Archol123
Archol123
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@Gandor said:
@Archol123 you are not even really correct. Yes. Killer's ping does not even out with survivor's ping. It's way worse then what you wrote.
@Devil_hit11 I will explain to you why you are absolutely not correct about ping evening out between killer and survivor.
The reason being, that actual killer hits are defined by what killer sees. This is the reason, why huntress can hit you behind the corner or wesker can grab you thru the window even if you left it for several meters etc or any other killer can hit you with M1 even after you vaulted that window and made 5 steps away from it (this can be really felt on really bad killer pings). For this reason, killer's (and also survivor's) ping does not matter to killer, but it does matter to survivor. He will get information about killer trying to aim at him only once the packet about this action arrives to survivor (so this is again same reason why some horrible-ping killers (say 300+ms) can shoot you without ever aiming at you or nemesis using his tentacles without ever charging it and so on). For these reasons killer has time buffer of killer ping + survivor ping to actually hit survivor.
To show an example. Say 115% killer (e.g. trapper) and survivor are at some short wall with pallet. Killer has 100ms ping and survivor 50ms ping. Survivor is standing next to pallet and waiting for killer to react to him. Once killer decides to move one direction, survivor will see this movement only after 100ms - meaning killer's position is already about 0,415m closer to survivor then what he sees. Now there's some reaction time (this is smaller then your 200-300ms, because when you expect this situation - then you are more aware and can react sooner - say 50ms, but I don't know exact average human reaction number) until survivor starts to move + 50ms until this information arrives to killer and updates survivor's position on his screen. This in fact results in 100ms+50ms+50ms = 200ms survivor "not moving at all" time out of which 150ms is just network slowdown. For this reason killer can be 0,83m away before survivor even starts to move in some direction.
If the game was changed to be "server based" for hits (same way as other online games work), then all the hits would be evaluated only on server. This means that killer with 100ms ping would have much harder time now, because survivor's position would be 0,4m different to what he would see. This would also result in killer seeing that he hit that survivor but game actually telling him he did not hit him. On the other hand, survivors would not get just barely hit (in this specific example) when 100ms+50ms outside of hit zone (or 0,415+0,2m = 0,615m when in safety), but only 50ms outside it (or 0,2m when in safety on their display). This would overall feel much better on survivors and would eliminate reason why some killers play with VPN connected to some distant server (like European killer playing in US or in Asia to have easier time). The better the ping, the better the experience for both sides.
I think I read somewhere that the fastest reaction time ever recorded was around 120ms, average human reaction time being around 200-300ms. This is all already in consideration that the person knows that something is about to happen, if the person gets taken by surprise it is far longer.
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@Gandor said:
@Archol123 you are not even really correct. Yes. Killer's ping does not even out with survivor's ping. It's way worse then what you wrote.
@Devil_hit11 I will explain to you why you are absolutely not correct about ping evening out between killer and survivor.
The reason being, that actual killer hits are defined by what killer sees. This is the reason, why huntress can hit you behind the corner or wesker can grab you thru the window even if you left it for several meters etc or any other killer can hit you with M1 even after you vaulted that window and made 5 steps away from it (this can be really felt on really bad killer pings). For this reason, killer's (and also survivor's) ping does not matter to killer, but it does matter to survivor. He will get information about killer trying to aim at him only once the packet about this action arrives to survivor (so this is again same reason why some horrible-ping killers (say 300+ms) can shoot you without ever aiming at you or nemesis using his tentacles without ever charging it and so on). For these reasons killer has time buffer of killer ping + survivor ping to actually hit survivor.
To show an example. Say 115% killer (e.g. trapper) and survivor are at some short wall with pallet. Killer has 100ms ping and survivor 50ms ping. Survivor is standing next to pallet and waiting for killer to react to him. Once killer decides to move one direction, survivor will see this movement only after 100ms - meaning killer's position is already about 0,415m closer to survivor then what he sees. Now there's some reaction time (this is smaller then your 200-300ms, because when you expect this situation - then you are more aware and can react sooner - say 50ms, but I don't know exact average human reaction number) until survivor starts to move + 50ms until this information arrives to killer and updates survivor's position on his screen. This in fact results in 100ms+50ms+50ms = 200ms survivor "not moving at all" time out of which 150ms is just network slowdown. For this reason killer can be 0,83m away before survivor even starts to move in some direction.
If the game was changed to be "server based" for hits (same way as other online games work), then all the hits would be evaluated only on server. This means that killer with 100ms ping would have much harder time now, because survivor's position would be 0,4m different to what he would see. This would also result in killer seeing that he hit that survivor but game actually telling him he did not hit him. On the other hand, survivors would not get just barely hit (in this specific example) when 100ms+50ms outside of hit zone (or 0,415+0,2m = 0,615m when in safety), but only 50ms outside it (or 0,2m when in safety on their display). This would overall feel much better on survivors and would eliminate reason why some killers play with VPN connected to some distant server (like European killer playing in US or in Asia to have easier time). The better the ping, the better the experience for both sides.
I thought the missing animation was just a visual bug and not a high ping issue?
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3296256#Comment_3296256
more ping = easier to react to because each action has cumulative delay due to latency though some games allow you to queue actions, not sure about dbd because DBD is fps game. For example, before nurse's rework, you had to blink then press m1 manually to m1 out of a blink and if you press m1 too early, you would skip your m1, but post nurse's rework, you can queue a blink and m1 attack. I do not think you can do with deathslinger because he aim first then you need to fire. The result is more ping means you will get delay for pressing aim down sight then pressing the fire gun action leading to overall more time to see incoming shot. it would be easier to react to the gun if you had Mcdonald wifi connection.
I don't know about the grabs, because then you turn it into a loose loose situation for the survivor.
No you cannot?? Based on reaction time + ping that is more than the travel distance, it is physically impossible to dodge that thin??
In summary, The two reasons why slinger got changed is because lesser skilled players complained about lose/lose situations that did not exist(they were just making bad reads on when he is going to shoot). The other reason is lesser skilled players like you believe that is gun is unreactable and if the deathslinger had good aim, he always hits his shot while better player understood how to hold-w and make distance on a 110% m/s to outplay his gun. DBD always balances killer off bad players, so there is nothing to more to talk about regarding slinger. He will remain as unfun killer to play until his changes are reverted which is unlikely given this conversation. Just because your bad at versing him does not mean that everyone is bad vs ranged killers.
That example does not really fit... When Nurse blinks and before she hits there needs to be player input... But with slinger it is different since as soon as his gun is ads you get no more Intel when he is about to shoot. The reaction time is only between him shooting and the projectile hitting you... And you simply cannot react to that... Below 8-9m it is physically impossible and it is fairly obvious if you understand what reaction time and projectile speed indicate... That's the point where you could not even crouch dodge a shot that's aimed at your chest. And if you are not able to understand that the laws of physics do not care about you not understanding them but still apply then I cannot help you.
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@Gandor said:
@Archol123 you are not even really correct. Yes. Killer's ping does not even out with survivor's ping. It's way worse then what you wrote.
@Devil_hit11 I will explain to you why you are absolutely not correct about ping evening out between killer and survivor.
The reason being, that actual killer hits are defined by what killer sees. This is the reason, why huntress can hit you behind the corner or wesker can grab you thru the window even if you left it for several meters etc or any other killer can hit you with M1 even after you vaulted that window and made 5 steps away from it (this can be really felt on really bad killer pings). For this reason, killer's (and also survivor's) ping does not matter to killer, but it does matter to survivor. He will get information about killer trying to aim at him only once the packet about this action arrives to survivor (so this is again same reason why some horrible-ping killers (say 300+ms) can shoot you without ever aiming at you or nemesis using his tentacles without ever charging it and so on). For these reasons killer has time buffer of killer ping + survivor ping to actually hit survivor.
To show an example. Say 115% killer (e.g. trapper) and survivor are at some short wall with pallet. Killer has 100ms ping and survivor 50ms ping. Survivor is standing next to pallet and waiting for killer to react to him. Once killer decides to move one direction, survivor will see this movement only after 100ms - meaning killer's position is already about 0,415m closer to survivor then what he sees. Now there's some reaction time (this is smaller then your 200-300ms, because when you expect this situation - then you are more aware and can react sooner - say 50ms, but I don't know exact average human reaction number) until survivor starts to move + 50ms until this information arrives to killer and updates survivor's position on his screen. This in fact results in 100ms+50ms+50ms = 200ms survivor "not moving at all" time out of which 150ms is just network slowdown. For this reason killer can be 0,83m away before survivor even starts to move in some direction.
