blackmoonrealex
blackmoonrealex
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4036908#Comment_4036908
Survivor players having their feedback heard but not killers and the action of the devs shows it.
The fact that the devs cancelled the tunnel/slug reduction twice shows otherwise. The Survivor buffs from 2+ years ago would be obsolete by today's standards.
The 9.2 tunnel/slug reduction would have put the game in a much healthier state eventually. Yes, adjustments were needed, but it could have been made fairer for everyone if we (devs, Killers, and Survivors alike) had given it time to work with and work out the kinks rather than just shutting it down. Now we're all still stuck in the same boat, Survivors being frustrated with tunneling while Killers allegedly "need to" tunnel. We all know gen speeds are not the reason Killers tunnel, and that was just proven in one of my matches this morning when I got tunneled out by a Legion who ran all gen slowdown plus Legion pin. Why did he need to tunnel when he already had all the slowdown?
This is why tunneling needs to be disincentivized sooner rather than later.
These are very, very good points. It all comes down to playability vs observing. Killers will always see the end of the match, survivors may not. That survivor that got tunneled didn’t get much of a chance to play. He/she observed a few minutes of a match instead.
So why am I playing a game that I can’t play? Killers are thinking that survivors are one collective entity when they aren’t, because that tunneled survivor could care less if the rest of their team escaped. They simply just wanted to play. But, the tunneling option is available to Killers so, why not? Regardless of how great their perk set-up is, they still get this benefit. Design flaw, or overpowered tactic?The community and the devs need to take a good look at this and realize that a game needs to be functional, playable, and actual fun. DBD is none of these things currently.
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@Skeleton23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030505#Comment_4030505
Yes there's is a counter to Tunneling. If you Learn how to Loop properly then Tunneling will be much harder for the killer. I always have trouble with good looping survivors. Its the best counter. So Tunneling is just a skill issue with you guys refusing to learn how to loop and engage with it.
Once you master looping Killers. Then Tunneling isn't a issue because they only tunnel the less skilled Survivors when they tunnel. Thats why it seems strong
Maybe in a perfectly vacuum scenario you would be able to get away from the killer after you’re unhooked while the killer is right on top of you. But, 99% of the time you’re out in the open and there’s no viable pallet to run to in time; not to mention you’re already injured.
Tunneling is used so much because it’s an overpowered tactic, and players will always do whatever it takes to be overpowered. It’s a design flaw.
It’s exactly like PVP in Dark Souls 1. Everyone sees it as a complete joke. Backstabbing and parrying are amusingly broken, overpowered tactics. So, obviously that’s all players are going to do. These problems were never fixed.DBD has become this.
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We're at the point where if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.
Let the game become just like when Strip Mine was legal in Magic: The Gathering. You lose enough times to Strip Mine until you start running it yourself. Now the winner is determined by whoever plays Strip Mine first. The entire game is now just one card.
DBD builds will now become solely tunnel and anti-tunnel, and that's all DBD will be. Diversity will be gone. Let it happen. Just run anti-tunnel perks as survivor. Why run anything else?
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And they're also going to revert Wicked back to its original form. You don't give survivors built-in anti-tunnel, but you then take away a new anti-tunnel perk!? New Wicked would have at least alleviated some of this. If tunneling is here to stay, we'll need some more strong anti-tunnel perks.
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Make it the same as 2v8 - hook moves away from killer after being hooked, no hook highlight, no unhook notification, and hook moves if camped.
Problem solved.
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@Xxjwaynexx said:
Idk as s tier and op as nurse is she has never had a super high pick rate and I really doubt that these changes will increase it. Now ghoul and blight yeah I can see that. Nurse is a funny killer in either you pick her up and excel with her or you're dog water with her until you become mid and then give up
This is so true. I main Spirit and Sadako, but I like using Nurse against my friends and the bots; I only occasionally use her in public matches. Her learning curve is so stupidly high that when I see her as I'm playing survivor, I don't worry and I usually escape. Only once did I encounter a god Nurse, and she slugged all of us in about 2 minutes. There is no in between with her. You're either as broken and S-tier as the consensus says, or you're a silly goose trying to not overshoot everything you fly to XD
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4020028#Comment_4020028
It's not exactly something that needs deep research. Killers tunnel because it's unbalanced, that's always been why it happens.
There are definitely killer problems to fix too, but they're largely unrelated to tunnelling. Tunnelling just happens to be the response most killers choose because it's the most bang for your buck regarding effort to value.
People will always find a way to exploit a game, especially one that’s janky like DBD. If this was a more competitive game (or an actual competitive game), then these exploits would have been obliterated a long time ago.
