Geist
Geist
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@Aven_Fallen said:
Those are a bit over 2026 years, so this Rift would have happened shortly before year 0.
Well it is fitting for the ancient theme at least
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I would say that the killer I play the most / main is either trickster or skull merchant.
At first I really didn't like trickster purely because of how he looked. However I ended up unlocking him because I wanted to get his perks on other killers, and out of curiosity I played a few games and discovered that I actually liked his power. The neon cyberpunk throwing knives were satisfying (especially when I sniped someone by throwing a knife through a small gap). As time went on the killer really grew on me and I don't really mind his appearance anymore. Even if the recent "rework" brought along several rather vexing downsides I still play him because no other killer has the same appeal as him.
As for skull merchant I liked her as soon as I saw the PTB. The drones ability to track people in real time on the little tablet, and the ability to cover multiple floors with the same zone was paradise for me(I want to clarify that I hated the chess merchant play style, nothing is more boring to me then not chasing people and kicking the stupid generators). With the original skull merchant I loved playing on midwitch especially because I could take full advantage of the multiple floors and set up a web of drones to trap people in, plus all the add ons were very easy to apply, and the exhaustion one essentially nullified dead hard a perk that I truly despised back then and still dislike today.
If it were up to me I would bring back the zones but make it so they can't expose people working on generators instead it would reveal their location on the tablet and prevent any scan progress from decaying, then when they stop repairing and run away they start gaining progress again. Oh but I would keep the current stealth system of recalling a drone gives you some undetectable.
I am not a fan of the current skull merchant, the laser beams just aren't that appealing to me and are dull, all the special animations of the frightened survivors in the zone are gone, I don't get nearly as much value from the little tablet because the location marker doesn't last very long and I am still unsure if they made pulling out the tablet slow you down or not(because that was a thing in the past and I wouldn't put it past these developers to bring it back).
I am disappointed that the skull merchant is now the dead merchant, and that the developers are trying to weasel their way out of putting in a modicum about of effort of giving this killer a good rework(I liked the drone crash idea but it if off the table now from what I know). I still like her design and play her occasionally, but I really don't like the current laser beam power.
I still play these killers because I like them, even though I am frustrated with their current state(especially merchant), they are unique and there isn't anything else in this game with the same appeal for me.
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@cogsturning said:
I don't think they're AI but I do think the collection is super ugly. I'm looking forward to the desert themed Rift they showed in the stream. That one looks much nicer.
True they are hideous, I cannot understand the mind of the person who approved of those designs.
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@shozu said:
I find trickster to be completely abusable depending on the map he's on. On map's with high rock loops like the one that got reworked with Skull Merchant(sorry I don't know the name), he feels completely countered by running him tightly around a rock you can't see over or get line of sight long enough to get a blade in. The same could be said with a chunk of indoor maps where it's corner after comer and pre-dropping like like Hawkins. I know cutting line of sight is his counter play but man it get's excessive even for a P50 Trickster player like myself.
It usually take me a down and an injure to completely run out of knives and have to reload(sorry I don't have aim bot) so at times, I'd have to pause chase to get to a locker and lose distance while being 110.
A compromise to the rework and being 110 abused would be nice in a buff where the less blades he has, the faster his base speed becomes up to being a 115 speed killer. Or at least be 115 when I run out of blades. Kinda like Spring trap. There's no reason I should be punished for being a ranged character when I don't have any knives to throw. it wouldn't be as powerful to bring hum up all the way to Dracula or anything, which is not what I'm asking. It would just be ironing out a core flaw in his kit since you need constant line of sight opportunities to do anything with his power.
Great idea, I personally advocated for trickster to be 4.6 back when is "rework" was still fresh, I explained the weaknesses of the power, and went in depth on some of the more intriguing aspects of his kit (and other people agreed with me as far as I can remember), yet these developers are paralytically worried about making killers even slightly playable.
As trickster you have to make a lot of compromises, especially with this rework, you are slower then normal(4.4), your blades don't drop or arc so you can't trick shot a knife over a wall and hit someone or throw a knife over a long range because there is so much trash everywhere, you have LESS blades then in the past so you have to reload more(nobody like this BHVR, give us our ammo back). Then there is the nature of the power itself, having to hit survivors multiple times takes time and you slow down in the throwing state so this power is very punishing if you can't land your shots, and even if you do land your shots if the survivors don't mess up you can easily lose the game.
Then there is the S-Rank, oh boy do I have something to talk about. First of all whose bright idea was it to make trickster glow neon pink and yellow? You have no stealth capabilities now because everyone can see you across three state lines. Then there is the 40 meter terror radius, I don't think I need to say more on why this is an incredibly stupid idea.
At this point give us the old 4.4 trickster back, yes we don't have the combo system, but we get more knives so we don't have to religiously go to our god and savior the lockers nearly as often.
All the devs would have to do is for a weekend, or maybe some sort of event mode make trickster 4.6, and I bet you the game wouldn't self destruct overnight, and if they made it permanent trickster players would probably be very thankful(at least I would be).
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@Balrog said:
The best place to leave a bug report is directly with the team on BetaHub!
I didn't know about this, thank you.
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Trickster needs to be 4.6, 4.4 is unnecessarily punishing in the games current state.
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@HoodedWildKard said:
Wasn't the blood collector a mod? Don't think he was in the standard dlc. I only ever played the base game/DLCs and never heard of them.
Oops you are right! I for some reason thought it was part of the DLC, thanks for telling me.
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@Darkest_Night said:
Took about a year long break or so so I'm sure theres some......interesting new mechanics or perk changes I haven't been made aware of. So....what'd I miss, and is it worth coming back?
I would wait another year or so. If your a killer player, then killer has never been harder and less rewarding(and people are still rude in endgame chat), as survivor the game has probably never been easier(oh look how did the buffed fast track end up here?). The game is still buggy, 2v8 is on its one billionth re-run, and look at what they did to trickster(4.4 was bad in the past but it is almost unbearable now with the turbo buffed survivors) and the devs tried to buff low tier killers but a 0.05 second reduction for the doctors static shock isn't bad its an embarrassing rounding error not a buff. Oh nearly forgot the devs added in diminishing returns… that only really affect mid strength builds(like stacking haste or vault speed) but the primary gen rush build of stake out and hyper focus still operates at maximum strength, and the best gen defense perks for killer? yea you can still stack them and they will still operate at maximum efficiency. Oh yea there are more pallets, a lot more, like A LOT a lot more, it feels as if every game takes place in an amazon warehouse.
I don't think the game is worth your time in the current state especially if you primarily play killer, and as a survivor the game isn't especially fun either (because killers bring strong builds to deal with the overturned survivor perks).
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Aren't there other events they can bring to the game instead of 2v8? what happened to lights out for example? I just want something different as I feel that the 2v8 mode had kinda overstayed its welcome. What about a prop hunt mode or something? Also I just remembered that one of the trailers or streams for the anniversary event (last year?) showed a killer (the wraith I think) with a 3rd person camera, imagine the survivors being in the first person perspective while the killers have third person camera that's different and new.
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@kidnappedmaurice said:
Out of all the horror franchises, Alien is my most favorite one. I P100'd Ellen Ripley and, of course, Xenomorph but I play 90% Survivor and 10% Killer. I was bummed out Ellen Ripley didn't have the face likeness of the real actor but what disappoints me the most is there is nobody playing Xenomorph besides me apparently lol
I can understand why nobody does though. The fact that Xeno isn't a real stealth killer and Xeno's power can be disabled by turrets. Unlike the movies, Xeno has no chance to get close to anybody without the damn turret peeping from miles away with its motion tracker. There is also a chance a tail attack doesn't always register. The nerf to his tail attack also did numbers to him.
I'm unsure how to change Xenomorph without making it overpowered or underpowered. His power is burdensome to balance due to the turrets and whatnot.
Adding undetectable outside the tunnels wouldn't make any difference due to the motion tracker from turrets. Making his tail faster but turrets stronger would make or break his power. Adding additional gamemode stuff like Facehuggers is funny but strange since it would instantly kill survivors.
Do you, perhaps, have a good idea for Xenomorph?
I would honestly just rework it from the bottom up. Many less experienced, survivors hate the flame turrets with a burning passion, skilled survivors can double turret the xenomorph so you have no counter play, and the power itself is kinds underwhelming imo(for the tail at least, the tunnels are awesome)
What I would first do is throw out the turrets, balancing them is a literal nightmare(the devs learned nothing from the singularity and how people hated its confusing counter play) I would instead replace them with a med pod(I am thinking of the pods the crew wakes up in in the first movie) they are like a locker the survivor can go inside of one and the killer can search them(I would also have them trigger locker based perks but that is just a pipe dream). I will elaborate more on its function later.
