Archol123
Archol123
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@Archael said:
I agree that filters are cheating, exactly same as placing tape on center of monitor to have crosshair while playing with huntress. Everything that gives advantage but its not included into vanilla so everyone could have same access to it, is cheating.
I i really hate any form of defending it... I mean, if you feel game is unplayable without it - play something else. If you feel this isnt bad, then go on i guess... But at least do not lie its not cheating.
And bhvr have to do something with it. If they thiks its okay to play with various filters, they should included this into the game, especially if they wants it to be competetive.
What is cheating then by definition?
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@Gargo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3600258#Comment_3600258
reported a lot of cheaters. BHVR banned only that one with teleport who finished the game in 5 minutes. In other cases "you didn't provide video" (which I have no possibility to record)
Well guess that is what happens when you create a game without basic functions like replay and what not and then make the players go extra steps just to have what basically any other game has... I have not seen any other multiplayer game that does not have such functins...
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@skylustv said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3600265#Comment_3600265
i would love a true hide and seek game mode, no genrush, find itens and try to escape
I would not play it, because I find the hide and seek quite boring, but like I said, I will never say no to more variety and different game modes, as long as I don't have to play them.
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@MoistyMyers said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/5J7GQDLPMIP2/untitled-drawing.png
it would give the players the option to chose which chase/menu theme they enjoy listening to more.
Nice idea, so I don't have to listen to terrible chase muscis anymore ^^
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@skylustv said:
- All maps are complete dark with a massive fog
- Survivors cannot hear terror radious and can't see red lights, you better hide!
- Objetive: Survivors must find and collect keys spread on the floor and open chests to find the major key and escape throught the HATCH! (it's necessary to open 8 chests until the major key (the True key) spawns in a chest)
- When the major key is in hands all survivors become exposed and can receive insta Mori, with the major key in hands you better find the hatch with your friends and ESCAPE!
- Chests took longer to be opened, does more noise and progress is reseted if canceled!
- Survivors lose the key when hitted by the killer
- Killers can see chests aura
- There are no scrach marks in this game mode, survivors do your best to hide and escape!
- No perks in this game mode
If you liked this game mode ideia, feel free to give more ideas!
I will never be against new gamemodes, no matter how terrible I might find them myself, so yeah sure why not. Not necessarily something I would play, but like I said, new game modes would always be great.
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She is overall fine currently, however she might stil be bugged, her FoV for some reason seems lower than on any other killer and some other stuff, but her strenght is alright.
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@jonifire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3600143#Comment_3600143
I think the kill rate isn‘t high, because of the traps killing people. She has just such a good slowdown, which makes people do no gens and sometimes you get a free hook from people that refuse to leave the jig saw box in front of you.
Probably.
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@Gargo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3594553#Comment_3594553
do you think they did something? No.
Today is another obvious cheater - Chucky with 100 prestige
Happens my man, but like I said before, that's not really what this post is about, nobody is defending cheating and bhvr is sometimes really slow in banning cheaters, but what the guy here is trying to explain is that whitelisted tools are for some reason still cheating... Despite explicitely being allowed by the devs.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3599882#Comment_3599882
Yes, I only use these two addons. Yes, the ambush works fine. I dont know what's so funny about me performing really well without the addons. I played enough to perform well without the grease or last will. John's file and combat straps are even way better in my opinion, due to it punishing survivors for running away.
Myers is really bad in terms of stealth. It's only made better with addons and monitor. On top of that, he is a huge killer with a big WHITE mask. You can see him coming from everywhere.
Dredge becomes undetectable during nightfall. He's technically a stealth killer.
Skull merchant is just awful. Let's put it that way.
I "defend" the lore, because she's licensed. BHVR needs to pay money to lions gate to use her character. If she doesn't fit their ideas, they can't do it. Therefore I'm certain, that she will remain trap focused.
Wraith hit and run is only good for public games and uncoordinated survivors. Chase wraith is only viable against weaker survivors or with addons.
Please don't use YouTubers to back up your arguments. I can't take most of them seriously. I want however to take you seriously.
If adding something to her chase is not destroying her balance with the slowdown provided with the reverse bear trap, I'm fine with it. I'm however more for a pallet break on the ambush to punish pre dropping. I'm also all for your idea of adding little mini games to Amanda's jigsaw boxes. Maybe similar to how they added a new game for skull merchant. It would definitely mix things up.
Gameplay in terms of morphology describes everything you DO in a video game. It's not related to it being interactive in a multiplayer situation.
I'm also for playing more interactive. I think I made that clear. But I'm afraid, that dbd is not balanced around much interaction. You dont have to be a tournament survivor to bomb rush gens and get out in 5 minutes. You also don't have to be a tournament killer to tunnel someone out at 5 gens with nurse. Everyone can do that with a 4man swf or good experience on Nurse.
I mean sure it is nice for pushing people away, but I would rather just get the hit... And I feel like the two addons I mentioned make her ambush viable on more tiles, you still get bamboozled if they just run away, which is one of the reasons why I would like a standing dash, so just running away from the loop when you use your power isn't an easy way out and you need to work on your positioning instead.
Yeah sure he is, but if you are behind a wall while doing a Gen and not in the open you don't, and obviously we are taking addons into account, even a 12 m heartbeat with only dead rabbit is mostly good enough, when you hear the heartbeat you have 3 seconds to realize, find out from where he is coming from and run to a tile, which is hardly possible in those situations in addition to the install down following I think he is a weaker but still viable stealth killer.
I guess you could argue that way for dredge, but considering that his nightfall appears like 2-3 times a game and besides that he is not I don't know if I would agree, because stealth is not really his playstyle, but sure if we only go by undetectable...
Are we all talking about comp here or what? I was thinking we were only talking about public matches, and sure the hit and run has its strength and weaknesses and excells when you are going against solos, but even chase Wraith can work well, he is a very decent killer.
I mean as long as the element of traps is there I don't really think they would mind about the concrete balancing and what is the main focus, it is a video game after all... You need to allow player interaction and skill expression so you actually feel like doing something, and bear traps don't really add much in that regard. When talking about additional gameplay it obviously has to be something substantial that adds different things, it does not really matter if you hit skill checks on a totem a generator or a jigsaw box, the gameplay stays the same, sure technically speaking it is still gameplay but it is not really something new or fun.
I used Hens as an example because he explained why she works in that specific playstyle of Gen grabbing, the guy is obviously really good at game but I'm sure we can agree that it is somewhat of a click bait to call Skull Merchant the best stealth killer.
Yeah exactly, I heard some ideas about the merciless storm skill checks, maybe the skull merchant mini game and what not, maybe even 2-3 other new things. I would however make it so the impact of the minigame is rather little, because otherwise some of them would destroy weaker players, maybe just make it so you have to do the minigame for X seconds and every successful turn of the minigame cuts some time off, however you don't need to start over when you fail one, it only doesnt cut off time or maybe adds very little or something in that direction? Pig already has a very high kill rate against weaker players, I don't think we need further increase it by adding such things.
Sure I guess but you are not forced to play that way, you can still play in a more chill way if the games allow it, and by the matchmaking being how it is you can do it most of the time.
A little side note, in Otzdarvas latest video about the road map for the first half of 2024,his assessment towards the changes for pig is basically that she will get nerfed because of the rather high kill rate she overall apparently has because of her traps and addons for them... It would be kind of funny if they went with the "we nerfed the pig" meme, but also somewhat tragic.
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@pale_hispanic said:
Nerf. Give her more ways to counter her. Make her stun hitbox larger and stuns more punishing. I don’t know how badly this would hurt, but maybe give a little indicator to where she will blink? Kinda like how pyramid head works but just being a small dot to where she’s blinking to.
Also she still has pretty good add-ons for an already busted killer so nerf those too.
That would basically do nothing when the Nurse flicks, you realise that?
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3599787#Comment_3599787
You summoned me. I came.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3599724#Comment_3599724
Demogorgon and Billy both suffer from the same issues. There are loops where their powers do not work, simply because they have the wrong shape. Both can only go in straight line (with Billy having 0.75 seconds to do a turn). So any filler loop that is not a rectangle or triangle is not going to allow you to get hits.
