Blueberry
Blueberry
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@quentins_beanie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3727637#Comment_3727637
you prolly think that her kit has very little 🤪🤪 stealth, information, haste and hinderance, i just wanted her hinderance removed while keeping the absolute rest which COULD AND DEFINITELY SHOULD be reworkd, i provided a very lazy solution that is gonna keep the vast majority of entitled survivors happy enough cause they can do their looping without running at turtle speed
"you prolly think that her kit has very little 🤪🤪 "
And why would you assume that? I actually don't think that. No need to be mocking towards someone, especially when you're mocking them for a point they don't even believe and you just assumed they did.
All I said was that we should remove the unhealthy parts of her kit to make her more fun to face and play as while buffing other areas so that she doesn't get nerfed as we remove her unhealthy features. What's so controversial about that to mock me?
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@ad19970 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3727719#Comment_3727719
I agree that it should lean a bit more towards being reliant on survivors making mistakes.
But it seems we also disagree on what killers are A tier. I consider a fair amount of killers to be A tier. Or at least high B tier, which in my opinion can also still keep up with very good survivor teams, they just have a slightly harder time doing so.
I would put roughly less than 10% of the roster A tier or above. I would not say high B tier killers can keep up with good survivor teams at all. B tier in DBD is very weak and relies on a lot of survivor mistakes to win even if they're playing perfectly.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3728174#Comment_3728174
the game are super easy for killer on average besides eyrie of crows. I don't know what scottjund is complaining about.
Well it’s because we disagree about RPD being such a killer sided map.
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I think the better route would be adding a little less break rate when it’s going through an object to give him a little more time to pull around the loop than he currently has.
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I've actually been loving it lol
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@radiantHero23 said:
Wasn't the original idea of no mither to be hard mode dbd without much compensation?
^ Literally this.
I don't know how many times this topic has to be gone over on the forums. No Mither isn't supposed to be a "good" perk, it's a hard mode, it's supposed to be bad.
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Thankfully nerfed next patch.
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@ad19970 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3727697#Comment_3727697
Yeah no can't agree with that. In my opinion, the majority of maps are now balanced. Coldwin maps are all fair, one is even killer sided, most Macmillan and Autoheaven maps are also very balanced. Indoor maps are mostly balanced or even killer sided, and some of the newer maps like Borgo are also very balanced.
In my opinion, A tier killers are the perfect killers balance wise. If both teams play perfectly, survivors surely still have the upper hand, but it's definitely not as black and white in my opinion. A tier killers can keep up if you ask me, especially if they choose to tunnel and camp. They have enough chase power to not only rely on survivors mistakes.
We're just gonna have to agree to disagree on maps, that's fine.
I do think it should lean towards being reliant on survivor mistakes since they're more likely to make mistakes as it's 4 different people. I just think the degree to how reliant most killers are is too much. I think A tier killers are probably a good balance level to where it still leans towards the survivors but not too much. By that point though, the vast majority of the killer roster are below A tier. IE if that's the case, most are too reliant on survivor mistakes, per my main point. If hypothetically almost all killers were around A tier level right now, I'd be fine with the current state.
My opinions here are also mostly assuming some variation of swf, not full solo queue, as the majority of my matches are not solo queue.
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@ad19970 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3727690#Comment_3727690
That is really not true. You don't have to rely on survivors making mistakes, not anymore. There are enough strong killers that don't rely on survivors mistakes, and maps have also become much more balanced to the point where you do not have to just rely on survivors mistakes. Killers nowadays have enough outplay potential.
Hard disagree. There are a few killers that do not rely on survivor mistakes, but like 95% of them do, to varying degrees. Maps have been getting much better, but better, is not good, they're still mostly bad. The majority of maps are still survivor sided to varying degrees, even if it's much better than it used to be.
If both sides play perfectly you lose on most killers. That's how you know they rely on survivor mistakes. Thankfully survivors tend to make lots of mistakes because it's 4 people, but it doesn't detract from the point. I'm not removing killer skill from the equation though. High killer skill sets up for more mistakes to happen, you're just still reliant on whether they fall for it or not.