Secondly, the killer has a "infection" mechanic. One of the most iconic things of the series are the face huggers and chest bursters. So I would incorporate them into the power, the xenomorph has 8 face huggers(I'm throwing numbers at the wall here so it will be weird for game balancing, just trust the process).
Whenever you down a survivor you can call a face hugger to attach to the survivors face(think of the pig head trap). you then have to then hook the survivor, once hooked the face hugger falls off the survivor is infected with a chestburster.
The chest burster has a few different effects, it will cause healthy survivors to cough(like the nemesis infection) and if survivors get to close to each other the chest burster will "panic" and reveal the infected survivor and all nearby survivors with killer instinct as long as they are within a certain range (this will not happen right after a unhook, when the infected survivor is un hooked a 45 second timer will start, if the survivor gets healer before the 45 seconds are up the mechanic will activate, if they are still injured after 45 second it will also activate) the survivors can enter a Med Pod and undergo a mini game to have the chest burster removed(I imagine like the skull merchants hack mini game, and the glass will foggy since surgery is actually impossible in this game) failing the mini game will make the survivor scream and reveal their location. if a survivor has 2 hooks and they are infected you can preform a special mori where the chest burster breaks free.
the tunnels should stay as they are, very good in my opinion.
as for the active power, in the game its the tail attack, I think its ok(maybe a little lacking in range and it has a funky hitbox at times). you could argue for an acid blood projectile, or a dash attack which I am personally fine with. if anyone has a good idea, comment or something as I have no idea what the active power should be as it could be nearly anything. I think the coolest idea I've heard is where the xenomorph could pounce and hold onto surfaces(like a wall or a tree) and then from their they could pounce on survivors to damage them, this of course will never happen, but I can dream can't I?
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While this patch is a step in the right direction, especially with the add-on buffs, it still misses the core issue. Trickster at 4.4 is unnecessarily punishing.
The Laceration decay change doesn’t fully solve the problem if the decay is still bugged or inconsistent, and the stronger add-ons only make him more dependent on them to feel viable.
Trickster in skilled hands can dominate, but against competent survivors who pre-run, or for less experienced players playing him, he struggles to maintain pressure. He also can’t reliably play for range without specific add-ons, and the current large cluttered maps with excessive pallets make chase even harder.
On top of that, his kit is full of self-imposed slowdowns. He loses speed while throwing and slows further the longer he commits to knives.
It’s also important to consider the broader game state. Survivors currently have strong advantages through overturned gen progression perks(oh hello fast track, how did that get there?), lots of endurance perks, and increased safety on maps(too many pallets anyone?). Even at 4.6 with 6 knives to injure, Trickster would still have to fully commit to chase and obey standard gameplay rules(unlike the blight who plays the game in fast forward or the nurse who chucks the DBD rulebook out the window).
All of this makes 4.4 m/s overly punishing. Moving him to 4.6 wouldn’t make him overpowered, it would make him fell better to play at all levels and reduce how matchup and map dependent he can feel.
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Welcome to this wonderful game!
Be careful though the community can be very toxic at times. I would also recommend turning off the in game chat if possible.
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@DeadbyDiggly said:
I have been playing trickster a lot since he first dropped, and the most recent rework is the only time I have seriously considered permanently dropping him and not coming back.
He just in general feels so much worse to play, he feels so insanely sluggish and like you need to do absurdly more work for the same effect as before. It feels like he was given 1 or 2 decent buffs but it is joined by so many nerfs that I honestly don't see the point. Even the rounds I am winning feel like I am not having any fun in doing so. I keep thinking if I keep giving him time I will get used to it and then it will come back to me but- that is honestly not the case.
I really hate how he feels. I think I hate him now, which makes me really sad because according to the stats he is like my first or second most played killer.You're not alone, I have played him before his first rework, after the rework, and now this version.
Your right with the sluggishness.
In exchange for giving him lethality with 6 blade injures and a flashy new UI, they crippled everything else, movement speed, throwing speed, decay timer, hit registration(for me blades hit but I don't get laceration stacks), and more have all gone down the toilet. I believe if he were 4.6 these problems wouldn't be as prominent but the speed nerf combined with everything else just feels really bad.
I am actually considering dropping him as he just doesn't feel good now. I will play much less of him in any case with these atrocious balancing changes.
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@OrangeBear said:
4.6m/s OR ripper brace basekit + more ammo please <3
Why not have both?(this is a joke… or is it?)
In my opinion they should give him 4.6, anything beyond that would just be the cherry on top.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4066432#Comment_4066432
LOS breaks aren't really relevant at 4.6, considering at that speed it isn't difficult to quite literally make it to the back of a survivor with ease, as is the point of melee killers. LOS blockers will therefore barely buy any time, as Trickster can continuously make their way to survivors like a melee killer can.
"it demands it at a baseline level that many players can’t realistically meet aside from the best. "
This is not true. A lot of beginner Tricksters or medium tricksters will indeed struggle, but mainly because they are facing Adept-veteran survivors. And guess what, if your Trickster is worse than someone Else's survivor, you deserve to lose. Beginner survivors or even some medium survivors have significantly more problem finding the proper loops/pallets, often run in open/dead zones where the trickster can easily mow down players, and aren't tightly hugging loops, like adept survivors.
The Tricksters who push this idea are those who do in fact that their mid Trickster should beat an Adept survivor, which is inherently unfair, but yes, a legion like Trickster would accomplish that, because the chases become mostly meaningless from the survivor's side.
The total perfection at which you'd have to play Trickster is also over stated. The only time you'd ever have to play at near perfection, is when the survivors are also playing TO perfection. So I don't really see why if survivors would have to play to perfection, you wouldn't have to hold that yourself to that same standard in order to win against them
Keep in mind people will often have thousands of hours completely trying to perfect survivors. As a Trickster, in it's current state, you wouldn't even need half of that to be able to dominate in similar lobbies
"And honestly, I think this is where our perspectives split."
I do agree, thought I wish you'd see that we can help these struggling Tricksters in different ways that are healthy to the game. Because Trickster will also feel significantly better to play if he is simply stronger overall. When he has more tools to prevent gens from flying, even as aspiring Trickster mains are still learning the killer. I also belong to the category of a "struggling" or learning Trickster, and personally have been able to get better results just practicing over the few days the Rework has been out and have already been able to see significant results, evidently playing against good survivors, who have a lot of tricks in the books, from mind games to pallet vacuum-like tricks to get stuns, while I'm evidently nowhere near the level of a Trickster than they are at the level of Survivor. And I do personally find it aspiring that this Killer has so much to offer for those that are willing to learn him properly. I would personally feel very sad if we buffed Trickster in the wrong way, that takes away from his high skill identity, as making him a killer that survivors rightfully despise, also, in my opinion, takes away some of the fun of playing him, especially knowing that (assuming the Legion-like Trickster) these aren't the type of chases they log on to this game for, and even wouldn't be playing if this was the predominant experience they would have with this game. I feel like that would take something away very important
Keep in mind both of us are in camp Buff Trickster, but just in different waysThe idea that LOS breaks “barely matter” at 4.6 ignores a core part of Trickster’s design—he is not a standard melee killer during his power. When he’s throwing, he slows down to a speed below survivor movement. That means LOS blockers don’t just “buy a little time”—they actively disrupt his ability to maintain pressure, force him to reposition, and often reset laceration. That interaction exists regardless of whether he’s 4.4 or 4.6.
At 4.4, that slowdown becomes even more punishing. You’re not just interacting, you’re falling behind. Survivors don’t need to outplay you in a meaningful way; they just need to reach cover, and the numbers do the rest. That’s not skill expression—that’s a built-in disadvantage. You’re also framing this as if survivors are only succeeding through skill, while ignoring how much the current game state already favors them. Survivors have faster overall generators(and busted generator perks), longer hook timers, Map clutter and high pallet density (especially with lingering issues like 2v8 tile generation), and extremely efficient perks with low skill requirements
Take something like Sprint Burst, there’s no complex execution there. You press run and immediately gain massive distance, often enough to reach a strong tile safely. That’s not high-level interaction, that’s free value. Stack that with endurance perks, second-chance mechanics, and strong map resources, and survivors already have a very forgiving baseline.
And that’s where the problem lies: you’re asking Trickster to operate at a disadvantage on top of all of that, while calling it “healthy.”
The argument that “you deserve to lose if you’re worse” sounds fair on paper, but ignores asymmetry. Killers already have to manage four players, map pressure, and macro decisions. If the killer also has to play near-perfectly in chase just to keep up with baseline survivor advantages, that’s not balanced, that’s excessive demand on one role.
Also, the comparison to Legion-like gameplay is still being overstated. Trickster at 4.6 doesn’t suddenly become brainless, he still requires accuracy, tracking, and decision-making with his knives. His identity doesn’t disappear just because he can move at standard killer speed. What it does do is remove the reliance on perfect execution just to stay relevant.