Then, there are also loops where it's not the shape, that counters your power but the proportions. If the longer wall of a loop is too short, then the survivor makes it around the next corner before you can hit them. If it's too long, there is a chance for them to just react to your power and dodge you that way. Not to mention, in Billy's case you'll also have to mindgame to even get into a position where you can curve that survivor.
I have seen first hand what loops a pig ambush can get you hits in and I'm jealous. Like that weird car loop in the corner of GoJ with the vault and the pallet. Curving that thing without Engravings is pretty much no use because you are just too slow and with Engravings it's still a matter of how well you can mindgame and execute the curve perfectly (else you might bump into the rear view mirror). Pig's ambush works very well in somewhat secluded loops. If the survivor cannot leave, then things get ugly real quick.
At least the long side of most filler loops usually have a form that lets you curve or use the shred on, I think? I remember Ormond being a bit rough for Demo, I stopped playing Billy when they butchered him, I only used to play without addons back then, but overheat was just too much...
Unless you can slide off of the tiles the same demo does, does Billy still glide along some car loops?
I mean curving without engravings is generally speaking rather tough isn't it? I have never seen a Billy without them try to curve so I though it was basically a given these days to at least run Doom.
I mean fair, you cannot curve that GoJ tile, or most of the tiles because the bush collision is so terrible... But because the pallet is so close I don't really thing your odds are that good to get a hit there with Pig either, you because you should be somewhat consistantly able to switch between pallet and window car, once she takes pallet control you can just go to the other tile and the other way around, so in my mind I don't think that tile is particularly good for pig either?
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3599823#Comment_3599823
I think you should suggest your own dash - based killer because you clearly want to change her in a drastic way. Going away from her trap based gameplay and to a more chase oriented killer.
To this i will say: She will not change in her core design. Her core design are the traps. DBD is still a celebration of horror. SAW is a big part of that. What makes SAW, SAW? The traps.
Pig in my opinion is mid c - tier. A good killer. Perfectly fine. Not awful, not great. Probably around Doctor. Better than Wraith. Shes alright. This, i say out of experience in the game and the over 2000 hours i have on her only. I have my reasoning and am not biased. This conslusion comes from discussions i had with others and is based on many aspects regarding multible killers kits.
What makes you so know what is objectively good or bad game design? I dont think shes designed badly at all. Also, where does she not involve gameplay? She even enables gameplay, other killers have not. A secondary objective. Survivors have to interact with jigsaw boxes during the trail. Thats gameplay. What you mean is direct killer survivor interaction. Sorry to break it to you, but in the "highest level" matches, the killer has almost no interaction with all 4 survivors at all. DBD isnt about interaction between survivor and killer. Its about the survivors finishing the gens as fast as possible to make them not having to interact with the killer too much.
This is the reality. A sad reality. For me the best part about DBD is the chase. Seeing the games direction in balance makes me a bit sad. More gen speed, more tunneling and less interaction. But thats how it is until it gets addressed accordingly.
You havent seen the saw movies at all.... She roars before attacks. Thats also adapted from the movies. If thats bad concerning gameplay is debatable. Im all for putting the sound effect on the attack itself and not on the charge up, despite the loss of memes.
I would not say, that shes the worst stealth killer in dbd. Dredge in nightfall, Myers and Skull merchant are worse in that regard in my opinion.
Of course her stealth is subpar. THATS WHY I USE COMBAT STRAPS AND JOHNS MEDICAL FILE ALL THE TIME AND SUPPORT FASTER CROUCHING SPEED AND STEALTH MOVEMENT SPEED ALL THE TIME.
Sorry, i hate to repeat myself again and again.
Her stealth should get buffed.
I don't think the changes I proposed are really drastic, but whatever.
How is C tier good? C tier ist somewhat average, and I would even argue that Wraith is probably a better Killer than Pig, because of his map traversal and the lunge around tiles. But then again I think Wraith is way better than people give him credit for.
Secondary objectives are great on paper, but then again they tend do not really be different than generators... You do the same skillchecks you do on gens and are basically more vulnerable while doing them because you might just get your head popped if something goes bad, but it is not really interactive, gens are the most boring thing to do on survivor side and chase interaction is basically the most fun part, when I talk about gameplay I mean actually doing something that is fun and interactive, if the trap removal had a variety of interesting mini games then maybe we can consider that, but otherwise it is the same boring stuff we have been doing since forever... Skill checks on generators...
I mean when you think about comp the reason for that is because of how efficient the survivors are and that the game would simply be over if the killer played differently, is that good? Not really, but it is how it is... However those guys are really competetive and have so many hours and honed their skills in 1v1 and scrims, they still care about actually playing I would say, because they don't get paid enough to live off of it, so it is not really a job either. When you look at the 1v1 comp survivors, those guys are basically only in for the chase and not for the macro of the match, so I would not really go in that direction with your point... Because in the end the interaction is forced that way because of how efficient survivors can be and that there is not really a way to win and play nice with that good players.
Great the most fun part is the chase, so why exactly is it a bad thing to give players the option to play a killer in either a stealth or chase way? Same with Wraith you can play hit and run or you can play chase... I think both should be viable and I don't think by adding more chase power you will necessarily destroy the other half of her kit...
Yeah so? I mean for a stealth killer having such a loud notification that does not really look stealthy to me, the other stealth killers have more subtle hints... Yeah it is quite nice for the whole boop the snoot thing, but like I said it contradicts the stealth theme... You can defend it with the lore all you want, but if you bend the gameplay because of the lore you will need to admit that it does not necessarily fit in with the theme of the gameplay.
I definitely would say she is the worst stealth killer by far... Myers can basically have a 6m heartbeat in t2 which is so small it is neglectable, it gives the survivors no reaction time at all to reach a tile before he whips around the corner and hits you, sure Pig is smaller in her stealth mode but also way slower and she cannot attack out of it without giving a warning, the sound of the blade unsheathing or the roar before her dash. If you are in a open map without line of sight blockers you will have a tougher time to sneak up with Myers for sure, but then again even while crouched she would be spotted from survivors from a distance... If you get blood lodge and try to play stealth you will have a miserable time no matter which one of the two, but on other maps with line of sight blockers I think Myers has the better stealth.
I have never considered Dredge to be a stealth killer, just because of how loud he is during nightfall... But sure, if you count him in he would be last, however he plays mostly around the teleport during nightfall and not so much with sneaking up to people... So I would find that debateable... Skull Merchant apparently works really well as a stealth killer, because unlike the others she has no sound cue whatsoever if she is close, not Myers or Wraith breathing, no Ghostface shroud sounds and so on... Apparently she works really well for gen grab builds, if we believe Hens at least, I don't know, let's just say she does not suffer from those minor sound cues but her stealth is unreliable and also a little bit weird considering she is supposed to be area control and not really stealth?
You only ever use those two addons and tell me the dash is alright? xD I find it really horrible without last will and maybe even Workshop grease... Half of the effects should be base kit just so the dash is not as bad anymore.
Yeah agreed, her stealth is horrible and there should be some things that need to get added...
I would say faster crouch speed, combat straps basekit and some changes to her dash either in speed or duration or whatever...
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3599804#Comment_3599804
But it is not possible to moonwalk / hug tech with them due to the collision.
I hope they will finally fix the problems with collision, Billy has. But i dont think its gonna happen realistically.
Fair, but then again the day billys collision is fixed is probably the day hell freezes over.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3599768#Comment_3599768
If you dont care about the Pig and what she resembles, maybe consider creating your own dash - based killer?
She is the SAW - killer. She will stay the SAW - killer. Like it or not. The breatraps, boring or not, are the main focus of her power and should remain that way.
I asked a Mod. Does that not implay that i assume what the devs think about the Pig?
Again: shes a stealth - slowdown killer. Not a chase oriented - mechanical killer. She presents a certain playstyle and thats fine. We need variety.
To those in your posts: The pig is not weak. Not by a long shot. Shes a good killer. Just not a strong chaser.
I would say the Pig is in the bottom 30% of killers when you rate them by strenght. She is pretty weak. How would you rate her then if you think she is good?
Why would I create my own dash based killer when all I want is a better Dash on Pig? How does this make any sense?