It’s so ridiculously self-evident that no one likes tunneling - to the point where people have stopped playing. Things like this have actually shut down other games.
Look at Dark Souls 1’s pvp. It’s unplayable; it’s a broken mess, a laughable joke. So we all pvp in Dark Souls 3 and Elden Ring instead.Eventually, DBD will feel will these ripples and inevitably either shut down, or be played just for cosmetics/IP’s and no one will care about balance changes. We too, will just play custom as we consider it a joke of a game.
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Perks in DBD are exactlyyyyy like cards in Magic: The Gathering (MTG). The pool of good cards is extremely small. Some of them are niche, some of them have synergy, some of them are must-haves, and some of them are “junk” (meaning they serve a general purpose). But most cards are simply bad.
Since DBD perks represent this, only a small amount of perks will be used. Exhaustion perks, for the most part, are guaranteed to work. We want guarantees in MTG, and we want guarantees in DBD.
Once the pool of good perks widens, then there will be more variety.
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How is this a party game with such a severe lack of content? If anything, Behavior has been desperately pushing for this game to be competitive. The game is so simple and one-track minded, yet with a lot of exploits and tech. It’s very much geared towards the “win or lose” mindset. There are no killer bots.
It can never truly be a competitive game though, since it’s asymmetrical. I wish it was more party-like. We really need more modes and objectives. -
I think a lot of it is because there's two sides - a remedy for sports-like competition - except it's asymmetrical. How can this work?
DBD should always be considered a party game. You can't make this game competitive, no matter how desperate the streamers and the developers want it to be. That one amazing killer player won't be as good as that one amazing survivor player if roles were reversed and vice-versa, not to mention there's four people on one particular side. What standard can we have to ensure that both sides always have equal strength if all five players rotated killer? See how confusing this is getting? What measures all this? What's a win, if a survivor dies within a minute but the rest escape? That dead survivor definitely didn't win. The killer wasn't able to kill everyone. There is no winning, only living or dying. The fact that the community tried to implement a win-condition - or perhaps the MMR did - was the first wrong step in the wrong direction.
There are too many random factors to determine how many kills the killer will get. The random map, the random team, the chosen killer, the perks on both sides, the mistakes, the reliance on team-effort, the hatch, the random spawn placements, etc. I always felt that because of these random occurrences, the game should have been geared towards party-esque. The super popularity of cosmetics and IP's are an extremely obvious example that people want to look good and play as their favorite killer/survivor. Yet, so much time is spent on trying to balance what feels like an unfinished game (due to it's lack of content and repetitive gameplay). And guess what? Still endless complaints on both sides.
Once we stop taking this game too seriously and entrapping it in a mundane, repetitive niche, the sooner we can have more modes and objectives. They should be focusing on the fun factor, and it will make more people happy. Sure, some people consider competition fun. If you feel that DBD has a competitive nature to it, then that's fine. However, it really needs to be an expansive, jam-packed game which has something for everyone. The 2v8 is certainly a step in the right direction, as it is by far the best mode. The game as a whole needs an overhaul.
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One thing I got extremely excited about is a recent survey mentioning the possibility of more content/objectives (like finding car parts). I hope they implement these things.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4019352#Comment_4019352
i agree there could be a lot more to the game than simply repair gens, other games have done it like f13th and TCM, they could also make the game have health bars instead of hook states and lose the hooks altogether because lets face it, who enjoys being stuck on the hook with nothing to do? all these changes sum up to a different game entirely and it wouldnt be dbd anymore.
The fundamentals don't have to change. Everything just needs to be expanded. More objectives and dynamic encounters with the killer won't change core DBD. That's because there's just so much room for improvement; so much room for new content. Hooks, pallets, health states, gens…those aren't the problems. It's the execution of it all. What we have is like an unfinished game.
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I’m a huge advocator of having more objectives. The hatch should be another objective. It should spawn immediately on the map, and require a special key that needs to be found. Once opened, only one survivor can escape through it. That would really give more dynamic to the game.
Less gens, more objectives.
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@runningguy said:
if there is an issue with soloq its the players… devs cant do much about that. how are the devs going to force people to do gens intead of totems? or force people to take hits? or force someone to not lead the killer to the only person doing gens? they cant.
They can add more objectives instead of the sole monotonous repairing of the gens, and make DBD a more than decent game. Have an objective that requires being in chase, have one that involves finding car parts, have one that requires opening the hatch after finding a key, or how about one where you fight the killer?