Compare this to like a god tier Nurse. If the god tier Nurse and survivors both play perfectly the Nurse is probably winning. That's why she's an example of an exception where the survivors rely on her making mistakes.
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You rely on them making lots of mistakes. Thankfully most of them do. Unfortunately though if you hypothetically both play perfectly, you lose badly. To make up for how crazy of an advantage a 4 man swf is you have to be a significantly better player than them. Now you could try and compensate for their advantage with tunneling/camping, that's what most people do. The game isn't balanced for a SWF match.
To me personally though tunneling/camping/swf artificially gives people a lot of wins they wouldn't have got otherwise as it removes a lot of skill from the match and artificially increases their win rates. This is why I don't tunnel or camp. If I ever swf I don't bring items or map offerings and I run meme builds. I at least acknowledge that it's an unfair advantage and it wasn't a "fair" match for the killer.
Unfortunately the higher mmr you go the more and more swf lobbies you get, full meta stacked, map offerings and multiple styptics/syringes/BNP's. Not rare at all.
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There’s no rational reason not to show us at the bare minimum our own mmr I agree.
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No, those sound like terrible changes. People don’t think SM is too strong just unhealthy. You’re nerfing her heavily. It’s also not objective, it’s subjective.
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I'd rather keep it 5 but make it deactivate if the killer hooks someone else.
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Gen slow down perks get a lot less necessary when you take away all the 2nd chance, after 2nd chance, after 2nd chance perks that make chases take way longer than they should. "Generally" not having either in the match bar a couple random ones, it tends to even the game speed out to where it normally is when both are in play.
People tend to always take note of how much time gen perks save, but rarely is it mentioned how much time all the Exhaustion and 2nd chance perks save on the other side.
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@xltechno said:
Kill rates are often cited as the basis for disastrous experiences.
In the first place, if survivors boast an average escape rate of 40%, then in theory at least one survivor should escape every game.
In reality, 4K is also possible, so it's not so simple to say. However, those who claim to play 5gen4k every game will not be able to embody 40% unless they experience many escapes.This means that survivors are always divided into those who cannot escape and those who are often able to escape. On top of that, considering the existence of suicides and AFK, we can infer that the actual survivor escape rate is not that bad.
Survivors with a certain level of skill generally have a high chance of surviving until the end, so even if they die, they will feel highly satisfied with the game. Therefore, the mortality rate itself cannot be a reason for not enjoying the game.
" Therefore, the mortality rate itself cannot be a reason for not enjoying the game."
I especially agree with this. The enjoyment has much less to do with whether I won or lost in much more to do with how I won or lost. Like I can still have fun losing if it was because I played bad since I can learn from that to do better next time.
Relating to this some interesting questions I polled people on were about "What matters more, how much you win or lose, or why you won or lost?"
The polls were pretty unanimous that people said why matters significantly more. Oddly enough though, when you ask about using kill rates for game balance, now the kills or escapes are all that matters, not the why. End result is all that matters. So the why only mattered more when it was personal for them, but they care much less of why in the broad sense of game changes/balance.
I found this quite odd. To me why always matters more and is why kill rates for example should not be directly used for balance as they are flawed by many, many factors. Yet people quote them religiously with why not mattering. Even when you show an example of a game that illustrates a problem for one side. Instead of focusing on the point, they'll say "but you you/ya'll won", like that changes any of the point.
Perhaps it's people just only caring about whichever metric at the time backs up what they already want to believe. Confirmation Bias basically.
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The amount of people thinking the game is already lost because of an early down or a bad start is baffling to me. Those games are still completely winnable. People's gauge on when "the game already basically over" or "not winnable" are ridiculously loose. Kind of like the amount of things called "tunneling" that aren't actually tunneling. Literally one bad chase as the killer can cost him the entire game. Many of these matches are more winnable as survivor than people think.
As a team the survivors can generally make many, many more mistakes and still win than the killer can.
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@WaveyTrey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3726780#Comment_3726780
His traps should punish more tbh.