And while it’s great that you’re seeing improvement and enjoying the learning curve, that doesn’t mean the design is broadly healthy. A killer can be rewarding to master and still be overly punishing or inaccessible to the majority of players. Those two things aren’t mutually exclusive.
At the end of the day, we’re prioritizing different things, you’re prioritizing preserving a high-skill identity, even if it raises the barrier significantly. I’m prioritizing making sure the killer feels functional and fair across all skill levels, not just in the hands of dedicated specialists.
I think we’ve both made our positions pretty clear at this point.
This will probably be the last time I respond, I’ve got other things I need to get to, but I do appreciate the discussion.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4066422#Comment_4066422
So far you've still completely ignored what healthy game-design is. Fact of the matter is that a basekit 115% Trickster is indeed an uninteractive killer, in which consistent chasetimes are guaranteed. This means that for the survivor, most of their gameplay is predominantly meaningless. That is indeed where this whole issue of reworking trickster began, and it is also uniquely why Trickster must indeed be a high skill killer to be healthy to the game.
He does however not need to be weak. He can be buffed in many other ways that don't dumb down his chases and reduce it to being a ranged Legion;
We can reduce boiler plate reload times by giving him 12 knives back whenever picking up a survivor, allowing him to sustain himself on knives for very long if played right, without losing the ability of running out of knives by letting max capacity untouched.
We can allow him to regress gens by throwing a knife at them to start the regression, so that he doesn't have go to kick and chase those scratch-marks as you suggested to catch up, but can instantly enter the chase, significantly improving his map pressure.
There are many such ways in which the Trickster can be buffed, where his chases remain a real and interesting game-mechanic, rather than a guaranteed run-down that has been unanimously hated among the survivor community (may I say the largest player-base in this game), so if we can turn Trickster into a strong killer, while also letting his chases remain a skillful display, where survivor counter input is significant, due to their ability to punish Tricksters that screw up in a meaningful manner, I'd say that is absolutely worth it. Because that is healthier for the game overall.
That means 4.4 base speed. 36 max capacity so he can run out realistically, proper laceration decay, and buffs in many other departments, both that make him more accessible to newer players without destroying the chase.
Because we can actually make this killer work without ruining him for 80% of our community (the survivor base). And that does mean a Trickster that can fail. A trickster where hitting knives is not an optional Side-quest. A trickster where survivor's gameplay is more significant. The Trickster we have right now.
What we need for him plain and simple is buffs that don't dumb down his chase, and there are many ways in which we can achieve thatThe idea that 4.4 creates “healthy interaction” falls apart when you look at how survivors actually play against it. A 4.4 killer inherently gives survivors more time to reach stronger tiles, chain loops, and extend chases, not because of skillful outplay, but because of a raw movement disadvantage. That isn’t meaningful interaction; that’s passive time gain.
In other words, survivors aren’t always “outplaying” the Trickster, they’re just outpacing him. This becomes especially noticeable at mid-to-high MMR, where survivors understand pathing and pre-running. Against a 4.4 Trickster, they can pre-drop and rotate earlier, Greed distance between tiles more safely, and force longer chases simply by holding W. That doesn’t increase interaction it reduces it to a time stall. The Trickster is then forced to compensate by landing near-perfect knives just to keep up, which reinforces the exact problem: excessive reliance on execution.
So instead of both sides making meaningful decisions, the dynamic becomes something like this:
The Survivor gains time by default.
The Killer must play near perfectly to compensate.
That’s not healthy balance, that’s asymmetrical pressure skewed too far in one direction.
At 4.6, survivors still have counterplay, dodging, line-of-sight breaks, tight movement, but they can’t rely as heavily on passive distance alone. They actually have to engage with the killer’s power more directly, which increases meaningful interaction rather than reducing it.
And this ties back to accessibility: a 4.4 Trickster doesn’t just “reward skill,” it demands it at a baseline level that many players can’t realistically meet aside from the best. That’s why judging the killer off top players is misleading, those players can overcome systemic weaknesses that most of the playerbase cannot.
So if the goal is a healthy killer survivors should win chases through decisions not just time gain, killers should succeed through skill but not require perfection to function. 4.6 helps rebalance that relationship without removing Trickster’s identity or skill expression it just prevents survivors from abusing his base speed as a built-in advantage.
And honestly, I think this is where our perspectives split. You prioritize limiting the killer to preserve survivor agency, while I prioritize ensuring the killer isn’t inherently disadvantaged in ways that feel frustrating or inaccessible. I don’t think either of us is going to fully convince the other here and that’s fine. I can’t convince you, and you can’t convince me. Shall we just agree to disagree on this topic?
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4066361#Comment_4066361
"Your first argument gives the survivors a free escape"
It is not demonstrably false. Good Trickster players like Wacek have shown they can consistently keep up their lacerations, even at the current rates. If anything, it has proven that people running out of knives or lose to decay suffer from nothing but skill issue. The people that think "there's nothing they can do but watch their laceration decay" simply lack the knowledge on how to prevent it, and when to fire. If top players would have failed, I would have agreed with you, but they aren't, and we have no excuse either other than needing to learn
""Many people here would call the current rework a Nerf" Because it is."
It isn't, and current emerging winstreaks are providing us with increasing proofs. It is definitely a skill ceiling shift, as demonstrated in this graph, because the killer no longer plays itself, like it does on 4.6, and has become more than just a ranged legion.https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/XT2DSS6197GZ/image.png
"Oh yea where are the "tricks" you keep talking about"
The current update has done a phenomenal job at adding tricks, by making long range shots, as well as short ranged shots through thin gaps valueable by making it increase your style points for your main event. Previous dumbed down versions of Trickster lacked all of this dept. You were simply meant to run down survivors with bad accuracy and they would fall eventually. This is no longer true. Now you can't play the Trickster as Ranged Legion anymore. You have to play the Trickster as the Trickster.
I've also detailed some of the "Tricks" in my own post, that also aim at advancing Trickster as a high skill cap ceiling killer and move him away from being a Ranged Legion: ⸻How I'd REWORK the Trickster (A Full Coherent Rework, Unmerged) — BHVR
"You would have to nerf this killer so far into the ground if you want to stop top trickster players like Wacek from converting survivors health states to past tense."
The killer in fact doesn't have to be nerfed. I've already seen survivors being able to put up a fight with Wacek, both through pathing, and dodging, all privileges that were able to happen as a result of him being 4.4 instead of 4.6 as base-speed
In fact, I do not believe Trickster does need to be nerfed in the current state. At a comp level he could even receive some buffs in other creative areas, but not in the areas that would dumb him down, such as max knife capacity, or base-movement speed
"I know that you mean well, and I agree that trickster should reward more skilled plays and learning the killers quirks and mechanics."
I in fact believe that in this main chase state is the only way for him to be healthy, which is especially why, in buffing Trickster, we do so in other creative aspects. Killer instinct for example has been absolutely great, and has allowed skilled Tricksters to close down games. That's what I believe is the level of creativity we need for this killer to turn him into a healthy success. In those areas he definitely deserves his buffs, but not in areas where we destroy his interactive gameplay for the survivor side, because that's what got us into the issue of reworking OG trickster originally in the first place, and what we need to avoid doing in the futureI want to clarify my position I am advocating for the 4.6 speed increase because I want trickster to feel better for both older and more experienced players, and be more approachable for newer players who want to experiment with all the different killers. I really like the trickster as he is unique compared to other killers both in style(figuratively and literally) and with his power. I want this killer to be a part of this game, and not be forgotten in some dark corner of the game.
Firstly, pointing to players like Wacek doesn’t prove the killer is healthy, it proves that highly specialized players can overcome weaknesses through extreme mastery. That’s true for almost every killer in DBD. If balance is judged by the top 1%, then nearly every weak or clunky killer could be labeled “fine” which clearly isn’t the case. A killer should not require near-perfect execution just to feel functional.
Second, calling it a “skill issue” ignores how disproportionate the punishment is. The lowered blade count and reliance on perfect laceration upkeep means that small mistakes, something unavoidable for mid to low level players, are punished far more harshly than before. This isn’t just raising the skill ceiling, it’s raising the skill floor to an unhealthy level. A good design should reward mastery without making the baseline experience frustrating or inaccessible.
Third, the idea that 4.4 speed creates “interaction” is misleading. In practice, it often removes interaction by forcing Trickster into chasing scratch marks for way too long and overcommitting to stay relevant in chase. Survivors don’t gain meaningful counterplay, they just gain time. And against competent survivors, that extra time translates into reaching stronger tiles, extending loops, and completed generators, which already hurts the trickster.
At 4.6, Trickster wouldn’t become “Ranged Legion” again, because his identity isn’t tied to his movement speed, it’s tied to his knives, accuracy, and Main Event. Increasing his speed simply allows him to stay competitive in chase without over-relying on perfect knife uptime, recover from small mistakes (which all players make, me included), and feel both responsive and fluid rather than punishing and rigid.
