Blueberry
Blueberry
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"We still don't see it as skill removed as even if they know the killers
heading for them, they need skill to avoid being seen by the killer,
which direction theyre coming from, and yada yada. Maybe if they relied
on it we'd agree but what we see from survivors and when we're in a SWF
(admittedly our friends are rather more relaxed than some SWFs) its more
of a bonus (supplement?) than outright replacement for skill. But at
this point we think its going to end with our views different."Again, I am not saying it removes all skill, simply that it removes a lot of it. Agree to disagree though that's fine.
"Maybe we're wording it poorly. We're not ignoring the point (well since
the last post at least), our response was that SWFs aren't that much a significant advantage. We do not deny they are and advantage,
but its not like they completely break the game (despite how hard they
try or how much people complain)."We're gonna have to agree to disagree again here then. I 100% disagree with this. SWF is a massive advantage, it is not small at all. They could all run zero perks and I still think it would tilt in their favor, that's how much of an advantage I think SWF is. If you were asking me to play a match as survivor for a million dollars I would take the 4 man swf with no perks over 4 solos with perks every single time. It's not even close.
It's okay if we just disagree.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3725435#Comment_3725435
The first is simply asking if survivors having a lack of information equates to them having skill. [He worded it wrong in the original post] You said: "most of this is all info but I find that irrelevant as the info is removing a ton of skill component." Does having this info give survivors skill?
The second was more clarifying reinforcing the point, which is either being ignored or misunderstood. You as the killer need to force the survivors into making either a mistake or a lose lose situation. That said your correct in that it doesn't address your core point, again phone text is small so might have missed it. W will say SWF isn't some super monster as even they have someone who's the weakest link but that's an us opinion.
We do like our indoor maps~
We're going to have to agree to disagree on that last one.
"The first is simply asking if survivors having a lack of information
equates to them having skill. [He worded it wrong in the original post]
You said: "most of this is all info but I find that irrelevant as the
info is removing a ton of skill component." Does having this info give
survivors skill?"Well it can in a roundabout way that I already kind of explain. Having that extra and unintended information spoon fed to them removes skill component that are things such as situational awareness, memorizing spawns, perk knowledge ect. The information prevents them from having to use skill to gauge that information on their own. It could even be something as simple as listening for the flapping sound of Ghostface about to get the jump on you. That's skill is removed when your swf says, "hey buddy he's heading right for you". Skill removed.
"The second was more clarifying reinforcing the point, which is either
being ignored or misunderstood. You as the killer need to force the
survivors into making either a mistake or a lose lose situation. That
said your correct in that it doesn't address your core point, again
phone text is small so might have missed it. W will say SWF isn't some
super monster as even they have someone who's the weakest link but
that's an us opinion."It's up to the kill to set up for the survivor to make a mistake, but whether the survivor falls for it is up to them. You are reliant on the survivors making mistakes, regardless of how well you play, not the other way around. If both sides play perfectly, you lose as killer. I think you're misunderstanding my point about SWF. I am not saying they are unbeatable or they don't have flaws. IE whether they have a weak link or not is irrelevant to my point. The point is how significant of an unfair advantage it is and how the game isn't balanced for that.
Why do you keep referring to yourself as "we"? Am I talking to two different people?
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3725515#Comment_3725515
Onryo is suppose to be about manipulating the tape item to gain or lose mori potencial. She's inherent meant to be an item-based killer which doesn't exist in her kit. that is how her 1.0 and 2.0 design worked. Now she is just tp spam which is particularly strong on double floor indoor maps. Pig has nothing like this, no tp or items.
Pig is a killer where she puts reverse bear traps on you and she is suppose capitalize off reverse bear traps by ambushing you at jigsaw box locations.
Yes they have macro play but like gameplay is different.
"Onryo is suppose to be about manipulating the tape item to gain or lose
mori potencial. She's inherent meant to be an item-based killer which
doesn't exist in her kit. that is how her 1.0 and 2.0 design worked. Now
she is just tp spam which is particularly strong on double floor indoor
maps. Pig has nothing like this, no tp or items. "Pushing the survivors away from secondary objectives (TV's/Boxes) to push for a hook or mori.
"Pig is a killer where she puts reverse bear traps on you and she is
suppose capitalize off reverse bear traps by ambushing you at jigsaw box
locations. "Which is pressuring survivors off the secondaries (TV's/Boxes) for hooks and mori's.
"Yes they have macro play but like gameplay is different."
That's about as close as you could ever get while still being two different killers.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3725499#Comment_3725499
that is like saying tombstone myer's is the same as Pig. they have radically different design points.
Not really, that's only a mori similarity. Pig and Onryo have very similar macro play.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
i still don't see any similarity behind Onryo or Pig. they have virtually nothing in common besides both having a mori for different purposes. Maybe old pig player got attracted by Onryo. weird.
They're both heavy macro play of juggling a secondary objective for mori's.
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@Flawless_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3725471#Comment_3725471
I’m glad RPD is your favorite map, and you’re certainly entitled to that opinion. However, you’re in the minority and RPD is almost universally considered a poorly designed map. The reasons for that have already been talked about since the map came out so I won’t enumerate them here, but I think it’s fair to say being sent to RPD is a negative experience for the majority of players. Now imagine getting that map 4 times in a row.
