AlwaysInAGoodShape
AlwaysInAGoodShape
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Laceration should honestly be dependant on the distance from which the knife was hit, with short range hits taking only 10-12 seconds to start decay, where as far range shots taking up to maybe even 25-30 seconds, scaling linearly based on the last knife hit. That way, long range shots can feel more impactful, but short range shots do remain to have counterplay for survivors if the Trickster messes up too much
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@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4066303#Comment_4066303
Until you find out you can just recycle one drone for infinite undetectable…
For normal gameplay it's simply worse, less stealth early game and less stealth during chases. Otherwise you get same result for more effort, where she really wasn't in spot for such nerfs imo.
Less stealth in chases? You just confessed she can have permanent stealth. If you don't have permanent stealth, it means you aren't utilizing her to her fullest. A lot of Skull Merchants today don't even utilize half of her strategies. Recall undetectable has added so much more depth and potential to her, but yes, she's nowhere close to finished. How she injures/could down people with drones should also be looked at
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@claysgaming said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4066199#Comment_4066199
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4066199#Comment_4066199
I get your point, but SM already doesnt get enough value out of drones. They dont down you like Artist crows for example. And the single beam along with missing stealth mode makes drone hacking way too easy because the beam is so easy to avoid. This is a huge bottleneck in her power, no matter the buffs. Not to mention that rotating drones was also possible back when she had 2 scanlines. I would say keep the haste the same so players actively rotating them also get value out of it
I believe the drone injuring mechanic should be changed entirely, and she should be able to take both healthstate with the drones, but the injuring should be tied to changing the drone rotation not to the basic rotation in general, with more details to make it healthy in chases
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@whirlwind931123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4066355#Comment_4066355
With the steep learning curve, why learn Trickster when I could just learn, Nurse, Blight or Billy? With these difficult killers, they have to be at least A+ tier for it to be worth learning them because you have to grind hundreds of hours on them. I could learn how to play Trickster but I would be stuck playing only Trickster, which is why the pay off for learning these difficult killers has to be high.
For the people that actually enjoy the killer for its unique and satisfying playstyle, and don't pick a killer purely just to win, as in such cases, you'd always gravitate to Nurse or Blight.
But as the character roster expands, the value of a killer as the "strongest" killer increasingly diminishes, as less killers can be considered exactly that, and their value becomes how they stand out from the other, so that each killer increasingly satisfies it's own niche in gameplay.
With Trickster being an inherently high skill-cap killer, I am in fact all for making him stronger. Literally. I'm all open for ideas. Just not in the exact way that would reduce his interactivity, and I think if the community got creative with buffing the Trickster, there'd be a hundred different ways in which we could make killer a powerhouse, while leaving healthy counterplay in-tact. All we have to do is not succumb to the uninspired idea to simply make him 4.6 with 44 knives, and we can create the coolest and healthiest version of Trickster we've ever had. -
@Geist said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4066436#Comment_4066436
The idea that LOS breaks “barely matter” at 4.6 ignores a core part of Trickster’s design—he is not a standard melee killer during his power. When he’s throwing, he slows down to a speed below survivor movement. That means LOS blockers don’t just “buy a little time”—they actively disrupt his ability to maintain pressure, force him to reposition, and often reset laceration. That interaction exists regardless of whether he’s 4.4 or 4.6.
At 4.4, that slowdown becomes even more punishing. You’re not just interacting, you’re falling behind. Survivors don’t need to outplay you in a meaningful way; they just need to reach cover, and the numbers do the rest. That’s not skill expression—that’s a built-in disadvantage. You’re also framing this as if survivors are only succeeding through skill, while ignoring how much the current game state already favors them. Survivors have faster overall generators(and busted generator perks), longer hook timers, Map clutter and high pallet density (especially with lingering issues like 2v8 tile generation), and extremely efficient perks with low skill requirements
Take something like Sprint Burst, there’s no complex execution there. You press run and immediately gain massive distance, often enough to reach a strong tile safely. That’s not high-level interaction, that’s free value. Stack that with endurance perks, second-chance mechanics, and strong map resources, and survivors already have a very forgiving baseline.
And that’s where the problem lies: you’re asking Trickster to operate at a disadvantage on top of all of that, while calling it “healthy.”
The argument that “you deserve to lose if you’re worse” sounds fair on paper, but ignores asymmetry. Killers already have to manage four players, map pressure, and macro decisions. If the killer also has to play near-perfectly in chase just to keep up with baseline survivor advantages, that’s not balanced, that’s excessive demand on one role.
Also, the comparison to Legion-like gameplay is still being overstated. Trickster at 4.6 doesn’t suddenly become brainless, he still requires accuracy, tracking, and decision-making with his knives. His identity doesn’t disappear just because he can move at standard killer speed. What it does do is remove the reliance on perfect execution just to stay relevant.
And while it’s great that you’re seeing improvement and enjoying the learning curve, that doesn’t mean the design is broadly healthy. A killer can be rewarding to master and still be overly punishing or inaccessible to the majority of players. Those two things aren’t mutually exclusive.
At the end of the day, we’re prioritizing different things, you’re prioritizing preserving a high-skill identity, even if it raises the barrier significantly. I’m prioritizing making sure the killer feels functional and fair across all skill levels, not just in the hands of dedicated specialists.
I think we’ve both made our positions pretty clear at this point.
This will probably be the last time I respond, I’ve got other things I need to get to, but I do appreciate the discussion.
I am not necessarily prioritizing high-skill identity perse, but I do prioritize bringing killers to a state where their power has dynamic play, meaning that both the killer's power feels meaningful, as well as the survivor's input against it.
For some killers that can mean the power is very accessible, like with Huntress, or even Blight's power is rather accessible. Yet my argument would be this; killers like nurse cannot be balanced for casual players. It must remain as a high skilled player for her gameplay to remain somewhat interactive. That's not because I want that; It's because it's the only option for her to be healthy. It is core to how she works as a killer, intrinsic due to her design.
My argument for the Trickster is the same as with the Nurse, for him to be a healthy killer, that CAN be fully enjoyed by all players playing him and facing against him, he must be a high skill cap killer, and there is no way around it, at least not without destroying the interactive side for survivors.
However, with the Trickster, we do have extra opportunities to make him more accessible; Not through the frequent go-to fixes proposed by the community that ruins interactivity, but by things that both buff the Trickster yet make Survivor counterplay more meaningful.
That's why for example, I'm a big advocate of giving Trickster 12 knives back when he picks up a survivor. This eliminated the amount of time he needs to go to lockers, depending on how well he has been playing.
You could make it so, that each time Trickster gets a 1% movement speed buff whenever injuring/downing a survivor, up to a max of 5%, but make him lose that movement speed upon reloading at a locker. That way, we attach any movement speed buffs the Trickster may receive to how long Trickster can last without running out of knives, which would be healthier for the game, because doing so would make any dodge a survivor does more significant, which is how I think trickster could be buffed while kept healthy.
And especially if you dislike following scratchmarks; one of the most common moments where you chase scratchmarks for a long time is where you need to kick a gen when someone runs away, just to then have to follow them while massively behind, and losing half a generator in the progress without interactions. All that boilerplate time could be eliminated if Trickster could start regression actions with his knife themselves, which would help beginner, medium and adept tricksters all while leaving the core chase gameplay in a healthier state.
Why wouldn't you be an advocate for that instead?
All I really ask is to look at Trickster in the same way we as a community have been correctly looking at other killers, and for Trickster that is similarly to Nurse. Yes she is harder to learn, but the learning will be worth it, and you will love it once you're a master of it. We cannot buff Nurse to make her as accessible to everyone unwilling to learn her without ruining the survivor experience and interactive counter play, and we should be glad that we haven't, because today, any honest person can feel happy to play as, as well as against the nurse in her current state. And the game is better for it overall as the result of that -
@Geist said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4066429#Comment_4066429
The idea that 4.4 creates “healthy interaction” falls apart when you look at how survivors actually play against it. A 4.4 killer inherently gives survivors more time to reach stronger tiles, chain loops, and extend chases—not because of skillful outplay, but because of a raw movement disadvantage. That isn’t meaningful interaction; that’s passive time gain.
In other words, survivors aren’t always “outplaying” the Trickster, they’re just outpacing him. This becomes especially noticeable at mid-to-high MMR, where survivors understand pathing and pre-running. Against a 4.4 Trickster, they can pre-drop and rotate earlier, Greed distance between tiles more safely, and force longer chases simply by holding W. That doesn’t increase interaction it reduces it to a time stall. The Trickster is then forced to compensate by landing near-perfect knives just to keep up, which reinforces the exact problem: excessive reliance on execution.
So instead of both sides making meaningful decisions, the dynamic becomes something like this:
The Survivor gains time by default.
The Killer must play near perfectly to compensate.
That’s not healthy balance, that’s asymmetrical pressure skewed too far in one direction.
At 4.6, survivors still have counterplay, dodging, line-of-sight breaks, tight movement, but they can’t rely as heavily on passive distance alone. They actually have to engage with the killer’s power more directly, which increases meaningful interaction rather than reducing it.
And this ties back to accessibility: a 4.4 Trickster doesn’t just “reward skill,” it demands it at a baseline level that many players can’t realistically meet aside from the best. That’s why judging the killer off top players is misleading, those players can overcome systemic weaknesses that most of the playerbase cannot.