If the game was changed to be "server based" for hits (same way as other online games work), then all the hits would be evaluated only on server. This means that killer with 100ms ping would have much harder time now, because survivor's position would be 0,4m different to what he would see. This would also result in killer seeing that he hit that survivor but game actually telling him he did not hit him. On the other hand, survivors would not get just barely hit (in this specific example) when 100ms+50ms outside of hit zone (or 0,415+0,2m = 0,615m when in safety), but only 50ms outside it (or 0,2m when in safety on their display). This would overall feel much better on survivors and would eliminate reason why some killers play with VPN connected to some distant server (like European killer playing in US or in Asia to have easier time). The better the ping, the better the experience for both sides.
200ms-300ms is already when you know something is about to happen, when you test your own reaction time you will find websites that have a red spot that turns green and when it turns green you need to click... With this you will be around 200-300ms...
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@daniel_owenz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3295641#Comment_3295641
Nah it happened way too many times in a row to be a coincidence. Once or twice then sure, but 3 times in a row with killer spawning right next to me and chasing me off rip? Lol nah, there's something dirty there, only explanation is MMR based spawn points, other games do it as well.
It's awful. MMR is not just about who you match and who gets put on your team these days.
So... Behavior basically tells you that you are wrong and you still don't believe it? Honest question buddy: who would you even believe if not even the officials of the game you are complaining about? XD
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Ping (latency is the technically more correct term) means the time it takes for a small data set to be transmitted from your device to a server on the Internet and back to your device again. The ping time is measured in milliseconds (ms)
I mean yeah we could go this technical, but in the end it does not really change that the killers ping does not matter in our scenario since at the point his shot happens his ping has already been calculated, but the survivors will only come into account when reacting to.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3295625#Comment_3295625
both killer player and survivor player have a ping. just assuming that both player have 60 m/s ping, you have same delay for your input to fire the shot as the survivor does, so it is just net 0. ranged killer are 110% m/s for a reason. they're super slow because your suppose to be way ahead of them in general. This is most evident by when you break pallets as killer, the extra distance to make up is a lot longer at 110% m/s when going in a straight line but trade off is that your ranged killer so you can hit survivor at a range which both weaken and buff shift-w in unique way. As a result, I would almost say that being close to ranged killer is a mistake in itself. The killer is suppose to be in advantage at 8-10 meters because you clearly misplayed your movement somewhere for 110% to be this close. Still do not understand why you want to have second-chances after already making a movement error/instant ADS shot bluff.
Also ping is millisecond not m/s (Meter per second) xD
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I know there is also a delay in the hardware between input and action happening, but as far as I'm aware it is so low it does not really matter. (wasn't it something like 4 ms or something?) so I think that can be neglected...
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3295625#Comment_3295625
both killer player and survivor player have a ping. just assuming that both player have 60 m/s ping, you have same delay for your input to fire the shot as the survivor does, so it is just net 0. ranged killer are 110% m/s for a reason. they're super slow because your suppose to be way ahead of them in general. This is most evident by when you break pallets as killer, the extra distance to make up is a lot longer at 110% m/s when going in a straight line but trade off is that your ranged killer so you can hit survivor at a range which both weaken and buff shift-w in unique way. As a result, I would almost say that being close to ranged killer is a mistake in itself. The killer is suppose to be in advantage at 8-10 meters because you clearly misplayed your movement somewhere for 110% to be this close. Still do not understand why you want to have second-chances after already making a movement error/instant ADS shot bluff.
I ll explain it more easily... Ping is the delay between pressing a button until the action that is bound to the button starts happening. So on the killer side pressing the button to shoot and shooting. However since the survivor can only react to the action happening:the shot itself but not the pressing of the button. The killers ping is not relevant when reacting to his shot. Now when the survivors wants to react to the shot his ping becomes relevant because even if he presses the button in time his ping can delay his action to dodge the shot and therefore it does not end up evening itself out.
That's why the survivors ping but not the killers ping is relevant for the reaction. But ofc it does work both ways, if the killer is reacting to the survivor his ping will be relevant but not the survivors.
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@MarKrTheDemigod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3296060#Comment_3296060
The main point of the traps is not to kill survivors but to force survivors not to do gens, which gives you more time to hunt them down. I think it is not a bad concept and could be expanded on. For example, the activation timer could get those extra 30 seconds but the first completed gen would activate the timer and any following completed gen would cut (e.g.) 30 seconds from the timer. So the strategy where each survivor starts repairing a gen and then suddenly there are 2-3 gens repaired within 10 seconds would not be viable because this would most likely kill the player(s) with traps on their heads. It could also be changed the way that the puzzle boxes would not be revealed to survivors and once they get a trap on their head, they would only see the aura of the box that is the farthest from them. They would always know for sure where to go but if they run into another puzzle box on their way, they can search it too.
The sprint and stealth mechanics are usually just situational. I often manage to grab survivors off of gens at least twice per game thanks to getting close in stealth and approaching from an angle where they cannot see me coming. The charge attack is also not bad but it does require some luck. You can get close in stealth, then charge and hope the survivor doesn't know which direction you're coming from, will panic and start running towards you rather than from you. If anything, the charge attack should count as basic attack so that it can apply Sloppy Butcher or insta-down survivors if you manage to somehow apply Exposed on them.
I know, it is by definition mostly game slowdown. But like I said before, her dash is mostly useless you won't really be able to use it on most tiles and those tiles where it can be used on can most of the time also be played normally. I haven't gotten a Gen grab in ages with any killer, they all get refunded, so you are very lucky on that one, especially since pig is the worst stealth killer to get a grab since you hear her blade come out when she stands up.
Not entirely sure but I think that her roar is even directional so a good survivor should never get caught by it and run into the killer...
Pig is by far the worst stealth killer in the game, she is slow, gives the survivor a warning before being able to use an offensive action and has limited vision while in her stealth.
Doing something about making her traps be more of a threat if you play greedy is a good idea, but I don't like the idea of punishing a survivor because their team played bad... Imagine being on hook with a trap on and they pop 3 gems, you are basically dead with your idea... Make the timer go immensely faster if you have an active trap and do anything but getting rid of it or even lower the timer by a specific amount while doing a Gen with the trap so the survivor has to think about which he priorizes. But he himself should control that risk by his own decisions and not get destroyed by his teams bad decisions... It would give survivors a good choice to decide if they want to risk dying to the trap but maybe get rid of a potential 3 Gen... But I would say maybe 1-1/2 seconds of trap time removed for every % of then gen completed or so?
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@MarKrTheDemigod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3296200#Comment_3296200
"Not only usable to traverse map", yes, but you spoke about two problems - 1) it takes him time to traverse map and 2), he's an M1 killer so he needs to get into melee range to get a hit on survivors, which again takes time because he has no movement-affecting ability. And possibly 3) It takes disproportinally more time to down survivors, compared to the current best killers, because of the whole "chase > hit > survivor gains short speed boost > chase again > hit > down" process.
So, I suggested to give some speed boost when you make survivors scream. This would shorten the traverse time after using the AoE attack. It would shorten the chase times after getting a successful Shock therapy hit and with enough madness level, survivors would lose speed boost abilities (the effect could only last some time after reaching lvl2) and with lvl3 they would get insta-downed on hit, further lowering the time needed to down survivors, which you said is one of the biggest problems of M1 killers.
Madness level 3 makes survivors practically unable to do anything appart from running and using the "snap out of it action". The survivor either has enough time to use the snap action and gets rid of the status, or the Doctor is there to pressure the survivor and prevent the snap action, in that case it is usually not hard to hit the survivor. The exposed status would allow you to down such a survivor faster. If you're too far, they will snap out of it anyway, so it would reward you with a window of opportunity for a quick down if you manage to build up the madness on someone to lvl3.
Lore-firendly approach is not necessary, but I preffer it because otherwise we can give any ability to any killer "just because". E.g. the Huntress is thematically built around hunting/chasing the "prey", with an option to get a long range hit during the chase. She also doesn't have any map traverse ability, so should she also get a teleport? Obviously, I'm not suggesting to give her a teleport, just pointing at the reason why I preffer thematic/lore-friendly approach.
The speed boosts for successful shocks would negate the slowdown the shocks give him and would also give the survivors 0 options to do something about doctor in chase, I want weaker killers to get stronger but while still enabling counterplay against them, when doctor can just brainlessly shock you to gain speed what do you even do in chase?
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I think every killer in the game should be different from a game play perspective, if they all play the same why would you use a different killer except for strength reason. And as she is now Pig is basically an M1 killer with game delay traps and almost useless stealth And an almost useless dash.