Doesn't change my point that it is bad game design to have something be the main focus that does not really involve gameplay in that sense.
For me that only implies that you think this would be important enough for them to waste their time on this, which I would find rather odd...
She is probably the worst stealth killer in the game, and even her "ambush" attacks don't really come as a surprise considering that you roar before the dash and make a sond when you stand up... So I'm sure we could do some polish there, to improve her stealth. Slowdown is not really a playstyle... So I guess we can argue on the stealth part, she does not really work properly as a stealth killer because moving in her stealth is way too slow and you not necessarily get an easy first hit like the other stealth killers do.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3599774#Comment_3599774
Again, the difference is the collision. Both Billy and Wraith end their attacks immediately if they collide with any hitbox. The Pig does not. This enables the moondash. The getting stuck is not what i meant. Sure, the Pig can get stuck. But we are not talking about misplays now, are we? She can also hit invisible ambush hitboxes, ending her ambush immediately. But that another story.
Due to the collsion missing, the pig can curve and moonwalk around tiles much like a blight or Chucky. This is something a Billy can only dream at. Btw... I happen to know a good Hillbilly/ Curvebilly main.... I summon you @Xernoton for your Hillbilly insight and knowledge about the difference between the ambush and the chainsaw sprint!!!
Sure but avoiding to collide with things is part of the skill cap to those killers in that sense, sure there are ridiculous twigs you can get stuck on for example on eyrie or on Yamaoka, but as far as I know those also make you stuck on lunge attacks...
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3599724#Comment_3599724
Disagree.
First: of course the Clown has a better chase than pig. BY FAR.
Second: Myers also has a lunge. That combined with the faster vault make him more than just a normal m1 killer. He can close distances faster. Ghostface can theoretically crouc mid loop to get cheeky double back hits. Demogorgons power cant be used at round loops. Fact. The Pigs ambush can. Facts. Does that mean that the Demogorgons shred is weaker than the Pigs ambush? Never said that. Fact.
I said that the Pig can get hits at tiles other killers cant get hits that reliably. Therefore i mentioned Demo and Billy. Both have better chase abilities than the pig. They are better in most situations. But not in some. In these situations, the ambush outperformes both.
Wraith hant steer the uncloak ambush as good as pig. The duration of the ambush of pig is also longer. Whats the biggest difference? Similar to Chucky, the Pig doesnt collide with objects during ambush. The Wraith does. Sure they are similar in some aspects, but definitely different in execution.
Aaahhh ok now I see, I read the last few killers as without power, which is why I was only taking into Account ghostface without shroud and Myers in T2 basically. Yeah sure both are true, but at their core they are not that different from basic m1 killers, the lunge increase is really not that much, I think only like 10% or so? Maybe less? not entirely sure.
I'm not completely sure that there are tiles where Billy cannot get a hit but Pig can, both excell at rather short loops, maybe medium sized, most loops offer a way for him to use the chainsaw, right now I can only think of some loops on Eyrie where he might not be able to get a hit but she can, however I cannot think of many more, so please enlighten me.
I think Wraiths lunge might be shorter but faster, I'm not entirely sure on that and his steering is basically something you need to care about as the player. Pig can still get stuck on some things similar to Wraith it just does not end her dash, it will probably still not end up in a hit.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3599719#Comment_3599719
I said. Im all for buffing the ambush in charge time, crouch time, speed and distance. Im against a dash out of Amanda being crouched. Period.
Other killers that struggle with connected tiles... This is gonna be fun.
- Wraith
- Hillbilly
- Myers
- Doctor
- Bubba
- Freddy
- Ghostface
- Pyramid head
- Nemesis
- Sadako
- Dredge
Maybe more.
Interconnected tiles are a problem. Not just for pig. Killers with long charge ups have similar problems. Not just Pig. Especially Wraith and Dredge face similar problems.
If you are playing Myers correctly you will down them before they reach anything, you are already making a mistake if you chase someone normally when not in T3. You sneak up on someone pop t3 insta down them and then use the rest of the duration to chase normally. Ghostface is basically the same.
I don't really see how it is supposed to be problematic for Nemesis and Pyramid head?
I think we might have misunderstood each other here... What I meant was basically connected tiles where you just get chase away from the tile without using its ressource, the pallet, like Dredge does... Obviously if tiles are chainable that is generally really rough on most killers, but that is something completely different.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3599712#Comment_3599712
You seem a little passive aggressive towards me. Did i give you any reason? You corrected my morphology earlier. Thats not nice my friend. I dont do that if i want to have a logical argument with somebody.
And again, you portray perfectly why nobody in this community believes anything without video proof thrown at their face.
The moondash works, it throws off a ton of survivors. I had some "tournament" 1v1 survivors play against me on tiles. They knew it was coming. I hit them regardless. Why? I switch up my game. I mindgame. Sometimes i go for a double, sometimes for a triple. I sadly cant show you this. So you wont believe me. Guess we have to disagree because i cant offer you video proof. SORRY.
Amanda interacted with test subjects. She however never rigged the game directly in front of them. That is a difference from the movies. You are correct there. She rigged them without the subject knowing of her existance. She, however, did interqact with test subject during their trail, changing it up in the process. The Amanda in DBD is the Amanda at the end of SAW 3. This is an Amanda that has lost her trust into the teachings of jigsaw and just wants to torture people that she sees fit. Thats means people that have sinned. She cares for John but is definitely a killer. Therefore, in DBD, she punishes survivors while using Johns teachings and killing them using his tools of reawakening as tools of death. Therefore her adaption in DBD is 100% faithful.
Now to the ambush out of stealth part.
How can you say that this would be fine from a gameplay standpoint? What killer do we have with a dash - like power?
- Wraith
- Hillbilly
- Pig
- Demo
- Oni
- Blight
- Wesker
- Chucky
Now think about all of them.
Finished? Good. Let me clarify.
- Wraith has to be cloaked to use his power, therefore having to uncloak before using his dash (which got nerfed because it was deemed too opressive).
- Hillbilly has to charge his chainsaw, making him extremely slow in the process. On top of that, he has to deal with an overheat mechanic. The sprint is also very limited in steering.
- Demo also has to charge up his power making a loud noice in the process. The shred, similar to Billy, is also very limited in steering.
- Oni has to collect his power before being even able to use it. Making him a pure m1 killer before hitting a survivor. The power also has a duration, that is being reduced for each hit.
- Blight has 5 rushes. The first one is not able to injure people. All of the rushes are limited in steering.
- Wesker has two bounds that can be performed one after another. They have a sound clue and are also limited in steering.
- Finally we have Chucky, who has one dash. It is locked behind a power that has to recharge for multible seconds after use of one dash but has a lot of steering.
What are their difference to the pig? None of them have a power that delays survivors for several minutes during a trial. Some killers even lose time if they want to use their whole kit ( Demogorgon setting up portals). Some of these powers are already very restricted in comparison to the Pigs ambush in terms of steering. The pig on the other hand is held back by the crouch -> charge -> attack proceedure. Giving the pig amazing chase potential outside of stealth/crouch without any drawbacks is making her kit not only overloaded but also overtuned in terms of strenght.
So lets focus more on her chase and less on her traps, right???
The Pig is designed to be a stealth - slowdown killer. The traps are the main focus of the SAW - franchise, therefore being the main part of Amandas power in DBD.
I want her chase to be buffed, dont get me wrong. However, i want her to be better while staying true to her original design.
Another point i like to add is the part that some of the suggestion would massivly overload her kit. I dont know what BHVR things about Amanda in terms of accessibility. They mentioned Trapper being a killer they want to keep as simple as possible to make him more accessible for newer players. The Nurse on the other hand is harder to learn for newer players. I feel like the pig is supposed to be simpler for newer players.
She already has a loaded kit. Stealth, Traps and Ambush. Thats a lot, even if you dont feel like it is. Adding more mechanics and abilities, maybe even cooldowns to her, might not be in the direction, BHVR wants her to be. Maybe a mod @Rizzo could clarify how compex she is supposed to be for newer players. And i specificly speak of newer players because shes licensed and brings in people liking the SAW movies. Therefore making her the first killer for a specific audience.