So if the goal is a healthy killer survivors should win chases through decisions not just time gain, killers should succeed through skill but not require perfection to function. 4.6 helps rebalance that relationship without removing Trickster’s identity or skill expression it just prevents survivors from abusing his base speed as a built-in advantage.
And honestly, I think this is where our perspectives split. You prioritize limiting the killer to preserve survivor agency, while I prioritize ensuring the killer isn’t inherently disadvantaged in ways that feel frustrating or inaccessible. I don’t think either of us is going to fully convince the other here and that’s fine. I can’t convince you, and you can’t convince me. Shall we just agree to disagree on this topic?
LOS breaks aren't really relevant at 4.6, considering at that speed it isn't difficult to quite literally make it to the back of a survivor with ease, as is the point of melee killers. LOS blockers will therefore barely buy any time, as Trickster can continuously make their way to survivors like a melee killer can.
"it demands it at a baseline level that many players can’t realistically meet aside from the best. "
This is not true. A lot of beginner Tricksters or medium tricksters will indeed struggle, but mainly because they are facing Adept-veteran survivors. And guess what, if your Trickster is worse than someone Else's survivor, you deserve to lose. Beginner survivors or even some medium survivors have significantly more problem finding the proper loops/pallets, often run in open/dead zones where the trickster can easily mow down players, and aren't tightly hugging loops, like adept survivors.
The Tricksters who push this idea are those who do in fact that their mid Trickster should beat an Adept survivor, which is inherently unfair, but yes, a legion like Trickster would accomplish that, because the chases become mostly meaningless from the survivor's side.
The total perfection at which you'd have to play Trickster is also over stated. The only time you'd ever have to play at near perfection, is when the survivors are also playing TO perfection. So I don't really see why if survivors would have to play to perfection, you wouldn't have to hold that yourself to that same standard in order to win against them
Keep in mind people will often have thousands of hours completely trying to perfect survivors. As a Trickster, in it's current state, you wouldn't even need half of that to be able to dominate in similar lobbies
"And honestly, I think this is where our perspectives split."
I do agree, thought I wish you'd see that we can help these struggling Tricksters in different ways that are healthy to the game. Because Trickster will also feel significantly better to play if he is simply stronger overall. When he has more tools to prevent gens from flying, even as aspiring Trickster mains are still learning the killer. I also belong to the category of a "struggling" or learning Trickster, and personally have been able to get better results just practicing over the few days the Rework has been out and have already been able to see significant results, evidently playing against good survivors, who have a lot of tricks in the books, from mind games to pallet vacuum-like tricks to get stuns, while I'm evidently nowhere near the level of a Trickster than they are at the level of Survivor. And I do personally find it aspiring that this Killer has so much to offer for those that are willing to learn him properly. I would personally feel very sad if we buffed Trickster in the wrong way, that takes away from his high skill identity, as making him a killer that survivors rightfully despise, also, in my opinion, takes away some of the fun of playing him, especially knowing that (assuming the Legion-like Trickster) these aren't the type of chases they log on to this game for, and even wouldn't be playing if this was the predominant experience they would have with this game. I feel like that would take something away very important
Keep in mind both of us are in camp Buff Trickster, but just in different ways -
@Geist said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4066367#Comment_4066367
I want to clarify my position I am advocating for the 4.6 speed increase because I want trickster to feel better for both older and more experienced players, and be more approachable for newer players who want to experiment with all the different killers. I really like the trickster as he is unique compared to other killers both in style(figuratively and literally) and with his power. I want this killer to be a part of this game, and not be forgotten in some dark corner of the game.
Firstly, pointing to players like Wacek doesn’t prove the killer is healthy, it proves that highly specialized players can overcome weaknesses through extreme mastery. That’s true for almost every killer in DBD. If balance is judged by the top 1%, then nearly every weak or clunky killer could be labeled “fine” which clearly isn’t the case. A killer should not require near-perfect execution just to feel functional.
Second, calling it a “skill issue” ignores how disproportionate the punishment is. The lowered blade count and reliance on perfect laceration upkeep means that small mistakes, something unavoidable for mid to low level players, are punished far more harshly than before. This isn’t just raising the skill ceiling, it’s raising the skill floor to an unhealthy level. A good design should reward mastery without making the baseline experience frustrating or inaccessible.
Third, the idea that 4.4 speed creates “interaction” is misleading. In practice, it often removes interaction by forcing Trickster into chasing scratch marks for way too long and overcommitting to stay relevant in chase. Survivors don’t gain meaningful counterplay, they just gain time. And against competent survivors, that extra time translates into reaching stronger tiles, extending loops, and completed generators, which already hurts the trickster.
At 4.6, Trickster wouldn’t become “Ranged Legion” again, because his identity isn’t tied to his movement speed, it’s tied to his knives, accuracy, and Main Event. Increasing his speed simply allows him to stay competitive in chase without over-relying on perfect knife uptime, recover from small mistakes (which all players make, me included), and feel both responsive and fluid rather than punishing and rigid.
Fourth, your argument about “tricks” actually supports a 4.6 buff rather than contradicting it. Skilled shots through gaps and long-range pressure are optimal optimizations, not core requirements. Right now, they feel mandatory just to keep up. A 4.6 speed would let those mechanics remain high-skill expressions instead of baseline necessities.
Finally, accessibility matters. A killer that only feels good in the hands of dedicated specialists is not a healthy design for the game. Trickster should reward mastery, but he should also be approachable enough that newer and mid-level players can engage with his mechanics without feeling punished for every mistake. Right now, the rework has shifted too much burden onto execution. A 4.6 movement speed doesn’t “dumb him down” it stabilizes his baseline so that skill expression becomes a bonus, not a requirement for basic functionality.
So far you've still completely ignored what healthy game-design is. Fact of the matter is that a basekit 115% Trickster is indeed an uninteractive killer, in which consistent chasetimes are guaranteed. This means that for the survivor, most of their gameplay is predominantly meaningless. That is indeed where this whole issue of reworking trickster began, and it is also uniquely why Trickster must indeed be a high skill killer to be healthy to the game.
He does however not need to be weak. He can be buffed in many other ways that don't dumb down his chases and reduce it to being a ranged Legion;
We can reduce boiler plate reload times by giving him 12 knives back whenever picking up a survivor, allowing him to sustain himself on knives for very long if played right, without losing the ability of running out of knives by letting max capacity untouched.
We can allow him to regress gens by throwing a knife at them to start the regression, so that he doesn't have go to kick and chase those scratch-marks as you suggested to catch up, but can instantly enter the chase, significantly improving his map pressure.
There are many such ways in which the Trickster can be buffed, where his chases remain a real and interesting game-mechanic, rather than a guaranteed run-down that has been unanimously hated among the survivor community (may I say the largest player-base in this game), so if we can turn Trickster into a strong killer, while also letting his chases remain a skillful display, where survivor counter input is significant, due to their ability to punish Tricksters that screw up in a meaningful manner, I'd say that is absolutely worth it. Because that is healthier for the game overall.
That means 4.4 base speed. 36 max capacity so he can run out realistically, proper laceration decay, and buffs in many other departments, both that make him more accessible to newer players without destroying the chase.
Because we can actually make this killer work without ruining him for 80% of our community (the survivor base). And that does mean a Trickster that can fail. A trickster where hitting knives is not an optional Side-quest. A trickster where survivor's gameplay is more significant. The Trickster we have right now.
What we need for him plain and simple is buffs that don't dumb down his chase, and there are many ways in which we can achieve that -
I personally believe a proper skull merchant rework should meet the following criteria:
1. It removes the "Sh#t a drone" effect. Which is where Skull Merchants get free value in chase without really doing anything, while survivors have to crouch and try other advanced things without input from SM. (Basically getting value without having to do anything actively herself)
2. (DEPRECATED) doesn't create a 3 gen situation.
Now number 2 isn't relevant anymore because of the gen regression limit, which makes things easier
I think your first idea is great. Adding a more severe penalty for hacking drones could really help. I would personally make it the exposed status effect, especially because it pairs perfectly with her ability to gain stealth when recalling a drone (which was an incredible good idea by Pixel Bush)
I also agree with creating more visibility with scanning. I would make it so that each time a drone scans you, it reveals the aura of that survivor for a full rotation of a single scan line. Even if they're working on a generator, and remove any form of invulnerability from scans, but remove the ability of scans to injure/cause slow down
Then I would make drones being able to injure non-crouching survivors after Skull Merchant changes the spin direction on the drone. Whenever SM changes direction, she slows down. Why? Because now you have a balanced chasing mechanic with proper counterplay, that the SM has to work for actively, and doesn't give her free injures due to her slowing down, if a survivor predicts the rotation change, so I partially agree with crouching not affecting aura scans, and would keep it only for injure scans, and in this case, rotation changes could both injure and down survivors in 1 single go. (After hitting a survivor, you wouldn't instantly be able to change direction of course, but it would have to finish a full rotation again before it's possible to alter it again) -
@Geist said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4066355#Comment_4066355
I don't think I have ever heard an argument with so many disprovable points.
Firstly, with your huntress comment, yes the huntress can play around the pallet just like literally every other killer in the game. The rock paper scissors gameplay is done by every killer not just ranged killers.