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@not_requested49 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/358068/easy-changes-to-almost-all-killers
So nerf pig's main power? If you were going to increase the time it takes for a head pop then you should at least give her the ability to create more traps or just have unlimited since they have to be triggered first by a gen anyway or buff Amanda's secret to give unlimited traps while keeping the jigsaw box aura disabled so it does not promote box camping/patrolling and if that's really still OP then you can set her speed to 4.4m/s when she has that equipped, cuz it's supposed to be a purple addon yet it basically makes her worse
Why would you want the traps to be the main power when they don't change her gameplay mechanics rather than her dash a power you can actually get better at using and so on? I think 4 traps are already a ton of game delay and wish the changes to the dash she should perform far better in chase therefore not even needing as much game delay anymore.
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@MarKrTheDemigod said:
I still don't think it is needed to get all killers on approximately the same level, actually not even possible due their abilities - some are always gonna be harder to use than others and some people enjoy the challange of playing harder killers.
Anyway, if the doctor was to get some mobility buff, I would do it in some way that thematically fits the killer or is "lore friendly". It could be something like
- whenever you make a survivor scream, you gain +x% speed bonus for (some time). Possibly the bonus magnitude could be based on survivor's madness level.
That would allow you to get to a survivor faster after you hit them with the AoE blast and it would allow for shorter chases because you would get to melee range faster. It would be lore friendly as you could slap on it something about "hearing your victims scream fills you with adrenaline, making you move faster" or whatever. If it would still take too long to down survivors, madness level 2 could apply Exhausted and madness level 3 could apply Exposed or some other status effect.
Sure not the same level, at least together... Compare low tier killers with their best addons against the top tier killers, the difference is just unreal...
Increasing his base movements peed gives him too much of an advantage in a way that is not only usable to traverse the map... I don't like the status effect idea because i think people would just blast survivors into madness 3 while keeping them at a tile and if it was exposed they would just have to take a hit while not madness 3 and get somewhere that is a stronger tile and besides those two you mentioned I don't think any other would hel you to make the chase better.
I think over all shock delay shock range and some Form of map mobility is what he needs.
I agree that harder killers should perform better than easier ones, which is also why it is unacceptable that the hardest killer in the game, which is most likely Billy, is as weak as he is currently.
Closing the gap does not mean closing it entirely, but just to give the lower tier killers something to make them less frustrating against better players. By giving the a teleport or other quality of life it cuts down the time to walk across the entire map since M1 killers suffer from big maps.
And when it comes to lore friendly I don't think that is too reasonable especially with how doctors lore got changed according to the wiki, I don't know how big the change was though, since I don't really care about the lore. The point is however that the lore or the looks of a game should never hinder the game play... Also considering that the doctor can somehow create electro shocks does not seem less unreasonable than dissolving into electricity and appearing somewhere else.... Or does the lore give any reason why he can do that besides the entity gave him the power to? Because if that's the only reason than it at least fits his theme and is not that much away from the lore. It still has to do with his theme:electricity.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3295625#Comment_3295625
both killer player and survivor player have a ping. just assuming that both player have 60 m/s ping, you have same delay for your input to fire the shot as the survivor does, so it is just net 0. ranged killer are 110% m/s for a reason. they're super slow because your suppose to be way ahead of them in general. This is most evident by when you break pallets as killer, the extra distance to make up is a lot longer at 110% m/s when going in a straight line but trade off is that your ranged killer so you can hit survivor at a range which both weaken and buff shift-w in unique way. As a result, I would almost say that being close to ranged killer is a mistake in itself. The killer is suppose to be in advantage at 8-10 meters because you clearly misplayed your movement somewhere for 110% to be this close. Still do not understand why you want to have second-chances after already making a movement error/instant ADS shot bluff.
It's not net 0 since your ping has nothing to do with when the survivor will be able to notice the shot, sure if he randomly turns during that time it does something but when it's just about reacting then your ping as killer does not matter, only the time between your shot starting and the survivors input comes into place matters... Most tiles work in a way where you will always be in that 8-10 m range, so it is not a mistake but just how the game functions... Play shack or a long wall jungle gym and see how mic distance you will usually have against the killer.
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@Donleov said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3288043#Comment_3288043
actually there is a way to down in that map, you just would need to walk a lot. Lerys is infamous for already being bad for killers powers. Nurse in the way she is now, people will keep refusing to play vs her for whatever reason, in which ends up in the same: she just cant play.
At least not everyone refuses to play against her as she currently is, especially when you Don't run the most broken stuff.
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@MarKrTheDemigod said:
I expressed myself poorly. I don't know where the claims that the Doctor is "rather objectively on the lower side" or " in the lower third of the killers for sure" come from. Is it some official statistics, or your opinion or is it based on some YouTube "tier lists" or some unofficial statistics...? I thought you might have based the statement on some "how often killers are played" stats and so, if the Doctor is not played often, he would come in that stat rather low, which wouldn't mean he's weak as a killer. But whatever, it was just my wrong asumption.
From my point of view the need to "get into melee range" is not a downside, but rather a base requirement. Some killers have ways to get to the melee range faster/easier but those killers don't have the built-in system of survivor detection and need to "sacrifice" perk slots to get some sort of detection. So, even there the advantage has a cost.
The change may not catapult him to S/A tiers, sure. However, I don't think he is some garbage tier the way he currently is. I have been playing for only about 2 months so I don't claim to have some god-tier knowledge of everything in the game, but when I play the Doctor with people on my skill level, I don't have any problem winning. Ofcourse, when I see in the lobby that my prestige1 Doctor is going against a team of people where one is prest.5, another 17, the next 40+ and the last 50+, I know I'm gonna lose that one but that is because of skill level difference, not game balance. When I have played the game long enough to have THAT level of experience, I think I will be able to win the games too. So, my point of view is that applying changes because "it is not necessary but would be more convenient" isn't a good enough reason, especially if the change removes an intended downside.
I would not call it intended downside, the doctor is in the game for quite some time has been changed from having to modes to how he currently is. I base his strength not only on many tierlists, I ve never seen him in the upper half, but also on how his power would work against efficient survivors, you would need to shock multiple times to get a hit, he is rather consistent in chase but takes time to get a down, which automatically makes him an average to below average killer, because every good killer in the game has a way to get a fast down. Then again you would technically still need some sort of tracking perk because depending on map size you will never know if people are close... If people are playing correctly they are all split up in 4 different corners of the map and then you can get luck to hit one with the static blast, sure when you see a Gen worked on you can try your luck but it is jot guaranteed, whereas BBQ or nowhere to hide are usually more reliable. I have played the game for 3 years now and have over 2k hours, I played doctor quite a lot during that. But he is not a strong killer and performs poorly when people now what they are doing.
Also from a perspective of effectiveness 4 slowdown perks will always be the best sadly :/ The build in tracking that doctor has does not really help that much since you can most of the time find a chase rather quickly, if you have some game sense, that comes with time and I don't know if 2 months of playing, depends on your hours I guess, are enough to grasp that. Also knowing how to use crows is something you will learn over time. Tracking perks are not really required and are mostly feel good I think...
The downside to be an M1 killer is massive, look at all killers that are considered top and you will see they all have in common that they can injure the survivor with a power that does not rely on M1 mechanics: Nurse, Spirt (technically M1s but has a massive movementspeedboost), Blight, Pyramid Head, Wesker, Huntress, Artist, Plague, Oni and so on.
If we want to close the gap between weak and strong killers the weak ones have to be buffed, and since compared to those 9 top killers doctor is really weak and even with those buffs he will be much weaker than they are, but the gap will be closer...
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@MarKrTheDemigod said:
The Doctor might be in the lower third but is it because of his strenght or because not many people play this killer? From what I gathered, people often don't play him because they consider the playstyle sort of boring. However, those who play the doctor usually have good results. Although, don't quote me on this, I don't have any stats about win rates of killers.
Fake doctors only start appearing from madness level 2 but it is also pretty easy to get survivors into that level and keep them there. The fakes don't need to give you consistent information, but it is still information on survivor position and you know that someone IS there. And it is an information that you get without any perks so you can run builds without any info perks, which is another positive.
You don't need to hit multiple people with the AoE shock, one is enough to track and down them. By the time you have hooked the person, you usally have the ability ready and if you find at least one other survivor, you again know where to go. If you don't hit any survivor with the ability, it actually also tells you that everyone is most likely at the oposite side of the map, technically even if you don't hit anyone, it still tells you where tey approximately are.
Perhaps it wouldn't be OP (I think it would, but let's say you're right), but even then - what would be the downside of this killer? Nurse is an example of a killer that has little to no down side and people keep constantly calling for nerfing her.