I also propose survivors become afflicted with incapacitated and hindered for X seconds when they free themselves.
If anyone’s leg got caught in a trap you wouldn’t be able to do anything right away. Survivors running at top speed doesn’t seem right either.I’m down for your premise, I just don’t like incapacitated as an effect since they can’t do anything. I’d be down for like a repair debuff or something.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3726655#Comment_3726655
I mean that is not overrated. that is just saying that the killer has high skill-cieling to perform well.
Pinhead. Rated too highly. The other killer that i think is overrated is Oni. The outplay level of the survivor is high.
I disagree. I wouldn't realistically say she's A because nearly no one can play her at A. It being because of her skill ceiling is irrelevant if they can't reach it. The emphasis is more on the amount able to achieve it, IE nurse or blight are high skill ceilings that most don't play well on average but there is still actually a decent enough portion able to that's it's worth using that skill ceiling as an accurate measure of tier. So in other words the percentage of Huntresses that can play her at A are so low it's nearly rounded to a 0 to me.
I agree on Pinhead and Oni being overrated as well.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3726911#Comment_3726911
I believe the example of 4 slugs is an outlier. Most of the DCs I've seen have been at the start of a match or if the survivor is dead on hook and goes down.
This ^
Your examples are extremely common and worth noting. Whereas 4 man slugs are ridiculously rare, like I haven't seen even one in hundreds of games.
Plus removing themselves on hook immediately at the start are very common and that's included in kill rates artificially raising them as well.
If anything kill rates are actually lower than what the data we have shows.
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He does better with the addon on certain maps. That seems fine.
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@FrostySeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3726705#Comment_3726705
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/SY6G2A07KQO8/my-image-289-29.png
Trappers traps stick out like a sore thumb on this map
Curving with Hilllbilly is unnecessarily difficult because of how many LOS blockers there are with doorways, and you can barely run with him for long distances turning him essentially into an M1 killer with a decent insta-down
Nurse struggles with LOS blockers and how many thin hallways there are making it so that sometimes your blinks will shoot you either past your target or not at all
Huntress with LOS blockers
Leatherface with how many tight spots there are making it very easy to crash
Oni with LOS blockers making it hard to flick with his power, and many awkward loop shapes
Deathslinger with LOS blockers and how holding W on this map hurts him
Phead with weird loop shapes making his power more difficult to hit
Blight with how many tight corridors there are making his power difficult to hit
Trickster with LOS blockers causing him to take extra time to down survivors
Artist with weird loop shapes and multi floor making it very easy to hop in a locker and deny her power
Dredge because this map has singlehandedly one of the worst locker spawns in all of DBD making his power borderline unusable on this map
Wesker because of LOS blockers and weird loop shapes
And finally, the Knight who will constantly have his guards get caught on map collision and how many LOS blockers there are making it so dropping a guard instantly will usually not work
RPD encourages holding W because the map has so many loops that can be chained one after another making it so that you can make chases absolutely awful for the Killer. Open maps will always have that hold W aspect to them but at the very least ranged and dash Killers can reach them fast, not on RPD because of the LOS blockers.
3 Gen isn't a super common problem on RPD, but it is a problem that can definitely exist on it. Certain Killers, like Singularity or SM can get lucky with map generation and if they do then they can make it incredibly difficult to break the 3 gen. Granted, it's not an RPD-exclusive problem but given how the map doesn't have that many strong window loops it makes it incredibly difficult to loop the Killer at all after most of the pallets have been consumed.
I think you are wrong on many killers.
Dredge excels. God tier map on Onryo. Excels on Wesker. Excels on Trapper. At least mid if not excels with PH. At least mid with Knight. Literally ALL stealth killers excel on this map idk how you could put any of them lower. Hag is at least mid if not excels.
I think there were many killers you put as way worse than they are on this map.