Second "impactful trickster counterplay", Your first argument gives the survivors a free escape, and it's not especially hard to run out against a good survivor because of the ammo nerfs. Blade decay SUCKS especially in its bugged state. As a slower then normal killer playing around structures that you can't shoot over or through results in you being unable to do anything as you watch your power disappear. Then your last point is just pre running, that while it is impactful is boring for both sides and does not produce interesting gameplay
"Many people here would call the current rework a Nerf" Because it is. I will admit I have not mastered trickster the same way Wacek has, I still have a ways to go. But I understand the killer after playing him for a long time, I can make shot through small gaps, and I can say without a doubt that this is an overall nerf. If I put on my best rose tinted glasses him being 4.4 is fine since he is a ranged killer, but when you actually play the game with this speed all you will see for a while are survivors scratch marks for five minutes because you. just. can't. catch. up. anymore. Trickster is certainly lethal we both agree on that point, but the drag of slowly waddling after survivors who have pre ran across three state lines is not enjoyable in the slightest. Lets also not forget you are chasing one survivor while the other three are working on generators so you are just losing ground at an alarming rate.
Oh yea where are the "tricks" you keep talking about because the only trick I see anywhere in his kit are the trick knives add on which makes his blades bounce once. His holy trinity has gone from three to one(and trick knives are nerfed to one bounce only). All the other stuff in his add ons and kit aren't really tricks he just gets stronger as the game progresses and if he is a good player he gets main event really fast.
Experienced trickster mains with hours upon hours of mastering the killer might as well be Dio from JoJo with their ability to turn healthy survivors into whimpering lacerated lumps on the floor. You would have to nerf this killer so far into the ground if you want to stop top trickster players like Wacek from converting survivors health states to past tense.
I know that you mean well, and I agree that trickster should reward more skilled plays and learning the killers quirks and mechanics. But as he is right now he will just fade away into obscurity after a week or two because the current stats(especially the 4.4 movement speed) will be ridiculously punishing against halfway decent survivors who know how to play the game.
Also I'm gonna be honest the devs probably aren't even listening to us, as they let the obscene fast track to live servers even though many people said this would be game ruining. They are going to ignore this like how they ignore any sort of feedback nowadays. So don't worry, you'll get to keep your nerfed trickster shape.
"Your first argument gives the survivors a free escape"
It is not demonstrably false. Good Trickster players like Wacek have shown they can consistently keep up their lacerations, even at the current rates. If anything, it has proven that people running out of knives or lose to decay suffer from nothing but skill issue. The people that think "there's nothing they can do but watch their laceration decay" simply lack the knowledge on how to prevent it, and when to fire. If top players would have failed, I would have agreed with you, but they aren't, and we have no excuse either other than needing to learn
""Many people here would call the current rework a Nerf" Because it is."
It isn't, and current emerging winstreaks are providing us with increasing proofs. It is definitely a skill ceiling shift, as demonstrated in this graph, because the killer no longer plays itself, like it does on 4.6, and has become more than just a ranged legion.
"Oh yea where are the "tricks" you keep talking about"
The current update has done a phenomenal job at adding tricks, by making long range shots, as well as short ranged shots through thin gaps valueable by making it increase your style points for your main event. Previous dumbed down versions of Trickster lacked all of this dept. You were simply meant to run down survivors with bad accuracy and they would fall eventually. This is no longer true. Now you can't play the Trickster as Ranged Legion anymore. You have to play the Trickster as the Trickster.
I've also detailed some of the "Tricks" in my own post, that also aim at advancing Trickster as a high skill cap ceiling killer and buffing him areas that don't negatively affect the depth of his chases: ⸻How I'd REWORK the Trickster (A Full Coherent Rework, Unmerged) — BHVR
"You would have to nerf this killer so far into the ground if you want to stop top trickster players like Wacek from converting survivors health states to past tense."
The killer in fact doesn't have to be nerfed. I've already seen survivors being able to put up a fight with Wacek, both through pathing, and dodging, all privileges that were able to happen as a result of him being 4.4 instead of 4.6 as base-speed
In fact, I do not believe Trickster does need to be nerfed in the current state. At a comp level he could even receive some buffs in other creative areas, but not in the areas that would dumb him down, such as max knife capacity, or base-movement speed
"I know that you mean well, and I agree that trickster should reward more skilled plays and learning the killers quirks and mechanics."
I in fact believe that in this main chase state is the only way for him to be healthy, which is especially why, in buffing Trickster, we do so in other creative aspects. Killer instinct for example has been absolutely great, and has allowed skilled Tricksters to close down games. That's what I believe is the level of creativity we need for this killer to turn him into a healthy success. In those areas he definitely deserves his buffs, but not in areas where we destroy his interactive gameplay for the survivor side, because that's what got us into the issue of reworking OG trickster originally in the first place, and what we need to avoid doing in the future -
DEVS, DON'T GIVE IN TO PRESSURE
Trickster has always been a troubled killer. A killer that made many lobbies DC due to the Trickster failing to create a healthy level of interactive counter play, ruining the experience for survivor. He was essentially another Legion; one where chases aren't really that impactful and you're gonna get run down eventually, no matter how good you are. With the Trickster being able to apply that same logic to 2 health state has made him a well hated killer among the survivor community. So why did he fail where other killers didn't?
A perfect example of interactive counterplay is Huntress;
Let's look at a smaller loop. If the Huntress just walks through a pallet, she'll catch up to a survivor and hit them.
If a survivor drops the pallet, they can stun the huntress.
The huntress can in turn counter this by faking walking through a pallet and pulling up her hatchet ready to throw it over the pallet when it's thrown down
The survivor can counter this by faking throwing a pallet and keep running.
The huntress can counter this by faking pulling up the hatches and just running through like she did at the start.
This rock paper scissor gameplay is what creates interactive gameplay, and why huntress is one of the beloved killers of this community, and that is where older versions of Trickster failed.
But what would interactive gameplay looks like for Trickster? Because dodging a single hatches can feel impactful, but dodging a single knife just to be hit by the next and having zoned yourself surely isn't it.
Well, there are multiple things that can make playing against the trickster more impactful:
- The ability for the Trickster to run out of knives
- Having blade decay be a serious mechanic that survivors can realistically utilize
- Having distance from the killer due to them having a lower movement-speedAll of these things have the potential of turning the Trickster into an interactive gameplay killer. Now there's a problem. Have you noticed a lot of the feedback on this thread?
More knives, more base movement-speed, longer laceration decay timer…
The suggestions from the majority have been everything that would ruin interactive gameplay for the Trickster, and would turn the Trickster into yet another Run Down ranged legion…
But this monster has been our own creating. Because this Trickster-Legion has been the temporary solution for the Trickster rework; 8 blades to make chases last longer, but essentially guaranteed downs, and high blade counts. Sure it is "balanced". Having essentially guaranteed similar chase times and guaranteed downs are balanced but they aren't fun, nor interactive, yet it has trained many beginner players on their perception of what Trickster-Legion is;
Many people here would call the current rework a Nerf, which for many beginner players it is. Because the current, extremely well done rework (that is a net buff) has killed the un-interactive Run-Down Trickster hated by the survivor community. This means Trickster now is no longer a ranged legion, but a careful accuracy machine full of tricks, with deadly blades, trained on re-aiming corners and map knowledge as well as knowledge of survivor's pathing to efficiently take down survivors.
For the true trickster mains, it is the true prediction, around every corner, to predict whether, based on the distance, they will be able to hit a knife, and where that survivor will be located, so they can preferably pre-aim at that location. Consequently, for survivors, to fight this Trickster it is in their best interest to be unpredictable with their pathing to screw up the Trickster's pre-aim as many times as possible.
For the first time, we have interactive gameplay for a killer that used to have none. Not only that, but the Devs have been able to do so while making the rework a NET BUFF to the killer, one that is accessible for anyone that's willing to let go of the hated Run Down Trickster-Legion and usher in the area of the True and unique Trickster playstyle.
In the charts above, you can see the old learning curve, as well as the new learning curve, a net buff, in which the red zone exemplifies the "complaint zone", aka people who have yet to learn the Trickster as more than a Run-Down legion and will have to learn the real Trickster, and the green zone, the GOATED zone, for tricksters who are one with trickster and have decided to learn the killer properly, and are able to see why he is stronger.
My argument is, that even though the complaint zone looks big, from the previously brained legions dressed as Tricksters, many of these people and their complaints, would actually change, once they realize that the green zone exists. Even though the Devs might see negative feedback around the current Trickster, many of these players might change their minds upon realizing that if they properly learn this killer, they would be stronger than they could ever be with 4.6 44 Trickster-Legion.
I myself had to go through this experience as well. As someone who didn't play Trickster until the rework, my first experience was brutal too; getting pre-ran, running out of knives, seeing my laceration decay. The answers seemed simple… yet couldn't have been further from the truth.
All of the things I would've complained about weren't a flaw with the killer, but were simply attributable to being a skill-issue. Both seeing proper Trickster players perform so well has inspired me to try to actually learn this killer properly too, and even just over the course of a couple of days, I have been able to get my first dominating games. This of course requires one to truly want to be a Trickster, which requires you to also understand what it means to think like a Trickster; leaning pre-aims at corners, like shack, judging distance and estimating when you will get peeks. Learning flicks and understanding the delay time between when you press your blade and when it's trajectory is actually decided for flicks. The depth to this killer are not only insane, they are extremely fun! That is why I'm truly a fan of the "Trickster is a killer for the perfectionists"
It is also in this fun state, where the Trickster has interactive gameplay. Remember the Huntress story from earlier? Interactive gameplay with the current Trickster exists due to his lower maximum knife count, higher laceration, lower base movement speed, all things that adds to giving survivors more value for dodging and playing well, as well as being unpredictable with their pathing at Trickster's favourite pre-aiming spots
Due to the Trickster's design, dodging blades can only ever have some significance if the Trickster is forced to play at this higher skill ceiling. It is the only place where interactive gameplay can exist, unlike killers like huntress, where interactive gameplay can also exist at lower skill levels. It's therefore my belief that all killer powers, however they are designed, should be balanced around where their gameplay remains interactive. For some, that means that they are very accessible , for some killers, like Krasue where little interaction exists, should simply be nerfed, and where killer's interactivity is great, like Blight, his power can be celebrated by many. What that means for Trickster is that he can only ever be healthy for the game, if he is implemented as a high skill-cap killer, and that is something all of us Trickster players can celebrate, because this means that any of us can make him shine, if we're willing to put in the practice to learn what makes this killer unique.