The majority of people have a lot of bad takes, maps can be one of them. Opinions are totally fine, but actually saying bad design I disagree. I actually think indoor maps, RPD included, are much healthier design for the game. I would like to actually hear your reasons why you think it's a bad map and have some discourse on the topic.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3725454#Comment_3725454
Same, second only to Midwich. Killer or survivor, these maps are fun and challenging imo.
Yeah those are my 2 favorite maps lol
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This is actually one of my favorite maps on both sides, so I'm happy to see it more.
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I'd put him low B at best. I also personally just don't enjoy playing him though. I find his Weakened doesn't last long enough, and related to this, his misses are overly punishing.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3725253#Comment_3725253
So this is harder to read on a phone so we're going to split it.
When I said removing skill I didn't mean entirely, just that it removes a lot. So while there are some skill components remaining of course, it does remove a lot of the skill. Yes most of this is all info but I find that irrelevant as the info is removing a ton of skill component. So the mechanism of action doesn't really matter if the end result is the same.
Fair enough
The info can be incorrect yes, but that's again just hoping the players are bad and make mistakes. That gets lessened the higher mmr you go, especially if you're picking your team and I don't like things balanced around just hoping my opponent plays bad. I mean I could be like yeah Nurse is fine and easy to beat if they play bad. The survivors gonna be like..okay..and what if she's not? What do I do with that? lol. They could do the scenic route but I feel like that leans more towards impractical and less realistic or reliable. Realistically they've usually got general eyes on you between one of them and then you're also wasting a lot of extra time. It can work, just not really something reliable, especially since you of course don't have eyes on all them so you don't necessarily know where they're watching you.
But does not having info translate to not having skill? The point was you can make them make mistakes as killer. As long as they're human, survivors are capable of messing up which as killer we feel we need to make them do. The scenic route surprisingly works more often than not, admittedly we think it's solely due to people thinking they know everything that is going to happen and can't handle something different.
Depending on the map you may or may not be watched 24/7. Realistically someone probably has the heartbeat on them (unless undetectable) and can call that but eyes are another matter. At least to the point of all the time. As a general rule we always just assume someone is watching and play according (or not, being predictable leaves with less).
"Wasting/Burning up pallets" also isn't really a thing. It's only thing if you have bad teammates that don't know gen efficiency, which you probably aren't having an issue with since you picked your squad. There's in most cases enough pallets that you can have all the gens done before you run out, especially since all the pre dropping has prevented any Pops/PR/Deadmans/Grim ect from activating or them having to waste time rescuing or healing, so you've had no slow down on gens happening at all, just pure gen rush. This is why you see most really good groups pre drop everything in general, regardless of the killer perks, because they know this.
See, the thing is you can absolutely waste pallets even in coordinated swfs. We see people fail at this though because they rely on stacking those 4 perks mentioned. The focus only on "must get down to slowdown gen" without ever bothering to harass anyone else. Drop pallet, break pallet, go harass the next, get pallet, break pallet, repeat. Its an effective cycle on most maps that punishes predropping at the first sign of killer.
As an aside good groups and pre drop don't fit together in our books, but thats an us thing. If we missed something we apologize as again, really hard to make sure we got everything on a phone screen.
"But does not having info translate to not having skill? The point was
you can make them make mistakes as killer. As long as they're human,
survivors are capable of messing up which as killer we feel we need to
make them do. The scenic route surprisingly works more often than not,
admittedly we think it's solely due to people thinking they know
everything that is going to happen and can't handle something different."I'm not sure what your question has to do with what I said if you could clarify.
Yes humans can make mistakes, but picking your swf team drastically lowers that chance. Significantly lower than the rate of mistakes the game is balanced around. Just because SWF can make mistakes, doesn't detract from my core point in this all, which is that it is an extremely large unfair advantage that the game isn't balanced around. The game is balanced around solo queue and getting some teammates that will make mistakes, SWF throws that ratio of weaker links out.
Some small exceptions don't make a rule untrue in other words.
"Depending on the map you may or may not be watched 24/7. Realistically
someone probably has the heartbeat on them (unless undetectable) and can
call that but eyes are another matter. At least to the point of all the
time. As a general rule we always just assume someone is watching and
play according (or not, being predictable leaves with less)."This is why contrary to popular opinion I think indoor maps are some of the healthiest in design. This is because it puts solo and swf on a more even foot since they can't visible see you as well to keep tabs on you and pass it to teammates. This also hinders the hold w game play that is unhealthy for the game as you aren't always sure what direction they are coming from. Most outdoor maps you can see the killer coming a mile away.
"See, the thing is you can absolutely waste pallets even in coordinated
swfs. We see people fail at this though because they rely on stacking
those 4 perks mentioned. The focus only on "must get down to slowdown
gen" without ever bothering to harass anyone else. Drop pallet, break
pallet, go harass the next, get pallet, break pallet, repeat. Its an
effective cycle on most maps that punishes predropping at the first sign
of killer. "I disagree. This is only realistic on certain killers that can get fast hits with anti loop or high map mobility. This generally does not apply to m1 killers which are a large subset of the killer options.