"RPD encourages holding W because the map has so many loops that can be
chained one after another making it so that you can make chases
absolutely awful for the Killer. Open maps will always have that hold W
aspect to them but at the very least ranged and dash Killers can reach
them fast, not on RPD because of the LOS blockers."The chaining is not nearly as good as most outdoor maps and the chaining here is way harder as you can actually force them to play a loop easier than most outdoor maps. You are vastly under realizing how much of an impact seeing the killer a mile away on outdoor maps has on hold w play. Also making indoor maps sound worse for way more killers than there actually are. It's actually quite a small group of killers that are actually hindered by indoor maps. Way smaller than your examples.
"3 Gen isn't a super common problem on RPD, but it is a problem that can
definitely exist on it. Certain Killers, like Singularity or SM can get
lucky with map generation and if they do then they can make it
incredibly difficult to break the 3 gen. Granted, it's not an
RPD-exclusive problem but given how the map doesn't have that many
strong window loops it makes it incredibly difficult to loop the Killer
at all after most of the pallets have been consumed."3 genning isn't an issue anymore on any killer, on any map. Between killer changes, map changes, and perk changes it is just not an issue any more at all. Much less on RPD.
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Trapper needs more consistency and time efficiency. Start him with all his traps and increase the hit box detection on them since many times they can squeeze around them when it should be blocking a path. There also needs to be some punishment for getting caught in a trap while injured if you free yourself. Honestly rescuing yourself if you get trapped while already injured should down you. The traps self rearming at a slow rate should also be a thing to improve his efficiency.
Now in exchange for all this I think they should add a minimum distance between each trap to prevent the piling of them all on top of the basement or hook type play so that he is forced to spread them out a little more.
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@dweetboi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/415265/blood-rush-buff
Maybe instead of instantly getting rid of all negative status effect, it gives a vigil but at like 100% for 20 seconds. and vigil dosen't effect killers powers since the timer is on the power itself and not the status effect.
Oh that could be interesting. Could be tested on the PTB.
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I like the idea. Only issue I see is it can directly counter some killer powers which I know the devs didn’t want to be a thing. Like instantly removing Ghostface Exposed for example. Maybe make it just on death hook you can press the active button to remove Exhaustion, minus the needing to be full health stipulation it has to make it a little easier to use? Idk how balanced this would be though. I generally really dislike second chance perks, especially ones that have no skill requirement.
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I would love this as well. I think the issue isn’t as much ability but more not wanting us to have that info so readily. It’s basically the same reason mmr is hidden. If you can’t see problems you can’t complain about them. If they don’t want us to know our own ranking I wouldn’t imagine they’d want us having that unfortunately.
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@FrostySeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3725488#Comment_3725488
Play any ranged Killer or Killer with a dash ability like Blight, Wesker, Oni, or Hillbilly on this map. At it's very best RPD is a heavily flawed map and at its worst, it's a map that will cause you as a Killer to lose badly because survivors hold W on this map or as a Survivor be kept captive because your team didn't complete the gens in the right order leading to a very, very long game of trying to break a 3 gen.
No offense, but you are in the extreme minority of people who think RPD is a good map. The fact that most Killers struggle hard on this map says a lot about it and how it needed to be reworked faster than any other map in the game.
Ranged killers or dash killers are not a good reason for why it’s bad. Outdoor maps are bad for stealth killers too, but that’s totally fine I guess. Also, all the dash killers are already high tier killers anyway unlike stealth killers who are naturally weak and could use the extra help. So if anything maps leaning better for already weak killers is better than maps leaning better for already naturally strong killers.
I disagree on the hold w as well. Outdoor maps are what encourage hold w gameplay as you can see the killer coming from a mile away. Indoor maps such as RPD disincentivize holding w because many times you can’t tell what direction the killers coming from because of all the LoS blockers.
3 genning is not an issue on RPD. I can’t remember the last time I’ve ever lost a game on RPD because of a 3 gen.
Most killers do not struggle on RPD.
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@UndeddJester said:
Hmmm... not many spring to mind...