That's why I hope that the Devs don't succumb to pressure and turn Trickster into yet another ranged Legion and embrace him for what makes him unique, as even I myself, in lesser knowledge would've advocated for the wrong things; more knives, more free base-kit movement-speed, slower laceration. Many of them simply don't know any better yet, myself from the past included. They are still in the Red Zone from the chart and simply don't know any better than to think the killer got nerfed in this patch, as being Legion brained can easily make you think. But once they take the time to learn this killer, for all that makes the Trickster unique; a perfectionist killer full of Tricks, they will have a true monster on their hands~ -
The perk mostly helps people as they're learning the game, and with pallets having become a lot more balanced and mindgame-able it's not as useful as it's used to be. Just a great pick for all learning players overall. And considering the learning curve for a randomly generated map, that means a lot of people will be learning for a very long time
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@claysgaming said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4066314#Comment_4066314
Disabling drones should be harder or have a penalty, idk, maybe a non injuring clawtrap? (Like her iridescent addon, her power is a tracking ability anyways, right?)
I agree. They definitely have provided too many ways to completely counter her information aspect, which is supposed to be one of her main aspects. And with the gen regression limit, it's now safer to provide information. They could even just make disabling drones take a significant amount of time, like 15 seconds, so it can still serve as game slowdown. There's so many possibilities
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@claysgaming said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4066305#Comment_4066305
I fear adding new mechanics would change her identity though. I dont want her to be a projectile or dash killer, we have 30 others of those.
I didn't mean those type of mechanics, but just mechanics that make her a proper information killer. Like having drones scan lines always scan, and reveal aura, even if they disable a drone, making disabling a drone only affect the damage the scan lines can do, just to name something out of the top of my head
I just wouldn't want them to ruin her skillful drone gameplay she has right now (even if that gameplay is currently to weak rn) -
@Thasalliaes said:
At this point why should we even pick trickster instead of the huntress? Same movement speed but you have to hit a survivor 6 times to injure them, and other parts of his kit don't make up for it in my opinion. Main event is cool but situational, and you can't use it near hooked survivors. I get that it's supposed to discourage camping, but it's unusable even after exit gates are powered when the anti camping measure disappears, which is just bizarre. The slow down when using his power doesn't help either, nor does the laceration meter decaying so fast. Before this nerf, because let's be honest that's exactly what this is, at least he had his movement speed to make him stand out. Now? Compared to other ranged killers he just doesn't have anything going for him, and simply isn't that fun to play.
This patch has not been a nerf. They simply removed "Run Down" Trickster where you could just run down survivors and slowly kill them, like another legion, and turned him into a killer where you actually have to try being accurate and not just spam. Where you actually have to try using more subtle mechanics, like needle shots and long range shots, which has added dept to the killer he didn't have before.
Which means that surely, people that don't know how to play him feel like he has been nerfed, because the run-down playstyle that the survivor community absolutely despises is no longer functional (which is great), yet has managed to make Trickster a powerhouse among the ranged killer community, with the ability to quickly close down games with killer instincts, quick time to kill, lots of intel, and has buffed good Trickster players significantly, who are able to go on high win-streaks with his excellent Rework
Sure, he can still use some buffs in some aspects, but not in the areas that buff Run-Down trickster that is frequently posted by the community in this thread that simply are refusing to learn the killer and posting out of skill issue. They should feel happy, knowing that if they invest time in learning the killer now, they actually somewhat have a monster waiting for them. And if they're failing to get results, they simply know to get good -
@claysgaming said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4066199#Comment_4066199
The single scanline and missing stealth mode makes drones extremely easy to hack becaue the beam is so easy to avoid. This is a huge bottleneck in her power, no matter how she gets buffed. Rotating drones also existed when she had 2 scanlines as well. I say bring it back but keep the haste the same so people rotating drones also get rewarded.
In truth, disabling her drones has always been easy, 1 scan line or 2. However, the 1 scan line makes her a deliberate and skillful killer when applying her drones in chase. Though their effect in chase right now is evidently too weak, the gameplay and strategy around it is somewhat solid
That is why I can see that pixel bush was right. He as a strong skull merchant main also understand how to make her power something you have to learn to use, rather than just being able to drop down drones without thought and get value.
Though I agree, if for the intel, there'd be better ways to make far away drones being able to contribute to her intel, than adding 2 scan lines. New mechanics around it potentially -
@ObsidianButterfly said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4066193#Comment_4066193
I used to be an advocate for the stealth on recall. Then I tried it and found it to be obnoxious and clunky.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4066199#Comment_4066199
I fundamentally disagree with everything you have said.
Because now it requires skill and being deliberate. I've tried it myself as an avoid Skull Merchant advocate and it has been amazing. Getting stealth is extremely strategic right now, though of course her controls require getting used to
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@claysgaming said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4066193#Comment_4066193
That may be true, but her overall kit is weak. Her trap playstyle is gone and with single scanline the antiloop also became unreliable. Outside of rotating drones you dont get scans. Plus the general fact that you have to do much more than other killers for little effort (take Nightmare as an example, who can instantly hinder survivors while the Skull Merchant has to scan them 4 times with 1 scanline for a weaker hindered). I say either bring double scanlines or stealth mode drones back and do an Addon overhaul and shes fine. Not even need for a rework.
I definitely agree that SM is weak rn, though I do think the single scanline is a very good idea. Good players are very deliberate on which rotation they place their drones in depending on the survivor's position in the loop, and use carefully counterrotating switches at the right moment to accelerate triggering the drone effect, which I think is really cool, and adds a lot of mastery and Depth to SM, but yes, she is still too weak imo
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@Gh0st2317 said:
As title says. I don't often face trickster, and now the new rework for trickster has dropped, I'm encountering them often and would like advice as I struggle to escape when they're throwing blades at me. Particularly on open maps.
The most important thing is to understand how the new Tricksters think. Since their movement speed is nerfed, most of their shots in loops will be short burst of 1-2 blades around corners. Tricksters will often pull out their knives in advance. Take shack for example, when they run around the corner, they expect you to hug a wall and will be pre-aiming there. If you want to be difficult as survivor, what you want to do is go around corners and run in unexpected directions to other obstacles, so that Trickster keeps pre-aiming at the wrong places as often as possible, which often leads them at failing to land blades or being too late to fire if there's enough obstacles to take unexpected paths to
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@claysgaming said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4065573#Comment_4065573
Agreed. I also really dislike the drone buddy thing. We dont need ANOTHER projectile killer. I can play Huntress or Trickster for that. I just really hope they dont listen to Pixelbush because thats how they got the idea with the recall undetectable as well…
Recall undetectable is actually so much fun. So many cool plays you can do with it. She's super effective at sneaking up to people now
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@SpellCasterNav said:
I played Trickster before the rework and I feel he's really weak in comparison to before. A lot of players will stop playing with him. Especially in the new map. The meta against him is simply hold W and pre-drop god pallets. I always have a hard time catching up to survivors after the rework. And that didn't happen before the rework. And if the survivor you're chasing uses Lithe, Sprint Burst or any other exaustion perk, which are very common, you'll never catch up. Trickster didn't have many players before this rework and now he'll lose a lot of these players, like me for instance. Please, If you don't want to revert this bad rework, at least make a common addon for him that makes him like he was before the rework (4.6m/s, 8 blades to damage survivors, has 44 blades by base, faster blade throwrate and less hinder when in throwing state), similar to the addons that Myers and Freddy Krueger have that make them with their pre-rework Power. Otherwise, I'm done with Trickster. Not only he was stronger and more fun before the rework, but he was far more friendly to new players who wanted to test him. And again, if you don't want to revert the rework, at least make this addon for more casual players, please.
This new trickster is actually a buff, funnily enough. Trickster mains are dominating with it. But yes, the skill ceiling is higher now. You can no longer spam with him and expect a survivor to slowly be mown down. I promise you, learn to properly play the killer and he'll be more fun than he's ever been. His shots are ever more rewarding and the style mechanic has added a lot of depth, of which most people haven't even caught on yet
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Custom loading screen art is literally money left on the table right now. I'd be even more relevant than charms imo. I'd love such a feature
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@Geist said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRtlbWuSmZU
I FOUND THE LINK! The actual rework the person made started around 5:59 (the streamer made a 4.6 / 6 knives trickster)
To be honest, he starts of saying by making a statement at 4:54, where he is calling the current rework "absolutely garb". This is the opposite of the Truth. The devs absolutely cooked with this update. Trickster is now a high skill cap killer that takes practice to get right, but once you get that practice he is significantly stronger than he has been during his 4.6 era. With add-ons that allow him to quickly snowball and close games with killer instinct, is absolutely amazing. If anything, this update his simply revealed which players are simply not good at the trickster, and for him describing the current update, I do think he has lost a lot of credibility on understanding this killer in the first place
Though some of the values are fair, and maybe even good, like slowing down after more than 3 knives to prevent spam, his main event being shorter ruins some of the strategy in using it against grouped up survivors and make it a less thoughtful mowdown, which survivors won't enjoy nearly as much, and that is in my opinion the problem with a lot of these suggested changes, they may feel good for a trickster, but they don't feel good for survivor at all. Being mowed down isn't fun, which is where the current Dev's version reigns superior. Good tricksters have the ability to dominate, yet survivors have the power in chases to make plays too, rather than to just be slowly mowed down by a legion with knives that can take 2 health states.