Fourth, your argument about “tricks” actually supports a 4.6 buff rather than contradicting it. Skilled shots through gaps and long-range pressure are optimal optimizations, not core requirements. Right now, they feel mandatory just to keep up. A 4.6 speed would let those mechanics remain high-skill expressions instead of baseline necessities.
Finally, accessibility matters. A killer that only feels good in the hands of dedicated specialists is not a healthy design for the game. Trickster should reward mastery, but he should also be approachable enough that newer and mid-level players can engage with his mechanics without feeling punished for every mistake. Right now, the rework has shifted too much burden onto execution. A 4.6 movement speed doesn’t “dumb him down” it stabilizes his baseline so that skill expression becomes a bonus, not a requirement for basic functionality.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
DEVS, DON'T GIVE IN TO PRESSURE
Trickster has always been a troubled killer. A killer that made many lobbies DC due to the Trickster failing to create a healthy level of interactive counter play, ruining the experience for survivor. He was essentially another Legion; one where chases aren't really that impactful and you're gonna get run down eventually, no matter how good you are. With the Trickster being able to apply that same logic to 2 health state has made him a well hated killer among the survivor community. So why did he fail where other killers didn't?
A perfect example of interactive counterplay is Huntress;
Let's look at a smaller loop. If the Huntress just walks through a pallet, she'll catch up to a survivor and hit them.
If a survivor drops the pallet, they can stun the huntress.
The huntress can in turn counter this by faking walking through a pallet and pulling up her hatchet ready to throw it over the pallet when it's thrown down
The survivor can counter this by faking throwing a pallet and keep running.
The huntress can counter this by faking pulling up the hatches and just running through like she did at the start.
This rock paper scissor gameplay is what creates interactive gameplay, and why huntress is one of the beloved killers of this community, and that is where older versions of Trickster failed.
But what would interactive gameplay looks like for Trickster? Because dodging a single hatches can feel impactful, but dodging a single knife just to be hit by the next and having zoned yourself surely isn't it.
Well, there are multiple things that can make playing against the trickster more impactful:
- The ability for the Trickster to run out of knives
- Having blade decay be a serious mechanic that survivors can realistically utilize
- Having distance from the killer due to them having a lower movement-speedAll of these things have the potential of turning the Trickster into an interactive gameplay killer. Now there's a problem. Have you noticed a lot of the feedback on this thread?
More knives, more base movement-speed, longer laceration decay timer…
The suggestions from the majority have been everything that would ruin interactive gameplay for the Trickster, and would turn the Trickster into yet another Run Down ranged legion…
But this monster has been our own creating. Because this Trickster-Legion has been the temporary solution for the Trickster rework; 8 blades to make chases last longer, but essentially guaranteed downs, and high blade counts. Sure it is "balanced". Having essentially guaranteed similar chase times and guaranteed downs are balanced but they aren't fun, nor interactive, yet it has trained many beginner players on their perception of what Trickster-Legion is;https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/DG60Y5TDN9C3/image.png
Many people here would call the current rework a Nerf, which for many beginner players it is. Because the current, extremely well done rework (that is a net buff) has killed the un-interactive Run-Down Trickster hated by the survivor community. This means Trickster now is no longer a ranged legion, but a careful accuracy machine full of tricks, with deadly blades, trained on re-aiming corners and map knowledge as well as knowledge of survivor's pathing to efficiently take down survivors.
For the true trickster mains, it is the true prediction, around every corner, to predict whether, based on the distance, they will be able to hit a knife, and where that survivor will be located, so they can preferably pre-aim at that location. Consequently, for survivors, to fight this Trickster it is in their best interest to be unpredictable with their pathing to screw up the Trickster's pre-aim as many times as possible.
For the first time, we have interactive gameplay for a killer that used to have none. Not only that, but the Devs have been able to do so while making the rework a NET BUFF to the killer, one that is accessible for anyone that's willing to let go of the hated Run Down Trickster-Legion and usher in the area of the True and unique Trickster playstyle.
In the charts above, you can see the old learning curve, as well as the new learning curve, a net buff, in which the red zone exemplifies the "complaint zone", aka people who have yet to learn the Trickster as more than a Run-Down legion and will have to learn as a real Trickster, and the green zone, the GOATED zone, for tricksters why are one with trickster and have decided to learn the killer properly, and are able to see why he is stronger.
My argument is, that even though the complaint zone looks big, from the previously brained legions dressed as Tricksters, many of these people and their complaints, would actually change, once they realize that the green zone exists. Even though the Devs might see negative feedback around the current Trickster, many of these players might change their minds upon realizing that if they properly learn this killer, they would be stronger than they could ever be with 4.6 44 Trickster-Legion.
I myself had to go through this experience as well. As someone who didn't play Trickster until the rework, my first experience was brutal too; getting pre-run, running out of knives, seeing my laceration decay. The answers seemed simple… yet couldn't have been further from the truth.
All of the things I would've complained about weren't a flaw with the killer, but were simply attributable to being a skill-issue. Both seeing proper Trickster players perform so well has inspired me to try to actually learn this killer properly too, and even just over the course of a couple of days, I have been able to get my first dominating games. This of course requires one to truly want to be a Trickster, which requires you to also understand what it means to think like a Trickster; leaning pre-aims at corners, like shack, judging distance and estimating when you will get peeks. Learning flicks and understanding the delay time between when you press your blade and when it's trajectory is actually decided. The depth to this killer are not only insane, they are extremely fun! That is why I'm truly a fan of the "Trickster is a killer for the perfectionists"
It is also in this fun state, where the legion has interactive gameplay. Remember the Huntress story from earlier? Interactive gameplay with the current Trickster exists due to his lower maximum knife count, higher laceration, lower base movement speed, all things that adds to giving survivors more value for dodging and playing well, as well as being unpredictable with their pathing at Trickster's favourite pre-aiming spots
Due to the Trickster's design, dodging blades can only ever have some significance if the Trickster is forced to play at this higher skill ceiling. It is the only place where interactive gameplay can exist, unlike killers like huntress, where interactive gameplay can also exist at lower skill levels. It's therefore my belief that all killer powers, however they are designed, should be balanced around where their gameplay remains interactive. For some, that means that they are very accessible , for some killers, like Krasue where little interaction exists, should simply be nerfed, and where killer's interactivity is great, like Blight, his power can be celebrated. What that means for Trickster is that he can only ever be healthy for the game, if he is implemented as a high skill-cap killer, and that is something all of us Trickster players can celebrate, because this means that any of us can make him shine, if we're willing to put in the practice to learn what makes this killer unique.
That's why I hope that the Devs don't succumb to pressure and turn Trickster into yet another ranged Legion and embrace him for what makes him unique, as even I myself, in lesser knowledge would've advocated for the wrong things; more knives, more free base-kit movement-speed, slower laceration. Many of them simply don't know any better. They are still in the Red Zone from the chart and simply don't know any better than to think the killer got nerfed in this patch, as being Legion brained can easily make you think. But once they take the time to learn this killer, for all that makes the Trickster unique; a perfectionist killer full of Tricks, they will have a true monster on their hands~I don't think I have ever heard an argument with so many disprovable points.
Firstly, with your huntress comment, yes the huntress can play around the pallet just like literally every other killer in the game. The rock paper scissors gameplay is done by every killer not just ranged killers.
Second "impactful trickster counterplay", Your first argument gives the survivors a free escape, and it's not especially hard to run out against a good survivor because of the ammo nerfs. Blade decay SUCKS especially in its bugged state. As a slower then normal killer playing around structures that you can't shoot over or through results in you being unable to do anything as you watch your power disappear. Then your last point is just pre running, that while it is impactful is boring for both sides and does not produce interesting gameplay
"Many people here would call the current rework a Nerf" Because it is. I will admit I have not mastered trickster the same way Wacek has, I still have a ways to go. But I understand the killer after playing him for a long time, I can make shot through small gaps, and I can say without a doubt that this is an overall nerf. If I put on my best rose tinted glasses him being 4.4 is fine since he is a ranged killer, but when you actually play the game with this speed all you will see for a while are survivors scratch marks for five minutes because you. just. can't. catch. up. anymore. Trickster is certainly lethal we both agree on that point, but the drag of slowly waddling after survivors who have pre ran across three state lines is not enjoyable in the slightest. Lets also not forget you are chasing one survivor while the other three are working on generators so you are just losing ground at an alarming rate.
Oh yea where are the "tricks" you keep talking about because the only trick I see anywhere in his kit are the trick knives add on which makes his blades bounce once. His holy trinity has gone from three to one(and trick knives are nerfed to one bounce only). All the other stuff in his add ons and kit aren't really tricks he just gets stronger as the game progresses and if he is a good player he gets main event really fast.