There’s a good game in here somewhere, but we get subpar simplicity instead. -
It absolutely is killer sided. I spent most of my years as a killer. I was Sadako for a while, but I use Spirit nowadays. Even as Sadako, regardless of which iteration - I can normally get 3-4 kills. Sometimes I run up against a SWF team, and it ends up being random to how many I kill. Those are rare encounters though. But, being a killer gets old after a while.
I somewhat recently dived deep into survivor. I’m pretty good. But man, the tunneling/slugging/camping is just poor development. It’s terrible to experience, even if you’re part of a SWF team. At least as a killer I’m always playing and always experiencing the entire match; not waiting around on hook or on the ground (or just dead super early).
Remember folks - a killer plays DBD; a survivor watches DBD.
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@solidgamer44 said:
I swear It feels like BHVR mainly address things around killer changes more than anything and survivors get left behind.
I say this as a killer main too, like damn man what happened to fog vials? got dragged out and shot in the back of the head with no news about it.
Tenacity + Hope nerf is insanity
Hope for the development of this game is quite LITERALLY nerfed
Big bias towards the killer role and that's not the move should be 50/50
I’ve been a killer main for such a long time, but now that I’ve dived many hours into survivor, it’s been such a miserable experience as one.
Yeah, making builds are fun…the cosmetics are amazing…improving chases and looping are really interesting, but these things go right out the window when tunneling and slugging run rampant. I never had to do these things as killer; why are they so prominent? Also the fact that there’s no room for solo play - if even one teammate messes up, it’s over for the whole team.
We need more objectives. Diversify the game a bit. Lessen the gens. Give us a car with parts to find. Give us the hatch at the beginning and we have to try to open it. Have the last survivor fight the killer like what actually happens at the end of every horror movie. This game could really be something special.
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@Peachblow said:
So can we like… get an update on this anti-tunnel/slug/camp? It was bad before the announcement, now it's just insufferable.
It’s gotten so bad that I stopped playing. Thank god Ninja Gaiden 4 just came out. Now that’s a well-developed game. Extremely recommend! You should go play that instead ;)
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4012421#Comment_4012421
I currently enjoying remake of Silent Hill2 and planning to try SH3 as well.
But yeah, that's not exactly what I'm looking for. The thing is, I've already spent a lot of money on this game. I can't just leave DBD—at least not right now. I’m making pauses and that's fine, it just feels it doesn't really work anymore and quality is even more poor
Silent Hill 3 is a phenomenal game. True horror. You’ll really appreciate Heather/Cheryl after playing it. The Silent Hill 2 remake was incredible as well. But definitely dive into 3; that’ll keep you busy for a bit :)
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As a killer main that uses Spirit and Sadako, I’ve never had to slug, tunnel, or camp. I consistently get 3-4 kills, even against SWF teams. I’ll never forget when I was up against a 4 flashlight-ridden Feng SWF team. They looped and tea-bagged me like crazy, but I got them all. So I don’t understand why killers complained about the changes; I thought they were perfect. Maybe there’s just a lot of bad killer mains out there who need these toxic tactics to win?
I’ve played plenty of survivor though, and I feel for you guys. It’s just not fun. Tunneling and slugging run rampant, and they simply prevent you from playing the game. You wait around more than anything else. I’ll stick to killer.Implementing some of the 2v8 ideas would help, if anything. The hook moving after a hook, no unhook notifications (was that in 2v8?), simple gen flash-bangs, variable difficulty/catch-up but built-in nowhere to hide. 2v8 is the best mode by far.
I won’t get into the idea of having more for survivors to do other than gens, but that would fix so many problems this game has, and become something special. -
You have to remember that video games need to be fun before they are balanced. Good development means making a game that’s entertaining and not frustrating to play. Removing scratch marks would make the game a lot less fun.
Even if it balanced the game more, people that play killer would be so incredibly frustrated to find and chase survivors that they would just play something else. At the end of the day, frustration leads to ceasing to play the game, which is always the last thing a developer wants to happen.
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@Milkymalk said:
To clarify that, it's easier to first look at what the survivors' objective is: To finish gens, open the gates and escape.
The killer's objective is to prevent that. If that means slugging is necessary, it's necessary.
However, it usually is not.
Sounds like a bummer to be a survivor; better to either play Killer or another game altogether.
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@ChaosWam @Xernoton thanks for your responses guys. We can all agree that if they were to make condemned something that can even be called a threat, we’d be pretty happy. It’s just not useful anymore.
If they did replace condemned, I was thinking more along the lines of a haste effect whenever she “condemns” someone. Or maybe give an exposed effect; something temporary each time she triggers it. It would work a lot better and would make more sense. Going through pallets would be a little strong, but I’d be willing to test it.