The proposed changes simply makes him less thoughtful, and for that reason I'd have to disagree -
@ShadowPhoenix13 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4065253#Comment_4065253
It's a relief to hear that you're actively taking on this feedback.
I understand the rationale behind making Trickster a 4.4m/s Killer, but as someone who was actually really excited about the Style Rank system and how that could support a healthier gameplay loop for both Killers and Survivors, I feel like this reduction in movement speed does far more harm than good.
Most maps have far too many LoS blockers and/or loops that you can't throw knives over that the movement speed reduction means you can't reliably seal the deal with a basic attack. This issue is compounded by the fact that a 4.4m/s movement speed also means that Trickster cannot traverse the map fast enough to afford breaking chase to look for another Survivor or to kick gens. This means that in order to reliably secure wins, Trickster is all but forced to adopt strategies and use perks that make the game miserable to play on the Survivor side.
Furthermore, Laceration decays so quickly that in the 50+ matches I've played so far, it was a somewhat regular occurrence that a chase would go on so long that the Survivor would lose Laceration stacks, forcing me to use even more knives to injure/down them, which in turn forces me to reload at lockers more often, which then takes even more time to do because his 4.4m/s movement speed means those lockers take longer to get to.
In my opinion, I think the best starting point for a solution would be to bring back the PTB version of Cut Thru U Single. To be honest, I was shocked to see that it had been reworked for the live release, as I thought it was the perfect way to reward Trickster players for leaning into the Style Rank system.I personally think even the current laceration decay timer is great. Great Trickster players like Wacek have shown repeatedly and at pretty much most loops in the game, it's definitely possible to keep up laceration if you play the Trickster right.
This is amazing because this means that if survivors are failing to keep up laceration, it can be mostly attributed to a skill issue, even if they don't want to admit it.
The limited knives to 36 as well as the current laceration decay are at a level where they are more fair to survivors, where survivors have genuine counterplay in reducing laceration if a Trickster keeps screwing up too much.
Though Trickster definitely deserves some buffs still, it shouldn't be in these 2 areas because they are currently fairly balanced. And with being fairly balanced that means good survivors will be able to make less-proficient tricksters run out of knives as well as cause decay, which is consequently why Tricksters will have this experience while learning the killer. That is not a problem in the Trickster's design. That is exactly the Trickster's design, which means that well playing survivors will be able to make lower tier tricksters run out of knives, and vice versa, Good tricksters will be able to keep up with knives and laceration against good survivors. The Devs have nailed this perfectly right now -
@BalanceIsNonexistent said:
This trickster update is not it. You have to re-evaulate the knife count, locker speed and his movement speed.
I think the knife count is great, and for those who are struggling with it have add-ons to help. The lower knife count actually gives survivors chance to win a chase against trickster, which they should be able to, especially after a survivor failed at as little as a 33.3% accuracy
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BLADE COUNT
There've been some requests to revert blades back to it's original count, away from the current 36. This post is about why I think it'd be a bad idea, and how it would be better to address the blade count issue.
One of the things that makes Trickster frustrating for some survivors is the lack of counter play (other than hugging corners). One of the best counterplays is for survivors to at least have a chance for trickster to run out of blades during a chase if they play well and manage to dodge enough of them to cause this.
For tricksters, it's not merely about the ability to down 1 survivor with 36 blades. It's often about being able to down multiple survivors without having to refill.
Downing one for a decent trickster isn't too hard, and would require (without laceration decay) a 33.4% accuracy, with 12 out of 36 blades hitting. That's easy! But killing 2 survivors with that is where things get hard; that would require a 66.6% accuracy. Considering that blades should also be used for long ranged shots to accumulate style points, you can see where the issue arrives.
That's why I believe we should solve the blade issue in a more creative manner; one that rewards good play, but also gives survivors a chance to escape, should they have played well enough:
KILL COLLECT:
- When the trickster picks up a survivor, 12 blades are returned to his inventory (for a max of 36 / more if there's an addon)
This means that in order to get 2 kills with 1 inventory, the trickster needs an accuracy of 50% instead of 66.7%, which is a lot more reasonable
Here are the tables for comparison:
OLD SYSTEM:
(Formula: knives to kill, aka 12 / total knives * 100)
1 kill = 33.4% minimum accuracy + no laceration decay
2 kills = 66.7% accuracy + no laceration decay
3 kills = 100% accuracy + no laceration decay
4 kills = impossible
NEW SYSTEM:
(Formula: ((x + 1) * knives to kill) / (36 + x * knives to kill) * 100 where x is the amount of survivors picked up and where knives to kill is 12)
1 kill = 33.4% minimum accuracy + no laceration decay
2 kills = 50% minimum accuracy + no laceration decay
3 kills = 60% minimum accuracy + no laceration decay
4 kills = 66.6% minimum accuracy + no laceration decay
5 kills = 71.4% minimum accuracy + no laceration decay
6 kills = 75% minimum accuracy + no laceration decay
Notice how reloading just has gotten a lot more interesting?! Under this new system, you can risk going into chases with a lower knife count with the risk you'll run out of knives, but theoretically, you would be able to sustain yourself on knives indefinitely. This means that while keeping knives at 36, we keep offering survivors a chance to survive a chase due to a reload, which wouldn't be realistic at 44 blades in 1 inventory
The blades returned would even make thematically sense. It takes 12 blades to kill, and those blades are simply received back from the body upon pickup. A perfect and more interesting middle ground for the 36 team versus the 44 team. Let me know if you agree! ❤️ -
@SpellCasterNav said:
I'll use The game words Dreigonix used. This isn't a rework, it's a mockery. And I have a solution to propose. If the developers don't want to revert this rework, at least make a Common Rarity Addon that makes him be like he was before the rework (4.6m/s, 32m terror radius, 8 blades to damage survivors, faster throwrate, less hinder or no hinder at all when in throw state). He was fun and easier to play that way.
Funnily enough, in competitive/at the highest level, 8 blade trickster was considered a 7 stage killer, with luck only 1 kill. With this update, at the comp level the best trickster killers consider him around a 2 kill killer now, so he has definitely improved with the update, and right now, a lot of trickster mains don't really understand the style points mechanic properly, and how to charge it with long range blades as well as blades through thin gaps
He just needs some help at the lower levels as he is nerfed for beginner to medium trickster players -
beHaviour just needs to buff soloQ players so they have base aura reading on their teammate's position, can see generators with progress etc so that they have the same info as coms players.
Right now soloQ players without aura reading are barely able to get a heal off without completely throwing the game, assuming it's not off hook -
RICOCHET BASEKIT
This post is why I believe ricochet should be base-kit and how to make it so, in a balanced manner:
Ricochet is one of the most unique mechanics in the game that also allows a completely different floor of mastery. It comes with training your brain and muscle memory that allows you to take the killer to the next level. That's all great! But the sad thing is, it's an add-on, and for that reason, this muscle memory starts to backfire due to it not being in every single one of your trickster match because it's not base-kit on the killer. This really sucks, because this means that we will never see true masters of the ricochet mechanic.
That is why this post is dedicated to convincing you why to make ricochet base-kit and how to make it so, in a balanced manner.
Now some of you might think making it base-kit might be too strong, and potentially (but not certainly), you might be correct, or not. However, to do our muscle memory justice, we don't have to make ricochet basekit in the way you think. There in fact is a super unique and super cool way to make it base-kit so that every trickster main can use it to train their muscle memory, yet won't have the same strong impact that the current ricochet mechanic might have! Introducing:
Phantom Ricochet:
- All knives bounce (at least once) by default
- After a knife bounces, it no longer deals laceration damage, but it does reset the laceration decay timer
- When a knife hits after a bounce, it refills the trickster's knives by 2
- A ricochet knife also increases your style points similar to long range shots
This means that even if you only have 5 knives, you would be able to take out a survivor with just knives if you managed to hit 1 ricochet knife, allowing for absolutely insane high level plays. In this case it would take 7 knives to take down the survivor, in which 6 were direct hits and 1 was a ricochet non damaging hit.
Why is this amazing?
Ricochet is now a base-kit mechanic for every trickster, meaning that training your muscle memory for ricochet is now permanently a positive thing, and can no longer backfire. Add-ons like Trick Blades are unique in that they are related to muscle memory in such a high degree, that we should not let such a unique mechanic go to waste as a mere addon, especially if it allows us to make trickster stand out as such a unique killer, differentiating him more from typical projectile killers at a time where ever more killer powers are converging to look more the same
On top of that, it's the perfect mechanic to fit in the super well done style points mechanic. What's more stylish than hitting bouncing, non damaging blades?
