively buffed since you don't need to grab them as often.
they restrict her mobility. the loss of condemn is more insult to injury. Icing on the cake. the passive already lost all threat value. nobody at good-level survivor was going get mori'd before death hook in ptb version.
My entire argument on this topic comes from PTB Sadako to upcoming release Sadako. Tapes were not changed between PTB and this upcoming release notes.
Your entire argument is based on you saying the changes coming are good for Sadako:
No cooldown teleportation promoted spamming teleport mindlessly with no decision making or thought process. The lock condemn stack promoted tunneling survivor off-hook and slugging people next to TV's to finish the 7 stacks of condemn on the "Locked Condemn" survivor.
These were grossly problematic designs in PTB Sadako. All the change are justified.
How can you defend the hook lock and condemned cooldown when with this update, tapes have no downsides to taking, you can see TV auras within 16m, and tapes can be inserted in 1 second in front of her? Condemned was easily countered by taking a tape and denying that TV and it's 16m range, that was entirely my point with this. In the PTB you could get decent stacks and buy yourself time since survivors had to respect it and exchange tapes, or prevent it by taking tapes early to protect their gens. I mean even the tunneling condemned thing has been debunked by a lot of players at this point.
Honestly you're starting to confuse me on what your stance is here.
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@Caiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3634979#Comment_3634979
I had the same idea. When I saw her perks had a mix of human-hunting and business themes in their descriptions, I thought her character (who is called the SKULL MERCHANT) was going to be a high-tech arms dealer who tested/demonstrated her products on real people, getting rich off of selling weapons technology and indulging her own sadism at the same time.
Instead it was...manga.
I still don't even know why she's called the Skull Merchant.
I do because I read her bio a few times.
I still mentally reject it.
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Very well said.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3635010#Comment_3635010
I think a strong counterplay balances a strong power this way.
So you support an item like that deletes most your ability entirely? That is like saying Singularity Emps and Turrets are good design. Survivors making right play every single time should not render your ability completely ineffective. The tapes are suppose to be a tool to mitigate effectiveness of curse. The current version upcoming version of sadako deletes curse entirely. There is nothing the killer can do to gain advantages from tapes. The tapes only hurt sadako and contribute nothing towards her success in the base-kit. Only ring drawing does anything towards the tapes, it gives messily 1 stack for hooking someone. Even coming from lore perspective, this version of Onryo makes no sense. your holding a cursed object and cursed object is like help you?
The current tapes are no better then singlurarity EMP's. free counter with no downside.
Singularity EMPs and Turrets are a completely different debate. Singularity and Xenomorph cannot mori you regardless of hook state.
What makes Sadako different is her threat is tied to the condemned. And why are we suddenly shifting to tape effectiveness when the topic was the controversial changes made in the update? The tapes weren't touched at all and Sadako was effectively nerfed, heck I'd even argue with the hook condemned cap and condemned having a cooldown, tapes were massively buffed since you don't need to grab them as often.
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Man I heard people say there would be complaints about proxy camping and patrolling nearby hooks after the anti-facecamp was made but I thought it would be silly.
Guess I was proven wrong.
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Even a compendium with rundowns of all killers, powers, addons and the sort would be extremely nice.
I've played this game for a few years now and I still get surprised by some addons I've never come across on killers I go against/haven't touched.
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@jonifire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3635010#Comment_3635010
I really liked; that cursed tapes gave passive condemned, that made them something bad and not just sth positive. In the last rework that negative and positive effect in my opinion was pushed too far. Either you condemned people by hitting them and distroying the tapes or you got no TVs available and no slowdown.
While I'm okay with current Sadako's tapes having the nullifying properties for mapwide condemned and receiving stacks on hit, even I'll agree it could be better adjusted. Both current and old Sadako had a drawback to holding tapes, and even with old Sadako at least it was nice to have that while stacking condemned wasn't as reliable without (ironically) tunneling someone into TVs.
These changes though, if a survivor ever reaches max condemned it's honestly just their own fault at that point. Sadako will be lucky to see condemned stacks go beyond 3 or 4 against teams who touch tapes without using Ring Drawing if these changes go through, effectively killing her passive slowdown in the long run. If tapes had the passive condemned, I'd still feel wary about it but at least it would be something to better balance the condemned cooldown.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3634984#Comment_3634984
i am not disagreeing with tape argument. I am saying that if you entirely ignore televisions, you get condemn stacks for almost doing nothing other then pressing TV teleport button. When survivor counters you, you have no ability. Condemn mechanic is nothing more then noob-stomping ability now. Average survivor to master-level survivor will never get Condemned. The mechanic only function vs new players that are like 0-500 hours that entirely disregard tapes and televisions as a concept.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3634902#Comment_3634902
sign of relief. At the same time, I do not see them being able to improve this killer in few changes. Onryo is garbage now.