Last but not least: the traps. Survivors can definitely use different directions. Even with a 4 search trap. They can NOT however heal up, safe a teammate off hook, get chased away, crouch in a corner, go for a flashy safe, open a chest, bless or destroy a totem, do a glyph, finish or work on a generator, walk to preserve sprint burst or other chenanigans. With addons, i agree. When used, survivors are on time and can oly walk in one direction straight. Im all for nerfing the gear addons, the jigsaw sketch or the tempered timer. I dont mind them at all.
A statement given without evidence/arguments or prove can be disregarded without such, it is pretty simple.
If the dash works so well I wonder why we never see anybody play Pig in tournaments? It is very situational and works on not too man tiles therefore not being a reliable tool rendering Pig mostly an m1 killer and typically m1 killers cannot perform anywhere near decent in tournaments.
Wraiths lunge did not get nerfed, only the duration of his post uncloak speed boast did get decreased by 0.25 seconds I think it was? That however did not in any way affect the duration or distance of his lunge, it just made it so you needed to start the lunge slightly faster.
The uncloaking with Wraith to use his speed boost and increased lunge around tiles works somewhat similar to pigs dash, you take pallet controll and then start the process, so yeah those two might be somewhat similar, like I said before.
Hillbilly is not extremely slow, he is like 92% or so? Sure a lot slower, but not extremely slow. The overheat as it currently is barely effects him unless you want to go for longer sprints, his steering in the first 0.75 seconds or what it is is actually quite high, otherwise with certain addons his map traversal becomes quite good, however he has engravings and lopro which make it possible to curve or get hits through pallets, which is the reason why I think his chase is way stronger than pigs dash, sure his curving does not work around tiles of all sizes and what not, but I would say it is definitely usable at more tiles than Pigs dash. Besides that it insta downs and can go through pallets, with lopro. (I think we are taking all addons into account considering how terrible pigs dash is without at least increased dash speed + combat straps or the addon that makes the dash charge faster.
Demos shred has a longer range than Pigs dash, it travels more than double the speed at 480% movementspeed and it has a charge up of only 0.65 seconds min. or around 1 second max for a max range shred, pig takes longer than that to even crouch, besides that he can kind of slides around some corner, for example the cars on bedham, sure his steering is limited, but he has quite a big hitbox, big range, zoning potential, basically no downside for the zoning and can easily cancle it, it is viable at man loops and can render even safer tiles like jungle gyms, shack or stronger pallet loops way less strong. His shred is great and many people seem to underestimated how good it actually is.
Onis power is probably the strongest in the entire game, high mobility, up to 180° flicks, insta down and what not, regulated only by time limitation, I have no clue why you would bring him up here.
Blights limited steering does not really hinder him because of the high speed and amount of bounces, bump logic gives you the possibility to hit someone around basically every tile in the game, there is a reason it is argued whether he or nurse is the strongest killer in the game, once again no clue why you would bring him up.
You could argue that wesker brings quite some game delay with the reverse bear traps, sure probably not even close to as much as Pig, but then again he is not limited in the amounts he can apply his game delay unlike pig, but the survivors have limited amounts of sprays.
Pig would be like around B tier at best with the changes to the crouching or standing dash, there is no way it would be overtuned... Especially if we reduce how effective the bear traps are... Besides that the changes would be so minimal it is hardly believable to talk about her kit being overloaded.
That's basically guessing, it is not like behaviour states that at any point, if you look at how every other killer with build in slowdown works they all have a power to get hits in chase besides that. Pig is basically the only one where most of the addons only revolve around the slowdown part however, besides that when playing a video game the main focus is and has always been the gameplay, you doing stuff, we seem to disagree at that part, but I truely think that what sets killers apart is how you play them, the main focus should be on the different gameplay, and the traps just don't add anything relevant to them in the way chase powers do.
I really could not care less about her original design, I want her to be a fun character to play as and against, in the best outcome she would be strong/above average with a fairly high skill ceiling that somewhat gets mirrored in how hard she is to play from a mechanical standpoint. And I basically want this as a general norm for killers, killer is hard to play, therefore he should be strong. The aspect of having something thematic in the game always tends to fade away when the gameplay does not really live up to it, I have seen some forum posts and people complaining about pig in the sense of her being so weak compared to other killers and them not seeing a reason to buy or play her, which is kind of sad, considering how fun her dash is to use and I always hoped they would make it stronger and focus less on the boring aspects of her kit like the beartraps, sure head pops can be fun, but it gets old after some time. When Chucky released I was somewhat disappointed because his power is what I basically hoped for Pig to be, not that long in range and all, but just a stronger ability while still being the same concept basically.
I don't really think that people still get attracted by her these days, she has been in the game for ages, but unless we can find some numbers of purchases for the chapters we can only guess. I really don't think making her dash longer in crouch and giving it to her while standings makes her that much more complicated, it is the same ability, all you need to learn about it is that it is more powerfull when you crouch, it really does not make her more complicated.
Sure but they tend to go the shortest possible way, just because you sometimes cannot afford to go the long way or because most maps are shaped in a way that doe not really offer many options to traverse.
Well at least we can agree on nerfing those things.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3599700#Comment_3599700
Wraith, Demogorgon, Hillbilly and the obvious m1 oriented killer like Plague without power, Ghostface, Myers and Oni without power.
I feel correct about this due to my experience and knowledge about this character and the tile design of dbd.
Ok so first things first, m1 killers don't count, because that's not a chase power like... What is even the point to mention them xD Technically Myers power is to basically have no heartbeat and get the hit before the survivor can react to that, but when you are already in chase you have nothing but the shorter vault.
I think Demogorgons and Hillbillys chase abilities are far better than Pigs dash, not even close. Sure around round loops Demos dash cannot be used as easily but still works fairly well to get a fast pallet drop.
With Wraith it is rather hard to tell, it feels like the increased lunge is almost comparable to pigs dash without addons, similarly you can use it around most shorter loops and even some medium sized ones... But yes they are somewhat comparable.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3599391#Comment_3599391
Again, I would like this part of her kit getting buffed. You are correct if there are interconnected tiles, the pig struggles. But don't other killers struggle there as well?
If you play Knight and Artist or Skull Merchant in a way that you just push survivors off a tile and hope they don't have a connect tile to go to then yes, but I never said this part of a killers kit is not problematic, you should not be able to just leave the tile and basically be safe, I would prefer it if counterplay worked a little bit different than that. Other than that feel free to name other killers that struggle in that sense, because most killers don't really need to zone survivors in that sense, they can just get a hit at that tile.
Great so we agree that the dash should be stronger, so why not have a longer dash during crouch and a standard dash from standing? What is the problem with that again?
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3598590#Comment_3598590
Now I feel insulted. I have 2k hours on pig. I mastered the moondashes and created a list on all invisible ambush hitboxes on any loop in dbd. I analyzed EVERY mechanical part of the pigs ambush and dare I say perfected that part of her power. The pigs ambush never got nerfed. It works as always. I know that. I use it. I can do all the tricks you mentioned. I DO THEM ACTIVLY IN MY MATCHES.
Now I have a question for you. Have you ever seen saw? John, Hoffmann or Amanda never interact with test subject directly. Saw is imemented perfectly in dbd. The traps have no interaction between killer and survivor because that's the hole point. The survivor has to overcome a struggle on their own.
If you don't like how the pig works, she's not for you. That's fine. I don't like blight, Nurse, or Wesker. We all have different taste of gameplay.
Pig feels very immersive and truthful to the movies. I think we should appreciate that and recall, what this game is about.
Ok my man so here you state they never interact with their test subjects directly, even Amanda/the pig not...
@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3599387#Comment_3599387
You still dont get it.
Only Amanda and Hoffmann rigged their trials. Therefore Amanda is fine how she is to interact with survivors. If the killer where John, it would not make sense fie him to interact with survivors during the test. It happens often in the movies, that the jigsaw killer is directly present during a game, but only to see if the rules are followed. They do interact with the test subjects. An example would be John shocking Gordon and Adam in saw 1. But rigging is limited to Amanda and Hoffmann. Or course they can interact with survivors.
Now to the traps. Did I not say that I would nerf the traps? Making a survivor unable to die while searching the box is a huge nerf to the pigs head pop potential. I'm all for nerfing the problematic addons as well. I dont use them. I get my head pops without them. Why? Because I understand the Rng and how to play around it.