Potential Tweaks:
- A ricochet bouncing hit also doubles the laceration decay timer if it's the last shot that hit
- Refills 3 knives (or another amount if deemed balanced, though more than 2-3 would probably be too much)
- Knives bounce 2 times instead of once
- A ricochet can only injure/down a survivor if it's the last laceration needed
Ending Note:
I think this ricochet base-kit mechanic, as well as my recently proposed movement speed changes in the above post would be what Trickster needs to make his rework a perceived success in the eyes of many, where tricksters have a lot to look forward to with the new Trickster chapter, as well as a celebration for survivors that can feel comfortable that their trickster will be chasing them with blades at still the familiar 110% movement speed
EDIT: I've since refined some of my opinions as expressed in:⸻How I'd REWORK the Trickster (A Full Coherent Rework, Unmerged) — BHVR
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Taking into account the frequently requested movement speed buff from tricksters, I think this might just be the HEALTHIEST way to implement it, taking the combined feedback from this post in mind:
PERSUIT:
- Trickster remains base 110%
- When Trickster is further away than 14 meters (about the length of shack) from the last person they hit with a knife or basic attack, their movement speed is increased to 115%
- Trickster's terror radius is always 32m
Why is this change absolutely great?
FOR SURVIVORS:
Survivors want to be able to hold some level of distance from the killer. This change would make it so that during normal loops, trickster wouldn't have access to their high movement speed during a majority of the loops in which the trickster is inside "typical kill range", allowing distance to be a healthy factor in counter play. Considering the highest frustration from the survivor side comes from survivors being mowed down from up close, this change completely avoids that frustration
FOR TRICKSTERS:
It makes it so that the frequently frustrating gameplay of having to sluggishly catch up to pre-running survivors or exhaustion perks isn't nearly as damaging to his kit anymore, eliminating the completely un-interactive and disliked gameplay that tricksters might otherwise encounter as the result of being a more unique type of mid-ranged killer. After hooking and walking away 14 meters from the hook would also mean trickster would be able to traverse the map at a 115% speed, further eliminating sluggish gameplay.
As a side-bonus of persuit, it will also function as a weaker built in Whisperer for the last hit survivor, which isn't too strong by itself, but is a nice mini bonus.
Why is it even greater than u already think?
Because this doesn't severely buff killers like Wacek, who are more than good enough to potentially even down 2 people with the 36 knives stack. But for people who struggle more, this mechanic could allow weaker tricksters that fail to consistently take 2 health states with 36 knives, to use the 115% speed to get their first injure and then try to get the down with the remaining knives, giving beginner players a slower alternative to also be somewhat effective as Trickster, without having to put the thousands of hours to hit all needle shots through studied loops
Potential tweaks:
If the side effect of being able to walk up to someone completely at 115% speed, then it could also be tweaked to trigger the PERSUIT effect on someone once entering chase with them. That way, the 115% can only realistically be used when further away from the survivor. (if player 1 is in chase and a 2nd person enters that chase, person 2 becomes the one in PERSUIT, if they leave that chase p1 should be the one in persuit again) -
@Skeleton23 said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/9QSSPSYF23O9/1000018024.jpg
I wanted to see if my game was doing the error as well. So I got it to. So here it is
If you have this issue, and sometimes get the EAC warning, switching VPN can resolve the issue. Veryifying your game files on steam can as well
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@CautionaryMary said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4065233#Comment_4065233
I think I'm gonna bow out of this conversation, but do/have you played survivor? I just find it a simple request to ask someone for footage if they're dominating.
Maybe I want to learn some stuff from your own survivor gameplay, I get tired of watching Cru5h, so it'd be nice to see you dominate killers routinely.
I am literally a survivor main. This isn't a "make killer or survivor stronger" type of post. I advocate for all sides, including fixing the gap between Solos an SWFs and other issues the game currently has
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@CautionaryMary said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4065230#Comment_4065230
Alright, I'll be waiting when you show me killers start at an inherent disadvantage at low-mid MMR by again, asking YOU for your footage.
If it's so easy to loop, get gens done, and everything why can't you show me your footage? Do you have footage of you playing survivor? I have footage of me playing killer and survivor, so where is your footage?
..........?
Where did I claim that killers are at a disadvantage at low-mid tier again? The claim I have been making is that m1 killers without mobility are at an inherit disadvantage, and at higher mmr are considered 3 stage killers. As confirmed, and is consensus documented by thousands of hours of footage all over youtube from comp dbd players. Thousands of 1v1 sets with game losing chase times, and many personal accounts from such players as well.
Consider your history of rejecting empirical evidence, I don't see why any other footage would help. Consider you yourself are unwilling to post your comp dbd 1v1 sets yet are trying to instruct me to record videos for you -
@CautionaryMary said:
Also, no - you think comp DBD is where high MMR is? Lmfao.
So, I have to go play with Wispy, MomoSeventh, X9 Note, Angelz on full comms with complete clock callouts to be in high MMR. Get off your soapbox, show me your games of playing survivor.
1v1 sets don't have coms my friend. But the chase times remain the same; game losing
Also: if you're afraid of coms, remember than in a non com public lobby survivors aren't forced to run unique perks. All 4 of them are allowed to run DS, Shoulder the burden, etc. so the coms setting is not exclusively a buff as you suggest it -
@CautionaryMary said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4065218#Comment_4065218
So, are you ready to 70% movement speed for survivors? It takes me time to get to the three gen, I feel us survivors need that because the maps are so large. Have you seen the new map? Wow, I need 70% movement speed to get to the objectives because I see low-mid MMR dying with terrible soloq experiences.
Are you down for my proposal?
You are simply trolling. But here are real comp sets for chase times as an example (pretty standard), should you be interested:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcAL-zwgIp4 -
@CautionaryMary said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4065219#Comment_4065219
No, show me YOUR footage of you dominating killers.
Please, show me your footage or are you a one-trick pony advocating for your side? Hm.
I don't have to? If you think it's normal to randomly demand strangers to do tasks for you, I have one for you. Jump on the Comp DBD 1v1 server and show your chase times against top players with trapper sets. My estimate is that you will be ran for 2-3 minutes if not more. Needles to say, not a chase time that you're winning any group games with.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4065210#Comment_4065210
Eh, I just think we are getting too much bloat. Everything is too chaotic and almost impossible for any new players to understand the game and stick around. That means less new blood which means a slow death of the game. I feel the game needs to go back to the basics and focus on low mobility killers, but give them some sort of unique twist that makes them different. They dont have to be mindblowingly different - just different enough to add a bit of variety. Right now we have TOO much variety which is hurting the game. Every match is all over the place which pretty much scares away any new players. It has gotten so bad that even the devs realize this which is why the devs released a more streamlined description of perks this patch.
The fact is, high mobility killers have been problematic for the games health. I dont think trying to fix it by making all of the killers the problem will be a good fix - the problem of high mobility still persists. We would be turning a few problematic killers problem into an every killer problem. High mobility simply breaks the balance of the game. It even makes tunneling worse when a killer from across the map can quickly get back to any hook. In every aspect, high mobility is just broken.
I do think that DBD right now has a very dated tutorial that doesn't help newer players understand the game mechanics that are at play, though i disagree that it scares them off, as the player base has only grown. I think it has accomplished the opposite. Depth in gameplay has kept players more interested at sticking around in the long run
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@CautionaryMary said:
I'll be waiting for your footage, please let me know when you upload it, OP. ❤️🤗
I think the general consensus of the entire Comp DBD community already suffices
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@CautionaryMary said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4065170#Comment_4065170
I really would love for you to watch high MMR gameplay with that type of mindset.
Please show me with your own footage how you can easily dominate killers over and over.
I think I'm fairly experienced at the game, but for you to act like the killer itself is at an inherent disadvantage? Okay.
If you feel you need to have speed hacks + Bloodlust to catch me, be my guest. I just know that Behavior would never implement what you just described, it would fundamentally break high MMR (where I'm located). I sympathize with low and mid MMR, I do - but at some point you need to stop asking for handholding mechanics. If WOO is handholding, all aura is handholding. I've had a Wesker literally kick a gen with Nowhere To Hide, I ran with scratch marks, and he did a complete 360 and could not find me. (Distortion ftw, BTW!)
Please be serious and do not be condescending - if the killer role was so horrible, why do people play it? Hmmm........
Oh yeah, another edit that I have. I don't need catch-up mechanics to play Onryo, Trapper, Doctor - yet you NEED it, talk about entitled to say I'd quit over anything, lmfao.
Oh yeah, another edit - I'm on a roll now.
If you argue that killers need 130% movement speed, I say for the low-mid MMR survivors we should also have 70% movement speed when we're not in chase to help us with macro to do our objectives. Are you aware of how silly that sounds?
I regularly watch high level comp dbd gameplay, and if you knew how many killers are considered "3 hook stage" killers then you'd understand how dire the situation is for many of the m1 killers.
Also, if you say high mmr, you realize that the maximum mmr in dbd is capped at a pretty low level right? It's like capping chess mmr at 1600 and letting all 1600 players play with players up to 3000 mmr. Comp dbd is realistically the only real high mmr.
"If you feel you need to have speed hacks + Bloodlust to catch me, be my guest."
I feel like this statement is a bit of a strawman. This is not about catching you. This is about eliminating the completely uninteractive transport time that the already weak selection of killers currently has. A time that killers like nurse and blight do not have all while also having a way stronger chase power themselves than the killers for whom a chase power is all they have going for them.