If pre dropping isn't working then the group is generally speaking slacking on gen focus or it's one of the higher end killers. I'm generally referencing this thought process assuming a standard m1 killer as that's more often the rule than the exception.
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@100PercentBPMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3725289#Comment_3725289
I likewhat you're trying on Onryo, I think it's a very viable strategy for her, Pig and Pinhead. I personally use Pinhead myself.
I forget how long it takes to cleanse a totem off the top of my head(12s? 16?s) but either way, when I run hex perks I consider them to be, at minimum, worth a quarter minute's value each. Ain't a lot, but it's at least something lol
I could definitely see it working on Pinhead as well. Essentially any killer that has base kit secondary objectives for survivors that they already have to manage, so Condemn, Traps, Box, ect. Pinhead is especially nasty with it as the chains can interrupt the totems a lot and he can interrupt from a range with a long distance chain snipe.
Yeah I'd probably say a quarter of a gen in the worse case scenario typically with potential for significantly more.
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@this_aint_h00die said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3725289#Comment_3725289
hm, i would say otherwise simply because i try my hardest to avoid hex perks due to the high risk, but i've only recently found out about the existence of Penti
Hexes are generally very bad I agree. Penti is a very underrated perk that makes them a good bit better though. Hardly anyone uses it either.
The trick is to only light one at a time, even if you could do multiple. This is because it makes everyone go back and check the totems they cleansed so they will end up also checking ones you didn't light. This scenario then repeats each time they break one and you light another. It ends up making them waste a lot more time than if you lit them all as soon as you could. You forfeit the higher tier Penti effects but it doesn't matter as the repair slow is the most important one. People think of just the slow down the perk applies but you also make them waste a ton of time crossing the map, looking for the totem and the cleanse time. Sometimes you get even more value because the person that broke one can't cleanse because they're in chase, dead, healing or on hook so people are running around looking. It's more slow down than it looks at face value is my point. Also with Onryo you are teleporting around so you waste very little time lighting them than say something like Pig would.
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If the killer tunnels/camps yeah it's not good, but if they don't it's a really good experience without slow downs and trying new perks. It also feel nice on killer not having to eat through second chance, after second chance, after second chance, x4. When I actually outplay someone I get the down every time for once. It feels so cringe on killer when every survivor has like 6 health states and my outplays aren't rewarded.
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I don't know about best for Onryo, but I like piling on the secondary objectives for them to make it difficult to juggle everything at once. It gets overwhelming for them.
I'm currently at a 97.7% (roughly) win rate ( only 7 losses out of 302 games) all using the perks Devour, Undying, Haunted, and Penti.
With that win rate I'd say there's at least something good going on there. Haven't seen anyone else running this, just thought of it myself. Hexes are generally pretty bad, but I just think it has some good synergy with Onryo and I like how it goes off-meta. Haunted is probably the weakest in the list if you wanted to swap something out. I'd keep it another hex though for Penti sake. I don't think Penti is worth it unless you have at least 3 hexes minimum, so you have to fully commit to the hex setup or bail out of it entirely.
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I agree and I'd like those changes as well. Doesn't fix the tunnel/camp part though unfortunately.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3725217#Comment_3725217
Fair, but to us thats just info. They still have to sneak in and break any totems called, will end up burning all the pallets by predropping and not looping atleast a little spirit fury or no, knowing not to get off gens because of deliverance is just info (which would be nice to see on hud). They do still need to pay attention as called out info can be incorrect, ex we hook someone go one direction then take the scenic route to surprise another area.
{Apologies if we maybe rambling but we're currently very bored}
I probably should've been more specific on my wording. When I said removing skill I didn't mean entirely, just that it removes a lot. So while there are some skill components remaining of course, it does remove a lot of the skill. Yes most of this is all info but I find that irrelevant as the info is removing a ton of skill component. So the mechanism of action doesn't really matter if the end result is the same. The info can be incorrect yes, but that's again just hoping the players are bad and make mistakes. That gets lessened the higher mmr you go, especially if you're picking your team and I don't like things balanced around just hoping my opponent plays bad. I mean I could be like yeah Nurse is fine and easy to beat if they play bad. The survivors gonna be like..okay..and what if she's not? What do I do with that? lol. They could do the scenic route but I feel like that leans more towards impractical and less realistic or reliable. Realistically they've usually got general eyes on you between one of them and then you're also wasting a lot of extra time. It can work, just not really something reliable, especially since you of course don't have eyes on all them so you don't necessarily know where they're watching you. So scenic route could actually be right where they're watching you. "Wasting/Burning up pallets" also isn't really a thing. It's only thing if you have bad teammates that don't know gen efficiency, which you probably aren't having an issue with since you picked your squad. There's in most cases enough pallets that you can have all the gens done before you run out, especially since all the pre dropping has prevented any Pops/PR/Deadmans/Grim ect from activating or them having to waste time rescuing or healing, so you've had no slow down on gens happening at all, just pure gen rush. This is why you see most really good groups pre drop everything in general, regardless of the killer perks, because they know this.
I don't mind rambling, I do it all the time on here lol
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3725210#Comment_3725210
Out of curiosity, how does SWFs remove individual skill? How we see it, while SWFs can give critical information, being in one doesn't magically make survivors better if they don't know how to use it.