I keep seeing strange calls every now and again to nerf Xenomorph and Nemesis, when both have some pretty hefty weaknesses and drawbacks to work around... and as someone who tends to see competant survivors face them, they almost always have a rough time 😐
Ironically enough if you follow nightlights data for Xeno, for how highly everyone rates them, is generally always at least bottom 3 in kill rates. Usually around 51%. So by that metric they are actually very undertuned and need buffs since they’re aiming for 60% lol
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@Sunflower_Mage said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3726654#Comment_3726654
Probably to massage the numbers to make it look nicer than it would otherwise appear.
Probably. If they cut those as well the kill rate data would drop massively.
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Huntress. Most people put her in A tier but honestly like .01% of Huntress players are good enough to be A tier. The vast majority of Huntresses even in high mmr games are B at best. Lots of people play against her wrong.
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@ad19970 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3726495#Comment_3726495
In my experience dc's aren't very common, unless the match was kind of lost anyways. Hook suicides are more common for me at least. Though of course I do get the occasional dc as well.
However, especially when talking about balance, I don't think it makes sense to consider these matches in any way or form. Not to mention that killers dc sometimes as well.
That’s something that is unfortunate. They don’t count matches with DCs but do count ones with people removing themselves on hook even though it’s basically the same thing but just to avoid the penalty, and technically worse even because then they don’t even get a bot. Not sure why they include these matches in the kill rates.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3726546#Comment_3726546
This will sound really dumb, but I don't think the DbD community is a good authority on what it wants. I'm of the belief that people are just parroting their favorite streamer 50% of the time and aren't actually thinking about what they're saying. The loudest portion of the community has a "rules for thee, not for me" mindset, where they want to sweat and win as much as they can, but they'll have an absolute meltdown the second their opponent does the same. I don't think those players should be catered to in any way. I think the devs should have the stance that players are going to be matched appropriately, and the game will be adjusted if it's truly unplayable from there. But I suspect players are just parroting their favorite streamer who feels like their income is threatened when faced with the existential crisis of a 50% win rate.
I generally agree with your point for the most part. There’s a lot of people that parrot streamers opinions without the actual experience themselves. I will say though that the bad matchmaking covers up a lot of the games poor balance, ie good vs good players since it’s balanced for bad players. So higher mmr people would have a very bad experience since this change essentially magnifies the games balance problems and brings them to the forefront in every match. So I mean we could say this is good if you thought they had the intention of fixing those imbalances but I don’t think they do since they want it balanced for bad players, not good ones. So I’m not really sure how we solve that problem. Bad matchmaking is annoying and a core problem but in the games current state I think it’s a required problem since they don’t want to balance appropriately.
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5% flat per injured, that’s it. Rarely do you get all 4 injured consistently so most would just be getting 10-15% which isn’t that crazy but decent. Best case scenario of legion or plague would get 20% and that is good slow down but nothing too crazy or OP, just competitive with other meta slow downs. This keeps it decent on all killers but not OP in the best scenarios.
Alternatively you could make it 4% instead but then I think it’s weak enough it should include healing again.
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@The_Krapper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3726503#Comment_3726503
This is absolutely true and even though alot of people weren't big fans I'd like to bring ranks back and depipping, it wasn't perfect by any means but it's better than we have now, last night my squad got a 4 man out on a p100 Blight who was seriously cracked with some of his plays and did really well it literally came down to 2 plays at the end game that cost him a 2k, then we turn around and get a prestiged 0 trapper who cant catch anyone and he goes to the corner to sit ,only in the endgame do i see he has 10 hours in the game.... 10 against a squad with more than 40,000 combined hours, that should never happen in any game that claims to care about balance , I friend requested him and invited him to my group to teach him more but it just shows how bad the MMR system is in this game.
I think most people agree that the old ranking system with emblems was the best system but I think at this point they’ve just committed so much time and money to trying to make this SBMM work they never want to drop it and admit it was a failure. Most people also liked actually being able to see your rank as well instead of now where everything is hidden.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3726522#Comment_3726522
I think it largely boils down to matchmaking. Pooling servers within reasonable distance would increase the amount of survivors queued in any given region. Killers would stay on their nearest server, but a survivor on NA East could end up playing on NA West. Not feasible for every region due to distances, but it could work for NA and some players in EU. It would allow for more accurate matches from an increased player pool. Obviously, this idea is without any context for the tools they use for queuing and matching players. Things often sound easy until you actually have to make the script work with whatever tool is being used.