He is rather objectively on the lower side, I don't think that the strength of a killer depends on how many people play, so I don't really understand your point there? Doctor takes quite some time to get a down and the teleport would not really change that, he would be nowhere near the top but more on line with the average killer.
If you don't hit multiple people with the aoe shock you would need to chase them all to put them into t2 so the information really is not that good, especially on larger loops you often need to shock them many times so they will be in t3 and snap out so even the unhooked person after a longer chase will not give you fake doctors. And if we consider his chase to take at least as long as his shock needs to come of cool down then he would still not be able to down survivors fast and therefore become a good killer.
His downside would be he still needs to get in meele range to damage a survivor and even with a teleport he would need to catch up the distance to the survivor they gained while he was teleporting, since they can run as soon as they notice he is teleporting. It would help him on larger maps. Most killers struggle on a large map, map design is a major issue in this game... I think he would still be rather average with a teleport, it does not improve his chase that much but help with traversing larger maps. His chase is basically fine the way it is but if he has to walk across the map for 20 seconds that is what's hurting him... He would still be weaker than any S or A tier killer and I think he would be in the middle around B tier.
When we want to close the gap between the strongest and the weakest killer we need to make the top a bit weaker and the bottom quite a lot stronger. Since nerfing the good killers to be average would be really rough against a good team.
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@roundpitt said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3295560#Comment_3295560
Oh yea if you are like 5 meters away, they can’t dodge, but you can just M1. If you are talking about unsafe loops, good survivors avoid those.
Problem everything that is 8-10m and less, would have to do the math for the exact distance. But given that the projectile moves at 40m/s and human reaction time being around 200-300ms +30-60ms ping you will end up somewhere between 9.2 and 13.5m depending on ping and reaction time of the specific player. So it is basically impossible to dodge shots based on reaction the shot below 9 m of distance and it becomes possible at higher distances.
Unsafe loops cannot always be avoided depending on the map and the location in the map you currently are in.
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@MarKrTheDemigod said:
Doctor missing map mobility is not a problem. He has the static shock that gives you a pretty good info about where the survivors are. You use the ability, hear the screams, choose one and go after them. Once you down them, you have the static shock usually up again. Also, the fake doctors only spawn around survivors so it can show you where some survivor is even without the static shock. So you don't have to spend that much time searching randomly for survivors and so you can put that time into chasing the survivors.
Having this sort of information available comes at the cost of having relatively slow movement. Being able to teleport around the map would be OP in combination with the information you're getting.
Would it be more convenient? Yes. However, I think it is OK for the killers to have downsides, unless it is something that makes them pretty much unplayable. Which I think is not the case for the Doctor.
By the way, it would be better to have suggestions for every killer in a separate topic. Most people comment on a specific killer and when you want to see the overall opinion on, let's say, Doctor, you need to sift through a lot of comments about other killers that you may not be interested in.
Doctor is in the lower third of the killers for sure, so I don't think it would be too bad buffing him.
The Fake doctors only spawn during Madness 2 and 3 as far as I'm aware, I quickly checked the wiki and did not see addons influencing that in any way but the duration of the fake doctors. But if I m wrong correct me... So they don't really give consistent information, when survivors don't stack up which they shouldn't do anyway you most of the time won't hit multiple people with the aoe blast and seeing some fake doctor 40+ m away will cost you immense time to actually get there, which is why I want to shorten the process... Besides the fake doctors won't do anything as currently. Survivors can rather easily tell the difference so they are more or less useless. I don't think it would be op at all, because the survivors could still get a big head start and it has a massive cool down. If the goal is to close the gap between the strongest and the weakest killers in the game then there will definitely need to be buffs for lower end.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3295557#Comment_3295557
it's just that it does not reveal him properly, has nothing to do with camera control...
Ugh, I think it works properly. you just need to work on your camera controls. You'll probably learn it when dev invent AI killer bots. You will select AI ghostface and hopefully figure it out how to reveal ghostface... some day.
The point is when you consider how long a normal tile is with 200% and 2.5 seconds you can basically outplay even those very strong long loops at cowshed.
Is that not the point of anti-loop? To allow gameplay at zero mindgame pallets? I do not think its enough to mindgame those loops though who knows. I disagree with your last statement. blight with hug tech has just as good control at loops in my opinion. maybe a little better in some cases. Not sure.
I don't think so... But even if it did then the change would just be quality of life and if it was a problem as I think, because it never worked properly, then it would actually help solving it... So it is good change no matter what.
Zero mind game stuff is boring as hell, as pig you would still maybe need to switch directions during your charge and so, just pressing a button and getting a guaranteed hit sounds dumb, and I don't think it is hug tech alone, since that does not help you much at those long loops I meant, you don't need it there but need to be able to flick around or use bump logic...
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@roundpitt said:
The hit box is perfect. There’s just no reason to actually shoot the gun at high skill levels because survivors dodge it flawlessly every time.
To give the gun a use, I’d make it so shooting a gen would have the same effect as kicking it. Tons of fun to be had and diverse builds.
I mean at a certain distance that's just wrong or when they run along a wall just shoot to the only side they can dodge and they will almost always just run into it...
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3295534#Comment_3295534
It has nothing to do with survivors being bad, revealing Ghostface just does not work as intended.
I have no trouble revealing ghostface. Its only in dbd where turning your camera to face a killer is considered difficult. I do not understand why this is conversation in dbd. In every other game, knowing how to move your camera is like... a default skill. Only in dbd does learning camera controls become rocket science.
the buffs you proposed are way over board 200%ms and 2,5 second duration...
In order to avoid writing an essay about how to bad her current ambush dash is at base-kit, I will just say that you can massively bully pig in a chase with current base-kit balance of ambush dash. Considering that blight moves at 230% and has 4 rush tokens which is 4 ambush dashes, I am sure pig will be fine with one dash.
It is not about looking at him, it's just that it does not reveal him properly, has nothing to do with camera control...
The point is when you consider how long a normal tile is with 200% and 2.5 seconds you can basically outplay even those very strong long loops at cowshed... I think that leaves very little for survivors to do against it... But could test it at a PTB I guess... Also Blight has less control than Pig when it comes to dashes.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3294950#Comment_3294950
About the mori of beatraps, the issue here is with the right addons on the correct map you are almost guaranteed to get at least one kill with the traps, and that's just the worst because you could not really do much about it :/
that is intended. I would not say reverse bear traps do not guarantee anything. Reverse traps is a risk to die. it has to do with your approach to how you play against traps more then anything. whenever I have played against pig, they have always had tamper timer+crate of gears(in old version, I saw Jigsaw sketch more, since 5 box has more probability to mori you) but jigsaw sketch variant was nerfed. Overall, the traps punish you for efficiency gen-rush the pig because if you pop every single gen exactly when someone is on hook with a trap and their reverse bear trap is 4 tries to remove trap off, you have some probability to instantly get mori by reverse bear traps. I am unsure of exact probability because I do not play much of pig, but If i had to take a guess, it seems to be roughly 33% give or take. It could be higher or lower depending on the map. In my experience, I am either mori by those traps in soloq or just barely take the trap off. Overall I dislike going down vs pig because a single personal looping mistake can result in a loss for your team against these traps in soloq. A strong SWF can deal with pig-traps in a lot less risky way.
Increasing reverse bear traps timer by 30 second would make reverse bear trap mori pointless.
Overall, if the pig player is skilled at playing m1 killers, those traps can force lose/lose where you have to purposely inefficiently pop generators(to avoid teammate head-pop) which gives pig more time to go for chases and just break nearly every single pallet on the map till entire map is barren or you have option of bum-rushing through objective(which is what most player do) and risk an head-pop mori through boxes.
When you say punishing greedy survivors for recklessly pushing Gens you mean while they have an active bear trap on right? Because in that case we could just make the timer go faster while they do gems and give it overall additional time to not suffer from large maps too much?
Faster ticking traps on gen is not what I am talking about. I am self-deterrent to efficiently pop generators vs the traps. In truth, your not suppose to let pig down you 4 times to put 4 reverse bear traps. your suppose to flawless her because her m1 chase is weak. When I say flawless, I am referring to 5 gen chase pig. Its just that 95% of survivors are not good enough to loop pig for 3-4 gens per 1 trap. As a result, there is no reason to improving her chase because most survivors struggle to play against m1 pig. If they improved her stealth and chase, she would be more consistent at applying all 4 reverse bear traps which equates to more chances to mori(with add-on). Stronger chase would also put less reliance on m1-chase perks for pig. I sometimes do get 3-4 gen chases if the pig chases me but I am only human and I will make mistakes in some games against her if the killer player is good.