"Oh yeah, another edit that I have. I don't need catch-up mechanics to play Onryo, Trapper, Doctor - yet you NEED it, talk about entitled to say I'd quit over anything, lmfao."
Everyone needs it on killers like trapper when paired in real mmr. You simply seem misinformed about how mmr works in public lobbies. When you convince yourself of are high mmr lobbies are in fact not high mmr lobbies. Comp dbd are the only real high mmr lobbies and if you think trapper is remotely balanced in high mmr in regards to hooking ability then that simply doesn't match the reality. Forget about how good you believe to be in chases, just based on pre-running it would already be over.
Trapper, as well as many m1 killers are considered 3 stage killers for a reason. Because that's realistically all they can chew. With tunneling and everything. -
@RpTheHotrod said:
Id rather they balance around low mobility killers and stop making mobile killers and bring survivors back in line than making every killer a speed freak.
I think that would just unnecessarily ruin design variety imo, which to an extend is already a problem with the ever more morphing of killers into the dash (myers, pig, etc) or projectile design (huntress, glitchtrap, etc)
Right now, non mobile killers would have to be stronger in chases than all mobility killers to be balanced, but if mobility was built in then we would have complete design and balance freedom around chases mostly, which I think is the best -
@zonkednb said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4065177#Comment_4065177
Indeed! Thank you.
I think the main thing that we need to make sure we're doing, though, is remembering that many less mobile killers can be quite strong in chase/zoning/locking down areas. So any boost to map pressure they could achieve through a patrol mechanic must not give them the ability to switch pressure points as quickly as mobility/telport killers do, as that would somewhat sap the point of those abilities. 130% is quite a high baseline given the increments the game tends to work with.
But, I won't know the right figures, and it'd take time to create figures that work. There would also need to be a very strict system beyond even the forward-only/turn-with-camera restriction. Every single combination of button presses and mouse movements has some kind of tech associated with it in this game, and many techs are abusing mechanics in unintended ways. Don't think for one second that the starving Trapper mains won't immediately form a discord channel exclusively for figuring out how to exploit this patrol idea in an offensive way.
There is one mild concern that I have, however, and that is a matter of immersion. If you get somewhat used to patroling at high speeds, is it possible that chases for some killers will feel slow? Like we're wading through liquid tar? If I'm zooming about as trapper getting set up, catch someone and start a chase, is that chase going to be exilerating if I feel like I'm slower than I was just mucking about the map?
There's strengths and flaws. I'm not 100% let's get this in the game, but I'm open to discussion and experimentation. I don't particularly enjoy playing the high-tiers. I find success with the low -tiers. But I've also had games where my chases have been quick and efficient, but I've just not been able to keep the gens from going off because the map is too large. Possible macro skill issue, sure, but it's a common enough complaint that maybe it's worth more of a review than simply pointing at some kill rates and calling it a day.I personally think that the best thing is have as many various as possible to adjust. The 130% is a clear example, but the devil is in the details tbh. Like, at least how I originally proposed it, the patrolling only activates after 5 seconds and builds up slowly, causing it to only work if the killer is committed to a longer patrol, and won't really have much effect in an area where people run around.
Another good variable for balance is the slowdown after a patrol, similar to many killer powers like legion cancelling ability, and giving time to escape, as it's purely meant defensively. It could for example partially scale based on how long they've been patrolling for (with a cap of course) so it can't really be used offensively.
The 130% buildup could also apply to both speed and heartbeat to compensate.
Currently, entering chase would also force the killer out off patrol, which is of course based on a survivor running, but we could make it so that seeing scratchmarks within 16 meters would force you out as well, so you couldn't try anything by going around scratch marks to somehow get closer
I think another good way to prevent offensive use could be to make it stop patrolling if you stay within a certain area, so if every second you aren't moving further away and to new places from your original patrolling points or something off the sort, you'd be forced out too (with implementation details that would make it work for multi story maps ofc)
There could also be a potential sound cue warning if the killer is close if they have undetectable and are in patrolling mode. Details like that. (Although it may not be necessary if the slowdown after leaving patrol makes it unviable for sneak-ups of course)
I think with the perfect implementation is somewhere out there between these nuanced implementation details that could be added and adjusted to the system to make it perfect. All of them would take some iterations of testing to get them just right to where we'd want to have them, but I'd think we'd be one step closer to perfection for the game (and we will just be left with the exhaustive last 2 person slugging timer situation after) -
@zonkednb said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4065168#Comment_4065168
Of course, the things I mention aren't to rain on your parade. I think there's potential in the base idea. It would be along the lines of a balance change I'm seeing rumbled about more and more - per killer balancing.
I think the main thing is knowing just how much of an impact particular numbers could have, which killers need it more/less. It sounds to me like if they brought in this mechanic, having an attribute like you described, such as "Patrol Speed" would be a way to allow it to shine for the killers that need it.
I'd still want a very lengthy PTB for something that shakes things up so much. Do not underestimate the ability of thousand's of players to turn the best ideas and intentions into a rather brutal stick to beat each other with.I think what you said is actually quite smart, and it might indeed even have a varying effect on different m1 killers, which is why I'm always glad why forumers discuss thing more and more.
I think it would genuinly be great if they tested something like this, and if proven that there are considerable effects in balance, they could even make the 130% a varying number per killer. So killers base stats would more like this:
- 4.6ms movement speed
- 32m terror radius
- 130% patrolling bonus
And have these base stats simply be different for every killer. It would also make buffing m1 killers a lot more convenient, as micro adjustments to these numbers are overall easy to adjust, which is why I often wish beHaviour did more numberwise micro adjustments. -
@CautionaryMary said:
I will admit that the game is hard to balance when you have people gravitate towards mobility killers (Henry, Krasue, Wraith (yes, even Wraith), Kaneki, Hillbilly, Blight, Nurse, Wesker, etc).
We do not need to give a handholding mechanic to killers (130%!) speed boost for holding W.
I do not want to imagine me seeing a killer zoom across the map and then slow down while in chase with me. To me, and I'm sorry if this wasn't your intention - you are fundamentally describing how a killer might hack and then go slow. You are describing hacking level movement baked into the killer.
We already have Bloodlust, they buffed it years back when they changed the gen speeds by making it easier to obtain (less time to get it), made survivors lose more distance (you can look this up, I'm not going to give you the information - you can do this yourself).
So, no - I would hate to see this mechanic at my MMR brackets. I honestly would probably retire my account entirely, move to GTA 6, and hope that a new game would come out to fill that niche that Dead By Daylight gives.
Trapper was my second most used main after Onryo, I do not need 110% movement speed as Trapper or Onryo. This is functionally game-breaking and I don't know how to take this at all. Bear in mind, I did not use basement Trapper - pure slowdown (Pop, Surge/Pain Res, Grim Embrace, and No Way Out) - your recommendation even if I don't want to go play killers (I am not interested in the role anymore) would really make me not even want to load up a customs and play as the killer (like I did with The First recently).
I appreciate your level of thinking and trying to make the game more dynamic, but I would hate this version of the game - and this isn't accounting for the fact that high mobility killers would get this, yeah no thanks.
In regards to:
"We do not need to give a handholding mechanic to killers (130%!) speed boost for holding W."
I think this statement is actually very wrong. If you'd want to balance killers who are natively at a massive disadvantage due to their lack of navigating the map, merely due to how much passive progression the survivor team gets by virtue of being a slow transportation killer, either their main power would have to be overbearingly strong in chase, or it would be impossible to balance, so I think this statement by itself is already very wrong.
In regards to bloodlust: This is indeed a movement speed mechanic, but centered around chases. And for it's addition to the game it has in fact been unanimously great. This in fact testifies the importance of the Patrolling mechanic as it is made with the same philosophy; Without bloodlust, for many killers, a lot of pallets would be permanently safe pallets, unless their specific killer power was designed around making it not so. In the past, many spots may even have been infinites to some killers while not to others. These equalizing mechanics that have addressed the flaws in the core gameplay's fundamental mechanics have unanimously made the game better, and for the lack of these mechanics, you would've likely quit the game even sooner if you had any plans of quitting -
@zonkednb said:
It's a fine suggestion. I'd like to see it tested to see the effects and how players use it. I've noticed players tend to find ways to break things pretty badly, so this would need a lot of games from all levels of play to determine whether it'd be healthy or not.
The one concern I have is how this may impact killers whose traversal power is also an effective chase power (Nurse/Blight what a suprise!). It'd result in them being able to apply pressure without having to arrive already dealing with fatigue or a reduction in tokens and could consolodate their power further (although likely not by much).
Killers with no mobility options should be whitelisted as able to get 'Patrol Mode,' whereas all others should not. Maybe a global sound cue for when this mode is entered so that survivors know to expect Usain Trapper to burst from the corn at 30mph.In regards to breaking things, I agree. I initially thought about it myself too. Right now you could even argue that "shift tech-ing" at shack is breaking it too but in survivor's favour, but in this case of course we'd be looking at it breaking in favour of the killer.
That's why i made it so that you have to press forward only (or on controller holding forwards with a 15 degree variation only) for the effect to trigger. This way they can't run backwards and use the ability to not look at the survivor to sneak up to a survivor at a lot of speed. And in cases where there's a lot of cover, I made it so that scratchmarks block the effect too so that survivors can slow it down. I think it'd even be possible to boost the heartbeat during this ability to compensate and give a bigger heads up. All of these smaller details could of course be looked at to get it to perfection.