They don't have to be better and know how to use something as simple as, "he left me and is heading straight for you", "his hex is in shack", "I've got deliverance just sit on the gens", "pre drop, he has Spirit Fury", ect, ect. I could go on.
Simply spoonfuls of game information that they wouldn't know otherwise. Most of it does not require skill to utilize. A lot of it however does remove skill as it takes away their need for as much situational awareness of killers coming, perks catching them off guard and not playing around something potentially being in play, macro knowledge of who should/is doing what and how they should react on that, ect.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3725210#Comment_3725210
Gotcha. I believe the mindset between us is slightly different from what we want from the game. I understand your view and tbh, its probably a lot more healthy than mine, which is I -JUST- want to be chased. I developed a series of hives and rashes whenever I stay on a gen for too long lol.
I know the holes I need to shore up in my play if I wanted to rank up and start winning. Its just hard with the state of the game for me. Not sure if this is widespread, or if it is just me.
Yeah and that's totally understandable. Different people play games for different things. That's one of the challenges for developers. Possibly a good reason for a ranked/unranked to separate and give both players somewhere they can play for what they're looking for.
The SWF issue for the average player probably isn't much of an issue as those players are more casual and still make tons of mistakes that you being good can outdo. However once we start getting to tippy top mmr matches it starts to fall apart as you don't have much higher you can go to outplay that advantage. I know people like to hate on "I play at high mmr" but the matches do happen regularly. You watch my stream so you've seen my matches, there are more sweaty swf matches than casual ones, so they're much more common than people on the forums like to pretend. I think it's because many of them don't actually play at that mmr. I also don't see how I could be assuming incorrectly on "high mmr" either when even just on Onryo I've only lost 7 games out of 302 matches since I decided to start collecting the data. If that wouldn't get someone to high mmr idk what would.
That's why it's hard to have conversations about the issue of SWF and high mmr balance to people who don't play there because if the person doesn't play in it, then it's not going to seem like an issue at all, and at the end of the day everyone's just assuming their mmr.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3725125#Comment_3725125
This doesn't sound too bad really. Last sec switching is dealt with also, so killers cant say 'Well, if we cant dodge, you can't use the W key in trial. its only fair compensation."
lol Im kidding ofc. We love our killer mains. :)
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3724909#Comment_3724909
I understand this reasoning, and it makes sense lol. Im sure Im an outlier, but those games with a team that seem to just be in the right place at the right time… I dunno, its rare but its a delight when it happens. I get challenged and its usually good chats in the EGChat. Dodging would just make me feel like I didn't believe in myself or some mushy crap like that lol.
I need more KYF in customs I think. Its always 400% more fun and better energy.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3724887#Comment_3724887
Back to topic though! This line here is another reason lobby dodging should go. I would -assume- survivors killing themselves on hook immediately would go down considerably if they could also lobby dodge.
But they can't. And to quote almost every killer I've had 'discussions' with on here: 'Thats not fair!'
I'm pretty sure 'fair and balanced' is one of those 'eye of the beholder' things. Everyone has their own definition. Lobby dodging should go as well as survivor switching last sec. Imo.
It's true that the interactions can be more enjoyable. My focus on the game is fair matches, skill expression and the better player winning because I take games competitively. To me SWF messes with this. Since the game isn't balanced for SWF I can play significantly better than them and still lose from all the unintended advantages SWF provides. It removes individual skill from the game. The better player losing I find frustrating. This is the same reason I dislike styptics, syringes, BNP's, tunneling, camping, or NOED. They also can remove skill from the game and allow a player objectively playing worse to still win the game instead of the better player. Not saying this is always the case, but many times it is.
This causes games where this side has SWF/styptics/syringes/BNP and that side is tunneling/camping/NOED ect and it leaves both sides doing/using things that remove skill and balance from the game. It's a similar reason I dislike comp as it typically dulls the game down to both sides playing in the most boring and least skill expressive way possible.
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Same! I've subscribed to that thing multiple times and never received a BP code.
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They are so, so annoying. They cover up the aura reads so much.
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Yeah the rift bonus feels like a dud for me since I've already had it done. Wish it converted into extra bloodpoints if we're done.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3724878#Comment_3724878
yes i agree. it is also the fact that you can't get tracking unless survivor stands on top of a portal and you need like hold m2 to do this. it is just awkward. Increasing m/s for holding shred does not need seem like the play.
Yeah his shred is fine. I agree with you on the other points as well.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
One is related to player throwing
during a gameand the other is people trying to game the MMRbefore the game even startsThese are so vaguely related you might as well mention Meta slaving, tunneling or 4bnp comp squads. You will almost never know if a killer lobby shopped but you will almost always know a survivor threw.I know he asked you to elaborate but I thought he was joking lol. Thats on me. Regardless, one of these two is very much worse than the other. Throwing -IN- the game sucks and there's no real winner except the killer. They'll still get their 3-4k and move on, a bit unaffected. The remaining survivors.. ah who cares. Thats the gist I get from a lot of killers on here.