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Just for fun, suppose pig was to become like strong A-tier killer that is difficult to beat, an example of her changed would be something like following:
-Crouch transition time reduced from 1.3->1.0(Combat strap base-kit), Reworked combat strap to increase movement when charging ambush dash by 20%/1.0 m/s(according wiki), this would be around ~46.5% from ~26.5%).
-Stealth movement speed increased from 92% to 110%(stronger John medical files base-kit), John medical files reduced from 6%->5%).
-Ambush charge time reduced from 0.75 to 0.5(This is 25% Work-shop grease base-kit), reduced Work-shop grease add-on from 50%->25%, changed missed attack to successful attack by 25%.
-Ambush movement speed increased from 172% to 200%(28% increase), Last will add-on rework to increase ambush dash duration by 0.5 seconds.
-Base-kit ambush dash duration increased from 2->2.5 seconds.
This would be an example of much stronger base-kit stealth pig with better chasing tools. I do not see them improving pig because they tend to keep mori-based characters with weak chases so nobody complains about their mori and perceives the killer as low-tier. pig is pretty low-tier so it is right on track in term of perceived strength.
--
This is in a nutshell why I do not want to write about changing killers. Just talking about 1 killer is like writing an essay on them. Writing posts like this takes as long as watching an otz-video.
I think some of them like the Ghostface one are quality of life for survivor, but then again revealing him has basically never worked that well and people have always complained that it is inconsistent... With this change at least you won't look at his face anymore and still not reveal him...
Survivors are just bad at looking behind them and do not center their camera(invisible crosshair) to reveal him. do not bother balancing for bad survivor players. GF problems can be summarized as poor time efficiency killer. M1 survivors to remove all mark progress disables his ability to keep lingering mark progression and there is no -real- punishment for being marked. he is missing a chase-tooling. I wanted him to have wesker's first virulent bound where you could dash in nightshroud and if you connect with a marked(exposed) survivor, you can backstab them and they fall on the floor similar to trickster's laceration animation. they took that idea and made wesker out of it which is cool I guess.
It has nothing to do with survivors being bad, revealing Ghostface just does not work as intended, that's why sometimes you don't reveal him at all even though you are looking at him but then again he sometimes gets revealed behind a wall, what I would like to do is make it more consistent...
As for the changes for Pig I don't see a reason not to make her Dash better, because that's the most fun thing about her, otherwise she is just an M1 killer, the buffs you proposed are way over board 200%ms and 2,5 second duration... You dash like 20 m... That's insanely much xD I wanted to keep it realistic without making her too strong... I just think the Dash should be the main power and traps should only delay but almost never kill unless the survivor does not go for the trap immediately... It's just so boring when people Only run trap addons instead of chase addons, yeah I get it they are stronger but still playing an M1 killer with game delay is not what Pig should be in my mind... You can do great things with the dash, but it's just too weak as it is right now... And since you usually use the dash after you took control of the pallet making it break pallets does not benefit you much...
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfWBr9RwNVs
It is a little bit older but basically the same thing...
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@barsw said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3294458#Comment_3294458
Actually i saw last days several nurses using addon that increases her movement speed and endurance with bamboozle XD
meme builds happen sometimes, theres also a lot of videos on youtube of people using such builds... So I guess the 1:1000 happens sometimes...
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@TheMruczek said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3295130#Comment_3295130
Rn ppl play Knight in boring ways, these changes are meant to decrease the hold W strat against him and make his guards decent.
For Demo yea, after giving these two add-ons into his base kit he would need add-on rework.
I forgot to add that Marked survivors cannot stun him out of his power. Just make his chase way better.
For Dredge i guess the further you go from your shadow the more speed he gets? So in short loops he isn't op but not underwhelming in long loops
But holding w against Knight is all you can do, that just makes him stronger without making playing against him any better...
I would not increase Ghostfaces chase value that much, because as a stealth he should not rely too much on that anyway, maybe just shortly after you marked them to your easy hit but after that ...
Like I said before, I don't like his put remnant down playstyle, because it's the same boring thing as Artist and Knight, I would rather put the focus on his teleports more.
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@TheMruczek said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/358068/easy-changes-to-almost-all-killers
Huntress doesn't need any changes. She is in really good state.
Doctor should have yellow range and green shock delay in his base kit and he would be fine.
Pig's traps are mostly fine, it is something just very cruel add-ons and big maps that make survivors die from them.
So i would say nerf add-ons, allow Pig to break pallets with her dash
remove the roar she makes while she charges her dash
increase speed to 115% while crouching
lift her camera so she can see more things while she crouches
make her dash longer.
For Clown, yea Scott's idea is pretty great.
I would also add extra bottles to Clown and buff his yellow bottles (they activate 0.5sec sooner, last 2sec longer and allow him to break objects faster)
Spirit doesn't need buffs.
For Legion, just make it so for every injured survivor he gets 6% extra speed to breaking objects and 5% faster recovery from pallet stuns and he is fine.
Plague doesn't need buffs.
For GF the crosshair idea is good.
I would remove the stupid effect they added to his reveal mechanic where it doesn't reset reveal meter when u hide behind object as well as decrease distance needed to reveal GF to 18m.
Add when he is in his power:
10% movement speed
20% faster breaking speed
30% faster recovery from pallet stuns
For Demo, add Barb's glasses and Black heart to his base kit and he is fine.
Oni needs only add-on pass.
Deathslinger get his brown add-ons for reloading, recovering from missed shots base kit. His TR is decreased to 28m and he reloads automaticly after he hooks a survivor.
Nemmy only needs add-on pass.
Cenobite's box takes 2sec longer to solve and he gets extra 6m to his gate range.
Artist i have the same issue. I guess make her 110%?
For Dredge, yellow add-on for exiting lockers should be base kit. While using his power he moves at 110%.
For Wesker, allow his brown add-on Uroboros Tendrill to be base kit.
Infection does not charge up while survivor is in chase.
Knight...Carnifex and Jailer are now 107%
All guards hunt for 26sec, green orb is invisible to survivors.
Gurads disapear when they come within 8m of hooked survivor.
Knight can switch between guards.
Good stuff dude.
Yeah sure Huntress is already in a good state, but the 20% reload time (if it does not stack) is a nice little goodie, won't do much, but she didn't get much love recently and I really like the idea of crossmap oneshots.
I think Doctors chase is mostly alright his main issue is he does not have map mobility and his passive stuff like the fake pallets or fake doctors don't really have much value, so I wanted to do something with it.
I like Pigs roar so I don't really want to remove it, especially since it allows you to make survivors leave the loop if you use it to fake the dash, therefore I just wanted to make her dash stronger. I don't know about 115% while crouching, why would you ever walk normally then? Maybe just 105%? I think both her modes should have positives and negatives about them.
Yeah I also liked his idea, it's just the main issue of most M1 killers ist map traversal.
Yes Spirit does not really need anything other than MDR nerfed, but it is 3.5 % increase or so during her power and the nerf of her strongest addon, so it is not much of a buff overall.
For Plague I just wanted to give her something back for the nerf to her fountains, but sure, we could as well keep the duration.
18m for ghostface is rough considering how far he can stalk you from, I think you should get rewarded by being able to reveal him if you spot him from very far away. I don't like him being 125% while in his power, movement speed increases just mess with looping so much, he would be guaranteed to get a down once a person is marked and cannot reveal him basically (also the stun recovery is weird since stunning him throws him out of his power).
I think just giving Demo two of his probably strongest addons basekit is a bit weird since most of his addons are still not really good and we would need to come up new addons idea. But even if they became basekit I don't really think he would be too strong or so, it's just what else do you run then? He has like 5 good addons xD
I think Onis addons are actually mostly fine, Which would you want to change? I mean sure his passive power gain addons are worthless, but besides that his addons are overall quite good.
The Slinger change seems alright, I think 28 m could also be fine and I like the automatic reload, should work on Clown as well xD
I'm not exactly sure about Nemesis, since I don't know if his cooldown has also been decreased when the basic attack cooldown got decreased for M1 attacks or if his Tentacle is now basically slower than M1 therefore I wanted to give him something, but I totally agree that his addons are godawful, but coming up with new ideas for all of them would be a whole new thing, that's why I didn't really want to over it here.
I would not really buff Cenobite, he is already one of the most succesful in the game, I would however like to reward him for great chain hits, since it is very frustrating to land a great chain but get nothing out of it. That's why the condition was really not easy to reach for that change. I think the problem is more about solving the box when chainhunt has already started because you will just get harassed with chais constantly and it takes so long to solve it, it's just annoying. So sure make the box solving longer but don't let chains spawn while the guy is solving the box, you could probably even increase the solving time more than 2 seconds, because it's not about the time it takes, but more about how annoying it is to finally get to solve it after having to dodge so many chains ...