The second idea will sound dumb, but…use SBMM. It's already in place. For example, I often encounter a P100 Blight player from SA who quite literally only runs quad slowdown and double iri add ons. I encounter them multiple times every week and it's the only thing they play. A player like that should never be playing against a random solo queue team. Ever. That should be a long time queue to face an appropriate challenge against a 4 man SEAL team. It's the reason SBMM systems exist. When players are achieving these absurd win rates on either role, they should be facing longer queue times against tough opponents, not instant queues into automatic wins. Even 20 win streaks should never really be happening, and they've become normalized.
The issue with these ideas are that this is nearly exactly what they tested prior and it was pretty unanimously hated by the community as it one increased queue times substantially, especially for the higher mmr players and two it made every match a miserable sweat fest. So the community already decided they didn’t want this.
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@[Deleted User] said:
I think DbD has a pretty big journey vs destination problem. The devs seem fairly hyper focused on the 60% kill rate target, but you have to arrive there in an organic way.
It often feels like matches are scheduled wins and losses where there's little to no outcome variance if that same match was played 10 times. Teammates are often so bad that the game isn't winnable, or the killer is so overmatched that they only manage a couple hooks. Trials are very often complete blowouts in one direction or the other. The actual close, tense trials that could go either way are the rarity. It's another relic of symmetrical pvp SBMM taken without context for DbD and its asymmetry.
What would you think about trying to bring the outliers in and how you would personally do that?
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For me it’s been about the same. More casual killers but also more casual teammates so it kinda evened out for me personally.
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@JPLongstreet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3726418#Comment_3726418
I agree. It's a shift in the mindset some. Most players aren't sweating and there's more of a "just go with it" mentally. Do what you can with what you're given, and kinda run around a bit.
Healthy alternative to the standard mode I'd say.
Yeah I agree. I think the perks being random already puts them in a casual mindset since lots of RNG makes it feel like a party game.
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The main issues of solo queue are matchmaking and players being bad. It has nothing to do with balance, IE “buffs”.
I get those miserable solo queue games that are auto losses because of my team as well, but if you yourself are actually a good player you can do well on average. I’ve tracked my solo queue games over the last 100 matches and I’ve got roughly a 76% win rate. I exclude DC matches as the devs do as well and I also exclude if someone removes themselves on hook as that’s the same as a DC but even worse since you don’t get a bot. Most matches that actually play out without people giving up go quite well.
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I’ve enjoyed the randomness but I think what also made it feel good was how casual it felt and not sweaty. I feel this is kinda what a casual mode would feel like.
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@DredgeyEdgey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3726203#Comment_3726203
16m might be a bit big but I can see 10m and the linger effect for like 2s
I tended to go a little excessive on the range to still get some value from it when the inevitable counter play is done, which is the survivors all placing their items in the corners/edges of the map.
Maybe 10m but it includes around chests? Then there would at least be some guaranteed value if they put their items at the edges.
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They should forget the Oblivious, it’s irrelevant and just seems like a random thing thrown on because it needed more. Make the item drop at 10% progress remaining, scrap the Oblivious entirely, make the aura effect radius linger around them if they pick it back up for 20 seconds, and lastly make the radius like 16 meters.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3726149#Comment_3726149
You are looking at it at face value. The point of Thana is to slow the game down right? But, to make thana good, means you make the survivor's time miserable, because everything is so slow so they have to go find a teammate to heal themselves constantly. But, if you make it so survivors now have a choice, they can continue to eat the thana, or they can heal themselves, or a teammate, it gives a choice.