Also, I agree that on certain killers it wouldn't be necessary, like on blight or on nurse. It could simple be a mechanic that's presented just like terror radius and movement speed, where some killers can also have the tag "Patrolling" added to the list, showing they have access to this feature. So I definitely agree with that.
I think there are many small ways in which to fine tune the patrolling mechanic, as long as its satisfies it's general design philosophy of being a non-chase transportation mechanism for at least killers that lack basic ways for transportation inside their kit -
@Anti051 said:
I'm all for ideas like this!
There can't just be nothing you can do except abandon your favorites and always pick a high mobility killer, that really sucks for killer players, but it sucks a lot for survivors too because it slaughters the variety that players actually get to experience in the game past an intermediate level of play. It's like having 42 flavors of jellybeans with only 5 flavors making the bulk of what everybody ends up having.
Real. It creates a situation where killers say survivors are OP, because like 90% of their killer roster isn't viable, yet survivors will say killer is OP, because they will mainly be facing that last 10% of killers in most of their matches (in higher mmr)
A proper patrolling movement speed mechanic would not only save all m1 killers and create more variety, but it would also allow more map variety and make larger maps less of a problem, as the new map currently is -
@Abbzy said:
I dont think we need trickster twin as new killer and I dont think the majority (survivor player base) will even allow that thought simple becuase of their pure hate of trickster (like it or not its know fact trickster is super hated among survivors).
Its good skin tho, but her heels audio from footsteps feels like walking jackhammer tbh (from what I saw), kinda shame to have as killer screwed up audio form all things nowdays.
Survivors mainly hate trickster due to the limited counter play. If trickster either had less knives or there'd be a real punishment for missing throws then there wouldn't be as much hate imo
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I think it would be better to reverse any whesker changes too. High skill ceiling is perfect and the techs that it enabled were impressive and balanced as well.
I think they should feel great whenever a killers maximum power can only be fully utilized by highly skilled players, as in low elos killers dominate and in higher elos survivors dominate, which is where killers actually do need that extra power -
The new DLC is visually absolutely great, and the skin is also done really well, whether you like the theme or not, but I would agree that I'd prefer beHaviour to do more smaller incremental changes to killers like trickster, than these massive ones, so that it's easier to take feedback into account
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Both the first and second suggestion would literal bring back the biggest complaint the game has. It would ruin the player experience. No survivor likes being hooked and then being unhooked just to be hooked again without any gameplay. For that reason those perks will never make it into the game
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/GEPS4E85VYVA/image.png
I've played the new trickster and this is my opinion so far:
I think it's great that they're focussing more on precision with the 6 blades instead of 8, thought I do think that the trickster has been nerfed if you look at the bigger picture, so here are the changes to make trickster where he should be:
1. Make trickster 115%. Plain and simple. It makes 0 no sense for trickster to be 110% when killers many times stronger like blight have 115%. (I think the current 110% including for killers like hag make no sense overall) especially since this partially destroys his ability to navigate around the map as well, which is plain boring. Luckily we know from previous trickster that the community at large has no real problem with trickster being 115%, so it's a safe change.
2. The extra slowdown when holding/throwing knives is great imo, trickster should be slowed down as a result of knives. However, to make trickster good and only among higher top tier players that are way stronger facing trickster, while keeping lower elo trickster weaker where killers usually dominate, I think it would be a great chance to give trickster a small movement speed boost after they let down their knives. Enough to compensate the slowdown for throwing 2 knives. Why? Because high level tricksters tend to be very accurance with when they throw and pre-emptively throw around 1-2 knives around every corner and limit that number with discipline. This allows this buff to disproportionally affect higher level players, where trickster currently struggles a lot, while not affecting lower level matches all too much, where tricksters will typically just hold knives long and spam. (if the trickster didn't throw knives they gain no speed boost. If they threw 1 they get a slight speedboost. if they threw 2 they get a bigger speed boost, both to compensate for the slowdown, and after that there's no speed compensation for throwing additional knives)
3. Ricochet basekit: Ricochets are one of the most unique mechanics and playstyles there is to a killer. Sadly due to it being limited to an add-on, no trickster main can truly master this mechanic. Richocets are not just an addon. They are a playstyle. A playstyle that rewires your brain, trains your muscle memory for specific situations, which is why it's extremely sad that this muscle memory backfires due to not always being able to have it on the killer. To become a true ricochet master requires a lot of skill, and makes this killer stand out as a true unique playstyle, that, together with killers like singularity, the newest vecna, skull merchant all introduce a new paradigm of killer powers, unlike the ever closer malgamation of normal dash-like attachs or projectile killers, Trickster truly has the chance to become something unique, but that can only come to fruition if Ricochet is basekit, due to it being a muscle-memory mechanic, unlike most addons in the game. (Other benefits of this current add-on should of course not apply. Merely the bouncing mechanic)
Conclusion
With these proposed changes, I think we'd be able to look at the killer rework in a positive light, and more than just a nerf; we'd have a truly unique killer with a truly unique playstyle and a power, as well as a power that's orchestrated in such a way that high levels players will get the most out of it, where killers struggle, while low level tricksters will struggle more utilizing his kit to the max due to the movement speed mechanic, creating a better experience for lower level players, that tend to struggle more against killer in general
That's all for now
Have fun enjoying the new trickster patch everyone ❤️In response to people saying trickster's only counterplay is holding W:
I have a more experimental suggestion to add to the list of possible changes too
Instead of trickster's knives progress decaying by time, they decay whenever trickster misses a shot. This means that dodging becomes a legitimate strategy again, and you have to hit more than 50% of your blades to make progress. On top of that, it would disproportionally nerf lower elo tricksters that already dominate in their elos, and propertionally allow good tricksters to shine with the previous proposed buffs.
Such a mechanic can of course be finetuned based on the following criteria:
1. His knive progress won't decay if he misses if he hit a survivor within the past 2-x seconds (where u can balance with x)
2. His knive progress is a bar instead of 5 sections, so you can chose what % decays if you miss, so if a knive added 16.6% then instead of losing 16.6% on missing you could lose for example only 5%, etc, where u can balance and finetune with the %
Then through finetuning you can balance the killer to where they consider dodging to be a fair level of counterplay against the killer.
Such a mechanic could also work great if ricochet would be base-kit, by allowing high level tricksters to shine, while not overbuffing low level tricksters that may dominate beginner lobbies. And with a 115% basekit movement speed it wouldn't be too punishing on beginner tricksters either, as they have the safety of being a normal m1 killer as well -
I've played the new trickster and this is my opinion so far:
I think it's great that they're focussing more on precision with the 6 blades instead of 8, thought I do think that the trickster has been nerfed if you look at the bigger picture, so here are the changes to make trickster where he should be:
1. Make trickster 115%. Plain and simple. It makes 0 no sense for trickster to be 110% when killers many times stronger like blight have 115%. (I think the current 110% including for killers like hag make no sense overall) especially since this partially destroys his ability to navigate around the map as well, which is plain boring. Luckily we know from previous trickster that the community at large has no real problem with trickster being 115%, so it's a safe change.
2. The extra slowdown when holding/throwing knives is great imo, trickster should be slowed down as a result of knives. However, to make trickster good and only among higher top tier players that are way stronger facing trickster, while keeping lower elo trickster weaker where killers usually dominate, I think it would be a great chance to give trickster a small movement speed boost after they let down their knives. Enough to compensate the slowdown for throwing 2 knives. Why? Because high level tricksters tend to be very accurance with when they throw and pre-emptively throw around 1-2 knives around every corner and limit that number with discipline. This allows this buff to disproportionally affect higher level players, where trickster currently struggles a lot, while not affecting lower level matches all too much, where tricksters will typically just hold knives long and spam. (if the trickster didn't throw knives they gain no speed boost. If they threw 1 they get a slight speedboost. if they threw 2 they get a bigger speed boost, both to compensate for the slowdown, and after that there's no speed compensation for throwing additional knives)
3. Ricochet basekit: Ricochets are one of the most unique mechanics and playstyles there is to a killer. Sadly due to it being limited to an add-on, no trickster main can truly master this mechanic. Richocets are not just an addon. They are a playstyle. A playstyle that rewires your brain, trains your muscle memory for specific situations, which is why it's extremely sad that this muscle memory backfires due to not always being able to have it on the killer. To become a true ricochet master requires a lot of skill, and makes this killer stand out as a true unique playstyle, that, together with killers like singularity, the newest vecna, skull merchant all introduce a new paradigm of killer powers, unlike the ever closer malgamation of normal dash-like attacks or projectile killers, Trickster truly has the chance to become something unique, but that can only come to fruition if Ricochet is basekit, due to it being a muscle-memory mechanic, unlike most addons in the game. (Other benefits of this current add-on should of course not apply. Merely the bouncing mechanic)
Conclusion
With these proposed changes, I think we'd be able to look at the killer rework in a positive light, and more than just a nerf; we'd have a truly unique killer with a truly unique playstyle and a power, as well as a power that's orchestrated in such a way that high levels players will get the most out of it, where killers struggle, while low level tricksters will struggle more utilizing his kit to the max due to the movement speed mechanic, creating a better experience for lower level players, that tend to struggle more against killer in general
That's all for now
Have fun enjoying the new trickster patch everyone ❤️
EDIT:
I've since updated some of my opinions as expressed in⸻How I'd REWORK the Trickster (A Full Coherent Rework, Unmerged) — BHVR