I don't think making her 110% would change much :/ Like I said I have no clue what to about her.
I don't like turning him 110% while in his power, this will just increase his silly antiloop while not really giving the survivors enough distance to get somewhere. Currently he moves at 3.68m/s and upping that to 4.4m/s would be massive. I would rather make his teleport style better than his antiloop thing.
The problem with it not working while in chase is you might provoke legion backwards chasing playstyle, because then you won't be in chase in the infection will increase again, also it would hurt you when you are not tunneling someone. Because it would only stop after you get unhooked and until you do a conspicious action again I think my solution is more appropriate, but we discuss that further. For the addon sure why not, it's not that much.
As for the Knight I don't really see how that would prevent his current playstyle :/ And turn him more into what he was supposed to be so... :/ Generally yes, his guards need to be faster to be of any use, but he would need a whole new concept to be not as bad from a gameplay perspective as he is right now.
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@bunnyfengenthusiast said:
Some of these changes are great, others are awful. Some of them like addressing Iri Blight Tag (his least offensive addon) and not C33 are just all around bad. Iri Tag is extremely hard to get value out of. But yeah, sweeping major killer changes like this are something BHVR will never do.
Be more concrete so we can think of changes, but I agree C33 is also busted... Many of his addons are... I'm gonna edit the changes we can all agree on. But first we have to come to an agreement.
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@Deathlymusic_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3294380#Comment_3294380
Not at all, people greed against all types of killers and it works very well. I think a streamer I know that does this incredibly well to prove my point is a survivor main names Mish. Def check them out.
That's quite risky and might get you downed preemptively, but sure it can work out...
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@Emeal said:
Why do I as a Cannibal player have to be punished for defending the hook from Swarming Survivors?
Because he is the best face camper in the game, it is nearly impossible to unhook against him, at least it is gonna be a one for one, if even. You would need multiple people to guarantee an unhook and even then another person is basically guaranteed to go down...
If you have a better idea how to prevent him from face camping that effectively I'd be glad to read it. And if you are not face camping with Bubba you even get a buff with increased ms and regaining tokens for stronger chains weeps.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3294830#Comment_3294830
most of the changes just feel like, "I hate how this character makes me lose in this annoying way, please remove that annoying way to lose". pig does not need a negative change on reverse bear traps, those traps are suppose to mori you if you fail chases and recklessly smash generators.
I would say pig suffers from poor base-kit balance and a bunch of add-on that should be all base-kit with stronger numbers. its this weird thing where pig has generator slowdown, stealth, minor pallet anti-loop and believe it or not, anti-shift w play with the dash but all these aspect of her active kit are under-tuned. If you use add-on to improve them, they become more relevant in her kit but they're still overall not great and she still struggles to make good use out of her tools. If I had to take a guess why her kit is balanced like this. I am thinking two possible reasons.
1) Concerned that the mori too strong
2) Fear of the character becoming a jack of all trades, a master of none.
Its case of dev just being overall caution on her design which is same thing that Sadako suffers from. Put Combat straps, John medical files, Last will and Gears base-kit. they would need buff the last 3 add-on's as well because numbers are too low before putting them base-kit and rework those add-on into slightly different add-on that change less critical statistics. I have idea's to what reworked add-on could be but I do not see a point with talking about each killer mainly because very little changes.
About the mori of beatraps, the issue here is with the right addons on the correct map you are almost guaranteed to get at least one kill with the traps, and that's just the worst because you could not really do much about it :/ I fully get that it should work as a way to punish greedy survivors, without hurting those who did not play greedy...
When you say punishing greedy survivors for recklessly pushing Gens you mean while they have an active bear trap on right? Because in that case we could just make the timer go faster while they do gems and give it overall additional time to not suffer from large maps too much?
If you give specific criticism we can actually argue about stuff... And overall if annoying stuff gets made less annoying that's a big W in my book (like looking straight at Ghostface stupid mask without revealing him...)
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3294830#Comment_3294830
most of the changes just feel like, "I hate how this character makes me lose in this annoying way, please remove that annoying way to lose". pig does not need a negative change on reverse bear traps, those traps are suppose to mori you if you fail chases and recklessly smash generators.
I would say pig suffers from poor base-kit balance and a bunch of add-on that should be all base-kit with stronger numbers. its this weird thing where pig has generator slowdown, stealth, minor pallet anti-loop and believe it or not, anti-shift w play with the dash but all these aspect of her active kit are under-tuned. If you use add-on to improve them, they become more relevant in her kit but they're still overall not great and she still struggles to make good use out of her tools. If I had to take a guess why her kit is balanced like this. I am thinking two possible reasons.
1) Concerned that the mori too strong
2) Fear of the character becoming a jack of all trades, a master of none.
Its case of dev just being overall caution on her design which is same thing that Sadako suffers from. Put Combat straps, John medical files, Last will and Gears base-kit. they would need buff the last 3 add-on's as well because numbers are too low before putting them base-kit and rework those add-on into slightly different add-on that change less critical statistics. I have idea's to what reworked add-on could be but I do not see a point with talking about each killer mainly because very little changes.
What I wanted to do with the Pig changes is make the Dash her primary power and for it to be more useful at different tiles, the nerf to the reverse bear trap is debatable, the problem however is that many of her addons only work towards her bear traps which I find really sad, because it is just a passive mechanic you should not have much influence because it leads to boring gameplay, like camping boxes or chasing people while crouched so their timer ticks down while you basically chase them.
I feel like many Killers these days gain a big part of their power through passive slowdown, which I find rather sad. The plays you make with their main power, the one you can influence through skill should have the highest impact. But when you look at Pig atm People barely use the dash since it is rather weak and does not help much making traps the real power... So she is basically an M1 killer with passive games lowdown which is sad...
So we can agree on buffing other parts of her kit to make her stronger the like the dash and maybe her stealth?
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3294385#Comment_3294385
I was thinking of writing a post where I suggest 1 change to each killer to improve them similar to this post, but I got lazy to write it. With that being said, I do not think these are good changes. these some really strange survivor bias changes like destroying hag's traps for free and weakening pig's reverse bear traps. really strange suggestions. I do not agree with any of them.
The funniest thing about your answer is calling my ideas survivor bias even though out of 30 killer ideas 17 are straight up buffs, 7 are somewhat even with buffs and nerfs, not entirely sure which would have the upper hand and only 6 are real nerfs without giving much back... So how exactly is that survivor bias if I want to buff the majority of killers?? So why exactly am I survivor biased again?
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@Dream_Whisper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3292837#Comment_3292837
I give revert other changes, like the smaller Terror Radius he had before; yet the quick scoping is complete fine and doesn't need a revert at all.
I suck that it hard to sneak up to survivors and get close enough to get a clean shot before they can realize you are close. Especially since he is Ranged Killer with the most limited range on his gun, compare to the others that have decent far Ranged like Huntress and Trickster.
I wouldn't buff his movement speed as he has a crippled leg, by lore friendly vibe. Plus, he is a range killer with small movements speed when aiming.
But if I wanted to give significant buff, I would maybe allows the killer to get a free grab/pickup upon successful reeling the Survivors close enough, but if separate by a dropped pallet and window in between. It would go something like this...
I loop a Dwilight at killer shack, he has 2 options of escape; he can run towards the pallet or the window; i am not fast enough to hit him regularly, yet I am in range to land a successful shot even if they vaulted or not.
Option A: He vaults the window and I hit him with the spear, I reel him in while he is still outside, once we are face to face; I get a prompt button to grab him and put him on my shoulder.
Option B: He drops the pallet between us, yet I hit him. I can do exactly what I did before with he window, keep him reel in place while getting close to the pallet and get a free grab also.
Option C: I was able to shoot them, yet the gets reel and gets a simple normal hit, no free grab as there are no barriers in between us. Or the Survivors was able to juke my aim and I miss, they get away, drop the pallet or vault thw window before I can reload my shot.
Another QoL improvement they could do, is increased the Ranged of the gun more as well as the reloading/reeling time to compensate for the insanely nerf to his quickscoping.
I don't know about the grabs, because then you turn it into a loose loose situation for the survivor. When we think about the smaller tiles with a pallet slinger can usually hit the survivor and go around and get his m1 before the chain breaks, but with this he doesn't even need to anymore, even on loops that are too big and since he can always injure you by letting the chain break it doesn't change much if the grabbing can only be used while the survivor is injured.