Experienced trickster mains with hours upon hours of mastering the killer might as well be Dio from JoJo with their ability to turn healthy survivors into whimpering lacerated lumps on the floor. You would have to nerf this killer so far into the ground if you want to stop top trickster players like Wacek from converting survivors health states to past tense.
I know that you mean well, and I agree that trickster should reward more skilled plays and learning the killers quirks and mechanics. But as he is right now he will just fade away into obscurity after a week or two because the current stats(especially the 4.4 movement speed) will be ridiculously punishing against halfway decent survivors who know how to play the game.
Also I'm gonna be honest the devs probably aren't even listening to us, as they let the obscene fast track to live servers even though many people said this would be game ruining. They are going to ignore this like how they ignore any sort of feedback nowadays. So don't worry, you'll get to keep your nerfed trickster shape.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acQiVLDrHog
ANOTHER VIDEO HAS HIT THE SERVERS!
Jokes aside this video is actually newer and more relevant.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4066161#Comment_4066161
To be honest, he starts of saying by making a statement at 4:54, where he is calling the current rework "absolutely garb". This is the opposite of the Truth. The devs absolutely cooked with this update. Trickster is now a high skill cap killer that takes practice to get right, but once you get that practice he is significantly stronger than he has been during his 4.6 era. With add-ons that allow him to quickly snowball and close games with killer instinct, is absolutely amazing. If anything, this update his simply revealed which players are simply not good at the trickster, and for him describing the current update, I do think he has lost a lot of credibility on understanding this killer in the first place
Though some of the values are fair, and maybe even good, like slowing down after more than 3 knives to prevent spam, his main event being shorter ruins some of the strategy in using it against grouped up survivors and make it a less thoughtful mowdown, which survivors won't enjoy nearly as much, and that is in my opinion the problem with a lot of these suggested changes, they may feel good for a trickster, but they don't feel good for survivor at all. Being mowed down isn't fun, which is where the current Dev's version reigns superior. Good tricksters have the ability to dominate, yet survivors have the power in chases to make plays too, rather than to just be slowly mowed down by a legion with knives that can take 2 health states.
The proposed changes simply makes him less thoughtful, and for that reason I'd have to disagreeI am sorry but I'm kinda confused by your statement.
This video was made before the style rework was even teased in the devstream as far as I know, when the 4.6 / 8 knives trickster was still on live servers and I believe he was referring to that as "absolute garb". I do like the style system and stuff but I feel that he needs to be 4.6, especially in the games current state as 4.4 on him just ain't gonna cut it with all the stuff going survivors way in this game.
Unless you meant something else, I would appreciate it if you could clarify in any case, thank you.
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Ok I followed the instructions and nothing worked
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRtlbWuSmZU
I FOUND THE LINK! The actual rework the person made started around 5:59 (the streamer made a 4.6 / 6 knives trickster)
NOTE: This video was created BEFORE the COMEBACK rework, while the 8 knives / 4.6 trickster was on live servers
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@bigphil0005 said:
The 4.4 nerf is making him so rough to play now. 4.4 for someone like huntress, because 1 hatchet does 1 health state. They want you to hit people and kick stuff for style points but its much harder to get a M1. He just feels super weak to me now.
You are not wrong he is actually worse in several ways.
His movement speed nerf for example is really bad for him as a ranged killer who has to hit people multiple times to injure people and most survivors as soon as they hear your 44 meter lullaby will pre run which shuts down your power.
His power itself has got a nerf to his maximum ammo so you have to reload more(nobody likes reloading at lockers no matter how cool the animation is)
His add ons are decent now, but very dull at the same time. I mean look at what happened to his holy trinity, two are dead and the trick blades can only bounce one time now.
There is also a much harsher throwing state movement speed penalty now so the survivors get way more distance on you if you stay in the throwing state too long(In theory you wouldn't be in the state too long anyway but if you keep throwing and missing(which beginner tricksters are bound to do) you give survivors much more distance, and this also makes the killer much less beginner friendly)
I also said this in a different post but his projectiles behave very differently to other more conventional dbd projectiles (like the huntress hatchets for instance). The blades barely have any weight and and travel in an almost perfect horizontal line, meaning you can't arc shots to go across the map(avoiding all the clutter) to hit people. Some may counter "but the projectiles are small" to that I say, yes they are small but realistically how many times per match are you going to be able to use that small size to injure people through a small gap or hole.
Someone will argue that trickster is stronger now, Someone was found with 28 trickster lacerations in the Moon Market, are these related? Not in the slightest I just wanted to connect those things in your mind. Trickster in his current state is only really good in the hands of experienced trickster players. More average or beginner players who aren't hyperaware of every gap, hole and every angle you can make trickster knifes go through small spaced and make seemingly impossible shots connect, will struggle with him to the point that they make seem impossible to play in the current state of the game.
I would sum up the trickster "rework" essentially as a revert to how how he was before he was 4.6, his fun add ons are nerfed or gone, and minimal buffs to keep him as weak as possible. Oh yea he gos a flashy UI now blow the confetti MP4(in all seriousness the combo system is good, but he can't remain 4.4 with all the other stuff weighing him down)
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@ThatRyanB said:
I wanted to pop back in to this thread to thank you all for the great back-and-forth. There's a lot of feedback here that we're working through to bring to the team. It's no secret that The Trickster has a high skill floor that relies quite heavily on the risk-reward per knife, and that their perceived strength can vary map-to-map. These are things we're following both through feedback and game data, and will continue following over time, understanding the learning curve.
All that to say, the shift to 4.4 m/s was done to focus on The Trickster's identity as a projectile Killer, prioritizing skillful knife throwing over M1 attacks in-chase. I hear the frustration about this that some folks are sharing, as well as the comments from folks who feel it feels good, and want to assure you we'll continue to watch how these impressions evolve.
Who is the insane person on the dev team who keeps insisting on trickster being 4.4?
The people who are advocating for the 4.6 trickster have provided evidence about how woefully lacking trickster is compared to other ranged killers(like the huntress for example), he doesn't have the "range" to be the ranged killer in most games thanks to all the trash you have put on all the maps. Someone said earlier that "you should go for skilled long range shots" I would like to ask "where?" I can barely see people for a microsecond in the distance before they reach another pile of clutter that blocks line of sight.
Now I would like to propose a potentially controversial idea that would make all trickster players both new(er) and old happy…
Make him 4.6 with 6 knives to injure.
Wait, wait, wait, I can already see people complaining and saying"It'S tOo StRoNg!" but let me explain my reasoning first.
- Trickster is a ranged killer who has to hit MULTIPLE knives to just take a health state.
- His knifes travel in a straight line and don't really arc or drop so he can't realistically go for long range shots and cross map shots are essentially impossible. Walls and distance are his primary counter and most survivors already pre run so being 4.4 is even more punishing than normal.
- He doesn't have any sort of map traversal aside from running and praying you make it in time before that sable behind a wall pops the last generator.
- Survivors also have SO MUCH going their way in this game, longer hook timers, longer unhook endurance, shorter generator times, and busted perks a la the new and improved fast track making the generators fly.
If you want to say that everyone would run this I am going to shoot that down that idea right now. At most the majority of players would play this for a week maybe two and then everyone will go back to playing Blight, Nurse, Dracula ,and Ghoul(let's also not forget that Blight was buffed last patch because they fixed some of his bugs). If this proposal is actually put into the game then the people who actually like and played trickster before and after the first rework will both get what they want. If people are still going to claim it's too strong, no its really not, because look at the other top tier killers they are leagues above trickster and can win games significantly more easily then him, you really think that trickster even with these changes proposed will be as much of a threat as the Nurse and the Blight? Seriously? At least the trickster has counterplay, the blight just rushes and down you in record time, and the nurse just teleports right behind you and injures you. Pallets, walls, windows, and distance mean the square root of nothing to them, trickster still has to respect these things and play around them.
Heck a YouTuber/streamer managed to do just that, they made a 4.6 trickster that needed to hit 6 blades to injure and IT WAS BALANCED. If I manage to find the video I'll link it later.
Unless you make his knives pierce through terrain(this is a joke don't actually do this) 4.4 will always be bad on him. Of course you would have to adjust the other numbers in his kit if you do a 4.6 / 6 knives trickster but it is doable and would make him much more approachable and enjoyable for all players.
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@ShanoaLegendaryPlz said:
https://account.bhvr.com/twitch/dbd
I managed to fix the same issue i had on steam during the stranger things drops from this link^ had to claim them manually there for some reason then it finally worked heres the whole comment i followed for it to work:
This is what worked for me, I just copy the helpful answer from the Support Email I wrote:
We understand your worry about not seeing the drops in your inventory after claiming them on Twitch, and to help you receive them, please follow these steps:
- Go through all the steps from our page (even if you have done this recently)
:Twitch Drops flow page- Make sure to select the platform where you play the game. If you cannot select the correct platform, try using a different browser or the incognito mode.