Now to the next part. You say that playing around the traps means that you chase them crouched to get easy head pops correct?
Wrong, this is immensely time innefficient. I already stated how I play around traps above. I memorize where I hook survivors, then predict their route and count the time they needed already. Then I make a guess where they are and what is the final box they will check. Then I push them off. Is there no counterplay at this point anymore? Yes. The survivor lost. But let me ask you something. If their pathing is this easy to predict and I know how much searches they need (something that the survivors can know as well by paying attention), haven't they played badly? They already made their misplay. They made themselves too predictable. I had plenty of survivors that changed up their pathing to confuse me. Another thing a survivor can do is (and this sounds dumb) be good in chase. The pigs chase is very bad. She's an m1 killer with a situational chasing power. I've had plenty of teams that did 2,3 and rarely (map depended) even 4 gens before I got my first down. Playing around traps at this point becomes extremely hard to pull off if not impossible.
To the ambush. I think I can't convince you of how good the moondash is without video material. Sadly I can't offer you that. The Pigs model, during this move, doesn't change direction. It still looks like you go in the original direction. Positioning is key here. You need to know the max distance of the ambush and the speed difference between you and the survivor. If you position yourself and execute the moondash correctly, you will get the hit 90% of the time if the loop allows it. I can assure you, that loopslike the car park at garden of joy, the car loops on Haddonfield and Badham and even 4 lane walls can be outplayed with this move. I have very consistent results using it. All under assumption, that the survivor doesn't just pre drop the pallet. Then I'm an m1 killer.
Then here you tell me it is fine, can you for once decide? It is a difference between rigging the thing and interacting with people... If you say it is allowed to interact with, which is apparently not a thing in the movies then how exactly would it be an issue to have a dash that is not from crouching? Your argument was basically they only attacked from an unseen angle, however when you dash at someone at a loop you already know the killer is there, so this is already not the same, which is fine because it is a game and not the movie. But then you cannot bring this up for the standing dash, because if you already know the pig is there, and you can probably even somewhat tell where exactly then why is it that much a problem when she does the dash while standing?
No I don't necessarily mean that is the only way to get the head pops or interrupt them, but it is one possible way of doing it, while not directly interacting with them, I just tried to go along your point there of no interaction between Amanda and the survivor during the trial. If you just chase them normally and hook them again, maybe even bringing them further away from the boxes they did not search yet the value of interrupting them is not necessarily so high.
That completely depends on where and how the boxes spawn, the issue is depending on map you cannot really go out of your way to do the boxes in a different order just so to not be predictable, because it would waste so much time you might die from the beartraps... So it is not necessarily on them.
Yeah she has a bad chase power indeed, which is exactly why I would want to make the dash more usefull and nerf the traps if needed, because the interactive and fun part of playing killer, the chase, should be the main focus.
I don't need footage of how the moon dash looks like, it is reall not hard to pull off from a mechanical standpoint, getting a hit with it is however, especially if the survivor has line of side, and if the survivor is patient and knows what they are doing then you will sure as hell not get an easy hit on them just because your dash goes in the other direction.
The point is if the survivor plays the most effective way he will just deny you the usage of your power, which once again goes to show that her chase is awfull. He basically needs to allow you the chance of getting a hit on him for you to be able to do something, and that is once again terrible design.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3599391#Comment_3599391
That's why the ambush isn't good. If it where able to be used in every loop, the pig would be a very good chase killer. But then you need to balance the slowdown. The traps are the main part of her power. Therefore she's weaker in chase and is supposed to be more stealthy to get hits.
I'm not saying that the ambush is this impressive chasing tool that only some are able to use. It's a power that certainly has its skill cieling, but is very situational. In the situations it can be used though, it can outshine even other more chase oriented killers.
The Pig is most of the time an m1 killer.
I don't really know which killer that has an even decent chase power is supposed to be outclassed by Pig in the sense that there are loops she can get a hit around but he cannot... But feel free to tell me, maybe Freddy? But is chase is terrible anyway, and I would say Clowns chase is way better than pigs.
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@Axyierl said:
We all know that the chat censor is well.... clucky at best. Wouldn't it be a good idea to give us a choice to disable it? Honestly, me fighting against the censor to say a survivor's name (ESPECIALLY Yun-Jin her name is always covered) is more annoying than any salt other players give me
We already have an option for post game chat harassment so the censor being able to deactivate seems adaquate for an 18+ game...
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@MoNosEmpire said:
This map makes 0 sense at all. Random loops which don't connect and super tall walls so unless you have WOO you struggle to figure out what the loop is unless you've spent a lot of time on this map.
Is there any plans for a rework anytime soon?
And it is similarly bad for killer, since there is very little visibility and a lot of clutter and bad hit boxes, some of the bushes let hatchets go through others not, got hit quite often because I was like nah she is gonna hit the bush and then that one bush does not have collision, great stuff...
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@IamFran said:
Not nerfs, a complete rework.
She is still an absurd killer who doesn't mind the main survivor weapons against killers (pallets and windows) and also have high mobility and the "she is hard to use" excuse is too old at this point.
She minds breaking line of sight though, and unless you are really good on her is a nightmare to play on indoor maps, I like that her counterplay is unique and parts of the map that are usually useless are basically quite good against her, for example the edge map... I will however say that it would be nice if the maps offered more against her, as some maps have very limited high walls, basically leaving you with little to work with. However I think there is much you can do against Nurse and she is one of my favorite killers to go against.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3599382#Comment_3599382
Thas why i use johns medical file and combat straps every game. If they leave, they give me a free hit due to em uncrouching this fast. I force them to play my game. I weaponized the running away.
Pig still cant do anything against pre dropping. Thats why many players suggest that she should be able to break pallets with the ambush. Im not against that.
Unless there are connected tiles, which is more often than not the case, if you pre drop and position yourself properly there is very little you can do to still get the hit, if you sit right next to the pallet being able to be forced to vault it constantly sure you can something, but good survivors tend to not be in that situstion
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3598952#Comment_3598952
You dont get it.
First to the ambush. Invisible walls also punish Billy and Demo. Pig is just another one. This is not a Pig problem. It's a map problem. Survivors getting better means, that you have to get better. Incoming: the moondash. I can outplay a ton of tiles with it. My personal favorite being the busted car park on garden of joy.
Now to the traps. What can you do in dbd? You can harass players searching boxes and interrupt them. This is Amanda rigging their test for her personal agenda. This is subtle but wonderful adaption of the source material and probably why John Kramer will never get added to dbd without giving survivors God mode while removing traps.
You never kill survivors outright passively. Only some addons can do that on some maps. But that's more of an map problem. I want to stress that I absolutely dislike the idea of a survivor just dying passively without any work from the killers side.
Luckily this is not the case with pig. As OP has mentioned, the traps come off almost always on their own. This is intended I feel like. The traps should only become extremely lethal if the pig player interrupts and harasses survivors effectively. This is how I get my head pops on a dayly basis. I monitor the map, pin point the Rng and plan out the survivors path of searching all whole chasing someone else at the same time. Then when the time is right, I go to the correct place at the correct time and harass that survivor. Some perks can make this a lot easier. Bbq is the best for this, so you don't have to remember survivor movement that much. But in the last weeks I felt that I grew too reliant in it and played with Stbfl only. I won a majority of my matches. Not against weak survivors I like to add.
The traps are the strategic part of her kit, that can be lethal if USED correctly. The ambush is the mechanical part of her power that is supposed to help her apply those traps. Its still extremely good at a lot of loops if the player know the structures and how to use it effectively. I know almost all loops and how to use the ambush at them. Again, I played her enough.
So they never interact with the test subject directly during the trial is lore accurate, but basically chasing them with the head trap on is only rigging the trial? If that's not directly interacting then what exactly is???
Sure the walls also effect other killers but it is still a problem for pig in the sense that it limits cool stuff you can do on her, I did not say anything more than that.
Isn't the moon dash simply going backwards a wall by using left or right? Yeah sure, not really too hard and if the survivors know what they are doing and watching you closely or just leave the loop even that won't help you much.