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@ScØØby said:
Seems like we are at a point were half of the community thinks he is perfect and the other half thinks he is needing a buff.
I don't know if the insta quicscope is overcoming back to DBD, but the slinger does a need a buff to make him feel more enjoyable, I'm unsure as to what that could be but a base-kit faster reload speed does sound good, with faster base-kit reel speed.
All in all the difference between Deathslinger pre-patch 5.3.0 and now is huge, from being able to quickscope everybody to having to take a bit to aim is huge.
Also the folks saying human reaction time and stuiff, relax we don't need a biology lesson yet, I will make another discussion for you guys about that if you want but you can still dodge his spear yes, its not impossible just hold left or right when you think he is shooting and you can barely miss it due to its tiny hitbox.
Also his projectile is the most perfect hit-box thing I have seen in DBD, it can go through holes, through peoples legs it sucks, and over shoulders I don't know why they made it actually so perfect, pretty cool yet frustrating when I give someone a haircut because it went behind their knees or something.
Deathslinger does need so loving but insta ADS should probably and sadly not come back just yet.
Maybe 2023 is the year of the Deathslinger and new cosmetics.
If you think he is shooting yes sure, but then you don't reaction dodge it, that's a big difference...
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3294090#Comment_3294090
It is a 0.4 second delay, how is it that much of an issue for you to not have fun anymore??
it makes wiggling too strong given his 1 ammo count. survivor is somewhat braindead in my opinion against him. there is more odds for him to miss then there is for him to land his shot and in some cases, its physically impossible for slinger to land the shot if the survivor is good enough at movement. The change makes his aiming irrelevant.
Why do people always make such a big deal out of small changes
A) Because they're not small changes. they make the killer a lot less fun to play.
B) They're not as interesting to go against.
That does not change the fact that most shots slinger fires cannot be reaction dodged because it is humanly not possible because of the travel time of singers projectile and the human reaction time + ping/imput delay...
your heavily convinced that he has no counter-play when I am saying he does counter-play to his gun. this is becoming pointless conversation.
It makes his aiming relevant now before you could aim before using ads and the survivor and no chance to react since you would instantly shoot.
Going against Spirit and Slinger is far less annoying since the change.
I'm not necessarily saying he has no counterplay I m just saying you cannot react to it, that's not even an opinion when you look at the stats, sure you can start juking when he raises his gun but at that point you re not reacting to shot itself.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3294385#Comment_3294385
I was thinking of writing a post where I suggest 1 change to each killer to improve them similar to this post, but I got lazy to write it. With that being said, I do not think these are good changes. these some really strange survivor bias changes like destroying hag's traps for free and weakening pig's reverse bear traps. really strange suggestions. I do not agree with any of them.
Weakening her traps but making her dash better, her dash is not really useful at many tiles and people barely use it so her game delay is basically her main power and I find that rather boring therefore I wanted to make the part of her stronger that actually involves the Pig doing something.
I think some of them like the Ghostface one are quality of life for survivor, but then again revealing him has basically never worked that well and people have always complained that it is inconsistent... With this change at least you won't look at his face anymore and still not reveal him...
I would not call it survivor bias though, I buffed some killers, gave others quality of life. But if you want to be more specific why don't think they are good changes we could discuss that.
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@Seraphor said:
- Doctor can teleport to a fake doctor with a 4 second delay, it cannot be interrupted and has a 50 second cooldown, you hear a global laugh while he is teleporting
Yeah that's absolutely busted. You can see illusionary Doctors as they spawn right next to a survivor. You can basically blink to a survivor from across the map.
Doctor doesn't need a massive amount of mobility, he has the absolute best info power of all killers, which can also slow survivors down. He has the time to walk there.
It would still be weaker than Freddys teleport by quite a lot...
- You cannot cancel it, so survivors know they need to run immediatly
- Unless it spawns right next to you in like 1-2 m distance you are guaranteed to get far more distance out of it than with Freddy
- The cooldown is longer than on Freddys ability...
- If the survivors react appropriately they will get like 14 m away before the teleport finishes, given it spawns in like 2 m distance of them... That's quite a lot of distance to catch up again... Freddy only has like 10 m or so to catch up, since he spawns right on the gen and has a shorter teleport duration...
So it is a weaker teleport than Freddy has, how exactly is it busted?
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"Your other suggestion is just useless, no Hag main will have the time during a match to look around the map to determine which trap deservers to be deleted manually."
I mean some people might find it usefull, and if someone does not have time to use it, at least it won't hurt him in any way... It is there if he needs it and if his trap management is fine as it is then good for him.
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@barsw said:
With Billy nerf i agree with you that they destroyed him completely and they shouldnt nerf him that hard.What i want to say that they should nerf nurse in the way that for try hards as her wont be so easy to catch survivors which means that her cd addons distance addons for sure rework and mb her basic time cd increase up to 3-4 seconds .It seems like a hard nerf but its not .For nurse mainers it wont be a really big problem .A lot of people consider to forbid for her blinks if she doesnt see the target or when she uses 2 nd blink hitbox must be not that large .Also starstruck better cut to 8 meters without increased radius .
Finally we get to the point... The problem with her cooldown is that she needs it for map traversal and if you make it much higher she won't be able to catch up to survivors, as it is now she overall moves at only 4.235 m/s with no addons, so holding W against her is already very strong. While I don't think messing with her cooldowns will lead to much I do think we can change range addons and make exposed not work on her blinks, that would already help a lot without having to think of an entirely new core concept.
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@foodie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3294385#Comment_3294385
If you are going to be making a feedback list, you need to be well-informed, and you also asked for feedback. Neither you're able to take feedback nor are you informed about this killer.
Her traps can be destroyed and avoided by crouching, flashlighting, flashbang, running, walking, running from a specific angle that will guarantee you can't get hit, etc. You can time when you will be destroying her trap web when she can't teleport. It takes a click of a flashlight to destroy her traps and any Hag main will tell you that is overpowered. A lot of Hag mains feel forced to bring Franklin's. Tell me what other killer feels the need to always have a specific perk equipped in order to not get their power destroyed? Or what killer gets their power completely destroyed by a survivor item?
And yet, you're suggesting another method of trap destruction, that's a no-go. Your other suggestion is just useless, no Hag main will have the time during a match to look around the map to determine which trap deservers to be deleted manually. That is more work, more time wasted, and hags don't have any time to waste between trapping the map and trying to put some pressure in the match.
The fact that you even say that you need to 3 gen camp just proves the point that she needs a buff. If you are not able to play her without camping, shows that she is too weak in your hands, and since you don't main this killer, it means that she is too weak for the average player, therefore needing a buff.
Her million of counters, her bugs of which you're not aware of (proving that you're not informed; her bugs have been around for over a month now and some even from 2018), her slow speed, lack of good map mobility or gen pressure and I mean pure gen pressure, going to a gen and making survivors get off it, proves she is in need of a buff.
The excuse "new players don't know how to face her the right away", that's correct for any killer. So she needs to be nerfed because new players are not informed about her? Fantastic reasoning, totally not valid for any other killer type.
You still did not say which bugs she has in concrete? Because I'm not aware of any and I play the game for 3 years now. As for bugs that are only around for like a month, meanwhile nobody mentioned them on the forums nor did I hear anybody talk about them, so please tell me more, because I don't really know how I am supposed to find out about them if already read the DBD twitter and forums and still did not get any information about recent bugs on hag?
Yes when you disable a trap by running into it she cannot hit you if she swings directly, but what if she does not swing directly, and just follows you and hits your 3 seconds later? Yes flashlights destroy her, but they are also a huge deal for Wraith for example, flashbang is even worse for him, if he is right next to you he cannot get out of range if you drop it. Artists birds do get destroyed as well if you shine your flashlight on them right? So that makes 3 of them, against Nurse it can be used as well, but needs a lot of practise and other then that... nemesis' Zombies? Sure they don't get hurt that drastically, but then again if you see 4 flashlights maybe dodge the lobby, there are other item combinations where you will feel forced to run franklins, 4 medkits for example. But I think we could work on her weakness with flashlights, so if we implement the possibility to remove them similar to trappers traps we could make her stronger against flashlights, like you need to shine the light on them for longer. What duration would you think is appropriate?
When I ask for feedback I need concrete information and just "she is bugged, weak and needs buffs" as far as I'm aware she is still on the better side of the killer spectrum, at least according to the most recent tierlist videos out there. Unless you have a specific item you can only destroy her traps by triggering them, yes that is correct.