Lobby shopping should go away since we have killers learning the game via streamers, and we know how terrible that's been. Killers should fight the fight given by the Entity and learn to win and lose. If someone loses a game, its to the forums with pitchforks, omg! Nerf nerf nerf
Ugh.. this feels like a waste of time. Moving on.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3724518#Comment_3724518
Right. This is why lobby shopping should go. Literally. Appreciate the most apt example I could have given.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3724551#Comment_3724551
You have me curious as to what these other reasons might be. Those reasons could be the majority. When queueing up as killer, I load into the lobby, see whats there, and that's when people will decide if they are dodging or not.
The only stimulus is see in dodging a lobby is looking at the survivors and making a decision. Thats based on Prestige, items, 4 clone group, etc. Its all based on the survivors in the lobby. If I'm missing something please let me know, I really want to at least move more to the center on this lol. But I just can't logic it out.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3724858#Comment_3724858
I used to have that faith. The internet is a strange place sometimes, but a few things are static: People are real #%& when they can't be held accountable lol. Faith no more.
If they just dodge because of items, prestige, ect then that's just dodging for an easy game and is entitlement. However, them dodging because it's a 4 man swf I view as just them wanting a fair and balanced game. The community at large generally agrees the game is not balanced around swf, so that would be an unfair advantage and not a balanced game. I'm not condoning dodging any lobbies and I don't do it myself, I'm just pointing out another reason people dodge other than wanting easy games or entitlement.
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This is actually a very common problem that happens a lot and needs addressing.
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I just think they need to make the debuffs/oblivious on the portals reach a large area, like 12meters. They’re in this awkward spot where you want them to debuff the survivors with oblivious or whatever addon effect you’re running but for that it needs to be right on top of the gen. However this also ruins the surprise of teleports. Another huge issue is his Undetectable after teleport being ruined by the fact of how loud his footsteps are, it kinda defeats the point. I’m generally okay with his shred and pallet break right now, it’s his portals and map traversal that have problems.
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I think they just need to give some buffs to the weaker m1 killers similar to what they did for Bubba and Slinger.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3724532#Comment_3724532
I don't necessarily think that's a SWF problem. Just a balance issue with the map. That same problem can happen with 4 good solos. It's just rare with the way matchmaking works.
I agree maps are one of if not the biggest problem, but the swf is still a massive advantage the game isn't balanced for even on a map that doesn't have abusable spots. If it was just maps as you're saying that wouldn't be the case. Like let's take Wreckers or Coal which are generally considered by most people to be the more balanced maps, swf is still a problem there. A significantly lesser degree, but still a problem. We've also seen by their track record that even if it was maps as the main issue over swf that maps aren't getting fixed in a way to fix that problem any time soon.
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Facts. Map of the Realm and Call to Arms needs to be base kit. Even then the rest of his addons are still so, so bad.
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@this_aint_h00die said:
^ I totally agree, it's just that I like the high risk, high reward of her, how shes a not a popular killer makes me want to play her more (tired of survivors complaining of overuse), using her is like using Distressing, but actually lucrative, and her ambush feels like a hybrid of billy and Wesker, on top of that, getting kills with her head traps are super satisfying
Yeah I have the same mind set. I don't like playing anything that's popular. That's one of the reasons I like Onryo, as well as that I enjoy more macro oriented killers rather than micro. Most killers these days are pushed heavily into the micro play. I just don't enjoy anti loop killers in general as the play style is all the same. She's also a completely different play style than most killers who on average I think play pretty similar. She's better than people think as well.
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@WolfyWood said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3724511#Comment_3724511
But would you agree that the mindset is the same?
And with that, they are linked in that if you condemn one you must condemn the other and both have to be removed together or neither should.
This is effectively the crux of my argument.
I agree they should both be removed but I disagree on them being the same mindset and therefor not linked. I think there's more reasons for lobby shopping than there are reasons for rage quitting games.
If the vast majority of dodges were simply because "i want an easy game where I win", "entitlement" if you will. Then yeah I'd agree. However I don't agree because I don't think that's the majority. A lot, sure, but majority, no. If you think that is the majority though then I can see why you feel this way as if I thought that I'd agree as well.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/414941/do-you-think-survivors-swf-need-nerf
You we're against a good tream and got a hell of a great game, it sounds like. Games where my BPressure goes up can be thrilling and why I play. I'd have loved to go against that team you found. I dont understand why people complain about 'good and fair games'. Do you really only want to stomp stomp stomp? What a boring view.
Also, even if you could hypothetically get solo to swf level this is all under the assumption that they would buff killer to swf level…which is a stretch in itself, much less how ridiculously long that would take based on the games track record.
This part stuck out and had me think for a moment. Buuut… and Im probably gonna get pushback lol. But what killers aren't up to task to take on SWFS? M1 killers always get talked about as being the weakest group of killers. I'd like to know if there are killers that are SWF level and good to take them on? I've not run into a lot of seal team 6's, but its usually an easy tell if the team is on comms or not. And I've yet to encounter a 'omg I just got STOMPED'. Not indicative of anything I suppose as Ive no idea my MMR. I assume its the usual: Nurse, Blight, Spirit, etc.