I like how you contradict yourself within two sentences "you never", "only if"... If you use an absolute there are no exceptions, you might wanna use basically or almost or what not... The issue is that it is possible to happen but should, what was exactly my point, now some of the big maps have decreased in size but if you think about it if you bring yourself to a big map and then also use the addons you have quite a big chance to get a head pop without doing anything for it. As said before it is not the majority of cases, but it should not be like that to begin with, besides basically everyone playing her never using the dash and only bringing the head pop addons, because it works so well.
Your phrasing is a bit off on that last part... You don't use the traps correctly, it is impossible to use them incorrectly unless you don't use them at all, all you can do is put them on, however what you can do is play around them, which is not only super annoying to go against but can also leave the survivor with 0 counterplay, if the killer sits behind them crouched the timer won't stop, but they also cannot do the trap minigame because you will hit them otherwise, great gameplay indeed.
The dash is mediocre anti loop, it gets a bit better with the addons but basically still fully countered if the survivor just leaves the loop, and since most maps have a lot of connected tiles you cannot even bluff the roar and chase normally to get them into a dead zone.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3599370#Comment_3599370
It basicly works very similar. You hug an object very tightly and move your camera so that it looks for the survivor as if you move to the one side, but in the middle of the ambush you adjust your camera and start "moonwalking" mid ambush. Due to the survivor thinking that you will ambush in one direction, they will run in one direction. Therefore, if you time it correctly, they will literally run into you, resulting in a hit. This is hard because of invisible ambush hitboxes, but again, if you use it perfectly, it's really strong and can guarantee hits on most survivors. I'd even had comp survivors, real tournament players, go up against my pig and I downed them using this "tech". Using the moondash is the highest mechanical skill you can get out of pig and it is very satisfying to pull off.
I mean only if they don't just leave the loop, because it is the most basic easiest thing to do against pigs ambush... That's somewhat similar to Billy, sure he can curve you, but only if you let him and don't just predropp/run towards the next tile.
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@HugTechLover said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3599131#Comment_3599131
Difference of MMR. The lobbies I’m in, self care would be dodged, as would other “non-meta” perk builds.
Tough luck, guess you just need to last second switch via the different loadouts, problem solved.
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@HugTechLover said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3599085#Comment_3599085
“You will probably eventually find people who won’t dodge”
Enough said. Lol
Yeah because talking in absolutes about guesses is so much better than making an assumption and making it clear it is an assumption... Sure a way to go buddy.
Think about it from that perspective, assuming the mmr system is working properly, assuming you are in a really high mmr bracket and get matched with equally sweaty people with 10k hours each who all only care about escaping and nothing else, who only ever bring the strongest most busted stuff to matches, then you will probably have to wait quite some time until you won't get dodged anymore, but be in a normal bracket or matchmaking being as dysfunctional as it usually is most people you will encounter probably won't care at all, because they are tabbed out anyway and only tab in when the match starts or doing something else or whatever.
There are more than enough people in the game who don't really care about builds and what not you are bringing to the game and would not dodge, why even, they themselves probably also need to get this stuff done. Many people in the community are really helpfull with this and having a negative mindset that you would not want to add a feature just because you think everyone will only make the worst out of it is a great way to never change things, because everything could just turn into the worst possible case...
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@HugTechLover said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3599024#Comment_3599024
Why would anybody care? Self care users are some of the most despised survivors on the game. You’re telling me people wouldn’t dodge?
Irrelevant that you don’t get dodged the few times you used a meme build. It would absolutely still happen.
I mean maybe sometimes, but most likely not every single time... You will probably eventually find people who won't dodge, no matter what your build is, you could probably not run any perks and eventually people would not care. But as people mentioned before, the feature exists in mobile and people apparently don't have such issues there?
I think the vast amount of times it would not happen, and it is more than just a few times ^^ Let's go for a few hundred times ;)
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@RFSa09 said:
i don´t like the idea of removing something from the game and i love garden of joy visual design, but this map feels like 2x worse than before for M1 killers, a lot of players (at least in my mmr level) use GoJ map offering (or macmilliam/auto heaven), it´s just so boring, even when i play survivor because i can literally just abuse the god window and most of the safe pallets of the map
If it is as poorly designed gameplay wise as garden of joy then sure why not...
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@HugTechLover said:
It would increase lobby dodging by other survivors. All self care gamers would be endlessly dodged. Meme build people would be dodged. You get the point.
It would be a nice touch, but I think the possible negatives would outweigh the positives.
I mean, why would anybody care? Whenever I have to play some ######### meme build or something I tend to tell my teammates and I have never been lobby dodges because of that...
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@poujh said:
title. It feels weird having this empty slot in the top right corner of the screen
I feel the same, I would generall like to have the option to opt out of such UI changes, because this banner does nothing for me and I would much prefer to see how many pips are missing... Instead of having to go through opening that menue every time.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3598590#Comment_3598590
Now I feel insulted. I have 2k hours on pig. I mastered the moondashes and created a list on all invisible ambush hitboxes on any loop in dbd. I analyzed EVERY mechanical part of the pigs ambush and dare I say perfected that part of her power. The pigs ambush never got nerfed. It works as always. I know that. I use it. I can do all the tricks you mentioned. I DO THEM ACTIVLY IN MY MATCHES.
Now I have a question for you. Have you ever seen saw? John, Hoffmann or Amanda never interact with test subject directly. Saw is imemented perfectly in dbd. The traps have no interaction between killer and survivor because that's the hole point. The survivor has to overcome a struggle on their own.
If you don't like how the pig works, she's not for you. That's fine. I don't like blight, Nurse, or Wesker. We all have different taste of gameplay.
Pig feels very immersive and truthful to the movies. I think we should appreciate that and recall, what this game is about.
You used to be able to use dash to get on top of certain loops for example from the coal tower on the jungle gym next to it, but with some invisible walls added you cannot do that anymore, with survivors getting better there is just not the same potential anymore to pull this stuff off... It is not that the power got directly made worse but just Indirectly.
I saw one of them and found it a trash movie, doesn't change that I like the gameplay of the dash.
So if it was lore accurate, why exactly can you harass the survivors while doing the bear traps? Which is what many if not most players do and you are not hindered in any way or form, other than the timer not running during chase, which can easily be avoided.
I don't really if that is the point, but the idea that in a game you basically beat someone with 0 interaction that is just stupid, there is no gameplay involved, no skillfully thing you did to be proud of, dying just because of rng and being unlucky should never be a thing. Just because it is a certain way in a movie does not mean it will work in a game the same way.
Like I said before I like her ambush and the possibilities of it to use it around tiles, however I want the main focus to be the ambush dash because that is something you have control over, it is gameplay, the trap is not really... And in a game the main focus should be the gameplay and not something else, otherwise you might be more in favor of a interactive movie or just a movie.
I think we can still discuss about changes, just because the killer is lore accurate does not mean he is in best state for the gameplay this game offers, for me the game is all about the chase, the killer could be as lore accurate is possible, if the gameplay is not fun I could not care less... To focus on lore accuracy but not gameplay would be a terrible choice for anyone that does not play a character just to role play.
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@WiseTraveler said:
Every time a new killer is released if there is any sort of turn rate limit Mouse and Keyboard always figure out some sort of flick that allows them to go over the limit that is set. Meanwhile, on Console, you will always be limited by these restrictions and will not be able to pull off as many techs or flicks as a Mouse and keyboard player can.
I want the skill floor to be evened out. That way either both Mouse & Keyboard are restricted by the turn rate or they both are no longer restricted and are allowed to have even more skill expression in their killers.
That leaves us with two options
- Make it so that Mouse and Keyboard can't do crazy flicks that allow them to go over the restricted turn rate. This in turn would remove certain aspects of skill on Mouse and Key board and even the playing field with Console.
Or
- Lessen the restriction on turn rate for both Mouse and Keyboard so they can both do what would be a flick but is no longer a flick because its base kit added a feature to the game. This would even out the skill floor for both Mouse and Keyboard and Console to where they can both achieve the same stuff.
This leaves you with two questions
Should we restrict the skill expression for both sides and make a new skill ceiling? That is lower than the current on Mouse and Keyboard and has what is the intended fair gameplay.