I would not say she is weak because she has to protect a certain part of the map, same as trapper she is a territorial killer and you need to play according to her strenght. She can only teleport to traps that are 40 or less m away, which means you need to play her in a way were you spread your web in a specific part of the map and make it hard for survivors to gens done in that area, this playstyle is basically what trapper and hag rely on, I don't really see why you should buff a killer in a way he was not meant to be played. Like I said before, when I played her in a territorial playstyle, not necessarily only a 3 gen, but it ofc involves one, then you only secure a specific part of the map, like 1/3 or so... and all gens within this perimeter, I was rather succesfull this way, so if the way she is meant to be played works... Why change her concept?
My reasoning for that additional way to disable her traps is that it takes longer to do, since you need to crouch in and do the action instead of just using a flashlight or running in and not getting hit... Everything that wastes more time of the survivor seems to be a good thing, also if you are somewaht aware of your perimeter you can run towards them and force them to get away from the trap, and since they must be crouching to get close they might be forced to either activate the trap and get hit or get a smaller headstart and then maybe still get hit.
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@Seraphor said:
- Doctor can teleport to a fake doctor with a 4 second delay, it cannot be interrupted and has a 50 second cooldown, you hear a global laugh while he is teleporting
Yeah that's absolutely busted. You can see illusionary Doctors as they spawn right next to a survivor. You can basically blink to a survivor from across the map.
Doctor doesn't need a massive amount of mobility, he has the absolute best info power of all killers, which can also slow survivors down. He has the time to walk there.
It is 4 seconds, the survivor would get a notification and can get a headstart of at least 3 seconds, equal to 12 meters, and that only if the thing spawned right next to them... I don't really see how this would be too bad honestly? Doctors is in the lower half/lowest third of killers in the tierlist, I think it is fine to give him something. His teleport cannot be cancled so you know he will appear right there in a few seconds and play accordingly to it. You basically have the killer appear like 20 m away from you, I don't see how that is too much to ask for ^^ But elaborate further :D
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@barsw said:
So better all nurse main start to pray about her addons and ability nerf because it will be the same destiny as with Billy and im sure it will come during next year because a lot of people are annoyed with this killer and blight already .Because devs could even decide to rework her ability and cut blinks completely .
Once again, the community basically entirely agrees, that the nerf on hillbilly was way too harsh... the worst thing they ever did to a killer, nobody plays him anymore, he is the hardest killer in the game and just does not perform equally to the amount of time you have to invest in him... Why would you even want to entirely destroy a killer like that dude?
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@barsw said:
The problem is not to deal if even strong players cant do 0 againts good nurse and last months in dbd started to be a lot of good nurses .This kind of cd and lenght ability must be cut hard .Same with blight cd .
So where again does this apply to Hillbilly??? That's the whole point I made why your comparison was terrible... Good players knew how to deal with old Hillbilly... And I would also strongly disagree that there is nothing good players can do about Nurse, if you watch people like Hens and his friends they can delay a Nurse to some degree to get gens done. And that's all they need to do... The really strong killers in this game are not supposed to be looped forever, only delayed, because otherwise the killer could never even come close to reach his goal, not even to win but to at least down survivors.
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I'm completely fine if you find flaws in the reasons I applied when I thought of those changes and I'll gladly change my mind if you convince me, but therefore you would need to give me more information, because I'm not aware of Hag being bugged, I haven't read about it in the forums nor have I come across anybody complaing about her through another medium... So please go ahead and enlighten me...
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And if you want to stay at the if I have not mained a killer standpoint.. I have mained like 10-15 killers at some point in playtime... First Wraith, then Legion, Ghostface, Demogorgon, Deathslinger, Nurse, Nemesis, Pig, Doctor, Clown, Blight and so on... Having a main does not mean anything, it is just the killer you currently play the most, and for most players that changes constantly, there are very few people that just stick with one killer for a long time. And to be honest, 80% of killers in this game are not complex enough to spend too much time on them and not figure out what their weaknesses are and how they could be improved... I don't even think you have to play the killer to figure out what the weakness is, just by knowing their power and maybe having played against them is oftentimes enough.
A change is not good nor bad because of the person that proposed it, it is more about the quality of the idea itself.
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@barsw said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3294196#Comment_3294196
Keep saying but nurse must have nerf and a lot of people would agree with that ,so you can think whatever you want .
My main point was that your Billy comparison was terrible and for some reason you just keep complaining about the Nurse point, even though I did not necessarily disagree with a nerf to Nurse? I complained about your comparison since you made it look like people cannot deal with Nurse for the same reason they could not deal with old Hillbilly, which was because they had no clue what to do against Hillbilly, good players already made matches hard for him, but against newer players that had no clue he was too strong, I would admit to that, but that was not a problem of billy himself but more of learning how to counter him or matchmaking that put good Billy players against survivors with no clue what to do... So overall I really don't understand what your point even is?
Thats like... You say A is similar to B, I complain about the comparison, because I don't think it apllies and then for some reason you keep saying I was against the idea at all even though I only complained about the comparison the entire time? I just don't want a killer to again be destroyed like Billy... or even Freddy for that matter... Both have mostly terrible addons...
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@foodie said:
So you're suggesting nerfing Hag instead of giving her a buff which is what she needs?
Appreciate your effort but I dont think you should be suggesting changes to killers that you don't main and don't understand what their issues are.
I wouldn't dare suggest any changes to killers that I don't main.
Hag is bugged and relatively weak in this state of the game. Her traps have too many counters and you want to suggest another even stronger counter?
Big no from me.
As far as I know her Traps can only be disabled by flashlights and by triggering them normally, therefore I would like the option to do it this way, escpecially since it would take the survivor more time to do so instead of just running into it, it would also be a good solution for newer players, since they probably don't know how to properly disable a trap and when to do it, while good coordinated teams already harass the hag from the beginning of the match and will disable her traps constantly while she is hooking someone or out of range to teleport to them... I also think that deleting traps is a nice quality of life thing.
What exactly is bugged about her currently?
I don't think you should judget the argument made from the standpoint of "you're not well informed therefore you cannot be right" I played basically every killer in the game for a certain amount of time, some are more complicated some are less, and for me Hag just feels like a better trapper. When I played her, even against flashlights I just took a 3 gen from the beginning and trapped it as much as I could, I have not lost more than 1-2 games on her of the dozens I've played and I've come to find her rather boring to play.
I would also think that I understand what the issues of most killers are, some are mostly fine and I would just like to give them something as a little goodie... But overall the issues are:
Trapper: Collecting and setting traps takes too much time
Hillbilly: Weak addons, unnecessary Overheat mechanic, Range addons make it too hard to effectively gain distance against her
Nurse: Exposed perks work too well on her cutting her chase times down drastically
Myers: Ridiculously broken tombstone addon, weak early game, can run out of his power
Doctor: No map mobility
Freddy: Weak addons, basically worse chase than clown but with a teleport
Pig: Dash is basically her secondary power and barely used at all, Game slowdown through traps is her main thing right now
Clown: No map mobility
Spirit: MDR is probably the most OP addon in the game, or at least in the top 3
Pyramid Head: Weak addons
Deathslinger: Didn't get anything back for his bigger terrorradius and longer wind up
Blight: Addons are way too good for how strong he is already
Twins: Sluggish to play because of long delay between switching and holding victor hostage as the most boring but effective counterplay
Trickster: Main event is most of the time not up when you could use it, so it just goes to waste
Cenobite: Annoying to get constantly interrupted while trying to solve the box
Onryo: Overall rather weak and only strong with her condemn playstyle
Wesker: Way too good at tunneling of hook since the infection will rise during that
I think those are the most obvious flaws they suffer under currently and I don't think you need to main a killer to figure out why they are weak or what could be a way to improve them, if you however have criticism about why the things I wanted to change are bad then go ahead.
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@Deathlymusic_ said:
I would like to propose a change to the pallet spawn rate on most maps. Pallets should be a resource that are incredibly important and should be conserved. Right now the current dbd meta is to waste this important resource, and run to another pallet and waste it. I'm a 2018 player, I remember when we would conserve pallets consistently, and it created fun chases for both survivor and killer. Some of my worst loses as killer were survivors who knew how to greed pallets. And by greeding pallets survivors got a huge thrill out of it. The 2018 dbd community is nothing like the 2022 dbd community and there's a way for bhvr to make it more like 2018 while still keeping the 2022 feel. Turn down pallet spawn rates again. Survivors will then be forced to try to use as much resources as possible, in an attempt to run the killer. If your worried about survivors being able to run killers, turn up vault rates. Vaults have always been used as loop extenders, and I think it's better for survivors to be forced to greed pallets and then have vaults to extend chases for the greed.
The problem is some killers just burn through pallets like crazy and there is not much more to do than just pre drop them :/