But I play Trapper. Only Trapper. And I do quite well. Maybe I need to do some customs with some friends and just see how tough it can be. This sounds like fun actually lol
The idea is you have 4 modes of play:
- Ranked mode
- This mode is only for killers and 4 man SWF
- Casual Mode
- This mode is the current mode we have now, but you are unable to play as a SWF of more than a duo. And each match can only have 1 duo and 2 other solos, or just 4 solos. It should not be possible to have multiple duos.
- Modifier Mode
- These are where the fun modifiers go.
- Custom Match
- Current custom match parameters
I love this idea. Needs tweaking as 2-3-4 man SWFS still need to be able to rank if they desire. But man a ranked queue sounds amazing for the game. Too many people want to just play to have fun and can't get that due to tunneling/camping/killers/repeat/toss in some survivor shenanigans (yes bias lol). Separate modes could fix that instead of only being able to go to customs.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3724431#Comment_3724431
Am I mistaken? I probably am. But was this a post to talk about balance when you were in… a chaos shuffle modifier? I just need clarification on whether to take this post serious or disregard as trolling. Ty!
"Up to the task" would be like going up against very good players, it's a challenge, that's a good thing. I think most people would be fine with that "up to the task".
SWF isn't just a good player, SWF is like saying let's have a boxing match but you get one hand tied behind your back. That's not just a "challenging" match, it's an unfair match. Challenge is good, unfair is not. We say unfair because the game is pretty unanimously agreed on by most the player base to not be balanced around SWF.
This would be like asking survivors if they want to face a killer that's using wall hacks. It's a challenge right? Who doesn't want a challenge? Except the survivors wouldn't like that because it's not just a challenge, it's unfair.
Fair chance against a 4 man SWF would probably be like Nurse, Blight and maybe Spirit. Even most A tier killers it still tilts into unfair, much less all the B tier and below where it's ridiculously unfair.
- Ranked mode
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@[Deleted User] said:
I don't think survivors are necessarily overpowered. The problems have more to do with maps and matchmaking randomness.
Too many maps still have overpowered structures while also not being expendable resources. Dead Dawg main, Mother's Dwelling main, Badham 2 story and main, Garden of Joy main, Lerys office that nobody knows how to run correctly, etc. You're usually not going to run into 4 survivors who all know how to run those types of structures and run there every chase, but it you do, it's somewhat game breaking. There's really no reason for those structures to be that powerful. A bad survivor won't get value out of them, but they're too strong in the hands of a good player, especially against your M1 roster. I have well north of a 50% solo escape rate, and my playstyle is run Overcome>tank hit>run to busted structure.
The second problem is that killer choice and loadout really changes based on opponent skill, but you have no way of knowing what you're about to face. Trapper is one of my mains. It's actually more effective for me to play man with machete on many maps against survivors with thousands of hours. A less experienced player wouldn't know that. If I knew I was going to play against a top tier SWF with an M1 killer, I'm probably taking Forced Penance and fewer slowdowns, because getting downs will be the main challenge, not gen speeds. If it's your run of the mill solo team? Just run whatever.
I agree with this. Although you don't mention swf as one of the balance problems your explanations elude to it.
" You're usually not going to run into 4 survivors who all know how to
run those types of structures and run there every chase, but it you do,
it's somewhat game breaking. "Per that.
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Not saying lobby shopping should be a thing, it shouldn't, but those are very different degrees of problematic. Lobby shopping is a little more queue time but realistically not that significant, I barely even notice it. Throwing in game is wasting everyone's time significantly and giving them a bad experience. Much worse and more problematic than lobby shopping.
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The same way you counter flash lights, which is checking the area around before pick up. There's counter play.
What does not have counter play is Background Player. With that it's unrealistic to check the area and with a Flashbang you can't even look at a wall to avoid it..if you even have a wall.
The problem is Background Player not having counter play, not as much Flashbang.
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Think of Pig kinda like Onryo if you didn't have a teleport and couldn't see her TV's but you're still trying to micro manage them from dropping tapes or picking them up by memorizing all the TV spawn points on every single map since they aren't shown to you. Would that be doable? Yeah, kinda. Is it practical or realistic? Not really.
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They're both very similar play style in what you're doing. I would say they were closer to being comparable pre her "buff" (nerf actually), which really hurt the macro game play that made her unique and fun as well as what made her similar to Onryo. You can still do that play style on Pig but it's much harder as memorizing every box spawn on every single map is a little impractical and unrealistic. It's more just a background passive slow down now which adds nothing to her enjoyment. You got a better anti loop but better doesn't mean good, it's still trash the majority of the time.
Even with those bad changes Pig is probably the closest of other killers to Onryo if you like that game play.
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3724178#Comment_3724178
I didn't actually camp in endgame until they opened gates as it would not work agains't them I kept pressuring them and got them all injured and 2 down eventually but couldn't found where the last 2 were healing but that was after they had used pretty much all recourses and they could not bodyblock anymore. Technically 8 hook state as the one I got died to second hook. I wish I had some endgame perks like noed/no way out but this was in chaos shuffle mode.
I'm more so referencing most matches than yours in particular. Most hooks/kills after the gates are powered are things usually not related to skill such as camping at the hooked guy or the entire team diving for the save because they want everyone out and either throwing the game there or doubling the killers hooks/kills from said play. Not saying there aren't skilled hooks/kills in end game, but just simply that the majority of them usually aren't and they make the end result of hooks/kills imply the game was much more close than it actually was.