Lets look at the math of that one for example. So you get injured right? Repairs are now 6% slower, so that means a gen takes 5.4 seconds longer. Not much time by itself, so maybe you think, i'll just ignore it, i won't heal myself and just keep working the gen. But now another survivor gets injured, so now the gen is taking 11 seconds longer. Now you start thinking, "well, i'm injured, which makes my next chase riskier, maybe i'll just spend the extra time to heal myself or find a teammate to heal me" so now, you heal yourself, which makes you safer for your next chase, and removes the penalty on the gen. But, while you are healing yourself, what is happening? That's right, you aren't working on the gen. The penalty itself did not delay the game much, but it delayed it ENOUGH to encourage you to spend your time doing something else.
Its like the pig traps. If you are a good pig player, you do not tunnel the people with the traps, you trap someone, and then you mostly ignore them, yeah maybe sometimes you run into them running to a box, or you catch them at a box, so you maybe down them and then continue your other chase, but you aren't actively tunneling the person with the trap. Because the person with the trap is already NOT working on gens, so you should instead focus your time on people who ARE working on gens. 1 Person trying to remove a trap, 1 person in a chase, 1 person on a hook, and 1 person going for the save are NO survivors on gens. You aren't going to use the traps to try to get kills, you are using them to make survivors do something ELSE other than the gens.
Similarly here, the point is to make thana JUST strong enough, that it makes the survivor think "maybe i SHOULD heal myself". So they spend the time getting off the gen and heal themselves. Right now, the numbers are too weak because you need all survivors injured, but if you buff thana, it becomes miserable because survivors then have to run around finding someone to heal them, or to just power through really slow gens. So the point is to give them a CHOICE, keyword CHOICE. "Do i power through this gen 6% slower and run the risk of being less safe in my next chase? Or do i take the chance here to waste a little extra time, but heal myself so i'm playing a bit safer. Do i have time to do that? What are my other teammates doing?"
It creates meaningful gameplay choices that survivors can make where they can choose to ignore it completely, or choose to go ham and keep themselves fully healed at all times, or somewhere in between.
This is actually why Thana is good on plague for example. Not because thana is actually that much slowdown, but because it encourages survivors to cleanse at the alters. Which, in turn, will speed up their repair speeds, but, it means that now they have to deal with plague potentially having their power. It creates a meaningful interesting choice, where the survivor can choose to power through it, or choose to be safer since powering through it is already being penalized, ultimately slowing the game down either way. If they ignore it it, it will slow the game down, a little bit but its much less safe. But, if they want to be safe, now the game is slowed down a lot more.
Now, maybe 6% is a little too low, perhaps it needs to be 7% to make it more worth it, but the general idea is there.
First about Pig I fundamentally disagree. You do not ignore people with traps. You juggle pressure gens and boxes to make the people with traps out position themselves as they get desperate since you’re an m1 and you can’t play normal chase dynamics. If someone is just using her traps as passive slow down I don’t think they understand how to play Pig at a high level.
What you’re describing for the survivors isn’t a choice, it’s a win/win scenario for them. 2 or less people injured ignoring healing is an insignificant slow down to matter. Now we start to reach numbers that matter at 3+ so they decide to heal? Now they get super fast healing and save time there. Either way you either get bad gen speed reduction or poor map pressure because they’re healing extra fast. Lose/lose for Thana, either way the perk is bad in this iteration. “Wasting time healing” is not good for the killer when it’s happening ridiculously faster than normal. “Wasting time healing” is a valid statement in the OLD version of Thana, not the one you’re proposing. I’d even go as far as saying this version would hurt you more than help. IE I’d rather run zero perks than I would just run this version of Thana.
What IS a choice is old Thana. Do I taken the gen reduction or spend the time healing.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3726070#Comment_3726070
That keeps it being useless.
It should be strong, but give a downside. For example:
For each injured survivor, all action speeds (except for healing) are reduced by 6%. This would be a 6%/12%/18%/24%. However, injured survivors are now able to heal themselves at a 50% speed, survivors healing on OTHER survivors is increased by 50%. Both effects are halved on survivors who are broken.
Basically, you make it a great perk for delaying the game, but the downside is survivors can easily heal themselves up at a decent rate, or heal each other very quickly if they are nearby.