Or
Should we make it so more people can pull off these flicks as base kit without having to do flicks and make very difficult powers to counter as survivors?
So first of all you constantly talk about skill floor, except for the last paragraph, but you mean skill ceiling right? Second you will always be at a disadvantage on console because the controller sticks will never be as precises as mouse and keyboard. The question is, if this was implemented how easy or hard would it be to pull off?
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@jonifire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/398655/pig-rework-idea
I would like that the traps get active, when the endgame collapse starts.
I wouldn‘t like a weaker crouch.
To needle stick ambush I have no real opinion, I think more abilities and a new status effect would also be nice.
Her ambush should be made better, faster to start, more movement speed and longer. Right now the survivor gets too much distance when you roar, that it isn‘t really worth it to use it. Instead just m1.
I want perks to interact with the box skill checks, it would be so nice.
Another post I think, described different challenges for the boxes, that would be nice, a little bit more variety in the mini games...
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@jonifire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3597489#Comment_3597489
Doesn‘t Clown already have something that makes your vision blurry and wouldn‘t that be the same, because you said it could give you motion sickness.
Probably and there are already people complaining about getting dizzy from it... And besides that I don't think it is a good mechanic regardless, because it does not really help you in chase that much, experienced survivors don't get bothered by it...
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@skylustv said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3598576#Comment_3598576
100% agreed, i'm a main Pig P100. traps should never be removed in the first trial
If you have a set amount of maximum searches what does it matter if they get removed first or not? The total amount of searches needed does not change?
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3598573#Comment_3598573
The bear traps are what sets her apart. That's her main focus.
She's the saw killer. Otherwise she could very well be any other stealth killer that surprises you.
The traps should be lethal. Otherwise there is no pressure. Also... The addons aren't even the worst part. If you get the correct Rng, you can get head pops very consistently. However, you as the killer has to work for it and use strategy and map awareness to harass effectively.
The traps are what makes her unique. She's the only killer that you can passively die to. And that's great. Not every killer has to focus on mechanical skill.
The game needs to have variety in killer design to have something for everyone.
The traps are the most boring part of her power, because aside from getting a down or putting them on you are not really doing something with them, you don't need to be skillfully to get value out of them, the killer does not really play differently if they have traps or not, only if you want to get rid of someone with a trap, and even then the gameplay does not really change compared to a normal chase unless you crouch follow.
See that's where I think it is terrible design, why would the main focus of a playable character be a thing that allows very little interaction instead of a mechanic you can learn and master to get some crazy hits? That's just awfully Boring...
So you think it is great design if someone just dies because you brought addons and they are on a large map and got unlucky with RNG? Like why even? You did not do anything special to achieve that, the guy won't be like oh I got totally outplayed, you just get a passive kill for doing nothing, that's just the most boring stuff ever, if you make great plays you will eventually get rewarded for them, but just getting a free kill without doing anything for it just because you brought addons and got lucky is just stupid.
Nobody says Pig is supposed to be as demanding as Hillbilly or Blight and require that amount of skill to use her power, but there are such cool things you could pull off or were able to in the past, if you look at some of Scorpionz old videos of what great plays were possible, that's something I would like to have back, a dash that is usable and allows for skill expression.
If you don't want to learn mechanical skill sure just don't use it and play as an m1 killer with lethal game delay, but I don't see a reason not to give her more strength in her chase. Especially if it still allows counterplay, because this kind of killer specific chase mechanics is what makes the game great.
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@Rigbeta said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3597489#Comment_3597489
I don't really get what you mean by the idea that "slapping a status effect blah" would have to do with a skill ceiling since you still have to make the hit and you have limited uses. I think her speed is fine, otherwise you just get Chucky or Blight, and why would you Pick between those characters if Pig does what they do but worse? You make adjustments and give her something that could give an interesting effect.
Also, Plague, Clown, Legion, Doctor, Nemesis, and more all effect screens of survivors in many ways, so I think if people with Motion Sickness or pee-baby syndrome are playing the game then they can handle it.
Besides that you can still kind of spam the needle rush because the vile only gets used on a successfully hit, so it is not even a risk reward kind of thing where you would need to be careful to only use it on hits you will most likely get to not waste your limited resource.
So basically all you need to think about is do you want a fast 2nd hit on the guy or not.
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@Rigbeta said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3597489#Comment_3597489
I don't really get what you mean by the idea that "slapping a status effect blah" would have to do with a skill ceiling since you still have to make the hit and you have limited uses. I think her speed is fine, otherwise you just get Chucky or Blight, and why would you Pick between those characters if Pig does what they do but worse? You make adjustments and give her something that could give an interesting effect.
Also, Plague, Clown, Legion, Doctor, Nemesis, and more all effect screens of survivors in many ways, so I think if people with Motion Sickness or pee-baby syndrome are playing the game then they can handle it.
If you just give her power a status effect on use you don't really give the player much more to learn, I think addons should increase possibilities of how to use the power, with this change however your dash does not become more versatile, it just adds an effect, which I just find really boring. Besides the point that the status effect is really strong... No rushed actions? Does this include medium vaults? So you basically slow vault everything... Great, easy 2nd hit... Sounds like a terrible status effect.
Sure you need to manage the Ressource, but the problem with pigs dash is that you cannot use it that frequently because it is way too weak and situational, so this does not get solved by that change.
I find it kind of sad that Pigs dash is so weak compared to what other killers can do, which is why I wanted to make it stronger.
Sure other killers have similar effects, however they are still annoying to look at and don't really do much to make the killer more fun to play or play against...
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3598454#Comment_3598454
Some are overtuned?
You mean addons or Rng?
Because both can have huge impact on lethality.
I meant not only specifically pig, I also find Sadako condom Ed somewhat overturned, when we look at how consistently the Morris are when we looking at Otz playing her, however I will admit that it might as well be because people are not playing against her properly.
As for Pig I find it ridiculous that like 70+% of her addons are only for the bear traps and not for the dash, which together with her crouch is basically the only thing that sets her apart from an m1 killer with build in slowdown... Some of her addons just make the bear traps way to lethal and i would find it the best thing to just keep them as slowdown and not necessarily as a really lethal tool.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3598453#Comment_3598453
No it wouldn't be.
First: Pig is not badly designed.
Second: this game is based around icons of horror. If the character from the franchise you enjoy doesn't fit in gameplay, the character will not be liked.
If Myers would have a rifle to shoot survivors, it wouldn't be Myers.
The Pig in the movies ambushes their test subjects when they least expect it out of the shadows. She doesn't just run at them when they know she's there.
Crouch into dash if fine.
The playability is still more important than the lore in the sense that a character that does not feel good to play cannot be saved by the great lore and how accurate it is. However a character the feels good to play can be loved by players who love the character as well as those who just play him because he is nice to play.
I didn't necessarily say she is badly designed, her addon design is for sure because they mostly revolve around the bear traps which is the most boring part of her kit since you cannot really do a skill full play with them, unlike the the dash.
Great so when you use the dash around a small object when already in chase the survivors suddenly don't know you are there anymore? See that's the point where I think to be accurate towards the lore is not that important.
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@jonifire said:
Ambush:
- She should be a bit faster in the ambush
- The roar animation should be shorter, before her ambush
- A version of ambush, while you aren‘t crouching
- When you crouched for some time you get a farer range with ambush
Perk/Boxes
I think skill check perks should work on her like huntress lullaby. Then the scream resets the box search could be removed.
New ability added
You could go in a locker (be undetectable in it) and ambush out of it. I think it would be a cool addition to her kit.
Traps
I think the timer is too long, almost everytime everybody gets his trap off before the timer has reached even half of his time.
The bear traps are supposed to be game delay, just like pinhead box or Sadako tape, generally speaking. They are not supposed to kill you normally, but for some reason some are overturned and therefore offer too much lethality.
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@radiantHero23 said:
I WAS SUMMONED! 🐽
Disagree with some of them.
Pig might seem weak in some instances, but with enough experience, the traps become a lethal weapon that destroys survivors.
They should not be buffed in any way. They are the reason for Pig's consistent high kill rate
Now to Amanda herself.