- If you’re trying to select PlayStation or Xbox and a spinner shows up after selecting the platform:
- Go to the Connection tab in your BHVR account.
- Under the platform you’re trying to select, click on REFRESH.
- A new window will open for you to sign in with your platform account.
- Once it’s done, go through the Twitch Drops flow page again.
- When available, don’t forget to click on the CLAIM YOUR REWARDS at the top of the page once you complete the steps.
- After you complete the steps from our Twitch Drops page, re-login to your BHVR account
using the Twitch account on the “Log in with a social account”option. - Launch the game and confirm if the drops were received.
I did the steps under 1 before, but it was not successful, but login into the BHVR Account with my Twitch Account fixed it for me.
I want to mention that this is the first time I had to do it, before it worked perfectly fine by just having the accounts linked and claiming the Drops on Twitch.
Thank You!
- Go through all the steps from our page (even if you have done this recently)
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@Mandy said:
If you have tried to reconnect everything on the BHVR account and claimed the rewards there, please contact our player support who can help you.
I just disconnected and reconnected my twitch and BHVR accounts(which I what I think you ment with "reconnect everything on the BHVR account" if not could you please point me in the right direction?) I also don't really know how to contact player support.
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@ThatRyanB said:
One thing I'd love to dig into more here is the discussion around The Trickster's movement speed, as I think the "why" is an important piece of this.
Is there anything specific you've encountered while playing The Trickster that makes the 4.4 m/s speed feel frustrating?
I personally believe that trickster should be 4.6 for a myriad of reasons.
Firstly the pros and cons from what I have observed.
Pros:
The combo system is an amazing addition as it rewards accurate shots
The Knives are very small so you can make some rather cheeky shots through small spaces(which your combo system rewards and is a fantastic addition)
The knives are also fast and travel around 55 m/s I believe.
Only 6 knives to injure is very deadly and feels very nice as the killer, and many felt that 8 knives was too many and took too long to injure(I agree with that as well).
Cons:
The time to pull out and put away knives might not seem to bad but as time goes on it does add up, and killer role is essential a time management game. His knifes are in a similar situation as missing knives really adds up and is very punishing for him.
His power that needs to land multiple times to injure, he slows down when he pulls out his knives, and slows down even more the more knives he throws.
His projectiles barely have any weight and travel almost perfectly horizontal which has several downsides. Like not being able to hit people over long range effectively, he can't huntress yeet a few knives across the entire map, and many strangely large hitboxes in the game that can make it as if a throw never happened.
I have mixed opinions on the 44 meter lullaby especially for the trickster. like I said above his shots are really limited in being only horizontal, and in addition to being slower then normal, the lullaby is essentially a big sign for survivors to start pre running which is really punishing for him.
Survivors are also far from defenseless walls, trash placed around the map, endurance, exhaustion perks, genrushing, body blocking, and pre running all counter his power.
Trickster in the hands of a good player who has invested a lot of time into learning his kit can absolutely shred survivors and snowball games if survivors mess up and group together. However in his current state only said good players can play him effectively. He is way harder in many aspects that discourages people other than the trickster masters from playing him.
People may argue trickster with 4.6 is too strong, in response I would like to introduce them to a little killer named the blight a 4.6 killer with a dash ability that can help him travel across great distances very quickly, and those pesky survivor speed perks and endurance mean nothing to him. Comparing these two is like comparing the lethality of a coughing baby to a hydrogen bomb. Even comparing the trickster to other ranged killers shows how lacking he is;
The Huntress vs Trickster: The lethal range of a huntress is defined by the huntress player, as they can launch projectiles across the entire map and even down you from across the map if they are skilled enough.
The Deathslinger vs Trickster: Their projectiles are very similar in terms of size and they can both shoot through small gaps. however deathslinger has a few advantages, like being able to injure people MUCH more easily as he only needs to land one shot compared to tricksters 6 to take a health state from healthy and he doesn't suffer from the malady that is a 44 meter lullaby(which allows him to both approach survivors more easily without them being alerted to his presence earlier and he can actually utilize undetectable effectively unlike a certain KPOP serial killer).
The First vs Trickster: The First's power goes through walls and he has an amazing traversal ability and trickster has none of the above.
The Artist vs Trickster: Her power is both fast, can go through walls, and can even damage if the survivor is close enough and there is nothing in the way of the bird. again trickster has none of that. She is also 4.6 speed.
The Plague vs Trickster: The plague has an easier time hitting people and there are several techs you can do with her to arc shots and manipulate the projectile speed. Trickster doesn't have that. Also moves at 4.6.
The Animatronic vs Trickster: He has both a traversal power, a stealth power, and a ranged power all in one kit. Trickster can't stealth, and he can't travel across the map efficiently either especially now.
Oh yes I nearly forgot trickster has to reload, he has to reload a lot with this rework, the only other killer that has to reload from lockers is the huntress I think all other ranged killers have powers that recharge over time or like the deathsligner who can reload whenever he wants.
Trickster has numerous aspects of his kit that hinder his speed and make him feel surprisingly clunky at the same time. When this is combined with the 4.4 movement speed he feels both supremely slow, bad, and gets completely steamrolled by any slightly competent survivor who can pre run and god forbid you meet a group of people on comms. I will say that Trickster very much embodies the phrase "give him an inch, and he will take a mile" as against people who keep making mistakes he will dominate and streamroll them, but against actually capable survivors you are surprisingly weak and have to fight so, so much harder then other ranged killers to injure people. 4.6 actually allows you to compete with good survivors and would make all the clunky slowdown at least tolerable and he could actually pressure the map effectively.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4064604#Comment_4064604
Whether Trickster should be 4.4 or 4.6 is another topic on its own. But regardless of what the base speed of the killer is, you can't have an addon (or a perk for that matter) that increases your movement speed as frequently as this did without some sort of drawback. It was his strongest addon by far and there would've been no reason to ever take it off.
Cut Thru U Single
When reaching a new Style Rank, adds a stackable
1% Hastebonus. All stacks last until Style Rank decreases by any means.It literally has a drawback "All stacks last until Style Rank decreases by any means", and besides people can easily make generational distance on the trickster by simply pre running even with the add on, as he is SLOW now and was SLOW in the PTB when this add on existed. If he were 115 I wouldn't really care about the rest of the nerfs but everything combined is just too much.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
The PTB version of Cut Thru U Single was really just a permanent haste effect for 80% of the match. It was unhealthy much for the same reason as old MFT and it couldn't go live in that state
I'm sorry but I'm confused, are we talking about the same killer here?
Trickster is already slower than other killers with a ranged power that needs to land multiple times and he slows down the more he throws. He can't hit people over long range effectively, his shots don't really arc so he can't huntress yeet a few knives across the entire map, admittedly he can shoot through small gaps but there are just as many if not more strangely large hitboxes in the game that can just make it as if the throw never happened. Let's also not forget walls, trash, endurance, exhaustion perks, genrushing, body blocking, and more.
Do I need to pull out a chalkboard or something to get my point across?
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I am completely baffled by your balancing team's decisions concerning the trickster, the massive nerf to tricksters movement speed is bad enough, but as I read the patch notes I felt like I was having a stroke.
For those who don't know, the only add on that made the movement speed nerf on the PTB not so bad was the Cut Thru U add on which had this effect:
- Cut Thru U Single (PTB Rework)
- When reaching a new Style Rank, adds a stackable 1% Haste bonus. All stacks last until Style Rank decreases by any means.
NOW it's this:
- Cut Thru U Single (New and Worse "Rework")
- When reaching A-Rank, Survivors within 32 meters are revealed with Killer Instinct for 4.4 seconds.
Why would you remove the only option that makes his 'moving through waist high water' speed nerf somewhat tolerable? I could understand nerfing it if you gave back his old movement speed BUT YOU DIDN'T. So look into my cold and lifeless eyes and explain why you felt it was necessary to take away his only good add on in this nerf disguised as a "rework".
Then there are all the other nerfs, like the crucifixion of the tricksters holy trinity add ons(the only fun ones), the lowered ammo, the removal of the old bloody boa(and the pathetic effects of the "new" add ons), and as I am looking through the new patch notes I am not seeing any mention of the movement speed buff that trickster received in S-Rank in the PTB(it allowed trickster to go from 4.4 to 4.6 temporarily) so I am wondering if they removed it(not like it mattered as you are still super slow at the start of the game and you don't even get the buff that long realistically).
Also can I just talk about the buffed Fast Track perk real quick? This will ruin your game BHVR I don't even know how your balancing team let this monster escape the PTB but you have to send this perk to the Halloween void immediately.