That seems really bad tbh. Why does a perk that already requires you to play well to get the injures in the first place require additional downsides? This perk would kill your map pressure. You’d be effectively negating whatever extra slow down Thana would be giving you by saving them the time in heals defeating the entire point of the perk. The counter is already healing, it doesn’t need more.
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I just wish that when people want her changed that they would have a balanced give and take to her. Most everyone agrees she’s not over powered, just unhealthy design. That would imply changes, not just nerfs, but all everyone ever gives as ideas are straight up nerfs. It makes me take the propositions less seriously. If we’re taking away unhealthy things or adding more counter play that is at the end of the day a nerf to a not too strong killer so we need to be giving her healthy buffs in exchange for those changes to keep her power level at the very least the same.
Before anyone gets to her kill rates they are ridiculously inaccurate. I’ve been tracking my skull merchant games and tracking the rate people give up artificially inflating her kill rates. In 100 games I’ve had over a 60% suicide or dc rate within the first minute of the game or so. That isn’t by my play style or perks, it’s generally as soon as they see me or on the first down.
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It should just return to its last form, its current state is trash. The people saying it was in every game back then is just objectively untrue, it wasn’t even used enough to be “meta”. It was about as popular during its strongest period as penti is used now, seen, but not popular. It wasn’t OP during that time even on plague and legion, it’s best user.
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Yeah there were many perks that gave zero or near enough to zero value in many games, that’s how bad so many are. We need to stop nerfing things and just start buffing the hundreds of bad ones. Most of them don’t even need developer time, they’re as simple as number changes that takes seconds. Increase the durations, lower the cooldowns or remove them entirely ect.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3725928#Comment_3725928
i disagree. flashlights are a terrible waste of time vs a competent killer. the only thing that makes them reasonable to use is background player or 99% sprint burst. It took 200% background player for soloq to start using the perk and a lot of the time, people didn't even use background player for flashlights, they used it for uncounterable which is pallet saves.
I think they used it for significantly more than just pallet saves. I’ve still seen good killers get outplayed on flashlight saves.
Regardless, ignoring the flashlight example my other point remains. I don’t think you need zero base kit counter play to make something good. Many, many things in the game have too much base kit counter play which prevents them from being good, but I think we have different definitions of “reasonable”.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3725920#Comment_3725920
reasonably counterable effects are irrelevant and never get used. For example Jake's base-kit sabotage perk is reasonably counterable. You get hit during Sabo, the perk goes on cooldown. Who uses it? No one. It is just bad.
Nurse calling is reasonable counterable perk on default 32 TR meter killers. Don't heal in TR. Who uses Nurse calling? Do you see this perk in meta builds? Nope. If you do, it is likely on a stealth killer.
As you see, reasonable counterable is often trash/not good enough. Things need to be not counterable to gain consistent value otherwise they just suck. Look at ultimate weapon now vs ultimate weapon before. The current version is so low value on almost every killer that there is no point in playing it. Survivor has no reason to run calm spirit and killer have no reason to bring a ultimate weapon.
I think this is just having a different definition of what we view as “reasonable”. I understand the directions you’re going and I would view those as more than reasonable, not just reasonable.
For example, flashlights have reasonable counter play but can still be good if you play it well.
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I lean towards things in general should all be “reasonably” counter able base kit to at least some degree and perks should just improve on or make the countering easier. Unfortunately I would say based on the way the game is currently the devs feel differently as we have quite a few things that I wouldn’t consider reasonably counterable in the base kit and do require perks. Tunneling and gen speeds come to mind immediately. There is “some” base kit counter play here depending on skill but is it a “reasonably” good amount? Probably not.
Ideally we’d slow gens down at base and make tunneling literally impossible. That would be my ideal there.
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Such great news! Really glad they’re listening to the community on how much we love it. Seems like a lot of us want it to be permanent, myself included. It’s such a refreshing game mode and feels like a casual mode that isn’t so try hard. I’d like if they also made items, addons, and offerings random as well.