That's completely on the survivors at that point though. That's like saying 'This boss has a mechanic that kills me if I don't stand on this pillar. But I don't want to stand on this pillar, even if it takes 2 seconds to do it. Therefore, I shouldn't stand on this pillar' then dying and wondering why you died.
If 4 survivors are split, Sadako is likely to see one of them and give chase. It still gives everyone time to grab tapes regardless if she chooses to take that chase or not anyway. If all 4 survivors are on the same gen, it only takes one of them to grab that tape to save the rest from gaining condemned. I think a strong counterplay balances a strong power this way.
I started playing this game when Sadako came out. It took me less than half an hour to realize what tapes and teleportation does.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3634734#Comment_3634734
it is not non-sense. with 7 televisions, you incentives to teleport every single chance you get regardless of whether you hit the survivor with condemn or not. there is simply no drawback to not doing that. By teleportation to all 7 TV's, you emulate old condemn effect of applying 0.75 condemn stack to the entire map. Now it is just 1 condemn stack on the entire map. if you hit, you build condemn. If you don't hit, just teleport to another location. There is no bad teleport. The 10 second cooldown is there to discourage mindless teleportation.
In order for survivor to counter massive teleportation spam, survivor are incentives to always grab a tape or deposit tape to turn off every single television on the map near a gen that is being worked on. TV's spawn next to generators so you can grab a tape, work on a gen then go to another gen and turn off television. you can do gen objective and tv objective in such a way that there is no game-delay. only positive benefits in deleting her entire passive and her teleportation capacities. there is no decision making or skill input from survivor end with new tapes. you see a turned on TV near a generator, you turn it off. You have a tape? Go to your television and turn it off. It is just free counter to her ability with no downsides. it might be worse Singularity EMP'S.
I dislike entire Onryo rework because there is no substance gameplay left on either side. The killer has no skill expression in applying condemn/manipulating condemn to be more effective and survivor has no skill expression in deleting the ability. The killer is spoon fed condemn stacks for existing and survivor is spoon fed the counter-play. I was heartbroken by her rework and decided to not give any further feedback beyond what I am writing here. All I can hope now for her revert to be downright failure and hope that she is reverted.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3634744#Comment_3634744
Developer post explains their reasoning for lock-on stack change.
With your current Condemned progress becoming permanent when you were hooked, Survivors who were hooked with several stacks became a clear target for The Onryō; it would only take a few more stacks of Condemned to secure a quick and early kill. This indirectly encouraged the Killer to seek out and chase the same Survivor after they were unhooked (or “tunnelling” for short).
To tone this down, hooking a Survivor will now lock in a maximum of 2 stacks of Condemned. Any additional Condemned will remain but can be removed by the Survivor as normal. This can happen again when the Survivor is hooked for a second time for a maximum of 4 locked-in stacks.
This will give Survivors an opportunity to remove some of their Condemned after they are unhooked while keeping Condemned kills as a far more prominent threat later in the match.
The short answer is that they want condemn to be a late-game threat when it doesn't matter. It is like they forget that Pyramid Head exists... who also has a name called Executioner who gets mori's for just applying torment debuff on death hook. Sadako now has identity crisis where a Pyramid head does what she does but better.
You completely overlook the fact that you can grab a tape by the time Sadako teleports a second time, in most cases. The TV is even highlighted for you. That TV is also off for 70 seconds.
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At first, thought it was a half-cyborg killer and once the trailer dropped my brain must have swapped to coping mode and thought 'Oh so a black market arms dealer murderer kinda situation?'
I wasn't prepared for dark manga...
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@Shuma said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3634697#Comment_3634697
I don’t understand the reasoning. Deadline and Boon:Illumination are horrifically bad and
Champion of Light is problematic because of the hinder status. If it has any noticable affect, it will be unfun for killers and be nerfed or it won’t have any affect and be worthless to survivors. (Think Boil Over).
I can already see it getting a nerf because of the hinder, considering now kicking a pallet against a flashlight user is a hindrance (hah) against this perk without lightborn.
Deadline and Illumination deserves better. Even if I think Deadline is the coolest perk for my masochism.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3634918#Comment_3634918
I don't know. Anytime we get new perk somehow makes survivor off the gen, DMS is stacking and creating issue.
Even it's very bad, we have counter with PR. We are leaving gen until the survivor being hooked. But other perks removed all counters.
What you can do against UW? It will make all survivors scream and gens blocked. Now killer will chase one of them and other survivors can't do gens because they blocked.
And the sad part, this perk almost does nothing for weak killers but on killers like Wesker, Blight, Nurse... Yeah, it's not fun for sure
At the very least, if UW removes the ability to make screams interrupt actions, the counterplay would be to split more on gens instead of focusing just one. Plus, you'd know pretty fast if the killer has UW.