I said in a different conversation a little while ago that I won't be playing trickster nearly as much if this rework comes to live servers(this is coming from a person who has trickster as their second most played killer). I take back that statement, I don't think I will play him at all with this new update.
I liked the trickster(especially after his Chucky chapter rework) because he was a sort of middle ground between the traditional ranged killer and an M1 killer, as despite having a weaker ranged option compared to other ranged killers he moves faster then said ranged killers and could pressure the map better(plus the higher speed just feels better, and 4.4 sucks on trickster more then most because he needs to hit people multiple times and the survivors are far from defenseless).
- Cut Thru U Single (PTB Rework)
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@OrangeBear said:
I definitely agree with you about the 2nd design. It looked way too much like a victim, not imposing like how i've been imagining the killer to be. The one that has won, the first, i think is pretty decent overall.
I liked the flail weapon, a bit sad it didn't win. I like the one that won over the hammer, though.
I think judgment is okay, doesn't really stand out a whole lot but it will probably suit their gameplay well.
I love the survivor design so far. I was a bit worried about how the accessory and outfit designs were gonna end up looking like together but i think the combo that has won is great.I was on team flail as well, let's commiserate the loss of the cool weapon.
Through my worry with the busy design and how large the staff appears to be in the art still stands.
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@OrangeBear said:
Turns out they put the wrong killer design in their first tweet. It's the first design that won/the one with moth looking wings.
They did, I have to correct my post!
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@dbd900bach said:
I play on console, and while I am quite rusty, decided to pick up Trickster again. Thankfully the first few games have been good, so I'm not discouraged to continue
Looking at the update, the biggest issue is the slowdown. Everything else I love, but that slowdown while throwing knives is really punishing. Then he's slowed even more afterwards if he throws I think 12 consecutive knives. I understand at the very least why because the laceration meter was decreased which increases his lethality. Ergo, the more lethal Trickster is, the more justified slowing him down is. However, he's a bit too slowed down, especially as a 4.4 killer.
It doesn't feel good at all to only approach a tiny bit, and the survivors are already running to the other side of the map, I.e holding W. The new map emphasizes that weakness a lot.
Rather than arguing if he should return to 4.6 though, I think it would be better to remove his lullaby. It restricts his ability to use undetectable perks, but if he could freely use them, Trickster could get closer and actively reduce his weakness to holding W. It would also let him move more freely and actually catch survivors off guard, as well as cause confusion.
Thats truly the only changes he needs. One or the other, or both. Then he would be in a better spot.
hey wanna know a fun fact of this "rework" during S-rank your terror radius becomes massive, your lullaby is gone, and you move at 4.6, the downside? You glow neon pink and yellow people will see you coming three kilometers away. So the one time where you could take advantage of stealth perks you really can't against survivors with eyes(ie literally everyone). Also I don't know if I can confirm this but I think that the devs have made tricksters breathing and panting sounds louder as I feel that I can hear him much more easily even while he is a little ways away.
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@shalo said:
"We spoke with many trickster mains regarding the 4.4m/s and it was one of their biggest requests to get that speed back down."
Any of those Trickster mains willing to explain their reasoning?
"Are the Trickster players in the room with us?"
In all seriousness I am wondering that myself, as trickster is possibly the wort of the ranged killers he needs his 4.6 speed to actually be able to keep up with the pace game, 4.4 is a death sentence in the time management game that is the killer role.
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We are going through the PTB honeymoon phase, we are entranced by the jangling keys that is the combo system and not noticing the massive iceberg heading our way(the nerfs).
While all the combo stuff is fun(and it encourages more skillful plays), and the lowered laceration is nice, the 4.4 speed is the dealbreaker.
Trickster has an odd kit he is possible the best ranged killer for survivors to go against(on paper, we all know that survivors hate trickster) as he has to hit you multiple times and survivors are far from defenseless, heck some people are skilled enough to dead hard at the last trickster knife(then there is also the fact that laceration decays after a while). Then there are his projectiles, which travel almost completely horizontally so you can't trick shot or hit a target over a long distance effectively.
So I would define his niche as this(based on the live version), a ranged killer that is weaker then other ranged killers, however he is faster then said killers and is a sort of middle ground between the classic M1 killer and a ranged killer(so he can create map pressure and his movement feel nice, while also having a ranged threat). This is what I liked about him, he presented options you could M1 a survivor without worrying that the survivor would make too much distance. if the PTB version goes to live not only will that option be gone but he will be in a considerably worse state, his holy trinity of fun add ons are either gone or nerfed to be not as fun, S-Rank the mode where you get 4.6 back makes his terror radius a massive 44 meters and the trickster glows neon pink and yellow so you cannot use stealth perks on that mode as any person with eyes will see you coming three kilometers away.
Trickster is the killer with my second highest play time, I had a lot of fun with him when he was 4.6 but if there are no serious changes(involving reverting the base movement speed to 4.6 for starters) I don't think I will play him nearly as much, please BHVR keep his movement speed as 4.6.
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@JohnNemesisMan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4059414#Comment_4059414
Its going to give him the same issue as Oni where counterplay basically becomes a skill check of the survivor. You're much safer if you run away and force him to waste time on you rather than trying to loop him and potentially buffing him if you do get hit, which leads to the most boring gameplay on both sides of just Shift W-ing away and not risking him leveling up.
Except its going to be much easier to run away from him because he's 4.4m/s, with some maps being full of cover and clutter which will make his long ranged addon useless, and will be even slower if he has to aim while chasing. Truly the rework of all time.I just re-read the patch notes and it just keeps getting worse the more I look, his ammo was lowered to the lowest its ever been(my favorite add-on the bloody boa is changed), his movement speed while in the throw state is bad and it gets so much worse the more you throw so you will never catch up to people as the killer where you need line of sight, what were the devs thinking of when they came up with the numbers for this rework.
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@JohnNemesisMan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4059322#Comment_4059322
They give you bonuses for hitting M1 hits, how is he going to be chasing down survivors for that when his speed is 4.4m/s? There's plenty of loops on various other maps where you can take cover and keep distance at the same time without being in danger of a 4.4m/s M1. Henry can ignore obstacles entirely with his ranged attack and has a map traversal power, both which Trickster lacks. I don't see what murder fantasy you're talking about when he's hindered for having a ranged power where he must chase down a survivor to hit them multiple times to get value out of.
You are right, I didn’t even think of the fact that Henry can ignore walls AND has map traversal (meanwhile anyone who plays trickster has to pray people don’t use any sort of terrain as cover) Also the bonus for M1hits, I get why they added it in, but at the same time why? the lowered movement speed essentially forces you to be a ranged killer because you can’t catch up. One more thing I am totally baffled by is the fact they lock his 4.6 moment speed behind S rank(which you can only realistically get when in chase with someone) so at the start of the game when it’s really important he is at his nerfed speed, then he get his s rank for maybe a few second while in chase, and then people will use main event to down people and then you are slow again. So we essentially have no speed increase at all, if anyone claims that the reload speed is adequate compensation to lock his movement speed behind a rank, just look at Iron Maiden + his reload speed add on they provide a significantly better effect then the base combo reload bonus.
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@Wezqu said:
Just pointing out that its still on PTB so anything can change still so celebrating now is little bit too early.
Fair point, I’ll still hold out hope they buff the moment speed in any case.
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This is not something to be celebrating(the 110 movement speed). The trouble with the trickster is despite being a ranged killer he has to hit people multiple times to get value, he can’t arc shots like huntress can(unless he uses the bounce add on to ricochet off of surfaces), survivors have the terrain to block shots, he has a smaller ammo pool now, exhaustion perks exist, and body blocking and endurance exists. While the decrease to the laceration meter is appreciated the nerf to the base moment speed in this generator economy means he has a much harder time finding chasing and downing survivors before all the gens are done. His multi hit nature seems like a good compromise to have the 115 moment speed, as he just isn’t good enough to keep up with the game otherwise.
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@ShanoaLegendaryPlz said:
As far as ive seen for progress towards a rework, they scrapped the piloted drone idea, put in the slight buff and terrible rework to her stealth activation, and said we will see how this goes for now and if the feedback still wants a rework, they might consider it, as it sounds like they want to stop working on her as its taking too many resources to keep going back to try and fix her in a way that makes everyone happy. Have not heard if the new buff is final or the rework is still going to happen.
Thank you for commenting this like I said above I have been very busy and haven’t been able to pay much attention to DBD. It does saddens me that they are not considering the drone pilot idea anymore, but they cannot just leave this pathetic shell of a power as her power, the fact they are considering this is actually insulting for all the people who bought the chapter or play her. if they leave her as is and claim they won’t rework her I still see them reworking her at some point in the future because this power is so pathetic it makes mid tier killers look like top killers. The drone crash power I feel would have been very good and healthy for the game overall, in my opinion they should reconsider it.