The problem with her stealth is how slow she moves. This combined with huge maps makes stealth very unappealing. Right now the best option is to use the John's medical file because it elevates her to 100%. Making her stealth maybe a bit faster would be good and not problematic in any way in my opinion. It helps with chasing and getting a first hit.
The roar if that's what you mean, is fine in length. It is connected to the charge up of the ambush. A great idea is to put the ambush on the attack itself and not the charge up. This makes survivors a bit more oblivious to when the attack is gonna start and therefore will make them want to leave the loop a little less often.
The ambush should always be connected to being crouched. Everything else would be very inaccurate to her lore and her appearance in the movies. (including Saw x, which I was finally able to see!!!) I do t think she needs more stuff added to her kit, which is already pretty full.
I dont like adding a synergy with perks like huntress lullaby to the jigsaw boxes. Again, the traps are very lethal in the right hands. Making it even harder for beginner players is not the way to go. In addition to that, there are a lot of addons that would destroy survivors for missing one or two skill checks. Not a good idea.
Now to your opinion on the timer. IN NO WAY SHOULD THE TIMER BE INCREASED! This would make her a extremely lethal for all the WRONG reasons. The reverse bear trap is the strongest slowdown in dbd period. Nothing comes close. Understanding box Rng and how to harass survivors effectively makes head pop not as uncommon as you think. With the correct Rng (1-3-4-4) I get a head pop almost every time. The time is already very limited if you have 4 searches. Making it longer would mean almost certain death for the unlucky ones getting these traps. Reverse bear traps should NEVER give you kills for free. They should however enable kills if you as the pig work for it and harass survivors.
I would even recommend a nerf to the reverse bear traps that will make them a lot weaker but in a fair way.
Survivors are no longer able to die while searching a jigsaw box.
This seems small, but would have a huge impact to the kill pressure of the reverse bear trap. There are several addons that make searching a box difficult for people that have problems with skill checks. There are also addons (gears) that make searching a box take a lot longer. With some combinations (double gears) (crate of gears + tempered timer) and a little interruption on a survivor having a 4 - search trap will GUARANTEE that this survivor dies. I'm not joking. I played her enough to know. Making it that a survivor cannot die of they are working on a jigsaw box (timer runs out but you won't die if your working on it) will make this problem less extreme. The survivor should however immediately die if the timer runs out and the search doesn't lead to the trap coming off.
Im neutral to the idea of the ambush being longer the longer you crouch. At most tiles, Amanda goes into her stealth, charges the ambush and attacks. This would mean that there is effectively no longer distance. It is already way better to stealth up to a survivor, uncrouch and hit them with m1 for Stbfl stacks. I don't think this would improve her performance that much, but it would also not make her weaker.
Same with ambush out of a locker. It would never be something you use in a match due to the time lost. Pig already struggles with huge maps. Incentivising her to stay in one spot to surprise a survivor will make her lose a ton of time, making it not worth it at all. Again, it would not nerf her, but it would not really buff her either. Same thing with dredge, who can enter lockers to surprise survivors. Its never useful.
What should she get to make her more effektive?
Faster crouch movement speed base
Faster ambuch charge up base.
Faster ambush dash speed.
Longer ambush dash speed.
(Maybe) the roar on the ambush not the charge up.
That's all. It will improve her chase a lot and not make her too oppressive in regard to her slowdown.
The lore is never a good reason to keep things that are bad design, and I think the dash while standing would be a nice element to her kit.
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@RareFantom47 said:
I think he's fine where he is, I mean, hitboxes and clutter are obviously an issue, but that's not a Billy problem, it's a map problem. I see the Overheat mechanic as fine, it isn't necessary, but I've never heard an actual reason why it was bad. I mean, sure cross-map Billy is now a risk because your chainsaw is put on a timer, but other than that, nothing.
It is an unnecessary mechanic that does not really serve any purpose but to waste addon slots for Billy and make him worse for no reason.
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@Rotfodder said:
So I've been getting the impression a lot of people feel Myers isn't keeping up with the other killers, and I don't know if I'm the person to weigh in on that or not cause I just like to play casually. All that said, I think myers would be tons of fun if t2 myers had undetectable and t3 myers had a massive terror radius, like 64m or something.
Would it work? Maybe. Would it be broken? Maybe. Would it be awesome and make myers fun to play and induce panic rushes halfway across the map whenever he bumped T3? Definately. IDK, I just think it could be really fun if BHVR felt like experimenting with something potentially crazy on a slow weekend.
When using the dead rabbit addon and or monitor and abuse your terror radius is already so small that it is neglectable, so the only thing the undetectable would add is the immunity against aura reading, fine I guess, but it would not make him that much stronger tbh.
They could increase his t1 movements peed to 110%,while giving the mirror addon for t1 105% so this does not become even more annoying to go against. And make it so stalk can regenerate, then we only need to get rid of tombstone piece and some of his useless addons and he is in a fine spot.
I don't think such a massive heartbeat would really help in any way.
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@Rigbeta said:
Power Tweaking and Additional Special Abilities:
Jigsaw's Baptism:
The Pig starts the trial with 4 Syringes and 4 Inactive Reverse Bear Traps.
While standing over a Survivor in the Dying State, press the active ability button to place an Inactive Reverse Bear Trap on a the survivor.
Reverse Bear Traps become Active when a Generator is completed, or when the endgame collapse starts.
Survivors can only free themselves from an Active Reverse Bear Trap by searching a Jigsaw Box for the correct Key.
Active Reverse Bear Trap:
When Reverse Beartraps become Active, they initiate a countdown timer. A Survivor with an active Reverse Bear Trap is automatically sacrificed when their timer expires or they attempt to leave the trial with the Active Reverse Bear Trap still attached.
Special Ability: Crouch
Press the active ability button to Crouch. While Crouching, The Pig moves at a moderately slower speed, but will move at a slightly slower speed after 5 seconds of uninterrupted crouching. The Pig is granted the Undetectable status effect while Crouched.
Special Attack: Ambush
Press and hold the attack button while Crouched to Dash and perform an Ambush Attack to injure a survivor by one health state.
Special Ability: Needle-Stick Ambush
Press and hold the secondary ability button while crouched to instead perform a Needle-Stick Ambush on a survivor. Successfully hitting a survivor will result in the Pig injecting the survivor with a Syringe, causing the survivor to become Drugged for 45 seconds.
A successful Needle-Stick Ambush removes 1 Syringe for the rest of the trial.
Special Ailment: Drugged
Survivors that have been Drugged will have a distorted view, a significantly slower turn rate, cannot perform rushed vaults, and be unable to wiggle while being carried by The Pig.
Drugged cannot wear off while a Survivor is in the Dying State or on a Sacrificial Hook.
I like the change to the crouch however I don't think slapping a status effect on the dash is a good idea... Besides that point that the blurry vision might induce motion sickness or what not.
I think the way to go is just to make the dash stronger.
I saw a post some time ago where the dash gets stronger if you have been crouched for some time before using it.
That would be one way.
The other thing I thought about is basically having a standing ambush that has its current strength and modifying the crouched ambush with a multi-plyer of like 1.5x or so... This allows you to use the standing dash if the m1 attack just wont reach and makes the crouched ambush more viable around safer tiles.
This gives pig more strength but also increasing her skill ceiling, which is basically always a good thing if a character gets more depth.
My problem with slapping status effects on special attacks is that it makes the character stronger without giving the player something to do or learn about it, sure you have a form of Ressource management there, but that's all, it does not make the dash more viable around certain tiles or means you have to learn how and where to use it now.
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@Lemonwolf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3597340#Comment_3597340
Basically it is like that already in some areas. At least the game is shifting in that direction, to give survivors more control over what happens to them without the killer being able to do much about it. My suggestion could always be altered in a way that would introduce a timer of sorts so survivors could not abuse their control. And as mentioned Killers could be replaced by Bots or players who want to play still could if they do desire. Oh, i have seen worse ideas on this forum.
The devs don't want this game to be somewhat single player, so to focus around bots as killers will not happen.
And what are all the other killer players supposed to do? Want them to go play on private servers?
And against bots you would not even need that full control thing because bots are so bad you should never go down against one...
I have not seen a worse idea but whatever, at least this will never happen so there is no point in further discussing anything like that.