After doing some testing though, it seems that the Iri Tape with the Iri Remote might be the way to go now. Since condemned is a thing of the past and doesn’t help, I’m able to teleport and see auras constantly. TV’s don’t turn off so I can be super aggressive. Combine that with lethal pursuers, I might continue to go this route.
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@ChaosWam @Xernoton thanks for your responses guys. We can all agree that if they were to make condemned something that can even be called a threat, we’d be pretty happy. It’s just not useful anymore.
If they did replace condemned, I was thinking more along the lines of a haste effect whenever she “condemns” someone. Or maybe give an exposed effect; something temporary each time she triggers it. It would work a lot better and would make more sense. Going through pallets would be a little strong, but I’d be willing to test it.
After doing some testing though, it seems that the Iri Tape with the Iri Remote might be the way to go now. Since condemned is a thing of the past and doesn’t help, I’m able to teleport and see auras constantly. TV’s don’t turn off so I can be super aggressive. Combine that with lethal pursuers, I might continue to go this route.
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@Xernoton said:
With the dev update out, I wanted to see what kind of changes would be made from the PTB especially in regards to Sadako, Blight and the Hillbilly.
Sadako
I understand, that her PTB version with locked in condemned did promote tunneling and that this is not what we want. However, this change is pretty terrible because it only promotes slugging even more. Think about it: If you hook someone twice, you can lock in 4 stacks of condemned. That's 4/7th (a bit less because you still need to find and down them after applying the condemned stacks). But when you have that survivor hooked twice, why in the world would you go for a condemned kill, then? It's faster to try and hook them again.
But since Sadako is undeniably weak in chase, she will not focus on that. Instead, you will find players only chasing to get people off gens and then teleport to quickly spread condemned. There is no incentive to end a chase and there is no reason why they would waste their time hooking survivors. Slugging becomes her default play style again.
The 10 seconds cooldown to spreading condemned are understandable but a huge nerf none the less. A nerf that would need to come with some compensatory buffs. These however did not happen. Sadako would have been a somewhat decent killer, had you taken her from the PTB straight to live. But with both of these nerfs, you make her only viable play style (focusing on condemned over hooks) less of a threat and remove any incentive for her to hook survivors.
There were tons of feedback with ideas on how to make her just a little bit stronger and give her a little extra edge. None of that was used. Her second terrible addon pass was not updated. I can only think of this as laziness. Her addons are still terrible and there was enough feedback on it. The Ring Drawing is now more required than ever because otherwise tapes are no threat whatsoever.
Basically you managed to rework her into a weaker version of her original self. With all the downsides but none of the upsides.
Blight
C33 is probably in a better spot now. We'll see how it does, once the Blight mains have gotten used to it.
Blight Tag is still awful. Infinite Rushes are a bad design. It feels awful to play against because you have absolutely no counterplay and it's still pretty over the top because good Blight players will guarantee hits every 20 seconds anyway. This one needs a completely different effect.
Adrenaline Vial... Yes it's busted again. Congrats.
Hillbilly
Greased Throttle and Thompson Mix will be pretty good with these changes. Although, it makes me question if this is a good idea. Missing a chainsaw should still come with a draw back. Not as excruciating as it is on live servers but this seems like a bad idea. We'll see though.
Thermal Casing and Ragged Engine still won't be good. You are highly encouraged to use your chainsaw as much as possible, so the effects don't really come into play that often. They need new effects.
High Speed Idler Screw and Discarded Air Filter are still useless. These addons are by design not useful in any way. There is no niche to make them at least somewhat good. You could bring nothing at all and you'd still be in the exact same spot because all it takes for the heat to stop dissipating is revving the chainsaw for a moment. These 2 addons need entirely new effects. You could triple the numbers and they'd still be bad.
I am a bit sad to see that there is no change planned for the SFX volume of the chainsaw. We couldn't have possibly been more clear, that it was simply too loud. Please, turn that down by 30% (old Off-Brand Motor Oil value). You cannot expect people to play a killer that even on lower volumes causes earache.
Test it for yourselves. Just go into a custom game with normal volume and then run around with the chainsaw for a bit. After 10 minutes this becomes unbearable. It is a huge quality of life issue that would be quite simple to fix.
I said this before and I’ll say it again - condemned needs to go.
Sadako has map mobility and stealth, but she’s terrible during chases. Condemned wasn’t really all that strong, and now that it’s been nerfed, it’s really useless. Who cares about locking in condemned? There’s not going to be any time or justification to use it as a means to get kills.
She needs something that will help her along throughout the match. Stacking condemned doesn’t match the lore anyway. Sadako is the only killer with a status effect that does nothing unless she downs a survivor after meeting a demanding criteria.