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@Zakon05 said:
Look, there's really no nice way to say this. If you think that rework Sadako was fine and that she sucks now, you were being carried by how ridiculously strong she was against 90% of survivors in this game. You're asking to bring it back for the same reason survivors wish they could bring back all of their old stupid broken garbage like old Dead Hard and Circle of Healing. I feel very passionately about this because she's gone from one of my favorite killers to most hated killers to one of my favorites again.
Rework Sadako is one of the worst designs they have ever made. She was extremely flowcharty and braindead. You just spammed teleport to stack condemn on people. If you had the Mother's Comb, you got notified any time a survivor interacted with a TV, so you knew where they were and where to go to slap it out of their hands.
Her gameplay basically involved just picking one survivor and harassing them to make sure they can never interact with TVs while building condemned on them. Unless they weren't an absolutely cracked survivor, they were eventually going to make a mistake and go down and then die. Do this early enough and you could basically play the rest of the match without using your power at all, a 3v1 is an extremely hard for survivors to play against.
Survivors couldn't get tapes from TVs which were turned off, and they were always turned off because of how much she was teleport spamming. Survivors also can't see the auras of TVs like she can, so they had to just wander around the map to find one which wasn't turned off to get a tape, all while she's building condemn on them from her teleport spamming. Then they got a tape, she gets told where they are if she's running Mother's Comb or if she's just paying attention and notices a TV turn off by itself, then she runs over to hit them and there's a good chance they could be mori'ed right after that since destroying the tape built condemn.
She took significantly more effort to play against than to play as, especially since she herself had a low skill ceiling and skill floor. She had nothing other than flicker mindgames as a mechanic to get good with because of how much her macro game played itself for you. Go watch that video Otzdarva posted where he literally wins while playing one-handed because of how little effort it took.
Yet for all of this, she was terrible against great survivors who could actually loop you and were efficient with generators, since all they needed to do was hold a tape to be protected while they rushed gens and the member of their team she was targeting to keep from interacting with TVs threw every pallet on the map to delay her as long as possible. After a point she had no choice but to keep committing, because she had no condemn built on anybody else.
Before her rework she was one of my highest prestige killers at that time. I straight up abandoned her because I hated subjecting people to what an unfun experience it was to play against her. Meanwhile if you ever got a good survivor team, it was miserable in the opposite direction.
Sadako now, by comparison, is an excellently designed killer and likely the best designed macro play killer in the game. Building condemn is once again something the Sadako must put effort into, and survivors actually need to care about it. She takes effort and thought to play as and to play against. But the fact it takes effort and thought to play as her now makes me unsurprised that people who really liked the easy braindead version think she's useless.
"Look, there's really no nice way to say this. If you think that rework
Sadako was fine and that she sucks now, you were being carried by how
ridiculously strong she was against 90% of survivors in this game."You realize people can take this exact statement and just turn it into…
"Look, there's really no nice way to say this. If you think that rework
Sadako was bad design and that she's great now, you are being carried by how
ridiculously weak she is against 90% of survivors in this game."It's a statement that says literally nothing in either version. People could just as easily say you like Sadako now because it makes people think they're better than they are because it gives them free wins against her. Sadako counter play now is literal flow chart spoon feed. TV's are lit up for you and heard, holding a tape has zero negative, and even the drop off is so fast you can do it mid chase. To do well with her current design you rely on people playing bad or not knowing what they're doing. There are a lot of people like that in the game which can give a false perspective of how strong she is and make people think she's in a good state.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3724178#Comment_3724178
Your most common answer you're gonna get is "buff solo to swf level". The issue with this is that is never going to happen and is an unrealistic goal. The main problem with solo queue is people being bad at the game and poor matchmaking.
this is not what the player means when they say buff soloq to swf-level". what buffing soloq to swf-level is all about is giving the player equal opportunity to be as effective in soloq as in a SWF.
here is example:
Window of opportunity is a perk that grants ability for survivor to see pallet aura's. When a teammate drops a pallet and killer breaks the pallet. that pallet is no longer there. a soloq player cannot predict precisely where every single pallet has been broken. As a result, they may run into dead-zones when they get chased by the killer.
A swf on voice can just arbitrary say/use clock calls out for what pallets have been broken. as a result, they are less likely to run into dead-zones.
Suppose soloq could see when a pallet is dropped with a red aura. This would give player a opportunity to identify potencial dead-zones created by teammates. This does not mean that player will not go into dead-zones. It just gives them equal opportunity for them TO NOT go into dead-zones as SWF.
Bond is a perk that grants ability to see aura of teammates in 36 meter radius. When a survivor is in the chase, they would like to loop away from their teammates so that their teammates can safely work generator uninterrupted. SWF can call out where they're being chased to avoid running into teammates.
What if a survivor that is in the chase could see yellow generator aura's. This would allow them to avoid their teammates that are on potencial generators. Again, this does not mean that the survivor player will optimally loop to not run into teammates but it gives survivor the opportunity to make correct play.