I use DMS a lot in my VCR/DMS Sadako as a mindgame tool. By itself, it's not a huge problem if the killer has a weak chase power. Problem is in fact the synergies with other perks that pop up now and again. I think a better approach is to quell the harsher synergies.
That's even if DMS and GE are as oppressive in live as we all think. I remember making a post in the PTB about it when I came across it and most just kinda waved it off as a novelty because blocking a gen =/= regressing it, plus it only would work 4 times a match and be overshadowed by a 4 stack of GE and then rely on itself the rest of the game, and even if the killer runs PR that's out of tokens by the time GE gets it's full effect.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
Some good news:
Issue I see is, these are 'follow up adjustments' to things that truly aren't an issue in the first place if survivors just grab tapes? You know, her easy to accomplish counterplay with no current downside?
At this rate I just very well might main Nurse instead.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3634516#Comment_3634516
I agree with you.
And they also made Adrenaline Vial busted again.
They honestly need to just rework DMS. This perk is creating a lot issues.
Stacking with PR, issue.
Stacking with UW, issue.
Stacking with Friends Until End, issue.
Now Stacking with Grim Embrace, issue.
A rework of DMS seems overkill in my own opinion. Gen block is a pretty great tradeoff to buy some time without totally regressing generators.
I think the best idea is to make screams from UW not interrupt your actions. As for PR, I'm not entirely sure what to do since the explosion on the gen is what kicks you off and not DMS, and it has 4 tokens. Not to mention it only effects the gen with the most time, the other gens can still be finished if they were worked on.
Grim Embrace is an easy fix, just have GE be the priority block and negate any further block timers unless the survivors tap the gen to activate the last 10 or so seconds of DMS.
As for Friends Till' The End, probably the same idea behind UW.
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@Peanits said:
Hey folks. It’s clear that the changes we’re making to The Onryo didn’t live up to expectations, so we’re preparing a series of follow-up adjustments to address the feedback we’ve received. These adjustments are planned to release as part of the minor updates in the weeks following the Mid-Chapter. We’ll share more details once we've got a plan locked in.
While nice to hear, I think most of us are already losing our faith in whatever changes are planned. I can't recall a time when a majority of dedicated players of a specific killer came together to praise a change, and now come together to feel betrayed by these nerfs.
I think it's fair to say we're grateful we're being heard but we already thought we were heard in the PTB.
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@Skitten56 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3634833#Comment_3634833
I would be perfectly fine with a cooldown for condemn to make it less oppressive. BUT if they do that, they need to make it so the condemn counterplay doesn't negatively affect her mobility so much. She already has TV cooldown times and survivors being able to shutdown TVs risk free to avoid condemn and mobility is too much.
They should make it so TVs turned off by survivors are off for a shorter period of time than they are now. The counterplay is so easy atm and survivors will just constantly turn TVs off as a result for basically no risk. Onryo needs this duration change to allow her to have some counterplay to the strong counterplay.
Exactly what they could have done with live Sadako. Add that condemned cooldown and remove the teleport cooldown.
Honestly at this point I think tapes just need to be removed. Clearly survivors don't want to touch them anyway. This whole situation boggles my mind.
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I don't agree with Scott on many things but MAN is this spot on with the hook lockon. For his take on condemned spam... Again, grab a tape and spam means nothing.
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@jonifire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3634794#Comment_3634794
I also hoped we return to her old version completely with some Buffs. Then they decided to do a good middle ground and now we got another useless killer. They should either give us her first version back or the PTB version, but nothing useless!!!
Heck if they had the ability to throw on a cooldown for condemned, current Sadako would be less oppressive while correctly adjusted for mapwide without gutting her movement.
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Weirdly enough I reported on the DMS/Grim Embrace combo and everyone told me it was inconsequential. Was I shocked to see it become a problem now.
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Highly agreed honestly.
If they aren't going to address tunneling in a fair way, then make it beneficial for survivors to be the target for a long period of time, at least to safety pip so killers don't have that incentive.
Especially since they can't get some of their killer reworks right...
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Honestly I straight up can't understand the condemned cooldown with PTB Sadako at all. It would make more sense with live Sadako.
If it were just limiting how many stacks are locked on after hook, a nerf but fine, whatever. But adding the cooldown alongside it? Condemned will no longer be a threat because of how easy it is to counter it since tapes have no real downside to taking now.
At this point I'd rather them leave her the way she was in PTB, monitor it over a few weeks and adjust from there. Or just apply the condemned cooldown to current live Sadako. It's honestly a slap to the face for dedicated Sadako mains.
Meanwhile Blight still has infinite rushes. Truly the stats don't lie.
The only saving grace is Billy this patch.