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One more skin for that list is a red recolor of the plague skin(it came out in the ghostface rift I believe)
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@wolba321 said:
I think they actually said that it will come to the store at some point but it never did
Well I suppose they brought back that frozen blight cosmetic, so maybe they are staggering the release windows of the prime cosmetics? They should have just released everything(the artist outfits, the golden skull mask, that one Jane Romero outfit, and more) when they released that blight cosmetic imo.
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@Shroompy said:
Pretty much every value in this game is additive and not multiplicative, so if youre running M&A with max stacks you should end up with a 75% reduction.
Even on its own I cannot see how this is a nerf, a side grade at the very least. The only negative I can really see is the lost of 10% Haste, but a permanent reduction of your TR is being HEAVILY slept on compared to 18 seconds of Undetectable.
The killers who benefit the most from Furtive currently are high mobility due to consistency. They can actually make use of the Undetectable and have a better chance of catching somebody off guard. 20m is not a lot of distance/heads up for killers like Blight, Kaneki or Billy. Hell, Nurse still has a 32m radius and with Furtive she can literally be on top of you with no warning at all times.
Now other killers can actually make use of this. Permanent 16m TR Slinger? 12m Spirit? These are nothing to scoff at. Im honestly getting flashbacks to when Franklins was initially reworked from having items disappear to having items slowly deplete while on the ground. The initial reaction was it being a nerf, but it didnt take long to realize it was a buff.
Thank your for answering! I am mostly upset about the speed boost being removed, I really liked running it with FTTE as the speed boost and obsession roulette were really fun when paired up. But now I am trying to think of a funny stealth build that I can use and just wanted to conform the mechanics of the new version of furtive chase, and from what I understand they do stack.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4022031#Comment_4022031
the spreadsheet developers can easily over buff this mechanic making the game into a nightmare for killers who don't want to slug but have to when they go against a competent SWF.
Then it will again get nerfed. Fog vials made it out of the ptb and were obliterated less than two weeks later, and for pretty ridiculous reasons. We're probably about to see the pallet density change get nerfed too. They won't hesitate to destroy and dismantle at any point.
But I'm super tired of these SWAT teams being the permanent example of all problems. They're not the majority, and if they can use the mechanics to win, then they deserve their win. It's okay if your opponenet wins sometimes.
Well, that a really intersting and odd example but I know what the term means. I'm saying it doesn't apply to things that have yet to pass.
Oh yes the pallet change will definitely be reverted I have no doubt about that(ideally they should tie pallet density to killer strength, like blights, nurses, and krasue's get more pallets then the weaker killers, they did demonstrate that they had the ability to change the rewards that the krasue and blight get for unique hooks, but this idea is just a pipe dream). As for the Navy SEALS, they themselves are not necessarily the problem (as all survivors can equip a strong build and gain game sense the more they play) its the coordination and communication between them that is the real issue in my opinion, as if they were unable to communicate and coordinate their actions I don't think they would be as oppressive as they can be now. If they added some sort of communication feature for solo q they could probably balance the game a lot better, like a little wheel you can pull up with different messages that relate to the game objectives or actions that the team should do like "look for totems", "fix generators" and other simple messages that get the point across.
I do agree its ok to lose, I have had my fair share of losses as both survivor and killer and losing against good survivors or killers who outplay me allows me to learn from my mistakes and improve as both roles.
Its frustrating to me that they spend time and effort on a project but it ends up being for naught (the twins rework, and the old anti slug mechanic) and the potential for failure with this new reworked mechanic is high in my opinion. I see your point with the fact that these mechanics haven't arrived yet, and that they are probably still being looked at and adjusted last minute, but these big changes can negatively impact the game if they aren't balanced correctly make no mistake.
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@[Deleted User] said:
I really agree with you on the killer counterplay. The best designed killers are the ones that involve some kind of aim or mechanical skill. Look at the most fun killers to play as and against. IDK all the stats but I think wesker is top 5. He requires good aim and mechanical skill but his power is also not trash. Every player feels like they can perform better on him because his power has freedom on how to use it. Until you get to a certain level where he falls off a cliff. But that’s rare.
Huntress is one of the best designed killers because she needs to aim. There’s no new mechanic to counter it. It’s just dodging and looping well, and the infinite range and high skill ceiling of huntress makes both the survivor and the killer feel like they always can improve. She’s actually kinda weak but i think still popular, correct me if im wrong. Similar case with spirit even though she doesn’t aim and even ruins looping. Some may not like to play against spirit but her power is genuinely one of the best designed imho. I think the reason spirit isnt more popular is because of the huge cooldown on the power and how punishing she is.
when they start to put in counterplay as new mechanic usually outside of chase, thats when killers get unpopular.Xenomorph, twins, trapper, etc. These killers generally feel like they dont have a very high mechanical skill ceiling on them and it’s a matter of game sense mostly.
It’s not wirh every killer though. For example the unknown’s teleports are a new thing but they’re not actually boring because the main power is directly related to chases and aiming well. He’s just less popular because he’s very punishing similar to the artistBasically i believe both survivors and killers want killer counterplay to be directly related to chases, survivor movement, looping, but not new boring stuff like « do this to disable the power »
I would like to add on that the unknowns teleport counter play is fun, cool, and FAST. So even though it is out of chase the speed and creepy camera angle make up for having to go out of your way to get rid of it(and isn't there a tech where an unknown can delay the copy to ensure it spawns in a good spot?). Your points on Huntress and Wesker are spot on, I could argue with you in spirit however as I am partially deaf in one ear and others who have a hard time hearing can't really counter her effectively. All your other point are good in my opinion.
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@cogsturning said:
You think 2 minutes on the ground is a sledgehammer? Is the sledgeghammer made of foam and makes a squeaky noise when you hit something with it? Don't slug three or four people at once and you'll be okay.
And how can it sound good on paper but be rubbish in reality when the reality has yet to come?
I was specifically thinking about the first anti slug attempt on the previous PTB and then applied that experience to the upcoming PTB, a lot can still change in that time so the system might be ok, in theory the 33% speed boost to the pick up meter should be ok against aggressive slugging killers. But if it underperforms(and there is a chance that it might do that), the spreadsheet developers can easily over buff this mechanic making the game into a nightmare for killers who don't want to slug but have to when they go against a competent SWF. That is why I said above that the changes have the POSSIBILITY of negatively affecting the game, not that it WILL negatively affect the game. I truly hope that this mechanic works and makes the game better but as the saying goes "hope for the best, expect the worst".
As for how something can sound good on paper but not in reality let me provide you an analogy, in the USA in the early 1900s they introduced mosquito fish to bodies of fresh water to lower the mosquito population and stop the spread of disease. However these fish had unforeseen effects on the other aquatic creatures, specifically predation on native species like small fish, invertebrates, and amphibian tadpoles, outcompetition for food, and the disruption of food webs. They are now considered invasive, pose a high ecological risk, and sometimes cause economic damage to native fisheries. That is how an idea can sound good on paper but have negative effects in reality. I know this example is a bit extreme but I believe it proves the point I am trying to make about unforeseen consequences.
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@HexHerbz said:
I got timed out in last nights community stream because I was gobsmacked on what I was hearing and I said 'more evidence you guys don't play your own game, I think it's unprofessional' That's all I said. They silenced me because I though everything they were planning on doing I thought was unprofessional. I wouldn't class that as an attack, which obviously they thought it was. but everyone screaming for shirtless characters is way more important right ? I'll never have an opinion regarding the game anywhere again. It's best like that. You either get attacked by the community or silenced my the devs. It really isn't worth it. They cherry pick passion they want for the game.
I got banned for saying "this is incredibly stupid, do you understand what you are doing?" was this mean? Yes. Is it true that these devs are making very unorthodox decisions that can have adverse effects on the games long term health if it isn't balanced with the precision of a brain surgeon? Also yes. Please not that I am still banned at this moment in time.
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I personally really like the idea, the chess merchant can’t really seem to down people from far away which eliminates the bleed out issue, the drone charge idea sounds very fun, the emp dart it just the funny part of the unknowns power. However I feel that the global detection should also detect survivors performing actions, like gens, chests, etc because they are technically “moving”. that way survivors have to either crouch walk somewhere or stand still doing nothing during the duration or risk giving her info on high priority targets(however the duration of the GDP should remain very short of this does happen, maybe 5 seconds of GDP and if you are detected you are revealed a little longer let’s say 10 seconds after you are last detected you will be revealed on her radar? I don’t know)
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Does anyone know how to get this charm?
To give some context, I bought the entire DLC in October 2022. I only recently found out about the charm and thought that it was strange that I hadn’t received it already. I play on the switch(is this important?). Contacted BHVR support and they refused to help me. I also just came back from a two week vacation and when I returned home I didn’t see the special video or get the charm. Please any advice is greatly appreciated.