Healing is another complicated action that is difficult to optimize in soloq. Part of the reason is that knowing where your teammates are vs hit & run can be challenge when you are constantly being split up and pressured. What if survivor could ping a healing location. Again, this does not mean that soloq survivor will suddenly be optimized healing but it gives opportunity for soloq to optimize healing.
DBD is not meant to balance bad players. it is meant give opportunity for the survivor to play well. Ideally just seeing the teammate aura would fix most of soloq's disparity issues. In my opinion, DBD almost wants this disparity SWF/Soloq teamwork ethic to occur as there has not been much or any attempts to improve it.
I understand what people mean when they say that. What you’ve pointed out doesn’t detract from my base point. Countering the advantage given by swf is far more practical and realistic than trying to give those same tools to solo which isn’t even going to fix the problem anyway.
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@JeanGreyarea said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3724178#Comment_3724178
“This answer to me is the most practical and logical but it's also disliked by most people.” It’s disliked because it’s not a good idea.
Or it’s not and people just like having the advantage.
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deleted. Mistype.
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I'm hoping for something going on with blood. I'm expecting a mobility power related to turning into bats since we saw that in the teaser. Ideally I'd like if he was a stealth killer with more macro play and not another anti loop one. We have really had much in terms of stealth killers for quite a while.
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Well first I think people shouldn't be referencing "well you got 7 hooks". In reality you got 4 before gates powered. 3 more hooks at end game when you have nothing to do but stand at the hook isn't really a measure of balance, it's just some default freebies at the end. The game balance is generally measured better in how well you do during the 5 gens. So 4 hooks is what we're looking at for balance. This is one of those cases where people are too focused on end result rather than what the purpose of looking at those hooks is, which is balance. Hooks that don't measure balance aren't important for what we're looking at.
The answer you get here is gonna depend on the persons view of the game. Your most common answer you're gonna get is "buff solo to swf level". The issue with this is that is never going to happen and is an unrealistic goal. The main problem with solo queue is people being bad at the game and poor matchmaking. It's not a balance problem. You can't fix bad people with balance changes and matchmaking is forced to be bad because of how poorly the game is balanced. The poor matchmaking covers up the games problems. Also, even if you could hypothetically get solo to swf level this is all under the assumption that they would buff killer to swf level…which is a stretch in itself, much less how ridiculously long that would take based on the games track record. So while this is the most popular answer you'll get I think it's a utopian type view point that isn't realistic to happen and even if it did would take yearsssss.
The significantly more practical answer would be a simple action debuff on swf. Easy to do and fast to implement. This would better bring swf to solo level. Before people get to it, no, it's not punishing people for playing with friends, it's simply equalizing the advantage they are getting. Even if it's "just buddies having a match and messing around, nothing sweat", still, that is a massive advantage even with a casual and chill mindset. This answer to me is the most practical and logical but it's also disliked by most people.
There's also the third option though which is a separate ranked/unranked queue to solve the problem.
Of course if people don't play killer at a higher level they aren't going to think swf is a problem at all since they aren't experiencing the problem themselves.
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Probably Wraith.
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Her phasing is desynced between what you see and what the survivors see and the duration of her disappearance also isn’t lasting as long as it’s supposed to (roughly .8 instead of 1.2). Both bugs have been acknowledged in the bug forum and are being looked into, no ETA yet.
She has a “stealth” that is basically non existent since it has a lullaby that tells them when you’re near and it’s even directional for that matter.
Surprise teleports don’t actually work because it’s again, directional, as well as showing you all the TV auras so there’s no chance for catching them off guard.
No difficulty in finding TVs for tapes as they’re all lit up for you.
No negative to holding tapes.
No longer realistic counter play to preventing survivors from dropping off tapes and removing condemn since they can drop off at off TVs and hits no longer destroy tapes.
They can completely turn off your power and map mobility by just walking around turning off all your TVs. It’s again the issue many killers suffer from which is survivors controlling your power more than you do. They decide if you get to use it.
Since hits don’t destroy tapes anymore and the tape drop of animation is so fast they can drop the tapes off at the TV right in your face preventing the stack lock in or the condemn.
The lock in limit per hook is so pitiful that it makes many Onryos just slug because the incentive isn’t good enough. Lock in condemn at one hook is the only thing that matters because once you’ve hooked them twice the condemn is now completely irrelevant since they’re dead on hook anyway. You also aren’t saving hook time on that condemn either since you probably wasted more time condemning them than that condemn kill saved.
Many, many bad addons and addons that functioned based on her old kit but were never updated with her rework so they just don’t make sense anymore.
I do very well with her but it’s because of people playing bad, not respecting her condemn or not knowing what to do, not because of her strength. She relies on bad players to do well.
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This is going to be a disaster of a change. There’s no counter play to a Background Player toolbox sabo. It’s just a forced hook deny and is going to encourage the exact slugging plays that survivors don’t want.
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He just needs his smaller TR back since he’s 110%.
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It’s an entitlement issue. People tend to vastly exaggerate how many games are unwinnable. The giving up and DC’ing problem is out of control. Almost 50% of my survivor matches have someone do this within the first minute of the match. Remove the struggle phase on second hook and remove the unhook attempts unless they’re running a perk that allows it. Maybe even increase the DC penalty. Something needs to be done.
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Nemesis needs buffs, not nerfs.